From the UK. I think the level system is fairly accurate and certainly balances out over time. Yes you can lose points for not beating someone much weaker by a large enough margin, but likewise it rewards players who can perform better than expected against a more advanced player. I also love the truth in the system, i.e., that there really are levels to squash. For example, you can click on a player who you think is really good, and see that they get smashed by another player, who in turn gets smashed by an ever better player! The key is to play competitive games regularly. If you dip in and out, then you could end up with a score that is not reflective of your true level. You need to play internal box leagues, team squash, go to tournaments, etc. to get as many logged results as possible. That way the odd anomaly result is exactly that, just an anomaly, and does not make too much of an impact to your overall level
Yep don't get me wrong I'm super excited about Squashlevels because I do think it'll be much more accurate over time than our previous system. The questions I highlighted in the OP are what some of the biggest gripes seem to be from the wider NZ squash community!
This blog does well in explaining some of the finer details on how points are calculated for each match.
https://blog.squashlevels.com/the-squashlevels-algorithm/
Two examples that are a failure of the system (seen in UK):
- The old guy under-ranked: -900 for his opponent, a 6700 player, in a single match
- The new guy from another country, A-level in his country. Nearly no matches encoded in squashlevels (some box matches that he did not even play and matches from >8 years ago), ~3000 in squashlevels, crush everybody around ~4000. Nice chap, have fun 11-8 in most games but getting bored. Looking for better matches. Discover squashlevels, and realize that there is no assimilation procedure in the county/UK (or at least that nobody around him known it), crush his next opponent 11-1/2/4 = +10% at once in a single match (-5% for his opponent), while it was 0-2% for the other matches. He just wants to play second or first player in the fixtures to get better matches. Crushing weaker players was never the plan.
Isn't that one of Squashlevels' main strengths though, that someone will be able to find their true level much more quickly? Its an aspect I'm definitely looking forward to with the juniors moving rapidly up the ranks! 😅
Under our previous system, it was much slower to gain and lose points so if you were coming back from injury, a rapidly improving junior, coming back from time off, it would take forever to get to your true level.
If a A-level guy, who plays squash for >17 year in an other country starts, at D-level and still only C-level/low B-level, not losing a single match after 4 month there, I would certainly not call it a strength. He should be at his level immediately by assimilation.
For young players, climbing fast, there should be also an "assimilation".
Not sure about other clubs but at ours new players to the club with no grading have to play a few games against various levels before the club captain assigns a reasonable level. No one should start at D just for being new unless they're new to the sport.
None of your experiences have been true as far as I can see in the UK.
If anything it's the opposite, I would say tournaments that guarantee Squash Levels incorporation are more popular than those that don't sync. Players want to play and impact their level.
Most 'top players' don't give a shit about squash levels, so it doesn't impact their participation.
In terms of people smashing others, the algorithm accounts for 'playing down' so as long as the player wins 3-0 the score will barely register as a negative for the better player.
The whole system is a net positive for squash and can help people participate. It should get more beginners hooked too, as they can see their level improve and set targets.
I'm in AUS so we use SportyHQ.
My mate purposefully skips competitive fixtures nights if he knows he is playing someone significantly below him.
He does not want to lose/risk his points, thus end up playing a lower position in the team and end up playing worse players. I just think its par for the course, sometimes you play UP and sometimes you play down. You NEED to win when you play down and hope you have what it takes to win when you play UP.
So essentially, he never goes down on points because he doesn't play matches where he could lose them. He cherry picks his matches. As you can imagine, he is slowly drifting higher and higher even though his win percentage is quite low.
I can totally imagine some of the scenarios you played out regarding Squash Levels magnifiying this behaviour. THere are absolutely people out there that care WAY TO MUCH about amateur squash ranking points.
I know I personally got way to wrapped up in the squash ranking and was checking where I was, getting upset at losing to lower players ect. Now i refuse to check at all, I haven't looked at my ranking in 2 years and my performance anxiety has decreased, leading to an increase in performance and ranking over the long term.
SportyHQ has insane points inflation. You can gain at most 30 points in a match, or lose 10 at most. So over time everyone is slowly going up. Then you have characters like your mate, who are so precious about their points.
SquashLevels is a much better system because it reflects reality better. Still far from perfect.
I lost a whole grade (from NZ) but like all systems, it's the medium term results which indicate where you are actually at. I'm all for a unified system so all squash players world wide use the name system, that way I can know exactly how far till I can beat Paul Coll! 🤣
I'm a big fan. I find it to be incredibly accurate, and very motivating. No issues in comparing men vs women - statistically a 2,000 player is just that, regardless of age / gender. It might help to have premium access, as you get a detailed explanation of the adjustments being made after each match.
Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never heard of someone flaking on a match because of the impact on their squashlevels!
We have been using SportyHQ here in South Africa and recently had a 'merge' with Squash Levels where you can see your ranking on both. It's nice to see players who you know overseas and their rankings. I think that they are not quite equal yet - (They are both not used yet here to rank top players 2nd div and above because it's not accurate enough) But the more you play the more accurate it will be. My sense is that the Squashlevels algo is more accurate.
Australian. We have been using Sportyhq with results being copied over to SquashLevels. Sportyhq is on the way out and SquashLevels is to be the rating system going forward. I don't know anyone that has made sure they smash a lower level opponent to maintain their level, but we do see points being lost by the higher level opponent because they won 11-8, 11-7, 11-9 instead of being merciless and winning 11-4, 11-2, 11-3.
In my opinion there is still a way to go before it is realistic. I guess what it does do well is adjusting the level of players who are rapidly improving.
Only issue I’ve seen is that it can be a bit demotivating when you are facing someone significantly better (3,800 v 13,500) and you know they will want to maintain their level.
From the UK. I think the level system is fairly accurate and certainly balances out over time. Yes you can lose points for not beating someone much weaker by a large enough margin, but likewise it rewards players who can perform better than expected against a more advanced player. I also love the truth in the system, i.e., that there really are levels to squash. For example, you can click on a player who you think is really good, and see that they get smashed by another player, who in turn gets smashed by an ever better player! The key is to play competitive games regularly. If you dip in and out, then you could end up with a score that is not reflective of your true level. You need to play internal box leagues, team squash, go to tournaments, etc. to get as many logged results as possible. That way the odd anomaly result is exactly that, just an anomaly, and does not make too much of an impact to your overall level
Yep don't get me wrong I'm super excited about Squashlevels because I do think it'll be much more accurate over time than our previous system. The questions I highlighted in the OP are what some of the biggest gripes seem to be from the wider NZ squash community!
This blog does well in explaining some of the finer details on how points are calculated for each match. https://blog.squashlevels.com/the-squashlevels-algorithm/
Yep have read that so was interested to find out how the 'theory' translates into the 'real world'
Two examples that are a failure of the system (seen in UK): - The old guy under-ranked: -900 for his opponent, a 6700 player, in a single match - The new guy from another country, A-level in his country. Nearly no matches encoded in squashlevels (some box matches that he did not even play and matches from >8 years ago), ~3000 in squashlevels, crush everybody around ~4000. Nice chap, have fun 11-8 in most games but getting bored. Looking for better matches. Discover squashlevels, and realize that there is no assimilation procedure in the county/UK (or at least that nobody around him known it), crush his next opponent 11-1/2/4 = +10% at once in a single match (-5% for his opponent), while it was 0-2% for the other matches. He just wants to play second or first player in the fixtures to get better matches. Crushing weaker players was never the plan.
Isn't that one of Squashlevels' main strengths though, that someone will be able to find their true level much more quickly? Its an aspect I'm definitely looking forward to with the juniors moving rapidly up the ranks! 😅 Under our previous system, it was much slower to gain and lose points so if you were coming back from injury, a rapidly improving junior, coming back from time off, it would take forever to get to your true level.
If a A-level guy, who plays squash for >17 year in an other country starts, at D-level and still only C-level/low B-level, not losing a single match after 4 month there, I would certainly not call it a strength. He should be at his level immediately by assimilation. For young players, climbing fast, there should be also an "assimilation".
Not sure about other clubs but at ours new players to the club with no grading have to play a few games against various levels before the club captain assigns a reasonable level. No one should start at D just for being new unless they're new to the sport.
None of your experiences have been true as far as I can see in the UK. If anything it's the opposite, I would say tournaments that guarantee Squash Levels incorporation are more popular than those that don't sync. Players want to play and impact their level. Most 'top players' don't give a shit about squash levels, so it doesn't impact their participation. In terms of people smashing others, the algorithm accounts for 'playing down' so as long as the player wins 3-0 the score will barely register as a negative for the better player. The whole system is a net positive for squash and can help people participate. It should get more beginners hooked too, as they can see their level improve and set targets.
I'm in AUS so we use SportyHQ. My mate purposefully skips competitive fixtures nights if he knows he is playing someone significantly below him. He does not want to lose/risk his points, thus end up playing a lower position in the team and end up playing worse players. I just think its par for the course, sometimes you play UP and sometimes you play down. You NEED to win when you play down and hope you have what it takes to win when you play UP. So essentially, he never goes down on points because he doesn't play matches where he could lose them. He cherry picks his matches. As you can imagine, he is slowly drifting higher and higher even though his win percentage is quite low. I can totally imagine some of the scenarios you played out regarding Squash Levels magnifiying this behaviour. THere are absolutely people out there that care WAY TO MUCH about amateur squash ranking points. I know I personally got way to wrapped up in the squash ranking and was checking where I was, getting upset at losing to lower players ect. Now i refuse to check at all, I haven't looked at my ranking in 2 years and my performance anxiety has decreased, leading to an increase in performance and ranking over the long term.
What a sad life.
SportyHQ has insane points inflation. You can gain at most 30 points in a match, or lose 10 at most. So over time everyone is slowly going up. Then you have characters like your mate, who are so precious about their points. SquashLevels is a much better system because it reflects reality better. Still far from perfect.
I lost a whole grade (from NZ) but like all systems, it's the medium term results which indicate where you are actually at. I'm all for a unified system so all squash players world wide use the name system, that way I can know exactly how far till I can beat Paul Coll! 🤣
I'm 25 years from turning pro based on current trajectory 🤣
Ive seen you play mate, you more than 25 years off 🤣
That's not what Squashlevels says 😢
Only 25. Lucky you!
I'm a big fan. I find it to be incredibly accurate, and very motivating. No issues in comparing men vs women - statistically a 2,000 player is just that, regardless of age / gender. It might help to have premium access, as you get a detailed explanation of the adjustments being made after each match. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never heard of someone flaking on a match because of the impact on their squashlevels!
We have been using SportyHQ here in South Africa and recently had a 'merge' with Squash Levels where you can see your ranking on both. It's nice to see players who you know overseas and their rankings. I think that they are not quite equal yet - (They are both not used yet here to rank top players 2nd div and above because it's not accurate enough) But the more you play the more accurate it will be. My sense is that the Squashlevels algo is more accurate.
Australian. We have been using Sportyhq with results being copied over to SquashLevels. Sportyhq is on the way out and SquashLevels is to be the rating system going forward. I don't know anyone that has made sure they smash a lower level opponent to maintain their level, but we do see points being lost by the higher level opponent because they won 11-8, 11-7, 11-9 instead of being merciless and winning 11-4, 11-2, 11-3. In my opinion there is still a way to go before it is realistic. I guess what it does do well is adjusting the level of players who are rapidly improving.
Only issue I’ve seen is that it can be a bit demotivating when you are facing someone significantly better (3,800 v 13,500) and you know they will want to maintain their level.