If this is a sincere question:
I have never personally encountered a Uyghur Muslim or whatever Muslim living in China who does not oppose Israel.
Uyghur exiles living in the West have a selection bias and are generally less deeply into Islam than Uyghur community in Xinjiang (excluding the latest generation). Those Islamist type tend to go to Islamic countries.
Uyghur exiles living in the West AND organized receive funding more or less from the US establishment or whatever. Not a good idea to go against your benefactor on issues unrelated to your.
Can you point me to the footage of uyghur being tried behind to pla trucks and torn to shreds by the asphalt ? Cause i can point towards footage of the idf doing that.
Ah yes. Both sides. Point me to the 500 pages of "Gaza" tying people to trucks. Was that before or after they blocked food stuffs from entering Israel? I think maybe they did it in one of their mowing the lawn operations. Perhaps in one of their illegal settlements on the east bank.
Even if that was true. We had more footage of the turmoil during china’s early attempts at establishing quarantine zones before they came clean about covid. There are photos and videos from xinjiang that makes the CPC look suspect in some instances like scanning ID whenever someone wanted to purchase a knife or other forms of police overreach
Yet, zero evidence of the horrors that we are told or mass brutality coordinated by the state against uighur people.
Either the CPC is extremely efficient in committing itself to s genocide whilst doing little domestically to promote it or they’re incompetent.
Its a conspiracy theory,
I mean internet censorship is true and China’s government asserts the right to do so openly. So if you dispute this, you’re disputing China’s own government.
Regarding the atrocities, I don’t take any of them hook line and sinker. The west has its own propaganda arm to be sure. That’s why I just trust China’s own numbers [and documents](https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/read-the-china-cables-documents/) for a far more nuanced picture of ethnic erasure.
Why people deny this is beyond me.
> That’s why I just trust China’s own numbers and documents for a far more nuanced picture of ethnic erasure.
lol those documents have both traditional and simplified chinese. some of them use terminology that is basically taiwanese argot (因特网 for internet instead of 互联网 which is the official mainland way of saying internet).
the secret documents allegedly number in the thousands and yet the corporate media only lets you read a select few they doctored up, how interesting.
>Why people deny this is beyond me.
because i'm chinese, read the language, and its entirely an act designed to fool gullible westerners.
Yeah, anyone who reads Chinese, and is familiar with CPC 'Officialese' can smell bullshit instantly. It's also why direct translations of CPC documents seem so robotic and crazy sounding. It doesn't lend well to translation.
Imagine if a 'secret US government document' was being bandied around and it had words like 'colour', 'lorry' or 'your mum's a sket'.
Ah, but Chinese documents are a special breed. Here's one I grabbed from gov.cn today, I put it through google translate
> The key to China's modernization lies in the modernization of science and technology, and the key to building a socialist modern power lies in scientific and technological self-reliance. Since the 18th CPC National Congress, the CPC Central Committee with Comrade Xi Jinping as the core has insisted on placing scientific and technological innovation at the core of the overall national development, improving the new national system, and accelerating the promotion of high-level scientific and technological self-reliance. my country's science and technology has achieved historic achievements and historic changes, and has entered the ranks of innovative countries. The vast number of scientific and technological workers have devoted themselves to scientific and technological innovation, continuously achieved new results and made new breakthroughs, and provided solid support for China's modernization.
It's not an egregious example, but you can see how clunky it is. Part of my job is translating announcements from my company into English, and cleaning up the 'chinglish'.
The point we're making is that official documents have a style and cadence, and if it's supposedly from America, it would use American English. So if it was using UK words like 'lorry' or 'colour', then it would raise suspicion.
So if a supposed bombshell of a Chinese government document was using 汉字 that wouldn't normally be used in China or Taiwanese Mandarin words for some things, then you can start to question its validity.
> I mean internet censorship is true and China’s government asserts the right to do so openly. So if you dispute this, you’re disputing China’s own government.
With the caveat that its fairly obvious this isn't sincere engagement on your part I'll still bite - No one is disputing censorship. They're stating a pretty obvious and clear eyed fact that there are material realities to what can and cannot be indefinitely censored and provided such examples. Its very foolish to think that if horrors were being committed at even 1/10th the scale we're seeing in the Levant that they wouldn't be plastered all over western media and take up even more oxygen from regular news cycles than they already do.
I’m citing the government’s own paperwork instead of western propaganda, but I’m not being sincere? Ok. We can disagree. Don’t slander the argument. That’s insincere.
The secret documents came to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists via a chain of exiled Uighurs. Their authenticity was confirmed by several leading experts, including James Mulvenon, vice-president of Defense Group Inc, Adrian Zenz, a senior fellow in China studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation in Washington, D.C. and several intelligence sources who cannot be identified.
Are you even trying bro?
It is fake bs. There is no any censhorship. It is just to protect people, everyone still uses Vpn if they really need something. Just as in Russia these little filthy beurocrats needs to be gone though.
Ill stake my credibility on this issue to support your all content in this thread up to now.
Any camp experiencer will sign an agreement to ensure they do not disclose their experiences. Discussing these is technically illegal.
It does seem there is no deliberate intention to mass murder the population but the resulting deaths are real — [not a characteristic of the Uyghur issue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan_hide-and-seek_incident) if you are familiar with the other side of China.
The Uyghur/Kazakh diaspora often avoid openly accepting interviews or making radical statements if their family members are still in China.
If average China has a internet where information is censored, then Xinjiang is like a plus version, a GFW within the GFW. They have a separate internet that can be cut off. [It was once locked in for almost a year](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots#Communications_black-out) (for balance: India also does this in minority ethnic regions).
I am mainly talking about the individual's situation. Like how I'm currently using technically illegal method to talk to you. Just don't expect the probability of being enforced to be as high as in Xinjiang.
I put in a lot of effort to gain the trust of the interviewees and ensure their safety. When I didn't have a deep understanding of this topic in the early days, my online interview once led to a Hui being visited by police. He just told me about the experience of his relative.
Nah, reddit is not banned in Russia. Also illegal method does not make it illegal for you. Maybe for some corporation sure. And even if there are some laws like this in China (none in Russia, Btw) it probably has little to no precedent and hardly enforcable.
1. Theoutcry was an attempt to cause trouble for China
2. Social media trends move on quickly
3. Those who genuinely cared realised that there isn’t actually evidence that a Uyghur genocide is happening
because modern uighur "nationalism" is an american/wahabi destabilization project, similar to certain other Islamic fundamentalists in former soviet countries, and doesn't mesh well with people who would've had PLO sympathies back in the day, a secular and left-ish movement.
The blue flag with white crescent is a symbol of Uyghur separatism; the creation of the state of «East Turkestan» or «Uyghuristan». It may have quite a bit of overlap with the purported repression of Uyghurs within China, but it is a separate issue.
In the West you most often see these flags posted by D.C./NoVa/Germany-based NGOs like the «World Uyghur Congress» or the «East Turkestan Government in exile». Even if we accept the sincerity of their beliefs, they risk their funding and jobs by extending solidarity to the cause of the Palestinians.
In the Middle East and Central Asia you most often see these flags being flown by ISIS-adjacent groups like the «East Turkestan Islamic Movement», who have spent the last 30 years doing mass-stabbings in Chinese train stations and beheading Alawite children in Syria, so it's no mystery why people from that region do not publicly extend solidarity to their cause.
Sweet summer child, they are far too busy yucking it up with Ukrainian fascists and fantasizing about killing Chinese people.
Speaking of Ukraine, as an occupied country you'd think they would also identify and offer solidarity to Palwstiniand fighting a powerful occupier, wouldn't you? But nothing.
Know who else hasn't offered support or solidarity- and has in fact attacked or tried to attack Palestinian supporters in Syria and Lebanon? Al Qaeda and Islanic State.
Wonder what all these shadowy organisations with their mysterious funding and training having common...
There are a lot of crazy nutjobs that support both Gaza and Ukraine. Ukraine is USA design. And so is Gaza throught Afganistan, and Israel attacks befire October 7. Clearly, Gaza should be supported they are almost done for. And Russia should be supported. Their citizens in DNR, LNR were attacked for 8 years. And Biden tried to put nukes in Ukraine.
Uyghur separatism is caused by a successful national revolution in a semi-colonial country and strategic support for it is part of Western use of Islamism to balkanize its enemies. Palestine is comparatively caused by a failed national revolution. It represents an anti-colonial struggle caused by incompleteness of the Arab revolt clashing with the conservation of colonialism as the Cold War polarized the middle east. The parallels here are actually between Arab and Chinese nationalism clashing with the same colonialism.
Palestine existed 3600 years ago, 1600 BC. It was called Peleset, back then spelled in Egyptian hyrogliphs. Wow, educted yourself. In fact, HEbrew did not exist for 50 years after Peleset.
The denial of [Uyghur persecution](https://www.scholarsatrisk.org/2020/11/china-release-imprisoned-scholars-in-the-xinjiang-uyghur-autonomous-region/) in this sub has always fascinated me.
But trying to tie that denial to a lack of Uyghur flags at protests is definitely a new one.
>The denial of Uyghur persecution in this sub has always fascinated me.
It's just calling out obvious war propaganda, there is no genocide. The US is threatened by the rise of China and Xi, so it propagandizes Chinese national integration of fringe provinces like Xinjiang, Tibet, HK, and now Taiwan and crises it leads to. The root of this is anxiety over the collapsing division of China that the Western international order has always been built on. This leads to ironic liberal democratic support for reactionaries in China, including Uyghur separatists.
It’s only obvious war propaganda if you’re the kind of socialist that sees the world as dichotomous, *and* that only one side of that dichotomy is capable of atrocities and propaganda.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle of the US and China stances on the issue. Only fools believe either of those governments or their propaganda arms.
This position is meandering and incoherent. It does not address the regression into a new cold war, but instead suggests those who do are rigid for seeing Xinjiang as a key 2010s pretext for this degeneration. In the English speaking internet Uyghur genocide discourse is monopolized by and originates in war propaganda, which is why the majority of time must be spent debunking it to undo that inequality rather than striking some compromise with it. Your position is a non-sequitur, the answer to whether we should wage war against a tyrannical Chinese state is not the gray area where it suppresses reactionaries. It's that this is part a global dictatorship persecuting one of the largest nations on earth because it is non-Western. This weak belief of yours is why the left utterly failed to oppose the shift to war with Russia and China, which is the actual political issue for the left here.
The way to analyze Xinjiang and Uyghur separatism, including Western support for it, is to fit it into wider global structures and a crisis they are creating. I'm sorry if that precludes some moderate position on Xinjiang you are seeking. You must address the international antagonism first, and then the secondary conflict in Xinjiang, especially since the former explains the latter.
I’m talking about navigating information. You’re talking about whether a Cold War should be waged. Two completely different topics. I’m not the one meandering.
I am talking about navigating one complete picture of the 2010s. There's no separation you are insisting on here in order to justify a claim of rigidity re: Xinjiang and Uyghur genocide being Western war propaganda.
To you there’s no separation. To many others like myself, a Cold War is not justified, even when atrocities occur, but at a different scale than what’s being purported by the west. Again some people view the situation as dichotomous and that is a mistake. We disagree.
If I understand you right, then your issue is not with rigidity on whether only one side can do bad things. It's whether Xinjiang is justification for a war on China, with one side pushing it and the other debunking it. You believe the latter denies, with careful wording, Uyghur persecution rather than genocide. I still think this position fails to address the root cause of Uyghur genocide claims and the origin of the crisis in Xinjiang, which is Chinese national integration and Western fear of it, instead opting for some meandering position that both sides can do bad things.
"Persecution" is a lighter charge than genocide. The Chinese absolutely did respond to extremist terrorism^1 in an authoritarian way (forced education, cultural repression, etc) but that is different than 'genocide.' Undoubtedly the more libertarian socialists (think Chomsky) or ~~anarkiddies~~ anarchists will have issues with an authoritarian response so that this sub has fewer of these types than other leftist spaces also factors into the vibe here.
For genocide the only thing you point to is birth rates and argue that birth rates are *only* dropping from Chinese authoritarian policies while disregarding any other reasons birth rates naturally drop as a region progresses in development ([education for women, higher employment]( https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/xinjiang-uyghur-crackdown-population-decline-by-yi-fuxian-2022-07), etc). The average wages in places in Xinjiang have increased 3-4x compared to twenty years ago. Does that have an effect on birth rates? (rhetorical question)
Is worrying about birth rates inherently genocide? There's always a lot of talk about [African birth rates by western elites and certain NGOs](https://www.gatesfoundation.org/ideas/media-center/press-releases/2018/09/gates-foundation-report-says-demographic-trends-threaten-global-progress). No one considers this genocide, though there are definitely arguments about neo-colonialism but that is a different conversation.
I don't think the overall vibe here would deny "persecution" but that is not genocide and there is a huge contrast between what Gaza looks like and what Urumqi looks like. Ultimately you can say persecution and repression took place but those are not the same as charges of genocide and rarely does anyone go indepth into the declining birth rates for any reason other than to say Han elites want to stomp out Uyghurs forever. With Israel and Palestinians, there is pretty clearly a deep ethnic, religious, and material impetus in their genocide and apartheid against Gaza and the West Bank. I just do not see the same motivation for China against Uyghurs.
This is just an aside as this point I also find it weird that the average (or even most) of the Uyghur genocide accusations never come with the associated conversation of terrorism. Has a single Jamestown person said it is good that there is no more extremist terrorism in China?
Speaking of the Jamestown Foundation (Zenz NGO), there are only 12 articles when you search "China terrorism" on their website. There's only [12 results](https://imgur.com/a/n9plOsX) and only one of those actually discusses some of the terrorism that occurred in China by extremists yet also calls it a "self-inflicted insurgency." Isn't it weird that the Jamestown Foundation has massive indepth reports of genocide by the Chinese but doesn't have a single indepth report on terrorism within China? Idk that smells a little *strange* to me!
1 - I think from 2003 - 2018 there were more deaths due to terrorism in China than Israel. Now think about the plurality of Israeli actions due to Palestinian rockets causing 3 deaths then launching shit like Op. Cast Lead causing 1000+ deaths in response
Bad faiths that Uyghurs "genocide" should be taken as seriously as Palestines, entire comment history is shitting on Islam and Muslims. Doesn't even believe own bad faith argument defends Israel and Zionists. Gets bigly mad that Palestine supporters are doing the same but in reverse. Claims Islam is inherently toxic and violent conveniently forgets own stance and ignores terrorist attacks and extremism by Uyghurs. Average Western Uyghur "genocide" pusher, do better.
Zionism always relies on the squid ink accusation that things are never about what theyre about. They hate us because antisemism, they hate us because of propaganda and foreign subversion, we just need to find the right combination of words to change their mind because this is about attitudes, perspectives, snarl words in themselves as words, interprative lenses and ideas. It is never about the actual reality of what Israel is, has done and is doing and peoples visceral, immediate, authentic moral disgust.
Cant argue for zionism on the strength of the facts. Instead try and change the arguement to an abstract one about the sincerity and motivations of the people pointing out the facts.
Because theyre not comparable events in reality. If China was doing to Uighurs 2 percent of what Israel is to Palestinians literally nothing else would be covered in western news except ukraine.
I'm hardly anti-west. Communism is a western idea. Cant see how im anti-white either. Like is it anti-white to be pro or anti british colonialism if i'm irish? Political brainrot koan.
There's nothing woke about national liberation, it's a very old plank of the left. Neoliberalism is not posited as struggling against colonialism and a great nation. Palestine as a struggle instead refutes the distinction between these things.
I don't know if gay people supporting Palestine is woke, not sure how other than they're gay.
Talking about colonialism or oppressor and oppressed is very very old, I'm not sure if it's woke unless we are defining that term as any intersection of marxism and culture
If this is a sincere question: I have never personally encountered a Uyghur Muslim or whatever Muslim living in China who does not oppose Israel. Uyghur exiles living in the West have a selection bias and are generally less deeply into Islam than Uyghur community in Xinjiang (excluding the latest generation). Those Islamist type tend to go to Islamic countries. Uyghur exiles living in the West AND organized receive funding more or less from the US establishment or whatever. Not a good idea to go against your benefactor on issues unrelated to your.
> If this is a sincere question It very obviously is not.
Too busy living normal lives not being bombed
the american hand up their ass forbids it
Can you point me to the footage of uyghur being tried behind to pla trucks and torn to shreds by the asphalt ? Cause i can point towards footage of the idf doing that.
In fact 500 pages of that, on both sides, Gaza and IDF.
Ah yes. Both sides. Point me to the 500 pages of "Gaza" tying people to trucks. Was that before or after they blocked food stuffs from entering Israel? I think maybe they did it in one of their mowing the lawn operations. Perhaps in one of their illegal settlements on the east bank.
It is right on watch people die.
The same reason why there's endless footage of Palestinians being abused since Oct but no videos of Uyghurs have.
Because there’s total control of the internet in Xinjiang but not in Palestine?
Even if that was true. We had more footage of the turmoil during china’s early attempts at establishing quarantine zones before they came clean about covid. There are photos and videos from xinjiang that makes the CPC look suspect in some instances like scanning ID whenever someone wanted to purchase a knife or other forms of police overreach Yet, zero evidence of the horrors that we are told or mass brutality coordinated by the state against uighur people. Either the CPC is extremely efficient in committing itself to s genocide whilst doing little domestically to promote it or they’re incompetent. Its a conspiracy theory,
I mean internet censorship is true and China’s government asserts the right to do so openly. So if you dispute this, you’re disputing China’s own government. Regarding the atrocities, I don’t take any of them hook line and sinker. The west has its own propaganda arm to be sure. That’s why I just trust China’s own numbers [and documents](https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/read-the-china-cables-documents/) for a far more nuanced picture of ethnic erasure. Why people deny this is beyond me.
> That’s why I just trust China’s own numbers and documents for a far more nuanced picture of ethnic erasure. lol those documents have both traditional and simplified chinese. some of them use terminology that is basically taiwanese argot (因特网 for internet instead of 互联网 which is the official mainland way of saying internet). the secret documents allegedly number in the thousands and yet the corporate media only lets you read a select few they doctored up, how interesting. >Why people deny this is beyond me. because i'm chinese, read the language, and its entirely an act designed to fool gullible westerners.
Yeah, anyone who reads Chinese, and is familiar with CPC 'Officialese' can smell bullshit instantly. It's also why direct translations of CPC documents seem so robotic and crazy sounding. It doesn't lend well to translation. Imagine if a 'secret US government document' was being bandied around and it had words like 'colour', 'lorry' or 'your mum's a sket'.
You clearly do not read a lot of secret US documents. They have even worse bs than this.
Ah, but Chinese documents are a special breed. Here's one I grabbed from gov.cn today, I put it through google translate > The key to China's modernization lies in the modernization of science and technology, and the key to building a socialist modern power lies in scientific and technological self-reliance. Since the 18th CPC National Congress, the CPC Central Committee with Comrade Xi Jinping as the core has insisted on placing scientific and technological innovation at the core of the overall national development, improving the new national system, and accelerating the promotion of high-level scientific and technological self-reliance. my country's science and technology has achieved historic achievements and historic changes, and has entered the ranks of innovative countries. The vast number of scientific and technological workers have devoted themselves to scientific and technological innovation, continuously achieved new results and made new breakthroughs, and provided solid support for China's modernization. It's not an egregious example, but you can see how clunky it is. Part of my job is translating announcements from my company into English, and cleaning up the 'chinglish'.
These are not classified. I am talking like Pentagon leak stuff, top secret.
The point we're making is that official documents have a style and cadence, and if it's supposedly from America, it would use American English. So if it was using UK words like 'lorry' or 'colour', then it would raise suspicion. So if a supposed bombshell of a Chinese government document was using 汉字 that wouldn't normally be used in China or Taiwanese Mandarin words for some things, then you can start to question its validity.
> I mean internet censorship is true and China’s government asserts the right to do so openly. So if you dispute this, you’re disputing China’s own government. With the caveat that its fairly obvious this isn't sincere engagement on your part I'll still bite - No one is disputing censorship. They're stating a pretty obvious and clear eyed fact that there are material realities to what can and cannot be indefinitely censored and provided such examples. Its very foolish to think that if horrors were being committed at even 1/10th the scale we're seeing in the Levant that they wouldn't be plastered all over western media and take up even more oxygen from regular news cycles than they already do.
I’m citing the government’s own paperwork instead of western propaganda, but I’m not being sincere? Ok. We can disagree. Don’t slander the argument. That’s insincere.
The secret documents came to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists via a chain of exiled Uighurs. Their authenticity was confirmed by several leading experts, including James Mulvenon, vice-president of Defense Group Inc, Adrian Zenz, a senior fellow in China studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation in Washington, D.C. and several intelligence sources who cannot be identified. Are you even trying bro?
>Adrian Zenz, a senior fellow zenz himself admits he doesn't understand the language
Its a short week for gov't workers. Dropping an Adian Zenz link on reddit is probably all they really need to do to coast into the long weekend.
The secret documents were verified by the spook currently working in the we fucking hate China ngo. 🙃
Every time lol
Are not some of those organisations banned as extremists in Russia?
I will just give you a hint. There is a domain for china.
It is fake bs. There is no any censhorship. It is just to protect people, everyone still uses Vpn if they really need something. Just as in Russia these little filthy beurocrats needs to be gone though.
Ill stake my credibility on this issue to support your all content in this thread up to now. Any camp experiencer will sign an agreement to ensure they do not disclose their experiences. Discussing these is technically illegal. It does seem there is no deliberate intention to mass murder the population but the resulting deaths are real — [not a characteristic of the Uyghur issue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan_hide-and-seek_incident) if you are familiar with the other side of China. The Uyghur/Kazakh diaspora often avoid openly accepting interviews or making radical statements if their family members are still in China. If average China has a internet where information is censored, then Xinjiang is like a plus version, a GFW within the GFW. They have a separate internet that can be cut off. [It was once locked in for almost a year](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots#Communications_black-out) (for balance: India also does this in minority ethnic regions).
Discussing this is technically internationally legal. China is a member of UN.
I am mainly talking about the individual's situation. Like how I'm currently using technically illegal method to talk to you. Just don't expect the probability of being enforced to be as high as in Xinjiang. I put in a lot of effort to gain the trust of the interviewees and ensure their safety. When I didn't have a deep understanding of this topic in the early days, my online interview once led to a Hui being visited by police. He just told me about the experience of his relative.
Nah, reddit is not banned in Russia. Also illegal method does not make it illegal for you. Maybe for some corporation sure. And even if there are some laws like this in China (none in Russia, Btw) it probably has little to no precedent and hardly enforcable.
1. Theoutcry was an attempt to cause trouble for China 2. Social media trends move on quickly 3. Those who genuinely cared realised that there isn’t actually evidence that a Uyghur genocide is happening
because modern uighur "nationalism" is an american/wahabi destabilization project, similar to certain other Islamic fundamentalists in former soviet countries, and doesn't mesh well with people who would've had PLO sympathies back in the day, a secular and left-ish movement.
The same reason there is not Palestinian solidarity with Uyghers.
You know why.
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The blue flag with white crescent is a symbol of Uyghur separatism; the creation of the state of «East Turkestan» or «Uyghuristan». It may have quite a bit of overlap with the purported repression of Uyghurs within China, but it is a separate issue. In the West you most often see these flags posted by D.C./NoVa/Germany-based NGOs like the «World Uyghur Congress» or the «East Turkestan Government in exile». Even if we accept the sincerity of their beliefs, they risk their funding and jobs by extending solidarity to the cause of the Palestinians. In the Middle East and Central Asia you most often see these flags being flown by ISIS-adjacent groups like the «East Turkestan Islamic Movement», who have spent the last 30 years doing mass-stabbings in Chinese train stations and beheading Alawite children in Syria, so it's no mystery why people from that region do not publicly extend solidarity to their cause.
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So what does that tell you? Uyghurs aren't being oppressed
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Alright autogenerated username 👽
it ain’t bout that
Sweet summer child, they are far too busy yucking it up with Ukrainian fascists and fantasizing about killing Chinese people. Speaking of Ukraine, as an occupied country you'd think they would also identify and offer solidarity to Palwstiniand fighting a powerful occupier, wouldn't you? But nothing. Know who else hasn't offered support or solidarity- and has in fact attacked or tried to attack Palestinian supporters in Syria and Lebanon? Al Qaeda and Islanic State. Wonder what all these shadowy organisations with their mysterious funding and training having common...
There are a lot of crazy nutjobs that support both Gaza and Ukraine. Ukraine is USA design. And so is Gaza throught Afganistan, and Israel attacks befire October 7. Clearly, Gaza should be supported they are almost done for. And Russia should be supported. Their citizens in DNR, LNR were attacked for 8 years. And Biden tried to put nukes in Ukraine.
European and America are funding Israel directly and have no bearing over what China does.
>wigger solidarity
Skin tone too light + CCP criticism from the left isn't a cohesive movement.
In fact in my opinion asians are white, though... Racemixxing with them is still no-no for me.
What the UAE is funding in Sudan against black-africans/non-arabs and non-muslims is atrocious.
Uyghur separatism is caused by a successful national revolution in a semi-colonial country and strategic support for it is part of Western use of Islamism to balkanize its enemies. Palestine is comparatively caused by a failed national revolution. It represents an anti-colonial struggle caused by incompleteness of the Arab revolt clashing with the conservation of colonialism as the Cold War polarized the middle east. The parallels here are actually between Arab and Chinese nationalism clashing with the same colonialism.
Palestine existed 3600 years ago, 1600 BC. It was called Peleset, back then spelled in Egyptian hyrogliphs. Wow, educted yourself. In fact, HEbrew did not exist for 50 years after Peleset.
Because Palestinians are getting slaughtered and their cities destroyed while Uyghurs are getting educated and their cities built.
The denial of [Uyghur persecution](https://www.scholarsatrisk.org/2020/11/china-release-imprisoned-scholars-in-the-xinjiang-uyghur-autonomous-region/) in this sub has always fascinated me. But trying to tie that denial to a lack of Uyghur flags at protests is definitely a new one.
>The denial of Uyghur persecution in this sub has always fascinated me. It's just calling out obvious war propaganda, there is no genocide. The US is threatened by the rise of China and Xi, so it propagandizes Chinese national integration of fringe provinces like Xinjiang, Tibet, HK, and now Taiwan and crises it leads to. The root of this is anxiety over the collapsing division of China that the Western international order has always been built on. This leads to ironic liberal democratic support for reactionaries in China, including Uyghur separatists.
It’s only obvious war propaganda if you’re the kind of socialist that sees the world as dichotomous, *and* that only one side of that dichotomy is capable of atrocities and propaganda. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of the US and China stances on the issue. Only fools believe either of those governments or their propaganda arms.
This position is meandering and incoherent. It does not address the regression into a new cold war, but instead suggests those who do are rigid for seeing Xinjiang as a key 2010s pretext for this degeneration. In the English speaking internet Uyghur genocide discourse is monopolized by and originates in war propaganda, which is why the majority of time must be spent debunking it to undo that inequality rather than striking some compromise with it. Your position is a non-sequitur, the answer to whether we should wage war against a tyrannical Chinese state is not the gray area where it suppresses reactionaries. It's that this is part a global dictatorship persecuting one of the largest nations on earth because it is non-Western. This weak belief of yours is why the left utterly failed to oppose the shift to war with Russia and China, which is the actual political issue for the left here. The way to analyze Xinjiang and Uyghur separatism, including Western support for it, is to fit it into wider global structures and a crisis they are creating. I'm sorry if that precludes some moderate position on Xinjiang you are seeking. You must address the international antagonism first, and then the secondary conflict in Xinjiang, especially since the former explains the latter.
I’m talking about navigating information. You’re talking about whether a Cold War should be waged. Two completely different topics. I’m not the one meandering.
I am talking about navigating one complete picture of the 2010s. There's no separation you are insisting on here in order to justify a claim of rigidity re: Xinjiang and Uyghur genocide being Western war propaganda.
To you there’s no separation. To many others like myself, a Cold War is not justified, even when atrocities occur, but at a different scale than what’s being purported by the west. Again some people view the situation as dichotomous and that is a mistake. We disagree.
If I understand you right, then your issue is not with rigidity on whether only one side can do bad things. It's whether Xinjiang is justification for a war on China, with one side pushing it and the other debunking it. You believe the latter denies, with careful wording, Uyghur persecution rather than genocide. I still think this position fails to address the root cause of Uyghur genocide claims and the origin of the crisis in Xinjiang, which is Chinese national integration and Western fear of it, instead opting for some meandering position that both sides can do bad things.
"Persecution" is a lighter charge than genocide. The Chinese absolutely did respond to extremist terrorism^1 in an authoritarian way (forced education, cultural repression, etc) but that is different than 'genocide.' Undoubtedly the more libertarian socialists (think Chomsky) or ~~anarkiddies~~ anarchists will have issues with an authoritarian response so that this sub has fewer of these types than other leftist spaces also factors into the vibe here. For genocide the only thing you point to is birth rates and argue that birth rates are *only* dropping from Chinese authoritarian policies while disregarding any other reasons birth rates naturally drop as a region progresses in development ([education for women, higher employment]( https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/xinjiang-uyghur-crackdown-population-decline-by-yi-fuxian-2022-07), etc). The average wages in places in Xinjiang have increased 3-4x compared to twenty years ago. Does that have an effect on birth rates? (rhetorical question) Is worrying about birth rates inherently genocide? There's always a lot of talk about [African birth rates by western elites and certain NGOs](https://www.gatesfoundation.org/ideas/media-center/press-releases/2018/09/gates-foundation-report-says-demographic-trends-threaten-global-progress). No one considers this genocide, though there are definitely arguments about neo-colonialism but that is a different conversation. I don't think the overall vibe here would deny "persecution" but that is not genocide and there is a huge contrast between what Gaza looks like and what Urumqi looks like. Ultimately you can say persecution and repression took place but those are not the same as charges of genocide and rarely does anyone go indepth into the declining birth rates for any reason other than to say Han elites want to stomp out Uyghurs forever. With Israel and Palestinians, there is pretty clearly a deep ethnic, religious, and material impetus in their genocide and apartheid against Gaza and the West Bank. I just do not see the same motivation for China against Uyghurs. This is just an aside as this point I also find it weird that the average (or even most) of the Uyghur genocide accusations never come with the associated conversation of terrorism. Has a single Jamestown person said it is good that there is no more extremist terrorism in China? Speaking of the Jamestown Foundation (Zenz NGO), there are only 12 articles when you search "China terrorism" on their website. There's only [12 results](https://imgur.com/a/n9plOsX) and only one of those actually discusses some of the terrorism that occurred in China by extremists yet also calls it a "self-inflicted insurgency." Isn't it weird that the Jamestown Foundation has massive indepth reports of genocide by the Chinese but doesn't have a single indepth report on terrorism within China? Idk that smells a little *strange* to me! 1 - I think from 2003 - 2018 there were more deaths due to terrorism in China than Israel. Now think about the plurality of Israeli actions due to Palestinian rockets causing 3 deaths then launching shit like Op. Cast Lead causing 1000+ deaths in response
Aren’t you aware Daddy China has never committed a crime against humanity before?
Nope, but the US never lied about a war justification before. No siree.
This is written in english. Not in chinese.
Based
Bad faiths that Uyghurs "genocide" should be taken as seriously as Palestines, entire comment history is shitting on Islam and Muslims. Doesn't even believe own bad faith argument defends Israel and Zionists. Gets bigly mad that Palestine supporters are doing the same but in reverse. Claims Islam is inherently toxic and violent conveniently forgets own stance and ignores terrorist attacks and extremism by Uyghurs. Average Western Uyghur "genocide" pusher, do better.
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Zionism always relies on the squid ink accusation that things are never about what theyre about. They hate us because antisemism, they hate us because of propaganda and foreign subversion, we just need to find the right combination of words to change their mind because this is about attitudes, perspectives, snarl words in themselves as words, interprative lenses and ideas. It is never about the actual reality of what Israel is, has done and is doing and peoples visceral, immediate, authentic moral disgust. Cant argue for zionism on the strength of the facts. Instead try and change the arguement to an abstract one about the sincerity and motivations of the people pointing out the facts.
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Because theyre not comparable events in reality. If China was doing to Uighurs 2 percent of what Israel is to Palestinians literally nothing else would be covered in western news except ukraine. I'm hardly anti-west. Communism is a western idea. Cant see how im anti-white either. Like is it anti-white to be pro or anti british colonialism if i'm irish? Political brainrot koan.
it's because there is no genocide, otherwise you people would be rushing to the ICJ for your own case
There's nothing woke about national liberation, it's a very old plank of the left. Neoliberalism is not posited as struggling against colonialism and a great nation. Palestine as a struggle instead refutes the distinction between these things.
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I don't know if gay people supporting Palestine is woke, not sure how other than they're gay. Talking about colonialism or oppressor and oppressed is very very old, I'm not sure if it's woke unless we are defining that term as any intersection of marxism and culture