There's definitely a sizeable portion of men who just want to hook up and lie about it to get laid, but I think there's a very significant portion of situations where the guy goes on a couple dates with the girl, realizes she's not relationship material, and uses the "not ready for a relationship" line to avoid the awkwardness of stating that he's just not that into her, which then creates this whole experience for women where they think a lot of men aren't into relationships, when they're really just getting rejected from candidacy for a relationship
I think it's a really shitty thing to do bc if she likes you she will wait. I've had a guy tell me this and my response was to just wait for him. And i waited for a LONG time bc he said he liked me like I'm talking close to a year. Yeah it was dumb but I based that decision off of the lie he told to avoid rejecting me but i had no idea so I waited. Then he got a girlfriend. It would have saved me so much time and pain if he was straight up with me.
Right, like if a guy breaks up with you because he needs to “focus” on something he’s already doing like school or work, he’s just not that into you and trying to let you down gently.
This is the harsh truth. I'm no Timothy Chalamet, but honestly all the girls I've met off the apps who complained that no man wants to be serious have been slightly below my league. The really attractive ones struggling to settle down complain that they can't find anyone that THEY deem good enough.
And it's obvious they keep going after guys that are more attractive than them and have higher standards. And the guys are willing to sleep with them, but don't find them good enough to be serious with.
There’s a lot of men who do what to be in a relationship but not with you. But they are happy to keep you around for a bit.
Or there’s the guys who say they are no hook ups, turns out they want a fwb, when you say no hook ups you mean you want a relationship.
It’s all very complicated.
Women and men do vet work each other but sometimes people aren’t honest with others or themselves.
I have a lot of good men in my life who take relationships seriously. But they all got snagged out of the dating pool young, lol. All of them got with their long-term partners as teens or early 20s.
fuckin truuuuuu. for some reason, humans are non stop motivated to do the sex they want. it's impressive how much we seem to care about fulfilling our desires.
That is exactly what women do. But many men pretend to be interested in a relationship in order to get laid. It’s exhausting. That’s what “difficult time” means.
Exactly, if men were more up-front about wanting casual sex, and the women who like casual sex weren't shamed for it, this whole issue wouldn't exist.
Sure, there would still be more men wanting casual sex than women, but it would be a hell of a lot better than what we have now.
Honestly I'm not 100% sure that there would still be more men looking for hookups than women. There's a lot of pressure on men to be looking for hookups (among other men) and that leads to men trying hookups bc they think they'd have to want to (bc seemingly every other man does, and you gotta "bag the hoe" to be cool.) On the other hand, women have pressure (from both other men and women) to "not be slutty" and preserve themselves, so a lot of people that would be interested in hookups never even try. Maybe it would still be true that men look for more hookups, but we genuinely have no way of telling bc societal norms and pressure make it so having a true sample is impossible
It’s also not just pressure though and it’s not always so easy for women to be totally transparent about their wants for other reasons. As a man I’ve never worried about my safety going on a tinder date or whatever and hooking up with a stranger. A girl on the other hand will absolutely have those sort of worries in her mind. If she decides that she doesn’t want to hook up during the date or go a certain distance sexually she has to wonder and worry if he will take no for an answer or even get violent at being told no. This is why women on dating apps will often say in the bios that they don’t want to just have a hookup, and still be totally willing to have a hookup. Also where does she go to hookup? If she goes to his place that obviously feels very unsafe to be on his turf where he is in control but if you bring him to yours now he knows where you live and can stalk you if you reject him and he doesn’t take it well. Thus for most women casual sex can’t really be truly casual in the same way it can be for men.
You are so spot on. I am open to casual hookups, but men are so quick to assume that I don't feel comfortable going on a date. I want to meet people before deciding
That’s not always the case to the point that it may *usually* not be the case.
I’ve many times been interested in a woman for an actual relationship, but then she gets really clingy and makes me feel overwhelmed. That’s usually around the same time sex starts. I don’t know if it’s the hormones that sex brings it out, but if you don’t like anxious attachment types, like many men don’t, you usually won’t even see that side of her until you have sex.
Also, as a younger man, you don’t know the difference between lust and actually genuinely liking the person. So, what was just a bit of quirkiness at 1.5 months in, becomes annoyance and a dread to be around at 3 months. Once you hit a certain age you should recognize the difference, but not all guys do, I’m in my 40’s and it seems like all my divorced friends go through the puppy love stage with some girl they think they arw “the one” very early, but are trying to get rid of them a month later at least once after becoming single again. Guys do that a lot, where they are all about a woman than see a different side to her or just stop and think and then they are out, women seem to be a lot quicker to blow their life up and lean into early relationship romance (U-Haul lesbians is a thing for a reason), where men try to hit the breaks and take things at a slower emotional pace after the initial emotional rush.
Went through that with my girlfriend. She's never been in a relationship that didn't involve moving in at the 3-6 month mark (if not sooner). It was an adjustment for her when I quite clearly told I wasn't interested in moving in with her, even though that was also a conversation we had before we began dating.
My brother's girlfriend moved in after two weeks. She also claims she hasn't slept alone for longer than a week since she was 16. So that's bound to end well ...
So, about the timeline. for the first 90 days you and your new partner are in the lust phase, still trying to be the person the other is looking for. After 90 days both of your real personalities start to show, and if you can still stand to be around them after 90 days, you are going to, most likely, keep dating. But the 90 day trial period is, and always will be my go to.
This- imagine having a "friend" for over a decade and then they finally come out and say they have been waiting for you and you find out their last relationship went south because they gave their partner low esteem by constantly comparing them to am idealized version of you. When you made it VERY CLEAR you only wanted friendship.
Then they DEMAND you give them a chance and let them "prove" they are what you "need".
Yeah, its pretty fucked up.
Having been down this road sometimes you stick it out for a month or two before things become physical and the sex and physical chemistry is not good. It could be one or both partners just not matching up but putting in that much time and effort only to find out it’s not gonna go anywhere is a poor use of time.
I only have so much time. You can’t sample every potential relationship for months or years.
If after a month you can tell it’s not going anywhere, it’s ok to move on
When people complain that "XYZ is HARD!" it carries the implication that in their minds "XYZ" *should* be easy.
But finding a life partner is probably the single most important decision most people make in their lives. It really SHOULDN'T be easy.
And anybody who says "well back in \[high school, college, or insert your preferred olden tymey period here\] it was easy to find a partner" is looking at the past through some seriously rose-colored glasses.
Nope, it's not easy. The most important choices in life rarely are.
I think you're missing the point of the phenomenon OP is talking about. It's not that women find it hard to find a compatible partner, it's that they face the additional challenge of having to weed out men who are posturing as potential partners when in reality they're just looking for sex. Figuring out if someone is a good match for marriage is difficult no matter who you are, but that issue is very specific to women.
Most people don’t set their standards high enough and end up with someone who isn’t right for them, or even makes them miserable. Sometimes I feel bad for being single, like it’s a personal failure, but then I remember there are a ton of guys I COULD date, but who do not meet my standards. And when I look around, I realize I’m not at all jealous of other people’s unhappy relationships.
Then there's the flip side of that of people who have unrealistically high and superficial standards. Those people will never be happy with anyone because no human is perfect.
I feel like I am in bizarro world with some of these comments, where men who only want a hookup will wait months and years for sex and promptly drop you after, but men who want a relationship will drop you after 2 or 3 dates due to no sex.
The other issue is, sometimes they leave because they waited to have sex with you, and when they finally did, it wasn’t that good and they lost interest.
It’s strange to me because sex almost always gets better with time, when you’re closer to the other person and know their likes/dislikes better. You kinda get into a groove after the first few times and when romantic feelings get even stronger, it’s great.
I guess it’s always a bit weird the first time, placement never quite smooth, you find yourself not quite in the right positions or wanting to switch a little early or late. but I’m also gonna say from experience that you can tell right away that this woman is a complete dead fish and is never gonna move or do anything, complete adverse to any types of kinks, or in the woman’s case, this guy is not gonna dominate me the way I want him to/make love to me and cuddle the way I want him to. and I don’t have the time or energy to correct this.
Oh definitely! I think you can have bad sex the first time for sure. But if you like the person otherwise, sometimes you can work on meeting each others’ needs more. I feel like first times have been average to above average for most of my actual relationship partners, but sex always got better the more time we spent together.
I love sex and want to have a lot of it, but even if the sex was meh and I love the person it’s not even remotely close to a dealbreaker. It’s just one thing out of so many. Level of effort still matters though. There’s a difference between being bad at it, and not trying.
Same.
Exploring each others sexuality can take a long time and always gets better. Dropping someone after the first time sounds more to me like insecurity.
What is this sex thing everyone is talking about? I haven't played the latest Pokemon Gen yet, so I'm not familiar with those (in case sex is a pokemon)
if I drop a woman after a few dates, it's because I have a pretty solid list of ~~red flags~~ deal breakers, and I will not hesitate to move on them. I am looking for a few very specific things, and if a woman doesn't have them... well, my Steam backlog is only getting longer.
And just in case people think I am some gross basement-dweller who "only dates 10/10s", I am talking about things like having no hobbies or being extra shitty to the waiter.
The “no hobbies” red flag has been showing up far too often lately. I don’t understand how women (and men too I’m sure) go through life without actually being interested in anything.
It’s definitely men too. It’s increasingly ~~encouraged~~ pushed. Social media and other distractions becoming more sophisticated all the time at hooking people in and keeping them locked in instead of making or doing something in private, irl or with some friends away from algorithms constantly mining them for clicks or advertising opportunities.
Consumption is the great American pastime and I’m sure this is increasingly true in other countries. A lot of hobbies are free or close enough to free, require no subscriptions and are intrinsically rewarding.
It may be that people with hobbies tend to get snatched up by other people with hobbies. Most women I know have hobbies, a good handful of them are prolifically creative, very skilled at their avocation, and most of them are taken. I would say the guys I know with hobbies also tend to be taken.
Nobody really “has no hobbies”, they just have hobbies that seem too boring or embarrassing to discuss. Whatever you fill your free time with, or make time for, is effectively a hobby.
Exactly. If you're going to "lose the guy" because you won't sleep with him immediately, he's probably not the kind of guy who's looking for a relationship.
Hook up culture has been so normalized in some social circles that demanding sex early in relationships is seen as normal not a red flag.
I've had a man pretend to be interested in me, and engage in friendly conversation and flirting for over two years. Without wanting a relationship and just wanting to hookup
If I didn't constantly remind myself that he only wanted sex, which he admitted to when I asked him, I probably would have fallen for it.
Many more men will lie and say they want a relationship
You wouldn’t believe how much effort some men will put into a woman if they think she’ll sleep with him. Honestly, I don’t get it either, but of us have had at least one dude who’s put in *months* of effort only to turn into a different person once they’ve had sex. I think also some may actually mean the effort but then value the woman less once she’s “given it up” - a degree of very deep-seated misogyny I guess
I go the other way with it, if I’m attracted to a guy I’ll sleep with him as soon as we both want to. If he’s going to ghost or get weird or be disrespectful or whatever during/after sex, might as well know that before I’ve invested emotionally. It can work out - I slept with my OH of coming up to four years on the second date. I wasn’t looking for a relationship 😂
Because the men they "want" are out of their league. The sheer number of single mom looking for men with a stable job and income twice theirs without offering anything commensurate is out of this world.
You'd be horrified to know how many men are out there looking for a woman with her own house so that he can live there for free. Everyone gets used. I'm a single mom and I now will not date someone who doesn't earn as much as I do. I'm not a gold digger, I just don't want to be a sugar momma.
Yup. way to go girl. I married a cute and adorable single mom with one kid, she's really stable with her own house and car, she told me most guys are intimidated with her, she said she's openly and blatantly interested in me because I also have a car and my own house even though I'm a socially awkward shy and an anti-social single dad with a daughter.
Single older man, no kids, 6 figures. I won't date single moms. I won't date women with minimal earnings. I won't date unhealthy women. That rules out the vast majority of women. Oh well.. life is peaceful. Lol
You are being naive here. It’s way more complex than just find a guy who wants a relationship. How can a woman determine who wants a relationship and who doesn’t if there are people who lie about it and guys who don’t really know what they want.
I want a relationship but that doesn’t mean I will want a relationship with any woman just like these women don’t just want just any man who wants a relationship. Most women don’t respond to dick pics and most of the time they won’t respond to you up unless they have an established thing with that guy or they are looking to hook up themselves.
It is difficult. In college I had a guy pursue me for a year despite multiple rejections. I figured no guy would pursue someone an entire year just to have sex with them….
…..Nope, we had sex and he told everybody.
Much like with a lot of women, a lot of men are good liars/actors.
I think the main issue isn’t that people “only want hookups” and I actually don’t think most men who ghost a woman after sex were just in it for the hook up. People do vet their potential dates so if they want a relationship they weed out hookup casual requests. But relationships for most people they want them to have sex involved. So eventually you’re going to have sex. And sexual incompatibility is just kinda easy to tell. I think it’s normal that two people both looking for relationships would date and if the connection of there they’re gonna have sex maybe early maybe waiting 6 months but if that sex isn’t good it’s a huge reason to just stop immediately. Women and men can vet and insist on waiting but when the guy you’re so into has terrible sex skills and you aren’t in deep love and you do NOT feel like teaching him then it’s over. And yeah then people tend to cry and say “that person used me for sex” but more accurately the person had the sex and didn’t want more. Are there players who do it for ego boost yeah but I’m guessing it’s much more common two well meaning people seeking a life partner eventually bump uglies and no fireworks happen so why sit and force a relationship that’s lame.
I think this is a flawed view that's become pretty normalized. You don't have to click sexually on the first go. I think people are wasting what could be great relationships because they aren't getting the instant gratification they've been told to expect.
With every partner I've had in the past, the least satisfying time has usually been the first. I'm not looking to get overly specific, but you learn more about each other and do better over time.
I don’t think you understand how well fuck boys can optimize. Yes, there’s the lazy “wanna fuck” strategy that rarely works. But, many many guys have the finesse to string a woman along by making her think a relationship is possible and that he’s just hesitant, usually with a made up heartthrob backstory that justifies their indecisiveness. Do that until you get laid, then ghost, rinse and repeat. It works with a much higher rate of success than the lazy strategy, but the trade off is that it’s more difficult to pull off. This is very difficult to screen for from the woman’s perspective, especially if the guy in question has had practice by the dozens before her.
>But, many many guys have the finesse to string a woman along by making her think a relationship is possible and that he’s just hesitant, usually with a made up heartthrob backstory that justifies their indecisiveness.
Okay so this is going to hit with the same impact of "90% of gamblers quit right before they strike it rich" but sometimes you are just hesitant and the backstory that justifies your indecisiveness isn't made up.
This was literally me. I just realized that it was me sometime after actually getting into a relationship and looking back on my behavior with the other people I had inadvertently strung along. Yes, I had just gotten out of a very long term relationship and moved to a new city where I was trying to reestablish myself. Yes, I was just looking to connect with people, rediscover intimacy and connection without jumping into a new relationship. Yes, I put my lucrative career in my bio.
I was very straightforward that I was looking for a connection without a new relationship. I was also clear that this didn't entail sex. I just wanted to feel close with someone, have that spark of connection, be flirty, hold hands and feel like I had someone to care about. I also had bottom barrel self-esteem, had no idea what I was looking for, and when the "You said you're not looking for a relationship buuuut I want to make sure that I'm with someone who I potentially could have a relationship with" conversations inevitably happened I wasn't responding to anyone saying "There's absolutely no potential" because, quite frankly I had just forgotten what being in love, having real chemistry, felt like until it struck me a few months in.
So here's a PSA for anyone who needs it: If you're actually looking for someone who would consider developing a long term relationship, don't pursue someone who just got out of an extremely long term relationship and is trying to fill the void their ex left in their life. They probably can't even be honest with themselves.
This, except that it's not even difficult to pull off. I've seen women do the same thing for different reasons and it's so easy to say "I'm interested in a relationship, but not just with anyone, and I'm not 100% convinced of you yet, I've been screwed over before". I don't condone this behavior, but even at above lazy fuckboy/girl level it is wildly easy to pull off.
There are no repercussions for "dating" someone for a few weeks, acting like a doting bf/gf, and then texting/calling/meeting and saying "it's not you, it's me, but it's not working out", either.
I've seen this a lot among women friends. However, I've also seen many of those friends going back to the same type of men again and again and expecting different results. There's dual responsibility here, with the "fool me once...fool.me twice..." cliché being a key aspect of one of them. Insincere people - whether they be fuck boys or gold diggers (from a male point of view) - tend to share certain characteristics that aren't particularly hard to spot.
Could say the same of guys who spend money on women who don’t wanna date them and complain about getting led on. I don’t feel bad for them either at a certain point. Both kinds of people should learn from their mistakes.
LoL bro! I have a core memory of some girls mom at our house making a scene because my brother promised the girl theyd get married and he had sex with her. This happened with like two more girls.
My brothers a shitty liar and there's a shitnton of red flags so at the same Time I feel for these girls. They could do better.
Because women sometimes stumble on their own impulses. Sometimes he’s just really hot and we want to sleep with him and give in to it. There’s usually a surplus of men always willing to entertain us if we are really bored. So it’s not like we have to go without.
Vetting like that doesn't really work, it just puts off the people who are genuine and doesn't put off those who are willing to lie now for the long-term gain.
I dated a guy for 3 months talked for 6 and he left me the moment I told him no to sex because I wasn’t ready yet saying “ I just really wanted to fuck you”
Because a lot of the men they are attracted to are the ones looking for a hookup, and they are good at hiding their intentions. There may be plenty of men that are looking for a relationship, but if they aren't the ones the women are attracted to they aren't going to enter into the picture.
Men lie to get laid. The dm dick pic is a stereotype you've heard about. The majority is guys that will go on a few dates, get a week or three of hook ups and "dates" out of someone, and then just ghost them or become flaky to the point that they're not worth engaging with.
Not saying that doesn't happen because I'm sure it does but that's also a typical amount of time to get to know someone enough to know if it's gonna work for longer term.
There are women in my past that probably thought I was a fuck boy after things didn't work out. Truth is, I was always looking for the right connection and I wasn't lying to get into bed.
The problem is the numbers. Men vastly outnumber women on dating platforms, and women often get their inboxes stuffed full of messages from men who…want to stuff their inboxes IRL. Ergo women have to sort through all these dudes and oftentimes completely miss the genuine dudes who do want an actual relationship.
Wanting a relationship is like wanting a job offer.
Why do people go on interviews if they won't get an offer? The same reason women go on dates with men who won't be official with them.
Those same men may hire someone else better suited
For the same reason successful criminals don't walk around screaming about how they robbed a bank last week. If they couldn't act they wouldn't get hookups.
There is no timeline on when a woman can wait to have sex where they won’t still risk getting dropped after. Well except I guess waiting for marriage (but outside of religious people, who does that anymore), but even that can end poorly if there wasn’t really an emotional commitment from the man.
Been happening for centuries.
If a guy is emotionally unavailable or an avoidant type person, it will always end poorly.
Because men lie and manipulate women into thinking they want to be in a relationship
Then the woman finds out after they have sex or are together for a bit that the guy is keeping his options open and has no intention of being in a relationship with them
Vetting can be a lot more complicated than expected, it’s a bit of an ever evolving balancing act. Men can lie about their true intentions for a long time, but simultaneously plenty of men with long term intentions will give up on you if it seems you’re playing to hard to get.
You can do the vetting process better than 90% of every other woman in a good relationship and still just get unlucky.
Men will lie to get sex.
Men will pretend to be your friend to get in a relationship with you.
And as for the "good ones", the "bad ones" know how to imitate yall pretty well.
Though I prefer not to group men like that, because so many of the "bad ones" think they're good and reasonable and "if the woman would just give him what he wanted, he wouldn't HAVE to lie, so it's really her fault for being so stuffy" or they respect a woman only until she does something he doesn't like, then it's every curse and slur under the sun, throwing things etc.
Personally, I don't have a difficult time finding men because I've simply stopped looking. It's not worth risking my safety and mental stability for some subpar sex and a man who thinks it's my job to take care of him and do all the emotional labor in the relationship.
So many men think they're better than the majority of their gender, but they rarely are.
This is so true, I’ve had a man threaten to end himself to make me stay & to trigger my “nurturing” side. I’ve had men wait months and months just to behave in an abusive manner. I’ve encountered anything and everything under the sun, but one thing rings true time and time again - if someone wants something, they will do anything to get it.
People lie to get what they want. I’m personally not in a place for a relationship right now and I’m pretty upfront about my intentions on my dating profiles
In a word, passion. Passion is a very potent factor in determining partner and frankly alot of the "hook up" guys are actually better at passion than alot of the guys typically looking for a long term relatio ship.
If it burns hot it can reduce the effectiveness of proper vetting, if its a cool passion its easy to ignore the overall benefits of the partner.
Basically guys typically initiate physical contact and the guys looking for nothing but a hookup are more willing and able to initiate this intimacy, if women were more willing to make the first move with a guy that doesnt try for that it would probably resort in better more long lasting relationships, obviously this would include vetting factor
You’re asking questions like all situations are exactly the same. They aren’t. Sometimes a “passion” guy is finally ready for a relationship and settles down, sometime they don’t. Sometimes the most confident person in the room just wants a hookup, sometimes they don’t. Some people will talk to a woman for over 6 months trying to get in her pants and it doesn’t matter how long it takes cuz they already have an active booty call. Some people give up right away like you say you do. The issue is people mislead, not that we aren’t “vetting” people enough
Another thing to consider, women like intimacy too so even if theyre trying to avoid intimacy it can cause feelings of frustration with their partner that they dont always understand the cause of, same for men. People forget how important intimacy is but what is defined as "intimacy" can warp and change overtime, an older couple may get intimate fulfillment from simply sitting together on a deck on a cool evening talking, but more youthful partners may need physical contact, sexual contact even to feel fulfilled
Dating apps have entirely wrecked the human approach to pair bonding. I met my wife right at the advent of phone dating apps, so we didn't use apps, but we did use websites, from a desktop/laptop computer. It was intoxicating as a guy. You could message a handful of girls, get a date with one or two of them, and see where it goes. There were always new profiles to look through.
This same thing, but with the ease of a smartphone? Goodness, the allure would be out of this world. And I can't even imagine from a woman's perspective, being able to look through and choose an almost unending source of men.
I really appreciated dating sites, as it made things easier for me to meet and strike up conversations and find common interests with girls, but...I'm not sure anymore that on a societal level, making dating so easy has been a good thing. There's too much of "I wonder if the next guy/girl could be better?" mindset.
Our daughter is 14, and just getting into a dating age. The closer to dating she gets, the more I hate modern dating. I think it wrecks people's mindsets on what dating is *for*. The thrill of the neverending initial butterflies-in-stomach stages makes people forget that dating is *for* finding a long term partner.
Finally someone else who has a similar take! I remember exchanging emails with a couple guys... and waiting til morning to hit send so it didn't seem like I was desperate. 🤣
But now everyone is keeping their options open because finding ANY connection is so easy.
So I ditched the dating apps because even if I met someone I could date, I felt like they were always keeping their options open so our "relationship" (if you could even call it that) never went past surface level.
The second that I closed Bumble and chose to go after a group of people who had similar hobbies, I kid you not... I met my next serious boyfriend.
And I almost missed him because of all the "emotional damage" the dating apps did to me. (I found myself stringing him along in order to not sound desperate). Thankfully we found each other!
Because at the end of the day all people are just hormone driven monkeys who will look past the most glaringly obvious red flags when they have the hots for somebody, and women are no exception.
Whether its somebody just looking to hook up, or its somebody who is interested in a relationship but is just a toxic mfer, I cannot tell you the amount of times I’ve immediately spotted the brightest of red flags in people and told my friends, and they’ll go for that person anyways and give the shocked pikachu face when things come to fruition. And you know what? I’m no different when it was my turn to be hooked on someone
Once you get hooked on someone, you’ll find any reason to explain away warning signs so you can try and be with them. For most of us this is just something you grow to overcome as your brain develops, for others they’re just lucky to have gotten hooked onto a decent person, and still others never seem to learn
I ignored all the red flags of my ex who turned out to be a horrible person. All my friends and family told me she was bad for me, but I didn't listen bc I was blinded by horniness and loneliness so I can understand why they would do that.
What if a guy won't talk to you and blocks you after you don't sleep with him (and he really made no moves to do so, besides a bit of dirty talk at the table), after making what he later claimed were jokes (online) about hooking up for weeks, but claims he wasn't looking for just sex when questioned? The reason he gave was that he was attracted to me but I seemed like a "stalker type." I never got called a "stalker type" by anyone else before.
Just because I have a hard time finding orange juice doesn’t mean I’m buying beer.
You can not sleep with anyone and still have a hard time finding a guy who wants a relationship. Rejecting every slut won’t make a guy who wants you appear.
Lots of people on both sides are in denial about how attractive, smart, and pleasant they are. Lots of other people like to lie about the circumstances of their breakups to catch attention on reddit. Still others are genuinely kinda clueless and have no idea what they want or what they're doing.
Generally people who have their shit together, are decently fun and pleasant, and who have integrity *and* want to be dating aren't struggling super hard.
My personal potentially incendiary take is that people focus on sex as a litmus test when they should be looking at everything else. Obviously you should dump creeps and pests, but if you're focusing on sex and the having and the denying of it, that's what you're gonna see. Sex appeal and skill are great, but they are not as valuable as patience, kindness, money management, honesty, and sincerity.
You should prioritize a life partner who does the dishes without being told, and who respects your money, not a partner who fucks nasty. Both are important, but it's easier to sort through the genuinely good people for freaks than the other way around.
Women want sex too. If you go on a couple of dates with someone, like then, and they say they like you, sex should not need to be withheld to a certain point so they can prove they are committed. The issue is that some people will feign interest in continuing a relationship when their goal is sex. Maybe they’re looking for a relationship but have already decided you’re “not the one” but still find you attractive so want to have sex. The issue is they keep that secret.
I’m not a hookup person. I met a guy online, we talked a lot over two weeks, ended up having sex on the first date, dated a year and a half, it was definitely a relationship. Early sex doesn’t have to mean hookup but both parties have to be honest about what they want/how they feel about the other person.
So… my guess is that women tend to select men they find attractive.
Women on average rate 80% of men as below average attractiveness.
So that means they only find 20% of all men above average in attractiveness.
That means that 20% of men are getting selected by most of the women most of the time.
Those 20% of men have absolutely no incentive to settle down. Name one tangible thing that a sexually satisfied single guy would gain by being in a committed relationship.
So there’s this runaway effect where women compete with each other for the top men available to them, and that results in a permanent loss condition for all of them.
I hate even bringing this up as it partially confirms all the INCEL bullshit, but men and women both operate on attraction in dating. It’s not just physical looks, but personality as well. An attractive guy with a fun, friendly personality can talk their way into a woman’s pants with relatively minimal effort, and the “I’m looking for a relationship” lie is extremely easy to pull off because they genuinely may be looking for a relationship, just not with every girl they go out with. The “I met a guy who wants to be in a relationship just like me” is easy to believe and the desire to keep him interested can lead them to believing “have sex or he will leave” because that actually does happen. I’ve known guys that have a “Three Date Rule”; if they don’t have sex or at least a BJ by the third date, they just drop the girl…and these were guys that wanted to be in relationships. But then again, they really just wanted consistent sex without effort.
The best quality women don't have this problem.
Men are often begging them for relationships.
Women who only get used for sex is the female equivalent of men stuck in the friend zone.
- they are not deemed valuable enough for a relationship.
First part of the problem is that women are not attracted to men that want a relationship.
I am not anti having a good time, however if you don’t hookup than guys would be forced to consider relationships.
Second part is Desirable guys know with the powers of the internet there will always be someone else that will fuck them so they don’t have to build their relationship skills.
I don’t know where the balance lies between sexual freedom and building relationships something for consideration.
Because sexual chemistry is important too and not many people want to wait a month or more to test the waters? I feel like I vet men pretty thoroughly and I'm not alone in that. Why do you think there are so many posts whining about womens standards being too high? The comments here have already devolved into incel rhetoric.
Basically the same reason so many dudes claim its difficult to find good women. They want a woman in her early 20s who is slim, pretty, bubbly, smart, hard working, doting, faithful, with no vices, and a very high sex drive. Meanwhile they are just some average guy.
Yeah this is just wrong. SO many men will take just about any woman that comes along it’s not even funny. Problem is on dating apps especially they will never respond or “get bored” talking to you before they even get to know you at all. They want to be wowed and whatever else through an app with a stranger.
Like the op said I don’t personally have super high standards either. Have most of your teeth, don’t have more than 3 kids, don’t weigh more than me while being shorter, and I think that’s pretty much it.
I’m willing to give most women a chance but they arnt willing to do the same.
Bro my standards are has a pulse, doesn't weigh more than me, and has something in common, but the most difficult part about that is the have something in common.
Because the men who just want to hook up are more attractive and thus more desirable to women than the men who want a relationship with them. If a guy just wants to hookup it’s probably because he does not find the woman attractive enough to date, implying that he is “out of her league.” The guy who is willing to date the woman is implying that she is within or above his league, hence why he wants to lock her down. I think most women would rather just try their luck with the guy they are more attracted to, which is understandable.
Because short term pleasure is a lot easier to achieve than long term commitment and its easy to get for most average women without any sort of serious issues. If most average men cld do that they wld do the same so idc lmao.
I really believe that if men and women just stopped listening to all the crap dating advice out there like, play hard to get, wait 24 hours before texting back, make them work for your attention, then dating would be significantly easier and less stressful.
Because they don’t want men who want relationships. There’s no challenge in that. They want to be the woman who is SO valuable that she can convert the playboy into a one-woman man.
They COULD solve their own “problems” quite easily by selecting men for their actual values. As you point out, there is no shortage of men who want exactly what they want. Instead, they seek out men who are coveted by all women; men who have options. Then they act like they wonder why they can’t get a man to settle down. They know fully well why. They just don’t want to admit that they do it to themselves. It’s easier to blame men for women’s choices.
You're looking for the state of friendship, that's the testing phase.
At no point should anyone be immediately jumping into a relationship with someone y'all can't play marjo kart with, or order 2 dozen wings and some mozzarella sticks with before an epic movie.
Problem is, that takes effort and has a risk of rejection and for some reason women don't wanna play that game, they want men to play it for em. Or they're in that relationship to be treated to free shit, and not because they love a guy.
The whole set up is currently fucked beyond belief.
Simple
If the only way to get laid is to say you want a relationship. People are going to pretend to want a relationship because that's a bad incentive
Realistically, the only way to win this game is for women collectively to hold off so that the only way to get laid is to get into a relationship
This is also why prostitution has so much resistance
(Men who just want sex will not put up with anything if prostitution is on the table and instead just go straight to prostitution)
What's bizarre to me is trusting someone enough - let alone having actual feelings - to have the most intimate experience in life. Why not just stay home with a toy? Someone you don't know is essentially a human toy. A very unsafe way to mess around ultimately.
Because women want the best guys, and those guys usually are talking to a bunch of girls just like them. Guys say similar stuff just with different qualities.
I do feel at the end of the day we would be happier with everyone getting paired up with someone on their level but seems not to be the trend in modern society.
Two facts that most Redditors will downvote even though they’re 100% true with a plethora of credible sources:
1. The more sexual partners we have, the less we are able to imprint and build a lasting relationship. Humans imprint - it is real. Both men and women, more partners = less likelihood of long term success.
2. Woman closing-in on (or exceeding) 30 are much more hasty to try and find a suitable partner to start having children with, often resulting in much less careful examination of their sexual partners. Men, to a lesser degree, experience this too, but more intensely when approaching 40.
Anyone saying these are false are either lying, ignorant, or are weaponizing their deliberate incompetence by refusing to look into the data.
TL;DR at the end of the day we humans are just dumb animals either flourishing or suffering from our instincts, we are at the mercy of our environment and the decisions of our younger selves.
I don't think it's a woman exclusive problem. I'm sure people who are attractive and charming tend to have their pick of the litter, whisper sweet nothings, then bounce when they're done with you.
I think there's a big difference between what you hear as a "difficult time" and the experience of a difficult time. For myself and my friends, the vetting process is a big chunk of "the difficult time." A lot of us are not hooking up with these guys and then finding out that that's all they wanted.
A lot of people talk about how much attention women get, but ignore that most of it is not good. There's a lot of shit-sifting going on, even before we're actually interacting with the ones who give us the crazy stories. If you're on the apps, you don't bother with the ones who say that they're looking for "short-term fun" or "still figuring it out." You don't bother with the ones who don't have a face pic or a bio. You don't bother ones who stay in their bio that they won't be in your area for long. You don't bother with the ones who don't say anything about their interests. Those are literally non-factors. Then you move to communication.
You knock out the ones who immediately want to move to another app or straight to texting on the phone with no conversation. You knock out the ones that only text you after 9PM. You knock out the ones who turn conversations sexual at every opportunity. You knock out the ones who don't want to meet up or only want to meet up in someone's home. You knock out the ones who say things that are deal breakers for you. So not necessarily indicating that they only want to hook up, but other things that let you know a relationship with them wouldn't be successful.
Then you go on the dates. You knock out the ones who show behaviors that make you feel like you're incompatible. You knock out the ones who either don't want your input on the activity or don't want to put any effort into planning. You knock out the ones who can't make conversation. You knock out the ones who communicate super inconsistently.
So from this point, if you started with 75 potential people, you're down to like two. And those two will continue to see you in non-sexual settings. You'll talk all the time, about all kinds of things like family and traveling and things you want to try in the future and things you find interesting or important. You'll do that over the course of months. You figure out which one of the two feels better to be around and communicate with. And then you will decide that you feel comfortable sleeping with this person.
And after all that, you're still looking at a 50-50 shot that he was serious about seeing where this goes or he was a future faker and will ghost you after.
1) liars and manipulators exist
2) I'm one of the women who don't do hook-ups. I'm very picky and have standards and requirements for a potential partner, and I'm labeled as difficult and high maintenance.
Because they are lazy and superficial.
Everytime I read a complaint story here on reddit from a woman the described guy was Obviously only after Sex right from the start. The woman's main reason to pick that guy, was looks. Again and again the same story.
Last woman I dated , 2 dates was all it took to realize there’s no chemistry. She thought there was and kept trying to reinitiate for months. I get it being lonely sucks but so does being with the wrong person.
Lots of reasons: 1. They know what he wants but think they can change him. 2. He's a challenge. 3. If he won't be tied down, he must be worth tying down. 4. He lied at the start, and women have to find a balance between demonstrating they have a sex drive vs proving they won't just sleep withy anybody.
Because women want to chase someone that rides the line between out of her league, and obtainable.
Women have endless options thanks to social media and dating apps. If you had endless choices, you'd only choose the best. If a man commits too easily, the woman will then think she can do better, because logically, if the man was better than her (and able to get women as good or better than her) then he wouldn't really care if she left or not, cuz he can easily get another woman of her caliber.
People want want they can't have. A woman will ALWAYS treat you the best when she is trying to lock you down. This is also why married men say the sex died after the wedding or honeymoon. It's because she has your FULL, LEGAL commitment, and there's nothing left to win over. She has conquered you, and if you try to leave, she will take half or more of your resources.
I was married to a man for twelve years and had children with him before realizing he just wanted to hook up.
I'm not sure how much more vetting I could possibly have done.
Here's a question for your question, why is it that most women who "want a serious relationship" either don't respond, ghost after an hour, go on one date for free food or have a one night stand and then ghost, or when they do get into a relationship they treat their partner like shit and cheat on them? Answer to both your questions, both genders fucking suck, there's alot of really dogshit people in the world and most people are two faced liars and vetting someone doesn't do shit, they can tell you whatever you want to hear and keep it going until they get bored or are caught in the lie
I was looking for a serious partner for years before I got with mine
The amount of times i thought I had a decent guy or girl that I wouldn't mind living with they pulled out something that went against my values or I couldn't deal with mentally, physically, verbally, or sexually
It shouldn't be easy but you also have to understand hook up culture is a thing and people will lie to get laid
Had a dude say he was serious about us and that I was always on his mind and as soon as I said can we take the physical (read: sexual) approach in person not through the phone and he fucking blocked me the next day and I found after three weeks of us just talking and him being so romantic that he was telling everyone he was single and had slept with two girls during that time
Women receive gratification/ego boost from sex just like men, I know multiple women who have admitted to having sex with a lot of men because it raised their self-esteem.
It's almost like turning down all of the guys who genuinely want relationships is a bad idea. Of course your partner is going to want to have sex with you. That's part of the deal. The difference is a guy who only wants to have sex and a guy who wants to have sex with only you for the rest of your lives.
i have the same problem as a guy. women seem to just want hookups and nothing more. I seem to only attract walking red flags so maybe its the same for women who feel the same way.
I used to know a guy who would take multiple girls out in a day and give them the whole act about how they feel like the one, how he loves them and how he can see a future with them until they gave it up then he ghosted them. He didn't have a car. He would always have these girls pick him up. He told me it was so he could have a rotation of available sex and if the girl didn't make him go through it all, then it was easier on him. I always thought it was disgusting and depraved, but hey, it worked out for him on my girlfriend at the time.
They're complaining ABOUT the vetting process lol. Like most things, the sexual intentions of men fall on a bell curve. It's easy to weed out the guys all the way over in the "sends dick pics in the first week" camp. But most guys fall in the middle to varying degrees. Guys who sorta want a relationship, but sorta aren't ready to settle down either. Statistically they're the most likely to exist among singles and the most difficult to vet because they often don't feel strongly enough one way or another to even know what they want. Guys who aren't sure what they want long-term, still want to get laid, but aren't blatant enough about that priority to be in the wannabe pickup artist range are the MAJORITY and very good at camoflauging for the sake of a fun time.
The amount of times I’ve been lied to for sex is unbelievable. If I could somehow grab a bar graph from the hypothetical life database to show exactly how many times every woman in the world has been lied to for sex and post it online, maybe men and women could understand each other a bit better.
I (34m) personally would like a relationship, very much.
I have requirements such as emotional development and seeing if we are compatible in bed.
That all takes time and effort to understand.
It's been a few times now. I'm not duping women. They just didn't live up to my ridiculously low standards of being accountable for their own behaviours, and it takes time to see that.
It's not my responsibility to fix women, it's my responsibility to pick well.
An example of something that could be misrepresented as lying.
Most of it is lying though.
It’s a mix of inexperience and being attracted to exciting qualities over other more important values, my whole life me and my friends would see women we know choose the worst guys but we get it, they look good, are funny, and are cool and have a lot of friends, but what was surprising is that these women would boast how nice and sweet the guy is and we’re like duh of course he is you’re his new conquest until he’s bored of you, when you’re attracted to someone you will easily not see their flaws that’s where experience comes in and teaches you about relationships and your choices as you get older.
So, for example, you meet a guy via some friends.
You go out a couple of times on your own, you also habg out with the friend group. When you have a bad day, he invites you for dinner at his place and cooks for you. He says he wants to take it slow and he just wants to cuddle and kiss, so you do that at first. You start hooking up around date 8, he makes sure you stay over, makes you breakfast in the morning, gives you a loaf of home-baked bread when you leave. He kisses you in front of your friends, he mentions his family and that he told them about you.
Two months in he says he does not want to be in a relationship and that we are perfectly happy and why we have to put a label on it.
This is a story out of my life. Would you have thought he just wanted a situationship after that behaviour?
Feminine hypergamy.
They want men that are high value. They never want to “settle” for someone actually on their level. The ultimate feminine aspiration is to find someone extremely out of their league that will devote themselves to them completely. Outside of this fantasy, those men have options, and will be next to impossible for a woman the pin down unless she’s genuinely worth it to him (<1% chance). Women aren’t bad or wrong or unethical for this, just in the same way men aren’t bad or wrong or unethical for wanting to have sex with a variety of women and valuing sexual novelty. This is simply the way it is.
People date then find themselves incompatible for relationships.
Some people run too quickly into the physical in my opinion. Some people can efficiently seperate sex and love , hookups and relationships. Others cannot. Knowing where you fit counts a great deal.
When I was single I didn’t do hookups. I did try to go for character. I needed to not be physically repulsed but there had to be some attraction or else I wouldn’t experience arousal. That guy would make a better online only pal. Or we could completely part ways.
Charm counted for a lot.
Communication accounts for tons.
As a woman I will say some women do over estimate themselves. I grew up in a place where a particular type of beauty was at a premium. I moved about a 45 minute flight a way with slightly different standards suddenly I was in the high demand category. *When I visited places outside of California it was even wilder!* It was really eye opening about how much easier dating life could be. It did *not* make finding relationships easier because there was a higher volume of men and I still had to pick someone I genuinely liked and cared about.
They're all chasing after the same top like 10 to 20% of men, and those men are drowning in options so they have no reason to settle into a relationship.
If women weren't so incredibly picky, then the entire problem would be solved for everyone.
There's definitely a sizeable portion of men who just want to hook up and lie about it to get laid, but I think there's a very significant portion of situations where the guy goes on a couple dates with the girl, realizes she's not relationship material, and uses the "not ready for a relationship" line to avoid the awkwardness of stating that he's just not that into her, which then creates this whole experience for women where they think a lot of men aren't into relationships, when they're really just getting rejected from candidacy for a relationship
I don't use that excuse but I can understand why men would. Women are ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE at taking rejection.
I think it's a really shitty thing to do bc if she likes you she will wait. I've had a guy tell me this and my response was to just wait for him. And i waited for a LONG time bc he said he liked me like I'm talking close to a year. Yeah it was dumb but I based that decision off of the lie he told to avoid rejecting me but i had no idea so I waited. Then he got a girlfriend. It would have saved me so much time and pain if he was straight up with me.
"Hell hath no fury like a woman, scorned."
Right, like if a guy breaks up with you because he needs to “focus” on something he’s already doing like school or work, he’s just not that into you and trying to let you down gently.
This is the harsh truth. I'm no Timothy Chalamet, but honestly all the girls I've met off the apps who complained that no man wants to be serious have been slightly below my league. The really attractive ones struggling to settle down complain that they can't find anyone that THEY deem good enough. And it's obvious they keep going after guys that are more attractive than them and have higher standards. And the guys are willing to sleep with them, but don't find them good enough to be serious with.
There’s a lot of men who do what to be in a relationship but not with you. But they are happy to keep you around for a bit. Or there’s the guys who say they are no hook ups, turns out they want a fwb, when you say no hook ups you mean you want a relationship. It’s all very complicated. Women and men do vet work each other but sometimes people aren’t honest with others or themselves.
I have a lot of good men in my life who take relationships seriously. But they all got snagged out of the dating pool young, lol. All of them got with their long-term partners as teens or early 20s.
Never underestimate the persistence of a liar with a boner.
Dealing with the police is such a pain in the ass.
Wow, I'm surprised you could fit two jokes at once
I was gonna say this. It’s trivially easy to lie for a few weeks if there’s a reward at the end of it.
fuckin truuuuuu. for some reason, humans are non stop motivated to do the sex they want. it's impressive how much we seem to care about fulfilling our desires.
Solid bumper sticker
That is exactly what women do. But many men pretend to be interested in a relationship in order to get laid. It’s exhausting. That’s what “difficult time” means.
Exactly, if men were more up-front about wanting casual sex, and the women who like casual sex weren't shamed for it, this whole issue wouldn't exist. Sure, there would still be more men wanting casual sex than women, but it would be a hell of a lot better than what we have now.
Conclusion is ppl trash
Conclusion is be upfront about wanting casual sex so the rest of us can get back to wanting skill based and competitive sex.
Lmao "skilled based" 😂
Lmao "competitive"? With whom? Do we score qualitatively or quantitatively?
To answer both of your questions, yes.
That’s right, folks! It’s time for the sex Olympics 2024!!!! Please nobody tell me if this actually a real thing. I don’t want to know!
You sure that isn't just the regular Olympics? I mean, think about it.
Honestly I'm not 100% sure that there would still be more men looking for hookups than women. There's a lot of pressure on men to be looking for hookups (among other men) and that leads to men trying hookups bc they think they'd have to want to (bc seemingly every other man does, and you gotta "bag the hoe" to be cool.) On the other hand, women have pressure (from both other men and women) to "not be slutty" and preserve themselves, so a lot of people that would be interested in hookups never even try. Maybe it would still be true that men look for more hookups, but we genuinely have no way of telling bc societal norms and pressure make it so having a true sample is impossible
It’s also not just pressure though and it’s not always so easy for women to be totally transparent about their wants for other reasons. As a man I’ve never worried about my safety going on a tinder date or whatever and hooking up with a stranger. A girl on the other hand will absolutely have those sort of worries in her mind. If she decides that she doesn’t want to hook up during the date or go a certain distance sexually she has to wonder and worry if he will take no for an answer or even get violent at being told no. This is why women on dating apps will often say in the bios that they don’t want to just have a hookup, and still be totally willing to have a hookup. Also where does she go to hookup? If she goes to his place that obviously feels very unsafe to be on his turf where he is in control but if you bring him to yours now he knows where you live and can stalk you if you reject him and he doesn’t take it well. Thus for most women casual sex can’t really be truly casual in the same way it can be for men.
You are so spot on. I am open to casual hookups, but men are so quick to assume that I don't feel comfortable going on a date. I want to meet people before deciding
That’s not always the case to the point that it may *usually* not be the case. I’ve many times been interested in a woman for an actual relationship, but then she gets really clingy and makes me feel overwhelmed. That’s usually around the same time sex starts. I don’t know if it’s the hormones that sex brings it out, but if you don’t like anxious attachment types, like many men don’t, you usually won’t even see that side of her until you have sex. Also, as a younger man, you don’t know the difference between lust and actually genuinely liking the person. So, what was just a bit of quirkiness at 1.5 months in, becomes annoyance and a dread to be around at 3 months. Once you hit a certain age you should recognize the difference, but not all guys do, I’m in my 40’s and it seems like all my divorced friends go through the puppy love stage with some girl they think they arw “the one” very early, but are trying to get rid of them a month later at least once after becoming single again. Guys do that a lot, where they are all about a woman than see a different side to her or just stop and think and then they are out, women seem to be a lot quicker to blow their life up and lean into early relationship romance (U-Haul lesbians is a thing for a reason), where men try to hit the breaks and take things at a slower emotional pace after the initial emotional rush.
Went through that with my girlfriend. She's never been in a relationship that didn't involve moving in at the 3-6 month mark (if not sooner). It was an adjustment for her when I quite clearly told I wasn't interested in moving in with her, even though that was also a conversation we had before we began dating.
Damn, I can't imagine moving in with someone that quickly. I'd be hesitant at the year mark, let alone a few months.
My brother's girlfriend moved in after two weeks. She also claims she hasn't slept alone for longer than a week since she was 16. So that's bound to end well ...
Well that's a lot of red flags...
So, about the timeline. for the first 90 days you and your new partner are in the lust phase, still trying to be the person the other is looking for. After 90 days both of your real personalities start to show, and if you can still stand to be around them after 90 days, you are going to, most likely, keep dating. But the 90 day trial period is, and always will be my go to.
This- imagine having a "friend" for over a decade and then they finally come out and say they have been waiting for you and you find out their last relationship went south because they gave their partner low esteem by constantly comparing them to am idealized version of you. When you made it VERY CLEAR you only wanted friendship. Then they DEMAND you give them a chance and let them "prove" they are what you "need". Yeah, its pretty fucked up.
Having been down this road sometimes you stick it out for a month or two before things become physical and the sex and physical chemistry is not good. It could be one or both partners just not matching up but putting in that much time and effort only to find out it’s not gonna go anywhere is a poor use of time.
“A month” doesn’t seem like much effort for what is supposed to be a decades long relationship…
I only have so much time. You can’t sample every potential relationship for months or years. If after a month you can tell it’s not going anywhere, it’s ok to move on
To each their own but I’m not going to have sex with someone I’ve only known for a month.
When people complain that "XYZ is HARD!" it carries the implication that in their minds "XYZ" *should* be easy. But finding a life partner is probably the single most important decision most people make in their lives. It really SHOULDN'T be easy. And anybody who says "well back in \[high school, college, or insert your preferred olden tymey period here\] it was easy to find a partner" is looking at the past through some seriously rose-colored glasses. Nope, it's not easy. The most important choices in life rarely are.
I think you're missing the point of the phenomenon OP is talking about. It's not that women find it hard to find a compatible partner, it's that they face the additional challenge of having to weed out men who are posturing as potential partners when in reality they're just looking for sex. Figuring out if someone is a good match for marriage is difficult no matter who you are, but that issue is very specific to women.
Most people don’t set their standards high enough and end up with someone who isn’t right for them, or even makes them miserable. Sometimes I feel bad for being single, like it’s a personal failure, but then I remember there are a ton of guys I COULD date, but who do not meet my standards. And when I look around, I realize I’m not at all jealous of other people’s unhappy relationships.
Then there's the flip side of that of people who have unrealistically high and superficial standards. Those people will never be happy with anyone because no human is perfect.
I feel like I am in bizarro world with some of these comments, where men who only want a hookup will wait months and years for sex and promptly drop you after, but men who want a relationship will drop you after 2 or 3 dates due to no sex.
The other issue is, sometimes they leave because they waited to have sex with you, and when they finally did, it wasn’t that good and they lost interest.
It’s strange to me because sex almost always gets better with time, when you’re closer to the other person and know their likes/dislikes better. You kinda get into a groove after the first few times and when romantic feelings get even stronger, it’s great.
I guess it’s always a bit weird the first time, placement never quite smooth, you find yourself not quite in the right positions or wanting to switch a little early or late. but I’m also gonna say from experience that you can tell right away that this woman is a complete dead fish and is never gonna move or do anything, complete adverse to any types of kinks, or in the woman’s case, this guy is not gonna dominate me the way I want him to/make love to me and cuddle the way I want him to. and I don’t have the time or energy to correct this.
Oh definitely! I think you can have bad sex the first time for sure. But if you like the person otherwise, sometimes you can work on meeting each others’ needs more. I feel like first times have been average to above average for most of my actual relationship partners, but sex always got better the more time we spent together.
I love sex and want to have a lot of it, but even if the sex was meh and I love the person it’s not even remotely close to a dealbreaker. It’s just one thing out of so many. Level of effort still matters though. There’s a difference between being bad at it, and not trying.
Same. Exploring each others sexuality can take a long time and always gets better. Dropping someone after the first time sounds more to me like insecurity.
Or self-sabotage
100% mine and my husband's first time was awful. We still laugh about it now.
These people don't have enough sex to understand this comment.
What is this sex thing everyone is talking about? I haven't played the latest Pokemon Gen yet, so I'm not familiar with those (in case sex is a pokemon)
It evolves from virginus, and its last form is laidmon.
if I drop a woman after a few dates, it's because I have a pretty solid list of ~~red flags~~ deal breakers, and I will not hesitate to move on them. I am looking for a few very specific things, and if a woman doesn't have them... well, my Steam backlog is only getting longer. And just in case people think I am some gross basement-dweller who "only dates 10/10s", I am talking about things like having no hobbies or being extra shitty to the waiter.
The “no hobbies” red flag has been showing up far too often lately. I don’t understand how women (and men too I’m sure) go through life without actually being interested in anything.
It’s definitely men too. It’s increasingly ~~encouraged~~ pushed. Social media and other distractions becoming more sophisticated all the time at hooking people in and keeping them locked in instead of making or doing something in private, irl or with some friends away from algorithms constantly mining them for clicks or advertising opportunities. Consumption is the great American pastime and I’m sure this is increasingly true in other countries. A lot of hobbies are free or close enough to free, require no subscriptions and are intrinsically rewarding. It may be that people with hobbies tend to get snatched up by other people with hobbies. Most women I know have hobbies, a good handful of them are prolifically creative, very skilled at their avocation, and most of them are taken. I would say the guys I know with hobbies also tend to be taken.
Nobody really “has no hobbies”, they just have hobbies that seem too boring or embarrassing to discuss. Whatever you fill your free time with, or make time for, is effectively a hobby.
I wouldn’t call watching tv or scrolling a phone passively a hobby because you aren’t engaged in what you are doing at all.
Exactly. If you're going to "lose the guy" because you won't sleep with him immediately, he's probably not the kind of guy who's looking for a relationship. Hook up culture has been so normalized in some social circles that demanding sex early in relationships is seen as normal not a red flag.
It’s Reddit none of these people interact with humans face to face.
Think about it this way. One man is committed to an objective while the other realizes he doesn’t like the person and leaves once he’s seen enough
I've had a man pretend to be interested in me, and engage in friendly conversation and flirting for over two years. Without wanting a relationship and just wanting to hookup If I didn't constantly remind myself that he only wanted sex, which he admitted to when I asked him, I probably would have fallen for it. Many more men will lie and say they want a relationship
How does this help finding a relationship? You avoid a hook up, sure, but that's not the complaint.
You are right, this by itself will not necessarily help find a relationship.
Look what sub this is m8.
You wouldn’t believe how much effort some men will put into a woman if they think she’ll sleep with him. Honestly, I don’t get it either, but of us have had at least one dude who’s put in *months* of effort only to turn into a different person once they’ve had sex. I think also some may actually mean the effort but then value the woman less once she’s “given it up” - a degree of very deep-seated misogyny I guess I go the other way with it, if I’m attracted to a guy I’ll sleep with him as soon as we both want to. If he’s going to ghost or get weird or be disrespectful or whatever during/after sex, might as well know that before I’ve invested emotionally. It can work out - I slept with my OH of coming up to four years on the second date. I wasn’t looking for a relationship 😂
Because the complaint is the desired men don't want a relationship.
Don’t want a relationship ….\*with them\*
This is absolutely correct, but many women will lie to themselves about this fact
Because the men they "want" are out of their league. The sheer number of single mom looking for men with a stable job and income twice theirs without offering anything commensurate is out of this world.
You'd be horrified to know how many men are out there looking for a woman with her own house so that he can live there for free. Everyone gets used. I'm a single mom and I now will not date someone who doesn't earn as much as I do. I'm not a gold digger, I just don't want to be a sugar momma.
As it should be. Edit: The last two sentences I mean. :D
Yup. way to go girl. I married a cute and adorable single mom with one kid, she's really stable with her own house and car, she told me most guys are intimidated with her, she said she's openly and blatantly interested in me because I also have a car and my own house even though I'm a socially awkward shy and an anti-social single dad with a daughter.
Ah I think the term for that is ‘hobosexual’ It’s fairly common in dirtbaggy/outdoorsy world
Single older man, no kids, 6 figures. I won't date single moms. I won't date women with minimal earnings. I won't date unhealthy women. That rules out the vast majority of women. Oh well.. life is peaceful. Lol
Do you by chance have blue eyes, and work in finance?
I'm 33 lol the Catfish are out in full force, and I recently saw a 22 year old with 3 kids. *woof* #1 obvious secret to attracting men: lose weight.
tis true yet we get banned for wrongthink
You are being naive here. It’s way more complex than just find a guy who wants a relationship. How can a woman determine who wants a relationship and who doesn’t if there are people who lie about it and guys who don’t really know what they want. I want a relationship but that doesn’t mean I will want a relationship with any woman just like these women don’t just want just any man who wants a relationship. Most women don’t respond to dick pics and most of the time they won’t respond to you up unless they have an established thing with that guy or they are looking to hook up themselves.
This might shock you but Men will lie in order to get laid And boobs don't grant the power to detect lies
It is difficult. In college I had a guy pursue me for a year despite multiple rejections. I figured no guy would pursue someone an entire year just to have sex with them…. …..Nope, we had sex and he told everybody. Much like with a lot of women, a lot of men are good liars/actors.
Okay what the fuck is wrong with those men? That's straight up predatory.
Welcome to the world man, it’s men’s and women both Just get a girl you like, and get out of the dating market asap, find your own happiness
I think the main issue isn’t that people “only want hookups” and I actually don’t think most men who ghost a woman after sex were just in it for the hook up. People do vet their potential dates so if they want a relationship they weed out hookup casual requests. But relationships for most people they want them to have sex involved. So eventually you’re going to have sex. And sexual incompatibility is just kinda easy to tell. I think it’s normal that two people both looking for relationships would date and if the connection of there they’re gonna have sex maybe early maybe waiting 6 months but if that sex isn’t good it’s a huge reason to just stop immediately. Women and men can vet and insist on waiting but when the guy you’re so into has terrible sex skills and you aren’t in deep love and you do NOT feel like teaching him then it’s over. And yeah then people tend to cry and say “that person used me for sex” but more accurately the person had the sex and didn’t want more. Are there players who do it for ego boost yeah but I’m guessing it’s much more common two well meaning people seeking a life partner eventually bump uglies and no fireworks happen so why sit and force a relationship that’s lame.
I think this is a flawed view that's become pretty normalized. You don't have to click sexually on the first go. I think people are wasting what could be great relationships because they aren't getting the instant gratification they've been told to expect. With every partner I've had in the past, the least satisfying time has usually been the first. I'm not looking to get overly specific, but you learn more about each other and do better over time.
I don’t want to have sex with someone I’m not deeply in love with. To each their own.
I don’t think you understand how well fuck boys can optimize. Yes, there’s the lazy “wanna fuck” strategy that rarely works. But, many many guys have the finesse to string a woman along by making her think a relationship is possible and that he’s just hesitant, usually with a made up heartthrob backstory that justifies their indecisiveness. Do that until you get laid, then ghost, rinse and repeat. It works with a much higher rate of success than the lazy strategy, but the trade off is that it’s more difficult to pull off. This is very difficult to screen for from the woman’s perspective, especially if the guy in question has had practice by the dozens before her.
>But, many many guys have the finesse to string a woman along by making her think a relationship is possible and that he’s just hesitant, usually with a made up heartthrob backstory that justifies their indecisiveness. Okay so this is going to hit with the same impact of "90% of gamblers quit right before they strike it rich" but sometimes you are just hesitant and the backstory that justifies your indecisiveness isn't made up. This was literally me. I just realized that it was me sometime after actually getting into a relationship and looking back on my behavior with the other people I had inadvertently strung along. Yes, I had just gotten out of a very long term relationship and moved to a new city where I was trying to reestablish myself. Yes, I was just looking to connect with people, rediscover intimacy and connection without jumping into a new relationship. Yes, I put my lucrative career in my bio. I was very straightforward that I was looking for a connection without a new relationship. I was also clear that this didn't entail sex. I just wanted to feel close with someone, have that spark of connection, be flirty, hold hands and feel like I had someone to care about. I also had bottom barrel self-esteem, had no idea what I was looking for, and when the "You said you're not looking for a relationship buuuut I want to make sure that I'm with someone who I potentially could have a relationship with" conversations inevitably happened I wasn't responding to anyone saying "There's absolutely no potential" because, quite frankly I had just forgotten what being in love, having real chemistry, felt like until it struck me a few months in. So here's a PSA for anyone who needs it: If you're actually looking for someone who would consider developing a long term relationship, don't pursue someone who just got out of an extremely long term relationship and is trying to fill the void their ex left in their life. They probably can't even be honest with themselves.
This, except that it's not even difficult to pull off. I've seen women do the same thing for different reasons and it's so easy to say "I'm interested in a relationship, but not just with anyone, and I'm not 100% convinced of you yet, I've been screwed over before". I don't condone this behavior, but even at above lazy fuckboy/girl level it is wildly easy to pull off. There are no repercussions for "dating" someone for a few weeks, acting like a doting bf/gf, and then texting/calling/meeting and saying "it's not you, it's me, but it's not working out", either.
I've seen this a lot among women friends. However, I've also seen many of those friends going back to the same type of men again and again and expecting different results. There's dual responsibility here, with the "fool me once...fool.me twice..." cliché being a key aspect of one of them. Insincere people - whether they be fuck boys or gold diggers (from a male point of view) - tend to share certain characteristics that aren't particularly hard to spot.
Could say the same of guys who spend money on women who don’t wanna date them and complain about getting led on. I don’t feel bad for them either at a certain point. Both kinds of people should learn from their mistakes.
Bc men will lie just to have sex
Because people lie to get what they want. Everyone over four should understand this. It’s not a difficult concept.
LoL bro! I have a core memory of some girls mom at our house making a scene because my brother promised the girl theyd get married and he had sex with her. This happened with like two more girls. My brothers a shitty liar and there's a shitnton of red flags so at the same Time I feel for these girls. They could do better.
Because women sometimes stumble on their own impulses. Sometimes he’s just really hot and we want to sleep with him and give in to it. There’s usually a surplus of men always willing to entertain us if we are really bored. So it’s not like we have to go without.
"I'm just a girl" is a reality many men need to understand
Vetting like that doesn't really work, it just puts off the people who are genuine and doesn't put off those who are willing to lie now for the long-term gain.
I dated a guy for 3 months talked for 6 and he left me the moment I told him no to sex because I wasn’t ready yet saying “ I just really wanted to fuck you”
Because a lot of the men they are attracted to are the ones looking for a hookup, and they are good at hiding their intentions. There may be plenty of men that are looking for a relationship, but if they aren't the ones the women are attracted to they aren't going to enter into the picture.
Men lie to get laid. The dm dick pic is a stereotype you've heard about. The majority is guys that will go on a few dates, get a week or three of hook ups and "dates" out of someone, and then just ghost them or become flaky to the point that they're not worth engaging with.
Not saying that doesn't happen because I'm sure it does but that's also a typical amount of time to get to know someone enough to know if it's gonna work for longer term. There are women in my past that probably thought I was a fuck boy after things didn't work out. Truth is, I was always looking for the right connection and I wasn't lying to get into bed.
The problem is the numbers. Men vastly outnumber women on dating platforms, and women often get their inboxes stuffed full of messages from men who…want to stuff their inboxes IRL. Ergo women have to sort through all these dudes and oftentimes completely miss the genuine dudes who do want an actual relationship.
Men pretend and literally act!! Like actor act, when u first meet them and that could be 3 months in or 2 years.
Wanting a relationship is like wanting a job offer. Why do people go on interviews if they won't get an offer? The same reason women go on dates with men who won't be official with them. Those same men may hire someone else better suited
Because liars gonna lie.
For the same reason successful criminals don't walk around screaming about how they robbed a bank last week. If they couldn't act they wouldn't get hookups.
There are many men not looking for hookups, but there aren’t many 6 foot rich and famous men not looking for hookups.
There is no timeline on when a woman can wait to have sex where they won’t still risk getting dropped after. Well except I guess waiting for marriage (but outside of religious people, who does that anymore), but even that can end poorly if there wasn’t really an emotional commitment from the man. Been happening for centuries. If a guy is emotionally unavailable or an avoidant type person, it will always end poorly.
Because men lie and manipulate women into thinking they want to be in a relationship Then the woman finds out after they have sex or are together for a bit that the guy is keeping his options open and has no intention of being in a relationship with them
You underestimate the bait-and-switch charm dudes present. You know, "The Game."
Vetting can be a lot more complicated than expected, it’s a bit of an ever evolving balancing act. Men can lie about their true intentions for a long time, but simultaneously plenty of men with long term intentions will give up on you if it seems you’re playing to hard to get. You can do the vetting process better than 90% of every other woman in a good relationship and still just get unlucky.
Men will lie to get sex. Men will pretend to be your friend to get in a relationship with you. And as for the "good ones", the "bad ones" know how to imitate yall pretty well. Though I prefer not to group men like that, because so many of the "bad ones" think they're good and reasonable and "if the woman would just give him what he wanted, he wouldn't HAVE to lie, so it's really her fault for being so stuffy" or they respect a woman only until she does something he doesn't like, then it's every curse and slur under the sun, throwing things etc. Personally, I don't have a difficult time finding men because I've simply stopped looking. It's not worth risking my safety and mental stability for some subpar sex and a man who thinks it's my job to take care of him and do all the emotional labor in the relationship. So many men think they're better than the majority of their gender, but they rarely are.
This is so true, I’ve had a man threaten to end himself to make me stay & to trigger my “nurturing” side. I’ve had men wait months and months just to behave in an abusive manner. I’ve encountered anything and everything under the sun, but one thing rings true time and time again - if someone wants something, they will do anything to get it.
People lie to get what they want. I’m personally not in a place for a relationship right now and I’m pretty upfront about my intentions on my dating profiles
In a word, passion. Passion is a very potent factor in determining partner and frankly alot of the "hook up" guys are actually better at passion than alot of the guys typically looking for a long term relatio ship. If it burns hot it can reduce the effectiveness of proper vetting, if its a cool passion its easy to ignore the overall benefits of the partner. Basically guys typically initiate physical contact and the guys looking for nothing but a hookup are more willing and able to initiate this intimacy, if women were more willing to make the first move with a guy that doesnt try for that it would probably resort in better more long lasting relationships, obviously this would include vetting factor
How does hooking up with the "hot passion" guys work out for women who want relationships?
You’re asking questions like all situations are exactly the same. They aren’t. Sometimes a “passion” guy is finally ready for a relationship and settles down, sometime they don’t. Sometimes the most confident person in the room just wants a hookup, sometimes they don’t. Some people will talk to a woman for over 6 months trying to get in her pants and it doesn’t matter how long it takes cuz they already have an active booty call. Some people give up right away like you say you do. The issue is people mislead, not that we aren’t “vetting” people enough
Another thing to consider, women like intimacy too so even if theyre trying to avoid intimacy it can cause feelings of frustration with their partner that they dont always understand the cause of, same for men. People forget how important intimacy is but what is defined as "intimacy" can warp and change overtime, an older couple may get intimate fulfillment from simply sitting together on a deck on a cool evening talking, but more youthful partners may need physical contact, sexual contact even to feel fulfilled
They do. Sometimes people lie.
Dating apps have entirely wrecked the human approach to pair bonding. I met my wife right at the advent of phone dating apps, so we didn't use apps, but we did use websites, from a desktop/laptop computer. It was intoxicating as a guy. You could message a handful of girls, get a date with one or two of them, and see where it goes. There were always new profiles to look through. This same thing, but with the ease of a smartphone? Goodness, the allure would be out of this world. And I can't even imagine from a woman's perspective, being able to look through and choose an almost unending source of men. I really appreciated dating sites, as it made things easier for me to meet and strike up conversations and find common interests with girls, but...I'm not sure anymore that on a societal level, making dating so easy has been a good thing. There's too much of "I wonder if the next guy/girl could be better?" mindset. Our daughter is 14, and just getting into a dating age. The closer to dating she gets, the more I hate modern dating. I think it wrecks people's mindsets on what dating is *for*. The thrill of the neverending initial butterflies-in-stomach stages makes people forget that dating is *for* finding a long term partner.
Finally someone else who has a similar take! I remember exchanging emails with a couple guys... and waiting til morning to hit send so it didn't seem like I was desperate. 🤣 But now everyone is keeping their options open because finding ANY connection is so easy. So I ditched the dating apps because even if I met someone I could date, I felt like they were always keeping their options open so our "relationship" (if you could even call it that) never went past surface level. The second that I closed Bumble and chose to go after a group of people who had similar hobbies, I kid you not... I met my next serious boyfriend. And I almost missed him because of all the "emotional damage" the dating apps did to me. (I found myself stringing him along in order to not sound desperate). Thankfully we found each other!
Because at the end of the day all people are just hormone driven monkeys who will look past the most glaringly obvious red flags when they have the hots for somebody, and women are no exception. Whether its somebody just looking to hook up, or its somebody who is interested in a relationship but is just a toxic mfer, I cannot tell you the amount of times I’ve immediately spotted the brightest of red flags in people and told my friends, and they’ll go for that person anyways and give the shocked pikachu face when things come to fruition. And you know what? I’m no different when it was my turn to be hooked on someone Once you get hooked on someone, you’ll find any reason to explain away warning signs so you can try and be with them. For most of us this is just something you grow to overcome as your brain develops, for others they’re just lucky to have gotten hooked onto a decent person, and still others never seem to learn
I ignored all the red flags of my ex who turned out to be a horrible person. All my friends and family told me she was bad for me, but I didn't listen bc I was blinded by horniness and loneliness so I can understand why they would do that.
What if a guy won't talk to you and blocks you after you don't sleep with him (and he really made no moves to do so, besides a bit of dirty talk at the table), after making what he later claimed were jokes (online) about hooking up for weeks, but claims he wasn't looking for just sex when questioned? The reason he gave was that he was attracted to me but I seemed like a "stalker type." I never got called a "stalker type" by anyone else before.
Girl, I hate to break it to you, but those weren't jokes.
He claimed they were, vehemently, but he was kind of a liar. I discovered a couple of other lies he'd told me after the fact.
Just because I have a hard time finding orange juice doesn’t mean I’m buying beer. You can not sleep with anyone and still have a hard time finding a guy who wants a relationship. Rejecting every slut won’t make a guy who wants you appear.
Lots of people on both sides are in denial about how attractive, smart, and pleasant they are. Lots of other people like to lie about the circumstances of their breakups to catch attention on reddit. Still others are genuinely kinda clueless and have no idea what they want or what they're doing. Generally people who have their shit together, are decently fun and pleasant, and who have integrity *and* want to be dating aren't struggling super hard. My personal potentially incendiary take is that people focus on sex as a litmus test when they should be looking at everything else. Obviously you should dump creeps and pests, but if you're focusing on sex and the having and the denying of it, that's what you're gonna see. Sex appeal and skill are great, but they are not as valuable as patience, kindness, money management, honesty, and sincerity. You should prioritize a life partner who does the dishes without being told, and who respects your money, not a partner who fucks nasty. Both are important, but it's easier to sort through the genuinely good people for freaks than the other way around.
Women want sex too. If you go on a couple of dates with someone, like then, and they say they like you, sex should not need to be withheld to a certain point so they can prove they are committed. The issue is that some people will feign interest in continuing a relationship when their goal is sex. Maybe they’re looking for a relationship but have already decided you’re “not the one” but still find you attractive so want to have sex. The issue is they keep that secret. I’m not a hookup person. I met a guy online, we talked a lot over two weeks, ended up having sex on the first date, dated a year and a half, it was definitely a relationship. Early sex doesn’t have to mean hookup but both parties have to be honest about what they want/how they feel about the other person.
So… my guess is that women tend to select men they find attractive. Women on average rate 80% of men as below average attractiveness. So that means they only find 20% of all men above average in attractiveness. That means that 20% of men are getting selected by most of the women most of the time. Those 20% of men have absolutely no incentive to settle down. Name one tangible thing that a sexually satisfied single guy would gain by being in a committed relationship. So there’s this runaway effect where women compete with each other for the top men available to them, and that results in a permanent loss condition for all of them.
I hate even bringing this up as it partially confirms all the INCEL bullshit, but men and women both operate on attraction in dating. It’s not just physical looks, but personality as well. An attractive guy with a fun, friendly personality can talk their way into a woman’s pants with relatively minimal effort, and the “I’m looking for a relationship” lie is extremely easy to pull off because they genuinely may be looking for a relationship, just not with every girl they go out with. The “I met a guy who wants to be in a relationship just like me” is easy to believe and the desire to keep him interested can lead them to believing “have sex or he will leave” because that actually does happen. I’ve known guys that have a “Three Date Rule”; if they don’t have sex or at least a BJ by the third date, they just drop the girl…and these were guys that wanted to be in relationships. But then again, they really just wanted consistent sex without effort.
The best quality women don't have this problem. Men are often begging them for relationships. Women who only get used for sex is the female equivalent of men stuck in the friend zone. - they are not deemed valuable enough for a relationship.
First part of the problem is that women are not attracted to men that want a relationship. I am not anti having a good time, however if you don’t hookup than guys would be forced to consider relationships. Second part is Desirable guys know with the powers of the internet there will always be someone else that will fuck them so they don’t have to build their relationship skills. I don’t know where the balance lies between sexual freedom and building relationships something for consideration.
Because sexual chemistry is important too and not many people want to wait a month or more to test the waters? I feel like I vet men pretty thoroughly and I'm not alone in that. Why do you think there are so many posts whining about womens standards being too high? The comments here have already devolved into incel rhetoric.
The "Hookup Zone" doesn't exist; men don't owe women relationships. ^(/s)
Lmao use their own logic against them 💪
Basically the same reason so many dudes claim its difficult to find good women. They want a woman in her early 20s who is slim, pretty, bubbly, smart, hard working, doting, faithful, with no vices, and a very high sex drive. Meanwhile they are just some average guy.
Yeah this is just wrong. SO many men will take just about any woman that comes along it’s not even funny. Problem is on dating apps especially they will never respond or “get bored” talking to you before they even get to know you at all. They want to be wowed and whatever else through an app with a stranger. Like the op said I don’t personally have super high standards either. Have most of your teeth, don’t have more than 3 kids, don’t weigh more than me while being shorter, and I think that’s pretty much it. I’m willing to give most women a chance but they arnt willing to do the same.
Bro my standards are has a pulse, doesn't weigh more than me, and has something in common, but the most difficult part about that is the have something in common.
You should have said: having a pulse 🤣
Because the men who just want to hook up are more attractive and thus more desirable to women than the men who want a relationship with them. If a guy just wants to hookup it’s probably because he does not find the woman attractive enough to date, implying that he is “out of her league.” The guy who is willing to date the woman is implying that she is within or above his league, hence why he wants to lock her down. I think most women would rather just try their luck with the guy they are more attracted to, which is understandable.
Probably the most accurate thing I’ve read in this thread. It’s all mind games and fight over ‘power’. I think women like the mind games
This is just the most naive ignorant take ever.
This gives me "I'm a nice guy" vibe. Just a feeling. I guess I have seen so many post kinda downing women about their choices of men.
Men lie, that's why
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Because short term pleasure is a lot easier to achieve than long term commitment and its easy to get for most average women without any sort of serious issues. If most average men cld do that they wld do the same so idc lmao.
I don't really think this is a stupid question
Men don't send nearly as many dick pics as Nice Guys on the internet seem to think.
Some of us do
I really believe that if men and women just stopped listening to all the crap dating advice out there like, play hard to get, wait 24 hours before texting back, make them work for your attention, then dating would be significantly easier and less stressful.
Because they don’t want men who want relationships. There’s no challenge in that. They want to be the woman who is SO valuable that she can convert the playboy into a one-woman man. They COULD solve their own “problems” quite easily by selecting men for their actual values. As you point out, there is no shortage of men who want exactly what they want. Instead, they seek out men who are coveted by all women; men who have options. Then they act like they wonder why they can’t get a man to settle down. They know fully well why. They just don’t want to admit that they do it to themselves. It’s easier to blame men for women’s choices.
1) We do. 2) People fkn lie.
You're looking for the state of friendship, that's the testing phase. At no point should anyone be immediately jumping into a relationship with someone y'all can't play marjo kart with, or order 2 dozen wings and some mozzarella sticks with before an epic movie. Problem is, that takes effort and has a risk of rejection and for some reason women don't wanna play that game, they want men to play it for em. Or they're in that relationship to be treated to free shit, and not because they love a guy. The whole set up is currently fucked beyond belief.
Simple If the only way to get laid is to say you want a relationship. People are going to pretend to want a relationship because that's a bad incentive Realistically, the only way to win this game is for women collectively to hold off so that the only way to get laid is to get into a relationship This is also why prostitution has so much resistance (Men who just want sex will not put up with anything if prostitution is on the table and instead just go straight to prostitution)
What's bizarre to me is trusting someone enough - let alone having actual feelings - to have the most intimate experience in life. Why not just stay home with a toy? Someone you don't know is essentially a human toy. A very unsafe way to mess around ultimately.
Because women want the best guys, and those guys usually are talking to a bunch of girls just like them. Guys say similar stuff just with different qualities. I do feel at the end of the day we would be happier with everyone getting paired up with someone on their level but seems not to be the trend in modern society.
Two facts that most Redditors will downvote even though they’re 100% true with a plethora of credible sources: 1. The more sexual partners we have, the less we are able to imprint and build a lasting relationship. Humans imprint - it is real. Both men and women, more partners = less likelihood of long term success. 2. Woman closing-in on (or exceeding) 30 are much more hasty to try and find a suitable partner to start having children with, often resulting in much less careful examination of their sexual partners. Men, to a lesser degree, experience this too, but more intensely when approaching 40. Anyone saying these are false are either lying, ignorant, or are weaponizing their deliberate incompetence by refusing to look into the data. TL;DR at the end of the day we humans are just dumb animals either flourishing or suffering from our instincts, we are at the mercy of our environment and the decisions of our younger selves.
Can you cite some of these credible sources?
Women habe a difficult time fimding a man (in the top 15% of physical attractiveness) who doesnt just want to hook up. Hmm, must be tough.
I don't think it's a woman exclusive problem. I'm sure people who are attractive and charming tend to have their pick of the litter, whisper sweet nothings, then bounce when they're done with you.
I think there's a big difference between what you hear as a "difficult time" and the experience of a difficult time. For myself and my friends, the vetting process is a big chunk of "the difficult time." A lot of us are not hooking up with these guys and then finding out that that's all they wanted. A lot of people talk about how much attention women get, but ignore that most of it is not good. There's a lot of shit-sifting going on, even before we're actually interacting with the ones who give us the crazy stories. If you're on the apps, you don't bother with the ones who say that they're looking for "short-term fun" or "still figuring it out." You don't bother with the ones who don't have a face pic or a bio. You don't bother ones who stay in their bio that they won't be in your area for long. You don't bother with the ones who don't say anything about their interests. Those are literally non-factors. Then you move to communication. You knock out the ones who immediately want to move to another app or straight to texting on the phone with no conversation. You knock out the ones that only text you after 9PM. You knock out the ones who turn conversations sexual at every opportunity. You knock out the ones who don't want to meet up or only want to meet up in someone's home. You knock out the ones who say things that are deal breakers for you. So not necessarily indicating that they only want to hook up, but other things that let you know a relationship with them wouldn't be successful. Then you go on the dates. You knock out the ones who show behaviors that make you feel like you're incompatible. You knock out the ones who either don't want your input on the activity or don't want to put any effort into planning. You knock out the ones who can't make conversation. You knock out the ones who communicate super inconsistently. So from this point, if you started with 75 potential people, you're down to like two. And those two will continue to see you in non-sexual settings. You'll talk all the time, about all kinds of things like family and traveling and things you want to try in the future and things you find interesting or important. You'll do that over the course of months. You figure out which one of the two feels better to be around and communicate with. And then you will decide that you feel comfortable sleeping with this person. And after all that, you're still looking at a 50-50 shot that he was serious about seeing where this goes or he was a future faker and will ghost you after.
The men lie. Come on, dude.
1) liars and manipulators exist 2) I'm one of the women who don't do hook-ups. I'm very picky and have standards and requirements for a potential partner, and I'm labeled as difficult and high maintenance.
You realise people lie? And people lie to get laid especially....
Because they are lazy and superficial. Everytime I read a complaint story here on reddit from a woman the described guy was Obviously only after Sex right from the start. The woman's main reason to pick that guy, was looks. Again and again the same story.
Last woman I dated , 2 dates was all it took to realize there’s no chemistry. She thought there was and kept trying to reinitiate for months. I get it being lonely sucks but so does being with the wrong person.
Well, they try.
People lie to get what they want
This hawk tuah society has taught men thats all women are good for cant date a strong independent girl that is living her best life
Lots of reasons: 1. They know what he wants but think they can change him. 2. He's a challenge. 3. If he won't be tied down, he must be worth tying down. 4. He lied at the start, and women have to find a balance between demonstrating they have a sex drive vs proving they won't just sleep withy anybody.
Uh. We do. They lie and pretend.
Because women want to chase someone that rides the line between out of her league, and obtainable. Women have endless options thanks to social media and dating apps. If you had endless choices, you'd only choose the best. If a man commits too easily, the woman will then think she can do better, because logically, if the man was better than her (and able to get women as good or better than her) then he wouldn't really care if she left or not, cuz he can easily get another woman of her caliber. People want want they can't have. A woman will ALWAYS treat you the best when she is trying to lock you down. This is also why married men say the sex died after the wedding or honeymoon. It's because she has your FULL, LEGAL commitment, and there's nothing left to win over. She has conquered you, and if you try to leave, she will take half or more of your resources.
I was married to a man for twelve years and had children with him before realizing he just wanted to hook up. I'm not sure how much more vetting I could possibly have done.
Here's a question for your question, why is it that most women who "want a serious relationship" either don't respond, ghost after an hour, go on one date for free food or have a one night stand and then ghost, or when they do get into a relationship they treat their partner like shit and cheat on them? Answer to both your questions, both genders fucking suck, there's alot of really dogshit people in the world and most people are two faced liars and vetting someone doesn't do shit, they can tell you whatever you want to hear and keep it going until they get bored or are caught in the lie
Men will literally do anything to get their dick wet, mate.
Because any man worth his salt wouldn’t keep trying after 3 dates. I don’t care if someone has some bozo friend who waited 6 months and it worked out.
I was looking for a serious partner for years before I got with mine The amount of times i thought I had a decent guy or girl that I wouldn't mind living with they pulled out something that went against my values or I couldn't deal with mentally, physically, verbally, or sexually It shouldn't be easy but you also have to understand hook up culture is a thing and people will lie to get laid Had a dude say he was serious about us and that I was always on his mind and as soon as I said can we take the physical (read: sexual) approach in person not through the phone and he fucking blocked me the next day and I found after three weeks of us just talking and him being so romantic that he was telling everyone he was single and had slept with two girls during that time
Women receive gratification/ego boost from sex just like men, I know multiple women who have admitted to having sex with a lot of men because it raised their self-esteem.
It's almost like turning down all of the guys who genuinely want relationships is a bad idea. Of course your partner is going to want to have sex with you. That's part of the deal. The difference is a guy who only wants to have sex and a guy who wants to have sex with only you for the rest of your lives.
Hahahaha That would require taking accountability and self discipline Things both men and women lack these days
i have the same problem as a guy. women seem to just want hookups and nothing more. I seem to only attract walking red flags so maybe its the same for women who feel the same way.
I used to know a guy who would take multiple girls out in a day and give them the whole act about how they feel like the one, how he loves them and how he can see a future with them until they gave it up then he ghosted them. He didn't have a car. He would always have these girls pick him up. He told me it was so he could have a rotation of available sex and if the girl didn't make him go through it all, then it was easier on him. I always thought it was disgusting and depraved, but hey, it worked out for him on my girlfriend at the time.
They're complaining ABOUT the vetting process lol. Like most things, the sexual intentions of men fall on a bell curve. It's easy to weed out the guys all the way over in the "sends dick pics in the first week" camp. But most guys fall in the middle to varying degrees. Guys who sorta want a relationship, but sorta aren't ready to settle down either. Statistically they're the most likely to exist among singles and the most difficult to vet because they often don't feel strongly enough one way or another to even know what they want. Guys who aren't sure what they want long-term, still want to get laid, but aren't blatant enough about that priority to be in the wannabe pickup artist range are the MAJORITY and very good at camoflauging for the sake of a fun time.
You're not supposed to send those pics in the first week?
Mine seems to be the opposite. Everyone wants to get married before dating. Idk why
What they mean is "a hot, stable guy with low standards who wants more than a hookup."
The amount of times I’ve been lied to for sex is unbelievable. If I could somehow grab a bar graph from the hypothetical life database to show exactly how many times every woman in the world has been lied to for sex and post it online, maybe men and women could understand each other a bit better.
We do. That is part of the problem.
I (34m) personally would like a relationship, very much. I have requirements such as emotional development and seeing if we are compatible in bed. That all takes time and effort to understand. It's been a few times now. I'm not duping women. They just didn't live up to my ridiculously low standards of being accountable for their own behaviours, and it takes time to see that. It's not my responsibility to fix women, it's my responsibility to pick well. An example of something that could be misrepresented as lying. Most of it is lying though.
Because they want to believe that their pussy is so awsome that it will make a player change his ways.
Well, it's not.
It’s a mix of inexperience and being attracted to exciting qualities over other more important values, my whole life me and my friends would see women we know choose the worst guys but we get it, they look good, are funny, and are cool and have a lot of friends, but what was surprising is that these women would boast how nice and sweet the guy is and we’re like duh of course he is you’re his new conquest until he’s bored of you, when you’re attracted to someone you will easily not see their flaws that’s where experience comes in and teaches you about relationships and your choices as you get older.
bitches are stupid thats why.
So, for example, you meet a guy via some friends. You go out a couple of times on your own, you also habg out with the friend group. When you have a bad day, he invites you for dinner at his place and cooks for you. He says he wants to take it slow and he just wants to cuddle and kiss, so you do that at first. You start hooking up around date 8, he makes sure you stay over, makes you breakfast in the morning, gives you a loaf of home-baked bread when you leave. He kisses you in front of your friends, he mentions his family and that he told them about you. Two months in he says he does not want to be in a relationship and that we are perfectly happy and why we have to put a label on it. This is a story out of my life. Would you have thought he just wanted a situationship after that behaviour?
Feminine hypergamy. They want men that are high value. They never want to “settle” for someone actually on their level. The ultimate feminine aspiration is to find someone extremely out of their league that will devote themselves to them completely. Outside of this fantasy, those men have options, and will be next to impossible for a woman the pin down unless she’s genuinely worth it to him (<1% chance). Women aren’t bad or wrong or unethical for this, just in the same way men aren’t bad or wrong or unethical for wanting to have sex with a variety of women and valuing sexual novelty. This is simply the way it is.
People date then find themselves incompatible for relationships. Some people run too quickly into the physical in my opinion. Some people can efficiently seperate sex and love , hookups and relationships. Others cannot. Knowing where you fit counts a great deal. When I was single I didn’t do hookups. I did try to go for character. I needed to not be physically repulsed but there had to be some attraction or else I wouldn’t experience arousal. That guy would make a better online only pal. Or we could completely part ways. Charm counted for a lot. Communication accounts for tons. As a woman I will say some women do over estimate themselves. I grew up in a place where a particular type of beauty was at a premium. I moved about a 45 minute flight a way with slightly different standards suddenly I was in the high demand category. *When I visited places outside of California it was even wilder!* It was really eye opening about how much easier dating life could be. It did *not* make finding relationships easier because there was a higher volume of men and I still had to pick someone I genuinely liked and cared about.
They're all chasing after the same top like 10 to 20% of men, and those men are drowning in options so they have no reason to settle into a relationship. If women weren't so incredibly picky, then the entire problem would be solved for everyone.