I'm glad he showed the replay video where he was an offender as well!
Technology could do it for us, but I don't think WTT wants to take the steps to implement anything and end up calling out almost everyone....
As a lefty I have a bad angle on right handed servers. I often can’t see contact where a righty could. I even posted on this formum about it! Everyone told me to chill, but they do t know lefty troubles:(
Even in this sub are a lot of people that try to bend the rules. It states, that the ball must be visible at all times. It is your responsibility as a server, that the ball is visible for the receiver. A left handed player shouldn't have troubles to see the ball at all times. I would call fault, if a lefty can't serve properly for me as a righty and vice versa.
Just add two umpire assistants that stand behind the receiver, no technology needed. They can never see 100% what the receivers see but it would solve the issue.
First of all, kudos to Anders for pointing out the different perspectives of the receiver/camera angle.
I was a bit scared of him making a topic on this, since he is one of the players that have been called for hiding serves during a match or in the video comments (what I mean is, someone like Timo whose serves are without a doubt the most obvious is more eligible to make a topic on this), but it turns out Anders made a very clear statement and provide many perspectives, even about his own! Respect!
The last bit about solutions to this problem is also a good point, umpires should be there to correct the play and not just keeping scores, although it wouldn't hurt for them to get the eagle eye system back.
There needs to be some camera positioning that's widely agreed to be valid for a matchup. Doesn't matter what that is. My point is that we should treat it like any other major sport, or even like scrabble. Allow a player to challenge such that a replay is to be definitive whether or not they could see the ball during the entire service. If the challenger is frivolous and/or incorrect some number of times, they're penalized.
Want to add on your point on Alexis Lebrun complained WCQ in XT World Cup. Wang was serving, but Alexis stopped to receive and raised his hand BEFORE Wang even hit the ball. That serving action was not completed and what he did, in the umpire's opinion, should be more of an action of interrupting the game. And Lebrun got a fault on that.
Thanks for the clip. I remembered it because people were discussing it. Maybe a player's reputation is a factor, but I tend to consider it an assumption. Meanwhile, Lebrun's way of complaining is not right is a fact...
I think the subliminal point Anders is making is that it's basically an arms race (or an arms in the way race perhaps) because so many high level players are doing it. You're either doing it or you are at a disadvantage.
He's absolutely right that umpires need to just be less worried about breaking the flow and more worried about enforcing the serves, in the long run everyone would be better off.
They do need to clarify the visibility rule though, as it stands it's ass, basically if you move to make a hidden serve easier to see, you theoretically just made that serve legal, which is obviously a ridiculous situation given the umpire will never call it if you don't move.
Serves should have to be visible from both opposite corners at all times. This would also make implementing a technological solution much easier.
Agree, they should make a more defined objective standard (e.g clear line from the ball to both net posts or both opposite corners), not an ambiguous "visibilty" of the receiver.
Unfortunately he is right. 80% do it. Boll also said in a video Blog that Ma Long was hiding more than usual at the world championships in 2018. His is still borderline though. WCQ's serve is downright disrespectful IMO.
I think it's easy to ban, so just ban it. But I think people will develop more hand-speed based serves (where the hand is only visible briefly). Xu Xin does this and it produces a similar effect.
How is it easy to ban? It is dependent on the perspective and a serve might be legal depending on where the oppenent is standing. The angle of the upwards throw is also very subjective. If you throw higher it is okay to throw less vertical. What is "high" (i think this is not written in the rules, but it was applied this way yo some tournament). Even the throw-height is so hard to determine with the eye, as it is so hard to determine, when the ball looses contact to the hand.
Then there is even a rule, that the umpire can call a serve illegal, if he is unsure if any rule was violated. Totally nuts.
Non-vertical serve is tightly related to hidden serves, because they are often tossed towards the body.
Even if you have all the cameras, how do you even make sure that they catch the right perspective. And then still 99,9% of players would not be able to enjoy the rules, because it takes an expensive technical setup.
>Non-vertical serve is tightly related to hidden serves, because they are often tossed towards the body.
Sure, it can be related because one is used to accomplish the other, but it doesn't make them tightly *coupled* problems. You can ban hidden serves without bothering with the vertical serve rule. So there's no need to force it in to the equation just to make it harder.
>Even if you have all the cameras, how do you even make sure that they catch the right perspective. And then still 99,9% of players would not be able to enjoy the rules, because it takes an expensive technical setup.
You have both corners, that's all you need. Everything in between the corners can be inferred. i.e. If it's visible from the left, but not visible from the right, at some point in the middle it became not visible. If it's not visible from both, well, you have a clear case. And that's the only real case you need to enforce.
This is a very cheap setup and light program to run. I can do it at home an old gopro. It doesn't require cameras to move or do anything fancy like depth perception. Scan each frame for white circle. Raise warning if not found.
EDIT
You don't even really need any program.., footage can just be reviewed when needed.
You just need cameras that can do 30fps 720p which is the cheapest garbage out there (the ball doesn't travel fast during serve).
The issue with rule 2.6.5 is that it only requires the server's **free arm and hand** to be moved out of the way. Many players are turning their **torso** to conceal the ball, which doesn't break rule 2.6.5.
Meanwhile, rule 10.5.1 says it must not be hidden by **any part of the body**. Strictly enforcing 10.5.1 would be ideal in my opinion because service receive is hard enough as it is. If umpires don't want to enforce it, then find a way to incorporate it into VAR.
----
Also, on the topic of toss angle, I know he's not a physicist, but at 30 degrees off the vertical (or 60 degrees off the horizontal), his 1m height 30cm distance expectation is completely off. That's just not how angles in projectile motion work.
Given 5m/s initial velocity, max height would be 0.95m while horizontal distance would be 2.21m, AKA **more than twice the max height.** This is because 30 degrees actually lands the same distance as 60 degrees, with 45 degrees being the maximum range.
Here's an interesting idea.
When playing someone with a borderline serve.
Stand on the side that the ball is easiest to see from.
If they throw it towards themselves and it's likely to be hidden, simply slide across to the other side so it's clearly hidden.
Then complain to the ref that you clearly can't see the ball.
Their response will probably be "that's because you moved", to which you will reply "So? His responsibility to make sure I can see it, not mine".
Kind of highlights just how ridiculous that rule is.
I don't know if it can be cheated, but maybe the easiest to enforce is to have the server stand a minimum distance from the table (forcing the serve to be long and limiting the options for weird spin/placements, at the same time giving the receiver more time to see the trajectory). Then forget about all the rules of throw angle, distance, hiding, just do what you want, but both/one? of your feet must touch the floor at least this far when the paddle touches the ball.
At least that one is much easier to enforce.
may be make it the server's chest need to be half opened to table and ball strike needs to be in front of chest. so server can't strike the ball while turning or strike before turning.
i think the problem is also the rules themselves and the physical limitations of us.
i am a leftie . i usually stand deep in the right corner to cover a lot with the forehand.
the way i stand, often enough ,when the opponent does a pendulum sidespin serve, i cant see the contact point. and it's hard for me to return.
thats highly illegal. but is that the servers fault or just a product of the situation?
I made a comment in the video on YT about this but because it's so subjective. "Is that toss a pinch too angled?" "Can it be seen from the receiver?" where often it's either illegal or borderline. Rather than have to completely rework where umpires sit, and still question them when they make calls arguing "oh bad call. That was actually legal."
Just go back to the 80s where you could hide the service. Do you all like watching Waldner play? He served behind his arm legally for years. Do you all like watching Liu Guoliang? Pick any of your old-school heroes. Same era. The table tennis was good back then. It's good now but this wasn't an issue back then. And honestly we have illegal serves now so what's the difference other than we talk about this topic all the time. Lets just stop it. Make it to where you can hide serves.
Then to help give the players of today, remember Anders is saying, and I agree, that we basically have illegal serves now, go to a two-toned colored ball. It will help the players a little more easily identify the spin on the ball and more importantly from a WTT perspective of TV viewership, fans will finally be able to see just how much and understand what spin is on the ball. Currently that's impossible really with an all white ball.
Simple solution and we'll never have to talk about this issue again.
Under the wording of the rules, there is actually no such thing as a borderline legal serve. According to the rules if there is any doubt then it's already illegal, you can't actually push the boundaries as the rules are written (but clearly not enforced).
Not only does the serve have to be clearly visible to the receiver, it has to be obvious to the umpire that this is the case (sure or unsure is the wording used).
They should just enforce it like this.
Players would quickly get used to serving far enough away from their body that it was never in doubt.
However you shake it, borderline will always exist. Whatever the line is for "this is illegal" players will always, always push it to as close to that line to get whatever advantage they can. Not breaking the rules mind you. But close to it. So there will always be plays where one person who sees something as illegal and another person sees it as legal. It's not as black & white as you might like to make it.
Ultimately they have 2 options. Either get rid of the rule (my idea) or get multiple umpires and move them to where they can actually call it correctly because it's impossible to do so where they sit now. Even if they did that I still suspect illegal serves would still happen as some umpires would be more lenient with it than others so that's where I'm skeptical about this approach and I prefer the doing away with the rule. But just do one or the other WTT.
I'm glad he showed the replay video where he was an offender as well! Technology could do it for us, but I don't think WTT wants to take the steps to implement anything and end up calling out almost everyone....
As a lefty I have a bad angle on right handed servers. I often can’t see contact where a righty could. I even posted on this formum about it! Everyone told me to chill, but they do t know lefty troubles:(
Even in this sub are a lot of people that try to bend the rules. It states, that the ball must be visible at all times. It is your responsibility as a server, that the ball is visible for the receiver. A left handed player shouldn't have troubles to see the ball at all times. I would call fault, if a lefty can't serve properly for me as a righty and vice versa.
Just add two umpire assistants that stand behind the receiver, no technology needed. They can never see 100% what the receivers see but it would solve the issue.
And doubling the number of umpires required? That seems more implausible than getting some variant of VAR or another camera-assisted system.
First of all, kudos to Anders for pointing out the different perspectives of the receiver/camera angle. I was a bit scared of him making a topic on this, since he is one of the players that have been called for hiding serves during a match or in the video comments (what I mean is, someone like Timo whose serves are without a doubt the most obvious is more eligible to make a topic on this), but it turns out Anders made a very clear statement and provide many perspectives, even about his own! Respect! The last bit about solutions to this problem is also a good point, umpires should be there to correct the play and not just keeping scores, although it wouldn't hurt for them to get the eagle eye system back.
[удалено]
Rules should be objective, not subjective. Too bad those things are happening though.
There needs to be some camera positioning that's widely agreed to be valid for a matchup. Doesn't matter what that is. My point is that we should treat it like any other major sport, or even like scrabble. Allow a player to challenge such that a replay is to be definitive whether or not they could see the ball during the entire service. If the challenger is frivolous and/or incorrect some number of times, they're penalized.
Want to add on your point on Alexis Lebrun complained WCQ in XT World Cup. Wang was serving, but Alexis stopped to receive and raised his hand BEFORE Wang even hit the ball. That serving action was not completed and what he did, in the umpire's opinion, should be more of an action of interrupting the game. And Lebrun got a fault on that.
[удалено]
Thanks for the clip. I remembered it because people were discussing it. Maybe a player's reputation is a factor, but I tend to consider it an assumption. Meanwhile, Lebrun's way of complaining is not right is a fact...
I think the subliminal point Anders is making is that it's basically an arms race (or an arms in the way race perhaps) because so many high level players are doing it. You're either doing it or you are at a disadvantage. He's absolutely right that umpires need to just be less worried about breaking the flow and more worried about enforcing the serves, in the long run everyone would be better off. They do need to clarify the visibility rule though, as it stands it's ass, basically if you move to make a hidden serve easier to see, you theoretically just made that serve legal, which is obviously a ridiculous situation given the umpire will never call it if you don't move. Serves should have to be visible from both opposite corners at all times. This would also make implementing a technological solution much easier.
Agree, they should make a more defined objective standard (e.g clear line from the ball to both net posts or both opposite corners), not an ambiguous "visibilty" of the receiver.
Unfortunately he is right. 80% do it. Boll also said in a video Blog that Ma Long was hiding more than usual at the world championships in 2018. His is still borderline though. WCQ's serve is downright disrespectful IMO.
I think it's easy to ban, so just ban it. But I think people will develop more hand-speed based serves (where the hand is only visible briefly). Xu Xin does this and it produces a similar effect.
How is it easy to ban? It is dependent on the perspective and a serve might be legal depending on where the oppenent is standing. The angle of the upwards throw is also very subjective. If you throw higher it is okay to throw less vertical. What is "high" (i think this is not written in the rules, but it was applied this way yo some tournament). Even the throw-height is so hard to determine with the eye, as it is so hard to determine, when the ball looses contact to the hand. Then there is even a rule, that the umpire can call a serve illegal, if he is unsure if any rule was violated. Totally nuts.
Cameras from each corner perspective check for ball each frame. I dont think the vertical serve on is as big of a deal on its own.
Non-vertical serve is tightly related to hidden serves, because they are often tossed towards the body. Even if you have all the cameras, how do you even make sure that they catch the right perspective. And then still 99,9% of players would not be able to enjoy the rules, because it takes an expensive technical setup.
>Non-vertical serve is tightly related to hidden serves, because they are often tossed towards the body. Sure, it can be related because one is used to accomplish the other, but it doesn't make them tightly *coupled* problems. You can ban hidden serves without bothering with the vertical serve rule. So there's no need to force it in to the equation just to make it harder. >Even if you have all the cameras, how do you even make sure that they catch the right perspective. And then still 99,9% of players would not be able to enjoy the rules, because it takes an expensive technical setup. You have both corners, that's all you need. Everything in between the corners can be inferred. i.e. If it's visible from the left, but not visible from the right, at some point in the middle it became not visible. If it's not visible from both, well, you have a clear case. And that's the only real case you need to enforce. This is a very cheap setup and light program to run. I can do it at home an old gopro. It doesn't require cameras to move or do anything fancy like depth perception. Scan each frame for white circle. Raise warning if not found. EDIT You don't even really need any program.., footage can just be reviewed when needed. You just need cameras that can do 30fps 720p which is the cheapest garbage out there (the ball doesn't travel fast during serve).
The issue with rule 2.6.5 is that it only requires the server's **free arm and hand** to be moved out of the way. Many players are turning their **torso** to conceal the ball, which doesn't break rule 2.6.5. Meanwhile, rule 10.5.1 says it must not be hidden by **any part of the body**. Strictly enforcing 10.5.1 would be ideal in my opinion because service receive is hard enough as it is. If umpires don't want to enforce it, then find a way to incorporate it into VAR. ---- Also, on the topic of toss angle, I know he's not a physicist, but at 30 degrees off the vertical (or 60 degrees off the horizontal), his 1m height 30cm distance expectation is completely off. That's just not how angles in projectile motion work. Given 5m/s initial velocity, max height would be 0.95m while horizontal distance would be 2.21m, AKA **more than twice the max height.** This is because 30 degrees actually lands the same distance as 60 degrees, with 45 degrees being the maximum range.
Here's an interesting idea. When playing someone with a borderline serve. Stand on the side that the ball is easiest to see from. If they throw it towards themselves and it's likely to be hidden, simply slide across to the other side so it's clearly hidden. Then complain to the ref that you clearly can't see the ball. Their response will probably be "that's because you moved", to which you will reply "So? His responsibility to make sure I can see it, not mine". Kind of highlights just how ridiculous that rule is.
I don't know if it can be cheated, but maybe the easiest to enforce is to have the server stand a minimum distance from the table (forcing the serve to be long and limiting the options for weird spin/placements, at the same time giving the receiver more time to see the trajectory). Then forget about all the rules of throw angle, distance, hiding, just do what you want, but both/one? of your feet must touch the floor at least this far when the paddle touches the ball. At least that one is much easier to enforce.
the rules of service are hell on earth
may be make it the server's chest need to be half opened to table and ball strike needs to be in front of chest. so server can't strike the ball while turning or strike before turning.
i think the problem is also the rules themselves and the physical limitations of us. i am a leftie . i usually stand deep in the right corner to cover a lot with the forehand. the way i stand, often enough ,when the opponent does a pendulum sidespin serve, i cant see the contact point. and it's hard for me to return. thats highly illegal. but is that the servers fault or just a product of the situation?
maybe only allowing backhand service is the fairest solution.
Then watch as the pros develop a backhand serve that can be hidden :>.
I'd imagine the pros would develop some wacky backhand serve hiding technique, with their thighs perhaps?
Solution: only backhand serves
They used to hide backhand serves as well
How is that even possible?
Solution : the ball must be always between the two shoulders and net.
I made a comment in the video on YT about this but because it's so subjective. "Is that toss a pinch too angled?" "Can it be seen from the receiver?" where often it's either illegal or borderline. Rather than have to completely rework where umpires sit, and still question them when they make calls arguing "oh bad call. That was actually legal." Just go back to the 80s where you could hide the service. Do you all like watching Waldner play? He served behind his arm legally for years. Do you all like watching Liu Guoliang? Pick any of your old-school heroes. Same era. The table tennis was good back then. It's good now but this wasn't an issue back then. And honestly we have illegal serves now so what's the difference other than we talk about this topic all the time. Lets just stop it. Make it to where you can hide serves. Then to help give the players of today, remember Anders is saying, and I agree, that we basically have illegal serves now, go to a two-toned colored ball. It will help the players a little more easily identify the spin on the ball and more importantly from a WTT perspective of TV viewership, fans will finally be able to see just how much and understand what spin is on the ball. Currently that's impossible really with an all white ball. Simple solution and we'll never have to talk about this issue again.
Under the wording of the rules, there is actually no such thing as a borderline legal serve. According to the rules if there is any doubt then it's already illegal, you can't actually push the boundaries as the rules are written (but clearly not enforced). Not only does the serve have to be clearly visible to the receiver, it has to be obvious to the umpire that this is the case (sure or unsure is the wording used). They should just enforce it like this. Players would quickly get used to serving far enough away from their body that it was never in doubt.
However you shake it, borderline will always exist. Whatever the line is for "this is illegal" players will always, always push it to as close to that line to get whatever advantage they can. Not breaking the rules mind you. But close to it. So there will always be plays where one person who sees something as illegal and another person sees it as legal. It's not as black & white as you might like to make it. Ultimately they have 2 options. Either get rid of the rule (my idea) or get multiple umpires and move them to where they can actually call it correctly because it's impossible to do so where they sit now. Even if they did that I still suspect illegal serves would still happen as some umpires would be more lenient with it than others so that's where I'm skeptical about this approach and I prefer the doing away with the rule. But just do one or the other WTT.