I pray every day that she is able to beat it. I am sure she would be happy to wait even longer for another promotion if it means she is still with us, but sadly it looks pretty bleak.
It's not my call, that goes to GM. But I already voted yes. (It's a no brainer for me for personal reasons)
Background, one of the other masters asked is a stage 4 cancer survivor.
I’m a master instructor with 39 years experience in Taekwondo. If she’s as good a human as you’ve attested then for goodness sakes let her test. Imagine how much inspiration and hope she will have after passing the exam. It may even do miraculous things for her body… who knows. Even if it doesn’t think about how much of an inspiration she will be for everyone else forever. Only good will come out of allowing her to test.
I'm no master, so I can't comment from a TKD perspective, but from a human perspective, if it's within your power to grant a dying person's last wish without too much sacrifice on your part, I think that you should be open to it.
I'd personally would not have a problem with this. It seems like they're dedicated from the brief description you gave and the only issue is time. If it gives them peace of mind before death, who really cares.
Attitude means so much more than arbitrary time requirements. Depending on her condition, I would even consider awarding the belt without a physical test.
I have almost 40 years in martial arts. I would be absolutely in favor of this even if she made 4th dan yesterday.
She has very little time left and she has made peace with this. She chooses to spend some of this very precious time participating in something that brings her joy. i would promote her on that aspect alone.
As far as I'm concerned, dan ranks after 2nd are really more of a formality anyway. Who's gonna question it. If you want to get into the nitty gritty, technically none of the TKD founders ever got past a 4th dan from any outside governing body but we're given 9th/10th dan from within so if your school wants to award a 5th dan who is anybody else to question it?
My thinking on this is that 1st dan is the point where you have learned and have good knowledge of the basics.
2nd to 4th is where you work toward a mastery of the basics and work on leadership.
I would not have tested for 5th (for us that is master level) util I had students begin under my instruction and earn their first dan.
For us 8th dan is Grandmaster, and I know our GM did not push for his 8th dan until he promoted at least one of his instructors to 5th Dan.
In other words 5th dan demonstrates your ability to teach and develop dans. 8th dan is where you demonstrate your ability to run a school/program.
This is one of the reasons for the longer and longer waiting periods between dans.
And 9th dan is for those who contribute to the art as a whole.
I am sure others can put this better than I, but that is my feel.
I would say that each and every dan is significant. But if you were to simplify it to "after this belt it's a formality", I'd say (in my opinion) it's either 4th or 7th. Definitely not second.
This is an aside, but I've never understood this point.
Why do you think that the founders of TKD stopped training at 2nd Dan or 4th Dan or whatever?
The fact that they may have stopped formally training in Karate does not mean that their exploration in combat systems stopped there. There are parts of ITF TKD that look very Chinese. I'm a 1st Dan in ITF TKD.
And for reasons, I do not think I'm going further in TKD.
However, I am picking up Hsing I and Lama Pai and most likely will start formally studying Northern Shaolin. Why do you think it would have been impossible for the founders of TKD to investigate arts outside of Karate?
Test her, if she beats it, next test has full time in grade for current and next rank. No KKW obviously.
My GM is a stage 4 cancer survivor, and my wife's aunt had stage 4 cancer, beat it, and lived another 6 or 7 years. It does happen.
First of all, as so many others have said, I would absolutely allow it without question. A Master rank is a great honor that often has less to do with skill/ability to perform or time than it does with spirit and leadership. From your description, she is worthy of the honor, and deserves to earn it, rather than it being awarded later. And, as someone else said, I would take her condition into account and be prepared to lessen or eliminate requirements to not place an unsure burden on her health.
If anyone wants to question it (although, as you've said, it is an organizational rank, not a KKW rank, so who can question it), has she always tested at the minimum time in grade? If not, those additional years can count as "catch up" for overall years of training.
TBH, we place too much emphasis on the "strict" x amount of years between grades. If the individual has proven their selves at the grade they are, working at level of the grade they want, and have contributed to both the art and the club, I don't see why they can't go for it. And provided the individual meets the standards laid out for the 5th Dan, it's all good. Besides if the grading committee/head instructor deems it so, it shouldn't matter what anyone else says/thinks, especially since under special circumstances.
I'm a 4th dan (or I guess I was, haven't been practicing for a few years) and I tested at 21 with a man who was in his 80s. He was a beloved member of our school, everyone loved him. He had arthritis and was starting to have some memory problems, and we clearly had different ability levels.
He couldn't do the form alone, but nobody would say it out loud. We did the 4th dan form together, slowly, with the grandmaster counting, in front of the crowd. It was the only way he would be able to manage it. He did a great job and I was freaking honored to be testing with this guy, who was my buddy. When we finished, the GM had me do it again on my own, in my own style. I felt like we both equally earned it that day. My buddy had to stop TKD soon after and then passed. Totally worth it, everybody gains something from that kind of experience.
I’d be fine with it. However, if they happen to beat it, then the next exam would be “on time” as if they’d taken this one on time, not overall early.
I pray every day that she is able to beat it. I am sure she would be happy to wait even longer for another promotion if it means she is still with us, but sadly it looks pretty bleak.
Then 100% do it. Easiest decision ever for me.
It's not my call, that goes to GM. But I already voted yes. (It's a no brainer for me for personal reasons) Background, one of the other masters asked is a stage 4 cancer survivor.
I’m a master instructor with 39 years experience in Taekwondo. If she’s as good a human as you’ve attested then for goodness sakes let her test. Imagine how much inspiration and hope she will have after passing the exam. It may even do miraculous things for her body… who knows. Even if it doesn’t think about how much of an inspiration she will be for everyone else forever. Only good will come out of allowing her to test.
I expect she will be allowed to test. (and I support it fully)
I'm no master, so I can't comment from a TKD perspective, but from a human perspective, if it's within your power to grant a dying person's last wish without too much sacrifice on your part, I think that you should be open to it.
Absolutely you can comment. I was curious as to what gups would think of someone testing for 5th dan early for this reason.
I'd personally would not have a problem with this. It seems like they're dedicated from the brief description you gave and the only issue is time. If it gives them peace of mind before death, who really cares.
Attitude means so much more than arbitrary time requirements. Depending on her condition, I would even consider awarding the belt without a physical test.
If she's put in the time and work to even be close to 5th Dan, then she absolutely deserves it for herself and her family.
I have almost 40 years in martial arts. I would be absolutely in favor of this even if she made 4th dan yesterday. She has very little time left and she has made peace with this. She chooses to spend some of this very precious time participating in something that brings her joy. i would promote her on that aspect alone.
As far as I'm concerned, dan ranks after 2nd are really more of a formality anyway. Who's gonna question it. If you want to get into the nitty gritty, technically none of the TKD founders ever got past a 4th dan from any outside governing body but we're given 9th/10th dan from within so if your school wants to award a 5th dan who is anybody else to question it?
Idk about after second. After 4th, maybe, since it’s master level, but students go through a lot of development between 2nd and 4th.
My thinking on this is that 1st dan is the point where you have learned and have good knowledge of the basics. 2nd to 4th is where you work toward a mastery of the basics and work on leadership. I would not have tested for 5th (for us that is master level) util I had students begin under my instruction and earn their first dan. For us 8th dan is Grandmaster, and I know our GM did not push for his 8th dan until he promoted at least one of his instructors to 5th Dan. In other words 5th dan demonstrates your ability to teach and develop dans. 8th dan is where you demonstrate your ability to run a school/program. This is one of the reasons for the longer and longer waiting periods between dans. And 9th dan is for those who contribute to the art as a whole. I am sure others can put this better than I, but that is my feel.
I would say that each and every dan is significant. But if you were to simplify it to "after this belt it's a formality", I'd say (in my opinion) it's either 4th or 7th. Definitely not second.
This is an aside, but I've never understood this point. Why do you think that the founders of TKD stopped training at 2nd Dan or 4th Dan or whatever? The fact that they may have stopped formally training in Karate does not mean that their exploration in combat systems stopped there. There are parts of ITF TKD that look very Chinese. I'm a 1st Dan in ITF TKD. And for reasons, I do not think I'm going further in TKD. However, I am picking up Hsing I and Lama Pai and most likely will start formally studying Northern Shaolin. Why do you think it would have been impossible for the founders of TKD to investigate arts outside of Karate?
100% do it
Test her, if she beats it, next test has full time in grade for current and next rank. No KKW obviously. My GM is a stage 4 cancer survivor, and my wife's aunt had stage 4 cancer, beat it, and lived another 6 or 7 years. It does happen.
Fully support her testing. Just do it. I hope she beats the cancer, too.
First of all, as so many others have said, I would absolutely allow it without question. A Master rank is a great honor that often has less to do with skill/ability to perform or time than it does with spirit and leadership. From your description, she is worthy of the honor, and deserves to earn it, rather than it being awarded later. And, as someone else said, I would take her condition into account and be prepared to lessen or eliminate requirements to not place an unsure burden on her health. If anyone wants to question it (although, as you've said, it is an organizational rank, not a KKW rank, so who can question it), has she always tested at the minimum time in grade? If not, those additional years can count as "catch up" for overall years of training.
Make it a celebration of her as the test. Definitely do it, honor her and let her enjoy this.
Didn’t need to think too long with this: She deserves to sit the test and every piece of good luck with everything she’s going through.
I'd let her test, it's a dying wish
TBH, we place too much emphasis on the "strict" x amount of years between grades. If the individual has proven their selves at the grade they are, working at level of the grade they want, and have contributed to both the art and the club, I don't see why they can't go for it. And provided the individual meets the standards laid out for the 5th Dan, it's all good. Besides if the grading committee/head instructor deems it so, it shouldn't matter what anyone else says/thinks, especially since under special circumstances.
Without a doubt.
Let her test!
I would have no problem with it at all. // Kukkiwon 4th dan.
I'm a 4th dan (or I guess I was, haven't been practicing for a few years) and I tested at 21 with a man who was in his 80s. He was a beloved member of our school, everyone loved him. He had arthritis and was starting to have some memory problems, and we clearly had different ability levels. He couldn't do the form alone, but nobody would say it out loud. We did the 4th dan form together, slowly, with the grandmaster counting, in front of the crowd. It was the only way he would be able to manage it. He did a great job and I was freaking honored to be testing with this guy, who was my buddy. When we finished, the GM had me do it again on my own, in my own style. I felt like we both equally earned it that day. My buddy had to stop TKD soon after and then passed. Totally worth it, everybody gains something from that kind of experience.
Time in grade requirements are waived all the time for less valid reasons. I would absolutely support someone in that situation testing.
If it's for a school Dan ranking, then absolutely test her early.
No problem. I would allow it.