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Seems like Nintendo just remodeled kids that had significant growth which Koko and Finley did not. (I thought Koko and Cottla were twins in BotW but the fact that Cottla is older actually makes sense since she was the one who knew their mother was dead while Koko did not).
According to Fronk in Tears of the Kingdom, 100 years old is middle aged for a Zora and Dunma was very adamant that she was not yet 100 in BotW (she may be >100 in TotK now), so Dunma was already approaching middle aged while Finley is still a child before she has had an significant growth.
Rivan, Dunma's father says he is over 130 in BotW so he must have had Dunma in his 30s to 40s meaning that the sexual maturity of a Zora is likely around that age.
Despite Finley calling it a "growth spurt" that she has yet to hit, Mipha says that Link always seemed to grow up so much faster than she did meaning her growth as a Zora was slower and not like a growth spurt in Hylians. So it makes sense that Finley, a prepubescent child still hasn't had any significant growth in TotK because she grows a lot slower than Hylian children who have hit a significant growth milestone like Tulin or Cottla—meaning they are pubescent children.
If you consider Zora 40 like Hylian 20 since Rivan had a kid around there, then a Zora child of 20 could be like a Hylian at 10.
So in short, whatever that was between Sasan and Finley in BotW was damn creepy and TotK lightens this a bit by removing the "darling" crap and replacing it with "best friend". There's nothing that could fix their relationship not coming across as weird since Finley is still very explicitly an immature Zora child.
Ah, my bad re: mixing up the names of the Sheikah kids.
Rivan specifically mentions that Dunma isn't much older than 60 if you talk to him a bunch in TOTK, so she's actually closer in age to the kids - that's *why* he gets so worried and protective of her, since she's still very young (in Zora terms).
The way they'd presented Finley in BOTW, it seemed like they were trying to suggest she was just on the cusp of having that growth spurt? Which is why I was hoping, maybe futilely, that they'd make that whole situation... Less Awful.
I don't know where you get that Rivan says she's like 60, I haven't read that yet. Also her being very adamant of not being 100 ("sigh, let's just say I'm less than 100 years old. Can't you tell?") while being, as you say, 60 is like me saying "let's just say I'm not yet 40!" while I'm 25. Also Rivan being worried about Dunma isn't a signifier of age as Sidon is worried for Yona who is older than him—anyone worries about loved ones regardless of age. Furthermore, Rivan has loads of confidence in Dunma as he boasts about her prospects of becoming the next captain of the guard in TotK.
Fronk in TotK mentions that Zora change their manner of speech after 100 years old to be more elegant, so Dunma's age would be revealed in her manner of speech which isn't very clear in English. Someone who knows Japanese would be able to identify the difference in speech more easily comparing the Zora under and over 100.
If you want a younger Zora who is full sized, the Zora in the Sidon fan club are most likely younger than Dunma. Dunma however is around middle aged.
And there's nothing that would have fixed the relationship between Sasan and Finley even if she did somehow grow fast. Going from a little girl asking whether you're a fairy coming to take her letter in BotW to dating a Hylian man—that's still in creepy range as he would still have been calling this prepubescent Zora his darling and just "waiting" until she's hit puberty not even past that. It was always going to be creepy since Finley was explicitly prepubescent and very immature in BotW in the first place. TotK just softens the blow by changing "soulmate" and "darling" to "best friend".
I literally just said that Rivan talks about how old Dunma is in his dialogue if you speak with him in TOTK. I couldn't tell you when specifically, as I made it a point to talk to all the NPCs with every story beat during the Zora quest line.
I'm not saying that the relationship between Finley and Sasan was never going to *not* be creepy, especially not with how they presented it to begin with. I was expressing that I wished they had done more to walk it back than they did.
Does he say an age or are you just making an assumption because I did talk to him on Ploymus Mountain and he had just mentioned how she was stationed with defending Jiahto and he was worried about the sludge. From what Dunma says in her dialogue, I find it very unbelievable that she would be 60 in TotK, that is 40 years off of 100 in which she said she was "not yet 100".
40 years isn't significant as the generation before Rivan including his father are all elderly. Dorephan had been crown king 50 or so years before the Calamity since he got his forehead scar from a Guardian after the Calamity "100 years after" he became king of the Zora. Dunma being just over half way to 100 wouldn't make sense with what she has said about her own age.
And I am saying having Finley grow up wouldn't have walked it back. The only way they could have walked it back further was to remove more like how Sasan refers to him building muscles like he "promised" her after his and Finley's Shrine Quest.
I'm not making an assumption, I didn't pull the "60" number out of thin air. It is what it is. I can't backtrack that far to try and get you a screenshot, and it doesn't seem like anyone else cares enough to record talking to the NPCs for me to show you.
I'm not exactly sure what the disconnect here is. I'm agreeing with you about how poorly they included this aspect of the game.
I would need picture evidence and I would not be interested in replaying just for this either. It contradicts what Dunma says in BotW and would have her overdating herself by 40 years by referring to herself as not yet 100 rather than over 50 similar to how her father specified over 130 on BotW rather than just over 100. If Rivan said she was part of the guard for 60 years, that would line up more with her dialogue in BotW. Referring to herself as under 100 while being only 10 years over half that is absolutely hard to believe. She was so determined to be perceived as still young but referring to a significanly higher number would only age her by 40 years.
And with Finley, I am only disagreeing about her having some sort of growth would somehow improve the situation with Sasan. It wouldn't change things as it is creepy either way. The fact that she is still prepubescent just hammers home how creepy the dialogue was with "darling" etc. She was and still is a little Zora child. Her suddenly growing would just have some people claim it was okay because now she has some sort of puberty, but no, it is even more apparent just how young she still is for a Zora.
imo the only way to make it ok would be to very clearly show she was an adult all along, specifically, with some Zora equivalent to dwarfism or a delayed puberty, with a fully developed adult brain. and maybe also have her establish that any childish or frivolous behavior/manner of speech was just being lovestruck and silly.
sasan didn't seem to be specifically into Zora children (he was surprised to learn she seemed younger than him). so they could have played up him being weirded out by the situation of her looking like a child, or not knowing what zora look like in general and being surprised that finley is so small.
then if they did proceed with a relationship it would be like, between two consenting adults with sasan not doing it for wrong/gross reasons.
honestly though if they had done it that way, sasan would be probably the one who was too young in botw. I think he was 16-18? not as much of a problem by totk though
That's just the "she's actually a 1000 year old dragon trope". It was and still is abundantly clear that she is prepubescent. If TotK tried to retcon it by saying "well she was just acting like a baby and being treated like a baby but she's totally not, I swear!" it would still be creepy.
She needs her mommy's permission to leave the Domain when it's raining, she says she hasn't reached her "growth spurt", she asks if you're a fairy who will deliver her letter and not to play with her heart if you say yes. She was always an immature little prepubescent Zora. Nothing in TotK could fix it really.
The only good thing is that Sasan doesn't call her "darling" anymore and Finley calls him her "best friend"; it doesn't fix anything or make them any less weird but at least it can be much easier to ignore that it was in BotW with the overly distasteful dialogue.
I wrote out a long comment about my feelings about how this could be ok IN universe if she literally is just an atypically developing adult. But the comment got lost cause my browser tripped out. Personally I don't think her childish dialog necessarily indicates she's a literal child, because adult humans can also talk atypically and still be adults, and rarely, can not really have any typical puberty development but again, can still be adults. I'm not saying this is what happened but I wanted to hope. I think if it were like that, IN Universe it's very different from the immortal dragon trope. Because if it's that way, it's not finley making herself look like a child to be attractive to perverts, it's just her inhabiting her own body. And not Sasan being attracted to someone for looking like that, but despite it. (he thought she was an adult based on her letters, and he was pretty surprised and not like, pleasantly surprised more just dumbfounded). I think there is some conflicting evidence on either side for Finleys being an adult or not. If it were a real world situation I would 100% be concerned and want someone to look into it, but if I found out Finley was in fact an adult, just, without usual adulthood body development and perhaps more whimsical, silly, or otherwise not conforming to adult behavior. I would probably be really skeptical about Sasan too, but if he really did just like her for her (+in this hypothetical, completely adult!) mind, and not having any inappropriate interactions with actual kids, then I would kinda just have to shrug. if she was not determined to be legally or developmentally an adult, then yeah obviously nothing can redeem it.
that all said, my bigger concern would just be like. who is this narrative for. my "it could be ok..." scenario above is really specific. I do think there's conflicting evidence on either side as to whether it fits and also what the nature of their relationship even is. I'm able to be optimistic that it might be ok. but. like who would find this identifiable. personally I can slightly identify with finley because as an autistic woman my maturity has been called into question in really invalidating ways and IF she's an adult her story speaks to that. but if she's a child then her frustrations are very different, like, concern of "did Sasan tell her her letters were elegant and mature to groom her" ewww vibes. But then I'm like who would identify with sasan?... pedophiles, that's who.
zora culture might just be really toxic or bad at handling this stuff, like especially if young zora are brought up to be mature ("elegant") in ways that make it hard for them to judge comparative maturity with hylians . mipha and links relationship was pretty inappropriate too. Mipha may have technically been a minor when they met, but link was a small child. by the time they started dating, he was an adolescent but she was an adult with decades more life experience than him.
IF finley is truly an adult, then she might actually be way too old for Sasan who was also a teenager when they met. like IF she's just not had a typical puberty, then don't her decades of life experience create a bit of a power imbalance with a hylian teenager. like, idk. if there's any age appropriate window for Zora and hylians to date, other than "both are fully adult already".
this post is months old but just for curious people like me reading from the future--
I don't remember if dunma's specific age is mentioned, but rivan specifically says when you first talk to him on ploymus mountain that he is worried about her guarding jiahto because she's just barely reached adulthood and therefore is still very much like a child. I assumed that meant she was closer to the zora equivalent of hylian 18-20 yo. your strong assertion that she is middle-aged is incorrect. I just played this part of the game a few days ago. also, king dorephan is specifically said to have been king "for several centuries" meaning at least 200-300 years after reaching maturity, so 100 years old as middle aged makes no sense. 100 would also make sidon over middle aged though characters make a point to say he has also been maturing emotionally over the past few years, implying he's also a young adult. additionally, kodah mentions a love triangle with link and mipha 100 years ago, implying she was also a late teen/adult equivalent back then, and does not look close to elderly 100 years later. the zora lifespan seems to be 300-500 which makes 100 as middle aged quite bizarre. I have a feeling the "middle aged" dunma comment might have been a mistranslation of human young adults thinking 30 year olds are ancient.
I also personally think botw/totk has many continuity errors, almost like they just assigned random teams to write certain things then didn't quality check it. or they just didn't care and wrote whatever they thought would sound interesting without thinking too hard about it.
She was not at all close to growing up in botw which made the quest and dialogue in English so disgusting. She's at best a zora "tween" and they grow slowly as per mipha's dialogue so id say still a child and not at all appropriate to have a relarionship with a grown hylian man (and if anyone tries to bring up "13 is age of consent in japan" when thats not true for the inhabitied land, I will block them immediately)
At least it seems they tried to remove the implication in totk, but ill have to see the japanese dialogue translated
Yeah, that's why it bothered me so much. Both of her parents refer to her as a "young adult" in TOTK, at least in English, which.... no, that's definitely still a child.
Unless it's mistranslation of "young lady" which does not indicate maturity and I havent seen "young woman" or "young adult" dialogue from them.
Id have to see the dialogue itself because that makes it sound like her parents are delusional and not that finley is any older than she looks
At different points, both of them refer to her as a "young adult" - Kodah while the main quest is still going, Kayden when you first talk to him after finishing it. I fired up my game to see if I could get it from Kayden again but he gave me different dialogue when I tried 🤦
I always took it as her just having kind of a silly little kid crush on him in BotW, though it's admittedly been a long while since I played that quest.
Maybe they love each other and are waiting for that time when she grows up. I don't think there is any sexual relationship involved since Zoras seem the type to get married first and sex later
that's still fked up. There is confusion, like finley ages slowly, so she must have been living for 20+ years, but if her mind is that of a child, then its weird. But if 20+ year Zoras are considered adults then maybe its okay.
How would we feel if it was little Purah in her kid body but grown up mind? Would that make us feel less uncomfortable? Just a quick thought that came to mind
Not saying it justifies anything, but is it possible that Sasan is much younger than he seems? He’s taller than Link but most people seem to be…
I also don’t have extensive knowledge of the details so don’t hurt me, please. 😅
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Seems like Nintendo just remodeled kids that had significant growth which Koko and Finley did not. (I thought Koko and Cottla were twins in BotW but the fact that Cottla is older actually makes sense since she was the one who knew their mother was dead while Koko did not). According to Fronk in Tears of the Kingdom, 100 years old is middle aged for a Zora and Dunma was very adamant that she was not yet 100 in BotW (she may be >100 in TotK now), so Dunma was already approaching middle aged while Finley is still a child before she has had an significant growth. Rivan, Dunma's father says he is over 130 in BotW so he must have had Dunma in his 30s to 40s meaning that the sexual maturity of a Zora is likely around that age. Despite Finley calling it a "growth spurt" that she has yet to hit, Mipha says that Link always seemed to grow up so much faster than she did meaning her growth as a Zora was slower and not like a growth spurt in Hylians. So it makes sense that Finley, a prepubescent child still hasn't had any significant growth in TotK because she grows a lot slower than Hylian children who have hit a significant growth milestone like Tulin or Cottla—meaning they are pubescent children. If you consider Zora 40 like Hylian 20 since Rivan had a kid around there, then a Zora child of 20 could be like a Hylian at 10. So in short, whatever that was between Sasan and Finley in BotW was damn creepy and TotK lightens this a bit by removing the "darling" crap and replacing it with "best friend". There's nothing that could fix their relationship not coming across as weird since Finley is still very explicitly an immature Zora child.
Ah, my bad re: mixing up the names of the Sheikah kids. Rivan specifically mentions that Dunma isn't much older than 60 if you talk to him a bunch in TOTK, so she's actually closer in age to the kids - that's *why* he gets so worried and protective of her, since she's still very young (in Zora terms). The way they'd presented Finley in BOTW, it seemed like they were trying to suggest she was just on the cusp of having that growth spurt? Which is why I was hoping, maybe futilely, that they'd make that whole situation... Less Awful.
I don't know where you get that Rivan says she's like 60, I haven't read that yet. Also her being very adamant of not being 100 ("sigh, let's just say I'm less than 100 years old. Can't you tell?") while being, as you say, 60 is like me saying "let's just say I'm not yet 40!" while I'm 25. Also Rivan being worried about Dunma isn't a signifier of age as Sidon is worried for Yona who is older than him—anyone worries about loved ones regardless of age. Furthermore, Rivan has loads of confidence in Dunma as he boasts about her prospects of becoming the next captain of the guard in TotK. Fronk in TotK mentions that Zora change their manner of speech after 100 years old to be more elegant, so Dunma's age would be revealed in her manner of speech which isn't very clear in English. Someone who knows Japanese would be able to identify the difference in speech more easily comparing the Zora under and over 100. If you want a younger Zora who is full sized, the Zora in the Sidon fan club are most likely younger than Dunma. Dunma however is around middle aged. And there's nothing that would have fixed the relationship between Sasan and Finley even if she did somehow grow fast. Going from a little girl asking whether you're a fairy coming to take her letter in BotW to dating a Hylian man—that's still in creepy range as he would still have been calling this prepubescent Zora his darling and just "waiting" until she's hit puberty not even past that. It was always going to be creepy since Finley was explicitly prepubescent and very immature in BotW in the first place. TotK just softens the blow by changing "soulmate" and "darling" to "best friend".
I literally just said that Rivan talks about how old Dunma is in his dialogue if you speak with him in TOTK. I couldn't tell you when specifically, as I made it a point to talk to all the NPCs with every story beat during the Zora quest line. I'm not saying that the relationship between Finley and Sasan was never going to *not* be creepy, especially not with how they presented it to begin with. I was expressing that I wished they had done more to walk it back than they did.
Does he say an age or are you just making an assumption because I did talk to him on Ploymus Mountain and he had just mentioned how she was stationed with defending Jiahto and he was worried about the sludge. From what Dunma says in her dialogue, I find it very unbelievable that she would be 60 in TotK, that is 40 years off of 100 in which she said she was "not yet 100". 40 years isn't significant as the generation before Rivan including his father are all elderly. Dorephan had been crown king 50 or so years before the Calamity since he got his forehead scar from a Guardian after the Calamity "100 years after" he became king of the Zora. Dunma being just over half way to 100 wouldn't make sense with what she has said about her own age. And I am saying having Finley grow up wouldn't have walked it back. The only way they could have walked it back further was to remove more like how Sasan refers to him building muscles like he "promised" her after his and Finley's Shrine Quest.
I'm not making an assumption, I didn't pull the "60" number out of thin air. It is what it is. I can't backtrack that far to try and get you a screenshot, and it doesn't seem like anyone else cares enough to record talking to the NPCs for me to show you. I'm not exactly sure what the disconnect here is. I'm agreeing with you about how poorly they included this aspect of the game.
I would need picture evidence and I would not be interested in replaying just for this either. It contradicts what Dunma says in BotW and would have her overdating herself by 40 years by referring to herself as not yet 100 rather than over 50 similar to how her father specified over 130 on BotW rather than just over 100. If Rivan said she was part of the guard for 60 years, that would line up more with her dialogue in BotW. Referring to herself as under 100 while being only 10 years over half that is absolutely hard to believe. She was so determined to be perceived as still young but referring to a significanly higher number would only age her by 40 years. And with Finley, I am only disagreeing about her having some sort of growth would somehow improve the situation with Sasan. It wouldn't change things as it is creepy either way. The fact that she is still prepubescent just hammers home how creepy the dialogue was with "darling" etc. She was and still is a little Zora child. Her suddenly growing would just have some people claim it was okay because now she has some sort of puberty, but no, it is even more apparent just how young she still is for a Zora.
imo the only way to make it ok would be to very clearly show she was an adult all along, specifically, with some Zora equivalent to dwarfism or a delayed puberty, with a fully developed adult brain. and maybe also have her establish that any childish or frivolous behavior/manner of speech was just being lovestruck and silly. sasan didn't seem to be specifically into Zora children (he was surprised to learn she seemed younger than him). so they could have played up him being weirded out by the situation of her looking like a child, or not knowing what zora look like in general and being surprised that finley is so small. then if they did proceed with a relationship it would be like, between two consenting adults with sasan not doing it for wrong/gross reasons. honestly though if they had done it that way, sasan would be probably the one who was too young in botw. I think he was 16-18? not as much of a problem by totk though
That's just the "she's actually a 1000 year old dragon trope". It was and still is abundantly clear that she is prepubescent. If TotK tried to retcon it by saying "well she was just acting like a baby and being treated like a baby but she's totally not, I swear!" it would still be creepy. She needs her mommy's permission to leave the Domain when it's raining, she says she hasn't reached her "growth spurt", she asks if you're a fairy who will deliver her letter and not to play with her heart if you say yes. She was always an immature little prepubescent Zora. Nothing in TotK could fix it really. The only good thing is that Sasan doesn't call her "darling" anymore and Finley calls him her "best friend"; it doesn't fix anything or make them any less weird but at least it can be much easier to ignore that it was in BotW with the overly distasteful dialogue.
I wrote out a long comment about my feelings about how this could be ok IN universe if she literally is just an atypically developing adult. But the comment got lost cause my browser tripped out. Personally I don't think her childish dialog necessarily indicates she's a literal child, because adult humans can also talk atypically and still be adults, and rarely, can not really have any typical puberty development but again, can still be adults. I'm not saying this is what happened but I wanted to hope. I think if it were like that, IN Universe it's very different from the immortal dragon trope. Because if it's that way, it's not finley making herself look like a child to be attractive to perverts, it's just her inhabiting her own body. And not Sasan being attracted to someone for looking like that, but despite it. (he thought she was an adult based on her letters, and he was pretty surprised and not like, pleasantly surprised more just dumbfounded). I think there is some conflicting evidence on either side for Finleys being an adult or not. If it were a real world situation I would 100% be concerned and want someone to look into it, but if I found out Finley was in fact an adult, just, without usual adulthood body development and perhaps more whimsical, silly, or otherwise not conforming to adult behavior. I would probably be really skeptical about Sasan too, but if he really did just like her for her (+in this hypothetical, completely adult!) mind, and not having any inappropriate interactions with actual kids, then I would kinda just have to shrug. if she was not determined to be legally or developmentally an adult, then yeah obviously nothing can redeem it. that all said, my bigger concern would just be like. who is this narrative for. my "it could be ok..." scenario above is really specific. I do think there's conflicting evidence on either side as to whether it fits and also what the nature of their relationship even is. I'm able to be optimistic that it might be ok. but. like who would find this identifiable. personally I can slightly identify with finley because as an autistic woman my maturity has been called into question in really invalidating ways and IF she's an adult her story speaks to that. but if she's a child then her frustrations are very different, like, concern of "did Sasan tell her her letters were elegant and mature to groom her" ewww vibes. But then I'm like who would identify with sasan?... pedophiles, that's who. zora culture might just be really toxic or bad at handling this stuff, like especially if young zora are brought up to be mature ("elegant") in ways that make it hard for them to judge comparative maturity with hylians . mipha and links relationship was pretty inappropriate too. Mipha may have technically been a minor when they met, but link was a small child. by the time they started dating, he was an adolescent but she was an adult with decades more life experience than him. IF finley is truly an adult, then she might actually be way too old for Sasan who was also a teenager when they met. like IF she's just not had a typical puberty, then don't her decades of life experience create a bit of a power imbalance with a hylian teenager. like, idk. if there's any age appropriate window for Zora and hylians to date, other than "both are fully adult already".
this post is months old but just for curious people like me reading from the future-- I don't remember if dunma's specific age is mentioned, but rivan specifically says when you first talk to him on ploymus mountain that he is worried about her guarding jiahto because she's just barely reached adulthood and therefore is still very much like a child. I assumed that meant she was closer to the zora equivalent of hylian 18-20 yo. your strong assertion that she is middle-aged is incorrect. I just played this part of the game a few days ago. also, king dorephan is specifically said to have been king "for several centuries" meaning at least 200-300 years after reaching maturity, so 100 years old as middle aged makes no sense. 100 would also make sidon over middle aged though characters make a point to say he has also been maturing emotionally over the past few years, implying he's also a young adult. additionally, kodah mentions a love triangle with link and mipha 100 years ago, implying she was also a late teen/adult equivalent back then, and does not look close to elderly 100 years later. the zora lifespan seems to be 300-500 which makes 100 as middle aged quite bizarre. I have a feeling the "middle aged" dunma comment might have been a mistranslation of human young adults thinking 30 year olds are ancient. I also personally think botw/totk has many continuity errors, almost like they just assigned random teams to write certain things then didn't quality check it. or they just didn't care and wrote whatever they thought would sound interesting without thinking too hard about it.
She was not at all close to growing up in botw which made the quest and dialogue in English so disgusting. She's at best a zora "tween" and they grow slowly as per mipha's dialogue so id say still a child and not at all appropriate to have a relarionship with a grown hylian man (and if anyone tries to bring up "13 is age of consent in japan" when thats not true for the inhabitied land, I will block them immediately) At least it seems they tried to remove the implication in totk, but ill have to see the japanese dialogue translated
Yeah, that's why it bothered me so much. Both of her parents refer to her as a "young adult" in TOTK, at least in English, which.... no, that's definitely still a child.
Unless it's mistranslation of "young lady" which does not indicate maturity and I havent seen "young woman" or "young adult" dialogue from them. Id have to see the dialogue itself because that makes it sound like her parents are delusional and not that finley is any older than she looks
At different points, both of them refer to her as a "young adult" - Kodah while the main quest is still going, Kayden when you first talk to him after finishing it. I fired up my game to see if I could get it from Kayden again but he gave me different dialogue when I tried 🤦
I would have to see it myself because I have not seen Kodah's say that and I have not completed the main quest
I always took it as her just having kind of a silly little kid crush on him in BotW, though it's admittedly been a long while since I played that quest.
He calls her "darling" and there are other questionable dialogue with them
Maybe they love each other and are waiting for that time when she grows up. I don't think there is any sexual relationship involved since Zoras seem the type to get married first and sex later
that's still fked up. There is confusion, like finley ages slowly, so she must have been living for 20+ years, but if her mind is that of a child, then its weird. But if 20+ year Zoras are considered adults then maybe its okay.
How would we feel if it was little Purah in her kid body but grown up mind? Would that make us feel less uncomfortable? Just a quick thought that came to mind
Yeah it's still weird.
Ahh so maybe it’s just grooming! Way better 🤡
Not saying it justifies anything, but is it possible that Sasan is much younger than he seems? He’s taller than Link but most people seem to be… I also don’t have extensive knowledge of the details so don’t hurt me, please. 😅
Finley is my name and I got very confused when I saw her for the first time