I am thinking there is not a better person they could have chosen to be Kingpin.
I just hope the Spiderman also gets a chance at coming face to face with him.
Basically was tossing Kate Bishop around with one arm. He could have killed her at any point. He just did not want to kill her if he didn’t have to do so.
Going on a tangent here:
Strength-wise, I don't doubt that he could, but it reminds me of how underutilized Spider Sense is. That alone should tip the fight in Peter's favor by quite a lot. I'm not banking on it being used much then, either, but they really should take it into account more.
Spider sense + agility should make Spider-Man nearly invincible. They nerf him so much. It’s like Flash / Quicksilver or even Superman. Super speed would make you basically god. All of your attacks would be lethal and you could never be attacked unless you were completely unaware.
uh... Spidey is extremely strong. He got hit by a train going full speed in Spidey 2 and literally walked off his injuries in less than 24 hours. That impact would have killed a lot of the Avengers.
Kingpin in Hawkeye felt more like his comic book counterpart in terms of strength/durability.
But MCU Spidey is beyond Super-Soldier levels of strength. He even almost was able to pull the Infinity Gauntlet off if Thanos’s hand.
Thats what's so great about Spidey. Hes this kid that pulls his punches and generally tries to be the friendly neighbourhood hero. Everyone underestimates him.
In the 1980s secret wars, sort of. He didn’t “beat” them as none of them took any damage. He was trying to escape after overhearing a conversation they wanted private. They didn’t want him to leave. He webbed a few up, dodged around a bunch and escaped without them laying anything on him. Prof X could’ve stopped him at any point and didn’t.
I’m reminded of the Superior Spider-Man arc where Doc Ock inhabits Peter’s body. He gets into a fight with Vulture and punches Vulture’s jaw off. Octavius then realizes he only ever stood a chance against Spider-Man because Parker was *always* holding back.
Possible Echo and Daredevil Born Again Spoilers >!Its rumor that in Echo, Fisk is running for mayor of New York. During Daredevil, Fisk will win the election and the show will end with him making mask superheroes illegal in New York with the fallout of this being the focus of Spider-Man 4's plot!<
I'd say NYC would have to be pretty fucking stupid to >!elect a guy who was rotting in federal prison for organized crime and multiple murders (and corrupting the NY branch of FBI to do his dirty work) then broke out during the Blip...!<
But given reality, it's regretably believable.
The comic story this goes off of is rather interesting. It's called Devil's Reign. And most of the shit Kingpin gets away with is because he controls the media and underground. But in this particular story he controls the Purple man and his powers, which kinda just fuck everything up type of way.
That said I do like the legal shenanigans they get up to in this comic run and hope to god that they can do even half that in the daredevil series
Well that does sound like it ties in with some of the rumors for what was originally planned for D+'s reboot of Daredevil
>!Matt is looking for Jessica Jones who disappeared after the Blip, possibly relating to the Purple Man or his "kids". But they couldn't bring her actress back so they changed it to him looking for the Punisher.!<
That Spider-Man decides to go up against Kingpin, and in response, à la the [“I’ve got money”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuL1ygw_U3g) *Invincible* scene, Kingpin pays [six or so individuals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinister_Six) to beat him.
I once mentioned to Vince on Twatter how Sidney Greenstreet would have made a Menacing Wilson Fisk, and he agreed. Vince get's that old school NOIR vibe.
Eh, i don't like his portreyal in Hawkeye (most likely due to direction the director currently are going for.) He felt off. Like that scene where he fought kate bishop. It all just came off as trying too hard and ended up look like overreacting and silly. Too 'MCU-ified' for my liking.
I think he's much more subtle in Daredevil. He doesn't look like he's in rage all the time. He kept it all in him and apply only when needed. Hopefully the director/showrunner handling it better here. And bring his Daredevil's version back.
The fact that this is TV-MA is genuinely surprising wow. They really kept that secret till the end, when you would think they would announce that aspect right at the beginning
Yes this bodes well for daredevil! As happy as I was to see him in Hawkeye they matched the more fun tone of the show and I was a little worried that he’d just be kingpin lite under Disney. I’ve been pretty burned out by all of Disney’s content but if they can shake it up and maybe learn from what made the Netflix shows good (and bad) maybe we can get a marvel New York that’s actually good, complete with a freshly anonymous spider man I’d be ecstatic!
I wonder if the fact that this is TV-MA made them go over the new Daredevil series and think, "Yeah, we need to bring this up to TV-MA level as well in order to fit." Which led them to scrap the majority of it and start over. Because if Echo is as brutal as the trailer makes it out to be, Daredevil needs to be just as brutal. Otherwise, fans are not going to like it.
The rating gives me hope for upcoming Daredevil.. That needs to be dark like the Netflix show
Also I think a show a glimpse of Daredevil in that tent shadow shot
I mean, I sort of get it.
If it had told us this would be TV-MA, would we really have believed them? The MCU has promised a lot of stuff. They're crying wolf right now.
But you put out a trailer....and have Fisk straight up *murdering* a guy on screen? Lingering on the violence? A dude getting shot in the face? THAT speaks waaay more than whatever bs Feige could say.
This is the brutality that he promised with Moon Knight.
So yeah, silence is the best move here. Shut up, deliver us good stuff, and just let that speak for itself. I can respect it.
Nah. If you look back on the trailer of secret invasion you can see how small scale and ugly it looked from the start.
Our expectations were covering the red flags.
Hopefully this show will be good 🤞
I thought season 1 was good the whole time till it ended without resolving a god damn thing. Waiting for season 2 to end before starting it to avoid that feeling xD
If it helps, there've been a few interviews with the writers where they've said that they had always envisioned the story as playing out across two seasons. They didn't rule out a third season, but said that the story they wanted to tell was always two seasons, so I'm expecting this season finale will feel a lot more conclusive.
Yeah, I'll admit after Hawkeye I had zero interest in this character (Pizzadog was a better character than Echo!) but this show has a very rich pedigree indeed. Maybe they can do something worthwhile with Echo.
And VD's Kingpin is absolutely awesome and I'm always here for more.
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I'm more cautiously optimistic because the head writer of this show was a big fan of Netflix DD and has been gushing about working on this. Seems like Marvel didn't interfere much with this project like they did Secret Invasion.
also the writing team that they had all worked on Reservation Dogs, which is legitimately fucking fantastic. And there's also a good amount of native american representation in the staff to write a story, which is also really fantastic.
You can gauge tone and most other aspects from a trailer. Secret Invasion was pretty much exactly what the trailers showed. If anyone over hyped themselves, then that's more on themselves than a trailer.
People were sooooo pumped for Age of Ultron after that [strings trailer.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmeOjFno6Do) God it would have been glorious if we'd got the film that trailer promised and Spader hadn't been so wasted.
My concern was always that marvel was doing this show to get social media engagement. But if they can actually do a great show with a small character, great.
Giving creatives room to be creative, who would of thunk it?
I will say that Loki is managing to be both central to the whole thing and *somehow* getting away with being completely wild.
> Giving creatives room to be creative, who would of thunk it?
Well, Disney. they used to do that quite a bit. Then they saw the dollar signs and started keeping their claws into everything
The problem with disney is there are a ton of people in disney who are adamant that everything be sanitized and uninteresting because they believe that is what children enjoy.
This is really evident with The Mandalorian S1 and S2. (I’m including S2 because they shot it before S1 ended.)
It was just the Star Wars show going to TV when they still had Episode IX headed to cinemas.
When that turned shit, and Mandalorian was the GOAT, they turned their attention to it and now we have Book of Boba Fett, Mando S3, Kenobi and I personally didn’t like Ahsoka.
And of course Andor flew under their radar and now it is the GOAT.
Pretty excited for The Acolyte. Brand new characters + setting pretty much guarantees Disney won’t give it the time of day and it’ll be amazing.
I think it’s most evident in Star Wars when you look at the publishing side of Star Wars, which almost feels like an entirely different franchise because it’s not getting filed down and sanitized.
You’d **never** get something like Loden Greatstorm’s story( >!tortured to near death, including being surrounded by the pain and suffering of other prisoners, so even the Force isn’t a refuge for him, and eventually has his soul eaten by a Force-Eating monster!< ) in live action. They wouldn’t *dare* do that to someone like Ahsoka.
Same with the shit ton of main characters who just happen to be LGBT, which works in part *because it’s so common that it’s not a big deal.* Never gonna happen in live action, they’re lucky to be seen outside of quick background shots.
Wait wait WAIT this genuinely looks very good and seems to capture the vibe of the Netflix shows. First TV-MA show in the MCU? Also is that a Daredevil sighting around the 1:27 mark?!
Which is why the "who asked for this?" attitude is so annoying. Acting like things can only be good if it's something you know you already want. As if no one can come up with a good story that you haven't already conceived of.
Who asked for a prequel about a dead character for Rogue One?
Who asked for a spin-off show about an alternate version of an anti-hero from Thor?
Who asked for a superhero show that's a sendup to classic TV sitcoms?
I distinctly remember seeing the line-up for MCU’s TV shows when they were first announced. I was extremely excited for Falcon/Winter Soldier, intrigued by Wandavision, and dismissing Loki entirely.
Loki took me completely by surprise, as I’m sure it did with many others.
FatWS however…
This is precisely why 'fans' make awful creative choices.
Coincidentally, their attitude also feeds into risk aversion at the studios. It's the same thing with people saying they want original ideas for movies and tv shows but then don't watch the ones that are being made.
Even better. This could launch a line of TV-MA Marvel productions if they stick the landing. It could be the return of the Netflix Marvel shows with possibly more characters and crossover potential.
I mean…some heroes are better suited for that, but the productions can possibly do both - family friendly plots and grittier stories.
Daredevil has shown that. Characters like Captain America have done so in the comics.
Yea it's silly to think that somehow TV-MA correlates to quality and "PG-13" doesn't. You could have added blood and gore and other TV-MA stuff to something like Secret Invasion and it still would have sucked hard.
It's about the writing my friends. Something PG can have better writing than something MA, and vice versa. All people want is well-made regardless of anything else.
For example, this season of Loki is still TV14 but pretty great, because it's well-made and decently written.
This is true, but when a scene or story beat calls for brutality and you have to kneecap yourself to stay within the age rating, that can also be a problem. I'm not saying that's happened a lot so far in the MCU, but there have undoubtedly been times when they have held themselves back.
I'm light weight excited for that one. The director and writing team did the series "Beef" and that was dope as fuck. Plus all the characters in that movie are really interesting
Yeah what the hell, this trailer actually fucks hard. I did NOT expect that whatsoever, let alone a hard TV-MA rating. Let's hope the final product delivers
This is what Disney needs for marvel, they need it to be less Disney.
Sure we can have plenty of tv pg and tv 14, but people who were 14 during endgame are 18 now. Time for the MCU to evolve and grow
I don't like violence for violence's sake, but I am *deeply* comforted that this trailer just straight opens up with Kingpin throwing a tantrum and beating an ice cream vendor to death with his bare hands. Some of these shows need to be TV-MA and I'm glad they finally realized that, although I'm going to stay skeptical considering the first scene of Moon Knight was a guy crushing glass and pouring it into his shoes to walk around on and then the rest of the show was basically pretty tame.
I cannot believe how badly they fucked up Moon knight, never read the comics but that first episode had so much mystery and promise, and seeing them just devolve into a generic bland superhero story felt like such a let down. That show completely didn’t deserve Oscar Isaac he was easily the best part of that show
All of the episodes premiere on Disney+ & Hulu on January 10
It's the first TV-MA Disney+ series
>After the events of Hawkeye, Maya Lopez/Echo goes back to her home in Oklahoma and meets with her tribe of fearsome warriors who mentor her in her journey of reconnecting with her culture and spiritual beliefs to fight a new uprising threat.
>Wilson Fisk, Maya's adoptive father and boss is back after Maya shot him in the eye, leaving him with an eye patch, and reunites with his daughter. Matt Murdock also makes yet another return in an MCU project before his solo series, Daredevil: Born Again.
Full Cast:
* Alaqua Cox as Maya Lopez/Echo
* Vincent D'Onofrio as Wilson Fisk/Kingpin
* Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock/Daredevil
* Chaske Spencer as Henry
* Tantoo Cardinal as Chula
* Devery Jacobs as Bonnie
* Cody Lightning as Cousin Buiscits
* Graham Greene as Skully
* Zach McClarnon as William Lopez
Also the “who asked for this?” argument is so stupid. There’s a bunch of products, tv shows, movies, video games, absolutely fucking anything that was never asked for which turned out to be hugely successful. So what if it wasn’t asked for? If it’s good then it’s good.
This actually looks amazing. Vibes remind me of the Daredevil & Punisher Netflix show in terms of brutality/gore. Hopefully, when the series drops, the story will be as good as the visuals.
Oh, the fact that they relegated this as a post-holiday throwaway with all the episodes up at once means it's going to be their critical darling and something they should've absolutely raised up as a major feature.
It's almost like right now if Kathleen Kennedy & Kevin Feige have a poster as to what should be the key marketing focus vs. the throwaways, you should just flip it the other way and do that instead.
Kennedy's instincts about Star Wars have been borderline fraudulent and I think Feige is now losing the script on what makes super hero movies good (Hint: not doing the same thing for every. single. movie).
Didn't Andor have lower viewership than Obi Wan? I mean obviously a well known character vs an unknown one, but they may be thinking quality doesn't really matter.
*Andor*, while a great show, was definitely not meant for all audiences, even among Star Wars fans.
Instead of action packed, it was mainly focused on dialogue. Instead of fast moving, it was methodical. Some were intrigued while others were bored.
Yeah there are reason why Mandalorian remain highly popular. That show balance both way better for majority of audience.
Andor take awhile to get it going. Some episode basicaly doesn't have a shootout. it was much more of a spy show. Just intrigued, politics and scheming.
…or they’re just testing the waters for this relatively unknown Marvel character - one who isn’t even that popular among comic fans.
In my opinion, releasing all the episodes at once is a wise idea to keep hype high for the entire run. This is gonna be niche by its existence because the heroine is obscure and the work is TV-MA, which is going to cut out a big portion of the typical MCU fanbase.
For context for people who don't know, Echo was at best a supporting character in Daredevil or Avengers comics. Her one recent solo run was when she literally has the power of the Phoenix force, which is very clearly not what is gonna happen here.
>Kennedy's instincts about Star Wars have been borderline fraudulent
Makes multiple billion dollar movies, launches massively popular TV show that is a genuine cultural phenomenon in it's own right and launches it's own little universe of shows with a theatrical film to cap it off, and releases a gritty drama series that gets rave reviews from critics and fans alike.
Yea, she's clearly awful at her job...
TV-MA, people from BCS and Reservation Dogs involved and the trailer looks more similar to the Netflix shows than the D+ ones...
I don't want to get my hopes up, but this feels different for the MCU, hopefully I'm right
i hope the show has a great soundtrack to make up for the fact that the main character is deaf/mute and thus won't talk. If they show scenesin silence I will likely fall asleep lol
Ok, that's an incredible trailer. They're definitely leaning towards the Netflix Marvel shows in terms of tone, I hope they keep that for Daredevil as well.
This series has had a ton of issues behind the scenes, plus all the stuff that's happening with Marvel right now, they might finally have a hit again.
This legit looks pretty decent.
Giving me Andor vibes, a show about a side character no one is interested yet turns out to be one of the better shows in the franchise. Fingers xed the final product is as good as the trailer is looking
It’s funny how Disney seems to give these “nobody shows” (like this and Andor) to way better creative talent than their “main shows” (Obi-Wan, etc).
The suits at Disney aren’t stupid, but why do they keep letting what should be their biggest hits languish in mediocrity?
The issue is paradoxical. It's *because* those other characters are bigger deals that Disney micromanages them too much. A lesser known hero doesn't have that much oversight because in their minds, why pour their energy on a property people don't know about?
The main heroes have gotten crappy stuff lately because Disney (ironically) interferes too much.
As a Deaf/HoH WoC, I can't tell you how excited I am for this series and for a Deaf lead to shine! This trailer looks incredible! Excited to see Alaqua and more of Maya. I spy a little Daredevil in here as well! (Manifesting a Makkari cameo somehow, just her gold streak passing through? 🥺)
I feel like this is the type of thing to combat superhero fatigue. This genuinely looks interesting, not everything has to be like Thor love and thunder.
I'm tired of Marvel at this point but the head writer of this show worked for Better Call Saul so I'm going to give it a watch. Also it looks like there's gonna be so much violence, something I was expecting for Moon Knight but it ended up being underwhelming.
This is Disney's first live action TV-MA/R rated outing.
And if this is then Daredevil *has* to follow the same route.
I can't believe I'm saying this but Feige migtht actually be allowing a project to be anything but back to formula.
I can't believe I'm going to be watching the MCU again. The last time I did was Doctor Strange 2.
"They are giving echo her own show"
Me: \*Eye Roll\*
\*Trailer gets released\*
Me: They actually are going forward? Ok, thats dumb
\*Watches Trailer\*
Me: "Huh, that looks kinda good"
Well shit. Thought this was going to be a waste but the trailer looks great. And...Punisher cameo? Maybe this is the reboot to the more gritty street level Marvel stuff Netflix started.
I have to say, this is the first Marvel production I'm probably going to wait on others to watch and tell me if it's any good before I watch myself.
Been burned too many times lately and I have almost no interest in this character or storyline.
It looks basically what I expected.
I think a big thing we are learning with the Disney shows is that smaller contained stories are better than world shaking stories.
I think Echo could be a strong story that people get hooked on.
I do like that they are dropping every episode at once. I think it's going to make the story more compelling. I hate this idea that the broadcast format has to be a one way fits all. I do think you have to look at the story you're trying to tell and decide if its better with a drop all at once or week to week.
Hawkeye felt desperate for me to find the character interesting, and I just... didn't. The actress pulling the same-exact expression in every scene didn't help.
There's a baffling soft filter on *every shot* in this trailer that I'm hoping isn't in the final product, but one thing that leaves me genuinely curious is that this seems to be the first Marvel thing that actually leans into the violence. It makes me wonder for the tone of Daredevil.
Really leaning into Kingpin is smart, more D'Onofrio is always better
I am thinking there is not a better person they could have chosen to be Kingpin. I just hope the Spiderman also gets a chance at coming face to face with him.
D'Onofrio keeps bringing up beating the shit out of Spider-Man so much I'm convinced the rumours about the plot of Spider-Man 4 are correct.
Tom Holland: “I’m in danger.”
…especially since *Hawkeye* gave Kingpin more strength and durability. He can now feasibly go toe to toe, relatively so, with Spider-Man.
Ripped a car door right off of the hinges. Violently opening one instead of closing one this time.
Took an explosion to the face as well. The man is built like a tank.
lost his eye to the pistol shot
to be fair, eyes are squishier than bulletproof suede.
Source?
Basically was tossing Kate Bishop around with one arm. He could have killed her at any point. He just did not want to kill her if he didn’t have to do so.
Going on a tangent here: Strength-wise, I don't doubt that he could, but it reminds me of how underutilized Spider Sense is. That alone should tip the fight in Peter's favor by quite a lot. I'm not banking on it being used much then, either, but they really should take it into account more.
Spider sense + agility should make Spider-Man nearly invincible. They nerf him so much. It’s like Flash / Quicksilver or even Superman. Super speed would make you basically god. All of your attacks would be lethal and you could never be attacked unless you were completely unaware.
uh... Spidey is extremely strong. He got hit by a train going full speed in Spidey 2 and literally walked off his injuries in less than 24 hours. That impact would have killed a lot of the Avengers.
Kingpin in Hawkeye felt more like his comic book counterpart in terms of strength/durability. But MCU Spidey is beyond Super-Soldier levels of strength. He even almost was able to pull the Infinity Gauntlet off if Thanos’s hand.
Thats what's so great about Spidey. Hes this kid that pulls his punches and generally tries to be the friendly neighbourhood hero. Everyone underestimates him.
Yeah, didn’t he basically solo the X-Men once?
In the 1980s secret wars, sort of. He didn’t “beat” them as none of them took any damage. He was trying to escape after overhearing a conversation they wanted private. They didn’t want him to leave. He webbed a few up, dodged around a bunch and escaped without them laying anything on him. Prof X could’ve stopped him at any point and didn’t.
I’m reminded of the Superior Spider-Man arc where Doc Ock inhabits Peter’s body. He gets into a fight with Vulture and punches Vulture’s jaw off. Octavius then realizes he only ever stood a chance against Spider-Man because Parker was *always* holding back.
And the rumors are?
Possible Echo and Daredevil Born Again Spoilers >!Its rumor that in Echo, Fisk is running for mayor of New York. During Daredevil, Fisk will win the election and the show will end with him making mask superheroes illegal in New York with the fallout of this being the focus of Spider-Man 4's plot!<
I'd say NYC would have to be pretty fucking stupid to >!elect a guy who was rotting in federal prison for organized crime and multiple murders (and corrupting the NY branch of FBI to do his dirty work) then broke out during the Blip...!< But given reality, it's regretably believable.
It happened in the comics as well.
The comic story this goes off of is rather interesting. It's called Devil's Reign. And most of the shit Kingpin gets away with is because he controls the media and underground. But in this particular story he controls the Purple man and his powers, which kinda just fuck everything up type of way. That said I do like the legal shenanigans they get up to in this comic run and hope to god that they can do even half that in the daredevil series
Well that does sound like it ties in with some of the rumors for what was originally planned for D+'s reboot of Daredevil >!Matt is looking for Jessica Jones who disappeared after the Blip, possibly relating to the Purple Man or his "kids". But they couldn't bring her actress back so they changed it to him looking for the Punisher.!<
That Spider-Man decides to go up against Kingpin, and in response, à la the [“I’ve got money”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuL1ygw_U3g) *Invincible* scene, Kingpin pays [six or so individuals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinister_Six) to beat him.
It is rumored that Kingpin is going to be in it.
Can Holland show up for a cameo on a Disney+ series without Sony’s permission?
Nope.
I once mentioned to Vince on Twatter how Sidney Greenstreet would have made a Menacing Wilson Fisk, and he agreed. Vince get's that old school NOIR vibe.
He is pretty much leapt from the comic pages - smart, cunning, brutal, and vicious.
I'm glad you like him, hes D'onoforeveryone
True, dude was in Hawkeye for maybe all of five minutes yet every time he was on screen was hanging on to his every word.
Eh, i don't like his portreyal in Hawkeye (most likely due to direction the director currently are going for.) He felt off. Like that scene where he fought kate bishop. It all just came off as trying too hard and ended up look like overreacting and silly. Too 'MCU-ified' for my liking. I think he's much more subtle in Daredevil. He doesn't look like he's in rage all the time. He kept it all in him and apply only when needed. Hopefully the director/showrunner handling it better here. And bring his Daredevil's version back.
Honestly I only care about this show because of him and Daredevil
The fact that this is TV-MA is genuinely surprising wow. They really kept that secret till the end, when you would think they would announce that aspect right at the beginning
That guy literally gets shot in the face and it’s not even remotely hidden. This is going to be graphic af
Daredevil is in for a treat
Yes this bodes well for daredevil! As happy as I was to see him in Hawkeye they matched the more fun tone of the show and I was a little worried that he’d just be kingpin lite under Disney. I’ve been pretty burned out by all of Disney’s content but if they can shake it up and maybe learn from what made the Netflix shows good (and bad) maybe we can get a marvel New York that’s actually good, complete with a freshly anonymous spider man I’d be ecstatic!
I wonder if the fact that this is TV-MA made them go over the new Daredevil series and think, "Yeah, we need to bring this up to TV-MA level as well in order to fit." Which led them to scrap the majority of it and start over. Because if Echo is as brutal as the trailer makes it out to be, Daredevil needs to be just as brutal. Otherwise, fans are not going to like it.
The rating gives me hope for upcoming Daredevil.. That needs to be dark like the Netflix show Also I think a show a glimpse of Daredevil in that tent shadow shot
I mean, I sort of get it. If it had told us this would be TV-MA, would we really have believed them? The MCU has promised a lot of stuff. They're crying wolf right now. But you put out a trailer....and have Fisk straight up *murdering* a guy on screen? Lingering on the violence? A dude getting shot in the face? THAT speaks waaay more than whatever bs Feige could say. This is the brutality that he promised with Moon Knight. So yeah, silence is the best move here. Shut up, deliver us good stuff, and just let that speak for itself. I can respect it.
Head writer is a writer/story editor from Better Call Saul… I may actually have to watch this
I hope this will be the "Andor" that the MCU desperately needs now
We all thought that Secret Invasion would be the MCU’s Andor and we were wrong, hopefully this doesn’t screw it up
Nah. If you look back on the trailer of secret invasion you can see how small scale and ugly it looked from the start. Our expectations were covering the red flags. Hopefully this show will be good 🤞
Honestly, the second season of Loki is already that for the MCU
I thought season 1 was good the whole time till it ended without resolving a god damn thing. Waiting for season 2 to end before starting it to avoid that feeling xD
If it helps, there've been a few interviews with the writers where they've said that they had always envisioned the story as playing out across two seasons. They didn't rule out a third season, but said that the story they wanted to tell was always two seasons, so I'm expecting this season finale will feel a lot more conclusive.
Season 2 is definitely going to end the same, it’s an ongoing series
Wait a minute theres no fucking way, am I going to have to watch this now?
Shut up and take my money! I’m in.
Marion Dayre.
No fucking way
Yeah, I'll admit after Hawkeye I had zero interest in this character (Pizzadog was a better character than Echo!) but this show has a very rich pedigree indeed. Maybe they can do something worthwhile with Echo. And VD's Kingpin is absolutely awesome and I'm always here for more.
I will be there no matter what
And it also includes writers/directors from Reservation Dogs
Some of the people from Reservation Dogs and Stranger Things worked on this show as well I believe?
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This Kingpin looking like the proper Netflix DD Kingpin lord have mercy we are here
That motif of his shout recurring through the trailer is one of the most hype things I've seen in a long time
Almost like an echo…
If there’s one thing Marvel Studios knows how to do well is create a trailer, you can’t take that away from them
Yup. I’m tempering my expectations, however, because Secret Invasion also had a dope trailer and look how that turned out.
I'm more cautiously optimistic because the head writer of this show was a big fan of Netflix DD and has been gushing about working on this. Seems like Marvel didn't interfere much with this project like they did Secret Invasion.
also the writing team that they had all worked on Reservation Dogs, which is legitimately fucking fantastic. And there's also a good amount of native american representation in the staff to write a story, which is also really fantastic.
It’s also a TV-MA. Which gives me hope for this as well as Daredevil being TV-MA too.
I think you should rewatch it because its just Fury walking through a lot of doors slowly with a voice over. Not much happening.
Maybe it’s just me but the secret invasion trailers felt very fake to me
You can gauge tone and most other aspects from a trailer. Secret Invasion was pretty much exactly what the trailers showed. If anyone over hyped themselves, then that's more on themselves than a trailer.
that is true, their trailers always look good and sometimes even better than the product they are promoting
*Flashbacks to Age of Ultron intensify*
Hey now, I just rewatched that for the first time in years and it held up pretty well. I think even better of it after watching the last phase.
Anything will look good after watching the last Marvel movies to be fair.
They made it seem like ultron was going to be super menacing and fucked up. Then he was just another quip machine that got his ass kicked.
People were sooooo pumped for Age of Ultron after that [strings trailer.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmeOjFno6Do) God it would have been glorious if we'd got the film that trailer promised and Spader hadn't been so wasted.
Secret Invasion trailer looked good and intense. If only it was reflective of the actual series.
After watching this, I went back and rewatched the trailer for the first Jessica Jones series. My god, the trailers were next level even back then.
It’d be so funny if Echo is the best Disney+ MCU show lol let’s Andor this bitch, see what show no one asked for now
My concern was always that marvel was doing this show to get social media engagement. But if they can actually do a great show with a small character, great.
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Giving creatives room to be creative, who would of thunk it? I will say that Loki is managing to be both central to the whole thing and *somehow* getting away with being completely wild.
> Giving creatives room to be creative, who would of thunk it? Well, Disney. they used to do that quite a bit. Then they saw the dollar signs and started keeping their claws into everything
The problem with disney is there are a ton of people in disney who are adamant that everything be sanitized and uninteresting because they believe that is what children enjoy.
This is really evident with The Mandalorian S1 and S2. (I’m including S2 because they shot it before S1 ended.) It was just the Star Wars show going to TV when they still had Episode IX headed to cinemas. When that turned shit, and Mandalorian was the GOAT, they turned their attention to it and now we have Book of Boba Fett, Mando S3, Kenobi and I personally didn’t like Ahsoka. And of course Andor flew under their radar and now it is the GOAT. Pretty excited for The Acolyte. Brand new characters + setting pretty much guarantees Disney won’t give it the time of day and it’ll be amazing.
I think it’s most evident in Star Wars when you look at the publishing side of Star Wars, which almost feels like an entirely different franchise because it’s not getting filed down and sanitized. You’d **never** get something like Loden Greatstorm’s story( >!tortured to near death, including being surrounded by the pain and suffering of other prisoners, so even the Force isn’t a refuge for him, and eventually has his soul eaten by a Force-Eating monster!< ) in live action. They wouldn’t *dare* do that to someone like Ahsoka. Same with the shit ton of main characters who just happen to be LGBT, which works in part *because it’s so common that it’s not a big deal.* Never gonna happen in live action, they’re lucky to be seen outside of quick background shots.
Honestly, a more mature rating is probably needed to shake up the stagnation that Disney has settled into.
Wait wait WAIT this genuinely looks very good and seems to capture the vibe of the Netflix shows. First TV-MA show in the MCU? Also is that a Daredevil sighting around the 1:27 mark?!
Imagine this ends up being the **'Andor'** of the Marvel Disney+ shows. Lol.
The "Who asked for this?" to "God we need more of this" is not an arc that I was expecting for both these shows .
Which is why the "who asked for this?" attitude is so annoying. Acting like things can only be good if it's something you know you already want. As if no one can come up with a good story that you haven't already conceived of. Who asked for a prequel about a dead character for Rogue One? Who asked for a spin-off show about an alternate version of an anti-hero from Thor? Who asked for a superhero show that's a sendup to classic TV sitcoms?
Even if you ignore established franchises. Most good movies and shows aren't something people asked for.
I would say lots of people wanted more Loki and Wanda.
I distinctly remember seeing the line-up for MCU’s TV shows when they were first announced. I was extremely excited for Falcon/Winter Soldier, intrigued by Wandavision, and dismissing Loki entirely. Loki took me completely by surprise, as I’m sure it did with many others. FatWS however…
This is precisely why 'fans' make awful creative choices. Coincidentally, their attitude also feeds into risk aversion at the studios. It's the same thing with people saying they want original ideas for movies and tv shows but then don't watch the ones that are being made.
I actually did ask for the last one but I was high
Even better. This could launch a line of TV-MA Marvel productions if they stick the landing. It could be the return of the Netflix Marvel shows with possibly more characters and crossover potential.
And hopefully they would continue the higher age ratings with Blade and Deadpool. Audiences are sick of PG-13 filler against CGI villains of the week.
I mean…some heroes are better suited for that, but the productions can possibly do both - family friendly plots and grittier stories. Daredevil has shown that. Characters like Captain America have done so in the comics.
Yea it's silly to think that somehow TV-MA correlates to quality and "PG-13" doesn't. You could have added blood and gore and other TV-MA stuff to something like Secret Invasion and it still would have sucked hard. It's about the writing my friends. Something PG can have better writing than something MA, and vice versa. All people want is well-made regardless of anything else. For example, this season of Loki is still TV14 but pretty great, because it's well-made and decently written.
This is true, but when a scene or story beat calls for brutality and you have to kneecap yourself to stay within the age rating, that can also be a problem. I'm not saying that's happened a lot so far in the MCU, but there have undoubtedly been times when they have held themselves back.
God, I would kill for a new Punisher season with Jon Bernthal
Maybe having no pre conceived expectations for certain characters means they can lean into it more
secret invasion had a good trailer. look how that turned out lmao
Yes Charlie Cox is going to be in this!
Yup! Matt and Fisk joined the MCU in two different projects in the same week and now they’ll finally be together again.
We're finally getting an answer to deaf vs blind?
Throw in Black Bolt and we got mute covered
Black Bolt isn't mute though
what a time to be alive
Oh sweet. I thought it was US Agent when I watched but Daredevil definitely makes more sense
Can’t wait for US Agent’s return in Thunderbolts, Wyatt Russell plays him so well.
I'm light weight excited for that one. The director and writing team did the series "Beef" and that was dope as fuck. Plus all the characters in that movie are really interesting
Yeah what the hell, this trailer actually fucks hard. I did NOT expect that whatsoever, let alone a hard TV-MA rating. Let's hope the final product delivers
The show runner here has gushed about how much they loved the Netflix Daredevil show before.
This is what Disney needs for marvel, they need it to be less Disney. Sure we can have plenty of tv pg and tv 14, but people who were 14 during endgame are 18 now. Time for the MCU to evolve and grow
I don't like violence for violence's sake, but I am *deeply* comforted that this trailer just straight opens up with Kingpin throwing a tantrum and beating an ice cream vendor to death with his bare hands. Some of these shows need to be TV-MA and I'm glad they finally realized that, although I'm going to stay skeptical considering the first scene of Moon Knight was a guy crushing glass and pouring it into his shoes to walk around on and then the rest of the show was basically pretty tame.
I cannot believe how badly they fucked up Moon knight, never read the comics but that first episode had so much mystery and promise, and seeing them just devolve into a generic bland superhero story felt like such a let down. That show completely didn’t deserve Oscar Isaac he was easily the best part of that show
Agreed on every point here.
Ice cream vendor had it coming. Just open your cart up and let her point
Looked like he was straight up mocking her on top of that. Big mistake.
Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!
All of the episodes premiere on Disney+ & Hulu on January 10 It's the first TV-MA Disney+ series >After the events of Hawkeye, Maya Lopez/Echo goes back to her home in Oklahoma and meets with her tribe of fearsome warriors who mentor her in her journey of reconnecting with her culture and spiritual beliefs to fight a new uprising threat. >Wilson Fisk, Maya's adoptive father and boss is back after Maya shot him in the eye, leaving him with an eye patch, and reunites with his daughter. Matt Murdock also makes yet another return in an MCU project before his solo series, Daredevil: Born Again. Full Cast: * Alaqua Cox as Maya Lopez/Echo * Vincent D'Onofrio as Wilson Fisk/Kingpin * Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock/Daredevil * Chaske Spencer as Henry * Tantoo Cardinal as Chula * Devery Jacobs as Bonnie * Cody Lightning as Cousin Buiscits * Graham Greene as Skully * Zach McClarnon as William Lopez
Seeing the **'Reservation Dogs'** crew on screen & behind the scenes for a Marvel project about a Native American superhero is just so awesome.
Yep, I just finished Dogs and it was so good all the way through. I hadn't even planned on watching Echo but now will give it a shot.
Oklahoma is quickly becoming a major location for movies and tv. It's so weird to see as a resident lol.
What an amazing cast, always happy to see Devery Jacobs and Tantoo Cardinal on my TV.
Jacobs was incredible in Reservation Dogs. Glad to see her in something else so soon after it ended.
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Reddit every day for two years: *WhO aSkEd FoR tHiS?!* Reddit today: wait hold on
I keep visualizing that girl drinking kombucha meme
Also the “who asked for this?” argument is so stupid. There’s a bunch of products, tv shows, movies, video games, absolutely fucking anything that was never asked for which turned out to be hugely successful. So what if it wasn’t asked for? If it’s good then it’s good.
Flashbacks to the announcement of the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie
The *Andor effect*
This actually looks amazing. Vibes remind me of the Daredevil & Punisher Netflix show in terms of brutality/gore. Hopefully, when the series drops, the story will be as good as the visuals.
I've been burned so much but would laugh my ass off if this ended up being the MCU's ANDOR
it's basically daredevil season 3.5, but I'm all for it if the writing quality matches.
Oh, the fact that they relegated this as a post-holiday throwaway with all the episodes up at once means it's going to be their critical darling and something they should've absolutely raised up as a major feature. It's almost like right now if Kathleen Kennedy & Kevin Feige have a poster as to what should be the key marketing focus vs. the throwaways, you should just flip it the other way and do that instead. Kennedy's instincts about Star Wars have been borderline fraudulent and I think Feige is now losing the script on what makes super hero movies good (Hint: not doing the same thing for every. single. movie).
Didn't Andor have lower viewership than Obi Wan? I mean obviously a well known character vs an unknown one, but they may be thinking quality doesn't really matter.
*Andor*, while a great show, was definitely not meant for all audiences, even among Star Wars fans. Instead of action packed, it was mainly focused on dialogue. Instead of fast moving, it was methodical. Some were intrigued while others were bored.
Yeah there are reason why Mandalorian remain highly popular. That show balance both way better for majority of audience. Andor take awhile to get it going. Some episode basicaly doesn't have a shootout. it was much more of a spy show. Just intrigued, politics and scheming.
…or they’re just testing the waters for this relatively unknown Marvel character - one who isn’t even that popular among comic fans. In my opinion, releasing all the episodes at once is a wise idea to keep hype high for the entire run. This is gonna be niche by its existence because the heroine is obscure and the work is TV-MA, which is going to cut out a big portion of the typical MCU fanbase.
For context for people who don't know, Echo was at best a supporting character in Daredevil or Avengers comics. Her one recent solo run was when she literally has the power of the Phoenix force, which is very clearly not what is gonna happen here.
>Kennedy's instincts about Star Wars have been borderline fraudulent Makes multiple billion dollar movies, launches massively popular TV show that is a genuine cultural phenomenon in it's own right and launches it's own little universe of shows with a theatrical film to cap it off, and releases a gritty drama series that gets rave reviews from critics and fans alike. Yea, she's clearly awful at her job...
Hold up...let them cook. TV-MA? MCU? Not bad.
TV-MA, people from BCS and Reservation Dogs involved and the trailer looks more similar to the Netflix shows than the D+ ones... I don't want to get my hopes up, but this feels different for the MCU, hopefully I'm right
The TV MA is already different. It's the first MA anything Marvel Studios has done
wait why are they dropping all the episodes at once?
they’re either confidednt people will like it even if they don’t know who echo is or they’re unconfident that it’s interesting
They're experimenting with it for this show.
Seeing as how most of these shows are “six hour movies” it may be a smart move.
Probably because this show will have very small viewership compared to other D+ shows which starred incredibly popular superheroes unlike Echo.
I'm guessing their engagement metrics are showing people fall off week to week
NOW WE'RE TALKING! Excellent teaser. Post John Wick Marvel and I am THERE!
Me seeing the thread title - "Oh yeah I forgot about this, who even wants this?" Me after the trailer - "I want this"
Had little interest in this until I saw Kingpin beating the shit out of someone until his knuckles bled.
I don’t think that was Fisk’s blood…
It definitely wasn't
Why are people putting blood on his fists? Rude.
i hope the show has a great soundtrack to make up for the fact that the main character is deaf/mute and thus won't talk. If they show scenesin silence I will likely fall asleep lol
For the love of God I hope they hired some decent fight coordinators, with less 1 second cut editing during fights I'm begging
This trailer was a lot better than I expected! I'll be tuning in!
It looked great but they used my most hated TV trope... _You and I, we're the same._ In verbatim. Ugh. Really?
Looks good. I hope it's not dumb.
This looks far more violent than I was expecting.
Ok, that's an incredible trailer. They're definitely leaning towards the Netflix Marvel shows in terms of tone, I hope they keep that for Daredevil as well. This series has had a ton of issues behind the scenes, plus all the stuff that's happening with Marvel right now, they might finally have a hit again.
Looks like "The Punisher 2.0." Also, Kingpin and Echo together give me vibes of Thanos and young Gamora.
This legit looks pretty decent. Giving me Andor vibes, a show about a side character no one is interested yet turns out to be one of the better shows in the franchise. Fingers xed the final product is as good as the trailer is looking
I am so unreasonably excited for this, I dunno why.
Because it looks fucking good!! That’s why! :-)
It’s funny how Disney seems to give these “nobody shows” (like this and Andor) to way better creative talent than their “main shows” (Obi-Wan, etc). The suits at Disney aren’t stupid, but why do they keep letting what should be their biggest hits languish in mediocrity?
The issue is paradoxical. It's *because* those other characters are bigger deals that Disney micromanages them too much. A lesser known hero doesn't have that much oversight because in their minds, why pour their energy on a property people don't know about? The main heroes have gotten crappy stuff lately because Disney (ironically) interferes too much.
As a Deaf/HoH WoC, I can't tell you how excited I am for this series and for a Deaf lead to shine! This trailer looks incredible! Excited to see Alaqua and more of Maya. I spy a little Daredevil in here as well! (Manifesting a Makkari cameo somehow, just her gold streak passing through? 🥺)
All episodes at once?! The way it should always be done. This week to week bullshit doesn’t work for me.
I feel like this is the type of thing to combat superhero fatigue. This genuinely looks interesting, not everything has to be like Thor love and thunder.
Okay this looks great I'm hyped. They better play her theme it is a fucking banger!
Omg this looks amazing. It’s dark and f’d up! Gives me hope for DD
Ok Disney! About time.
I'm tired of Marvel at this point but the head writer of this show worked for Better Call Saul so I'm going to give it a watch. Also it looks like there's gonna be so much violence, something I was expecting for Moon Knight but it ended up being underwhelming.
This is Disney's first live action TV-MA/R rated outing. And if this is then Daredevil *has* to follow the same route. I can't believe I'm saying this but Feige migtht actually be allowing a project to be anything but back to formula. I can't believe I'm going to be watching the MCU again. The last time I did was Doctor Strange 2.
I really wish Hawkeye and Falcon/Winter Soldier had this vibe. This feels like an extension of Netflix DD.
Reddit: Disney couldn’t make a violent Punisher show. Echo: Hold my beer.
Oh shit I had no interest in this show until the TV-MA rating. Hopefully this is an actual fleshed out show like Loki or Andor.
Literally having a ''we're not so different you and I" in the trailer? Bold.
Wasn't hopeful at all. However, that looks awesome.
OG Thor gone baaaad
"They are giving echo her own show" Me: \*Eye Roll\* \*Trailer gets released\* Me: They actually are going forward? Ok, thats dumb \*Watches Trailer\* Me: "Huh, that looks kinda good"
fullseason dump.... no faith in the product but at least the violence is on point
NOT THIS LOOKING GENUINELY GOOD?!
Well shit. Thought this was going to be a waste but the trailer looks great. And...Punisher cameo? Maybe this is the reboot to the more gritty street level Marvel stuff Netflix started.
All episodes at once! Thank god.
Damn that looks brutal. Hell freaking Yeah!!! Can't wait.
DD sighted. shit, i had not interest until now.
I have to say, this is the first Marvel production I'm probably going to wait on others to watch and tell me if it's any good before I watch myself. Been burned too many times lately and I have almost no interest in this character or storyline.
It looks basically what I expected. I think a big thing we are learning with the Disney shows is that smaller contained stories are better than world shaking stories. I think Echo could be a strong story that people get hooked on. I do like that they are dropping every episode at once. I think it's going to make the story more compelling. I hate this idea that the broadcast format has to be a one way fits all. I do think you have to look at the story you're trying to tell and decide if its better with a drop all at once or week to week.
gives me hope for daredevil and punisher tbh
Hawkeye felt desperate for me to find the character interesting, and I just... didn't. The actress pulling the same-exact expression in every scene didn't help. There's a baffling soft filter on *every shot* in this trailer that I'm hoping isn't in the final product, but one thing that leaves me genuinely curious is that this seems to be the first Marvel thing that actually leans into the violence. It makes me wonder for the tone of Daredevil.
Am I officially over all this??