It's a fucking superb show, everything about it is brilliant, the sets and locations, the acting, the writing, the sound design and score, the graphics when they're used - just a compelling and thoroughly satisfying show. I didn't realise that it's based on a book and there was an older adaptation of it, but I love this one dearly, and I'm glad it's getting this acclaim.
> I didn't realise that it's based on a book
The book is much better IMO. As good as the show was they did Blackthorne and Mariko dirty. Especially Blackthorne. He's way smarter/more capable in the books.
I loved every moment of the show until the last five minutes of the last episode. I only recently finished it so I’m not sure what the consensus is, but I can’t be the only one who felt like they rushed it?
The scene itself was beautifully shot, but rather than Toranaga tell us how his master plan was going to unfold, I would very much have liked to see that unfold in real time, even if they made us wait until next season.
I remember when reading the book that this reveal was really cool. Toranaga revealing himself to be a master manipulator who'd pretty much already won was a powerful moment and I don't feel like seeing the whole campaign play out would land quite as powerfully as that "Oh shit he's a monster" moment.
Yeah I really enjoyed the ending. Typically in a story like Shogun Blackthorne would essentially play the role of a white savior but to turn it around and have Toranaga say that he was just a distraction was a great reveal. I think Blackthorne sort of taking a back seat during the mid point of the show sort of hurt the reveal slightly. Still a great ending none the less.
The book avoids that problem by having Blackthorne be the only PoV character. Even when he's essentially a side character, you still feel like he's important because he's the POV. As such, when the Toranaga twist is revealed it hits like a truck that Blackthorne is a nobody and Toranaga is playing a different game altogether.
The show decided not to make Blackthorne the central POV character and that's why the twist suffers a little bit. It's still pretty good and ultimately, adding the POVs of the others did add quite a bit to the show. They could have maybe fabricated a plotline for Blackthorne to make him appear a bit more important so that it would work better when the rug is pulled in front of the audience that he doesn't matter.
Well, if that's the way it happened in the books, I suppose I can't fault the show for doing the same.
However, in my mind the reveal needn't have been an entire campaign. I was thinking you'd have Toranaga get the letter from Lady Ochiba-no-kata, but either not tell us who it's from or not show his reaction to reading it. Then we see Yabushige's last moments. Basically everything happens just as it did, except he doesn't outline the events of the battle. Even his last line to Yabushige would make more sense this way - "Why tell a dead man the future?"
The reveal on the battlefield wouldn't really need to take much more time than the flash forward did, but we'd see Toranaga consult with his generals and probably Blackthorne who would all still be worried about their impending doom. That's when Ishido gets the letter and we get the satisfaction of witnessing his embarrassment and the Regents turning on him.
Of course, it's pretty arrogant of me to sit here and backseat drive James Clavell’s masterpiece as though I know better than him how the plot should unfold. I didn't know it was revealed to Yabushige in the book the same way as the series. And you make a good point about us getting hit with the full weight of his schemes all at once. He still needed to tell Yabushige about torching the Anjin's ship, so the punch wouldn't have landed the same way if it unfolded over two separate scenes.
> The scene itself was beautifully shot, but rather than Toranaga tell us how his master plan was going to unfold, I would very much have liked to see that unfold in real time, even if they made us wait until next season.
The book doesn't show the battle either. It really strikes home how Toranaga was 3000 IQ playing chess 10 moves ahead while everyone else thought they were playing Checkers.
Toranaga won before the first sword was drawn.
Hard disagree - that would completely go against most of the themes and subtlety the show did so well.
The fact that they didn't show the whole thing is genius. It shows how masterful Toranaga is that it is inevitable, he can read the wind perfectly, which is why that final shot of him and then the end title card should give you goosebumps. Shogun isn't a title he will achieve, its something he already is. The whole country is under his control. Remember the question at the start of the series? "What kind of man rules in such a land?"
If you've never read the novel or seen the original mini-series it's an incredible accomplishment. The sets, costumes, choreography and the brilliant acting, all are ground-breaking. All I can say to everyone admiring this production, read the novel. There is no comparison.
Dang. I really liked her from podcasts (Blank Check) and her writing in Vulture. Good on her for adapting something she loves and hitting it out of the park
And then filmed it right in my neighborhood! I recognized a lot of places in that show. There was a ship and a Japanese castle across from my local breweries for a while there.
Wow I am so psyched for this now. I was not aware he was working on that, but I've really appreciated Legion and Shogun so I feel optimistic. Something to look forward to!
The movie Alien: Romulus directed by Fede Alvarez is coming up this summer as well. Judging by the teaser and promotional pics it looks like they took a lot of inspiration from the game Alien: Isolation, which makes me think it's going to be fantastic.
God, succesfully translating the atmosphere of that game to the screen would be amazing, the biggest negative I've seen come up is that people can't complete it because it sucks you in so much and gets you to a point where you're too scared to continue playing. Really a masterpiece of a game for how connected you feel to it.
There were crucial clues in the original trailer that let me know it'd be fantastic (things that only someone who seriously read the book would understand).
So I was delighted when it was even better than I hoped.
(1) >!The hawk scene in the book is crucial for an early clue about how Toranaga manipulates or uses other people (with great patience).!<
(2) >!Mariko with the arrows in the ground (where she starts her final performance for Toranaga - she's literally the lynchpin for him to win the war, before it ever starts).!<
(3) >!And the "3 hearts" dialogue (for obvious reasons).!<
I nearly died when I saw all three in the first trailer and just *knew* that this would be a very serious effort.
From reading the showrunners and writers - it was a many years long journey in the making so be prepared to wait for quality like this to show up again.
Im actually surprised at this. Obviously the show is phenomenal, I just wouldn't have thought it had this much audience appeal considering it is mostly a reflective character piece and most of it is in japanese.
I feel like having a direct insert for the “foreigner” to anchor to makes it more broadly appealing than if it were strictly about the Japanese, but I admit this is a bit subjective and I love Japan’s history so I’m a little bias.
I was telling my friends that the original shogun show was interesting because they didn’t have subtitles until the Anjin starts learning Japanese. In the early episodes the viewers are as lost and confused as the character about what was happening around him. It was a pretty interesting dynamic.
Like you think about that first episode: they land in Japan and are immediately imprisoned, punished, and one of them is executed. Then he gets taken to Osaka Castle, is presented to Toranaga. He gets interpreted to by a hated enemy who he doesn’t trust to interpret for him, then this other lord shows up and seems to confront the guy you thought was the boss and this crazy stand off that you cannot understand occurs. You don’t know who Toranaga is, who Ishida is, or what just happened between them. Then Blackthorne gets taken to prison for some reason.
I watched a torrented copy of one of the Planet of the Apes movies with my Dad. We only realized after about an hour into the movie that there were supposed to be subtitles on the apes when they're "talking" (grunting and making ape noises), but the torrented file didn't include these.
We initially thought it was an artistic decision and you could kinda tell what was going on because the main ape dude speaks English. They also eventually find a little human girl so I kinda thought that the audience was supposed to be seeing the apes from her point-of-view or something. But no, we eventually realized something was off when there was entire conversation scenes that didn't really make any sense without subtitles.
[It was this movie I'm fairly certain](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwSB6e_0_M8&ab_channel=HsjsJsjsj). It was probably around this point where we realized something was wrong (imagine watching this scene without subtitles).
I had the same experience with the first of this series. It was in the scenes where the smart chimp was in a pen with an orangutan who could also communicate non verbally; about 2/3s into the movie. After a minute or so of no subtitles in a long conversation I realized omitting subtitles was not the directors choice but an inconvenience of the shady site I was watching the movie on.
Omg the same thing happened to me. The people I were watching it with hadn’t seen the movie before and I felt so bad.
I almost wish we got a Planet of the Apes with an intentional lack of subtitles. Probably very difficult to do
Agreed. Often the 'traveler in a foreign land' trope can be tiresome, but in this case, the social rules and dynamics of feudal Japan are so opaque to most viewers, that having a proxy undergoing a similar learning curve as they are is a great way to introduce the viewer to the dynamics.
Not only that, but they use the japanese vs. english subtitles as a plot point almost. You get a ton of character development just watching how Mariko does or does not translate things literally.
It must. As a personal example, my wife had no interest in watching this when the first episode was airing, but she saw the positive reviews it was getting and the attention from people online, and she was all about it within a few weeks. The great reactions it has gotten and positive word of mouth has definitely helped it a lot in the long run I'm sure.
Anecdotal: Only watched it cause several people referred to is as Game of thrones set in Feudal times. Wasn't that, but still a beautiful experience none the less.
It was similar to season 1 GoT. Probably the easiest comparison for pitching it to friends. And they don’t have to worry about it imploding on later seasons!
I don't know how much of the success is due to non-American markets, but in the rest of the world, people under 50 are used to watch subtitled shows (especially American ones obviously) so the fact that it is in Japanese wouldn't be an issue.
My kids, nieces, and nephews all watch subtitled shows. They leave the subtitles on for everything, even American shows. But they’re also watching Korean shows and tons of anime.
Gotta watch native language stuff with subtitles on anyways because all the stuff now is made with the assumption that I have a 360 degree sound bar it feels like.
Eh, I usually have to turn the subs off for native language stuff (assuming no heavy accents). I find them too distracting. Also encounter timing issues entirely too frequently.
Definitely, if the sound is mixed well and people talk in a manner that is understandable, no subtitles is the way to go. If I’m watching something by myself I’d rather put on headphones than turn on subtitles. I’ve grown up with subtitles as a non-native English speaker in a country that imports lots of British and American content, so I make no fuss about them. Yet, not having them on is what I ideally prefer.
I'm fluent in English and I've been English shows/movies with subtitles for years, because the sound mixing makes things hard to hear/understand. It's a HUGE difference to actually make out what the actors are hearing. Before subtitles, it would be putting up volume in talking scenes, then getting my ears blown off during an action part.
Sad but true. I've tried to recommend it to people so many times and they've never even heard of it. I think the generic-sounding title didn't do it a lot of favors either.
The only reason I heard about it to watch was because it ended up on some list of 'Amazing shows no one is watching.' Found the Leftovers from that list as well which was amazing.
Of the shows you listed, only The Bear started as a streaming title. The Americans & AHS were both on broadcast TV when streaming wasn't that big yet.
Shogun started as during the streaming era, and got heavily promoted by FX.
A part of it comes from appeal to older people who saw the original mini series. Back then there was much fewer things to watch. So ratings were very huge on anything that was good and had some crossover appeal. A ton of people watched it and it was good, so they had fun memories of it. And wanted to revisit that.
The original shogun show was huge in America and popularized samurai and ninja’s in the west. It’s also based on books written by a an American and a fictional retelling of an actual historical event.
I remember that weird period in the 80s when ninjas were the big thing. I mean there was a tv show with Lee Van Cleef as a ninja master. It was an amazing time.
I am ready for a ninjaissance
Yes, and was a Japanese POW. It’s actually amazing how he was able to come away with such a love for the culture considering the treatment he probably received.
He wrote a book based on his time at a POW camp called King Rat.
It’s a bit of a tough read because of how real his depiction is, but if you can get past that it’s an incredible book.
he naturalized as an american citizen in 1963. he released the book in 1975 so he was an american when it was published.
source: https://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/13/magazine/making-of-a-literary-shogun.html
> Though Clavell has yet to rule a nation or become a samurai, he does like to describe himself as ''half-Irish, half-arrogant'' (his mother was Irish; he is English by birth and an American citizen since 1963)
agreed. So many of my friends refuse to watch movies or shows i recommend in different languages.
I think it being dubbed "Japanese Game of Thrones" by many helped. Cant get any better marketing than that.
This is what you get when a story has a definite beginning and end. It goes out on top and is beloved, no time to churn out more and slowly bloat and get turned into a bad show. This is an example of quality and creativity joined in one producing financial success. To many media projects think only of financial success to the detriment of the other factors.
I’ve said it elsewhere on this thread, but could Gai Jin be the best book to make a tv series about?
I think we all kinda agree it’s the worst book but it might have an angle for tv.
They totally gonna give it to Jodie foster even tho her character sucked and it was some of the least impressive acting of foster’s entire career. Completely wasted her talent yet somehow she’s looked at as the frontrunner over Sawai and Juno temple which is insanity.
He was so snubbed man, I honestly thought his performance in ep8 was the best single episode performance in the GoT franchise and man didn’t even get a sniff from awards shows
Most of them loved it apparently. The initial reviews from Japan all praised how respectful the show was of their culture. Hiroyuki Sanada ensured that. And he also brought in people to help the show look as historically accurate as possible.
It *definitely* helped that it was a weekly release. I know people love all season drops, but imo it can suffer with that route. I still wish the fallout show was a weekly release (even though that did get crazy good views too)
edit: “suffer” is in relative terms, by the way. Not insinuating it would have crashed and burned if it was released all at once.
I agree. Not only does it make you think and anticipate the next episode everyone else is also on the same page if you wanted to discuss what happened. I find it weird how Amazon dropped Fallout all at once yet *Reacher* was the show they chose for weekly
I for one always wait for every episode to come out before I start watching a show anyways. Shogun was the only exception ever since GoT as the marketing got me super hyped even for episode 1 (specifically the insanely well made trailer that showed a quick background history of the shogunate era), so I couldn’t wait to watch it as soon as it came out.
But for Fallout I honestly would’ve waited if they didn’t release it all at once. Maybe I’m a bit more patient than most, idk? Not sure if I’m in the minority or if most people wait like me. Most of my friends do at least.
Congrats FX. You made Tuesdays amazing. I barely even know what is going on and the show is amazing. This means that each subsequent watching of the show will hold new meaning. Also: those two alpha females are entirely captivating. Mass awards heading their way. And I’ve never loved an English accent more than the male lead. It’s nuts how little I know about this show while loving it so much. LOVED the intro. Been a long time since I’ve loved a show so much I’m watching the time and sad when <15 mins are left.
Who are the alpha women? Mariko and Ochiba?
I became a huge fan of Fuji when she pointed the guns at Omi.
I'm not a super smart guy, and I have a very loose understanding of Japanese culture and history but I didn't really have any issues following even the subtle nuances of the show. That Hiromatsu scene was especially devastating. That said, I intend to watch it repeatedly and I expect to develop new understandings of the story and characters.
I like to think that Fuji decided to stay with Blacktorn, instead of becoming a nun, after they both let go of their loved ones.
Note: The person on which Blacktorn in based, William Adams, stayed in Japan and built a good life for himself. He married a Japanese woman and had children.
I have this huge hole in my life now that the show is over...I'm thinking about watching it again since it's only a 10 hour investment, and the early episodes won't be so disorienting now!
I really hope these leads to more non-English historical dramas. There are so many interesting stories and great actors from around the world that could bring history to life.
Hell, I'd be pretty happy if NHK started partnering with foreign networks to bump up the budget to their yearly historical dramas and broadcast them internationally.
I love this show, but is it really beating out every single time someone streamed an episode of It's Always Sunny? or The Bear?
somehow i dont think this adds up. It was a top tier show by the way and the actors are 10/10, i just mean with all the years of streaming i can't imagine IASIP doesn't have more raw views.
When I was on college, I had an 8 hour shift at the hockey arena staring me down (literally nothing to do but move the nets for the Zamboni a couple times, which takes five minutes), I needed something to do so on my way out the door I stole my roommates copy of Shogun (he had borrowed it from some chick he banged at a college he recently visited that was 8 hours away).
From the first page it was just incredible. It became like an obsession. I read it every second I could spare. I read Tai-pan, I read Noble House, I read Gai-Jin and eventually I slowed down but I still read and loved Whirlwind and Rat King etc. I kept looking for books like that. I read James Michener and Edward Rutherford.
It sounds crazy to say that Shogun changed my life but it kinda did. I never met anyone who had ever heard of James Clavell or these books for 20 years after picking it up that day (my roommate never ended up reading it). It was this little place in my own mind where I had zero community but also a rich incredible history and casts of characters.
Every now and then I would bring it up if the subject broached it at work or on a date, but it never took. I didn’t hang with a real “historical fiction” crowd I guess. My wife is a big time reader and has buzzed through all of it as a matter of something to read. She marvels at the way I remember the little details of these books so many years later (I never reread them. I’ve never reread any books).
They were just so important to me. I can’t really explain why and, until my wife, no one ever asked me to try.
Now all the sudden it’s a show and everyone loves it and I should watch it but I’m kinda having a hard time getting started. It’s weird…
Unpopular opinion: didn't think it was so great. I stopped watching when the girl was coreograph fighting with like a dozen guys for the nth time. Pulls me out of immersion
What I couldn’t figure out form the show is that is Toranaga the good guy or bad? The only context we have is blackthorne is the good guy and since he sides with Toranaga, they must both be good?
And I felt like Ishidos character was weak. Like he was the villlian for the sake of being a villain. He never had any strong arguments why he wanted to do what he did. Apart from that, show was great.
I do wish they dedicated some more time to Fuji sama
I don’t know that there is a good guy or a bad guy. Toronaga is the MAIN guy tho, but I like that I don’t always know what he’s up to or whether he’s doing good things or bad.
That's actually a good question. Toranaga was based off the real historical shougun, Ieyasu Tokugawa. Historians would rather not paint people like him as "good" or "bad" - a simple binary labelling does disservice to the historical context of motives and actions. But it is unquestionable how massive of a figure he was in his time and how much he shaped the course of Japan's history.
I think the reason why Clavell created the character Toranaga instead of just using Tokugawa was that so you can come to your own judgement about whether or not his actions come across as good or bad to you, without directly ascribing that to the real historical person.
The Toranaga character - the real life Tokugawa - has both good & bad motives. He wants to save Japan from the 150 years of civil war that has nearly destroyed it & institute a nationwide peace. That's good.
The way he wants to do it - through deception & then later brutal repression - isn't good.
Considering the situation - how chaotic the country was & so beset by the corrupt mis-governance of greedy & proud petty chieftains - was it perhaps the only way to do it, however? Maybe.
And he also wants to maintain his family glory, which is egotistical & not good.
Love to see people watching and appreciating this amazing show. Everyone working on it did a great job, I hope they don't get snubbed at the Emmys as it usually happens.
Well deserved. I've watched it twice and recommended it to everyone I know. Easily the highest quality show I've seen since Better Call Saul.
The ending seems to be controversial though. I think a lot of people are disappointed by it and find it anti-climactic, though I personally loved it.
This is a remake. There was one made circa 1980 and it got crazy ratings. you can't get ratings like that today with all the channels and internet. I have seen people reference is that this show is what got Japanese restaurants to blow up.
I hope they resist the urge to make a season 2. there is no book to base it on. so it will likely be total trash.
*14 years ago Emily Yoshida moved to Hollywood with one goal to write and make a new Shogun show. https://youtu.be/kxcAHEEnamY?feature=shared
Must feel nice to pull off your one goal and it's critically acclaimed.
It's a fucking superb show, everything about it is brilliant, the sets and locations, the acting, the writing, the sound design and score, the graphics when they're used - just a compelling and thoroughly satisfying show. I didn't realise that it's based on a book and there was an older adaptation of it, but I love this one dearly, and I'm glad it's getting this acclaim.
Read the book. Read all the James Clavell Asian saga books. They’re amazing!
Thanks mate, I will pick them up
Also check out the 1980 miniseries. It aged well.
I did back in the day. Couldn’t get into it. I’ve heard it was pretty good.
It was. Really.
Unlike the 1984 Noble House series then, which ages rather badly.
> I didn't realise that it's based on a book The book is much better IMO. As good as the show was they did Blackthorne and Mariko dirty. Especially Blackthorne. He's way smarter/more capable in the books.
I loved every moment of the show until the last five minutes of the last episode. I only recently finished it so I’m not sure what the consensus is, but I can’t be the only one who felt like they rushed it? The scene itself was beautifully shot, but rather than Toranaga tell us how his master plan was going to unfold, I would very much have liked to see that unfold in real time, even if they made us wait until next season.
I remember when reading the book that this reveal was really cool. Toranaga revealing himself to be a master manipulator who'd pretty much already won was a powerful moment and I don't feel like seeing the whole campaign play out would land quite as powerfully as that "Oh shit he's a monster" moment.
Yeah I really enjoyed the ending. Typically in a story like Shogun Blackthorne would essentially play the role of a white savior but to turn it around and have Toranaga say that he was just a distraction was a great reveal. I think Blackthorne sort of taking a back seat during the mid point of the show sort of hurt the reveal slightly. Still a great ending none the less.
The book avoids that problem by having Blackthorne be the only PoV character. Even when he's essentially a side character, you still feel like he's important because he's the POV. As such, when the Toranaga twist is revealed it hits like a truck that Blackthorne is a nobody and Toranaga is playing a different game altogether. The show decided not to make Blackthorne the central POV character and that's why the twist suffers a little bit. It's still pretty good and ultimately, adding the POVs of the others did add quite a bit to the show. They could have maybe fabricated a plotline for Blackthorne to make him appear a bit more important so that it would work better when the rug is pulled in front of the audience that he doesn't matter.
Well, if that's the way it happened in the books, I suppose I can't fault the show for doing the same. However, in my mind the reveal needn't have been an entire campaign. I was thinking you'd have Toranaga get the letter from Lady Ochiba-no-kata, but either not tell us who it's from or not show his reaction to reading it. Then we see Yabushige's last moments. Basically everything happens just as it did, except he doesn't outline the events of the battle. Even his last line to Yabushige would make more sense this way - "Why tell a dead man the future?" The reveal on the battlefield wouldn't really need to take much more time than the flash forward did, but we'd see Toranaga consult with his generals and probably Blackthorne who would all still be worried about their impending doom. That's when Ishido gets the letter and we get the satisfaction of witnessing his embarrassment and the Regents turning on him. Of course, it's pretty arrogant of me to sit here and backseat drive James Clavell’s masterpiece as though I know better than him how the plot should unfold. I didn't know it was revealed to Yabushige in the book the same way as the series. And you make a good point about us getting hit with the full weight of his schemes all at once. He still needed to tell Yabushige about torching the Anjin's ship, so the punch wouldn't have landed the same way if it unfolded over two separate scenes.
> The scene itself was beautifully shot, but rather than Toranaga tell us how his master plan was going to unfold, I would very much have liked to see that unfold in real time, even if they made us wait until next season. The book doesn't show the battle either. It really strikes home how Toranaga was 3000 IQ playing chess 10 moves ahead while everyone else thought they were playing Checkers. Toranaga won before the first sword was drawn.
Hard disagree - that would completely go against most of the themes and subtlety the show did so well. The fact that they didn't show the whole thing is genius. It shows how masterful Toranaga is that it is inevitable, he can read the wind perfectly, which is why that final shot of him and then the end title card should give you goosebumps. Shogun isn't a title he will achieve, its something he already is. The whole country is under his control. Remember the question at the start of the series? "What kind of man rules in such a land?"
The ending is as in the book.
I think shogun was shot like 4 years ago. Not sure they’re doing another season.
If you've never read the novel or seen the original mini-series it's an incredible accomplishment. The sets, costumes, choreography and the brilliant acting, all are ground-breaking. All I can say to everyone admiring this production, read the novel. There is no comparison.
Dang. I really liked her from podcasts (Blank Check) and her writing in Vulture. Good on her for adapting something she loves and hitting it out of the park
Is that the same Emily Yoshida from grantland? That's awesome!
And I can’t even drop those pesky 10 vanity pounds from a few big holiday meals in 2001. Must be nice to fulfill your dreams.
And then filmed it right in my neighborhood! I recognized a lot of places in that show. There was a ship and a Japanese castle across from my local breweries for a while there.
Well deserved and I hope we see more beautifully crafted media like this
I hope they put the same amount of effort into their upcoming Alien series.
Wow I am so psyched for this now. I was not aware he was working on that, but I've really appreciated Legion and Shogun so I feel optimistic. Something to look forward to!
Legion was ahead of its time
Legion would be insane in any time, tbh. It's amazing that we managed to get three seasons out of that show.
The first season was some of my favorite tv. Ever.
Noah Hawley is the PERFECT person to be at the helm of an Alien series.
The movie Alien: Romulus directed by Fede Alvarez is coming up this summer as well. Judging by the teaser and promotional pics it looks like they took a lot of inspiration from the game Alien: Isolation, which makes me think it's going to be fantastic.
God, succesfully translating the atmosphere of that game to the screen would be amazing, the biggest negative I've seen come up is that people can't complete it because it sucks you in so much and gets you to a point where you're too scared to continue playing. Really a masterpiece of a game for how connected you feel to it.
Isolation is not only the best Alien game I've ever played, it's one of the best games I've ever played, period. The AI is nearly flawless
So there’s going to be a series AND the new movie?
Yes, the series is being filmed right now afaik.
Is there any source material from that Alien thing? Or is it an original concept?
It's an original concept from Noah Hawley afaik.
Yeah, then I’m going to hold my breath for now then. I think the source material for “Shogun” is a huge reason why the show was so good.
I began Shogun expecting a great show. I finished Shogun realizing that I participated in art.
You should absolutely read the book. And then also watch most things from Akira Kurosawa.
900 pages of page turning can’t put it down excitement. I tried getting through king rat and it wasn’t the same. I need a reread.
There were crucial clues in the original trailer that let me know it'd be fantastic (things that only someone who seriously read the book would understand). So I was delighted when it was even better than I hoped.
What were some of the clues, just out of curiosity?
(1) >!The hawk scene in the book is crucial for an early clue about how Toranaga manipulates or uses other people (with great patience).!< (2) >!Mariko with the arrows in the ground (where she starts her final performance for Toranaga - she's literally the lynchpin for him to win the war, before it ever starts).!< (3) >!And the "3 hearts" dialogue (for obvious reasons).!< I nearly died when I saw all three in the first trailer and just *knew* that this would be a very serious effort.
They got everything right tbh. So many shows look cheap these days but the Shogun sets and costumes were great
From reading the showrunners and writers - it was a many years long journey in the making so be prepared to wait for quality like this to show up again.
More historical shows similar to this based in other countries would be cool. I kinda want to see a show set in Spanish-era Philippines
Great show i just cant stand the lensing
Im actually surprised at this. Obviously the show is phenomenal, I just wouldn't have thought it had this much audience appeal considering it is mostly a reflective character piece and most of it is in japanese.
I feel like having a direct insert for the “foreigner” to anchor to makes it more broadly appealing than if it were strictly about the Japanese, but I admit this is a bit subjective and I love Japan’s history so I’m a little bias.
I was telling my friends that the original shogun show was interesting because they didn’t have subtitles until the Anjin starts learning Japanese. In the early episodes the viewers are as lost and confused as the character about what was happening around him. It was a pretty interesting dynamic. Like you think about that first episode: they land in Japan and are immediately imprisoned, punished, and one of them is executed. Then he gets taken to Osaka Castle, is presented to Toranaga. He gets interpreted to by a hated enemy who he doesn’t trust to interpret for him, then this other lord shows up and seems to confront the guy you thought was the boss and this crazy stand off that you cannot understand occurs. You don’t know who Toranaga is, who Ishida is, or what just happened between them. Then Blackthorne gets taken to prison for some reason.
I watched a torrented copy of one of the Planet of the Apes movies with my Dad. We only realized after about an hour into the movie that there were supposed to be subtitles on the apes when they're "talking" (grunting and making ape noises), but the torrented file didn't include these. We initially thought it was an artistic decision and you could kinda tell what was going on because the main ape dude speaks English. They also eventually find a little human girl so I kinda thought that the audience was supposed to be seeing the apes from her point-of-view or something. But no, we eventually realized something was off when there was entire conversation scenes that didn't really make any sense without subtitles. [It was this movie I'm fairly certain](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwSB6e_0_M8&ab_channel=HsjsJsjsj). It was probably around this point where we realized something was wrong (imagine watching this scene without subtitles).
I had the same experience with the first of this series. It was in the scenes where the smart chimp was in a pen with an orangutan who could also communicate non verbally; about 2/3s into the movie. After a minute or so of no subtitles in a long conversation I realized omitting subtitles was not the directors choice but an inconvenience of the shady site I was watching the movie on.
Omg the same thing happened to me. The people I were watching it with hadn’t seen the movie before and I felt so bad. I almost wish we got a Planet of the Apes with an intentional lack of subtitles. Probably very difficult to do
Meanwhile the *Star Wars Holiday Special* correctly does NOT have subtitles for the extended Wookie slice of life scenes.
Nerdwriter1 on YouTube made an interesting video talking about this exact thing, only around 8 min https://youtu.be/QGh1JRJXehg
Agreed. Often the 'traveler in a foreign land' trope can be tiresome, but in this case, the social rules and dynamics of feudal Japan are so opaque to most viewers, that having a proxy undergoing a similar learning curve as they are is a great way to introduce the viewer to the dynamics.
Marco Polo was fantastic in having Marco dip out the split second the audience caught onto everything with the court dynamics.
Wasn't he also based on a real foreigner in Tokugawa's court?
Not only that, but they use the japanese vs. english subtitles as a plot point almost. You get a ton of character development just watching how Mariko does or does not translate things literally.
Also having a "break" from Japanese once in a while really helps, I've found.
The foreigner is very much needed, most of the heart and funny parts came from Blackthorne, the show would be too pragmatic without him.
I think word of mouth probably helped a lot. I told basically everyone I know to watch it beside it's so well done.
It must. As a personal example, my wife had no interest in watching this when the first episode was airing, but she saw the positive reviews it was getting and the attention from people online, and she was all about it within a few weeks. The great reactions it has gotten and positive word of mouth has definitely helped it a lot in the long run I'm sure.
Anecdotal: Only watched it cause several people referred to is as Game of thrones set in Feudal times. Wasn't that, but still a beautiful experience none the less.
It was similar to season 1 GoT. Probably the easiest comparison for pitching it to friends. And they don’t have to worry about it imploding on later seasons!
There’s still the political intrigue and backstabbing that GoT had. It’s not a bad comparison.
I had heard that but, yeah, I agree. Maybe the production values
Yeah it being called Japanese Game of Thrones by everybody was as good of marketing as you can get.
I don't know how much of the success is due to non-American markets, but in the rest of the world, people under 50 are used to watch subtitled shows (especially American ones obviously) so the fact that it is in Japanese wouldn't be an issue.
My kids, nieces, and nephews all watch subtitled shows. They leave the subtitles on for everything, even American shows. But they’re also watching Korean shows and tons of anime.
[удалено]
Gotta watch native language stuff with subtitles on anyways because all the stuff now is made with the assumption that I have a 360 degree sound bar it feels like.
Eh, I usually have to turn the subs off for native language stuff (assuming no heavy accents). I find them too distracting. Also encounter timing issues entirely too frequently.
Definitely, if the sound is mixed well and people talk in a manner that is understandable, no subtitles is the way to go. If I’m watching something by myself I’d rather put on headphones than turn on subtitles. I’ve grown up with subtitles as a non-native English speaker in a country that imports lots of British and American content, so I make no fuss about them. Yet, not having them on is what I ideally prefer.
I'm fluent in English and I've been English shows/movies with subtitles for years, because the sound mixing makes things hard to hear/understand. It's a HUGE difference to actually make out what the actors are hearing. Before subtitles, it would be putting up volume in talking scenes, then getting my ears blown off during an action part.
Surpassing Fargo, the Bear, Americans, and the American Horror Story so quickly is extremely surprising to me.
I say this as somebody who adores The Americans: nobody watched it
Sad but true. I've tried to recommend it to people so many times and they've never even heard of it. I think the generic-sounding title didn't do it a lot of favors either.
The only reason I heard about it to watch was because it ended up on some list of 'Amazing shows no one is watching.' Found the Leftovers from that list as well which was amazing.
Of the shows you listed, only The Bear started as a streaming title. The Americans & AHS were both on broadcast TV when streaming wasn't that big yet. Shogun started as during the streaming era, and got heavily promoted by FX.
It's "tracking" as the most watched. Meaning it hasn't surpassed total views for every other FX series yet.
I mean it had so many great reviews for the first episode that I saw quite a few posts about it on twitter. I had to check it out after that.
People want to watch quality shows, not just America's got talent, and 28 seasons of greys anatomy.
What's funny is how incorrect this statement is for the general public.
A part of it comes from appeal to older people who saw the original mini series. Back then there was much fewer things to watch. So ratings were very huge on anything that was good and had some crossover appeal. A ton of people watched it and it was good, so they had fun memories of it. And wanted to revisit that.
They do have an English dub version up as well. It's right next to the episode tap at the top of the Hulu show page menu.
people didnt care about subs with anime or kdrama
The original shogun show was huge in America and popularized samurai and ninja’s in the west. It’s also based on books written by a an American and a fictional retelling of an actual historical event.
I remember that weird period in the 80s when ninjas were the big thing. I mean there was a tv show with Lee Van Cleef as a ninja master. It was an amazing time. I am ready for a ninjaissance
Check out House of Ninjas on Netflix
James Clavell is not American, he’s British, though born in Australia. But besides that you are 100% correct.
Wasn’t he also a ww2 vet?
Yes, and was a Japanese POW. It’s actually amazing how he was able to come away with such a love for the culture considering the treatment he probably received.
He wrote a book based on his time at a POW camp called King Rat. It’s a bit of a tough read because of how real his depiction is, but if you can get past that it’s an incredible book.
He was a naturalized American.
he naturalized as an american citizen in 1963. he released the book in 1975 so he was an american when it was published. source: https://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/13/magazine/making-of-a-literary-shogun.html > Though Clavell has yet to rule a nation or become a samurai, he does like to describe himself as ''half-Irish, half-arrogant'' (his mother was Irish; he is English by birth and an American citizen since 1963)
My 72 year old dad loved the original series and that had him excited.
agreed. So many of my friends refuse to watch movies or shows i recommend in different languages. I think it being dubbed "Japanese Game of Thrones" by many helped. Cant get any better marketing than that.
Dude 2 of my favorite books are now massive pop culture phenomena and it’s a mind fuck
This is what you get when a story has a definite beginning and end. It goes out on top and is beloved, no time to churn out more and slowly bloat and get turned into a bad show. This is an example of quality and creativity joined in one producing financial success. To many media projects think only of financial success to the detriment of the other factors.
Give me a tai-pain mini series! Give it to me you cowards!
Then Noble House
I’ve said it elsewhere on this thread, but could Gai Jin be the best book to make a tv series about? I think we all kinda agree it’s the worst book but it might have an angle for tv.
>tai-pain I’m on a boat!
Mariko-sama… please tell Lord Toranaga I’d like to rejoin my men and get on my ship so I can sail away from this god forsaken land.
I would be shocked if this movie didn't win a bunch of Emmy's next year. A fantastic show all-around.
It's literally winning every Emmy.
Anna Sawai better win one or i’ll commit Sudoku on stage. Award shows are horseshit anyway so I don’t expect it to win much.
You'll solve a number puzzle in front of a crowd?
[удалено]
0-3-5-0-3-6-5
I’ll do that first, get frustrated and then commit seppuku
You have caused major shame on our clan by using the number 9 twice in a row. Slit your belly by sunset.
They totally gonna give it to Jodie foster even tho her character sucked and it was some of the least impressive acting of foster’s entire career. Completely wasted her talent yet somehow she’s looked at as the frontrunner over Sawai and Juno temple which is insanity.
Awards are bullshit. Still salty about Better Call Saul getting completely snubbed
Rhea Seehorn not winning anything is complete and utter horseshit.
I’m in love with her.
Paddy Comsidine too.
He was so snubbed man, I honestly thought his performance in ep8 was the best single episode performance in the GoT franchise and man didn’t even get a sniff from awards shows
It’s one of my fav shows but it’s prob only winning 1 tbh (best limited series). It’s not considered the favorite by experts in any other category
Outstanding Daytime Culinary Program?
I wonder what Japanese people think of this show.
Most of them loved it apparently. The initial reviews from Japan all praised how respectful the show was of their culture. Hiroyuki Sanada ensured that. And he also brought in people to help the show look as historically accurate as possible.
It *definitely* helped that it was a weekly release. I know people love all season drops, but imo it can suffer with that route. I still wish the fallout show was a weekly release (even though that did get crazy good views too) edit: “suffer” is in relative terms, by the way. Not insinuating it would have crashed and burned if it was released all at once.
I agree. Not only does it make you think and anticipate the next episode everyone else is also on the same page if you wanted to discuss what happened. I find it weird how Amazon dropped Fallout all at once yet *Reacher* was the show they chose for weekly
I for one always wait for every episode to come out before I start watching a show anyways. Shogun was the only exception ever since GoT as the marketing got me super hyped even for episode 1 (specifically the insanely well made trailer that showed a quick background history of the shogunate era), so I couldn’t wait to watch it as soon as it came out. But for Fallout I honestly would’ve waited if they didn’t release it all at once. Maybe I’m a bit more patient than most, idk? Not sure if I’m in the minority or if most people wait like me. Most of my friends do at least.
Shogun in Space next please. 🙏
the three kubodi problem
I'd watch it! But Hiroyuki Sanada should play the Shogun.
Four Dark Matter
That wouldn't work! Mariko could just leave the castle in the third dimension.
Can't we have just one thing that nobody tries to shoehorn sci-fi/fantasy into?
No.
Congrats FX. You made Tuesdays amazing. I barely even know what is going on and the show is amazing. This means that each subsequent watching of the show will hold new meaning. Also: those two alpha females are entirely captivating. Mass awards heading their way. And I’ve never loved an English accent more than the male lead. It’s nuts how little I know about this show while loving it so much. LOVED the intro. Been a long time since I’ve loved a show so much I’m watching the time and sad when <15 mins are left.
Who are the alpha women? Mariko and Ochiba? I became a huge fan of Fuji when she pointed the guns at Omi. I'm not a super smart guy, and I have a very loose understanding of Japanese culture and history but I didn't really have any issues following even the subtle nuances of the show. That Hiromatsu scene was especially devastating. That said, I intend to watch it repeatedly and I expect to develop new understandings of the story and characters.
I like to think that Fuji decided to stay with Blacktorn, instead of becoming a nun, after they both let go of their loved ones. Note: The person on which Blacktorn in based, William Adams, stayed in Japan and built a good life for himself. He married a Japanese woman and had children.
In the book >!Toranaga let's her commit seppuku!<
>I’m not a super smart guy I don’t believe you.
For real, best 10 weeks of TV for me in a long time. It has been a very long time since I looked forward to a day of television.
I have this huge hole in my life now that the show is over...I'm thinking about watching it again since it's only a 10 hour investment, and the early episodes won't be so disorienting now!
Tai-Pan next please!!
As a kid I was a huge clavell fan. I've read them all multiple times and have to say tai pan is my favorite.
I agree with you! Gai Jin is the worst Clavell book but might make the coolest mini series if they decide to run it back and want to do Japan again.
It was solid. I think whirlwind was the worst.
I just wish they did more episodes. A lot of the amazing shit happened before and after the show.
Best show of 2024 so far
I really hope these leads to more non-English historical dramas. There are so many interesting stories and great actors from around the world that could bring history to life. Hell, I'd be pretty happy if NHK started partnering with foreign networks to bump up the budget to their yearly historical dramas and broadcast them internationally.
I love this show, but is it really beating out every single time someone streamed an episode of It's Always Sunny? or The Bear? somehow i dont think this adds up. It was a top tier show by the way and the actors are 10/10, i just mean with all the years of streaming i can't imagine IASIP doesn't have more raw views.
Needs a 4K Bluray release!
**HAI!**
And it wasn’t even that good!
Amazing what happens when you treat the source material and time period with respect, care, and passion.
Amazing show, I’m going to read the book now.
When I was on college, I had an 8 hour shift at the hockey arena staring me down (literally nothing to do but move the nets for the Zamboni a couple times, which takes five minutes), I needed something to do so on my way out the door I stole my roommates copy of Shogun (he had borrowed it from some chick he banged at a college he recently visited that was 8 hours away). From the first page it was just incredible. It became like an obsession. I read it every second I could spare. I read Tai-pan, I read Noble House, I read Gai-Jin and eventually I slowed down but I still read and loved Whirlwind and Rat King etc. I kept looking for books like that. I read James Michener and Edward Rutherford. It sounds crazy to say that Shogun changed my life but it kinda did. I never met anyone who had ever heard of James Clavell or these books for 20 years after picking it up that day (my roommate never ended up reading it). It was this little place in my own mind where I had zero community but also a rich incredible history and casts of characters. Every now and then I would bring it up if the subject broached it at work or on a date, but it never took. I didn’t hang with a real “historical fiction” crowd I guess. My wife is a big time reader and has buzzed through all of it as a matter of something to read. She marvels at the way I remember the little details of these books so many years later (I never reread them. I’ve never reread any books). They were just so important to me. I can’t really explain why and, until my wife, no one ever asked me to try. Now all the sudden it’s a show and everyone loves it and I should watch it but I’m kinda having a hard time getting started. It’s weird…
As a book reader, watch it. The attention to detail of this show is next level.
I’m sure I will.
Well done and it certainly deserves it. The show wasn't my cup of tea, but I'm glad it was successful.
Holy snaps, bigger than The Bear?
100% bigger and better. It (Shogun) goes all out for 10 episodes though and finishes up and closes shop.
I love the rainy cloudy climate of this series, it give me confort Another good show with similar climate/weather?
It was filmed in British Columbia Canada, so lots of films.
Surprisingly good show. I caught myself binging it a few weeks ago…they did a great job on it imho.
Well deserved. The show is fantastic, I hope they adapt more Clavell books.
Awesome! Loved the show. FX has put out a lot of great shows. Now watching The Veil.
***Hguhhh?!***
It was great. Loved it. Will watch more if they let me!
Unpopular opinion: didn't think it was so great. I stopped watching when the girl was coreograph fighting with like a dozen guys for the nth time. Pulls me out of immersion
HIGHLY Suggest anyone with FX access also watch The Americans, right up there with Shogun as some of the best TV writing I’ve ever seen
Last episode sucked. Terrible ending
It was disappointing indeed.
Bigger than Fargo or Its Always Sunny? It's excellent but that's surprising.
Different eras of TV
It is so excellent!
it's an outstanding show well deserved
Simply because it was 🔥
Bring on the sequels and spinoffs
It was good.
Make great show + put an unbearable amount of commercials in show + offer streaming option with no commercials = high streaming numbers
The power of word of mouth.
It was wonderfully done, also there isn’t much else out yet that is any good. We are still in recovery from the writers strikes…
What I couldn’t figure out form the show is that is Toranaga the good guy or bad? The only context we have is blackthorne is the good guy and since he sides with Toranaga, they must both be good? And I felt like Ishidos character was weak. Like he was the villlian for the sake of being a villain. He never had any strong arguments why he wanted to do what he did. Apart from that, show was great. I do wish they dedicated some more time to Fuji sama
I don’t know that there is a good guy or a bad guy. Toronaga is the MAIN guy tho, but I like that I don’t always know what he’s up to or whether he’s doing good things or bad.
That's actually a good question. Toranaga was based off the real historical shougun, Ieyasu Tokugawa. Historians would rather not paint people like him as "good" or "bad" - a simple binary labelling does disservice to the historical context of motives and actions. But it is unquestionable how massive of a figure he was in his time and how much he shaped the course of Japan's history. I think the reason why Clavell created the character Toranaga instead of just using Tokugawa was that so you can come to your own judgement about whether or not his actions come across as good or bad to you, without directly ascribing that to the real historical person.
The Toranaga character - the real life Tokugawa - has both good & bad motives. He wants to save Japan from the 150 years of civil war that has nearly destroyed it & institute a nationwide peace. That's good. The way he wants to do it - through deception & then later brutal repression - isn't good. Considering the situation - how chaotic the country was & so beset by the corrupt mis-governance of greedy & proud petty chieftains - was it perhaps the only way to do it, however? Maybe. And he also wants to maintain his family glory, which is egotistical & not good.
ive enjoyed it
Love to see people watching and appreciating this amazing show. Everyone working on it did a great job, I hope they don't get snubbed at the Emmys as it usually happens.
Well deserved. I've watched it twice and recommended it to everyone I know. Easily the highest quality show I've seen since Better Call Saul. The ending seems to be controversial though. I think a lot of people are disappointed by it and find it anti-climactic, though I personally loved it.
Meh
Deservedly so.
This is a remake. There was one made circa 1980 and it got crazy ratings. you can't get ratings like that today with all the channels and internet. I have seen people reference is that this show is what got Japanese restaurants to blow up. I hope they resist the urge to make a season 2. there is no book to base it on. so it will likely be total trash.
Btw - The behind the scenes shorts on Hulu are worthwhile if you have not seen them yet.