Soldier mains when they brainlessly and predictably shoot reflectable projectiles at the class that can reflect projectiles and they end up dying to a reflected projectile:
That’s my defense mechanism whenever someone tries to ruin a kazotsky kick party in 2fort. I also saw a guy annihilate someone on a Hightower match by waiting outside the spawn door
I like to stare back at pyros that like to wait to air blast, we stare at each other in a retarded silence. Then I randomly flick my weapon as if I was in recoil from firing my launcher, juking them into air blasting so I can fire, and if that don't work I just switch to my shotgun
I've played more than enough soldier to know the exact firing interval between rockets. Could I tell you it in milliseconds? No. But put me in front of a soldier and I'm hitting M2 in time with his rockets.
Then he screams how I'm hacking and have autoreflect and I'm like...no, dude. You're just utterly braindead and hold down M1.
Seriously, even if you are dead set on murdering the pyro its better to leave and approach from a different angle. So long as you’ve got enough health for a jump you should nearly always have the advantage as a gunboat soldier.
And if you don’t have the health for a jump: get the fuck out of there ASAP
Specially because Pyro is like
The One class that can't do follow you or harass you in any way if you're outside their range
Arguably Heavy as well but he's Heavy
Tbh it's not that hard to kill a pyro as a soldier, you just have to be smart with how you're using your rockets, positioning and being patient
Of course it's hard if the pyro is very skilled but at this point basically any class can die to him as easily
>soldier
>smart
There's your first problem, most soldier mains will bum rush a pyro thinking they can get a cheap and easy kill, not realizing that pyro is very good at countering an ambush. It's much better to approach from a different angle or use a method that doesn't involve rocket spam, since the pyro can just easily counter it.
I've died more times to someone behind me with a shotgun than in front of me with rockets
Your image is framing it as "why people think sniper and wrangler ok but airblast overpowered!?!?!"
If you want a real answer for the question in the title, it's because airblast's hitbox being just a massive cube around the player that can even hit BEHIND them is kinda bullshit, especially when said hitbox is connected to a tool which takes away the opponent's ability to play the game
Both Sniper and the Wrangler require a relatively decent amount of aim. The old (32bit) airblast did not. Even now, it's still pretty forgiving in terms of aim. The 64 bit update just fixed a longstanding issue where Pyros could hit players who were off-screen or behind them.
That's it. That's the whole reason behind the complaints with the old hitbox. It has nothing to do with range, and it's all to do with ease of use. Hitting someone with an airblast used to be the easiest thing in the game, and now it's somewhat more reasonable.
You now have to hit people who are on your screen. This is how it should have always been from the beginning. Asking for more is frankly ridiculous.
I appreciate your detailed answer, thank you!
This kind of answer is the one I was looking for to begin with, and I think I regret starting this particular conversation with this particular image. It seems like a lot of people assume I was asking in bad faith, or with a tone of bitterness because I used a jokey exaggerated straw man. I'm new to the subreddit so I don't really know how the tone of discussions here usually go.
I mean in the sense that you have to put your crosshair near an enemy that is on your screen. Even if there's a form of aim assistance, it's not like you can spin around in a circle and still hit every shot
Well, Pyro airblast does require some smart timings and aiming reflects well makes you much more dangerous. But yes even a bad Pyro can be annoying, which isn't as much the case for engi and not at all for sniper. In the end, all 3 mechanics are in need of change but we also all know we won't get that :)
Ok but "the area of influence is smaller than two of the most-complained-about things *in the game* (due to their area of influence)" is not the ironclad defense you may think it is.
Its mostly just crybabies who are mad that the short range class puts you at a disadvantage in close range
Honestly, just stop paying attention to the "airblast op" people, the game becomes much more enjoyable when you stop caring about other players opinions tbh
Do you mean the size if the airblast hitbox? Its stupidly big, simple as. Make it a cone with the origin somewhere on the pyro's hitbox and with the base area towards where the pyro was aiming.
Its a fair solution. Pyro does not need to airblast a rocket 3 meters and 90 degrees to the left of them. As long as pyro can airblast anything coming towards them then its good
i think the problem is that both the knockback and the reflecting are handled by the same hitbox. it's fine and fair for reflecting projectiles, but a bit too generous for pushing people away. i think it would be better to split those responsibilities into 2 hitboxes with their own sizes and shapes.
The post isn't about the meme, it's about the title of the post. The meme is only tangentially related, and I picked it because people tend to interact more with posts that have a video/image attached to it.
I wasn't asking "why do people only ever complain about Pyro", I was asking "when people complain about Pyro, why is it that they focus on the size of the airblast so much?"
It's not a spacing issue, it's a class match up issue. Airblast completely shuts off demo knight and soldier and it's like
Not fun?
Some maps also have forced paths
People think airblast is retarded because it actively removes any capability of air strafe, a core mechanic in favor of a pseudo stun lock (mega gay).
it not working properly before 64 bit, and not requiring people to even be on screen was just doubly shit.
Nobody good at the game cares about projectile reflects. it's a non factor.
Despite this, nobody good at the game really cares, because even engi can out dps flamethrowers lol. Pyro's only actual purpose is being annoying for ubers, being a hard counter for the shittiest class in the game, and occasionally getting meme kills with reflects.
Not really. They buffed it in Jungle Inferno. It used to last 0.5 seconds, but now lasts infinitely until the victim lands.
The only "nerf" to the stun is that, instead of a full removal of air strafing, you lose 75% of your control. Which is about the same as a revved up Heavy. In other words, you're still not strafing, and the stun lasts for even longer than before. It's a buff.
How is it zero velocity? Is velocity only counted when you move by yourself?
I know velocity and speed are different in terms of real physics but I’m still confused
he meant to say it resets your velocity, since you could be moving at incredible hihg speed and lose it all even if the airblast is in the direction youre moving (as if to boost you)
Not quite. It roughly (i don't quite fully understand the mechanic) add/subtracts the airblast's velocity and then flips the direction of that velocity depending on the angles. Somebody moving VERY quickly (e.g. sticky jumper caber demo) will barely notice the +/- of the airblast and keep moving very quickly, just in a flipped direction.
It's why somebody walking at a pyro getting directly airblasted just gets bounced in place (the subtract brings them close to 0 speed, and there's nothing left to flip), but somebody walking away gets absolutely yeeted.
It's definitely not a hard velocity reset, if a mechanic isn't made of spaghetti it's not a valve mechanic.
You also get other weird stuff like manntreads soldier's resisting the +/-, but not the velocity flip (down speed becomes up speed). So you can actually keep them forever airborne like 3 metres in the air with the right speeds in play.
Sniper shouldn't exist, straight-up.
The Wrangler would be okay without the shield, or if the shield only applied when it was in its inactive period (especially if it took at least a second to reactivate and couldn't be repaired in that state at all).
Pyro's airblast is mostly fine, but it shouldn't hit behind him, that's just silly. It also probably shouldn't keep Demoknight's charge completely disabled for a couple seconds after you're airblasted, since that's counterintuitive and senseless, and it also removes potential counterplay Demoknights have (where they could bait an airblast and then charge in immediately after the Pyro uses it). I don't want airblast to be nerfed in huge ways, I just want it to be made a little more logical and consistent.
Pyro's airblast hitbox is legitimately too big, but that's about the only problem I have with it. I think if you tone down the hitbox, it's a fine ability. I have seen some people think that Pyro shouldn't have airblast at all, and I don't think those people are really worth listening to. Airblast is annoying at times, but something being annoying doesn't mean it necessarily needs to be nerfed. I'm annoyed by Vaccinator Medics, but I don't think that weapon needs to be nerfed. (Though I do think it ought to be banned in competitive play)
It's a case of "mad cuz bad". It explains most complaints. I had a nub in one of my games complain about soldier today. You can pretty much just chalk it up to this.
I personally dislike airblast because I find it too spammable for how valuable it is, this is also why I think that the dragon's fury is one of the best designed weapons in the game.
I think the main complaint about airblast is its ability to shut down ubers? It's not like spamming airblasts achieve much of anything unlike rockets and snipers not can pyros airblasts more than 4 times each tank.
I think a lot of the issues with discussions of balance is that the conversations usually have a large overlap with enjoyment and if something is literally broken. Something can be balanced, but not fun to play against; something can be unbalanced, but also fun. And if something is broken its hard to argue how it should be balanced until its fixed to function the way its intended.
For example, the argument of something being balanced but unfun could be sniper. As class he is supposed to excel at long range against single targets, but struggles against groups in his face. On paper he's a balanced class, but many people think it isnt fun to die to a sniper nor is it fun to learn to play sniper. An example of something being fun but unbalanced is soldier. Most people either main soldier or have him in their back pocket as he is really easy to play even if you haven't rocket jumped a day in your life. However, almost no one complains about soldier because he's a fun class to both play and fight. As for something being just broken is spy. And I mean literally broken, we all know that disguises can sometimes be missing parts/cosmetics, and melee hit registration is usually pretty bad for every class. As a result it's hard to talk about balance for spy until fundamental things about him are fixed. I don't know anything about pyro's airblast hit box. Is the way it currently works supposed to be that way? Was it supposed to be fixed but it was never gotten around to? Maybe the current complaints about airblast would dissappear if its something that is simply broken but needs to be fixed. But even if broken good, broken bad, or perfectly balanced in every way, it's still perfectly fine to not like something in the game if you don't think it's fun.
I think the argument is that it was broken fun.
Hit box behind the pyro is a pretty niche case trust only then best of the best can pull off deliberately.
The wide square hit box, however, could be used by even moderately skilled pyros to start combo attacks. They’re now not impossible, but a *lot* more difficult to perform.
Some people argue that it’s not fun to play against, but I’d point out that the counterplay to combo pyro is pretty straightforward - kill him before he closes in.
The other thing is that pyro’s already a relatively weak class, and this fix nerfs the main thing he has going for him - the airblast.
I think the meme’s pointing out that while the updater could have chosen to rebalance something universally hated like sniper, or overpowered like the wrangler, instead he chose to nerfed the second-weakest class in the game.
As someone that used to main a bunch of classes when I still played the game a good pyro is a nightmare. Base game flames are actually impossible to see through which makes hitting him up close a pain in the ass, even if you are playing a class that can handle him up close they have the magical M2 button that locks your mid air mobility which severely dicks over scout, demo, and soldier while also having a mild effect on another pyro (Cause flare jumping and jetpack).
He's not busted by any means but he's not weak either. Playing on good pyro maps is hellish because they win 7/10 battles there.
All in all Pyro is an extremely annoying class just because of how much utility he has, people only think he's complete shit because of the low skilled randoms that play him.
In this example, you're comparing two things that barely move (wrangled sentry and Sniper), to a class that can be highly mobile. The pyros airblast is op because of how big it is (it's been reverted to the old size for projectiles). He's (used to be) able to airblast projectiles out of his fov, and players literally cannot move themselves when airblasted. You effectively get applied a -100% movement speed debuff until you hit the ground, seems a bit unfair considering how a majority of classes that airshot have to deal with the enemy moving on their own.
Its because of the shape allowing some ridiculous jank at close range. This isn't really fixable though cuz other shapes have just as many issues if not more. I don't really think its an unfair shape or size though, total cope.
Because the hitbox is so big it makes airblasting a trivial task, and often you can airblast projectiles outside your fov (also known as projectiles you didn't react to in time)
>implying people don’t complain about sniper or the wrangler
Also it’s because air blast was bigger than it should be from a logical standpoint, it doesn’t make any fuckin sense.
The argument of the meme is essentially the same as "I would rather have 10 kg of dirt than 1 kg of gold because 10 is greater than 1". You're comparing areas that mean completely different things.
When a projectile class is killed by pyro with airblast, the brain is denied the dopamine it was expecting. The denial often causes the response of anger/rage. People then associate their anger/rage with the airblast and pyro at large.
I suck st reflects, I need advice
Anyway, only the better pyroes can reflect. When I get killed by one, I make sure to always stare the pyro dead in the eyes and run... AWAY. Damn you, Gunboats!
Hell, I have only ever successfully reflected 2 and that was dopamine.wav.
My opinion about why people find air blast annoying is the same reason people find the short circuit annoying. The exchange can often feel like a skill imbalance and feel unfair when all the work and skill that goes into hitting a shot can be deleted by clicking a button.
Yes, good airblast is absolutely a skill, no doubt. And yeah— it’s definitely a “git gud” situation for us demo and soldier mains. A skilled demo/solly player will be fine playing against an airblasting pyro. But again, I think it’s the skill exchange that can just *feel* unfair/unbalanced alongside the fact that any ability that cancels a player’s shot/move in a multiplayer game has a high potential to feel frustrating on the receiving end.
I just need to know how i keep seeing pyros wm2 so quickly. When I hit m2 i cant do a 2nd airblast quickly like these other pyros do. I don't get how they manage to reload scorch shots so rapidly.
It's never airblast for me, always the flare spam from pyros everywhere. Or even sometimes just using it a lot and being annoyingly effective at killing me.
Iv'e also never noticed how big the hitbox for that actually is lol and I play soldier a lot when beneficial
Ehhhh I guess, but comparing Pyro to the best class in the game is not the way to express your point, and comparing them to the wrangler is just comparing apples and oranges
Both pyro and sniper are fine and if you think otherwise you suck and 99% of the time youve started playing tf2 during like jungle inferno (2017) and I do not respect your opinion
Because it's simply not fun that Pyro could airblast you without even actually having to look at you. Luckily, they changed it, so it's no longer a problem. Also, nice cherry picking, since nearly everyone complains about Sniper and the Wrangler.
Post of actual genuine attempt at discussion in r/tf2,
Op I'm very disappointed that you've probably taken the collective of the worst opinions founded on a lack of understanding of anything of merit as gospel.
personally, i don't care much about the size, i just hate that it's a stun mechanic.
of course, this is mainly in the context of playing demoknight, because i genuinely think it isn't ok for the only way to survive meeting a pyro as demoknight is to run away.
airblast alone is why i say that demoknight is the worst somewhat serious option in the entire game.
People don't realize projectiles move faster than most soldiers while they are rocket jumping and airblast has no lag compensation so higher ping players can't even efficiently use the damn thing
The only real complain I see is the fact it doesn't rotate with Pyro and that is really bad, but at least we got the cone back recently
Airblast is Pyro's only good tool. It's also (referring to the pseudo-stunlock) annoying as fuck and everyone hates playing against it. You have to understand we as Pyro mains are only defending it because if Valve ever nerfs it, it will be four years before we see compensation buffs.
I haven't had a legit one of these discussions since the x64 update, since it fixed the airblast's shape.
Honestly I think with that change, Pyro's in the most balanced spot it's ever been in right now.
it's just that most soldier mains use the gunboats instead of a gun, so either you run at a pyro with your melee (bad idea) or shoot rockets at him (even worse idea) or rocketjump over him and shoot pyro (not shit idea, but not the best). still, shotguns exist
> is way to many soldier
Did you mean to say "too many"?
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It’s not just that, I see why valve would buff a class like pyro since he gets shut down easily by any class that has any sort of medium or long range. The shitty thing is the debuff applied in air, completely shutting down and horizontal air movement, for a game about fairness it would suck if some class with a danger zone of a quarter of a KOTH map could juggle you and you can do about jackshit with it. I definitely think the casual setting also applies with many casual players obviously playing casual there’s always a select amount of people with thousands of hours; I’m sure most of the complaints come from casual matches I haven’t heard of a single pyro complaint in comp mostly because comp matches are filled with hitscan or projectile which are precisely timed projectiles at that.
I’m mostly in agreement for a nerf to air blast but something akin to a change rather than a nerf, making the hitbox smaller would only anger players and confuse newer players. But I’d really appreciate it if they removed the movement debuff whilst airbasted, it adds nothing to the fairness and I think most people get caught off being juggled off the map or in the air about to get hit by their own projectile with no way to dodge.
Also if I put my two cents in about pyro, I don’t like the class simply because of the complex weapons with little synergy and community made weapons attempting to bring synergy but making weapons objectively better than stock. Many new players gravitate to maining pyro since it’s a safety assured class, sure heavy might have a lower skill ceiling as pyro but as pyro you get a range of safe options such as being immune to afterburn, ability to blind sight lines and lob projectiles back. I don’t think pyro should be changed because he’s practically a part of the meta but I do think Valve really sat on a big idea about a multi specialist aoe class and shit out the worst possible scenario, especially release pyro, absolute nightmare.
Sniper balancing is already a very hot topic, and the wrangler is objectively overpowered. This is also a very vague example, what about more closed out maps/parts of maps where both sniper and wrangler aren't that much of an issue yet the small hallways and sertain places will be fully occupied by this deranged airblast hitbox?
I am sorry if this is a joke post and im just being too straight forward.
I hate airblast personally (that has nothing to do with my flair trust me). Negation mechanics are very devisive as they are. They are generally not fun to play against, they are not engaging to the player you use it on. It does not necesserily apply exclusively to airblast but to any form of delfect/projectile desctruction/resistance etc. That is also why vaccinator is universally hated. The only good way to play against those things is to just avoid encounter at all. Which is very weird way to go about it in a fast pace first person shooter. At least we don't have tanks and shields from overwatch, you know
I remember how I accidentally killed enemy Pyro and Scout, just because soldier tried to shoot me with a rocket. I still don’t understand which weapon he used, because his rockets were flying in completely different directions.
I dislike the lack of agency in the Pyro interaction. once airblasted my path is set until I'm on the ground.
sniper isn't better of course, but I feel more in control via placebo
because both soldier and demo rely on momentum and airstrafing in order to move quickly, and airblasting a player prevents air strafing until they touch the ground. Also every explosive you reflect is a massive chunk of damage prevented (about half your health on average) so by pressing M2, you are effectively hard countering one of the most fun parts of playing those characters *and* are also making yourself much tankier. As someone who plays pyro a lot, I think the airblast hitbox is fine, but I'm also ok with the change they made so pyro can't airblast behind himself anymore.
The think about pyro is that his airblast prevents airstrafing, which is a foundational tf2 movement mechanic and combined with the momentum from the airblast is basicaly a stun. If they removed that I think airblast would be perfect.
Pyro is the worst designed class imo. Jungle Inferno’s “rework” was such a joke. Airblast is the only thing keeping Pyro from being on a much lower power level than the rest of the cast. If anything they should revert airblast to how it was pre jungle inferno because comboing was easier
literally nobody says this?????????
sniper's main issue is that bc of the way most tf2 maps are he can just one shot you from across the whole map?
1 wrangler engi can be beaten by a good uber push maybe although its still rly hard bc the sentry becomes stupidly tanky but when there's 3 spread out wrangled sentries then there's almost nothing you can do
pyro's issue imo is that a pyro can sneeze on you and like 2/3 of ur health are gone if you're a light class imo but that's still pushing it
Maybe a controversial opinion, but I think the best thing for pyro would be to nerf afterburn a little bit. Not too much, but I just feel like once you’re set on fire as scout, engi, spy, or sniper, you just need to immediately get to a health pack or you’re done for. It lasts painfully long and it’s just irritating I think. Also, the scorch shot needs to be toned down a bit too. Literally just decrease the radius a little bit and it’s good. I feel since jungle inferno he went from underpowered to overpowered.
It's always annoying to get your movement limited by an enemy, and Pyro can do it relatively easily and frequently. It's why the sandman got nuked from orbit despite not actually being a problem, because whiners got upset about stuns existing at all.
A. What are you talking about? Pretty ridiculous to claim people are fine with sniper when so many posts complain that sniper is not fair.
B. What are you talking about? Many people already agree that the wrangler is op.
C. Yeah pyro should at least need to see what they are reflecting.
Soldier is statistically the most mained class, so that could be a factor in why so many people hate it.
Soldier mains when they brainlessly and predictably shoot reflectable projectiles at the class that can reflect projectiles and they end up dying to a reflected projectile:
That’s why I use the Beggar’s so even I don’t know where the rocket is going to go
Its been like 10 years and i still chase the high of doing some stupid fucking beggars jump and then triple rocketing some poor soul
Were you ever able to hit it?
Oh yeah i got good at it by spamming beggers jumps on 247 2fort servers and bombing snipers. There's always a sniper on 2fort hahahaha
load 3 rockets do an endless taunt that you can cancel on the fly, like conga or kazotsky kick untaunt as soon as you see someone come attack you
That’s my defense mechanism whenever someone tries to ruin a kazotsky kick party in 2fort. I also saw a guy annihilate someone on a Hightower match by waiting outside the spawn door
Oh my fucking god LOL how have i never heard of this??
This is the way, I've played thousands of hours of Pyro and yet trying to reflect against a Beggar's Soldier short circuits my brain every time
Calm down soundsmith
Guys, this glue smells frickin’ amazing
*cue giggling like an idiot while tapping the M1 key
"how do you reflec a rocket if the soldier thas shoot it dont now where is going?"
"if you don't know what you're doing, your ennemy will certainly not either" -Sun Tzu I guess
I read that in the Soldiers voice
90% of soldiers stop shooting rockets right before the pyro misses a reflect
Soldiers when their brainless mechanic gets countered by a slightly less brainless mechanic
“I don’t see a class that can reflect my rockets, I see a class that can absorb it!” -Lazypurple
“Airblast is by far my favorite part about playing pyro” -also Lazypurple
I like to stare back at pyros that like to wait to air blast, we stare at each other in a retarded silence. Then I randomly flick my weapon as if I was in recoil from firing my launcher, juking them into air blasting so I can fire, and if that don't work I just switch to my shotgun
Shhh don’t talk about the flick
THAT IS SO SMART. How is this game two decades old and I'm still learning stuff?
I've played more than enough soldier to know the exact firing interval between rockets. Could I tell you it in milliseconds? No. But put me in front of a soldier and I'm hitting M2 in time with his rockets. Then he screams how I'm hacking and have autoreflect and I'm like...no, dude. You're just utterly braindead and hold down M1.
Airblast cooldown is exact same as stock rocket launcher firing speed at 0.8s
Now that is intentional design lol
All I have is projectiles :(
https://youtu.be/ur8ys2aglI4?t=6m55s
soldier mains when they realize shotguns exist
gunboat mains when they realize they can just leave the pyro alone
Seriously, even if you are dead set on murdering the pyro its better to leave and approach from a different angle. So long as you’ve got enough health for a jump you should nearly always have the advantage as a gunboat soldier. And if you don’t have the health for a jump: get the fuck out of there ASAP
Specially because Pyro is like The One class that can't do follow you or harass you in any way if you're outside their range Arguably Heavy as well but he's Heavy
Even when I run gunboats you can just stalk the pyro and take potshots when he's not looking,usually 2-3 rockets do the trick
shotgun soldiers realising pyro can dish out more damage with flaregun at a midrange and flamethrower+shotgun at close range
90 damage crits baby
"That sounds like something for Canadians." -The Soldier
Just use a shotgun lol
But..but the Gunboats…the Schmovement :(
You don't need gunboats if you don't know how to rocket jump!
If they have the schmovement, they should just Schmove away from the Pyro. What’s he gonna do? Jetpack after you?
Maybe one day and with enough experience they'll eventually find out that their favorite class has a shotgun
That's not as fun, less rocket jump
Tbh it's not that hard to kill a pyro as a soldier, you just have to be smart with how you're using your rockets, positioning and being patient Of course it's hard if the pyro is very skilled but at this point basically any class can die to him as easily
>soldier >smart There's your first problem, most soldier mains will bum rush a pyro thinking they can get a cheap and easy kill, not realizing that pyro is very good at countering an ambush. It's much better to approach from a different angle or use a method that doesn't involve rocket spam, since the pyro can just easily counter it. I've died more times to someone behind me with a shotgun than in front of me with rockets
idk man it doesn't take much skill to hit reflects I have like 2 hours on pyro and I can hit pretty much every reflect
Shotgun
I don't think soldier mains hate pyros too much compared to spy mains. Which is like the 2nd hated class after sniper.
That and stun in a movement based shooter I guess
Well, forget those lime colored Scunts. It's the enemy soldier mains that ruin your day in Harvest.
people absolutely complain about sniper and the wrangler tf are you on about
I didn't say people don't complain about the sniper and wrangler. I asked an entirely separate question regarding peoples perspective on the airblast.
Then why did you put the sniper's range as a comparation in the image?
Not only that, bro picked HARVEST of all maps. This is like picking dustbowl and cherry picking demo, and then giving reasons why scout needs buffed.
MFW the map in which only 2 snipers can see the entire area is overpowered for sniper
Your image is framing it as "why people think sniper and wrangler ok but airblast overpowered!?!?!" If you want a real answer for the question in the title, it's because airblast's hitbox being just a massive cube around the player that can even hit BEHIND them is kinda bullshit, especially when said hitbox is connected to a tool which takes away the opponent's ability to play the game
They actually fixed that in the 64 bit update. Its a cone now :)
only for players
It kind of makes sense for the blast to pull little things around you but I feel like it's more of a catchall for latency differences.
Can you elaborate on this?
wait really?
I apologize if it came off that way, I did mean to sincerely ask :(
Both Sniper and the Wrangler require a relatively decent amount of aim. The old (32bit) airblast did not. Even now, it's still pretty forgiving in terms of aim. The 64 bit update just fixed a longstanding issue where Pyros could hit players who were off-screen or behind them. That's it. That's the whole reason behind the complaints with the old hitbox. It has nothing to do with range, and it's all to do with ease of use. Hitting someone with an airblast used to be the easiest thing in the game, and now it's somewhat more reasonable. You now have to hit people who are on your screen. This is how it should have always been from the beginning. Asking for more is frankly ridiculous.
I appreciate your detailed answer, thank you! This kind of answer is the one I was looking for to begin with, and I think I regret starting this particular conversation with this particular image. It seems like a lot of people assume I was asking in bad faith, or with a tone of bitterness because I used a jokey exaggerated straw man. I'm new to the subreddit so I don't really know how the tone of discussions here usually go.
If you think the wrangler requires aim your trolling.
I mean in the sense that you have to put your crosshair near an enemy that is on your screen. Even if there's a form of aim assistance, it's not like you can spin around in a circle and still hit every shot
I need a crosshair to tell whether the main servers will read my backstab or they assume that i stabbed their eye
Well, Pyro airblast does require some smart timings and aiming reflects well makes you much more dangerous. But yes even a bad Pyro can be annoying, which isn't as much the case for engi and not at all for sniper. In the end, all 3 mechanics are in need of change but we also all know we won't get that :)
Ok but "the area of influence is smaller than two of the most-complained-about things *in the game* (due to their area of influence)" is not the ironclad defense you may think it is.
It wasn't supposed to be a defense I just wanted to share a related meme :(
How is it an entirely separate question when you prelude it with two panels about sniper and pyro? It's like you don't understand your own meme.
Yeah ive seen way more complaints about the sniper being too OP than the airblast
HOW ARE YOU EVERYWHERE I AM
TF2/Murder Drones fans have good taste.
“Pyro is balanced guys, why aren’t you complaining about…” proceeds to list two things literally everybody online complains about.
I like harvest :)
the only op class on that map is scout and i love it
Its mostly just crybabies who are mad that the short range class puts you at a disadvantage in close range Honestly, just stop paying attention to the "airblast op" people, the game becomes much more enjoyable when you stop caring about other players opinions tbh
Do you mean the size if the airblast hitbox? Its stupidly big, simple as. Make it a cone with the origin somewhere on the pyro's hitbox and with the base area towards where the pyro was aiming.
It already is since the 64 bit update.
Thats good then. Then why are people bitching by making these posts?
I think this person is bitching about the people bitching about it.
>people respond to idiots bitching by bitching like idiot Ah tf2 community, actually stop being stupid please
That's like asking a dead fish to swim
That way pyro becomes an even more worthless class than he/she is.not a good solution.
Its a fair solution. Pyro does not need to airblast a rocket 3 meters and 90 degrees to the left of them. As long as pyro can airblast anything coming towards them then its good
Also the cone can have the base (the area opposite to the pyro) be pretty big, just not soo big as to reflect things in the most asinine ways possible
least schizophrenic r/tf2 user
i think the problem is that both the knockback and the reflecting are handled by the same hitbox. it's fine and fair for reflecting projectiles, but a bit too generous for pushing people away. i think it would be better to split those responsibilities into 2 hitboxes with their own sizes and shapes.
It was fixed to a cone in 64 bit update for pushing players
Uh. They are.
You can't complain about it anymore sense they nerfed it back.
Of course this was made as a pyro player blind enough to see that the other 2 are complained as well
The post isn't about the meme, it's about the title of the post. The meme is only tangentially related, and I picked it because people tend to interact more with posts that have a video/image attached to it. I wasn't asking "why do people only ever complain about Pyro", I was asking "when people complain about Pyro, why is it that they focus on the size of the airblast so much?"
You couldve post an image or meme with no opinion in it or else it will contradict with your actual opinion
It's not a spacing issue, it's a class match up issue. Airblast completely shuts off demo knight and soldier and it's like Not fun? Some maps also have forced paths
People think airblast is retarded because it actively removes any capability of air strafe, a core mechanic in favor of a pseudo stun lock (mega gay). it not working properly before 64 bit, and not requiring people to even be on screen was just doubly shit. Nobody good at the game cares about projectile reflects. it's a non factor. Despite this, nobody good at the game really cares, because even engi can out dps flamethrowers lol. Pyro's only actual purpose is being annoying for ubers, being a hard counter for the shittiest class in the game, and occasionally getting meme kills with reflects.
The airblast's stun lock was removed in jungle inferno.
Not really. They buffed it in Jungle Inferno. It used to last 0.5 seconds, but now lasts infinitely until the victim lands. The only "nerf" to the stun is that, instead of a full removal of air strafing, you lose 75% of your control. Which is about the same as a revved up Heavy. In other words, you're still not strafing, and the stun lasts for even longer than before. It's a buff.
it still actively removes your ability to air strafe. you get thrown in the air with zero velocity.
How is it zero velocity? Is velocity only counted when you move by yourself? I know velocity and speed are different in terms of real physics but I’m still confused
he meant to say it resets your velocity, since you could be moving at incredible hihg speed and lose it all even if the airblast is in the direction youre moving (as if to boost you)
Not quite. It roughly (i don't quite fully understand the mechanic) add/subtracts the airblast's velocity and then flips the direction of that velocity depending on the angles. Somebody moving VERY quickly (e.g. sticky jumper caber demo) will barely notice the +/- of the airblast and keep moving very quickly, just in a flipped direction. It's why somebody walking at a pyro getting directly airblasted just gets bounced in place (the subtract brings them close to 0 speed, and there's nothing left to flip), but somebody walking away gets absolutely yeeted. It's definitely not a hard velocity reset, if a mechanic isn't made of spaghetti it's not a valve mechanic. You also get other weird stuff like manntreads soldier's resisting the +/-, but not the velocity flip (down speed becomes up speed). So you can actually keep them forever airborne like 3 metres in the air with the right speeds in play.
figured i was half wrong but amen to it being valve spaghetti
classic pyro main playing the victim
Sniper shouldn't exist, straight-up. The Wrangler would be okay without the shield, or if the shield only applied when it was in its inactive period (especially if it took at least a second to reactivate and couldn't be repaired in that state at all). Pyro's airblast is mostly fine, but it shouldn't hit behind him, that's just silly. It also probably shouldn't keep Demoknight's charge completely disabled for a couple seconds after you're airblasted, since that's counterintuitive and senseless, and it also removes potential counterplay Demoknights have (where they could bait an airblast and then charge in immediately after the Pyro uses it). I don't want airblast to be nerfed in huge ways, I just want it to be made a little more logical and consistent.
It shouldn't interfere with air strafing at all, just push people away. that's all it needs for counterplay.
The last one feels like a sentence you’d hear during a RussianBadger video
Pyro's airblast hitbox is legitimately too big, but that's about the only problem I have with it. I think if you tone down the hitbox, it's a fine ability. I have seen some people think that Pyro shouldn't have airblast at all, and I don't think those people are really worth listening to. Airblast is annoying at times, but something being annoying doesn't mean it necessarily needs to be nerfed. I'm annoyed by Vaccinator Medics, but I don't think that weapon needs to be nerfed. (Though I do think it ought to be banned in competitive play)
Didn't they change Pyro's airblast to use the cone again?
If you think the big ass square airblast hitbox was OK you need to get checked
It's a case of "mad cuz bad". It explains most complaints. I had a nub in one of my games complain about soldier today. You can pretty much just chalk it up to this.
I personally dislike airblast because I find it too spammable for how valuable it is, this is also why I think that the dragon's fury is one of the best designed weapons in the game.
Because soldiers and demos don’t like it when I know how to air blast properly.
That’s also usually the amount of space where pyro can deal consistent damage (excluding flare guns)
Speaking of pyro on this map, if you stack pyro or Heavy the enemy physically cannot get to the control point. I’ve been on both ends of this
I think the main complaint about airblast is its ability to shut down ubers? It's not like spamming airblasts achieve much of anything unlike rockets and snipers not can pyros airblasts more than 4 times each tank.
skill issue
The problem is that you’re playing on harvest
I think a lot of the issues with discussions of balance is that the conversations usually have a large overlap with enjoyment and if something is literally broken. Something can be balanced, but not fun to play against; something can be unbalanced, but also fun. And if something is broken its hard to argue how it should be balanced until its fixed to function the way its intended. For example, the argument of something being balanced but unfun could be sniper. As class he is supposed to excel at long range against single targets, but struggles against groups in his face. On paper he's a balanced class, but many people think it isnt fun to die to a sniper nor is it fun to learn to play sniper. An example of something being fun but unbalanced is soldier. Most people either main soldier or have him in their back pocket as he is really easy to play even if you haven't rocket jumped a day in your life. However, almost no one complains about soldier because he's a fun class to both play and fight. As for something being just broken is spy. And I mean literally broken, we all know that disguises can sometimes be missing parts/cosmetics, and melee hit registration is usually pretty bad for every class. As a result it's hard to talk about balance for spy until fundamental things about him are fixed. I don't know anything about pyro's airblast hit box. Is the way it currently works supposed to be that way? Was it supposed to be fixed but it was never gotten around to? Maybe the current complaints about airblast would dissappear if its something that is simply broken but needs to be fixed. But even if broken good, broken bad, or perfectly balanced in every way, it's still perfectly fine to not like something in the game if you don't think it's fun.
I think the argument is that it was broken fun. Hit box behind the pyro is a pretty niche case trust only then best of the best can pull off deliberately. The wide square hit box, however, could be used by even moderately skilled pyros to start combo attacks. They’re now not impossible, but a *lot* more difficult to perform. Some people argue that it’s not fun to play against, but I’d point out that the counterplay to combo pyro is pretty straightforward - kill him before he closes in. The other thing is that pyro’s already a relatively weak class, and this fix nerfs the main thing he has going for him - the airblast. I think the meme’s pointing out that while the updater could have chosen to rebalance something universally hated like sniper, or overpowered like the wrangler, instead he chose to nerfed the second-weakest class in the game.
The airblast slowdown effect should def have a timer though its really annoying that it lasts for as long as you're in the air
People can complain about multiple things you know this right
Why are you using one of the most open maps to bitch about a close range class
well that is the biggest strawman ever of an image post i've seen
As someone that used to main a bunch of classes when I still played the game a good pyro is a nightmare. Base game flames are actually impossible to see through which makes hitting him up close a pain in the ass, even if you are playing a class that can handle him up close they have the magical M2 button that locks your mid air mobility which severely dicks over scout, demo, and soldier while also having a mild effect on another pyro (Cause flare jumping and jetpack). He's not busted by any means but he's not weak either. Playing on good pyro maps is hellish because they win 7/10 battles there. All in all Pyro is an extremely annoying class just because of how much utility he has, people only think he's complete shit because of the low skilled randoms that play him.
In this example, you're comparing two things that barely move (wrangled sentry and Sniper), to a class that can be highly mobile. The pyros airblast is op because of how big it is (it's been reverted to the old size for projectiles). He's (used to be) able to airblast projectiles out of his fov, and players literally cannot move themselves when airblasted. You effectively get applied a -100% movement speed debuff until you hit the ground, seems a bit unfair considering how a majority of classes that airshot have to deal with the enemy moving on their own.
Do you really think people like the wrangler enough to defend it
Because not running directly at the class that has an effective range of 3 feet is too hard for the average braindead TF2 player.
Who says those first two at all?
Holy moly, the real redditors have arrived!
Why not bring back the old degreaser and reserve shooter? I find that they made the Pyro nerfed even more.
Its because of the shape allowing some ridiculous jank at close range. This isn't really fixable though cuz other shapes have just as many issues if not more. I don't really think its an unfair shape or size though, total cope.
In all my thousands of hours, not once have I heard someone complain about the size of the airblast hotbox.
The size wasn’t really an issue to me, if anything the “fire rate” of airblast is too high. But honestly, pyro needs anything he can get.
Because the hitbox is so big it makes airblasting a trivial task, and often you can airblast projectiles outside your fov (also known as projectiles you didn't react to in time)
>implying people don’t complain about sniper or the wrangler Also it’s because air blast was bigger than it should be from a logical standpoint, it doesn’t make any fuckin sense.
Did people forget that the airblast got changed in the 64 bit update to use the cone again or?
Projectiles still use the box hitbox.
The argument of the meme is essentially the same as "I would rather have 10 kg of dirt than 1 kg of gold because 10 is greater than 1". You're comparing areas that mean completely different things.
They changed the airblast hitbox in the 64bit update
wbwvwbwb2i1yyyyy6y66666ywv2i
When a projectile class is killed by pyro with airblast, the brain is denied the dopamine it was expecting. The denial often causes the response of anger/rage. People then associate their anger/rage with the airblast and pyro at large.
My issue is that airblast can counter an Uber with almost zero skill and thought process
I think I've finally realized why Harvest is my favorite map.
People have this weird delusion that Pyro is a menace at close range and therefore having any kind of way to engage at mid-range is broken and unfair.
You can airblast people behind you. Its not a balancing problem but pyro is still really janky and unintuitive to fight.
I suck st reflects, I need advice Anyway, only the better pyroes can reflect. When I get killed by one, I make sure to always stare the pyro dead in the eyes and run... AWAY. Damn you, Gunboats! Hell, I have only ever successfully reflected 2 and that was dopamine.wav.
I wouldn't have an issue with Pyro's airblast size if the Pyro on my team used it to extinguish teammates.
isnt this image from before the pyro update
It is not.
oh ok
My opinion about why people find air blast annoying is the same reason people find the short circuit annoying. The exchange can often feel like a skill imbalance and feel unfair when all the work and skill that goes into hitting a shot can be deleted by clicking a button. Yes, good airblast is absolutely a skill, no doubt. And yeah— it’s definitely a “git gud” situation for us demo and soldier mains. A skilled demo/solly player will be fine playing against an airblasting pyro. But again, I think it’s the skill exchange that can just *feel* unfair/unbalanced alongside the fact that any ability that cancels a player’s shot/move in a multiplayer game has a high potential to feel frustrating on the receiving end.
Haha! Airblast go PSCHAAA!!
I just need to know how i keep seeing pyros wm2 so quickly. When I hit m2 i cant do a 2nd airblast quickly like these other pyros do. I don't get how they manage to reload scorch shots so rapidly.
I just hate how long afterburn is. That’s all. And how it takes just one flame.
It's never airblast for me, always the flare spam from pyros everywhere. Or even sometimes just using it a lot and being annoyingly effective at killing me. Iv'e also never noticed how big the hitbox for that actually is lol and I play soldier a lot when beneficial
Ehhhh I guess, but comparing Pyro to the best class in the game is not the way to express your point, and comparing them to the wrangler is just comparing apples and oranges
Soldier is the most versatile and thus most overpowered class but ain't nobody wanna have that conversation.
Both pyro and sniper are fine and if you think otherwise you suck and 99% of the time youve started playing tf2 during like jungle inferno (2017) and I do not respect your opinion
sniper is unfun to fight against and so is pyro but I will always take more issue with sniper because counter pyro play is more enjoyable
Because it's simply not fun that Pyro could airblast you without even actually having to look at you. Luckily, they changed it, so it's no longer a problem. Also, nice cherry picking, since nearly everyone complains about Sniper and the Wrangler.
Post of actual genuine attempt at discussion in r/tf2, Op I'm very disappointed that you've probably taken the collective of the worst opinions founded on a lack of understanding of anything of merit as gospel.
People hate sniper, but I also just hate the reflect hit box. If I shoot a rocket at your back, there's no way it should be reflected.
pyro is not busted. But its fun. people dont like other people having fun. thats why black box (bad box) mains exist
personally, i don't care much about the size, i just hate that it's a stun mechanic. of course, this is mainly in the context of playing demoknight, because i genuinely think it isn't ok for the only way to survive meeting a pyro as demoknight is to run away. airblast alone is why i say that demoknight is the worst somewhat serious option in the entire game.
Its annoying.
People don't realize projectiles move faster than most soldiers while they are rocket jumping and airblast has no lag compensation so higher ping players can't even efficiently use the damn thing The only real complain I see is the fact it doesn't rotate with Pyro and that is really bad, but at least we got the cone back recently
People that complain about the airblast hitbox while pretending that the splash damage hitbox doesnt exist:
Airblast is Pyro's only good tool. It's also (referring to the pseudo-stunlock) annoying as fuck and everyone hates playing against it. You have to understand we as Pyro mains are only defending it because if Valve ever nerfs it, it will be four years before we see compensation buffs.
You hate sniper because you keep dying to him I hate sniper because he's hard to play We are not the same
also hate when people talk about w+m1 while completely ignoring my crackhead movement mixed with split second timing for my flanks😔😔
I haven't had a legit one of these discussions since the x64 update, since it fixed the airblast's shape. Honestly I think with that change, Pyro's in the most balanced spot it's ever been in right now.
it's just that most soldier mains use the gunboats instead of a gun, so either you run at a pyro with your melee (bad idea) or shoot rockets at him (even worse idea) or rocketjump over him and shoot pyro (not shit idea, but not the best). still, shotguns exist
Because there is way to many soldier main and usely airblasting some one isnt the best Idea when Pyro effectif range is thas limited
> is way to many soldier Did you mean to say "too many"? [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Harvest is like the one fucking map where pryos are easily tolerable what kind of strawman argument is this
Pyro definitely shouldn't be nerfed, that however doesn't make him any less annoying to fight.
It’s not just that, I see why valve would buff a class like pyro since he gets shut down easily by any class that has any sort of medium or long range. The shitty thing is the debuff applied in air, completely shutting down and horizontal air movement, for a game about fairness it would suck if some class with a danger zone of a quarter of a KOTH map could juggle you and you can do about jackshit with it. I definitely think the casual setting also applies with many casual players obviously playing casual there’s always a select amount of people with thousands of hours; I’m sure most of the complaints come from casual matches I haven’t heard of a single pyro complaint in comp mostly because comp matches are filled with hitscan or projectile which are precisely timed projectiles at that. I’m mostly in agreement for a nerf to air blast but something akin to a change rather than a nerf, making the hitbox smaller would only anger players and confuse newer players. But I’d really appreciate it if they removed the movement debuff whilst airbasted, it adds nothing to the fairness and I think most people get caught off being juggled off the map or in the air about to get hit by their own projectile with no way to dodge. Also if I put my two cents in about pyro, I don’t like the class simply because of the complex weapons with little synergy and community made weapons attempting to bring synergy but making weapons objectively better than stock. Many new players gravitate to maining pyro since it’s a safety assured class, sure heavy might have a lower skill ceiling as pyro but as pyro you get a range of safe options such as being immune to afterburn, ability to blind sight lines and lob projectiles back. I don’t think pyro should be changed because he’s practically a part of the meta but I do think Valve really sat on a big idea about a multi specialist aoe class and shit out the worst possible scenario, especially release pyro, absolute nightmare.
Sniper balancing is already a very hot topic, and the wrangler is objectively overpowered. This is also a very vague example, what about more closed out maps/parts of maps where both sniper and wrangler aren't that much of an issue yet the small hallways and sertain places will be fully occupied by this deranged airblast hitbox? I am sorry if this is a joke post and im just being too straight forward. I hate airblast personally (that has nothing to do with my flair trust me). Negation mechanics are very devisive as they are. They are generally not fun to play against, they are not engaging to the player you use it on. It does not necesserily apply exclusively to airblast but to any form of delfect/projectile desctruction/resistance etc. That is also why vaccinator is universally hated. The only good way to play against those things is to just avoid encounter at all. Which is very weird way to go about it in a fast pace first person shooter. At least we don't have tanks and shields from overwatch, you know
I dislike pyros cus I’m a spy/demoknight main I am very biased
I remember how I accidentally killed enemy Pyro and Scout, just because soldier tried to shoot me with a rocket. I still don’t understand which weapon he used, because his rockets were flying in completely different directions.
Only issue is whoever is complaining about this having a lack of skll.
I dislike the lack of agency in the Pyro interaction. once airblasted my path is set until I'm on the ground. sniper isn't better of course, but I feel more in control via placebo
tell me the first is a joke, please tell me the first is a joke. no one can be that stupid to genuinely think that
As a Pyro Main. Yes. WHY THE FUCK DOES EVERY SOLDIER AND DEMO MAIN KEEP SAYING I HAVE NO BRAIN JUST BECAUSE I USE AIRBLAST.
because both soldier and demo rely on momentum and airstrafing in order to move quickly, and airblasting a player prevents air strafing until they touch the ground. Also every explosive you reflect is a massive chunk of damage prevented (about half your health on average) so by pressing M2, you are effectively hard countering one of the most fun parts of playing those characters *and* are also making yourself much tankier. As someone who plays pyro a lot, I think the airblast hitbox is fine, but I'm also ok with the change they made so pyro can't airblast behind himself anymore.
The think about pyro is that his airblast prevents airstrafing, which is a foundational tf2 movement mechanic and combined with the momentum from the airblast is basicaly a stun. If they removed that I think airblast would be perfect.
The only thing i find annoying about airblast is that i can't strafe while being airblasted off a cliff :(
Pyro is the worst designed class imo. Jungle Inferno’s “rework” was such a joke. Airblast is the only thing keeping Pyro from being on a much lower power level than the rest of the cast. If anything they should revert airblast to how it was pre jungle inferno because comboing was easier
Because anything that interferes with player movement in a movement based game is bad design.
literally nobody says this????????? sniper's main issue is that bc of the way most tf2 maps are he can just one shot you from across the whole map? 1 wrangler engi can be beaten by a good uber push maybe although its still rly hard bc the sentry becomes stupidly tanky but when there's 3 spread out wrangled sentries then there's almost nothing you can do pyro's issue imo is that a pyro can sneeze on you and like 2/3 of ur health are gone if you're a light class imo but that's still pushing it
Maybe a controversial opinion, but I think the best thing for pyro would be to nerf afterburn a little bit. Not too much, but I just feel like once you’re set on fire as scout, engi, spy, or sniper, you just need to immediately get to a health pack or you’re done for. It lasts painfully long and it’s just irritating I think. Also, the scorch shot needs to be toned down a bit too. Literally just decrease the radius a little bit and it’s good. I feel since jungle inferno he went from underpowered to overpowered.
I think this shows an issue with Harvest more than anything.
It's always annoying to get your movement limited by an enemy, and Pyro can do it relatively easily and frequently. It's why the sandman got nuked from orbit despite not actually being a problem, because whiners got upset about stuns existing at all.
I dont see demoknight here. He has access to the sky, ground, and water.
My only shame as main Pyro is that most of his weapons are pure physical SHIT
A. What are you talking about? Pretty ridiculous to claim people are fine with sniper when so many posts complain that sniper is not fair. B. What are you talking about? Many people already agree that the wrangler is op. C. Yeah pyro should at least need to see what they are reflecting.