Not a bad thing said about him by anyone. He and Murdoch were only 2 weeks or so apart in age, I reckon they might have been friends, of a sort. Andrews definitely looked out for the wellbeing of the crew & third class, and not just the first class passengers
Oh right, now that you mention it, Andrews would be my other pick besides Molly Brown. From what I read about him, he really was like this in real life too, a great man who really cared about the people around him
Thomas Andrews is just the warmest character ever onscreen, I swear. When Victor Garber was a villain in Legally Blonde my 11-year-old self was just crushed and couldn't believe it. Not Thomas Andrews!
That's my #1 - I can identify w that man like no other on board. I've always like to learn about how things work & can't really relate to having millions of dollars like an Astor or Guggenheim.... That's not my world.
Especially something I saw on a documentary... A saying he lived by..."in the end, what we think know or believe is of little consequence..... The only consequence lies in what we do"
Wish I could've known him 😎
Murdoch. Cameron took dramatic liberties with his storyline (which he now regrets) since by all accounts, Murdoch was a stand-up guy. Not only a skilled sailor, he was extremely smart and also seemed to be a bit ahead of his time when it came to treating women as equals etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ewan Stewart played his role amazingly well, but I can't help thinking how epic it could have been had we got a full Collapsible A scene with him & Moody getting the heroes' death saving passengers, instead of the shooting plotline.
Ive been working my way through a lot of his TV work and its incredible how good he is at conveying emotions with very little facial movement (not an absence of it, but knowing when to use it and when not)
He's not done as much screen work in recent years, doing a lot of stage, but he's got a small independent film in the works which I'm looking forward to seeing. It's covering mental health and the stigma of suicide, which is a fascinating parallel when you consider the role most people know him for. He's listed as a "guest" actor and no info about the role aside from "Mechanic", so it'll be interesting to see what part he actually plays in the plot.
As controversial as that death scene was for Murdoch's character I still feel Ewan Stewart really did a great job with it and his performance stuck with me more than the leads (I mean no disrespect to Leo and Kate who were good, too!). Even in this flawed interpretation Cameron chose to use for him I still feel Murdoch comes across as likable and a good and competent person trying to do his best with the misfortune he was dealt that night. He's literally shown ignoring Cal while loading Collapsible C and gives him a shocked look when Cal sticks money in his pocket and tries to bribe him so I never interpreted that scene as Murdoch taking a bribe. Even in that scene it's made clear Murdoch was letting any men nearby in the boat after the women boarded it so the bribe was essentially useless (as we see later when Cal shows up at Collapsible A). In a lesser actor's hands Murdoch could have come across much worse so Stewart deserves a lot of credit.
It's based on survivor accounts, multiple people still onboard at the time and within the vicinity of Collapsible A recounted some variation of "one of the ship's officers shot one or two men attempting to rush the boat before giving a military salute and turning the gun on himself," and some of the accounts are so similar, it's extremely likely that it occurred. The one thing we don't know for certain is who fired the shots, the name Murdoch was associated with the story in the aftermath of the disaster but really only after the press got a hold of it, there are very few firsthand survivor accounts (letters, journal entries, etc.) that mention the rank of the officer, let alone a name. And the rank is a point of confusion as well because Murdoch was originally Chief Officer before Wilde was brought onboard, and he and Lightoller were demoted.
I read that there are multiple witnesses who claimed that Murdoch shot some people rushing the boats and then took his own life. Lightoller's account of Murdoch's death is most unreliable as he was a company man who knew that bitter truth could ruin WSL's reputation forever. Plus, he was trying to comfort Murdoch's grieving widow. He wouldn't have told her the truth if Murdoch indeed committed suicide.
Lightoller did later tell his son, or so I heard, that Murdoch had indeed shot at people. He also confessed in his deathbed that one of the officers committed suicide. Again, this is all I have read/heard. All of this, coupled with survivors' testimonies, letters, give weight to the possibility that Murdoch may have committed suicide.
That night was an extraordinary circumstance. We cannot ignore the fact that Murdoch possibly felt guilty for failing to prevent the collision, even though he wasn't at fault here. He knew half of the passengers would die. He also knew he would never be seeing his family again. Even the strongest of people can break under extreme stressful situations.
So, I won't rule out the possibility that he did shoot people and killed himself. That doesn't undo the fact that he was a hero that night. So many men owe their lives to him. He went above and beyond his duty to save men, who folks like Lightoller and other officers turned away.
Heroism doesn't exist in a bubble. Real people are not perfect, but faulty. We must focus on the overwhelming good that Murdoch did that night. I don't think for a second that Murdoch becomes a sinner because he may have shot people and killed himself. Desperate times make people take desperate measures. Some people crack under extreme stress. They are only human.
There is not much testimony saying Murdoch was washed overboard and drowned, but there are many who say he committed suicide (as per their belief). The overall circumstantial evidence, despite being not fully reliable, supports the latter theory more.
I was referring to the bribe when I mentioned creative liberties. Cameron was within his rights to use the suicide plotline, although it was probably better not to attribute it definitely to one officer for obvious reasons. Although it can be said that the evidence favours one person over another, it's not definitely known and IMHO better to leave it ambiguous. I'd say the same if he'd reversed the outcomes for Murdoch and Wilde, BTW.
I think portraying William being washed away with collapsible A alongside Moody would have been a more satisfactory ending for the casual viewer, still would have made film Murdoch a sympathetic character, and have the added bonus of giving Edward Fletcher more to do. And killing Tommy off like that was fairly pointless.
If they needed the "Hollywood drama" of guns, they could have just as well used the account of (possibly) Murdoch firing off warning shots to get that group of men out of the boat he was trying to load and still had the element of excitement/peril. Hell, have Cal get his comeuppance there by realising his money really won't save him there and have to find some other way to save his butt, like he did in the final film
I believe it's likely Murdoch did use a gun that night, at least to warn men off crowding the final boats. I personally don't believe he killed himself, but I also don't view it as a sin or an error if he did. He would have been under a huge mental strain that night and if he did make such a choice, it might well have been practical rather than blindly emotional- a choice between a quick certain end versus cold water which a sailor of his experience would know wouldn't be pleasant.
He was known to be a practical man, and weighing the chances of coming out of the situation alive, he might have come to the conclusion that it wasn't likely. We'll never know what he thought, but in the end as sad as it is, it may well have been the kinder outcome to die. I can't imagine having to live with what happened being the OOW, even if we know there was not a lot he could have done differently with the knowledge he had at that point in time.
The bribe scene should never have happened, I fully agree. It made Murdoch look like a man with questionable ethics. The shooting and suicide, however, I have no problems with since there are several survivor testimonies available.
They could have seen/heard Murdoch do those things or, they may have mistaken him for somebody else. One thing to keep in mind is that before the bridge plunged into the sea, the area was lit as the engines were running. The light may have faded to a reddish hue, but people could still see ahead. So, I personally find it unlikely that those who claim to have seen Murdoch shoot two people, salute his officers and then shoot himself, didn't know who they saw. Most people claimed it was Murdoch or was likely Murdoch. Very few people took the name of Moody or other crew members.
Hence, I don't think Cameron was doing it for the drama alone. We have to remember he is a very meticulous filmmaker. Cameron is a perfectionist and a stickler for details. He knows Titanic inside and out. I doubt "Hollywood drama" with guns was the only reason.
But, if we talk about drama, then the scene would never have been as intense with Murdoch just firing warning shots and Cal just walking away to find another opportunity. Cal had an iceberg-sized ego that needed to be crushed in the narrative of the film. Murdoch throwing him the money to his face, which felt like a real slap, is a great cathartic moment for the audience. So, on that account, it works perfectly.
Having said the above, I agree with the majority that the Cal bribe subplot shouldn't have involved Murdoch. Cameron did it since he was trying to have connective tissues using characters and converging subplots so that the film felt like it was stitched together well rather than scenes happening randomly without any connection with each other.
I personally think the suicide wasn't a practical choice for Murdoch. First, he was a dedicated officer sworn to his duty come what may. I feel he was the most devoted and serious about his job that night. He wouldn't just do that because it was a quick death. It's the compounding guilt that forced him;
1. He blamed himself internally for failing to avoid the collision.
2. He felt that he has condemned people to die and destroyed their families and also, White Star Line's reputation.
3. His guilt became overwhelming when he accidentally shot two people.
Now, he was nothing more than a broken man. He felt that he was a disgrace to his profession. He felt as if he had failed everyone. He felt as if he had failed his family. His loved ones. He felt that he could never look anyone in the eye, if he somehow survived.
So, he mustered the last ounce of courage and righteousness he had left in himself. He felt that punishing himself by committing suicide, would be an honourable way to go rather than live to be called a murderer. He could not bear the thought of him or his loved ones living in ignominy for the rest of their lives. He thought that killing himself would prevent further shame and guilt.
If the above scenario really occurred, then he really had no choice. He was shocked to the degree that he couldn't have helped anyone, anymore.
This is my understanding of what that honourable man went through that night. I feel my eyes moisten as I type this. We can only imagine what happened, but can never really feel what he went through that night as he lowered boat after boat, saving so many women, children and men that night. I only feel a great sense of empathy and respect for Murdoch. Nothing less.
Agreed, nothing less than respect.
I suppose what I meant by it being a practical thing was, if he did it I don't think it was a spur of the moment decision based only on emotion. I think perhaps it had been there in the back of his mind as he loaded boats. He had to know the likelihood of making it out alive was slim. Perhaps he'd made up his mind that he wanted to go out with a degree of certainty rather than leaving it to chance he might die in a horrible way. And then if the shooting happened as described, and someone was killed, as you said, it was a way to "atone", to make up for what had happened. His passengers didn't make it out so he ensured he didn't either. But I think if he made that choice, like everything else he did, there was reason and thought behind it, not just blind emotion in the moment.
I'm still undecided if I think he did do that, it's hard to reconcile the dutiful officer doing everything he can to save people with the description of a man taking that route with the last boats still to go and people that still might be saved...
Tragic all around, his story will never not be the one that really grabs me. They were *so close* to missing the iceberg.
I concur! Murdoch may have thought of it, but the shooting incident made it an inescapable reality for the man. I think that since the shooting happened all of a sudden, against his better judgement, he collapsed internally. The mental stress had been building for quite some time.
Murdoch was trying to desperately hold people off but was completely taken aback when those people leaped towards the boats despite his stern warning. The shooting was more of an instinctual response and not completely in his control by that point. When it happened, the terrible realisation of what he had done, dawned on him.
I feel his body started buckling. I know of people whose muscles go weak under extreme stress. He was a strong officer, still, but realised that he no longer possessed the strength to save anyone. He was completely exhausted mentally and physically. Hence he bid farewell to the world. I strongly feel that this could have happened.
Cameron’s choices didn’t bother me though in the sense that it didn’t make Murdoch look bad. I actually love the scene in the film during the panic and the shooting and then he salutes and shoots himself. It just shows how desperate everyone was and how hard it is to read a situation. Then movie Murdoch feeling terrible about it and taking his life added a sadness to the character that shows how ashamed he was. It’s a realistic moment. Not many would think clearly in that moment so it helps demonstrate what the feelings really were on that night for the audience.
I don't t think it made him look bad either (I feel he never accepted the bribe, he just literally didn't have time for Cal's crap) but plenty of people point to it as Murdoch being a "villain". I even saw one comment that he was "a creep" for being amused at Jack & Rose's smooch on the deck 😮💨
I agree about adding sadness. I remember seeing the film the first time and feeling so desperately sorry for him, thought about that scene for ages afterward.
Molly Brown. I don't know how close the movie portrayal is to her real life personality but Kathy Bates just absolutely nailed the role and I really enjoyed watching her every scene
She did that and more!! She kept moral up on Lifeboat 6 while Quartermaster Hitchens was prophesying doom. And then when she got to the Carpathia, forget about it!! She worked tirelessly for three days to help those ill and in need after they had lost everything. Helped that she spoke 5 languages…hardly the uneducated socialite that myth leads us to believe…
If you're referring to "The Unsinkable Molly Brown," it's pretty highly fictionalized, but still an incredibly fun movie musical :). Interestingly, a lot of the things I've read on her say she wasn't dubbed "Molly" Brown until after the sinking of the Titanic, and possibly not even until the 1930s.
[Just posted about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanic/s/8JlVnFcBGm) but she has a truly amazing real life story. There’s a great biography about her by Kristen Iversen if you are interested. Or if you don’t want to commit the time, the Unsinkable Titanic podcast and My Favorite Murder also have episodes about her.
Colonel Gracie's book, where he goes into the account of what happened on her lifeboat, is fascinating and that section just made me absolutely adore her. Highly recommended. True boss lady.
Thomas Andrews and Margaret Brown are at the top. The Countess of Rothes was also a very interesting person as well, despite the hoity-toity depiction of her in the 1997 film. She took charge of her lifeboat, manning the tiller and rowing, as well as comforting other passengers who had lost family. She was a great philanthropist as well.
Also, shout out to Lawrence Beesley for giving his account from a second-class perspective, which often gets forgotten in Titanic media. I know he wasn't in the 1997 film, but his actor was. ;)
It's such a shame her *Carpathia* scenes were cut or in some cases never filmed. If you look really carefully, she *is* sitting at the tiller of her lifeboat in the 1997 film, so Cameron hadn't intended for her to be just another snobby first class person.
Harold Bride. Because I did the Titanic Musical and got to play him on stage, so I did tons of research on the real Harold Bride. He was a good man and saved a lot of people
Honestly I’m a fan of John Jacob Astor, I know he had such a small part in the movie but still such a great character, I could also go with Margret Brown because I feel like they got her character spot on with how she was actually during the actual disaster and I just love how well Kathy bates did such an incredible job
Here's one of the richest men in the world. The ship is going down. He politely asks if he can accompany his pregnant wife on the lifeboat, and when told no, he demurely acquiesces and sees her safely off before going down with the ship.
Like, the sheer *dignity* of this man.
I almost said Benjamin Guggenheim or the strauses as for that very reason and I loved them all in the movie , but your point is 100% correct and can be applied to pretty much all of these people I mentioned , honestly knowing what happened irl, just the scene with astor in the grand staircase before the dome collapses just makes me tear up a tiny bit….
Thomas Andrews or Lightoller. Lightoller led an interesting life post Titanic. Not only did he survive titanic, he allegedly rammed and sank a U Boat during WW1 then spied on German naval positions during WW2 and took his private motor yacht out to pick up troops during Dunkirk
I feel like what he did in Dunkirk might hsve been trying to correct his misstep in not loading his lifeboats full enough with men back on *Titanic*.
Dude transported like 130 guys on a boat rated for 20.
What's the source for the quote about Joughin having a bad hangover the next day? I was under the impression that there actually wasn't any reliable contemporary evidence that he was heavily intoxicated during the sinking. Also Joughin's testimony at the inquiry pretty clearly indicates he remembered a lot more than that
I actually agree with you I took this quote from a video and a few of others had mentioned the same thing however with more research there’s been a lot of different stories so I’m not sure what is most accurate but given a few videos said that, I found it kind of funny lol 😭🤣🫶🏽
Chief Officer Wilde
I'll put in a word for Wilde since he doesn't get enough love or credit on here. I like Mark Lindsay Chapman's portrayal and Wilde actually had a lot of great moments in the film that were very accurate to real life. He assisted with the lowering of many port side boats (more than Lightoller which surprises people). I think Cameron's film is the only Titanic movie where Wilde is given his dues. In most of the other Titanic movies he's either a non-entity or badly portrayed (the less said about the 2012 miniseries the better!)
Also remember that scene with Cal running up to him with the little girl asking for a place in the lifeboat with her because he's all she has in the world and Wilde allows him on? I have no doubt that scene was inspired by research Cameron did on Wilde. In real life Wilde's wife and twin sons died in childbirth which left him a widow and single parent to his remaining 4 children. It was a nice character moment that probably went over most of the audiences head.
That part was definitely for us nerds. Say what you will about MLC'S off-screen life, he did well with Wilde. That tiny "oh no" moment when he sees the little girl- it lasts all of half a second- but you see his heart break a little bit as he again thinks of his own kids. He knows Cal is full of shit but he puts the little girl's safety first and waves him through. So well done.
I like that Cameron gives the audience closure about what happened to him, as well. He saved Rose not once but twice, and he gets his story wrapped up on-screen because of it.
I Like John Phillips And Harold Bride, even though all of their scenes were cut except one I’ve always liked their story.
https://preview.redd.it/6mpe364zwkad1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78f93254189fa774bf385314784df02f44e555bf
I know I’m late to the party, but I want to mention Father Thomas Byles, a 2nd Class passenger. (In the film, he’s seen near the end praying the Hail, Mary and holding the hands of many people praying with him.
Irl, he was out on deck praying his Evening Breviary when Titanic hit the iceberg. He quickly went down to steerage and showed many people up to the top decks due to the labyrinthine nature of the passages.
He was offered twice a space in a lifeboat and turned both offers down.
He was last seen hearing confessions from as many onboard during the sinking.
He was considered a martyr for the faith by Pope Pius IX and his case for beatification is currently open.
Btw, his final homily was on the importance of spiritual lifeboats in the form of prayer and the sacraments.
James Lancaster, who played him, has told of how the scripture chosen by Cameron was coincidentally the same one he had memorised for his own father's eulogy shortly before filming. The emotion you see from him there is completely real 🥲
You should check out Titanic Talk podcast- Alexandra Boyd, who was one of the core extras, interviews a bunch of her co-extras about their time on the film. James is one of them 😊
It's so great! She also has a documentary about her time filming; it's got some limited screenings in Canada and hopefully will get released on streaming at sone point
Andrews would be my favourite just because from everything I've read, I've yet to come upon anything bad to be said for him.
Guggenheim second, just for the classy way he went out. Knowing the end was near but maintained composure, helped people to the boats, dressed in his best clothes, and faced death with grace and dignity.
Thomas Andrews seems to have been a really warm and caring man.
Not a bad thing said about him by anyone. He and Murdoch were only 2 weeks or so apart in age, I reckon they might have been friends, of a sort. Andrews definitely looked out for the wellbeing of the crew & third class, and not just the first class passengers
Oh right, now that you mention it, Andrews would be my other pick besides Molly Brown. From what I read about him, he really was like this in real life too, a great man who really cared about the people around him
Thomas Andrews is just the warmest character ever onscreen, I swear. When Victor Garber was a villain in Legally Blonde my 11-year-old self was just crushed and couldn't believe it. Not Thomas Andrews!
Same! I felt so betrayed. Haha
He was an all around good, caring, and compassionate guy.
That's my #1 - I can identify w that man like no other on board. I've always like to learn about how things work & can't really relate to having millions of dollars like an Astor or Guggenheim.... That's not my world. Especially something I saw on a documentary... A saying he lived by..."in the end, what we think know or believe is of little consequence..... The only consequence lies in what we do" Wish I could've known him 😎
Seconded
Murdoch. Cameron took dramatic liberties with his storyline (which he now regrets) since by all accounts, Murdoch was a stand-up guy. Not only a skilled sailor, he was extremely smart and also seemed to be a bit ahead of his time when it came to treating women as equals etc. Don't get me wrong, I think Ewan Stewart played his role amazingly well, but I can't help thinking how epic it could have been had we got a full Collapsible A scene with him & Moody getting the heroes' death saving passengers, instead of the shooting plotline.
Straight A. Such an underrated actor and man IRL.
Ive been working my way through a lot of his TV work and its incredible how good he is at conveying emotions with very little facial movement (not an absence of it, but knowing when to use it and when not) He's not done as much screen work in recent years, doing a lot of stage, but he's got a small independent film in the works which I'm looking forward to seeing. It's covering mental health and the stigma of suicide, which is a fascinating parallel when you consider the role most people know him for. He's listed as a "guest" actor and no info about the role aside from "Mechanic", so it'll be interesting to see what part he actually plays in the plot.
Amen to every word of this.
As controversial as that death scene was for Murdoch's character I still feel Ewan Stewart really did a great job with it and his performance stuck with me more than the leads (I mean no disrespect to Leo and Kate who were good, too!). Even in this flawed interpretation Cameron chose to use for him I still feel Murdoch comes across as likable and a good and competent person trying to do his best with the misfortune he was dealt that night. He's literally shown ignoring Cal while loading Collapsible C and gives him a shocked look when Cal sticks money in his pocket and tries to bribe him so I never interpreted that scene as Murdoch taking a bribe. Even in that scene it's made clear Murdoch was letting any men nearby in the boat after the women boarded it so the bribe was essentially useless (as we see later when Cal shows up at Collapsible A). In a lesser actor's hands Murdoch could have come across much worse so Stewart deserves a lot of credit.
Why did Cameron put the shooting scene in I wonder? Just a bit of drama or to instil how hopeless even the crew felt about survival
It's based on survivor accounts, multiple people still onboard at the time and within the vicinity of Collapsible A recounted some variation of "one of the ship's officers shot one or two men attempting to rush the boat before giving a military salute and turning the gun on himself," and some of the accounts are so similar, it's extremely likely that it occurred. The one thing we don't know for certain is who fired the shots, the name Murdoch was associated with the story in the aftermath of the disaster but really only after the press got a hold of it, there are very few firsthand survivor accounts (letters, journal entries, etc.) that mention the rank of the officer, let alone a name. And the rank is a point of confusion as well because Murdoch was originally Chief Officer before Wilde was brought onboard, and he and Lightoller were demoted.
Oh that’s interesting I didn’t know that
As u/kellypeck says, some survivors mentioned a possible shooting. But Cameron also admits it was to heighten the drama.
And he nearly got sued for that!
It wouldn't have gone anywhere -- even in the UK you can't defame the dead.
I read that there are multiple witnesses who claimed that Murdoch shot some people rushing the boats and then took his own life. Lightoller's account of Murdoch's death is most unreliable as he was a company man who knew that bitter truth could ruin WSL's reputation forever. Plus, he was trying to comfort Murdoch's grieving widow. He wouldn't have told her the truth if Murdoch indeed committed suicide. Lightoller did later tell his son, or so I heard, that Murdoch had indeed shot at people. He also confessed in his deathbed that one of the officers committed suicide. Again, this is all I have read/heard. All of this, coupled with survivors' testimonies, letters, give weight to the possibility that Murdoch may have committed suicide. That night was an extraordinary circumstance. We cannot ignore the fact that Murdoch possibly felt guilty for failing to prevent the collision, even though he wasn't at fault here. He knew half of the passengers would die. He also knew he would never be seeing his family again. Even the strongest of people can break under extreme stressful situations. So, I won't rule out the possibility that he did shoot people and killed himself. That doesn't undo the fact that he was a hero that night. So many men owe their lives to him. He went above and beyond his duty to save men, who folks like Lightoller and other officers turned away. Heroism doesn't exist in a bubble. Real people are not perfect, but faulty. We must focus on the overwhelming good that Murdoch did that night. I don't think for a second that Murdoch becomes a sinner because he may have shot people and killed himself. Desperate times make people take desperate measures. Some people crack under extreme stress. They are only human. There is not much testimony saying Murdoch was washed overboard and drowned, but there are many who say he committed suicide (as per their belief). The overall circumstantial evidence, despite being not fully reliable, supports the latter theory more.
I was referring to the bribe when I mentioned creative liberties. Cameron was within his rights to use the suicide plotline, although it was probably better not to attribute it definitely to one officer for obvious reasons. Although it can be said that the evidence favours one person over another, it's not definitely known and IMHO better to leave it ambiguous. I'd say the same if he'd reversed the outcomes for Murdoch and Wilde, BTW. I think portraying William being washed away with collapsible A alongside Moody would have been a more satisfactory ending for the casual viewer, still would have made film Murdoch a sympathetic character, and have the added bonus of giving Edward Fletcher more to do. And killing Tommy off like that was fairly pointless. If they needed the "Hollywood drama" of guns, they could have just as well used the account of (possibly) Murdoch firing off warning shots to get that group of men out of the boat he was trying to load and still had the element of excitement/peril. Hell, have Cal get his comeuppance there by realising his money really won't save him there and have to find some other way to save his butt, like he did in the final film I believe it's likely Murdoch did use a gun that night, at least to warn men off crowding the final boats. I personally don't believe he killed himself, but I also don't view it as a sin or an error if he did. He would have been under a huge mental strain that night and if he did make such a choice, it might well have been practical rather than blindly emotional- a choice between a quick certain end versus cold water which a sailor of his experience would know wouldn't be pleasant. He was known to be a practical man, and weighing the chances of coming out of the situation alive, he might have come to the conclusion that it wasn't likely. We'll never know what he thought, but in the end as sad as it is, it may well have been the kinder outcome to die. I can't imagine having to live with what happened being the OOW, even if we know there was not a lot he could have done differently with the knowledge he had at that point in time.
The bribe scene should never have happened, I fully agree. It made Murdoch look like a man with questionable ethics. The shooting and suicide, however, I have no problems with since there are several survivor testimonies available. They could have seen/heard Murdoch do those things or, they may have mistaken him for somebody else. One thing to keep in mind is that before the bridge plunged into the sea, the area was lit as the engines were running. The light may have faded to a reddish hue, but people could still see ahead. So, I personally find it unlikely that those who claim to have seen Murdoch shoot two people, salute his officers and then shoot himself, didn't know who they saw. Most people claimed it was Murdoch or was likely Murdoch. Very few people took the name of Moody or other crew members. Hence, I don't think Cameron was doing it for the drama alone. We have to remember he is a very meticulous filmmaker. Cameron is a perfectionist and a stickler for details. He knows Titanic inside and out. I doubt "Hollywood drama" with guns was the only reason. But, if we talk about drama, then the scene would never have been as intense with Murdoch just firing warning shots and Cal just walking away to find another opportunity. Cal had an iceberg-sized ego that needed to be crushed in the narrative of the film. Murdoch throwing him the money to his face, which felt like a real slap, is a great cathartic moment for the audience. So, on that account, it works perfectly. Having said the above, I agree with the majority that the Cal bribe subplot shouldn't have involved Murdoch. Cameron did it since he was trying to have connective tissues using characters and converging subplots so that the film felt like it was stitched together well rather than scenes happening randomly without any connection with each other. I personally think the suicide wasn't a practical choice for Murdoch. First, he was a dedicated officer sworn to his duty come what may. I feel he was the most devoted and serious about his job that night. He wouldn't just do that because it was a quick death. It's the compounding guilt that forced him; 1. He blamed himself internally for failing to avoid the collision. 2. He felt that he has condemned people to die and destroyed their families and also, White Star Line's reputation. 3. His guilt became overwhelming when he accidentally shot two people. Now, he was nothing more than a broken man. He felt that he was a disgrace to his profession. He felt as if he had failed everyone. He felt as if he had failed his family. His loved ones. He felt that he could never look anyone in the eye, if he somehow survived. So, he mustered the last ounce of courage and righteousness he had left in himself. He felt that punishing himself by committing suicide, would be an honourable way to go rather than live to be called a murderer. He could not bear the thought of him or his loved ones living in ignominy for the rest of their lives. He thought that killing himself would prevent further shame and guilt. If the above scenario really occurred, then he really had no choice. He was shocked to the degree that he couldn't have helped anyone, anymore. This is my understanding of what that honourable man went through that night. I feel my eyes moisten as I type this. We can only imagine what happened, but can never really feel what he went through that night as he lowered boat after boat, saving so many women, children and men that night. I only feel a great sense of empathy and respect for Murdoch. Nothing less.
Agreed, nothing less than respect. I suppose what I meant by it being a practical thing was, if he did it I don't think it was a spur of the moment decision based only on emotion. I think perhaps it had been there in the back of his mind as he loaded boats. He had to know the likelihood of making it out alive was slim. Perhaps he'd made up his mind that he wanted to go out with a degree of certainty rather than leaving it to chance he might die in a horrible way. And then if the shooting happened as described, and someone was killed, as you said, it was a way to "atone", to make up for what had happened. His passengers didn't make it out so he ensured he didn't either. But I think if he made that choice, like everything else he did, there was reason and thought behind it, not just blind emotion in the moment. I'm still undecided if I think he did do that, it's hard to reconcile the dutiful officer doing everything he can to save people with the description of a man taking that route with the last boats still to go and people that still might be saved... Tragic all around, his story will never not be the one that really grabs me. They were *so close* to missing the iceberg.
I concur! Murdoch may have thought of it, but the shooting incident made it an inescapable reality for the man. I think that since the shooting happened all of a sudden, against his better judgement, he collapsed internally. The mental stress had been building for quite some time. Murdoch was trying to desperately hold people off but was completely taken aback when those people leaped towards the boats despite his stern warning. The shooting was more of an instinctual response and not completely in his control by that point. When it happened, the terrible realisation of what he had done, dawned on him. I feel his body started buckling. I know of people whose muscles go weak under extreme stress. He was a strong officer, still, but realised that he no longer possessed the strength to save anyone. He was completely exhausted mentally and physically. Hence he bid farewell to the world. I strongly feel that this could have happened.
Cameron’s choices didn’t bother me though in the sense that it didn’t make Murdoch look bad. I actually love the scene in the film during the panic and the shooting and then he salutes and shoots himself. It just shows how desperate everyone was and how hard it is to read a situation. Then movie Murdoch feeling terrible about it and taking his life added a sadness to the character that shows how ashamed he was. It’s a realistic moment. Not many would think clearly in that moment so it helps demonstrate what the feelings really were on that night for the audience.
I don't t think it made him look bad either (I feel he never accepted the bribe, he just literally didn't have time for Cal's crap) but plenty of people point to it as Murdoch being a "villain". I even saw one comment that he was "a creep" for being amused at Jack & Rose's smooch on the deck 😮💨 I agree about adding sadness. I remember seeing the film the first time and feeling so desperately sorry for him, thought about that scene for ages afterward.
You’re so right. He just looks speechless as cal puts the money in his pocket. He doesn’t have time to compute cal’s selfishness
Literally his face is *Error 404*- like, *Is this guy trying to give me money? I dinnae have time for this bollocks!*
Molly Brown. I don't know how close the movie portrayal is to her real life personality but Kathy Bates just absolutely nailed the role and I really enjoyed watching her every scene
Apparently the interaction in the lifeboat where she tried to get everyone to go back and rescue others happened 🥺
She did that and more!! She kept moral up on Lifeboat 6 while Quartermaster Hitchens was prophesying doom. And then when she got to the Carpathia, forget about it!! She worked tirelessly for three days to help those ill and in need after they had lost everything. Helped that she spoke 5 languages…hardly the uneducated socialite that myth leads us to believe…
There is a movie about her too
If you're referring to "The Unsinkable Molly Brown," it's pretty highly fictionalized, but still an incredibly fun movie musical :). Interestingly, a lot of the things I've read on her say she wasn't dubbed "Molly" Brown until after the sinking of the Titanic, and possibly not even until the 1930s.
[Just posted about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanic/s/8JlVnFcBGm) but she has a truly amazing real life story. There’s a great biography about her by Kristen Iversen if you are interested. Or if you don’t want to commit the time, the Unsinkable Titanic podcast and My Favorite Murder also have episodes about her.
A lot of it is close, but real life Molly did want people to like her and conformed to high society.
Her house is a museum in Denver, I got to visit it as a kid. She had a framed photo of the titanic 😂 iconic
They've also got *Olympic's* binnacle there
Colonel Gracie's book, where he goes into the account of what happened on her lifeboat, is fascinating and that section just made me absolutely adore her. Highly recommended. True boss lady.
Andrews. He is very good portrayed and he was just like that IRL. Victor Graber was a perfect actor for it.
Thomas Andrews and Margaret Brown are at the top. The Countess of Rothes was also a very interesting person as well, despite the hoity-toity depiction of her in the 1997 film. She took charge of her lifeboat, manning the tiller and rowing, as well as comforting other passengers who had lost family. She was a great philanthropist as well. Also, shout out to Lawrence Beesley for giving his account from a second-class perspective, which often gets forgotten in Titanic media. I know he wasn't in the 1997 film, but his actor was. ;)
The Countess has my vote as well, she has such a cool story
I’m doing a deep dive on her immediately. This is very interesting I love it
I had no idea she did this until recently and my impression of her rose immensely. What a fantastic lady.
It's such a shame her *Carpathia* scenes were cut or in some cases never filmed. If you look really carefully, she *is* sitting at the tiller of her lifeboat in the 1997 film, so Cameron hadn't intended for her to be just another snobby first class person.
https://preview.redd.it/9u5sismszlad1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f85348a868df7b593223dd6e6ff07fcf76bcc040
https://preview.redd.it/vcbipy9pzlad1.jpeg?width=924&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=139ad5097635f462dc9c2c1c6a24b5f6e84aca59
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I also love the Baker, but it’s the bandleader Wallace Hartley for me. Went down with his violin inscribed with a love note from his waiting fiancé.
It’s Murdoch for me, closely followed by Andrews. They both seemed like really great men even outside of their actions on Titanic
Harold Bride. Because I did the Titanic Musical and got to play him on stage, so I did tons of research on the real Harold Bride. He was a good man and saved a lot of people
First officer Murdoch.
Madeline talmage force astor i just think there was so much left out the film about her. She's a very interesting woman to read about.
Molly brown
Molly Brown 😍
Honestly I’m a fan of John Jacob Astor, I know he had such a small part in the movie but still such a great character, I could also go with Margret Brown because I feel like they got her character spot on with how she was actually during the actual disaster and I just love how well Kathy bates did such an incredible job
Here's one of the richest men in the world. The ship is going down. He politely asks if he can accompany his pregnant wife on the lifeboat, and when told no, he demurely acquiesces and sees her safely off before going down with the ship. Like, the sheer *dignity* of this man.
I almost said Benjamin Guggenheim or the strauses as for that very reason and I loved them all in the movie , but your point is 100% correct and can be applied to pretty much all of these people I mentioned , honestly knowing what happened irl, just the scene with astor in the grand staircase before the dome collapses just makes me tear up a tiny bit….
That is so heartbreaking!!!! I can only imagine the way the mother of his child had to cope with his loss omg💔
It was quite difficult- JJ's son from his first marriage was apparently a total dick to Madeleine both before and after JJ's death.
He also was so interesting, he wrote a sci-fi book if all things!
Wallace Hartley. I believe that Jonathan Evans Jones did a fine job of portraying him though he seemed older than Wallace Hartley actually was.
Thomas Andrews or Lightoller. Lightoller led an interesting life post Titanic. Not only did he survive titanic, he allegedly rammed and sank a U Boat during WW1 then spied on German naval positions during WW2 and took his private motor yacht out to pick up troops during Dunkirk
I feel like what he did in Dunkirk might hsve been trying to correct his misstep in not loading his lifeboats full enough with men back on *Titanic*. Dude transported like 130 guys on a boat rated for 20.
That's a really good point and I never thought of it like that. I suspect you may be right
“He stepped off the boat without getting his hair wet” “All he remembers was a really bad hangover the next day” lmaooo wow 😭😭😭
What's the source for the quote about Joughin having a bad hangover the next day? I was under the impression that there actually wasn't any reliable contemporary evidence that he was heavily intoxicated during the sinking. Also Joughin's testimony at the inquiry pretty clearly indicates he remembered a lot more than that
I actually agree with you I took this quote from a video and a few of others had mentioned the same thing however with more research there’s been a lot of different stories so I’m not sure what is most accurate but given a few videos said that, I found it kind of funny lol 😭🤣🫶🏽
Chief Officer Wilde I'll put in a word for Wilde since he doesn't get enough love or credit on here. I like Mark Lindsay Chapman's portrayal and Wilde actually had a lot of great moments in the film that were very accurate to real life. He assisted with the lowering of many port side boats (more than Lightoller which surprises people). I think Cameron's film is the only Titanic movie where Wilde is given his dues. In most of the other Titanic movies he's either a non-entity or badly portrayed (the less said about the 2012 miniseries the better!) Also remember that scene with Cal running up to him with the little girl asking for a place in the lifeboat with her because he's all she has in the world and Wilde allows him on? I have no doubt that scene was inspired by research Cameron did on Wilde. In real life Wilde's wife and twin sons died in childbirth which left him a widow and single parent to his remaining 4 children. It was a nice character moment that probably went over most of the audiences head.
That part was definitely for us nerds. Say what you will about MLC'S off-screen life, he did well with Wilde. That tiny "oh no" moment when he sees the little girl- it lasts all of half a second- but you see his heart break a little bit as he again thinks of his own kids. He knows Cal is full of shit but he puts the little girl's safety first and waves him through. So well done. I like that Cameron gives the audience closure about what happened to him, as well. He saved Rose not once but twice, and he gets his story wrapped up on-screen because of it.
The Strauses.
Thomas Andrews and Molly Brown by far
I Like John Phillips And Harold Bride, even though all of their scenes were cut except one I’ve always liked their story. https://preview.redd.it/6mpe364zwkad1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78f93254189fa774bf385314784df02f44e555bf
Lowe followed by Murdoch.
Benjamin Guggenheim
Molly for sure
My man, Thomas Andrews!!! ❤️❤️❤️
Wallace Hartley
Murdoooooooooooooch 💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖
William Murdoch and Thomas Andrews.
Captain
Molly brown was a cool person. I toured her home in Denver. Recommend it!
Molly Brown, I believe the portrayal of her character by Kathy Bates was excellent.
Thomas Andrews or Molly Brown!
I’d like to say Andrews, but I liked the Andrews from SOS Titanic better. So idk. I’ve always liked Lightoller.
Definitely Thomas Andrews.
Thomas andrews. Obviously!
Thomas Andrews!
I know I’m late to the party, but I want to mention Father Thomas Byles, a 2nd Class passenger. (In the film, he’s seen near the end praying the Hail, Mary and holding the hands of many people praying with him. Irl, he was out on deck praying his Evening Breviary when Titanic hit the iceberg. He quickly went down to steerage and showed many people up to the top decks due to the labyrinthine nature of the passages. He was offered twice a space in a lifeboat and turned both offers down. He was last seen hearing confessions from as many onboard during the sinking. He was considered a martyr for the faith by Pope Pius IX and his case for beatification is currently open. Btw, his final homily was on the importance of spiritual lifeboats in the form of prayer and the sacraments.
James Lancaster, who played him, has told of how the scripture chosen by Cameron was coincidentally the same one he had memorised for his own father's eulogy shortly before filming. The emotion you see from him there is completely real 🥲
That’s really cool! I have to watch it again! Love hearing all these fantastic details in the film!
You should check out Titanic Talk podcast- Alexandra Boyd, who was one of the core extras, interviews a bunch of her co-extras about their time on the film. James is one of them 😊
Thank you for the suggestion! I’ll check it out! Man it’s such an honor to be amongst fellow enthusiasts!
It's so great! She also has a documentary about her time filming; it's got some limited screenings in Canada and hopefully will get released on streaming at sone point
Murdoch, Lightoller, Lowe, Moody, Phillips and Bride!
I think Thomas Andrews and Harold Lowe would have to be my favorites
I don't know his name IRL, but the dude who fell off the stern and hit the propeller.
Margaret Brown
Molly Brown
Andrews would be my favourite just because from everything I've read, I've yet to come upon anything bad to be said for him. Guggenheim second, just for the classy way he went out. Knowing the end was near but maintained composure, helped people to the boats, dressed in his best clothes, and faced death with grace and dignity.
Definitely Margaret "Molly" Brown. What an absolute grade - A bad ass!!
Margaret Brown. Her life is fascinating and she did so much good for people before and after the Titanic.
Jack
It says no fictional characters.