This is unironically the same effect called the “king asleep in the mountain” motif. I think the Wikipedia article on it even mentions JFK and Elvis as being a modern version of the myth.
What if certain historical figures are immortal, we know about it, but we’ve had to hide them away to prevent them having an excessive influence on society? As time goes on, more and more historical figures become immortal and the place we’re hiding them becomes overpopulated. We’re not sure what to do so we start planning to hide them on another planet…
[British politician John Stonehouse faked his own death in 1974 to start a new life with his secretary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stonehouse).
He was arrested in Australia a month later when police began surveillance on him because they suspected that he was Lord Lucan. Lucan had disappeared a fortnight before Stonehouse, following the murder of his children's nanny.
Lord lucan, who murdered someone in 1974 was involved in the charge of the light brigade disaster that took place during the Crimean war of the late 1800's? Gonna need some explanation on this
I'll use any reason I can to link [The Technical Difficulties](https://youtu.be/C666j39s3wc?si=v3Oja6ON2EenU8RC). Here they are doing a show about John Stonehouse('s Wikipedia page)
Mithridates the great went wild twice in his life, everyone in his family and court assumed he's dead and assumed the throne until he's back and murdered everyone. The first time he murdered his brother and his mother, the second time his sister-wife.
I hear you. John, Paul, George, and Ringo all live on in our hearts. As long as we have their music they'll live on. Nobody can take that away from us.
Wow. Three people claimed to be Ivan the Terrible's dead 8 year old son Dmitry. Each of these impostors claimed to have miraculously escaped the assassination attempt that appeared to have claimed Dmitry's life, and, in the case of II and III, also to have escaped the assassinations that subsequently targeted I and II.
Quite similarly, [Tile Kolup](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tile_Kolup) was one of several people claiming to be Emperor Friedrich II. and by far the most successful.
[A Slave who founded the Adil Shahi dynasty in South India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Adil_Shah) claimed to be the son of Ottoman Sultan Murad II who was smuggled out by his mother to save him from Ottoman fratricide when his father died.
Spoiler alert, he was probably a Georgian.
Imagine being some random guy, waltzing into a palace, and saying “Yeah. I’m so and so’s long lost kid who went missing ~~and totally died.~~ Guess I’m in charge now.”
And instead of being immediately ran out of town, they just go, “Oh, ok. Seems legit.”
He did not make the claim before he was a king. Actually his daughter made the claim since she felt insecure when Bahamani princesses were making snide remarks about her. Bahamani Dynasty was more ancient and had a bigger empire in the past and during that time they were reduced to nominal inchrage of Deccan but all governors were independent. Bahamani princesses were jealous of a daughter of a slave have more importance at court than emperor daughters.
Fun fact: Some people used this legend to (briefly) pass themselves off as being the recently-returned Nero only to be put to death after getting outed as fakes.
Why on EARTH would anyone try and pass themselves off as Nero? He was apocalyptically unpopular after he, you know, lost his freaking mind. Plus, Vespasian would have put them to death real or fake as they would have been a threat to his rule.
Just seems like a lose lose lose on every side.
Short answer: critical historiography
Long answer: Depictions of Nero as an insane tyrant are the result of contemporary politically-motivated character assassination. Nero was immensely popular during his rule. The Pseudo-Neros and the subsequent “Nero Redivivus” legend attempted to capitalize on how well-beloved he was by the Plebians to fuel popular revolts.
The idea that he would return was common for centuries after his death, casting him as a sort of precursor to Britain’s King Arthur mythos.
It’s also notable that at least two of the Pseudo-Neros were supported by the Parthians.
Nero near his end of his reign was massively unpopular though, to the point that his death caused a monetary crisis to happen shortly afterwards as people didn't want to use money with his face on it. At least that is what my professor for Roman numismatics in university taught me.
It’s a case of diverging opinions between elites - who were influential in shaping historical narrative, numismatics and portraiture - and the commoners - who were mostly consigned to the subaltern.
There was also a bit of an east/west divide involved.
He was hated in the West but loved in the East. The Greeks loved the idea of a divine king who was a maestro musician. There are stories of his temples still being honoured in the East a long time after his death.
Unless you were a Christian in the city of Rome, or an attractive young man, chances were that Nero's escapades would not have affected you at all. The empire kept chugging along despite Nero's negligence mostly because it was decentralized by modern standards.
Sure. For all his many, many faults, Nero was more or less beloved by the regular folk. It’s the Senate and the military that hated him and removed him from office.
Nero was an entertainer at heart. He just wanted to be the centre of attention, bust out his lyre and recite poetry. The common folk ate this up, they absolutely loved seeing their emperor make a spectacle of himself. The aristocracy and military, however, were appalled.
Didn't conservative Romans hate him for being 'feminine' and 'Greek' because he played an instrument? You could be a good Roman and fuck boys but singing and playing the lyre made you 'gay' (in the early 2000s middle school sense)
Yeah, that was part of it - it was so far beneath the dignity of someone of his status that it was an embarrassment. It would be like if a Modern head of state decided to become a stripper while in office.
The other part was he was completely disinterested in running an administration. Imagine some important governor or official coming in to discuss some tax policy or infrastructure project, and then getting told to "Shut up and listen to my awesome new lyre composition." And then he could be removed from his post so that Nero's drinking buddy could have a good job and an excuse to hang out with Nero more.
> The other part was he was completely disinterested in running an administration. Imagine some important governor or official coming in to discuss some tax policy or infrastructure project, and then getting told to "Shut up and listen to my awesome new lyre composition." And then he could be removed from his post so that Nero's drinking buddy could have a good job and an excuse to hang out with Nero more.
We've likely had some variation of this with the Trump administration tbh.
Sort of, but it was more of a social faux pas that he behaved like an actor/entertainer than it was considered "feminine" or sexually deviant. The Romans viewed actors as lower than prostitutes, it would be even more extreme than a modern president/prime minister willingly producing and starring in obscene fetish porn from a shock value and cultural panic standpoint.
Actors, actresses and other entertainers were labeled as inflames in Roman society. They lacked alot of the rights of common Romans. Others inflames were Prostitutes, Gladiators or those who had been declared such as judicial punishment.
They were viewed as lesser, at least in part, because they put their bodies on display to entertain. A real Roman citizen was expected to instead value his privacy. Most actors and actresses were also slaves or freed slaves, so low class.
When Nero, who was supposed to be the upmost elite, was instead doing things that should make a person infamis (singular for infames,) this disgusted the Roman elite. But Nero had also killed his mother (she deserved it honestly) and spent the treasury to buy the people's love and build himself a palace, so they had other reasons to hate him as well.
That said, most of what you here of Nero was propoganda. Some other stuff, such as his burning Christians to light his parties, is still up to scholarly debate and thus not 100% confirmable.
A better historical comparison for looking down on someone for being feminin is the roll a Roman male played in sex. A Roman who had sex with a woman or a male/boy of lower class was expected to be the dominant partner and the one who penetrates. If it was revealed that the roles were reversed, he would be labeled a pervert.
Huh, I didn't study Roman history much, but from whatever little snippets that I read it was that Nero was mostly hated. Didn't know it was the nobility that despised him, I just assumed that it was universal.
Now Fate/Extra and FGO's portrayal of Nero makes sense, it always felt a bit weird to me before with that meager knowledge I had of him.
Nero was subject to one of the most successful smeer campaigns in history. Most of what your hear of Nero was written by his enemies or long after his death.
He still wasn't a great Emperor, but the people loved him. (He blew the treasury in part to buy their love.) Towards the end of his reign this may have changed a bit in Rome, but not as much throughout the empire. One of Nero's finest moments was in fact the fire in Rome. He wasn't even in the city to start it as is commonly believed, but he did open up his palace to common Romans who lost their homes.
After Nero Rome was a mess. 3 different rulers, constant civil war and 8 months under a brutal dictator whose troops raped and pillaged common Romans in Rome. Vespasian eventually settled things a touch less than 2 years later and was a pretty good emperor. But with these events in mind, coupled with the previous view of Nero as a man of the people, it makes sense that a rumor of his returning as a saviour was started.
And to add, it would've been the return of "The Caesars" in a very real sense. The Julio-Claudian line was quite literally considered divine. I'm sure many people longed for the guidance of Augustus' heirs to return.
Ironically Nero's biggest PR win was squandered when he requisitioned a massive burned out area of Rome to build his sweet new palace. The remains of the Gold Palace can still be seen, though most of the estate was demolished to build the Colosseum.
Hated emperors didn't last much unless they were feared a lot. Nero was a complex figure, creative, innovator. I don't think the general public hated him, at worst they ridiculed him when he went too far. And as an emperor jobwise he was fine, even good. The fire didn't have anything to do with him. But people were outraged by the palace he build after that.
The book of revelation talks about the beast and the beast has a number to identify it. In Hebrew, letters also count for numbers or gematria. Sometimes a sum of numbers was used to identify a name like bob: (b)2+(o)15+(b)2=19=Bob. The number in revelation is not six six six but six hundred and sixty six ( or 616 in the earlier manuscripts). Nero’s name in Latin is Nero Kaiser, transliterated into Hebrew and added up equal to 616. Nero in Greek is neron keiser transliterated to Hebrew and added up is 666.
Check out data over dogma podcast episode “mark of the best” if you want more.
Many biblical scholars believe this is what the 666 in Revelations refers to. This is because Nero's name in Greek was Neron Kaisar, which in Hebrew writing is spelled Nrwn Qsr. In Hebrew numerals Nrwn Qsr is counted as:
N=50
R=200
W=6
N=50
Q=100
S=60
R=200
Which all equals to 666. This is also explains why we have a version of Revelations that marks the number of the beast as 616. Whoever made that copy probably decided to drop the second N from Nrwn to make it more like Nero's Latin name, thereby subtracting 50 from 666, ending up with 616.
They didn't choose 616 out of a hat when they named the main Marvel universe. Writers generally always know where they get concepts from and it is always either intentional or aware (as much as people hate their high school English teachers for bringing this up)
This is a great specific example of a larger point, namely that Revelation (and the Bible in general) was written by someone living at the time for an audience living at the time. For two thousand years, people have assumed that it's all about them, that the visions and prophecies it contains relate to their own times, that the end of the world is just around the corner. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus was supposed to come back within the lifetimes of those listening to him, Nero was supposed to come back soon, etc., etc. It wasn't looking ahead thousands of years. You needed to repent *now*, because shit was about to go *down.*
Yeah it’s kinda funny that Jesus himself was probably an anti-Roman occupation of Judea end times preacher (thinking that God would come to free Israel from Roman bondage), got killed, and a lot of the early movement (Paul, Revelations), had similar vibes - God is coming back **soon**, repent, don’t have kids, don’t get married if you can manage it - all of this stuff is irrelevant because it’s all going to change ASAP.
Then it spreads among the gentiles, gradually becomes Romanized after a few generations, and after 3 centuries is adopted by the Romans themselves, and people calling themselves Caesar or some variant proceed to be Christians, an evolution of this initial anti-Roman message, for the next two thousand years.
The real historical Jesus would be spinning in his grave, I think
At the time I didn’t realize how off it was, he had me actually thinking Reagan was the best president lmao. Him and his identical twin ended up retiring from my school district after working there for like 35 years. He was pretty well respected but definitely brought a right wing agenda to the classroom
My son is very into Clifford books and Clifford both has a best friend who leads their pack of friends named Nero, as well as a brother named Nero. This is only tangentially related, but it bothers me.
Not a unique case, either. In the year 1000, Norwegian king Olav Tryggvason died in a sea battle. His body was never found. Among ordinary people there were rumors that he had been rescued and taken to shore (perhaps by angels) and decided to either enter a monastery or go on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. There were claims that he had been sighted in Jerusalem for several decades after his death.
I suspect most countries that are old enough have a story like this.
The funniest part is how the belief persisted into the 5th century. That’s like believing Hitler is still living in Argentina today. This is why men are all constantly thinking about the Romans: they’re just like us and it’s fascinating.
> That’s like believing Hitler is still living in Argentina today
Considering the amount of time, that's more like thinking King James is still alive and hanging out in Plymouth and ready to drop a new Bible.
Well, I mean, back then disappearing would have been substantially easier than it would be today.
Most citizens would have only seen Nero on currency or statues. Rich folk could just take their money and move somewhere else and no one would be the wiser.
Nero was quite popular with the Roman populace.
His modern reputation is a classic lesson on historiography and the importance of sources.
Nero, much like Domitian later, really centralized power and did not respect Republican institutions such as the Senate. As a result the wealthy senatorial class despised them both.
And the writers that followed were all from the wealthy senatorial class. Hence these two get demonized.
Also important to note that they were bothe the last Emperors of their respective dinasties. Nero was the last Julio-Claudian, being replaced by Vespasian of the Flavians, and Domitian was the last Flavian. It pays to demonize the prrevious rulers to earn points with the current regime.
Caligula was just insane though.
We needed a few people as ambassadors for the T̷̡̧̨͓͈̰͉̘̩̫̯͙͓̮̟̞̼͎̱͈͍͖͚͈͎̖̠͚͔̝̰̥͙̙͔͖͍̪̫̼͓̞̀̾̊͜͝ͅȩ̸̧̡̧̢̯̖̙̳̤̩̟̺͉̤͙̮̱͔͚͍̯̮̞̪̥͈̣̩̰̦̩͔̩̘̣̬͕̹̼̗͖̙̥̫̰͖̗̘̪͓͇̭͖̈́̈́͋͊̓̈̕͝ͅͅͅm̸̧̧̧͇̬͕̳̹̜͓̤̥̮̠̯̫̝͖̳̦̥͔̺̖͓̺̣̞̖͈͚̗͙̖̗̣̦̗̙̩̤̣̰̞̪͓̙͔̀̂̽͐͗́̐̓̏͆̍̇̑̏́͗̌̉̍̈́̓̊̚͘͜͜͝͝͠͠͝p̵̢̢̨̢̡̛͕̼̼̺͚͓͙͙̝̞̠̥̣̭̝̟͎̠̦͍͔̺͍̰̜̪͔̳̖̫̩̹͈̣̩̘̪͔̲̮̜̳̬̩͕̩̎͑̎͛͐͌̿͗̄̿̈́̐̍̽̎̐̍̈́̿̈́̂͗̈̽̋̇̓͋̉̀́̿͒̆̊̍̒̐͒̾͑̄̚̕͝͝͝ͅͅơ̵̡̧̨̧̧̱̱͚̬͈̹̗̲̙͈̥̜̭̰͓̜͚̱͍̼̥͇̝͙̘̖̭̞̼̘͉̭̭̹̰͙̬̤͜͜ͅŗ̵̡̧̧̨̧̢̡̛̫̳͚̲̱͔͇͖̺̪̲͇̘͔̙̞̱̞̻̙̩̻͈̣͖͈̙͑̀̈̏͗͆͒̉̉̽͆̽̐̿̑̋͑̀̏̊̒̀̐̑̐̃̀̿̋̋͛̆͗͂̍͘̚͝͝͝a̶̛̳̪̦͒̔̉͂̊͊̑͛͑̈́̏̀̒̑́̇̄̇̄̑͂̔͐̅̿͛̈́̓̑̀̽̍̍̆͌̒̉̓͗̉̓̑̑̍̃͐̊͛͘̚͘̕͝͝͠͝͝͠͠͝ͅl̷̨̡̧̛̼̠̭͔̭͓̥̗͙̺̤̗̲̤̤̭̠̟̹̤͕͎̠̟͎̞͚̓͗͂̔̓̐͑́̊̓̀̚͜͝ͅ ̷̡̨̡̨̛̛̛͍̜͉̱̞̪͙̳͇̻̻̹̦̹̲̥̘̲̮͚̺̝̰̙̱̜̝̋̀̍̉̉̀̈́̓̓̉̂̈́̈́͆̀̎̽́͊̌̄̾̃̒̄͋͐̇̏̾̈́̄̚͜͠͝͝b̶̨̰̖͈̲̖̟̰͍͎͔͇͑̿̀̾͋̓̍̃̓̇͆̐͌̏̅̈́̈̓͠͠͝ͅẽ̵̛͙̖̱̪̘͙̻̗̦̼͎̺̅͒̀̇̉̀̅́̈́͗̔̋̎̽͑͌̐̍̆̓̃̍͗̌͆̀̚̕͝ͅị̵̢̡̡̨̢̡̳̱̭̻̞̙̺͍͙͎͇̼̝̝̻̫̯̟͓̞̮͖̦̘͎̗̳̺͕̟̝̰̜͎̮͈͇͚̮̀̅̈́̈̀͊͂̀̊́̓̋͂̽͜͜͜͜͜͝ͅn̷̡͇̗̗̟͎̩̬̳̱̈̋̈́͠g̸̨̡̡̢̨̛̞̬̤̫̻̰̠̰̯̹͎̻̘͍̥͚̱͎̫̦̯̳͔̤͕̝͎̭̺̺̖͉͎͍̗̦͇̳̯̹̫̼͇̜̮̙̹̤͈͓̼͕͙̎̅̌̈́̂͋͛̾̋̀͒͊̊̔̂̀̊̾͊͆̑̓̍͒̉̀͜͝͝͝s̸̢̡̡̢̹̦̥͕̮̗̭͈̙̠͕̪͕̖̪͖͚̯͓̻̤̱̳̘͇̲̘̺̘̯̦̯̗͔͍͑̒̈̑̃̿̍͑̚͜͜ͅ so we borrowed a couple noteworthy individuals like him. They still visit their home time but have to be on the DL.
Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians, a notable dynasty starting with perhaps the most famous, Augustus Caesar. I can understand there being some confusion when Nero died and the successor was not clear.
>"A great king will flee from Italy like a runaway slave unseen and unheard over the channel of the Euphrates, when he dares to incur a maternal curse for repulsive murder and many other things, confidently, with wicked hand. When he runs away, beyond the Parthian land, many will bloody the ground for the throne of Rome. A leader of Rome will come to Syria who will burn the Temple of Jerusalem with fire, at the same time slaughter many men. [...] Then the strife of war being aroused will come to the west, and the fugitive from Rome will also come, brandishing a great spear, having crossed the Euphrates with many myriads [...] Great wealth will come to Asia, which Rome itself once plundered and deposited in her house of many possessions" -- *Sibylline Oracles*, 4.119-146 (written in the late first century CE)
We knew it, folks, didn't we? When that no-good Senate approved Emperor Galba - it was rigged! It was totally crooked. Everyone loved Nero! Look, ask anyone, Nero had the highest approval rating of all time! Maybe better than Caesar, but I don't say that, but people say that, it's true! But maybe Caesar, he was good too. But it was rigged, by the never-Nero senate.
SAD!
And that conspiracy is fucking us over to this date, since the Book of Revelations was inspired by it and it is motivating the christofascists that are waiting for the Rapture.
Nero, Tupac, Elvis, and Fidel Castro all are chilling in Cuba
Well now I can’t tell if you just forgot JFK Jr. or if his being in Cuba would make it weird.
Just his brain
Wrong JFK
Jr...
Who’s got the brain of JFK and what does it mean to us now?
The whole world will be different soon
Parts of it at least. Think Jackie kept a couple.
Ooof.
What about Andy Kaufman?
He’s there, goofing on Elvis
"Hey baby, are you having fun ?"
Don’t forget DB Cooper
Nah, DB Cooper changed his name to Tommy Wiseau and produced the movie "The Room".
Ha ha ha what a story Mark
Hope I'm still alive to find out who/what Tommy Wiseau really is.
Nah, I’m right here.
You crazy SOB. YOU DID IT!!
All that time, I'll be damned!😯
Argentina.. they took a Submarine… oh wait that was another group of individuals
With Jim Morrison
Mr. Nero Risin'
Perfotming a duet of Light My Fire.
Everyone acting like we’re done with Trump whenever he goes and he’s going to be right at the top of this list.
Don’t forget MJ
I read that as nemo at first and was very very confused,
And Harold Holt
Adolf, Saddam and Osama are there as well
Except Paul McCartney, for some reason he went touring and made music after his passing
My mom is convinced Tupac went into hiding in Jamaica
Don't forget Walt Disney
Crazy blunt rotation
They have a band. Nero plays fiddle, Castro on classical guitar, Elvis lead guitar and vocals, Tupac percussion and vocals.
This is unironically the same effect called the “king asleep in the mountain” motif. I think the Wikipedia article on it even mentions JFK and Elvis as being a modern version of the myth.
I'm from georgia and some people think our first president is also alive so put Zviad Gamsakhurdia there.
Elvis and Tupac are alive. I have seen them in Cuba Castro is definitely dead Hitler definitely is still alive in argentina
Elvis actually has a concert in London coming up in December (not a joke).
What if certain historical figures are immortal, we know about it, but we’ve had to hide them away to prevent them having an excessive influence on society? As time goes on, more and more historical figures become immortal and the place we’re hiding them becomes overpopulated. We’re not sure what to do so we start planning to hide them on another planet…
Epstein and P Diddy as well
Tupac is still in WitSec in Europe. Nero is just mythical. Elvis committed sue i cide on the toilet. Fidel was executed.
was ever someone actually secretly alive? i think one persian king wink wink - if i remember correctly.
[British politician John Stonehouse faked his own death in 1974 to start a new life with his secretary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stonehouse). He was arrested in Australia a month later when police began surveillance on him because they suspected that he was Lord Lucan. Lucan had disappeared a fortnight before Stonehouse, following the murder of his children's nanny.
“We know you faked your death…” “Alright, alright, you got me!” “And we know you killed your children’s nanny Lucan!” “Wait, what?”
"On his arrest, the police instructed him to pull down his trousers in an attempt to establish whether or not he was Lord Lucan" 💀
That's not the most embarrassing thing related to a Lord Lucan. One of them was directly involved in the Charge of the Light Brigade disaster.
Lord lucan, who murdered someone in 1974 was involved in the charge of the light brigade disaster that took place during the Crimean war of the late 1800's? Gonna need some explanation on this
He said “a lord Lucan” not that it was the same guy
Reading comprehension isn't great here on Reddit
[удалено]
Good thing that comment wasn’t on your test, I guess
The murderer and houdini act Lord Lucan was the direct descendant of the latter.
Clickbait, Lucan had a large scar on his thigh.
A huge, throbbing scar on his thigh.
Weeping gash.
This just took me down a Lord Lucan rabbit hole-y shit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bingham,_7th_Earl_of_Lucan
“He was cremated in Bassett Green, Southampton, on 22 April 1988.” better double check
The fun thing about being cremated is that there isnt much to check
I love the plot twist that he was also a spy for the Czech government.
we got the real deal guys!
I'll use any reason I can to link [The Technical Difficulties](https://youtu.be/C666j39s3wc?si=v3Oja6ON2EenU8RC). Here they are doing a show about John Stonehouse('s Wikipedia page)
Wait so he faked his death and the police investigated him but only because they thought he was someone else?
well you're probably not going to read about anyone who faked their death and died of old age in a cabin in the forest.
there was also the guy who faked his death in a canoe accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Darwin_disappearance_case
Mithridates the great went wild twice in his life, everyone in his family and court assumed he's dead and assumed the throne until he's back and murdered everyone. The first time he murdered his brother and his mother, the second time his sister-wife.
so this is where Rimworld gets it
He also did a few genocides, and is said to have mastered poison and herbology, so I believe you're on to something
I'll go out on a limb and say Paul McCartney.
RIngo too. It sounds crazy AF but the conductor from Thomas the Tank Engine looked and sounded exactly like him.
Ringos still alive
I hear you. John, Paul, George, and Ringo all live on in our hearts. As long as we have their music they'll live on. Nobody can take that away from us.
Nice try
Tsar Alexander I has been a strong possibility.
maybe they're all secretly alive, we just haven't found out yet
Well he's probably dead now
That's what they want you to think!
Prove it
These folks never show the receipts.
Read up on the False Dimitris (yes, plural, there were three of them) and get prepared to have your mind blown.
Wow. Three people claimed to be Ivan the Terrible's dead 8 year old son Dmitry. Each of these impostors claimed to have miraculously escaped the assassination attempt that appeared to have claimed Dmitry's life, and, in the case of II and III, also to have escaped the assassinations that subsequently targeted I and II.
Quite similarly, [Tile Kolup](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tile_Kolup) was one of several people claiming to be Emperor Friedrich II. and by far the most successful.
[A Slave who founded the Adil Shahi dynasty in South India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Adil_Shah) claimed to be the son of Ottoman Sultan Murad II who was smuggled out by his mother to save him from Ottoman fratricide when his father died. Spoiler alert, he was probably a Georgian.
Imagine being some random guy, waltzing into a palace, and saying “Yeah. I’m so and so’s long lost kid who went missing ~~and totally died.~~ Guess I’m in charge now.” And instead of being immediately ran out of town, they just go, “Oh, ok. Seems legit.”
He did not make the claim before he was a king. Actually his daughter made the claim since she felt insecure when Bahamani princesses were making snide remarks about her. Bahamani Dynasty was more ancient and had a bigger empire in the past and during that time they were reduced to nominal inchrage of Deccan but all governors were independent. Bahamani princesses were jealous of a daughter of a slave have more importance at court than emperor daughters.
> False Dmitry IV, active 1611–1612 (some argue that False Dmitry IV is just False Dmitry III due to bad record keeping)
False Dmitry V would be a decent band name
False Dmitry is the band name and V is the debut album
They should open for The Decemberists.
The False Demitry Five
Even that's probably rookie numbers compared to the fake Anastasias.
You know that shit would've been far more wild if it had happened a century or 2 earlier before film.
Fun fact: Some people used this legend to (briefly) pass themselves off as being the recently-returned Nero only to be put to death after getting outed as fakes.
Why on EARTH would anyone try and pass themselves off as Nero? He was apocalyptically unpopular after he, you know, lost his freaking mind. Plus, Vespasian would have put them to death real or fake as they would have been a threat to his rule. Just seems like a lose lose lose on every side.
Short answer: critical historiography Long answer: Depictions of Nero as an insane tyrant are the result of contemporary politically-motivated character assassination. Nero was immensely popular during his rule. The Pseudo-Neros and the subsequent “Nero Redivivus” legend attempted to capitalize on how well-beloved he was by the Plebians to fuel popular revolts. The idea that he would return was common for centuries after his death, casting him as a sort of precursor to Britain’s King Arthur mythos. It’s also notable that at least two of the Pseudo-Neros were supported by the Parthians.
Very interesting
Nero near his end of his reign was massively unpopular though, to the point that his death caused a monetary crisis to happen shortly afterwards as people didn't want to use money with his face on it. At least that is what my professor for Roman numismatics in university taught me.
It’s a case of diverging opinions between elites - who were influential in shaping historical narrative, numismatics and portraiture - and the commoners - who were mostly consigned to the subaltern. There was also a bit of an east/west divide involved.
He was hated in the West but loved in the East. The Greeks loved the idea of a divine king who was a maestro musician. There are stories of his temples still being honoured in the East a long time after his death.
Nero was insanely popular with the common folks. Unfortunately for them they aren't the ones who write the history books
Suicide by Nero
Well it was the year 68. They didn't have internet. Nero was simply the ruler of Roman empire to most people.
Unless you were a Christian in the city of Rome, or an attractive young man, chances were that Nero's escapades would not have affected you at all. The empire kept chugging along despite Nero's negligence mostly because it was decentralized by modern standards.
Obvious conspiracy theory somehow takes how and leads to grifting. People haven't changed changed in thousands of years.
and approximately 1900 years later he started a successful music career before going back to his planet
And created a cd burning software
120%
I guess he’s done Roman.
Sure. For all his many, many faults, Nero was more or less beloved by the regular folk. It’s the Senate and the military that hated him and removed him from office. Nero was an entertainer at heart. He just wanted to be the centre of attention, bust out his lyre and recite poetry. The common folk ate this up, they absolutely loved seeing their emperor make a spectacle of himself. The aristocracy and military, however, were appalled.
Didn't conservative Romans hate him for being 'feminine' and 'Greek' because he played an instrument? You could be a good Roman and fuck boys but singing and playing the lyre made you 'gay' (in the early 2000s middle school sense)
Yeah, that was part of it - it was so far beneath the dignity of someone of his status that it was an embarrassment. It would be like if a Modern head of state decided to become a stripper while in office. The other part was he was completely disinterested in running an administration. Imagine some important governor or official coming in to discuss some tax policy or infrastructure project, and then getting told to "Shut up and listen to my awesome new lyre composition." And then he could be removed from his post so that Nero's drinking buddy could have a good job and an excuse to hang out with Nero more.
> The other part was he was completely disinterested in running an administration. Imagine some important governor or official coming in to discuss some tax policy or infrastructure project, and then getting told to "Shut up and listen to my awesome new lyre composition." And then he could be removed from his post so that Nero's drinking buddy could have a good job and an excuse to hang out with Nero more. We've likely had some variation of this with the Trump administration tbh.
Sort of, but it was more of a social faux pas that he behaved like an actor/entertainer than it was considered "feminine" or sexually deviant. The Romans viewed actors as lower than prostitutes, it would be even more extreme than a modern president/prime minister willingly producing and starring in obscene fetish porn from a shock value and cultural panic standpoint.
Actors, actresses and other entertainers were labeled as inflames in Roman society. They lacked alot of the rights of common Romans. Others inflames were Prostitutes, Gladiators or those who had been declared such as judicial punishment. They were viewed as lesser, at least in part, because they put their bodies on display to entertain. A real Roman citizen was expected to instead value his privacy. Most actors and actresses were also slaves or freed slaves, so low class. When Nero, who was supposed to be the upmost elite, was instead doing things that should make a person infamis (singular for infames,) this disgusted the Roman elite. But Nero had also killed his mother (she deserved it honestly) and spent the treasury to buy the people's love and build himself a palace, so they had other reasons to hate him as well. That said, most of what you here of Nero was propoganda. Some other stuff, such as his burning Christians to light his parties, is still up to scholarly debate and thus not 100% confirmable. A better historical comparison for looking down on someone for being feminin is the roll a Roman male played in sex. A Roman who had sex with a woman or a male/boy of lower class was expected to be the dominant partner and the one who penetrates. If it was revealed that the roles were reversed, he would be labeled a pervert.
Huh, I didn't study Roman history much, but from whatever little snippets that I read it was that Nero was mostly hated. Didn't know it was the nobility that despised him, I just assumed that it was universal. Now Fate/Extra and FGO's portrayal of Nero makes sense, it always felt a bit weird to me before with that meager knowledge I had of him.
Nero was subject to one of the most successful smeer campaigns in history. Most of what your hear of Nero was written by his enemies or long after his death. He still wasn't a great Emperor, but the people loved him. (He blew the treasury in part to buy their love.) Towards the end of his reign this may have changed a bit in Rome, but not as much throughout the empire. One of Nero's finest moments was in fact the fire in Rome. He wasn't even in the city to start it as is commonly believed, but he did open up his palace to common Romans who lost their homes. After Nero Rome was a mess. 3 different rulers, constant civil war and 8 months under a brutal dictator whose troops raped and pillaged common Romans in Rome. Vespasian eventually settled things a touch less than 2 years later and was a pretty good emperor. But with these events in mind, coupled with the previous view of Nero as a man of the people, it makes sense that a rumor of his returning as a saviour was started.
And to add, it would've been the return of "The Caesars" in a very real sense. The Julio-Claudian line was quite literally considered divine. I'm sure many people longed for the guidance of Augustus' heirs to return.
Ironically Nero's biggest PR win was squandered when he requisitioned a massive burned out area of Rome to build his sweet new palace. The remains of the Gold Palace can still be seen, though most of the estate was demolished to build the Colosseum.
Hated emperors didn't last much unless they were feared a lot. Nero was a complex figure, creative, innovator. I don't think the general public hated him, at worst they ridiculed him when he went too far. And as an emperor jobwise he was fine, even good. The fire didn't have anything to do with him. But people were outraged by the palace he build after that.
Look at how many people love Trump despite him being a shitbag, same thing with Nero.
It's actually thought by some scholars that references in Revelation to the antichrist coming back are references to this conspiracy theory and Nero
The 616-666 dichotomy has me convinced that this is correct.
What's the significance with thise numbers?
The book of revelation talks about the beast and the beast has a number to identify it. In Hebrew, letters also count for numbers or gematria. Sometimes a sum of numbers was used to identify a name like bob: (b)2+(o)15+(b)2=19=Bob. The number in revelation is not six six six but six hundred and sixty six ( or 616 in the earlier manuscripts). Nero’s name in Latin is Nero Kaiser, transliterated into Hebrew and added up equal to 616. Nero in Greek is neron keiser transliterated to Hebrew and added up is 666. Check out data over dogma podcast episode “mark of the best” if you want more.
Nero Caesar. The Kaiser was the German emperor
And yet, based on the current best understanding of Classical Latin pronunciation, the titles were pronounced the same.
Hail unto Caesar!
Actually it was Νέρων Καῖσαρ (the NT was written in Greek).
*616 iirc.
Marvel Comics is satanic confirmed /s
> by some scholars You’re underselling it. This is easily the consensus. There really aren’t any other serious theories.
Yeah. The beast with seven heads (Rome) has a head that dies and then lives again (Nero) is how that has been interpreted
Many biblical scholars believe this is what the 666 in Revelations refers to. This is because Nero's name in Greek was Neron Kaisar, which in Hebrew writing is spelled Nrwn Qsr. In Hebrew numerals Nrwn Qsr is counted as: N=50 R=200 W=6 N=50 Q=100 S=60 R=200 Which all equals to 666. This is also explains why we have a version of Revelations that marks the number of the beast as 616. Whoever made that copy probably decided to drop the second N from Nrwn to make it more like Nero's Latin name, thereby subtracting 50 from 666, ending up with 616.
So the Anti-Christ lives on the main Marvel Earth? Earth-616?
Yes. [Yes he does](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Daimon_Hellstrom_(Earth-616)).
Marital status: "Divorced" lol
He was married to my favourite character, Hellcat
They didn't choose 616 out of a hat when they named the main Marvel universe. Writers generally always know where they get concepts from and it is always either intentional or aware (as much as people hate their high school English teachers for bringing this up)
This is a great specific example of a larger point, namely that Revelation (and the Bible in general) was written by someone living at the time for an audience living at the time. For two thousand years, people have assumed that it's all about them, that the visions and prophecies it contains relate to their own times, that the end of the world is just around the corner. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus was supposed to come back within the lifetimes of those listening to him, Nero was supposed to come back soon, etc., etc. It wasn't looking ahead thousands of years. You needed to repent *now*, because shit was about to go *down.*
Yeah it’s kinda funny that Jesus himself was probably an anti-Roman occupation of Judea end times preacher (thinking that God would come to free Israel from Roman bondage), got killed, and a lot of the early movement (Paul, Revelations), had similar vibes - God is coming back **soon**, repent, don’t have kids, don’t get married if you can manage it - all of this stuff is irrelevant because it’s all going to change ASAP. Then it spreads among the gentiles, gradually becomes Romanized after a few generations, and after 3 centuries is adopted by the Romans themselves, and people calling themselves Caesar or some variant proceed to be Christians, an evolution of this initial anti-Roman message, for the next two thousand years. The real historical Jesus would be spinning in his grave, I think
I was told 666 represented Ronald Wilson Reagan.
Legit had a teacher take a whole class to talk about how Obama was the Antichrist in middle school
We might’ve had the same middle school history teacher lol. Mine also taught us how Reagan was the best president all throughout the year
jesus, i never had these type of teachers. was it as awkward as i imagine or mostly "teacher forgot their meds again, free class yay"?
At the time I didn’t realize how off it was, he had me actually thinking Reagan was the best president lmao. Him and his identical twin ended up retiring from my school district after working there for like 35 years. He was pretty well respected but definitely brought a right wing agenda to the classroom
Hey, there's nothing that says both things can't be true.
How many times I tole you, better not dream of telling white people the truth?
Scholars now believe his name translates to Keyser Soze.... coincidence??? I think not!!!
[удалено]
Who knew that times of severe political struggles would trigger false pretenders? Water is wet.
My son is very into Clifford books and Clifford both has a best friend who leads their pack of friends named Nero, as well as a brother named Nero. This is only tangentially related, but it bothers me.
[удалено]
No your thinking about FDR that’s why he was secretly in a wheel chair
If you go on Wiki and start at Augustus and click "Successor" till you reach the end, you will land on the current president of France
Almost like humans have always been crackpots.
Maybe he’s in Argentina
Senior Hilter
Not a unique case, either. In the year 1000, Norwegian king Olav Tryggvason died in a sea battle. His body was never found. Among ordinary people there were rumors that he had been rescued and taken to shore (perhaps by angels) and decided to either enter a monastery or go on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. There were claims that he had been sighted in Jerusalem for several decades after his death. I suspect most countries that are old enough have a story like this.
I swear he was drinking a beer with elvis at the bar last week
I learned from TikTok that George Floyd and Jeffery Epstein were alive and partying in Tel Aviv. It's gonna be hard to top that one
The funniest part is how the belief persisted into the 5th century. That’s like believing Hitler is still living in Argentina today. This is why men are all constantly thinking about the Romans: they’re just like us and it’s fascinating.
> That’s like believing Hitler is still living in Argentina today Considering the amount of time, that's more like thinking King James is still alive and hanging out in Plymouth and ready to drop a new Bible.
“Drop a new Bible” that made me laugh 😂
He’s about to appear at Coachella 2024
He’ll be playing along with Sublime without Rome
they made a movie about it, called Finding Nero
And a game about him working with modern technology, called Nero Burning ROM.
Well, I mean, back then disappearing would have been substantially easier than it would be today. Most citizens would have only seen Nero on currency or statues. Rich folk could just take their money and move somewhere else and no one would be the wiser.
He just wanted to continue to get drunk with the boys and not worry about fires.
Nero was quite popular with the Roman populace. His modern reputation is a classic lesson on historiography and the importance of sources. Nero, much like Domitian later, really centralized power and did not respect Republican institutions such as the Senate. As a result the wealthy senatorial class despised them both. And the writers that followed were all from the wealthy senatorial class. Hence these two get demonized. Also important to note that they were bothe the last Emperors of their respective dinasties. Nero was the last Julio-Claudian, being replaced by Vespasian of the Flavians, and Domitian was the last Flavian. It pays to demonize the prrevious rulers to earn points with the current regime. Caligula was just insane though.
Human nature be human naturing
He was alive and well in the 2000s burning CD's
Does it help that we’ve always had the massively stupid among us? Yes and no.
But he was dead. Dead as a doornail.. 💀
This must be distinctly understood…
We needed a few people as ambassadors for the T̷̡̧̨͓͈̰͉̘̩̫̯͙͓̮̟̞̼͎̱͈͍͖͚͈͎̖̠͚͔̝̰̥͙̙͔͖͍̪̫̼͓̞̀̾̊͜͝ͅȩ̸̧̡̧̢̯̖̙̳̤̩̟̺͉̤͙̮̱͔͚͍̯̮̞̪̥͈̣̩̰̦̩͔̩̘̣̬͕̹̼̗͖̙̥̫̰͖̗̘̪͓͇̭͖̈́̈́͋͊̓̈̕͝ͅͅͅm̸̧̧̧͇̬͕̳̹̜͓̤̥̮̠̯̫̝͖̳̦̥͔̺̖͓̺̣̞̖͈͚̗͙̖̗̣̦̗̙̩̤̣̰̞̪͓̙͔̀̂̽͐͗́̐̓̏͆̍̇̑̏́͗̌̉̍̈́̓̊̚͘͜͜͝͝͠͠͝p̵̢̢̨̢̡̛͕̼̼̺͚͓͙͙̝̞̠̥̣̭̝̟͎̠̦͍͔̺͍̰̜̪͔̳̖̫̩̹͈̣̩̘̪͔̲̮̜̳̬̩͕̩̎͑̎͛͐͌̿͗̄̿̈́̐̍̽̎̐̍̈́̿̈́̂͗̈̽̋̇̓͋̉̀́̿͒̆̊̍̒̐͒̾͑̄̚̕͝͝͝ͅͅơ̵̡̧̨̧̧̱̱͚̬͈̹̗̲̙͈̥̜̭̰͓̜͚̱͍̼̥͇̝͙̘̖̭̞̼̘͉̭̭̹̰͙̬̤͜͜ͅŗ̵̡̧̧̨̧̢̡̛̫̳͚̲̱͔͇͖̺̪̲͇̘͔̙̞̱̞̻̙̩̻͈̣͖͈̙͑̀̈̏͗͆͒̉̉̽͆̽̐̿̑̋͑̀̏̊̒̀̐̑̐̃̀̿̋̋͛̆͗͂̍͘̚͝͝͝a̶̛̳̪̦͒̔̉͂̊͊̑͛͑̈́̏̀̒̑́̇̄̇̄̑͂̔͐̅̿͛̈́̓̑̀̽̍̍̆͌̒̉̓͗̉̓̑̑̍̃͐̊͛͘̚͘̕͝͝͠͝͝͠͠͝ͅl̷̨̡̧̛̼̠̭͔̭͓̥̗͙̺̤̗̲̤̤̭̠̟̹̤͕͎̠̟͎̞͚̓͗͂̔̓̐͑́̊̓̀̚͜͝ͅ ̷̡̨̡̨̛̛̛͍̜͉̱̞̪͙̳͇̻̻̹̦̹̲̥̘̲̮͚̺̝̰̙̱̜̝̋̀̍̉̉̀̈́̓̓̉̂̈́̈́͆̀̎̽́͊̌̄̾̃̒̄͋͐̇̏̾̈́̄̚͜͠͝͝b̶̨̰̖͈̲̖̟̰͍͎͔͇͑̿̀̾͋̓̍̃̓̇͆̐͌̏̅̈́̈̓͠͠͝ͅẽ̵̛͙̖̱̪̘͙̻̗̦̼͎̺̅͒̀̇̉̀̅́̈́͗̔̋̎̽͑͌̐̍̆̓̃̍͗̌͆̀̚̕͝ͅị̵̢̡̡̨̢̡̳̱̭̻̞̙̺͍͙͎͇̼̝̝̻̫̯̟͓̞̮͖̦̘͎̗̳̺͕̟̝̰̜͎̮͈͇͚̮̀̅̈́̈̀͊͂̀̊́̓̋͂̽͜͜͜͜͜͝ͅn̷̡͇̗̗̟͎̩̬̳̱̈̋̈́͠g̸̨̡̡̢̨̛̞̬̤̫̻̰̠̰̯̹͎̻̘͍̥͚̱͎̫̦̯̳͔̤͕̝͎̭̺̺̖͉͎͍̗̦͇̳̯̹̫̼͇̜̮̙̹̤͈͓̼͕͙̎̅̌̈́̂͋͛̾̋̀͒͊̊̔̂̀̊̾͊͆̑̓̍͒̉̀͜͝͝͝s̸̢̡̡̢̹̦̥͕̮̗̭͈̙̠͕̪͕̖̪͖͚̯͓̻̤̱̳̘͇̲̘̺̘̯̦̯̗͔͍͑̒̈̑̃̿̍͑̚͜͜ͅ so we borrowed a couple noteworthy individuals like him. They still visit their home time but have to be on the DL.
Nero alive in Serbia, Nero making album of Serbia. Fast rap Nero Serbia.
Working at a gas station in Michigan…
Isn't it always like that!
Nero is Alive and Well and Living in Paris
Any day now..
Ancient Elvis
Wonder if he's still alive?
Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians, a notable dynasty starting with perhaps the most famous, Augustus Caesar. I can understand there being some confusion when Nero died and the successor was not clear.
Legit looks Joaquin Phoenix.
There's a reason why his name is Phoenix I guess
I think he’s dead now. I solved it
Somehow, Nero returned
Some say he's still burning CD's to this day.
I new it! I swear I saw him in Mexico ten years ago.
Sounds like he was inspired by his buddy Jesus Christ
>"A great king will flee from Italy like a runaway slave unseen and unheard over the channel of the Euphrates, when he dares to incur a maternal curse for repulsive murder and many other things, confidently, with wicked hand. When he runs away, beyond the Parthian land, many will bloody the ground for the throne of Rome. A leader of Rome will come to Syria who will burn the Temple of Jerusalem with fire, at the same time slaughter many men. [...] Then the strife of war being aroused will come to the west, and the fugitive from Rome will also come, brandishing a great spear, having crossed the Euphrates with many myriads [...] Great wealth will come to Asia, which Rome itself once plundered and deposited in her house of many possessions" -- *Sibylline Oracles*, 4.119-146 (written in the late first century CE)
We knew it, folks, didn't we? When that no-good Senate approved Emperor Galba - it was rigged! It was totally crooked. Everyone loved Nero! Look, ask anyone, Nero had the highest approval rating of all time! Maybe better than Caesar, but I don't say that, but people say that, it's true! But maybe Caesar, he was good too. But it was rigged, by the never-Nero senate. SAD!
I heard he got mad and went back in time to kill Tiberius’ dad.
Time is a flat circle.
And that conspiracy is fucking us over to this date, since the Book of Revelations was inspired by it and it is motivating the christofascists that are waiting for the Rapture.
Nero isn't dead, he just went home
To Graceland.
Look Castratius, all I'm saying is I didn't SEE him die, they could tell us anything in the rotunda and we'd believe it!
He'll be back any day now and will declare the election null and void and become Trumps VP!!! ANY DAY NOW!