That's the thing they're all forgetting, studies are showing that WFH is better for productivity in _most_ cases (yes some jobs can't be done from home, and some people suck at it), so these big behemoths that have invested in real estate will eventually start getting outclassed by companies that can be more agile and cut costs like a million+ dollars in expenses saved.
Then beyond the lease they've got maintenance on those buildings under some sort of CAM fee (here in NY it's typically the responsibility of the business tenant to clear snow off the property), electrical, heating/cooling which are significant. I already have to pay to keep my house cool during the day, might as well keep me there instead.
To be honest, I do a LOT less work at home. At the office I have to look busy, so I do. But my job is not one that’s constantly throwing things at you, it’s more like you’re supposed to find things to do.
That plus ADHD and no supervision is quite a combo lol
I’m the opposite- I get far more work done at home. I’m in my cozy office with my dog and my sweatpants. I take my adhd meds, and get shit done all day.
The context switching at work kills any sort of productivity as a software dev.
I get more done in the ~hour before the general staff gets in to the office than I do the whole rest of the day and probably the whole rest of the week to be fair.
Way back when I worked an office job, I convinced my manager (for no real business reason) that I should work east coast hours in our west coast office. I loved it, got a whole day’s real work done in those first few hours before all the meetings & socializing started. Then escaped early-afternoon before traffic went to hell, giving me plenty of daylight left for me to enjoy.
We had two people that did that in my office. They'd get there at 630 or 7am and leave at 3pm. They got their stuff done, and no one seemed to care. Just don't expect them to be in a meeting after 3 lol
My employer just has flex time. You are expected to work at least eight hours per day, but you can start as early as 6:00 (and leave at 2:30), or as late as 9:30 (and leave at 6:00). And anytime in between.
It's pretty great.
Yeah we really have always been more project based than time based. Mostly "here's a date, have x done by then" and things more or less get done. Extra chill now that we're all remote, too. It's nice. It would be really hard to go back!
I just tell people I get more work done at home so they let me keep doing it. Honestly I get the same amount of work done either way, but not commuting and having to pack lunch makes me a happier person.
When I work at home I don't have to worry.about my kid going to school, coming back or summer vacation. I'm here and don't have to adjust my schedule. If I'm tired I can use my lunch break to take a nap or eat a good lunch I cook. I can talk to my partner or kid.
I do *exactly* the same amount of work now that I'm remote...
I just do it in about 15 hours instead of 40, then fuck off and enjoy the rest of my week.
I am far more productive at home. My career was stagnant prior to the pandemic. It was a 1.5hr commute each way. By the time I got to the office I was already burnt out. Then everyone wanted to spend time socializing, going out for lunch, interrupting for chit chat. Since working remotely my productivity has taken off. I probably work a solid 7-8hrs of actual completely focused time every day now, whereas it used to be maybe like 2-3hrs. I start the day energized and I leave the day feeling good about my work. Definitely don't ever want to have to go back to that. It would completely ruin the work I've been able to contribute more recently, and it would probably just burn me out again.
I am the opposite I have ADHD as well and working from home is beneficial to me as there are less distractions and can get in a groove faster and stay in that grove longer.
I get a lot more stuff done in HO than in the office, because I can work when I feel rested, and rest whenever I feel worn down (e.g. post-lunch food coma).
But when there's no one else in the office (most of the time, because our company allows for unlimited HO), I can still get more stuff done than on the few crowded days - all that chitchat is a productivity killer.
The opposite is true for me. I get 2 hours of work done in 4 hours at the office. Its billable hours. Its just so much bs distracting me, colleagues, conversations, meetings... I'd much rather get a solid, uninterrupted 4 hrs of work done at home, and not waste another 2 hrs with distractions being in an office, and waste another hour or two everyday getting dressed and commuting back and forth.
If I get paid for 4 hrs, the company is getting 4 hrs of work out of me, instead of me wasting 6 hours out of my day for the company to get 2 hours of work out of me when they are paying for 4.
Its win win.
I'm with you - my brain seems to be largely influenced by its environment. Office = work mode. Home = everything else mode.
Even a dedicated home office didn't help *that* much.
Noise cancelling headphones are critical for the office though. Half the time, I'm not even listening to anything.
Go to a psychiatrist and get on some ADHD drugs my dude. That shit was like turning by brain to the right channel after years of hearing static.
I also feel like I work better at an office, but if I was saving the $5k a year I spend on commuting, I could just buy all the things I need to feel more productive at home.
New computer, new office furniture... Hell, I could just buy a whole shed stick it in the yard and turn that into an office.
Companies that could dump lease were happy for WFH. One company found if they had staid in the historical building they were looking at 8-10 mill in renos. Everyone stayed at WFH and they dumped the building. People don't understand though if you rent a building you can't turn off power and heat. Meaning if no one is using it you are just burning that money.
have to go into the city office 2 times per month.
i get to watch 90% of the people do nothing but socialize the whole time they are there while somehow i end up working longer hours (and then add in the commute.
I quit a job after they insisted everything would be open concept. Including the server room.
Begged them not too.
People would hard power off my servers so they didn't have to bother us with troubleshooting things that are completely unrelated. Cost us thousands of dollars when they did it to a tape backup and somehow that's our fault too.
We had a lady plug up the one server with clothes because the air blowing on her was making her cold. Like insane level stupidity They were spread all over too so you couldn't even keep an eye on all your stuff
People would think our KVMs were standing desks and try and use them and get pissy and complain we weren't letting them use them
Man I could see those situations happening in a Silicon Valley episode. It's funny because it sound more insane than some of the insane moments in that show.
Cubicles were invented to give employees privacy to better accomplish their tasks without being distracted by coworkers.
Sure, some jobs benefit from having an open floorplan that encourages socializing some of the time. Even as someone who does most of my job alone and I do not need to be in the office, there's benefits to knowing other employees. Everyone benefits from knowing a few more coworkers to have bonds to reach out to when you get stuck or need a favor.
But that's what breakrooms and social events are for—not open offices. Give me my 3.5 walls and desk space, where I can leave non-confidential materials out and decorate to my liking, and I'll work better for you.
I wfh now, but I honestly loved our cubicles at work. It was just private enough that you could sit and focus when you need to, but still collaborate with folks easily.
It doesn’t matter about using the office- I’m fine with using the office for some industries. But using the office in an open floor plan is ridiculous. You shouldn’t have just tables and non-assigned desks/areas. Shit should be carefully organized to maximize production, and people should have some barriers between them so that you can focus when it’s actually time to work.
I’m not talking full on cubicles- some people like them though, I would personally love working in a cubicle. But most people cannot focus when there’s just noise and distractions all around them
> You shouldn’t have just tables and non-assigned desks/areas.
So what you do is set up a system to reserve your desk every day. That way when you are forced to come into the office to collaborate with your co-workers, you have no freaking clue where they are, so you end up calling them on Teams virtually because fuck you.
I'm going to defend them as situationally useful. I worked in video game QA; lots of collaboration and shifting team sizes. Having closed offices or cubicles would have hindered things.
But I do not doubt that many offices use it when they shouldn't. Number one example is call centers; I can't imagine a bunch of people trying to take phone calls in such an environment.
Much rather go in twice a month than 5 days a week.
To me the worst part about being in the office is a slow day and you are just stuck there.
At home slow days do not matter as you can do other stuff.
Yep, this is the real reason why remote work is OP. As long as I just make sure I'm available for my full 8 hours, if I've got no tasks, I can just do other stuff. I feel less stressed out at the end of the day as well, because instead of coming home and the having to do chores, I'm... already done with them. It makes my weekends freer because of it, too.
My company is trying to get me to go back in after 4 years of being fully remote. My team is located in other states, I'd have to deal with 2 hours of traffic a day to sit in virtual meetings since everyone else is out of state. I went in one day and was so distracted because I immediately heard others just bullshitting about non work stuff. I hate it so much. Having to setup and and tear down each day at our now open office plan without assigned desks. They have the cheapest mouse and keyboards you could possibly find with uncomfortable seats/monitor setups with horrible ergonomics compared with what I have at home.
Amazing observation. And the ones who put these plans in place all have their own offices. If it’s such a good idea why don’t they sit at a table with six other people and no barriers like everyone else.
I think the idea of open offices is one ironically of form over function. It looks aesthetically pleasing and in theory encourages collaboration because casual intuition makes walls seem like barriers. In practice paradoxically people actually collaborate less. In addition, a lot of work just requires dedicated working space without excessive distractions.
As you note though it seems ironic that if it's so effective execs pushing for them would want the same. You do see some Japanese companies where managers avoid the corner office, but in American orgs once you get very large that becomes rare. Giving everybody an office isn't practical, but not even offering people cubicles is bordering on absurd.
Same here except during covid they thought it was great to have people working in "global" teams and I now work primarily with people with a 6 hour timezone difference. This means sometimes I need to be online later and hell if I'm going to commute to sit in virtual meetings and then sit in the office past hours.
I guess this is my plan, since I don't actually even work with anyone at the office, I'll just go in, swipe my badge since that's how they are tracking attendance, maybe check email or something and then leave to go home and do the real work. What I am struggling to deal with is the absolute insanity of it. There is nothing more frustrating to me than having to adhere to nonsensical and inefficient rules and processes.
we have to swipe in and out, and watch everyone come in well after "starting time" and then leave long before "quitting time"
pretty much just like it was pre covid. just with a much longer commute each way
I started at a new job 6 months ago. My job offer listed I would have to come in to office every two months for planning days for the PI. Monday - Thursday every two months. Never happened. At my 6 month review I asked what happened to coming in every two months and my manager straight up told me "It just turned into a full three day party every two months. Upper management saw pizza, beer, ice cream, all over the meeting rooms for multiple days, every two months, and got so confused. Since then, no more forced in office planning days as they just saw it as completely wasted weeks when people came into the office for it." Works for me.
This. Most of the in office hallway discussions that execs use to rationalize return to office aren't about work. They're water cooler chats that just happen outside of the break room.
We are once every 2 months. I like my coworkers and enjoy seeing them and talking with them. That "once" is more of a 45 minutes in the office and socializing before getting lunch on the company dime and then leaving for home before rush hour starts. All in all it's a 5 hour ordeal with most of it being socializing and lunch and it's really more of a company sponsored non work day.
There is some advantages of working physically near your coworkers but the savings of not actually going to an office far outweigh the advantages of both sides. So we compromised and take a free day every few months with some free food.
Yup. This is completely true for most companies. And while i miss the connections with people face to face it has no impact on our productivity. The only people losing in the WFH world are the corporations losing money from expensive real estate that they own or rent (sitting there empty most of the time) and the retail and restaurant businesses that used to benefit from office traffic buying things on their way to and from work.
We were talking about that on a call today. We had some turnover in leadership in 2019/2020 and the newer leaders are more team players and hire team players so there’s little to no departmental infighting.
> i get to watch 90% of the people do nothing but socialize the whole time they are there while somehow i end up working longer hours (and then add in the commute.
My office had heavy telework for several years pre-pandemic (everyone teleworked 2-3 days a week), went remote for the last 4+ years and are now requiring us to be in the office 1-2 days a week again like pre-pandemic.
Those days are definitely our least productive and that is partly by design.
We are cramming all our in person meetings during those days and freeing up time for telework days for individual work.
Of course, less productivity those days is also due to commutes.
I really don't see the need for in person days more than 1-2 a month but going to the office and sitting on virtual meetings all day feels really terrible.
The office buildings were the only way for a long time, but in true corporate fashion these companies fail to be forward thinking. Being successful isn’t so hard if you’re not afraid to take the first step in the right, but untraveled, direction.
I don't think people really appreciate how huge and how fast of a change fully remote work is/was. For literally millennia, city centers were where business was done and most productive due to density of people. I think we'll get there eventually, but I get why companies and cities push back so hard against it. How are cities and businesses set up to cater to downtown workers supposed to just up and revamp everything in a few years?
I mean, he could just ping me on Grindr but he keeps hiding his profile whenever we’re both online during the work day.
But nooo, he needs to see my teams status is online.
You know I’m online Steve.
That assumes you work in a healthy office environment where people respect you and your time. I just had to tell my own boss to reschedule a meeting three times today because he couldn’t be bothered to use the scheduling assistant built into outlook to see when my busy and free times were each time he rescheduled
These are the worst kind of people. Followed by those who refuse to spell your name properly via Teams or Email… where your name is in the address line!
Oh, my smile when it was officially announced that our company had chosen *not* to renew our division's leases.
100% remote. Outside of annual company-wide day-long meetings for anyone within a few states' distance of HQ, and regular get-togethers for anyone in the HQ state itself.
Turns out they've never invested in property. Which they appear to have in common with all the other businesses in our field, because -- no hyperbole -- *every single time* I meet online with a client or their rep, they're also working from home. Every time!
It's actually really lovely :)
unfortunately my company is BALLS DEEP into the commercial property sector, and we're pushing for a FULL return to office.
Just double down on your bad investment and buy at the bottom hoping it goes back up I guess.
If you are on a work laptop or using company VPN, then they are already spying on you.
The real criminals are the executives who have massive personal investments in commercial real estate. THEY are the ones that want everyone to return to the office.
Your micromangy boss has been and will continue to control every aspect of your worklife until you leave that miserable work environment.
Only if you remove the layers of bureaucracy involved where businesses have ties to real estate investments and banks and all are incentivized to ensure commercial property values don’t fall.
Yeah, but then commercial real estate loses money for banks and billionaires and you can’t have the peasants being happier if it means the rich lose even a single penny
dude i cant tell you how many people i know happily take lower wages for WFH. theres a company out there in my field that pays their employees deadass like 15-20k per year less than the going rate, and they have countless happy employees. How? They basically have a “get your job done and we dont give a fuck what you do” attitude and it works for them.
I mean, if I had very young kids it’s almost like a no brainer. 15k a year to spend 45-55 extra hours a week near my children (that’s roughly double what you’d get otherwise), probably 2-3 hours of extra quality time with them a day, have 3 meals a day with them, keep my spouse sane by sharing the load, and probably save some money on childcare?
I, on the other hand, with young kids couldn’t possibly imagine working from home as young kids have don’t understand boundaries and when the parents home it’s go-time.
I don't know why people are questioning you. I worked from home while my kids were little and you can't just have them in your office playing while you do teams meetings or try to do work on your computer. Very very few jobs will let you work with your kids there without childcare most of the time, for a reason.
My kiddos are getting better, but early on they didn’t understand super well that I was working from home, they only understood I was saying no to playing with them. That sucked.
I’m in the office 2x week and I find it to be a good balance of home life, work, family, and commute.
If you add up fuel costs, location costs related to commute range, food, vehicle repairs, medical complications from the stress of constant commuting… I mean, it doesn’t totally cover the wage loss, but the gap’s not as big as it looks on paper.
Well yes, but the flip side of that logic is they -should- pay you more for demanding that you come in and take the burden of the commute. All else being equal, extra job duties should merit extra pay, and requiring you to clean yourself up, pack your stuff, and commute to work is absolutely an additional duty beyond what someone doing the same work from home is.
Plus, if the role truly requires you be present in person, then it should command an extra premium by a company that wishes to ensure they don’t lose that crucial worker, who will be harder to replace than the work from home person due to the extra burden and the geographic requirements associated (i.e. no hiring someone from five states over for a face to face role, whereas the remote worker could be replaced by someone across an ocean, so a larger pool of labor supply). Same way that someone agreeing to be employed in an on-call role often commands an extra premium on their income versus a similar worker who isn’t on-call: it’s an extra duty and burden, and if the company wants that reliably taken care of they should pay the worker for it, or risk losing that worker to a job that pays the same but does not make such demands on their work-life balance.
Simple capitalism really, just not in the way corporations would like. In actuality, working conditions and wages are so mediocre (to put it generously) that workers will take what concessions, benefits, or compensation they can get.
I work remote and couldn't imagine going back in permanently. It's made my life a hell of a lot easier and happier overall. The most difficult thing can be setting boundaries between work/home sometimes. If you can nail that it's easy.
Days where I need to work long, I can close my office door and bury my head in work. Days where I have a little more free time, I can entertain the dogs outside, play video games, go for a walk, whatever floats my boat. Then when I want to get offline, I can just flip my status and be done immediately. I can play music as long or as loud as I want when I'm buried in a project. No 40 minute commute, or 20 minute convos on my way out the door. Just done right then and there.
It stuns me that companies are forcing people back in the office. Facility leases are a sunk cost, and the opportunity to make employees live's easier, combined with the benefit of reaching a wider national talent pool seems like a no brainer.
Today was the 1 day every 3 months one of the teams i work with has an office meeting. I didn't go in. When asked why? Because i have too much actual work to do. Going in would waste 2 hours on a commute, at least a hour for lunch leaving my desk, getting to the escalator, going down, finding somewhere to eat etc vs go to the fridge. Okay! Was the reply. I love my job.
I get my work load done. They apprecate it.
they're telling you lies, you can bet theyre pissed you couldnt be assed to be prepared ahead of time on your workload to show-up for the QUARTERLY meeting.
Once off you should be fine but i wouldn't pull that twice mang.
> Days where I need to work long, I can close my office door and bury my head in work. Days where I have a little more free time, I can entertain the dogs outside, play video games, go for a walk, whatever floats my boat.
Literally my experience, and I firmly believe it's why the guys up top have fully embraced this policy for our division.
Our years have a pattern: four months of relative quiet, five months of near-overwhelming crunch. During crunch time, we're all working 12+hr days for weeks on end.
A *great* way to make this possible is allowing your employee to step directly out of the workplace at night and into the kitchen, and from there straight to bed. No exhausted drive home. No sleeping in the office. A coworker once told me about rolling out of bed in the morning one day to just drag the laptop onto her lap and get back to work. Pajamas. Bedhead. *It didn't matter*. She could *immediately* get herself situated for the day.
Being comfortable while working severely long hours is a *godsend*. Being able to throw on some loud fucking music when you're tired but have this one thing *almost finished* is a godsend. It fucking does promote loyalty, y'know?
And best of all? Those quiet months. Manager blasts everyone on Teams sometimes: "HEY. It is SUNNY. Let's all GO FOR A WALK. For an hour. Longer? Whatever. Go play with your cats. It's too nice to work." Should we log out? "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES."
It's lovely.
Honestly even when the work/life boundary breaks down, I'm happier. It's more often the difference between not doing what I want at all vs sometimes work intruding on my home life.
More than anything through, I just find the office miserable. I hate the artificial human interaction that come with professionalism. Hate the sterile aesthetic, even in nice offices. Hate air conditioning. I'm just miserable in an office.
This is my only problem. I'm a PC gamer, so I already have a room for myself in our house for my desk and computer to live. So obviously I've put my WFH set up in there, too, instead of taking over more house space. But sometimes I wish my "work" and "play" areas were separate.
Yeah, most days I'm 8-5ish and take an hour lunch break. I have a busy season though where it's not exactly uncommon to work 10-12 hr days over a 2-3 month span. Some of that's probably my own doing, to be fair.
I was full remote for a company. They were all about it and “empowered” us to work where we were more effective. That changed quick when they announced 3x a week for “vibrancy” in the work place, then announced a voluntary separation incentive program (paid people to leave) shortly after that.
I left for a full remote cyber job and again, i couldn’t imagine myself being in an office.
Honestly even the boundary thing can have upsides, if it’s in your control. I’ll definitely trade some coding at night for getting to take my daughter to swim lessons mid day.
It turns it from labor into life-style. Sometimes I think about how Native Americans were notoriously bad to have as slaves because they were not accustomed to the concept of labor. Sure they fed themselves and took care of business and did whatever they needed to do, but it was not in a laborious way, it was more, well, life.
EDIT: I've clearly gone astray of the hot heads here on reddit. Please understand I'm not arguing for a change in life style, I am simply making an observation.
That’s not why they made for bad slaves. Native Americans still did *lots* of labour, as evidenced by things like the Mesoamerican cities, the farming that was being done by natives all the way out to modern Quebec, and a whole host of other activities. The problem that early European colonies ran into with using native Americans as chattel slaves for plantations was that Eurasian diseases rapidly killed them off, especially in the horrific conditions of those plantations.
The main reason Africans were taken as slaves instead was because there were simply more Africans available to be kidnapped. It also helped that there was already a well-established slave trade in sub-Saharan Africa that Europeans could and did pour metaphorical gasoline onto by trading horses, firearms, and other goods for people these African armies took as prisoners of war.
That sounds like one of those, 'we'd all be happy if we went back to the stone Age' kind of arguments. They didn't have labour? They had farms, they hunted, they repaired their clothes and their tools, they built structures, they looked after livestock and Children?
The idea that that pre iron Age communities were just sitting around eating food all day is pretty erroneous.
My only real fear with WFH is outsourcing. I am WFH and I love that I am afforded that opportunity ... But the move to WFH in 2020 made my company realize that they didn't want in-office employees. They sold a lot of their physical locations and outsourced over 50% of the US-based workforce to offshore companies. So tons of people lost their jobs and customers are impacted by poorer service. Shareholders don't care though because it equals out to higher profits. As the years pass, more and more of that workforce gets outsourced and my team is constantly on fear of being on the chopping block next.
I was wfh in 2016 and one of only a few people in the company who were (I lived in a completely different state when I was hired).
Being wfh made me an easy target for the massive layoffs + outsourcing they did 3 years later.
They would do that if they think that it's a job that can be done remotely. If managers think that it needs to be done in person, then it would have a lower risk of being outsourced.
Unless your employer is like mine, where they switched from full WFH to part-time telework. They realize zero of the benefits of remote employees, since they can't really reduce any of their facilities to save money, while we employees have to live with the annoyance of driving in once or twice a week for the sole reason of justifying some middle managers' existence, I guess.
Sure, I don't disagree. But when your whole branch was fully remote for 3 years with significantly increased productivity and no real issues, forcing you back into the office feels a bit shit.
Our productivity is definitely down on the days in office vs. WFH
i go in once every week and we spend 30-45 mins on coffee/tea. then some of us take a long lunch. some leave early to avoid traffic so all in all, a complete waste of everyone's time
Honestly, I think that’s the point for some employers. In person interactions help forge stronger relationships. Not saying you can’t do it virtually, but it’s different when you meet someone face to face. I don’t think it’s a bad use of time.
Seriously, I was hired full remote like all my team was 8 years ago, no problem at all, suddenly change of C-level who decides everyone must be 100% in office, even if that means having to move. WTH
I have to pay to park at my office. I spend about $130/month just in parking.
I make $40k/year. Almost 5% of my income goes just to parking. I think about this a lot.
It's not just the benefits to businesses and employees, the environment would benefit from reducing commuting. Emissions were reduced and air quality improved throughout much of the world during the period Covid restrictions were in place. Greenhouse gases and aerosol emissions were estimated to have been reduced by as much as 7% [Source](https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/news/2021/how-did-covid-19-lockdowns-affect-the-climate). I'm not advocating a lockdown but I feel it's illustrative that WFH has a contribution to make.
I go into work and it is constant disruptive noise and socializing. People will literally come to my desk and bullshit for 45 minutes. I hate every second of it.
It’s funny because the exact opposite usually happens.
When I’m in the office, if I’m off at let’s say 5 I’ll start wrapping up at 4:30, shutting down my computer packing my bag etc so I’m out the door right at 5 because of traffic.
When I work from home I could easily work an extra hour until 6 since I’m already at home.
But CEO’s can’t seem to figure that out.
Yeah because they’re shit managers.
Lots of managers like to be “deciders”. They want to sit in meetings and play mini king and feel important, or go and pester you at your desk about random shit all day.
Good managers know how to track and prioritize the actual work.
The good managers can manage global teams. The shit ones want everyone back in the office.
The biggest silver lining to covid for me. I never thought I'd get to work remote, but now I do. It's not just money saved from the commute and whatnot, but it's the time saved. I get an extra hour per day back by not commuting. I can get little tasks at home out of the way during the day when I'm on a break or just listening to a meeting, like empty the dishwasher and fold my laundry. Plus my cats are happy to have me around for extra pets.
it really depends on the worker, the company, and the industry. remote working can be beneficial in a lot of cases, but that doesnt mean its the best method across the board
I don't get how they calculate employer saving rent, rent is not incremental per employee. Employer would have to go full WFH and/or be in a position to lease less space suddenly to capture that benefit. Other than that, overall net benefit for everyone.
They mention the associated costs as a factor into that calculation: "f companies decide to go remote they can save many thousands of dollars each year by not having to pay office rent, utilities, coffee, and other expenses like furniture and office supplies. A company with 50 employees could save half a million dollars annually just by going remote!" But yeah, "rent" being the leading cause to saving is misleading.
Rent is in fact the big reason so many employers are against WFH. They've already leased the office for the next few years, so they're on the hook for that rent and justify it by bringing you in. There may even be tax implications to leaving the space vacant and no longer using it for business purposes.
But if you set up a business from scratch, certainly, it's cheaper to let everyone work from home.
The data around the employer saving money is iffy, it really just presumes that the company would relocate to a smaller facility. Replacing a chair every 5-10 years and providing electricity for a laptop isn't getting you to $10,600.
This assumes that there is zero cost incurred to reduced collaboration.
In some industries, innovation is aided by collaboration and communication, which is arguably less spontaneous over a video call versus in person.
My last team before the pandemic was ~ 60% H1B from India (in person). I switched teams during the pandemic, and my current team is 70% remote contractors from latin america. Having workers be roughly in your same timezone is worth the extra cost in hiring them over offshore folks from India. Anecdotally, their culture and communication skills are better as well.
My job is kind of pushing for RTO. My manager said there are many benefits to it, when I asked her which, she said “social life”.
At home, I work without distractions and get shit done. I have customer calls and my home office is quiet. The office is an open space and LOUD! My customers have actually complained when I went to the office. Either you make it that we go to the office to be social, no calls. Or, they can eff off.
When I told my manager that it’s just not convenient for me, and expensive to go to the office, she said “look at all the money you saved all this time.
At this point, the company is making it so difficult for employees and everyone I know is looking elsewhere. Such a dumb company.
yeah this thread is insane lol. it’s very easy to see how humanity gets to a wall-e type future based on reading all these replies. they’re so blind to their own biases too
My company canceled a $60,000 per month lease on their office space in 2023 and has not looked back
That's the thing they're all forgetting, studies are showing that WFH is better for productivity in _most_ cases (yes some jobs can't be done from home, and some people suck at it), so these big behemoths that have invested in real estate will eventually start getting outclassed by companies that can be more agile and cut costs like a million+ dollars in expenses saved. Then beyond the lease they've got maintenance on those buildings under some sort of CAM fee (here in NY it's typically the responsibility of the business tenant to clear snow off the property), electrical, heating/cooling which are significant. I already have to pay to keep my house cool during the day, might as well keep me there instead.
To be honest, I do a LOT less work at home. At the office I have to look busy, so I do. But my job is not one that’s constantly throwing things at you, it’s more like you’re supposed to find things to do. That plus ADHD and no supervision is quite a combo lol
I’m the opposite- I get far more work done at home. I’m in my cozy office with my dog and my sweatpants. I take my adhd meds, and get shit done all day.
Same. Having an environment I control and being able to limit distractions is massive for me.
The context switching at work kills any sort of productivity as a software dev. I get more done in the ~hour before the general staff gets in to the office than I do the whole rest of the day and probably the whole rest of the week to be fair.
Way back when I worked an office job, I convinced my manager (for no real business reason) that I should work east coast hours in our west coast office. I loved it, got a whole day’s real work done in those first few hours before all the meetings & socializing started. Then escaped early-afternoon before traffic went to hell, giving me plenty of daylight left for me to enjoy.
We had two people that did that in my office. They'd get there at 630 or 7am and leave at 3pm. They got their stuff done, and no one seemed to care. Just don't expect them to be in a meeting after 3 lol
My employer just has flex time. You are expected to work at least eight hours per day, but you can start as early as 6:00 (and leave at 2:30), or as late as 9:30 (and leave at 6:00). And anytime in between. It's pretty great.
Yeah we really have always been more project based than time based. Mostly "here's a date, have x done by then" and things more or less get done. Extra chill now that we're all remote, too. It's nice. It would be really hard to go back!
I just tell people I get more work done at home so they let me keep doing it. Honestly I get the same amount of work done either way, but not commuting and having to pack lunch makes me a happier person.
When I work at home I don't have to worry.about my kid going to school, coming back or summer vacation. I'm here and don't have to adjust my schedule. If I'm tired I can use my lunch break to take a nap or eat a good lunch I cook. I can talk to my partner or kid.
It’s how humans should live, honestly.
I do *exactly* the same amount of work now that I'm remote... I just do it in about 15 hours instead of 40, then fuck off and enjoy the rest of my week.
getting garbage "work" done for the sake of looking busy is part of the reason so many jobs are so soul-crushing
Yup. I am lucky, I am paid to accomplish goals. If the assigned work is done, and done well, very few questions are asked.
This should absolutely be the norm everywhere. There is no justification for finding extra bs things to do. Either the job gets done or it doesn't.
I am far more productive at home. My career was stagnant prior to the pandemic. It was a 1.5hr commute each way. By the time I got to the office I was already burnt out. Then everyone wanted to spend time socializing, going out for lunch, interrupting for chit chat. Since working remotely my productivity has taken off. I probably work a solid 7-8hrs of actual completely focused time every day now, whereas it used to be maybe like 2-3hrs. I start the day energized and I leave the day feeling good about my work. Definitely don't ever want to have to go back to that. It would completely ruin the work I've been able to contribute more recently, and it would probably just burn me out again.
I am the opposite I have ADHD as well and working from home is beneficial to me as there are less distractions and can get in a groove faster and stay in that grove longer.
I get a lot more stuff done in HO than in the office, because I can work when I feel rested, and rest whenever I feel worn down (e.g. post-lunch food coma). But when there's no one else in the office (most of the time, because our company allows for unlimited HO), I can still get more stuff done than on the few crowded days - all that chitchat is a productivity killer.
The opposite is true for me. I get 2 hours of work done in 4 hours at the office. Its billable hours. Its just so much bs distracting me, colleagues, conversations, meetings... I'd much rather get a solid, uninterrupted 4 hrs of work done at home, and not waste another 2 hrs with distractions being in an office, and waste another hour or two everyday getting dressed and commuting back and forth. If I get paid for 4 hrs, the company is getting 4 hrs of work out of me, instead of me wasting 6 hours out of my day for the company to get 2 hours of work out of me when they are paying for 4. Its win win.
I'm with you - my brain seems to be largely influenced by its environment. Office = work mode. Home = everything else mode. Even a dedicated home office didn't help *that* much. Noise cancelling headphones are critical for the office though. Half the time, I'm not even listening to anything.
I get way more done works from home. The ADHD socially starved can't bother me so I can get work done.
usually when an employee is forced to find things to do, they generally will make things worse.
Go to a psychiatrist and get on some ADHD drugs my dude. That shit was like turning by brain to the right channel after years of hearing static. I also feel like I work better at an office, but if I was saving the $5k a year I spend on commuting, I could just buy all the things I need to feel more productive at home. New computer, new office furniture... Hell, I could just buy a whole shed stick it in the yard and turn that into an office.
plus senior debt holders often force them to take their employees back into the office.
What company? Could go for a remote job right about now
One of the smart companies. While others are still forcing return to office
Any company that embraces WFH and lean operating is going to outpace and outcompete those that do not. It's only a matter of time.
Companies that could dump lease were happy for WFH. One company found if they had staid in the historical building they were looking at 8-10 mill in renos. Everyone stayed at WFH and they dumped the building. People don't understand though if you rent a building you can't turn off power and heat. Meaning if no one is using it you are just burning that money.
have to go into the city office 2 times per month. i get to watch 90% of the people do nothing but socialize the whole time they are there while somehow i end up working longer hours (and then add in the commute.
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oh yeah. but now its even worse / more apparent because they aren't getting to see each other everyday, and even more open floor plans.
Open floor plans are so stupid and incredibly counter productive to getting shit done
I quit a job after they insisted everything would be open concept. Including the server room. Begged them not too. People would hard power off my servers so they didn't have to bother us with troubleshooting things that are completely unrelated. Cost us thousands of dollars when they did it to a tape backup and somehow that's our fault too.
An open concept server room is the dumbest fucking corporate shit I’ve ever heard, and that’s REALLY saying something.
We had a lady plug up the one server with clothes because the air blowing on her was making her cold. Like insane level stupidity They were spread all over too so you couldn't even keep an eye on all your stuff People would think our KVMs were standing desks and try and use them and get pissy and complain we weren't letting them use them
honestly that's more on your company than your colleagues. like wtf?
I babysit a small data center. Envisioning this "open concept data center" is really kind of terrifying and baffling.
Man I could see those situations happening in a Silicon Valley episode. It's funny because it sound more insane than some of the insane moments in that show.
We have a passkey to get into the server room. Seems pretty obvious.
who the fuck approved that? holy shit that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard and I've worked in IT for decades I just... I'd walk the fuck out.
That's...another level
My brother in christ how did they cool an open concept server room?
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Oh I'm aware. I just thought that problem was implied.
Let them make the washroom, open too. They really like open room concept.
Cubicles were invented to give employees privacy to better accomplish their tasks without being distracted by coworkers. Sure, some jobs benefit from having an open floorplan that encourages socializing some of the time. Even as someone who does most of my job alone and I do not need to be in the office, there's benefits to knowing other employees. Everyone benefits from knowing a few more coworkers to have bonds to reach out to when you get stuck or need a favor. But that's what breakrooms and social events are for—not open offices. Give me my 3.5 walls and desk space, where I can leave non-confidential materials out and decorate to my liking, and I'll work better for you.
I wfh now, but I honestly loved our cubicles at work. It was just private enough that you could sit and focus when you need to, but still collaborate with folks easily.
They don't care. They are paying for the office. They expect it to be used.
It doesn’t matter about using the office- I’m fine with using the office for some industries. But using the office in an open floor plan is ridiculous. You shouldn’t have just tables and non-assigned desks/areas. Shit should be carefully organized to maximize production, and people should have some barriers between them so that you can focus when it’s actually time to work. I’m not talking full on cubicles- some people like them though, I would personally love working in a cubicle. But most people cannot focus when there’s just noise and distractions all around them
> You shouldn’t have just tables and non-assigned desks/areas. So what you do is set up a system to reserve your desk every day. That way when you are forced to come into the office to collaborate with your co-workers, you have no freaking clue where they are, so you end up calling them on Teams virtually because fuck you.
I'm going to defend them as situationally useful. I worked in video game QA; lots of collaboration and shifting team sizes. Having closed offices or cubicles would have hindered things. But I do not doubt that many offices use it when they shouldn't. Number one example is call centers; I can't imagine a bunch of people trying to take phone calls in such an environment.
Much rather go in twice a month than 5 days a week. To me the worst part about being in the office is a slow day and you are just stuck there. At home slow days do not matter as you can do other stuff.
Yep, this is the real reason why remote work is OP. As long as I just make sure I'm available for my full 8 hours, if I've got no tasks, I can just do other stuff. I feel less stressed out at the end of the day as well, because instead of coming home and the having to do chores, I'm... already done with them. It makes my weekends freer because of it, too.
Don't forget to move your mouse to show activity. And make sure that you're company doesn't use monitoring software.
I like to remind myself when I'm doing laundry or dishes while working from home that I'm actually being PAID to do my chores 😁
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See that makes sense to me. One day a week paid social day to keep in touch. That’s what there worry about isn’t? People not knowing each other.
Yep, nobody gets work done on the office days.
My company is trying to get me to go back in after 4 years of being fully remote. My team is located in other states, I'd have to deal with 2 hours of traffic a day to sit in virtual meetings since everyone else is out of state. I went in one day and was so distracted because I immediately heard others just bullshitting about non work stuff. I hate it so much. Having to setup and and tear down each day at our now open office plan without assigned desks. They have the cheapest mouse and keyboards you could possibly find with uncomfortable seats/monitor setups with horrible ergonomics compared with what I have at home.
Open office plans are the worst IMHO. There is so much management research against them it isn't funny, but somehow they persist.
Panopticons sound like a better idea when you’re not in the cells
Amazing observation. And the ones who put these plans in place all have their own offices. If it’s such a good idea why don’t they sit at a table with six other people and no barriers like everyone else.
I think the idea of open offices is one ironically of form over function. It looks aesthetically pleasing and in theory encourages collaboration because casual intuition makes walls seem like barriers. In practice paradoxically people actually collaborate less. In addition, a lot of work just requires dedicated working space without excessive distractions. As you note though it seems ironic that if it's so effective execs pushing for them would want the same. You do see some Japanese companies where managers avoid the corner office, but in American orgs once you get very large that becomes rare. Giving everybody an office isn't practical, but not even offering people cubicles is bordering on absurd.
Same here except during covid they thought it was great to have people working in "global" teams and I now work primarily with people with a 6 hour timezone difference. This means sometimes I need to be online later and hell if I'm going to commute to sit in virtual meetings and then sit in the office past hours.
Start looking. Management has their heads up their asses.
Poor equipment leading to pain sounds like an HR issue. Maybe if enough people report it... Or I'm delusional. That could be, too.
yep basically. i go to do the mail stuff befor (and now that its two days in a row i really dont get the point of )
I guess this is my plan, since I don't actually even work with anyone at the office, I'll just go in, swipe my badge since that's how they are tracking attendance, maybe check email or something and then leave to go home and do the real work. What I am struggling to deal with is the absolute insanity of it. There is nothing more frustrating to me than having to adhere to nonsensical and inefficient rules and processes.
we have to swipe in and out, and watch everyone come in well after "starting time" and then leave long before "quitting time" pretty much just like it was pre covid. just with a much longer commute each way
I started at a new job 6 months ago. My job offer listed I would have to come in to office every two months for planning days for the PI. Monday - Thursday every two months. Never happened. At my 6 month review I asked what happened to coming in every two months and my manager straight up told me "It just turned into a full three day party every two months. Upper management saw pizza, beer, ice cream, all over the meeting rooms for multiple days, every two months, and got so confused. Since then, no more forced in office planning days as they just saw it as completely wasted weeks when people came into the office for it." Works for me.
This. Most of the in office hallway discussions that execs use to rationalize return to office aren't about work. They're water cooler chats that just happen outside of the break room.
Last month or was a morning talking about the best craft donut place around there. At least I got a donut and it was fairly good as donuts go
We are once every 2 months. I like my coworkers and enjoy seeing them and talking with them. That "once" is more of a 45 minutes in the office and socializing before getting lunch on the company dime and then leaving for home before rush hour starts. All in all it's a 5 hour ordeal with most of it being socializing and lunch and it's really more of a company sponsored non work day. There is some advantages of working physically near your coworkers but the savings of not actually going to an office far outweigh the advantages of both sides. So we compromised and take a free day every few months with some free food.
Yup. This is completely true for most companies. And while i miss the connections with people face to face it has no impact on our productivity. The only people losing in the WFH world are the corporations losing money from expensive real estate that they own or rent (sitting there empty most of the time) and the retail and restaurant businesses that used to benefit from office traffic buying things on their way to and from work.
Socializing may not seem like real work to you but if you want to advance in your career it’s the most important thing you do.
While true, is probably also the primary reason why people end up in jobs they can't do.
I’d rather work with someone 60% competent than 100% asshole.
Somehow, there's always at least one person who is both incompetent and an asshole and they never ever leave.
We were talking about that on a call today. We had some turnover in leadership in 2019/2020 and the newer leaders are more team players and hire team players so there’s little to no departmental infighting.
And leave the people who don't get snack and nap breaks to pick up the slack
And then get promoted to other jobs they can't do or get a golden parachute.
Highly job dependent.
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It was never about productivity.
I got promoted and a 20 thousand dollar raise while working remote because I could do the job better then anybody else.
> i get to watch 90% of the people do nothing but socialize the whole time they are there while somehow i end up working longer hours (and then add in the commute. My office had heavy telework for several years pre-pandemic (everyone teleworked 2-3 days a week), went remote for the last 4+ years and are now requiring us to be in the office 1-2 days a week again like pre-pandemic. Those days are definitely our least productive and that is partly by design. We are cramming all our in person meetings during those days and freeing up time for telework days for individual work. Of course, less productivity those days is also due to commutes. I really don't see the need for in person days more than 1-2 a month but going to the office and sitting on virtual meetings all day feels really terrible.
Me but 2x a week.
Huge office buildings and Medical insurance are two things that shouldn't be so tightly linked to employment.
The office buildings were the only way for a long time, but in true corporate fashion these companies fail to be forward thinking. Being successful isn’t so hard if you’re not afraid to take the first step in the right, but untraveled, direction.
I don't think people really appreciate how huge and how fast of a change fully remote work is/was. For literally millennia, city centers were where business was done and most productive due to density of people. I think we'll get there eventually, but I get why companies and cities push back so hard against it. How are cities and businesses set up to cater to downtown workers supposed to just up and revamp everything in a few years?
Almost like it is a good idea which should be more widely used.
But then how will the scumbag boss know if you’re busy staring at the screen working or just goofing off?
I mean, he could just ping me on Grindr but he keeps hiding his profile whenever we’re both online during the work day. But nooo, he needs to see my teams status is online. You know I’m online Steve.
You can always setup a Teams call with yourself to keep people from bothering you
That assumes you work in a healthy office environment where people respect you and your time. I just had to tell my own boss to reschedule a meeting three times today because he couldn’t be bothered to use the scheduling assistant built into outlook to see when my busy and free times were each time he rescheduled
These are the worst kind of people. Followed by those who refuse to spell your name properly via Teams or Email… where your name is in the address line!
WMP set to repeat on a still screenshot will keep the ol pc awake forever
Won't someone think of the commercial property owners?
Oh, my smile when it was officially announced that our company had chosen *not* to renew our division's leases. 100% remote. Outside of annual company-wide day-long meetings for anyone within a few states' distance of HQ, and regular get-togethers for anyone in the HQ state itself. Turns out they've never invested in property. Which they appear to have in common with all the other businesses in our field, because -- no hyperbole -- *every single time* I meet online with a client or their rep, they're also working from home. Every time! It's actually really lovely :)
unfortunately my company is BALLS DEEP into the commercial property sector, and we're pushing for a FULL return to office. Just double down on your bad investment and buy at the bottom hoping it goes back up I guess.
Looks like they'll have to adapt just like everyone else! Maybe some new parks or housing developments on the horizon?
Ah yes, let's not forget the poor landlords and their empty office spaces!
those poor landlords god bless them
They have it so hard 😞
Let them burn
If you are on a work laptop or using company VPN, then they are already spying on you. The real criminals are the executives who have massive personal investments in commercial real estate. THEY are the ones that want everyone to return to the office. Your micromangy boss has been and will continue to control every aspect of your worklife until you leave that miserable work environment.
And who will rent out all this commercial real estate?!
Microsoft is working on it >.<
Think of how much money businesses could save by cutting down on middle managers!
Productivity actually rises when they are allowed more control and are freed from middle management trying to justify their own jobs.
By seeing the finished work, but that would be crazy!
Only if you remove the layers of bureaucracy involved where businesses have ties to real estate investments and banks and all are incentivized to ensure commercial property values don’t fall.
Yeah, but then commercial real estate loses money for banks and billionaires and you can’t have the peasants being happier if it means the rich lose even a single penny
dude i cant tell you how many people i know happily take lower wages for WFH. theres a company out there in my field that pays their employees deadass like 15-20k per year less than the going rate, and they have countless happy employees. How? They basically have a “get your job done and we dont give a fuck what you do” attitude and it works for them.
I mean, if I had very young kids it’s almost like a no brainer. 15k a year to spend 45-55 extra hours a week near my children (that’s roughly double what you’d get otherwise), probably 2-3 hours of extra quality time with them a day, have 3 meals a day with them, keep my spouse sane by sharing the load, and probably save some money on childcare?
I, on the other hand, with young kids couldn’t possibly imagine working from home as young kids have don’t understand boundaries and when the parents home it’s go-time.
I don't know why people are questioning you. I worked from home while my kids were little and you can't just have them in your office playing while you do teams meetings or try to do work on your computer. Very very few jobs will let you work with your kids there without childcare most of the time, for a reason.
the people questioning are the jerks who have their kids screaming on zoom calls
My kiddos are getting better, but early on they didn’t understand super well that I was working from home, they only understood I was saying no to playing with them. That sucked. I’m in the office 2x week and I find it to be a good balance of home life, work, family, and commute.
If you add up fuel costs, location costs related to commute range, food, vehicle repairs, medical complications from the stress of constant commuting… I mean, it doesn’t totally cover the wage loss, but the gap’s not as big as it looks on paper.
yeah, cars are a lot more expensive than people seem to realize when you actually add up all the costs of having one
Or, how about the company just pays me the same amount, seeing as I’m doing the same work
Well yes, but the flip side of that logic is they -should- pay you more for demanding that you come in and take the burden of the commute. All else being equal, extra job duties should merit extra pay, and requiring you to clean yourself up, pack your stuff, and commute to work is absolutely an additional duty beyond what someone doing the same work from home is. Plus, if the role truly requires you be present in person, then it should command an extra premium by a company that wishes to ensure they don’t lose that crucial worker, who will be harder to replace than the work from home person due to the extra burden and the geographic requirements associated (i.e. no hiring someone from five states over for a face to face role, whereas the remote worker could be replaced by someone across an ocean, so a larger pool of labor supply). Same way that someone agreeing to be employed in an on-call role often commands an extra premium on their income versus a similar worker who isn’t on-call: it’s an extra duty and burden, and if the company wants that reliably taken care of they should pay the worker for it, or risk losing that worker to a job that pays the same but does not make such demands on their work-life balance. Simple capitalism really, just not in the way corporations would like. In actuality, working conditions and wages are so mediocre (to put it generously) that workers will take what concessions, benefits, or compensation they can get.
I work remote and couldn't imagine going back in permanently. It's made my life a hell of a lot easier and happier overall. The most difficult thing can be setting boundaries between work/home sometimes. If you can nail that it's easy. Days where I need to work long, I can close my office door and bury my head in work. Days where I have a little more free time, I can entertain the dogs outside, play video games, go for a walk, whatever floats my boat. Then when I want to get offline, I can just flip my status and be done immediately. I can play music as long or as loud as I want when I'm buried in a project. No 40 minute commute, or 20 minute convos on my way out the door. Just done right then and there. It stuns me that companies are forcing people back in the office. Facility leases are a sunk cost, and the opportunity to make employees live's easier, combined with the benefit of reaching a wider national talent pool seems like a no brainer.
Today was the 1 day every 3 months one of the teams i work with has an office meeting. I didn't go in. When asked why? Because i have too much actual work to do. Going in would waste 2 hours on a commute, at least a hour for lunch leaving my desk, getting to the escalator, going down, finding somewhere to eat etc vs go to the fridge. Okay! Was the reply. I love my job. I get my work load done. They apprecate it.
they're telling you lies, you can bet theyre pissed you couldnt be assed to be prepared ahead of time on your workload to show-up for the QUARTERLY meeting. Once off you should be fine but i wouldn't pull that twice mang.
> Days where I need to work long, I can close my office door and bury my head in work. Days where I have a little more free time, I can entertain the dogs outside, play video games, go for a walk, whatever floats my boat. Literally my experience, and I firmly believe it's why the guys up top have fully embraced this policy for our division. Our years have a pattern: four months of relative quiet, five months of near-overwhelming crunch. During crunch time, we're all working 12+hr days for weeks on end. A *great* way to make this possible is allowing your employee to step directly out of the workplace at night and into the kitchen, and from there straight to bed. No exhausted drive home. No sleeping in the office. A coworker once told me about rolling out of bed in the morning one day to just drag the laptop onto her lap and get back to work. Pajamas. Bedhead. *It didn't matter*. She could *immediately* get herself situated for the day. Being comfortable while working severely long hours is a *godsend*. Being able to throw on some loud fucking music when you're tired but have this one thing *almost finished* is a godsend. It fucking does promote loyalty, y'know? And best of all? Those quiet months. Manager blasts everyone on Teams sometimes: "HEY. It is SUNNY. Let's all GO FOR A WALK. For an hour. Longer? Whatever. Go play with your cats. It's too nice to work." Should we log out? "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES." It's lovely.
Honestly even when the work/life boundary breaks down, I'm happier. It's more often the difference between not doing what I want at all vs sometimes work intruding on my home life. More than anything through, I just find the office miserable. I hate the artificial human interaction that come with professionalism. Hate the sterile aesthetic, even in nice offices. Hate air conditioning. I'm just miserable in an office.
This is my only problem. I'm a PC gamer, so I already have a room for myself in our house for my desk and computer to live. So obviously I've put my WFH set up in there, too, instead of taking over more house space. But sometimes I wish my "work" and "play" areas were separate.
I work remote and just moved into a place with more space and separating gaming space from working space was huge for me.
unless there is a good reason for staying late I am very much sign on at 9 log off at 5:30.
Yeah, most days I'm 8-5ish and take an hour lunch break. I have a busy season though where it's not exactly uncommon to work 10-12 hr days over a 2-3 month span. Some of that's probably my own doing, to be fair.
I was full remote for a company. They were all about it and “empowered” us to work where we were more effective. That changed quick when they announced 3x a week for “vibrancy” in the work place, then announced a voluntary separation incentive program (paid people to leave) shortly after that. I left for a full remote cyber job and again, i couldn’t imagine myself being in an office.
To add to this, the nooners keep the home office staff happy.
Honestly even the boundary thing can have upsides, if it’s in your control. I’ll definitely trade some coding at night for getting to take my daughter to swim lessons mid day.
Similar situation and love it. Frankly, I'm probably more efficient at home. I can take my time getting into work and I'm rarely interrupted.
It turns it from labor into life-style. Sometimes I think about how Native Americans were notoriously bad to have as slaves because they were not accustomed to the concept of labor. Sure they fed themselves and took care of business and did whatever they needed to do, but it was not in a laborious way, it was more, well, life. EDIT: I've clearly gone astray of the hot heads here on reddit. Please understand I'm not arguing for a change in life style, I am simply making an observation.
That’s not why they made for bad slaves. Native Americans still did *lots* of labour, as evidenced by things like the Mesoamerican cities, the farming that was being done by natives all the way out to modern Quebec, and a whole host of other activities. The problem that early European colonies ran into with using native Americans as chattel slaves for plantations was that Eurasian diseases rapidly killed them off, especially in the horrific conditions of those plantations. The main reason Africans were taken as slaves instead was because there were simply more Africans available to be kidnapped. It also helped that there was already a well-established slave trade in sub-Saharan Africa that Europeans could and did pour metaphorical gasoline onto by trading horses, firearms, and other goods for people these African armies took as prisoners of war.
And also NA had a much easier time escaping because they knew the landscape unlike african slaves who were much less capable of doing that
That sounds like one of those, 'we'd all be happy if we went back to the stone Age' kind of arguments. They didn't have labour? They had farms, they hunted, they repaired their clothes and their tools, they built structures, they looked after livestock and Children? The idea that that pre iron Age communities were just sitting around eating food all day is pretty erroneous.
My only real fear with WFH is outsourcing. I am WFH and I love that I am afforded that opportunity ... But the move to WFH in 2020 made my company realize that they didn't want in-office employees. They sold a lot of their physical locations and outsourced over 50% of the US-based workforce to offshore companies. So tons of people lost their jobs and customers are impacted by poorer service. Shareholders don't care though because it equals out to higher profits. As the years pass, more and more of that workforce gets outsourced and my team is constantly on fear of being on the chopping block next.
I was wfh in 2016 and one of only a few people in the company who were (I lived in a completely different state when I was hired). Being wfh made me an easy target for the massive layoffs + outsourcing they did 3 years later.
They would have done that anyway
They would do that if they think that it's a job that can be done remotely. If managers think that it needs to be done in person, then it would have a lower risk of being outsourced.
Unless your employer is like mine, where they switched from full WFH to part-time telework. They realize zero of the benefits of remote employees, since they can't really reduce any of their facilities to save money, while we employees have to live with the annoyance of driving in once or twice a week for the sole reason of justifying some middle managers' existence, I guess.
I mean, partial WFH is better than nothing. Many people do not even get that.
Sure, I don't disagree. But when your whole branch was fully remote for 3 years with significantly increased productivity and no real issues, forcing you back into the office feels a bit shit. Our productivity is definitely down on the days in office vs. WFH
i go in once every week and we spend 30-45 mins on coffee/tea. then some of us take a long lunch. some leave early to avoid traffic so all in all, a complete waste of everyone's time
Same here. I treat my day in the office like a day off. I go in, talk to coworkers, get free coffee and walk around the office lol
Honestly, I think that’s the point for some employers. In person interactions help forge stronger relationships. Not saying you can’t do it virtually, but it’s different when you meet someone face to face. I don’t think it’s a bad use of time.
The point, for most, is to justify all the money they spent or are spending on real estate/office space. They can't stand to "waste money"
They’re attempting this shit at my work - I was mostly remote for fucking years before Covid. I hate it.
Seriously, I was hired full remote like all my team was 8 years ago, no problem at all, suddenly change of C-level who decides everyone must be 100% in office, even if that means having to move. WTH
Well at least they’ll hit their attrition quota
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The training piece cannot be overstated. Training people remotely is not even close to as effective as doing it in person.
I have to pay to park at my office. I spend about $130/month just in parking. I make $40k/year. Almost 5% of my income goes just to parking. I think about this a lot.
That's, uh, what's the term... *fucking insane.*
It's not just the benefits to businesses and employees, the environment would benefit from reducing commuting. Emissions were reduced and air quality improved throughout much of the world during the period Covid restrictions were in place. Greenhouse gases and aerosol emissions were estimated to have been reduced by as much as 7% [Source](https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/news/2021/how-did-covid-19-lockdowns-affect-the-climate). I'm not advocating a lockdown but I feel it's illustrative that WFH has a contribution to make.
I go into work and it is constant disruptive noise and socializing. People will literally come to my desk and bullshit for 45 minutes. I hate every second of it.
Too bad so many bosses are afraid of it. So worried that employees will "take advantage".
It’s funny because the exact opposite usually happens. When I’m in the office, if I’m off at let’s say 5 I’ll start wrapping up at 4:30, shutting down my computer packing my bag etc so I’m out the door right at 5 because of traffic. When I work from home I could easily work an extra hour until 6 since I’m already at home. But CEO’s can’t seem to figure that out.
Multiple studies have shown that for many job positions, WFH creates more efficiency and a happier work force.
Yeah because they’re shit managers. Lots of managers like to be “deciders”. They want to sit in meetings and play mini king and feel important, or go and pester you at your desk about random shit all day. Good managers know how to track and prioritize the actual work. The good managers can manage global teams. The shit ones want everyone back in the office.
But who’s going to eat the free fruit at the office
Look at you. Mister ‘I have free fruit at the office’. At least you’ve got an incentive! 😂
The biggest silver lining to covid for me. I never thought I'd get to work remote, but now I do. It's not just money saved from the commute and whatnot, but it's the time saved. I get an extra hour per day back by not commuting. I can get little tasks at home out of the way during the day when I'm on a break or just listening to a meeting, like empty the dishwasher and fold my laundry. Plus my cats are happy to have me around for extra pets.
it really depends on the worker, the company, and the industry. remote working can be beneficial in a lot of cases, but that doesnt mean its the best method across the board
I don't get how they calculate employer saving rent, rent is not incremental per employee. Employer would have to go full WFH and/or be in a position to lease less space suddenly to capture that benefit. Other than that, overall net benefit for everyone.
They mention the associated costs as a factor into that calculation: "f companies decide to go remote they can save many thousands of dollars each year by not having to pay office rent, utilities, coffee, and other expenses like furniture and office supplies. A company with 50 employees could save half a million dollars annually just by going remote!" But yeah, "rent" being the leading cause to saving is misleading.
It's not immediate, but the next time their office lease is up, they can switch to a smaller space.
Rent is in fact the big reason so many employers are against WFH. They've already leased the office for the next few years, so they're on the hook for that rent and justify it by bringing you in. There may even be tax implications to leaving the space vacant and no longer using it for business purposes. But if you set up a business from scratch, certainly, it's cheaper to let everyone work from home.
The data around the employer saving money is iffy, it really just presumes that the company would relocate to a smaller facility. Replacing a chair every 5-10 years and providing electricity for a laptop isn't getting you to $10,600.
Tell that to my boomer ass boss who loves the office
This assumes that there is zero cost incurred to reduced collaboration. In some industries, innovation is aided by collaboration and communication, which is arguably less spontaneous over a video call versus in person.
Companies can save even more by off shoring jobs to people WFH in India.
My last team before the pandemic was ~ 60% H1B from India (in person). I switched teams during the pandemic, and my current team is 70% remote contractors from latin america. Having workers be roughly in your same timezone is worth the extra cost in hiring them over offshore folks from India. Anecdotally, their culture and communication skills are better as well.
This is what happened with my WFH job. I made good money but someone could do it cheaper.
This should be waaaay up higher. The people who want to work from home haven’t given a second thought about the implications.
If it was that easy they would have already done it.
That’s what they probably will do.
Plus more likely to retain a happier employee. Our CEO got a bug up his ass about WFH and I finally decided I'd had enough.
Not to mention diluting the glut in metropolitan cities, meaning you can move to LCOL areas, further increasing your savings (and wealth).
Okay, now let's stop fucking around and turn those buildings into housing.
But if everyone is at home, then who are the executives going to impress with their corner office?
My job is kind of pushing for RTO. My manager said there are many benefits to it, when I asked her which, she said “social life”. At home, I work without distractions and get shit done. I have customer calls and my home office is quiet. The office is an open space and LOUD! My customers have actually complained when I went to the office. Either you make it that we go to the office to be social, no calls. Or, they can eff off. When I told my manager that it’s just not convenient for me, and expensive to go to the office, she said “look at all the money you saved all this time. At this point, the company is making it so difficult for employees and everyone I know is looking elsewhere. Such a dumb company.
put another way, return to office is like taking a 12,000$ pay cut.
Not if it means having to move to a more expensive place. Then it's much worse.
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Employees are not allowed to have a better deal than The Company! THATS OUTRAGEOUS! Full RTO right now!
It’s amazing to me that Reddit people have never had a job where they’ve learned anything from a coworker while sitting in the same room.
It's a site designed for people with zero social skills
yeah this thread is insane lol. it’s very easy to see how humanity gets to a wall-e type future based on reading all these replies. they’re so blind to their own biases too
How are they going to micromanage and enforce autocratic policies to feel superior though?
My USA company has embraced the remote work environment so much that they are replacing all of us with low cost overseas personnel.