Scientology has a specific bone to pick with psychology/psychiatry, because they’re basically selling a competing product, and before it even turned into a cult cult the author has a very dim view of the field.
Yup. L Ron was selling a self improvement book with Dianetics. He wasn't selling a cult initially. He was selling a shitty little book he claimed could solve all your problems if you just dismissed everything the "quacks" are saying and listen to him instead.
And Scientology still markets itself somewhere between self help and religion. It’s why they get really upset when you share the alternate mythology shit like how they think your depression is because your alien ghosts have generational trauma.
You’re not supposed to learn the space opera lore until you pay for enough courses to become a level 3 Operating Thetan. It’s premium DLC content.
Scientology is the one religion where you actually have to pay to unlock their full theology package.
If you're a high muckety mucky in scientology, then you would rephrase or modify the original story to be easier digestible to 21st century recruit.
For example, evangelical christians dismissed evolution by saying dinosaurs were around during Adam and Eve's time and didn't make it on the Ark.
You’re here for the self help shit, you’ve dumped money, and now you’re asked to give more money, and you get L. Ron Hubbard’s rejected science fiction novel (and he got Battlefield Earth published).
The reason the crazy stuff is last is because by that point they’ve fed you enough small crazy that you’re properly primed.
But I’ve also heard of some folks that hit that point and suddenly realize what they’ve been dumping money into the whole time.
But why do they even bother? They've got your money, they have enough blackmail material to keep getting your money, so why do they bother with the mythology at that point?
in vs out crowd mentality. you feel like you’re in a special group that knows “the truth” and therefore only those you deem worthy can be like you. it’s gatekeeping at a religious level
The mythology is 1) presented by people who saw it and hung around 2) copyrighted and controlled by a foundation.
The second is profit motive (also a way to keep it secret, they’ll sue anyone exposing it directly for copyright violation), but the first is the real thing.
I’m being deliberately dismissive of the Xenu shit. It’s not even good science fiction. Hell, it’s not even Hubbard’s best work and if the dude hadn’t founded a “religion”, I guarantee you none of his shit would be remembered fondly by anyone.
But you gotta consider that these are the people who got in deep. The “secret, sacred history that you had to prove yourself to learn, that marks you as a very special person in the only social circle you’re allowed to have” is the LAST thing they tell you. Like, this would be like if there was secret unlockable content to Catholicism you only got access to if you were a cardinal. Like, you live your whole adult life as a priest and at the age of 40 something you become one of the guys eligible for the Papacy and they tell you all the Dan Brown novels are real, or that Jesus came back decades ago and is just chilling in Reno. Deliberately silly examples, but that level of “secret.”
And Scientology has been going long enough that there’s people well into middle aged who were raised in the church.
We’re well into boiling a frog metaphor here.
> The “secret, sacred history that you had to prove yourself to learn, that marks you as a very special person in the only social circle you’re allowed to have”
Yeah this shit works incredibly well on some humans I guess. Pretty much how qanon and conspiracy theories work.. there's nothing idiots love more than to feel special and smarter than others
The disgusting part is that almost understates what is going on. That is the only "religion," I know where you could get sued for helping spread the word. Basically they sue you for pirating their IP. Even the most money hungry game studio stops somewhere, not Scientology.
Would highly recommend this video from a couple months ago for everyone who wants a little extra insight too, from a former member.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPpKgU2zT-4
Edit: The guy in the video, not me lol.
From what I remember, Thetan Levels are more likely to be assigned to a person who's 'donated' about 200k to the cause, and anyone lower than TL3 isn't supposed to be told, or act as if they know, about anything above their paygrade.
It's like watching a class of kindergarteners play pretend that they're a form of government.
I once received a pamphlet - closer to a book really, was maybe 30 pages - in my mailbox all about "clean living". Full of life advice, was pretty abstinence heavy, I think there was something about renouncing sexual vices at one point too. Thing was way too big, and well produced, to just be random junk mail. First thing I did was check back cover, and right at the bottom was a whole paragraph about how this book was based off of Dianetics, and that the company that produced the pamphlet was legal distinct and separate from the church of Scientology pursuant to law XYZ. Straight into the bin it went.
Wait, are we saying that there are splinter groups of scientologists now? It's like they're a real religion, [sectarian differences](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/the-weekly-roll/ch-8-a-tale-of-a-party-long-gone/viewer?title_no=358889&episode_no=8) and all!
Or do you think this was just real scientologists in a "I'm a normal human" mask with the goal to get you into scientology?
There have been several [splinter groups](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology\)). The Church of Scientology calls them "squirrels" and does what it can to shut them down.
That's fucking hilarious. We have a religion, created from whole cloth less than 100 years ago, and it already has multiple splinter groups! I think it really just says something about the human condition.
I mean, I can’t remember the history super well but I think the same thing happened with Christianity (might’ve taken 100 years), and certainly with Mormonism. Islam (I think) had the Suffi/Suni split after Mohammed died.
I agree about the human condition, just pointing out it is normal for religion/cults to splinter early.
We inherited a copy of Dianetics from one of my grandmas (she was never a scientologist, not sure why she even had it.)
I remember seeing the cover and thinking it was some sort of cool sci-fi novel, I took it to school to read in homeroom class.
From the first word it's just drivel, I don't think I got 10 pages into it before being like "what....the fuck." I was probably only 15 at the time but I remember it reading like the ramblings of a mad man.
My dad bought the book because of that commercial. He said he got through the first chapter and put it on his shelf. He told me if the power goes out and we start running low on kindling use the Dianetics book first.
My parents bought the book, too. I found it a long time ago. But I suspect they bought it for entertainment value as much as curiosity. I tried to read it, lost it at N-grams. I did skim it though, it might work, some of Hubbard's ideas aren't terrible, but a good 80% are trash. The other 20% is shit other self help gurus will tell you for cheap or free.
They were sold right next to Sinead O'Connor's book
I remember them well plastered all over book stores.
It was a definite PR ploy to try and convince people it was "normal" and not a cult through underselling what it really was
The volcano iconography is likely because according to Scientology, a galactic overlord called Xenu brought billions of his people to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft 75 million years ago, stacked them around volcanoes, and killed them with hydrogen bombs. The souls then left the bodies of those aliens (called thetans) and roamed the earth, until they attached and started living inside humans. We then suffer from their trauma and require Scientology to cure us.
This is what Tom Cruise etc all believe.
As a kid I thought it looked cool AF but of course I had no idea what it was.
Thankfully, I was raised catholic and didn't get indoctrinated in to any crazy beliefs /s
I just remember seeing commercials for “Dianetics” while watching Star Trek and Night Court reruns on the local UHF station after school. 11 year old me thought it was weird at the time (both the commercial and the book.)
Yeah, someone gave me a copy of the book. Not exactly sure why they had it.
I too only made it through the beginning before deciding it was such dreck that it wasn't even worth reading to laugh at or criticize.
As I recall they constantly try to redefine words. Which I think is actually a pretty common thing for cults to do (although some groups kind of do this without exactly being a cult, usually just insufferable).
They used to sell the Dianetics book in the grocery store in the early 1980s here. I remember thinking it was a science fiction book and picked it up, my dad slapped it out of my hand so fast and put it back - once we got outside, he explained that the store owner is in a cult and the book is made to look like a normal book but it's part of the cult, so never touch it.
>not sure why she even had it
Grandma got it because A. of the ubiquitous TV ads in the 80s and early 90s, B. she picked up a neat looking paperback at Goodwill for 50 cents, or C. she was gifted it by a scientologist or someone else taken in by A.
Scientologists hand out Dianetics to their friends because they think it's going to save them. It's like Mormons gifting the Book of Mormon or Dittoheads gifting The Way Things Ought To Be
Honestly as much as we give Mormons shit, every one that has come to my door has been nothing but respectful and chill. I think it's mostly cause it's young dudes who are mostly just as uncomfortable knocking on doors as I am answering it, and they are happy not to get the door slammed in their face. I generally ask if they would like some water and how their travels have been after making it clear I'm not interested in the religious aspect.
He lost the copyright to Dianetics in the 50’s in a bankruptcy lawsuit, so he started Scientology as a way to continue monetizing it. They eventually reacquired the rights to the book though.
Yep and it basically was just a religiony version of his Dianetics pseudoscience. He didn’t even form the space alien part of the religious mythology until years later.
Fun fact, you’re not even told about the aliens and stuff until you’ve reached a certain level in the church, which you attain by donating massive amounts of money. The heads of the religion even deny the Xenu stuff to this day, even though there is tons of proof (including documents the church had to surrender in court) that it’s what they believe.
>Yup. L Ron was selling a self improvement book with Dianetics.
*Two* crazy religions were based on Dianetics also: The Nation of Islam and Scientology. In fact, Louis Farrakhan encouraged followers of the Nation of Islam to fully embrace Scientology.
Also, L. Ron Hubbard's wife had consulted with psychiatrists about his behavior and they had recommended that Hubbard be institutionalized.
I think that began Hubbard's hatred of psychiatry.
Based on the things he said and did, I absolutely think he should have been institutionalized or imprisoned. He was an evil man.
Before he he turned Dianetics into Scientology, he, as a world class narcissist, thought it was a legitimate scientific discovery. He sent copies of the book to leading psychiatrists, universities, and such, expecting them to blown away and make him the founder of a new school of psychiatry. When they didn't...
No he wouldnt. He lacks a lot of the necessary markers for schizophrenia. He had high degrees of paranoia, but that's not the same thing as schizophrenia just because paranoid schizophrenia exists.
He is like a textbook narcissist though. Which does have features that can exhibit strong antisocial and paranoid tendencies, which is what you're probably mistaking for schizophrenia. (Although arguably his paranoia was justified since he was running a cult and breaking the law and did indeed end up dying actively on the lam)
The gobblygook that got really fucking weird wasn't sincere beliefs. Hubbard knew he was lying. He had a vivid imagination and was definitely delusional, but he wasn't hallucinating. He just made shit up a lot and was also a textbook narcissist
It’s actually even more personal than that. When L. Ron Hubbard released Dianetics in 1950 he had a positive view of psychology and psychiatry and wanted his thoughts to accepted be accepted by them, even if trained professionals paid him no heed. Hubbard hero worshipped two psychiatrists when he was young and worked mental health charities before writing Dianetics. A lot of Scientology is just based on specific neurosis of L. Ron Hubbard, like his obsession with the navy resulting in the Sea Org.
Then a year later in 1951 his wife Sara Northrup went to see psychiatrist because Hubbard was becoming increasingly paranoid and physically abusive. The psychiatrist said, “it sounds like he’s a paranoid schizophrenic and you should look into getting him institutionalized because it sounds like you’re in great danger”.
She gave Hubbard an ultimatum, either he agrees to psychiatric treatment or she’s leaving the marriage with their one year-old daughter Alexis. When Hubbard heard this, he flipped out and declared war on psychiatry. He said she’s in league with the devils, that is the psychiatrists, and he’d rather kill their daughter than have Sara raise her.
Then after she left with their daughter he came to kidnap first Alexis when she was with a babysitter and then used to the girl to blackmail Sara into going with two staff members from the Dianetics Foundation. Instead bringing Sara to her daughter as promised, Hubbard had locked up while he looked for a psychiatrist who will declare her insane and failed. He forced Sara to sign a form saying their daughter chose to live with him voluntarily in exchange for telling her where Alexis was held. After she signed he refused to honor the promise, instead telling her he chopped up their baby into tiny pieces because she left him.
Hubbard then flew from Palm Springs to Chicago so a quack psychologist would declare him “not insane” to refute Sara’s allegations against him. He then wrote a letter to the FBI accusing Sara and her new boyfriend (Miles Hollister, a former Dianetics employee) of being communists, he also said Sara was a drug addict under coercion by the communists. He then wrote a second letter to the FBI saying he’d gave a $10,000 reward to anyone who can cure his wayward wife with Dianetics. The FBI annotated the letters with note “Appears mental.” and disregarded them.
Sara report the kidnapping to the police but they dismissed it as just a “domestic dispute”. However, the incident did make it into the news where headlines reportd “Cult Founder Accused of Tot Kidnap" and “Dianetic' Hubbard Accused of Plot to Kidnap Wife”. To escape justice Hubbard fled to Cuba, where according to Hunbard’s estranged son Ronald DeWolf, he received psychiatric treatment. Eventually he and Sara officially divorced, with Sara getting custody of their daughter in a settlement that included a public statement saying she thought Hubbard was a “fine and brilliant man”.
Dianetics was ruined by the scandal. He lost the rights to his book and tried to start a new foundation, the Wichita Foundation, which also went bankrupt. In 1954 he declared the discovery of a “new science” beyond Dianetics called Scientology. It was at this point when he took his war with psychiatrists fully public. Until 1955 he still described himself as a misunderstood genius of psychology like Freud was in the beginning and frequently praised the man. Then in 1955 he publicly denounced “the psychiatrist-psychologist-psychoanalyst clique” as evil and communist and responsible for all his failures in life and made that a central tenet of his new cult.
>He then wrote a second letter to the FBI saying he’d gave a $10,000 reward to anyone who can cure his wayward wife with Dianetics. The FBI annotated the letters with note “Appears mental.” and disregarded them.
Lmao awesome.
Is there a book you learned all this from?
John Atack's Let's Sell These People a Piece of Blue Sky (the first edition was called "A Piece of Blue Sky) and Bare-Face Messiah by Russell Miller. The first one is an expose by a former Scientologist and the second one is a biography of L. Ron Hubbard.
As a former astronomer (well I still am, just not as a professional), I can safely say we don't care about people's beliefs in astrology or anything else, but merely get annoyed when folks want to inject astrology into the field; then we will either ignore or mock you.
Probably not, because like Scientology hating psychology/psychiatry, it's a hatred born from fear, in this case fear of being uncovered as complete horseshit.
Hubbard talked about this and "fair game" is part of scientology. They deliberately attack people, call them pedophiles, etc.
Read about Operation Snow White:
> Operation Snow White was a criminal conspiracy by the Church of Scientology during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder, L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations into and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members in more than 30 countries.[1] It was one of the largest infiltrations of the United States government in history,[2] with up to 5,000 covert agents.[3] This operation also exposed the Scientology plot "Operation Freakout", because Operation Snow White was the case that initiated the U.S. government's investigation of the Church.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White
In other countries, Scientology is illegal.
I'm sure that's a byproduct that this cult does not mind, but the actual reason Scientology has issues with psychology ain't based on some sinister thought out plan to control people.
It's because Hubbard was a nutjob, and his strong feelings on the matter extended to the cult he founded.
Yeah but few do it like Scientology where fair game rules mean you are morally allowed or compelled to do anything that hurts the individual’s reputation.
♩♬ Hey baby, I hear the Thetans a-callin'
E-Meters and scrambled brains
And maybe I seem a bit confused
Yeah maybe, but I'm feelin' clear
But I don't know what to do with those E-Meters and scrambled brains
They're callin' again
Xenu has left the building!
That quote is great, but the article is not.
> Rebecca's lack of guesting in the Seattle-based spin-off wasn't because the broadcasting network or the Frasier executives didn't want to feature her — it was Alley's decision to not appear in the award-winning sitcom. The decision was a personal choice from the actress that stemmed from being a member of the Church of Scientology; Alley was raised as a Methodist but became a Scientologist in 1979 and remains one to this day. Before she was even invited to make an appearance on Frasier, Alley announced that there's no way that she's partaking in the project as recalled by co-creator and executive producer David Lee. This was because the sitcom centered on the medical practices of psychiatrists Frasier and Niles Crane (David Hyde Pierce) — a field Scientologists do not believe in it. According to Lee, he wryly responded "I don't recall asking."
So the first half clearly says the reason wasn’t because the executives didn’t want to feature her, then at the end the quote pretty clearly implies the executives didn’t want to feature her.
Not really a contradiction. It makes it sound like they were fairly neutral on the topic and then she announced she wouldn’t appear without ever being asked.
She probably would have been a guest appearance on one episode playing her character from Cheers, like a lot of the rest of the cast. Not a series regular playing someone else when she had just been in Cheers with him.
She wouldn’t have taken the place of Roz. She would have guest starred on a few episodes. Most of the Cheers cast appeared on Frasier at least once. As others have pointed out Lisa Kudrow was originally cast in Roz’s role long before this issue with Alley came up.
I can't agree. Kristie Alley had legit comedic acting talent. She was completely hilarious in Cheers and the film for richer or poorer with Tim Allen. I have no doubt that she would have done great with her career.
But it was all squandered on her worship of an organization that can only described as the opposite of knowledge.
Cheers with Diane was infinitely better. Rebecca started off as an interesting character. Strong firm woman, but trying to show her softer side privately to some of the other characters. But the second she turned into a crybaby it was ruined. If it weren't for Lilith I would have stopped right at Rebecca.
Yea, I had never watched through the show fully so a few years back, I went through it. And I bet it felt more gradual at the time, being weekly, and then having offseasons, but fuck did it feel jarring how everything shifted from Diane to Rebecca. It felt like it was constantly trying to find its identity again, getting wackier and more over the top.
Unfortunately she was never mentally healthy. She had a long term eating disorder along with bipolar. Being in Scientology certainly didn't help that, but her problems existed long before that.
Yeah as someone who is diagnosed as having *both* GAD and Bipolar Type 2: without a good support system and the right meds, it can feel you're already at the behind at the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs. If you've been undiagnosed long term (like I was) it's basically impossible to "think your way out of it" because your brain is already working against you. Modern medicine has to be involved.
Man, the downfall of Kirstie Alley was painful for the 80s kid in me. She was THE woman back then. And somehow ended up tabloid fat-fodder and brainwashed by not one but two cults. Rebecca Howe would never.
Psychiatry is the biggest sin in scientology. It's seen as a pseudo science and ranked very low on the table of enlightenment, along with homosexuality and heinous crimes like paedophilia.
They brainwashed her to think like that so they could take her money. It wasn't really a personal decision.
They even have a lobbying organization to oppose it:
> The Citizens Commission on Human Rights International (CCHR) is an anti-psychiatry lobbying organization established in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz. Headquartered in Los Angeles, California, its stated mission is to "eradicate abuses committed under the guise of mental health and enact patient and consumer protections."[5] It is regarded by most non-Scientologists as a Scientology front group whose purpose is to push the organization's anti-psychiatry agenda.[14]
If you’ve ever seen someone pushing the theory that mass shootings are caused by young adults taking anti-psychotic or anti-depressants, then it came from the CCHR.
Wow, I’ve heard of Szasz, and even read an article by him. (It was in a collection of articles by experts arguing against the drug war.) I had no idea he was associated with a Scientology front group.
Yeah, and they sneaky promote it like an independent association.
The first time it took me a while to understand who was behind this CCHR. Then in a small corner of the site I found a society's name with I could then connect to some Scientolgy offices.
Sneaky bastards.
That’s how I discovered it. Someone kept posting studies trying to show a causal relationship between anti-depressants and mass shootings, but those sources all kept going right back to CCHR. That’s when I realized it’s a Scientology front
And it's all because L R Hubbard's wife wanted him institutionalized because he was an absolute nutcase...
So he went to war with psychiatrists instead of admitting maybe he was a bit fucking off.
How is it this dude amassed such a large following? How can most of the world look at that dude and see an obvious grifter nut job but the thousands of followers see Jesus or whatever they see him as? Like what is going on psychologically that allows large amounts of people to follow obvious fraudsters?
I mean I’m stupid too lol. Like I’m not above average intelligence and yet if I google him he clearly just wanted to make money? Do Scientologists not google the guy who started their whole movement? Do they think his bio is a lie? Surely inside the cult his bio looks way different than the one most of us know of a science fiction writer who’s most famous quote is about how the easiest way to make money is by starting a religion. Do Scientologists not know about this quote? Do they know but think it’s a lie? Do they know that he was a science fiction writer before starting Scientology? I have so many damn questions!!!!
A lot of people really just NEED to believe in something big. They crave a sense of structure and purpose from on high that religion offers them. I've known so many people that realized the church that they grew up with was bullshit and turned against it, but instead of going atheist or agnostic just sought out another church, often seemingly blindly ignoring the similarities to the one they left, so long as the new religion touts something that is the opposite of the religion they left behind.
For example, I've dated several women over the years who grew up in a conservative Christian household and turned against that religion, only to replace it with crystal-healing vague neopaganism, which wouldn't be so bad but they all either fall for, or try to cash in on, the snake oil scams that come with woo.
I always think of the George Carlin quote, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
Sort of explains it, but it's still genuinely surprising people buy the Scientology stuff.
> How can most of the world look at that dude and see an obvious grifter nut job but the thousands of followers see Jesus or whatever they see him as?
Same as with any other cult. *Same as with any religion*.
To be fair, most scientologists these days are second generation, they've grown up in it. When Scientology was at it's peak, information was a lot harder to fact check. Scientologists are strictly prohibited from googling or otherwise looking at any information about Scientology that doesn't come straight from the church and they think literally everyone is out to get them.
> It's seen as a pseudo science
That’s rich…
Coming from the folks who say millions of years ago, Lord Xenu chased our ancestors across the galaxy in DC-3 shaped faster-than-light space planes —
as they were trying to escape planetary income tax…
… only to be blown up with hydrogen bombs around volcanoes
this is what another poster said on a different post years ago
>
*In 1951, L. Ron Hubbard's wife Sara went to a psychiatrist to obtain advice about his increasingly violent and irrational behavior, and was told that he probably needed to be institutionalized and that she was in serious danger. She gave Hubbard an ultimatum: get treatment or she would leave with the baby. He was furious and threatened to kill their daughter Alexis rather than let the Dr. care for her. Sara later recalled: "He didn't want her to be brought up by me because I was in league with the doctors. He thought I had thrown in with the psychiatrists, with the devils."*
>*In February 1951, L. Ron Hubbard kidnapped his wife Sara. After her release, she filed for divorce, charging Hubbard with causing her "extreme cruelty, great mental anguish and physical suffering".*
>From this point on Hubbard wrote of psychiatry as evil and these beliefs still remain today in the "church."
>[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry#Public_allegation_of_Hubbard_having_psychiatric_issues)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/721tq3/comment/dnf5nqi/](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/721tq3/comment/dnf5nqi/)
My personal theory why Scientology is so big with Hollywood is that a bunch of really influential but very "eccentric" celebrities had their behaviors diagnosed. So they sought out Scientology and gave it strong backing to discredit the entire field of study to refute the diagnosis and enable their behavior.
It's not so big with Hollywood. It just appears that way because they promote the shit out of the ones they have. If you were to do a study, the amount of celebrities compared to the random civilian idiots would be negligible. Probably the same ratio of celebrities who like Trump.
They claim to be accepting but that's just to lure you in. There have been reports of homosexuals being detained in "the hole" within Scientology's Gold Camp for "auditing" or "correction".
There are people that have come out and exposed them. Michelle LeClair was one of them.
Not quite. She's required to report back to Sea Org per her [Billion Year Contract](https://www.scientology-london.org.uk/faq/church-management/is-it-true-that-people-in-the-sea-org-sign-a-billion-year-contract.html)
It contradicts their entire "theology". Basically, they believe that negative emotions are caused by immortal alien souls, or thetans, which can conveniently be cleared up only with the intervention of their professionals with very reasonable fees, along with access to their reasonably priced literature and tools.
I'd love to know Scientology's reason for this. But the again, I'm sure it wont make any sense to me. Then I'll ask them to expand on their reason, and expand further, and then I'll end up as a member.
Scientology's entire belief system is reliant on dismissing psychiatry. Essentially, they believe that all negative emotions and thoughts aren't based in any kind of scientific explanation, but rather are a manifestation of alien souls (thetans) acting up, which requires the intervention of Scientology and its very expensive sessions, tools, and literature to fix. Rejecting psychiatry isn't just a result of regular cult behavior, but absolutely vital to the entirely of L Ron's quack system.
It would have been extremely funny if Rebecca had shown up on the show as a born again Scientologist and given Frasier all of the standard scientology lines on psychiatry.
MAN! Brilliant idea!!! Can you imaging how much fun the writers would have had writing hilarious snobby quips for Miles to deliver? And lines for Frasier as he legitimately tries to help her question the teachings? And Grammer's and DHP's enjoyment in delivering those lines? and our enjoyment watching that episode?
They must have toyed with writing an episode like this. It would have been gold. Gold Jerry. Gold.
This is a true story written very briefly
Years ago I used to work in Tampa airport
One day I was returning from break and I was running late and there was a blind corner
I nearly ran over/trampled an older/elderly lady who was trying to keep a low profile and stick to the corners.
It was Kirstie Alley. I very quickly said oops excuse me thanks for the entertainment Rebecca and got back to work.
And that’s my Kirstie Alley story about how I almost knocked over a celebrity
That was my understanding too. Kirstie was a huge Trekkie to the point she’d apparently wear the ears home after the shooting wrapped up for the day. Her agent supposedly tried to push for more money without telling her and that got the part recast.
super ironic, but at a certain OT level of scientology, according to them, you gain the ability to “heal yourself” of illnesses like cancer. kirstie alley died of stage four colon cancer. wonder why she didn’t cure herself 🤔
Yeah, I've been watching the show through it's entirety lately. She's sort of annoying. Granted, Diane could certainly get annoying too, but she was written to be annoying.
They started her out great. A strong-willed business woman to counter Sam's womanizing ways. It was going so well. Then they decided to make her a blathering trope of a woman who couldn't find success on her own so she either needed to marry a rich man or have a baby in order to feel fulfilled. They absolutely destroyed her character and made her the show's punching bag.
I will never forget or forgive Tom Cruise for going on tv slamming Brooke Shields for going on meds due to postpartum depression.
Psychiatry saves lives. It saved mine when I was 15 and continues to years later.
Cults are always opposed to anything that might make members realize they are in a cult.
Scientology has a specific bone to pick with psychology/psychiatry, because they’re basically selling a competing product, and before it even turned into a cult cult the author has a very dim view of the field.
Yup. L Ron was selling a self improvement book with Dianetics. He wasn't selling a cult initially. He was selling a shitty little book he claimed could solve all your problems if you just dismissed everything the "quacks" are saying and listen to him instead.
And Scientology still markets itself somewhere between self help and religion. It’s why they get really upset when you share the alternate mythology shit like how they think your depression is because your alien ghosts have generational trauma.
You’re not supposed to learn the space opera lore until you pay for enough courses to become a level 3 Operating Thetan. It’s premium DLC content. Scientology is the one religion where you actually have to pay to unlock their full theology package.
Former Scientologists have described the deep lore courses as a “bait and switch”
You have to make sure they are in too deep before bringing out the ghost aliens
Sunk cost fallacy is a hell of a drug
Not just that. By this point you have already revealed to them all the skeletons in your closet.
And the skeletons in your alien ghosts’ closets.
The problem is that now, everyone knows about the ghost aliens, so I imagine it becomes near impossible to gain any new recruits.
If you're a high muckety mucky in scientology, then you would rephrase or modify the original story to be easier digestible to 21st century recruit. For example, evangelical christians dismissed evolution by saying dinosaurs were around during Adam and Eve's time and didn't make it on the Ark.
This guy understands how cults work. The really old ones start evolving until they’re called “religion.”
You’re here for the self help shit, you’ve dumped money, and now you’re asked to give more money, and you get L. Ron Hubbard’s rejected science fiction novel (and he got Battlefield Earth published). The reason the crazy stuff is last is because by that point they’ve fed you enough small crazy that you’re properly primed. But I’ve also heard of some folks that hit that point and suddenly realize what they’ve been dumping money into the whole time.
But why do they even bother? They've got your money, they have enough blackmail material to keep getting your money, so why do they bother with the mythology at that point?
Because they're brainwashed too.
in vs out crowd mentality. you feel like you’re in a special group that knows “the truth” and therefore only those you deem worthy can be like you. it’s gatekeeping at a religious level
Cause the only people who are allowed to show it to you are the people who couldn’t get themselves to leave the cult after seeing it themselves.
So it’s a pyramid scheme
The mythology is 1) presented by people who saw it and hung around 2) copyrighted and controlled by a foundation. The second is profit motive (also a way to keep it secret, they’ll sue anyone exposing it directly for copyright violation), but the first is the real thing. I’m being deliberately dismissive of the Xenu shit. It’s not even good science fiction. Hell, it’s not even Hubbard’s best work and if the dude hadn’t founded a “religion”, I guarantee you none of his shit would be remembered fondly by anyone. But you gotta consider that these are the people who got in deep. The “secret, sacred history that you had to prove yourself to learn, that marks you as a very special person in the only social circle you’re allowed to have” is the LAST thing they tell you. Like, this would be like if there was secret unlockable content to Catholicism you only got access to if you were a cardinal. Like, you live your whole adult life as a priest and at the age of 40 something you become one of the guys eligible for the Papacy and they tell you all the Dan Brown novels are real, or that Jesus came back decades ago and is just chilling in Reno. Deliberately silly examples, but that level of “secret.” And Scientology has been going long enough that there’s people well into middle aged who were raised in the church. We’re well into boiling a frog metaphor here.
> The “secret, sacred history that you had to prove yourself to learn, that marks you as a very special person in the only social circle you’re allowed to have” Yeah this shit works incredibly well on some humans I guess. Pretty much how qanon and conspiracy theories work.. there's nothing idiots love more than to feel special and smarter than others
Lol. "Space opera lore" and "premium DLC content". That's awesome. I'm going to use that when I discuss scientology in the future.
The disgusting part is that almost understates what is going on. That is the only "religion," I know where you could get sued for helping spread the word. Basically they sue you for pirating their IP. Even the most money hungry game studio stops somewhere, not Scientology.
Would highly recommend this video from a couple months ago for everyone who wants a little extra insight too, from a former member. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPpKgU2zT-4 Edit: The guy in the video, not me lol.
You mean if i write fanfiction about my alien space ghosts having (traumatising) adventers, they're gonna go Ann Rice on my ass?
From what I remember, Thetan Levels are more likely to be assigned to a person who's 'donated' about 200k to the cause, and anyone lower than TL3 isn't supposed to be told, or act as if they know, about anything above their paygrade. It's like watching a class of kindergarteners play pretend that they're a form of government.
They broke the IRS and FBI. Those kindergartners beat into submission the last line. Their dogma is nonsense, but they’re not playing at it.
Scientology took notes from Mormons and "improved" on it for maximum profit
I once received a pamphlet - closer to a book really, was maybe 30 pages - in my mailbox all about "clean living". Full of life advice, was pretty abstinence heavy, I think there was something about renouncing sexual vices at one point too. Thing was way too big, and well produced, to just be random junk mail. First thing I did was check back cover, and right at the bottom was a whole paragraph about how this book was based off of Dianetics, and that the company that produced the pamphlet was legal distinct and separate from the church of Scientology pursuant to law XYZ. Straight into the bin it went.
Wait, are we saying that there are splinter groups of scientologists now? It's like they're a real religion, [sectarian differences](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/the-weekly-roll/ch-8-a-tale-of-a-party-long-gone/viewer?title_no=358889&episode_no=8) and all! Or do you think this was just real scientologists in a "I'm a normal human" mask with the goal to get you into scientology?
There have been several [splinter groups](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology\)). The Church of Scientology calls them "squirrels" and does what it can to shut them down.
That's fucking hilarious. We have a religion, created from whole cloth less than 100 years ago, and it already has multiple splinter groups! I think it really just says something about the human condition.
I mean, I can’t remember the history super well but I think the same thing happened with Christianity (might’ve taken 100 years), and certainly with Mormonism. Islam (I think) had the Suffi/Suni split after Mohammed died. I agree about the human condition, just pointing out it is normal for religion/cults to splinter early.
Almost certainly the second one. And if it's not, I don't want to find out.
We inherited a copy of Dianetics from one of my grandmas (she was never a scientologist, not sure why she even had it.) I remember seeing the cover and thinking it was some sort of cool sci-fi novel, I took it to school to read in homeroom class. From the first word it's just drivel, I don't think I got 10 pages into it before being like "what....the fuck." I was probably only 15 at the time but I remember it reading like the ramblings of a mad man.
In the 80s they had a commercial with a cool volcano, as a kid I had no idea what it was for but it seemed science fictiony
My dad bought the book because of that commercial. He said he got through the first chapter and put it on his shelf. He told me if the power goes out and we start running low on kindling use the Dianetics book first.
My parents bought the book, too. I found it a long time ago. But I suspect they bought it for entertainment value as much as curiosity. I tried to read it, lost it at N-grams. I did skim it though, it might work, some of Hubbard's ideas aren't terrible, but a good 80% are trash. The other 20% is shit other self help gurus will tell you for cheap or free.
[This commercial?](https://youtu.be/BHoCJzymz_Y?si=K06tDi9YkmCZHF0P)
They were sold right next to Sinead O'Connor's book I remember them well plastered all over book stores. It was a definite PR ploy to try and convince people it was "normal" and not a cult through underselling what it really was
Yup, pretty cool hand animation too.
The volcano iconography is likely because according to Scientology, a galactic overlord called Xenu brought billions of his people to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft 75 million years ago, stacked them around volcanoes, and killed them with hydrogen bombs. The souls then left the bodies of those aliens (called thetans) and roamed the earth, until they attached and started living inside humans. We then suffer from their trauma and require Scientology to cure us. This is what Tom Cruise etc all believe.
You left out the best part, that the people were gathered up by psychiatrists who were doing income tax audits
As a kid I thought it looked cool AF but of course I had no idea what it was. Thankfully, I was raised catholic and didn't get indoctrinated in to any crazy beliefs /s
I just remember seeing commercials for “Dianetics” while watching Star Trek and Night Court reruns on the local UHF station after school. 11 year old me thought it was weird at the time (both the commercial and the book.)
Yeah, someone gave me a copy of the book. Not exactly sure why they had it. I too only made it through the beginning before deciding it was such dreck that it wasn't even worth reading to laugh at or criticize. As I recall they constantly try to redefine words. Which I think is actually a pretty common thing for cults to do (although some groups kind of do this without exactly being a cult, usually just insufferable).
They used to sell the Dianetics book in the grocery store in the early 1980s here. I remember thinking it was a science fiction book and picked it up, my dad slapped it out of my hand so fast and put it back - once we got outside, he explained that the store owner is in a cult and the book is made to look like a normal book but it's part of the cult, so never touch it.
It was sold EVERYWHERE in the 80's. You couldn't escape it.
>not sure why she even had it Grandma got it because A. of the ubiquitous TV ads in the 80s and early 90s, B. she picked up a neat looking paperback at Goodwill for 50 cents, or C. she was gifted it by a scientologist or someone else taken in by A. Scientologists hand out Dianetics to their friends because they think it's going to save them. It's like Mormons gifting the Book of Mormon or Dittoheads gifting The Way Things Ought To Be
Honestly as much as we give Mormons shit, every one that has come to my door has been nothing but respectful and chill. I think it's mostly cause it's young dudes who are mostly just as uncomfortable knocking on doors as I am answering it, and they are happy not to get the door slammed in their face. I generally ask if they would like some water and how their travels have been after making it clear I'm not interested in the religious aspect.
He lost the copyright to Dianetics in the 50’s in a bankruptcy lawsuit, so he started Scientology as a way to continue monetizing it. They eventually reacquired the rights to the book though.
Yep and it basically was just a religiony version of his Dianetics pseudoscience. He didn’t even form the space alien part of the religious mythology until years later. Fun fact, you’re not even told about the aliens and stuff until you’ve reached a certain level in the church, which you attain by donating massive amounts of money. The heads of the religion even deny the Xenu stuff to this day, even though there is tons of proof (including documents the church had to surrender in court) that it’s what they believe.
That's all a cult is, really. Some arrogant prick who taps into a negative belief that morons have, and cashes in on it.
>Yup. L Ron was selling a self improvement book with Dianetics. *Two* crazy religions were based on Dianetics also: The Nation of Islam and Scientology. In fact, Louis Farrakhan encouraged followers of the Nation of Islam to fully embrace Scientology.
Also, L. Ron Hubbard's wife had consulted with psychiatrists about his behavior and they had recommended that Hubbard be institutionalized. I think that began Hubbard's hatred of psychiatry. Based on the things he said and did, I absolutely think he should have been institutionalized or imprisoned. He was an evil man.
Before he he turned Dianetics into Scientology, he, as a world class narcissist, thought it was a legitimate scientific discovery. He sent copies of the book to leading psychiatrists, universities, and such, expecting them to blown away and make him the founder of a new school of psychiatry. When they didn't...
“I’m not crazy, I just have alien ghosts in me” said the totally sane man.
I can't believe I had to scroll down this far to see this factoid. I'm certain he would be diagnosed as schizophrenic.
Can't recommend the documentary Going Clear enough it's great and goes in depth on scientology and L Ron Hubbard and how terrible they are
No he wouldnt. He lacks a lot of the necessary markers for schizophrenia. He had high degrees of paranoia, but that's not the same thing as schizophrenia just because paranoid schizophrenia exists. He is like a textbook narcissist though. Which does have features that can exhibit strong antisocial and paranoid tendencies, which is what you're probably mistaking for schizophrenia. (Although arguably his paranoia was justified since he was running a cult and breaking the law and did indeed end up dying actively on the lam) The gobblygook that got really fucking weird wasn't sincere beliefs. Hubbard knew he was lying. He had a vivid imagination and was definitely delusional, but he wasn't hallucinating. He just made shit up a lot and was also a textbook narcissist
It’s actually even more personal than that. When L. Ron Hubbard released Dianetics in 1950 he had a positive view of psychology and psychiatry and wanted his thoughts to accepted be accepted by them, even if trained professionals paid him no heed. Hubbard hero worshipped two psychiatrists when he was young and worked mental health charities before writing Dianetics. A lot of Scientology is just based on specific neurosis of L. Ron Hubbard, like his obsession with the navy resulting in the Sea Org. Then a year later in 1951 his wife Sara Northrup went to see psychiatrist because Hubbard was becoming increasingly paranoid and physically abusive. The psychiatrist said, “it sounds like he’s a paranoid schizophrenic and you should look into getting him institutionalized because it sounds like you’re in great danger”. She gave Hubbard an ultimatum, either he agrees to psychiatric treatment or she’s leaving the marriage with their one year-old daughter Alexis. When Hubbard heard this, he flipped out and declared war on psychiatry. He said she’s in league with the devils, that is the psychiatrists, and he’d rather kill their daughter than have Sara raise her. Then after she left with their daughter he came to kidnap first Alexis when she was with a babysitter and then used to the girl to blackmail Sara into going with two staff members from the Dianetics Foundation. Instead bringing Sara to her daughter as promised, Hubbard had locked up while he looked for a psychiatrist who will declare her insane and failed. He forced Sara to sign a form saying their daughter chose to live with him voluntarily in exchange for telling her where Alexis was held. After she signed he refused to honor the promise, instead telling her he chopped up their baby into tiny pieces because she left him. Hubbard then flew from Palm Springs to Chicago so a quack psychologist would declare him “not insane” to refute Sara’s allegations against him. He then wrote a letter to the FBI accusing Sara and her new boyfriend (Miles Hollister, a former Dianetics employee) of being communists, he also said Sara was a drug addict under coercion by the communists. He then wrote a second letter to the FBI saying he’d gave a $10,000 reward to anyone who can cure his wayward wife with Dianetics. The FBI annotated the letters with note “Appears mental.” and disregarded them. Sara report the kidnapping to the police but they dismissed it as just a “domestic dispute”. However, the incident did make it into the news where headlines reportd “Cult Founder Accused of Tot Kidnap" and “Dianetic' Hubbard Accused of Plot to Kidnap Wife”. To escape justice Hubbard fled to Cuba, where according to Hunbard’s estranged son Ronald DeWolf, he received psychiatric treatment. Eventually he and Sara officially divorced, with Sara getting custody of their daughter in a settlement that included a public statement saying she thought Hubbard was a “fine and brilliant man”. Dianetics was ruined by the scandal. He lost the rights to his book and tried to start a new foundation, the Wichita Foundation, which also went bankrupt. In 1954 he declared the discovery of a “new science” beyond Dianetics called Scientology. It was at this point when he took his war with psychiatrists fully public. Until 1955 he still described himself as a misunderstood genius of psychology like Freud was in the beginning and frequently praised the man. Then in 1955 he publicly denounced “the psychiatrist-psychologist-psychoanalyst clique” as evil and communist and responsible for all his failures in life and made that a central tenet of his new cult.
So basically Scientology is a schizophrenic delusion brought to reality? That tracks.
>He then wrote a second letter to the FBI saying he’d gave a $10,000 reward to anyone who can cure his wayward wife with Dianetics. The FBI annotated the letters with note “Appears mental.” and disregarded them. Lmao awesome. Is there a book you learned all this from?
John Atack's Let's Sell These People a Piece of Blue Sky (the first edition was called "A Piece of Blue Sky) and Bare-Face Messiah by Russell Miller. The first one is an expose by a former Scientologist and the second one is a biography of L. Ron Hubbard.
It’s why some astrologists hate astronomy and astronomers. But not the same level, lol.
Isn’t it usually the other way around?
As a former astronomer (well I still am, just not as a professional), I can safely say we don't care about people's beliefs in astrology or anything else, but merely get annoyed when folks want to inject astrology into the field; then we will either ignore or mock you.
Probably not, because like Scientology hating psychology/psychiatry, it's a hatred born from fear, in this case fear of being uncovered as complete horseshit.
Wait, are you saying worshipping aliens living inside volcanoes is horseshit?
Plus, that’s the complete opposite of hucksters hating the actual science that explains what they’re trying to sell you.
Any family member or friend who challenges their belief gets branded a Suppressive Person and is isolated from them. Then you got all the blackmail.
Right, they always want to isolate you.
that's pretty standard for a cult
To be fair, Frasier was based on pop-psychology, which is fairly permissive of bullshit and fraud.
On its own though, I doubt quite as damaging as a cult’s organized efforts toward control.
Hubbard talked about this and "fair game" is part of scientology. They deliberately attack people, call them pedophiles, etc. Read about Operation Snow White: > Operation Snow White was a criminal conspiracy by the Church of Scientology during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder, L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations into and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members in more than 30 countries.[1] It was one of the largest infiltrations of the United States government in history,[2] with up to 5,000 covert agents.[3] This operation also exposed the Scientology plot "Operation Freakout", because Operation Snow White was the case that initiated the U.S. government's investigation of the Church.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White In other countries, Scientology is illegal.
I'm sure that's a byproduct that this cult does not mind, but the actual reason Scientology has issues with psychology ain't based on some sinister thought out plan to control people. It's because Hubbard was a nutjob, and his strong feelings on the matter extended to the cult he founded.
Yeah but few do it like Scientology where fair game rules mean you are morally allowed or compelled to do anything that hurts the individual’s reputation.
Tossed salad and scrambled brains
Theyre callin again…
Shelly Miscavige has left the building
Are we sure she isn’t just hidden in the basement?
Thank you goodnight Clearwater we love you
Aren't the scrambled eggs already a metaphor for exactly that though
♩♬ Hey baby, I hear the Thetans a-callin' E-Meters and scrambled brains And maybe I seem a bit confused Yeah maybe, but I'm feelin' clear But I don't know what to do with those E-Meters and scrambled brains They're callin' again Xenu has left the building!
Lol I remember when Kirstie Alley was relevant
["I don't recall asking."](https://screenrant.com/frasier-cheers-rebecca-kirstie-alley-no-return-scientology-reason/) -David Lee, executive producer.
That's perfect
That quote is great, but the article is not. > Rebecca's lack of guesting in the Seattle-based spin-off wasn't because the broadcasting network or the Frasier executives didn't want to feature her — it was Alley's decision to not appear in the award-winning sitcom. The decision was a personal choice from the actress that stemmed from being a member of the Church of Scientology; Alley was raised as a Methodist but became a Scientologist in 1979 and remains one to this day. Before she was even invited to make an appearance on Frasier, Alley announced that there's no way that she's partaking in the project as recalled by co-creator and executive producer David Lee. This was because the sitcom centered on the medical practices of psychiatrists Frasier and Niles Crane (David Hyde Pierce) — a field Scientologists do not believe in it. According to Lee, he wryly responded "I don't recall asking." So the first half clearly says the reason wasn’t because the executives didn’t want to feature her, then at the end the quote pretty clearly implies the executives didn’t want to feature her.
Not really a contradiction. It makes it sound like they were fairly neutral on the topic and then she announced she wouldn’t appear without ever being asked.
I didn't appear in guardian's of the galaxy. Not because they didn't want me, but because I didn't want to work with Chris Pratt.
I don't recall asking.
[удалено]
Fax to Variety, Vanity Fair, and Entertainment Tonight. Communications existed before Twitter.
I can't tell if this was written by AI or just an idiot.
"You can't fire me, I quit!" vs "You can't quit, you're fired!"
In this case though "You can't fire me, I quit!" "You can't quit, you never worked here"
That's what makes this so difficult.
Honestly the show was probably better for it
Pretty sure that's why we got Roz. The show was definitely better for it.
She probably would have been a guest appearance on one episode playing her character from Cheers, like a lot of the rest of the cast. Not a series regular playing someone else when she had just been in Cheers with him.
She wouldn’t have taken the place of Roz. She would have guest starred on a few episodes. Most of the Cheers cast appeared on Frasier at least once. As others have pointed out Lisa Kudrow was originally cast in Roz’s role long before this issue with Alley came up.
I can't agree. Kristie Alley had legit comedic acting talent. She was completely hilarious in Cheers and the film for richer or poorer with Tim Allen. I have no doubt that she would have done great with her career. But it was all squandered on her worship of an organization that can only described as the opposite of knowledge.
And yet I can't help but feel like Cheers with Diane was the better Cheers. That's all opinion, though.
Cheers with Diane was infinitely better. Rebecca started off as an interesting character. Strong firm woman, but trying to show her softer side privately to some of the other characters. But the second she turned into a crybaby it was ruined. If it weren't for Lilith I would have stopped right at Rebecca.
Yea, I had never watched through the show fully so a few years back, I went through it. And I bet it felt more gradual at the time, being weekly, and then having offseasons, but fuck did it feel jarring how everything shifted from Diane to Rebecca. It felt like it was constantly trying to find its identity again, getting wackier and more over the top.
Unfortunately she was never mentally healthy. She had a long term eating disorder along with bipolar. Being in Scientology certainly didn't help that, but her problems existed long before that.
Mental health issues + Scientology = tragedy.
Yeah as someone who is diagnosed as having *both* GAD and Bipolar Type 2: without a good support system and the right meds, it can feel you're already at the behind at the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs. If you've been undiagnosed long term (like I was) it's basically impossible to "think your way out of it" because your brain is already working against you. Modern medicine has to be involved.
Sad way to leave the world; destroying your career and being a cultist idiot.
Man, the downfall of Kirstie Alley was painful for the 80s kid in me. She was THE woman back then. And somehow ended up tabloid fat-fodder and brainwashed by not one but two cults. Rebecca Howe would never.
The other cult being... Jenny Craig?
"And now you know the rest of the story...."
>Paul Harvey--heard 5 times a day here on your [insert local AM news station]
At the end of her life she was a die hard Trumper.
MAGA
I loved her in It Takes Two
What was the other cult?
MAGA
3 then if you count Jenny Craig.
She was in the cult already before the 80s
Bro It Takes Two was one of my favorite movies as a kid and my intro to Kirstie. Then I got into Star Trek as a preteen and knew her as Saavik.
TIL Kirstie Alley died (in 2022)
Psychiatry is the biggest sin in scientology. It's seen as a pseudo science and ranked very low on the table of enlightenment, along with homosexuality and heinous crimes like paedophilia. They brainwashed her to think like that so they could take her money. It wasn't really a personal decision.
They even have a lobbying organization to oppose it: > The Citizens Commission on Human Rights International (CCHR) is an anti-psychiatry lobbying organization established in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz. Headquartered in Los Angeles, California, its stated mission is to "eradicate abuses committed under the guise of mental health and enact patient and consumer protections."[5] It is regarded by most non-Scientologists as a Scientology front group whose purpose is to push the organization's anti-psychiatry agenda.[14] If you’ve ever seen someone pushing the theory that mass shootings are caused by young adults taking anti-psychotic or anti-depressants, then it came from the CCHR.
Wow, I’ve heard of Szasz, and even read an article by him. (It was in a collection of articles by experts arguing against the drug war.) I had no idea he was associated with a Scientology front group.
Isn't Szasz also a Batman villain?
Close: Victor Zsasz
That cannot be a coincidence...
Yeah, and they sneaky promote it like an independent association. The first time it took me a while to understand who was behind this CCHR. Then in a small corner of the site I found a society's name with I could then connect to some Scientolgy offices. Sneaky bastards.
That’s how I discovered it. Someone kept posting studies trying to show a causal relationship between anti-depressants and mass shootings, but those sources all kept going right back to CCHR. That’s when I realized it’s a Scientology front
Tbf psychiatry in the 60s was fucking crazy...
True but Scientology has been crazy from day one and never stopped.
A self-hating psychiatrist
And it's all because L R Hubbard's wife wanted him institutionalized because he was an absolute nutcase... So he went to war with psychiatrists instead of admitting maybe he was a bit fucking off.
He also had tried to get Dianetics taken seriously by the psychiatry field and they all said no, this book is bullshit
How is it this dude amassed such a large following? How can most of the world look at that dude and see an obvious grifter nut job but the thousands of followers see Jesus or whatever they see him as? Like what is going on psychologically that allows large amounts of people to follow obvious fraudsters?
We underestimate just how stupid and gullible the average person is.
I mean I’m stupid too lol. Like I’m not above average intelligence and yet if I google him he clearly just wanted to make money? Do Scientologists not google the guy who started their whole movement? Do they think his bio is a lie? Surely inside the cult his bio looks way different than the one most of us know of a science fiction writer who’s most famous quote is about how the easiest way to make money is by starting a religion. Do Scientologists not know about this quote? Do they know but think it’s a lie? Do they know that he was a science fiction writer before starting Scientology? I have so many damn questions!!!!
A lot of people really just NEED to believe in something big. They crave a sense of structure and purpose from on high that religion offers them. I've known so many people that realized the church that they grew up with was bullshit and turned against it, but instead of going atheist or agnostic just sought out another church, often seemingly blindly ignoring the similarities to the one they left, so long as the new religion touts something that is the opposite of the religion they left behind. For example, I've dated several women over the years who grew up in a conservative Christian household and turned against that religion, only to replace it with crystal-healing vague neopaganism, which wouldn't be so bad but they all either fall for, or try to cash in on, the snake oil scams that come with woo.
I always think of the George Carlin quote, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." Sort of explains it, but it's still genuinely surprising people buy the Scientology stuff.
> How can most of the world look at that dude and see an obvious grifter nut job but the thousands of followers see Jesus or whatever they see him as? Same as with any other cult. *Same as with any religion*.
To be fair, most scientologists these days are second generation, they've grown up in it. When Scientology was at it's peak, information was a lot harder to fact check. Scientologists are strictly prohibited from googling or otherwise looking at any information about Scientology that doesn't come straight from the church and they think literally everyone is out to get them.
The best TIL is sometimes in the comments
Didn’t he spend like 2 or 3 years in a mental institution when he was young? I think he should’ve never left.
That's just typical Galactic Confederacy propaganda brainwashing.
> It's seen as a pseudo science That’s rich… Coming from the folks who say millions of years ago, Lord Xenu chased our ancestors across the galaxy in DC-3 shaped faster-than-light space planes — as they were trying to escape planetary income tax… … only to be blown up with hydrogen bombs around volcanoes
That's *totally* wrong... they were ***DC-10*** shaped space planes...
this is what another poster said on a different post years ago > *In 1951, L. Ron Hubbard's wife Sara went to a psychiatrist to obtain advice about his increasingly violent and irrational behavior, and was told that he probably needed to be institutionalized and that she was in serious danger. She gave Hubbard an ultimatum: get treatment or she would leave with the baby. He was furious and threatened to kill their daughter Alexis rather than let the Dr. care for her. Sara later recalled: "He didn't want her to be brought up by me because I was in league with the doctors. He thought I had thrown in with the psychiatrists, with the devils."* >*In February 1951, L. Ron Hubbard kidnapped his wife Sara. After her release, she filed for divorce, charging Hubbard with causing her "extreme cruelty, great mental anguish and physical suffering".* >From this point on Hubbard wrote of psychiatry as evil and these beliefs still remain today in the "church." >[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry#Public_allegation_of_Hubbard_having_psychiatric_issues) [https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/721tq3/comment/dnf5nqi/](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/721tq3/comment/dnf5nqi/)
My personal theory why Scientology is so big with Hollywood is that a bunch of really influential but very "eccentric" celebrities had their behaviors diagnosed. So they sought out Scientology and gave it strong backing to discredit the entire field of study to refute the diagnosis and enable their behavior.
It's not so big with Hollywood. It just appears that way because they promote the shit out of the ones they have. If you were to do a study, the amount of celebrities compared to the random civilian idiots would be negligible. Probably the same ratio of celebrities who like Trump.
Scientology opposes homosexuality? Makes no sense if they want to maximize their recruitment pool
They claim to be accepting but that's just to lure you in. There have been reports of homosexuals being detained in "the hole" within Scientology's Gold Camp for "auditing" or "correction". There are people that have come out and exposed them. Michelle LeClair was one of them.
And she died still crazy.
TIL she's dead
Holy shit, either I forgot or just never got the notice.
Yeah and unlike Spock nobody's in a hurry to go recover *her* katra.
She's not dead she's ascended and with the Xenu now.
Not quite. She's required to report back to Sea Org per her [Billion Year Contract](https://www.scientology-london.org.uk/faq/church-management/is-it-true-that-people-in-the-sea-org-sign-a-billion-year-contract.html)
Fell off the bridge at the super adventure club like Chef.
And from cancer. Did she treat it or try and cure it with her mind? Cause if you're clear you're *NEVER* supposed to be sick.
Why do Scientologists have such beef with psychiatry?
LRH's wife tried to have him committed. I guess he took it personal.
Ron l Hubbard tried to publish a book in psychiatry and actual trained psychiatrists thought it was wack pseudo science without rigor.
Because if you realize you’re in a cult with therapy, you’ll leave said cult.
Because well-adjusted people wouldn’t join Scientology.
It contradicts their entire "theology". Basically, they believe that negative emotions are caused by immortal alien souls, or thetans, which can conveniently be cleared up only with the intervention of their professionals with very reasonable fees, along with access to their reasonably priced literature and tools.
I'd love to know Scientology's reason for this. But the again, I'm sure it wont make any sense to me. Then I'll ask them to expand on their reason, and expand further, and then I'll end up as a member.
Scientology's entire belief system is reliant on dismissing psychiatry. Essentially, they believe that all negative emotions and thoughts aren't based in any kind of scientific explanation, but rather are a manifestation of alien souls (thetans) acting up, which requires the intervention of Scientology and its very expensive sessions, tools, and literature to fix. Rejecting psychiatry isn't just a result of regular cult behavior, but absolutely vital to the entirely of L Ron's quack system.
Good luck with Xenu
No questions, no lies.
Many thetans died to bring us this information.
TIL she died. Weird I completely missed that. I mean, 2021 and 2022 weren't *real* years, but still. RIP Saavik 1.
It would have been extremely funny if Rebecca had shown up on the show as a born again Scientologist and given Frasier all of the standard scientology lines on psychiatry.
MAN! Brilliant idea!!! Can you imaging how much fun the writers would have had writing hilarious snobby quips for Miles to deliver? And lines for Frasier as he legitimately tries to help her question the teachings? And Grammer's and DHP's enjoyment in delivering those lines? and our enjoyment watching that episode? They must have toyed with writing an episode like this. It would have been gold. Gold Jerry. Gold.
"You can't trust those psychiatrists, they're all quacks! Now, about your Theta levels..."
This is a true story written very briefly Years ago I used to work in Tampa airport One day I was returning from break and I was running late and there was a blind corner I nearly ran over/trampled an older/elderly lady who was trying to keep a low profile and stick to the corners. It was Kirstie Alley. I very quickly said oops excuse me thanks for the entertainment Rebecca and got back to work. And that’s my Kirstie Alley story about how I almost knocked over a celebrity
What a dope!
Scientologists are such nutjobs.
That and no one asked her to.
Scientology destroyed her career then.
I believe this is why she didn’t return to Star Trek as well.
Nah that was a money dispute and I think it wasn't even her, it was her agent.
That was my understanding too. Kirstie was a huge Trekkie to the point she’d apparently wear the ears home after the shooting wrapped up for the day. Her agent supposedly tried to push for more money without telling her and that got the part recast.
I met her twice, she was a horrible bigot.
Scientologists also cant eat Tossed Salads or Scrambled Eggs.
super ironic, but at a certain OT level of scientology, according to them, you gain the ability to “heal yourself” of illnesses like cancer. kirstie alley died of stage four colon cancer. wonder why she didn’t cure herself 🤔
Kristie Alley was one of the weaker parts of Cheers.
Yeah, I've been watching the show through it's entirety lately. She's sort of annoying. Granted, Diane could certainly get annoying too, but she was written to be annoying.
They started her out great. A strong-willed business woman to counter Sam's womanizing ways. It was going so well. Then they decided to make her a blathering trope of a woman who couldn't find success on her own so she either needed to marry a rich man or have a baby in order to feel fulfilled. They absolutely destroyed her character and made her the show's punching bag.
For me it was when she started crying in every episode.
God I hate scientology
Nothing great was lost. I’m glad her costars didn’t have to put up with her on Frazier too.
They had to put up with Kelsey Grammar, that's plenty
Damn I never knew she was a Tom Cruiser
She was garbage on Cheers anyway.
How did something invented by a bad science fiction author manage to dig its tendrils so fucking deep into Hollywood?
I will never forget or forgive Tom Cruise for going on tv slamming Brooke Shields for going on meds due to postpartum depression. Psychiatry saves lives. It saved mine when I was 15 and continues to years later.
Religions are always opposed to anything that might make members realize they are in a cult.