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GossipIsLove

"German officer Sobievolski, states that a Turkish deserter revealed to Morosini the use to which the Turks had put the Parthenon; expecting that the Venetians would not target a building of such historic importance. Morosini was said to have responded by directing his artillery to aim at the Parthenon. Subsequently, Morosini sought to loot sculptures from the ruin and caused further damage in the process. "


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s3rila

> He "dressed always in red from top to toe and never went into action without his cat beside him." Dude had a cat of war?


SCirish843

It's just called a cat


chopsey96

Actually it was called Nini.


otterdroppings

Or in private, 'Mr Fluffy Snuggle Tummy.'


CoconutCavern

Must have tried to clip the cat's nails.


[deleted]

Battle Cat.


thewayitis

KRS-1


torb

I read that as cattle bat and was thoroughly confused for a split second.


yeaheyeah

They use echo location to herd the cattle


cownd

You're not gonna have the dogs of war without cats getting in on the action too


ThaneKyrell

Yes. Worth noting that Morosini was the commander during the Siege of Candia, the longest siege in human history. He hated the Ottomans and after having lost Candia after a 21-year siege (mostly thanks to a pathetic French relief force) he likely couldn't give less of a fuck how much he destroyed as long as it fucked the Ottomans


7734128

Cry havoc, and let slip the cats of war!


willclerkforfood

“Sir, the cats of war are just laying there.” “They are now, but wait for the late night ‘zoomies of war.’”


Pay08

You don't?


PauseSignificant158

Actually sad they are so behind on the meta


useablelobster2

Patrick Stewart has a battle pug so I don't see why not.


saggynutbag

Agent Jack Bauer


somewheres

I wonder how much more history has been lost and erased this way.


[deleted]

Most of it? Stuff surviving is the exception, not the rule.


Chopper_x

The Abbey of Monte Cassino build in the 14th century and destroyed in WW2 >In spite of its potential excellence as an observation post, because of the fourteen-century-old Benedictine abbey's historical significance, the German commander in Italy, Generalfeldmarschall Albert Kesselring, ordered German units not to include it in their defensive positions and informed the Vatican and the Allies accordingly in December 1943. Nevertheless, some Allied reconnaissance aircraft maintained they observed German troops inside the monastery. While this remains unconfirmed, it is clear that once the monastery was destroyed it was occupied by the Germans and proved better cover for their emplacements and troops than an intact structure would have offered. It was rebuild after the war though


dablegianguy

I remember some general of the 15th Air Force saying to his commanders after Monte Cassino something like « do not bomb before the 18th century »


[deleted]

Turning the monastery to rubble actually helped the nazis and Italians. Broken terrain is much more difficult to take, and easier to defend.


dablegianguy

Indeed. It was the Germans’« Heartbreak ridge » but they repelled the allied soldiers for too long after the bombing


ParchmentNPaper

Science fiction writer Walter M. Miller Jr. took part in the bombing of Monte Cassino. It inspired him to write the 1959 post-apocalyptic *A Canticle for Leibowitz*, which is about the preservation of scientific knowledge after a nuclear war.


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BasementMods

destroyed by the 12th century Ghurid Dynasty.


Doctah_Whoopass

Makes you wonder how much you could change history with a crate of M4s and ammo.


PM_ME_UR_POKIES_GIRL

In some places quite a lot, in other places not so much. There's an alternate history book series about this, the first book in the series is called 1632. A small West Virginia town gets sucked into a quantum space thingy and deposited in 1632 in what I think would later be Germany. They use their 20th century know-how and and rust-belt industrial infrastructure to carve out a small republic with modern weaponry against armies who were still trying to decide if muskets were better than knights.


Ameisen

1632 was hundreds of years after knights were a thing, and was basically the period of line infantry. 1632 is the year Gustav Adolphus died.


ObeyMyBrain

Yeah, it was set in the middle of the 30 years war with Gustav Adolphus being a major character. :)


PM_ME_UR_POKIES_GIRL

You're right of course. I'm misremembering the cover of the book which, in my mind, had armored knights on it.


ObeyMyBrain

Well armies at the time still employed pikemen who wore armor that could easily be described as knights.


LeTigron

A lot, as all these events prove. In a very bad way.


Perfectcurranthippo

The great library was said to have (semi) accurate historical records of pre-2k BC that we kinda just guess on now iirc


Ameisen

The only writings that old would have been cuneiform in Sumerian, which would have been clay tablets. Possibly Akkadian Cuneiform as well. But we have literally hundreds of thousands of said tablets. What we lack much information on is late bronze age history and political organization, especially Mycenaean. The Mycenaean Greeks simply didn't use Linear B writing to record such things.


Intelligent_Moose_48

People often think of Old World cultures in this context, and all the comments seem to be on that trend, but there were also millions of people in the Americas and researchers to this day still find ruins and remains of gigantic abandoned cities from long before the Europeans arrived, and we have even fewer records in what actually happened! Were the ancient cities in the Amazon, or at Cahokia, or the Great Lakes abandoned purposefully and intentionally, were they destroyed by empire and war a thousand years before Spaniards showed up? We may never know.


Karmic_Indian_Yogi

[Nalanda University](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda), the world's first resident University was ransacked and the library burnt down during invasion of Turkic muslims. Many texts, belonging to a collection of hundreds of years containing knowledge on various subjects ranging from literature to medicine were lost. Edit: in India. edit 2: Turkic. Thanks u/ThaneKyrell


ThaneKyrell

Turkic, not Turkish. Turkish refers specifically to the ethnicity which live in modern-day Turkey. All other Turks (which is much a wider ethnic group) are refered to as Turkic.


Karmic_Indian_Yogi

TIL , thanks :)


Ameisen

The Ghurids were Arghu Turkic and Tajik (Iranic), specifically.


majortung

Taxila, a site of ancient Indic learning, now in Pakistan was destroyed by Huns in 5th century BC https://www.britannica.com/place/Taxila


Derfaust

great library of alexandra


Peligineyes

War didn't really ruin the Library of Alexandria. Ptolemy VIII purged the librarians because he was anti intellectual 100 years before Caesar accidentally burnt it. And even still it kept operating for 200 years afterwards until it was slowly abandoned from lack of funds.


Derfaust

Oh shit, you're right! Damn. One always hears it was destroyed during an invasion.


blazbluecore

"Anti intellectual" why does that sound relevant in this decade....


illBro

It's always relevant


[deleted]

The libraries of Timbuktu. A huge amount of written African history was lost circa 1400


OrphanedInStoryville

I went to the [ruins of a Hindu city from the Middle Ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_S%C6%A1n) in Vietnam that had been used as a munitions storage during the Vietnam war. The North Vietnamese were under the impression that the Americans wouldn’t bomb a UNESCO world heritage site. And, well…


gusuku_ara

I don't get it. The American army destroyed part of the city in 1969 during the war, but the wiki page also says that it became an UNESCO heritage site just in 1999.


Nokneemouse

People have also also had the same bright idea with having military installations in the middle of an urban area. Shitty behaviour.


[deleted]

Under the rules of war taking advantage of things you shouldnt bomb to hide things the enemy is allowed to bomb. Removes the protection of the thing you shouldn't bomb. So don't do it.


coleosis1414

It’s only in the last century that people have developed a sense of preservation of culturally rich / historic places. A particularly grotesque example of flagrant disregard is Stonehenge: Until I think the 1960’s, they used to give tourists a little hammer and chisel and encourage them to break off a little chunk of Stonehenge and take it home with them. Now you can’t get any closer than 20 feet from the outermost rocks, but the sheer stupidity and vandalism with which historical monuments used to be treated is astounding.


Khelthuzaad

[Sweet, Audrey, Vinny, Mole, Cookie and Packard decide to switch to Milo's side] Commander Rourke: [Outraged] Aw, you can't be serious! Audrey: This is wrong, and you know it! Commander Rourke: We are this close to our biggest payday ever, you pick NOW, of all times, to grow a conscience?! Vinny: We've done a lot of thing's we're not proud of: robbing graves, plundering tombs, double parking, but, nobody got hurt. Well...maybe somebody got hurt, but nobody we knew Commander Rourke: Well, if this is the way you want it...fine! [Turns to the car] MORE for me!


deth579

The Turks made a stupid mistake, expecting Venetians not to enjoy every moment of destroying Greek culture.


AlcestInADream

I don't understand how anyone believes that ''the enemy wouldn't attack this cultural heritage'', it's war: the only objective is to destroy, hurt, and submit. Anything goes, always.


Butterflyenergy

Cities have literally been spared because of affection for the city and its culture. Kyoto for example. Paris was to be razed as well but the general refused. Not sure if the motivations were wholly cultural heritage, but it's not far fetched.


GeneReddit123

It has to work both ways, though. One side doesn't use a cultural heritage site as a defensive ground, and the other, in turn, agrees to not conduct offensive operations there or simply bomb it. Paris was spared because it was ceded without a fight (both by France in 1940 and by Germany in 1944.) If it had been defended, it *would* have been razed, to the extent needed to capture it. Nor would it have been a war crime. Laws of war don't forbid civilian or cultural destruction, only *unnecessary* destruction, or for non-military goals such as collective punishment, terror, or cultural genocide. If a cultural object is put to military use by one side, it becomes a legitimate target to the other side, and, at best, both sides share the blame for its destruction (with the burden of guilt leaning towards the side which started using it that way first.)


rankinrez

Not to praise any Nazi but Paris avoided being wrecked as they withdrew as General Dietrich von Choltitz disobeyed Hitler’s order that it should become a “field of ruins”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz


IwasMooseNep

90% of Warsaw was destroyed during the war. Pictures from 1945 just saw the city as a piece of rubble Virtually nothing in Warsaw is truly old.


TheGoodOldCoder

> Kyoto for example. Wasn't that a case of one person who kept pushing back every time others tried to make Kyoto a target? Like it's not like Americans generally appreciated Kyoto at the time. If that one person hadn't been there and been willing to stick his neck out by pushing back, Kyoto would have been nuked.


x2040

Kyoto was saved only because a US general had a honeymoon there. Everyone else wanted to nuke the shit out of it.


AdiSoldier245

> the only objective is to destroy, hurt, and submit ehh not really. That was true most times for most countries. Venice was at war with the ottomans over trade disputes though, not take (much)land.


YetAnother2Cents

Perhaps structurally intact, but I recall reading that in the time of ancient Greece, it was actually very brightly painted. Has anyone else heard this or can weigh in with more specific Authority?


hockeycross

Most statues were actually, the fascination with all white marble was more from the Renaissance. It was inspired by the old roman statues now being all white, but most were not originally that way.


soulstare222

why would they use something as difficult and heavy and expensive as marble to make statues out of if they were just going to paint over it? might as well just use wood.


FlintWaterFilter

I think you just answered your own question. We still have their statues because of the material they used. If they were wood, we would not. Also difficult and expensive made you look badass, and that's what they wanted.


beardedblorgon

Might be some survivors bias, we think all statues were marble because that is mostly what we find. The potential wooden statues are degraded so we don’t know if they had those as well


Krelkal

> we think all statues were marble "We" know that the Greeks built statues typically out of wood, terracotta, or bronze with marble being a luxury material. *Monuments* were built to last so were usually made from marble or bronze with bronze recasts becoming more popular in later centuries. There *is* some survivor bias in what we see in museums but it's not like wooden statues were a mystery. We know the Greeks used wood because they wrote about it (ie the Trojan Horse). *Edit: sorry, that sounds way snarkier than I meant it. Pre-coffee brain.


FlintWaterFilter

A lot of those made of wood were intended to be left indoors and likely weren't as large (due to size limitations of the material) or as important. The trojan horse isn't a statue or monument, so not exactly a comparison. It would be the same to say they used wooden bowls or made bows out of wood. If you're making something as a testament to your gods, you want it to last forever and you use those materials. That's why they gave up on bronze so early as they would have seen it's degradation over time. They had hundreds of years of civilization making marble statues and as such would have noticed that they weren't degrading as fast as other materials. I'm not sure why we're assuming they were unable to understand the science behind the materials they used when they were able to use them perhaps even better than we are today.


FlintWaterFilter

I think they probably knew then as well as we do now that wood statues won't hold up to weather the same. Given that we have a lot of historical texts from the era, and most of these artists are highly studied, we would likely know. Additionally, the tools are completely different. It's a thought, but it's not like we haven't been studying Roman culture for hundreds of years. At the beginning of which, we had more physical evidence than we do now. Someone would have written about the diminishing supply of wood statues being destroyed by the heat and humidity of the Mediterranean climate.


gelatomancer

We do know. The Greeks made statues from pretty much everything available; marble, bronze, iron, gold, terracotta, and yes, wood. Remember that these weren't art pieces, but devotional items. If your fishing village was too poor for a marble Poseidon statue, wood was better than his wrath. But if you're Athens, your Athena statue is going to be marble and gold.


95DarkFireII

Wood wouldn't last 3000 years, would it?


OliveJuiceUTwo

It wood not


00Laser

You have to keep in mind that in Italy and Greece marble isn't actually hard to come by. They just saw it as a stone that was good for this use. In some parts of Italy you'll still see curbs made out of marble just because that's what's available locally.


TheVenetianMask

Because dyes were also expensive.


xiaorobear

They also made wood statues- inside the Parthenon was a massive 11.5m tall statue of Athena, made of wood covered in gold and ivory (chryselephantine was their term for it). That statue does not survive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena_Parthenos


blatantninja

The statues and the freezes were. I don't think the columns were


Antares42

"friezes", FYI


JJ0161

No they are white because they are frozen.


Antares42

Sir. I have small children. Will you please not use the F-word in my presence!


SparksMurphey

Oh please, this is Reddit. People are gonna use bad words. Just... *let it go.* Edit: those last three words apparently needed more stress.


Generic_name_no1

Almost all "white" statues, monuments, etc from ancient times were painted.


Noturaltaccount

Just wanted to drop in and say that if you ever make it to Athens to see the Parthenon, make sure to stop by the [Acropolis museum](https://www.theacropolismuseum.gr/en) located right next to the site. It has some incredible artifacts, and is one of the most impressive museums I’ve ever seen.


deth579

Half the museum is located in Britain after that time Lord Byron and the British Bunch borrowed a bunch of priceless artifacts.


mjuyr

Lmao tell me you're an idiot without telling me you're an idiot


gefex

Earl Elgin bought them from the Ottomans. Byron actually said it was vandalism, wrote poems about it.


trapperjohn3400

It was used as an ammo dump (a place to store all of your gunpowder where enemy fire is unlikely to be able to hit it and cause it to all go off). Well, it was hit.


Jacollinsver

More than that, it was used as an ammo dump *because* it was a place of such historical significance. Expecting the venetians to respect it, instead they fired directly on it and then further damaged it by looting the remains (full statues of Poseidon and Athena on horseback were shattered as troops attempted to detach them from the walls)


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HelloYesThisIsFemale

In fariness you shouldn't use a place for strategic importance if you're gonna :o when it gets shot at. Just ain't right.


Aenna

Dick move to fire at places of such historical significance for sure, but perhaps not the most ideal decision to use such places of significance for military storage? Not saying the attackers are in the right by any mean, but reminds me of the Allied using civilian ships to deliver military goods and the Axis thus using it as an excuse to bomb them as well?


SoundsLikeBanal

Eh, one side can be ruthless for attacking an important landmark, and the other can be careless for taking its importance for granted. No reason it has to be one or the other.


ThemCanada-gooses

That said I always enjoy a story where a bluff is called.


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alexmikli

Stuff like this makes me wish it wasn't a faux pas to restore these things. They're only ruined because of accidents or happenstance, I think the original builders would prefer them rebuilt than left to rot. Looks like the Parthenon has some work done on it but it seems kinda...lazy? Colossus of Rhodes won't ever be rebuilt because Greece doesn't have the money, but man would it be cool.


nowarning1962

They are rebuilding the Parthenon but it's very slow going. They won't ever build the colossus of Rhodes because no one knows exactly what it looked like and they are only fairly certain where it might have stood. The colossus was built and destroyed within one lifetime.


tolsimirw

Although the colossus fell within one lifetime, it was just laying there not destroyed for over 800 years, and apparently was melted by Arabs during the invasion in ~650.


Ameisen

According to Theophanes.


markjohnstonmusic

>only fairly certain where it might have stood Uh, Rhodes? It says it right there in the name.


2this4u

Funny


According-Value-6227

I wholeheartedly agree. You can easily just add onto the existing structure and keep the original components intact.


alexmikli

There's an almost exact replica of the Parthenon in Nashville Tennessee, so at least we have that.


LtSoundwave

[Huh, TIL.](https://www.nashville.gov/departments/parks/parthenon)


Enorats

On a side note, there's also a concrete Stonehenge replica in Washington state. It was built as a memorial to the local soldiers who fought in WW1. Also, because I'm assuming the eccentric rich guy that lived down the road wanted to build a Stonehenge replica. I mean, who doesn't want a Stonehenge replica.. right? His mansion is now a museum with a really eclectic collection of odds and ends. Everything from a modern art wing to a native american wing. Apparently the Queen of Romania got involved at some point, because there's an entire room filled with her stuff that was donated. There's even a throne. Oh, and the peacocks. Can't forget the peacocks. They're everywhere on the grounds. Maryhill is certainly one of the stranger places in rural Washington, lol. Just a whole mansion filled with oddities out in the middle of absolutely nowhere.


Dolly_gale

[Carhenge](https://www.travelsandcuriosities.com/carhenge) is one of the most visited sites in Nebraska. Probably because if you've been driving through Nebraska long enough, getting out to stretch your legs sounds like a good idea. Might as well do it at Carhenge, a Stonehenge replica made of cars.


unique-name-9035768

[Foamhenge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foamhenge) is a Styrofoam recreation of Stonehenge in Centreville, VA. Before being moved to it's current location by the artist, it had mockups of how the stones were possibly stood up. Including a mockup of [Merlin surfing the blocks into place with magic](https://www.reddit.com/r/magictavern/comments/cbj54r/usidore_at_foamhenge_in_virginia/).


alexmikli

I gotta get into this henge business


Notexactlyserious

Kinda cheaped out going with concrete tho amirite


Beavshak

Maryhill really is weird af, and more people should see it lol.


msgavane

Visited Nashville and needed to burn up an afternoon, so we found a park and walked it. Was very surprised to find a massive Parthenon just hanging out. Very cool place to visit.


Alauren2

I love centennial park. And Nashville. Such a cool city.


ashesofempires

If only Tennessee wasn’t a dumpster fire otherwise.


p-d-ball

Can we go there to worship Athena? It's a long trip to Greece.


allwillbewellbuthow

Worship smarter, not harder. I’d like to think She’d approve.


p-d-ball

hahaha, nice! "Goddess of war, handicraft and practical reason." Yup, you are right.


hendukush

Yes. There is a giant statue of Athena inside.


p-d-ball

That is awesome.


The-red-Dane

Except I don't think they allow animal sacrifices in the building.


p-d-ball

That's going to make worship somewhat difficult. Perhaps I'll do the sacrifices earlier and simply bring the blood offering in. Totally appreciate the head's up!


alexmikli

The idea behind the sacrifices was that you offered a portion of your food to the gods. You didn't necessarily need to actually kill the animal at that spot, you just needed to offer it to the gods and make it clear you were sharing the meal. Athena was given cow sacrifices, so if you want to sacrifice to her, go to the statue with a hamburger and toss it somewhere. Or give it to a worker and tell them to split it with the goddess.


p-d-ball

Whoops! And now I'm out a couple slaves. Anyways, thanks for the information! That'll definitely be easier going forward.


Gregory_Appleseed

Animal sacrifices were just old school ancient BBQs and an excuse to party. If you think about the utility of a goat for example, it can pull a small cart, you can load it up with a few small bags or baskets, if it's a female you can get milk, and eventually cheese. Now look at sheep, they can do all that, but they also make some bomb ass clothes if you collect the excess fur they would otherwise scrape off on a gnarled tree stump. Sacrificing a domesticated animal in those days was like taking your car to the scrap yard. Instead of getting cash out trade in value you could feed your family and village with food from the meat, and sell or use the leather, horns, hooves, whatever, to make various things that are not taste but essential. Killing an animal, even just letting it die of natural causes is messy. If you wouldn't take your car apart on the side of the street, bolt by bolt, then you probably wouldn't slaughter your beast of burden in front of your hut, or even your stable. Dead animals attract scavengers and predators. They stink and they can cause disease if they aren't taken care of swiftly. The carcasses can also spook the other domesticated animals, causing them to act erratically in ways a simplistic agrarian human might attribute to the superstitious. Clean up sucks too, blood and bile is hard to scrub out of dirt, and even harder to get out of untreated wood, porous stone, and fabric. Pressure washers and detergent weren't a thing two millennia ago. You know what is super easy to clean? Marble. You know what used a lot of marble? Temples. So you'd take your goat to the temple. She has a broken ankle, a nasty tooth infection no one for a thousand years had any idea how to take care of, and there's also a bit of mange developing despite your best efforts to combat it. You raised this animal since it was a kid. Even among many others you're attached to this animal, but this goat is old as a goat will get and you can see an intense pain in their eyes. You can slaughter it at your hut, and deal with all the everything, or take it to the temple, and have a sort of pre-funeral for your old friend. You gather your family and friends, Andy head to the temple where you may ask for a ceremony for a few, or maybe you donate and partake in there festivities to come. Sacrificing an animal at the temple allowed them to clean the beast beforehand if possible, drain it and remove any possible rott or diseased parts. They would render any useable materials like horn, leather, tendons, organs, etc, while the meat would probably be split between the donors and the temple or it would be used to feed the priests and clergy, or for alms, whatever. If you owned a lot of animals it wasn't really a sacrifice, it was just another day. Those people had facilities for that, but for the common person, sacrificing was a big event. If you could timr it right, you could 'please the gods' by sacrificing at the same time others did, maybe to ensure a good harvest. I'm sure mostly it was to get the temple's bullies off your back or maybe some leniency on certain taxes, who knows, I'm just pulling all this out of my ass anyway. [My point is, that animal sacrifices in the context of ancient history are often represented as a symbolically wasteful ritual that only served a nefarious purpose to enrich the quality of the high priesthood. I'm certain that it got out of hand at many points in time and those are there only accounts that were worth writing about.]


Dr-Gooseman

I know it's a joke but Greece is absolutely worth the trip!


halftrue_split_in2

And it's awesome! Building a replica and keeping the ruins intact seems to be the way to go.


ThemCanada-gooses

There’s a dinosaur museum near me. Some of their displays they’ll create a metal mesh so you can see what the dinosaur would look like when there’s only a partial skeleton. On some displays they’ll use fossils they created to complete the full picture of a dinosaur. They still have lots of partial displays as well as a mix of real fossils and casts. And I like it this way because you get a better idea of what the animal looked like.


CODILICIOUS

In Masada in Israel they restored some of the buildings but they put a line in the building of where the original building was and where has been restored.


DeathMonkey6969

They are doing the same thing with the Parthenon with the new stonework being a different color then the older pieces.


ThatBitchNiP

Your comment sent me on a 30 min research and video watching of Masada. I had not heard of it previously, what a fascinating place. Always amazes me what ancient structures are out there and how amazing they are. Thank you!


DepressionDokkebi

Restoration should be done only under consultation with historians and archeologists in a manner that is consistent in spirit with how the structure was originally built, if the structure was to maintain its historical value


neolib-cowboy

Sure but let's restore them to their former glory. Imagine the Colosseum rebuilt as it once was. How amazing would that be?


tabgrab23

Only if I can also watch people fight to the death


unique-name-9035768

I want to see naval battles in a flooded arena.


unshavenbeardo64

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!


gaijin5

They're restoring the Colosseum too IIRC.


not_the_settings

Yeah but I also want a sbarros in there. Just like my pastor says: authentic Italian food


Garper

Pastor says restoration is the devil's fig leaf.


crowley7234

One of the biggest issues with restoration of the Parthenon is that each marble block has only one position where it fits. For example, the floor is actually higher in the center than around the edges, the reason for this was to help eliminate standing water, minimize glare from the sun. While that's all well and good its really more of a good side effect, we believe that they designed the floor and other aspects in such a way to trick the mind into thinking the building is perfectly squared. Imagine doing a 3d puzzle where every piece only has one spot. Now imagine taking that 3d puzzle and blowing it up. Now you can imagine the extreme difficulty in restoring something like the Parthenon.


neolib-cowboy

Well I mean if the Greeks could do it and all they had was basic geometry and an abacus, no Roman numerals, meanwhile we have calculus & computers and machines that can make these blocks perfect, I am sure we can do it


Cormetz

I mean they did it with the church in Dresden, they labeled all the pieces and rebuilt it after unification.


Swiftax3

The colosseum is another good one. Only reason it looks ruined today is because it was used as a convenient quarry for a couple centuries. Imagine seeing a naumachia, the arena sealed and flooded and full sized galleys floated on its surface in a mock sea battle.


p-d-ball

No kidding! Some of the castles that have been "restored" in Japan were done so with concreate. They look awful. Finally, many now are being restored using the original building methods (i.e., wood with wooden nails).


CherryBoard

Lots of wood buildings don't have nails - they have unique slots that each piece fits into to make the whole thing structurally sound


p-d-ball

Yes, that's true. I've been to Japanese castles where they're rebuilding them and using traditional wooden nails. The builders keep the nails in their mouth to moisten them before hammering them in. A lot of traditional Japanese structures didn't use nails at all, as you write, but some did. I have a knife made from the iron nails of a temple. Monks collected the iron from beaches, then smelted them into nails.


zedoktar

Woodworker here. Pretty sure those aren't nails, they are more like draw-bore pins. A lot of joints use this technique. Traditional Japanese joinery is fascinating. They also moisten some joints so the wood swells to create a far tighter fit. The trick is to hammer the surface to compress it, the moisten it after putting it together so it swells and locks.


Starshapedsand

I recently visited. Slowly, carefully, fragment by fragment, they are working on restoration.


Rynewulf

It some places it isn't, there's a famous Douglas Adam's quote about him talking with a monk (I think in Japan) about a historic temple, and how the monk didn't understand Douglas' confusion over how it was considered the original historic building while having been rebuilt due to fires several times over in it's history. Personally I think the compromise of traditionally building replicas nearby while preserving the original site for archaeological purposes is the best thing to do. You never know what will turn up later, or what you might lose when you say pave the whole place over like the Victorians did at Knossos in Greece or at Newgrange in Ireland


MAN-99

Knossos is a really good example of why you don't just rebuild ancient ruins


smetaxas

Greek here that loves the Athenian Acropolis! When I was in middle school I had the chance to visit it with one of the chief archaeologists working on it. Restorations of the Parthenon [date back to the 19th century](https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi3078.htm), where shabby materials were used to try to quickly put things back together. In some cases they used metal, which rusted and caused further damage. Today’s restorations are partly rebuilding things and partly fixing those bad mistakes. They go into extreme detail, with laser imaging used to create the correct filler pieces for rebuilding and bringing expert sculptors who spend years trying to recreate ancient processes to match what things would have looked like. Specifically I remember seeing a capital (top of a column) of such wonderful detail that it made me realize what a challenging project this is, but also that it’s worth it. All that said, it’s usually somewhat obvious what the new parts of the structure are because the new marble is still very white and some find that ugly. Others like being able to distinguish the original from the new. Either way a few decades of exposure to the elements will make it all look the same, so not much point debating that one.


Indocede

The differences in marble might become a moot point if we hold that a complete restoration would also require a paint job. I understand the belief that people want it to be rebuilt to be as perfect as possible, but realistically, that will always remain entirely impossible. Even when it was built I suspect there were numerous imperfections that the builders cringed when they took notice of. I think the splendor of these places are reflected in the idea of them. The idea that upon this spot for thousands of years, there has been the Parthenon. We look upon the destruction as a taint upon that magnificence, so it would seem that if it should be different from the original, that difference should reflect the ideas of those who love the building as opposed to those who ruined it.


Ginnipe

The idea of ‘restoring’ monuments is a very complicated one in Greece. Before restoring any monument one has to to determine what eta you’re restoring it to, and in doing so you’re actively making decisions about what history you choose to represent and what history you choose to ‘paint over’ If we restored all the Greek monuments people would be disgusted at how gaudy they look when full painted because they all expect it to be ‘pure’ and white stone. If we put the roof back on the Parthenon and restored all the inlaid stories told within the pediments then the history of ottoman rule, and the subsequent stealing of monuments by the British could be ‘wiped away’ in just a hundred years or so. Even ‘broken’ monuments have a story to tell, and it can be argued that a broken monument tells a much more accurate and impactful history of events than a restored ‘new’ monument.


Nefarious_Turtle

Not that I disagree, but couldn't you make the same argument about preservation too? Unless you want to let the course of history and nature eventually destroy the monument entirely at some point an effort to preserve it is going to be undertaken. But at that point aren't we in essence choosing to "paint over" modern history? Prevent any new history from impacting the ruin? It seems at some point some history has to be ignored its just a matter of what and when.


c340

They did this with Pompeii and it kind of ruined it for me. I don't want re-creations, I want to see whatever is left of the ORIGINAL structure as the Romans built it. Pompeii is full of rebuilt structures and it takes away from the experience.


[deleted]

[удалено]


bobbimous

Go read about the Frauenkirche in Dresden. Definitely inspires awe after the rebuild.


Likesdirt

Hard to say. Most of the toured cliff dwellings in Mesa Verde were rebuilt from fallen bricks and imagination. There are academic papers written about star and sun alignment at Chaco Canyon - too bad they rely on windows placed by CCC crews in the 1930's.


spyczech

They were also painted bright colors, so we wont ever see them how their artists intended


Buck_Nastyyy

I agree! Come to East Asia. Most Korean temples and palaces are rebuilt because the Japanese destroyed them at one point or another. The great wall sections that are the most popular are also heavily restored. They should at least have a full roof on the Acropolis.


cerebud

You don’t know anything about the actual colossus of Rhodes. It’s not some giant statue as many believe. They have no idea what it looked like, or exactly where it was.


evanstcloud

For some reason all I could think of reading this was Stephen Fry stumbling on the line, “They say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is..” on an episode of [Q.I.](https://youtu.be/GdvD4Fhc_K8)


China_John

Bloody hell, Steven. This better be good...


Philodendritic

HE’S GONNA SAY, HE’S GONNA SAY


uncchris2001

So funny. If anyone hasn't seen it, give this a look.


sickhippie

Seconding this, it's nearly Python-esque the way it plays out.


lectroid

I am disappointed that this reference is not much, MUCH higher. It was the first thing I thought of as well. What DO they say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is?


VapourMetro111

Fantastic. Made me properly laugh. Unfortunately, I have a bad back at the moment, so it was quite painful. Still worth it though...


nitr0smash

Do you know what they say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is?


Bbobbilly

What do they say? What do they say?


partlysocialist

He's gonna say he's gonna say he's going to sayyyyyyyy.....


OnAMissionFromDog

Bloody hell Stephen, this better be good.


GSV_No_Fixed_Abode

You can tell that everyone in that clip is having so much fun ragging on Fry, like when you were a kid and the teacher fucked up


Philodendritic

**There are no straight lines**


Beavshak

Whatever


app4that

Anyone who would like to get some idea of what it would have been like to see the completed temple can visit a full-sized recreation in Nashville: https://www.nashville.gov/departments/parks/parthenon


SimWebb

Well absolutely FUCK Morosini. >Turkish deserter revealed to Morosini the use to which the Turks had put the Parthenon; expecting that the Venetians would not target a building of such historic importance. Morosini was said to have responded by directing his artillery to aim at the Parthenon.[96][120] Subsequently, Morosini sought to loot sculptures from the ruin and caused further damage in the process. Sculptures of Poseidon and Athena's horses fell to the ground and smashed as his soldiers tried to detach them from the building's west pediment.[104][122] >The following year, the Venetians abandoned Athens to avoid a confrontation with a large force the Turks had assembled at Chalcis; at that time, the Venetians had considered blowing up what remained of the Parthenon along with the rest of the Acropolis to deny its further use as a fortification to the Turks, but that idea was not pursued.[120] >Once the Turks had recaptured the Acropolis, they used some of the rubble produced by this explosion to erect a smaller mosque within the shell of the ruined Parthenon.[123] For the next century and a half, parts of the remaining structure were looted for building material and especially valuable objects.


deth579

He was Venetian. He was raised with a naturally loathsome disposition towards Greeks.


SmugSceptic

This is why we can't have nice things. 😔


tstyes

Many ruins today were the result of WWII as well


[deleted]

What would cause an explosion like that in 1687?


Fly_Boy_1999

Blowing up an ammo and gunpowder depot


The-red-Dane

The ottomans used the site as an ammo/gunpowder storage, assuming the Venetian and others wouldn't dare to shoot at it.


ScrappyDonatello

they had been manufacturing gunpowder in Europe for over 300 year years at that point


95DarkFireII

Gunpowder.


Youpunyhumans

So... why not just fix it? Restore it to its former glory, Im sure the people who created it would have wanted that, rather than leave it to weather and crumble over time. Would be way cooler to say we kept a structure maintained for thousands of years, rather than look at its crumbled ruins and go "Yep, this is what remains of the Parthenon, eventually itll just be dust."


Laxn_pander

There is a fine line between restoration and recreation. In china they actually follow your advise on rebuilding ancient cities rather than restoring the ruins. And most of the Charme is lost in the process. Look at cities like Dali. They feel more like a theme park than an authentic experience of history. While one may find that favourable, I personally think less is more.


Ameisen

Most people would find classical Rome or Athens to be more like a theme park than anything else. Incredibly busy, everything painted in bright colors, vendors and advertisements everywhere... What you consider "authentic" is basically decayed ruins.


sillybilly978675

Accident? On purpose? C'mon, tell the whole story!!! :)


[deleted]

It was being used as a warehouse, storing gunpowder for the Ottoman Turkish military who controlled the city. They were at war with the Republic of Venice, and the Venetians shelled it, the powder went boom and a several hundred men died.


sillybilly978675

Impressive! Thanks for sharing!


PrimalZed

[The whole story (in 12 minutes)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XvUjdTkJ3o)


fubes2000

God forbid you actually click through and read.


drunkenmime

Venice has done so much damage to the Greek people. Its insane,


SeaTrucker

Not nearly as much as the Turks did.


[deleted]

Fuck the Venetians!


Hash_Tooth

Saddest thing I have learned in some time


Hyphalspace

Wow, this is a goddamn Greek tragedy.