Everyone saw this coming years ago, but he bulldozed through this unconstitutional legislation anyway and wasted years and money trying to keep this charade up in the courts. The dumbest government ever. Doug operates like a thug.
Not enough people remember how Doug behaved around City Council.
For all his to faults, Rob actually had some charm. But Doug was always a loud, dumb bully:
https://youtu.be/i6JLHDXb894?si=vGEz99QOfdKW0jga
Idiots think he’s as stupid as they are - so they vote for him bc they want to see their idiocy reflected in government.
The wealthy just want someone to control, so they vote him in bc idiots are easy to control.
Most other people don’t vote. Ontario is easy pickings for political calamity.
Edits autocorrects.
Make no mistake they still came out on top here. This amounts to a mandated 3 year interest free loan they took from public sector workers. Sounds like they stashed it in the contingency fund where they could have collected a little interest on it.
To my knowledge none of the arbitrated/negotiated settlements so far have included interest on the backpay owed. Nor is every single person who left the public service in that time going to be made whole, they just won’t.
So the government acts against the constitution, banks the interest they collected and maybe a bit more. We should all be furious no punitive damages were awarded because we can now continue to expect this government and all after it to pull this maneuver going forward.
I can't speak for other unions but AMAPCEO and OPSEU public servants will receive backpay for 2022 and 2023 in the amount of 2% and 2.5% respectively. But yes, no additional interest on these amounts.
And if you look at what a hypothetical high interest savings account paid over those two years, pretty sure even I could have gotten more than 2 and 2.5%. That delta just gets banked, apparently.
I worked at a job funded by the Ontario gov but not officially under Bill 124. We were told not to expect anything for raises and we'd be lucky if we got 1 percent. It does makes me wonder at the ripple effect of the jobs not covered here trying to stay on the funders good side
Disagree. If the nurses and LTC central contracts had been negotiated as normal in 2019-2021 they likely would have landed around the 1.5% -2% trend like they were for the past decade (during which inflation was in 2% range). Instead, bill 124 was repealed at the end of 2022. So the parties got to revisit their bill 124 periods with the hindsight of a pandemic, highest inflation in 30 years and massive healthcare labour shortage. Hospital Central agreements landed at 4.75% and 3.5% for either '22 and '23 , or '23 and '24 depending on the contract. Basically, wage increases were double (with the benefit of hindsight) than they would have been if they were negotiated without interference before the inflationary trend set in. From a fiscal conservative standpoint, this was an absolute disaster
Fuck Doug Ford.
This is only the case for unions who were able to negotiate a re-opener clause. There are many unions (such as mine) whose pandemic collective agreements did not have that option. Our union is still waiting to hear if/when the Province is going to pay us back.
If the worst case scenario is that they pay out inflation adjusted wages, that’s a very strong justification to try to pull this whenever you can because there’s billions to gain if you sneak it through.
Correct. And either way they'd be out $6 billion, and counting.
So, again: would this sub and OP then be complaining, if they'd just paid them originally, that spendy Doug Ford is wasting money and is certainly no fiscal conservative?
Probably not much. Obviously we don’t know how much staff time MAG spent on it, but the cost award to the unions lawyers couldn’t have been very high. They only litigated the constitutionality, not the remedy. So it’s the kind of trial and appeal would happen with a bunch smart people making legal arguments (relatively cheap) rather than the kind with lots of contentious facts where the parties spend millions and millions on experts and examinations and document review and such (which is mind-bogglingly expensive). This isn’t like class action litigation where the lawyers are getting a cut of the damages, the unions use the same handful of labour-side law firms for everything and I’ll bet they’re kind of stingy about it.
Don’t get me wrong, this whole thing was fucking stupid.
But timed with an election so that either the next guy has to pay for it with tax hikes, or Doug Ford's inevitably final term has to end with tax hikes anyway.
Did anyone READ the article? Ford was trying to save the Ontario taxpayers $6B. The Court of Appeal for Ontario was the one who ruled it unconstitutional and forced the payment. The gov shouldn’t have capped salaries for frontline workers like teachers, nurses, and hospital workers, but all the employees sitting at home on zoom for the last 3 years could’ve been curbed. It’s taxpayer money paying public servants and many of them have much high salary bands, better benefits and pensions than private sector workers.
This is unhinged. Things that are unconstitutional get ruled unconstitutional. You don't like the salary and benefits available in the private sector? Join a union.
Right because if you're working an office job from home you deserve to have your salary eroded from a pay freeze while costs of living sky rocket? They're not all cushy jobs, you know. Just like there aren't just wealthy actors and producers affected by a Hollywood labour disputes. There are proportionately way more regular, middle-income folks who bear the brunt of it. So easy for you to dismiss them.
Ontario Public Service staff are not working from home. The first return to work order was in 2021 just after everyone was fully vaccinated. I believe the current 3 mandatory days in the office is more than many corporations.
Everyone saw this coming years ago, but he bulldozed through this unconstitutional legislation anyway and wasted years and money trying to keep this charade up in the courts. The dumbest government ever. Doug operates like a thug.
"Conservatives are fiscally responsible."
No matter which party he’s a member of it’s baffling that anyone could mistake Doug Ford for an intelligent person
Not enough people remember how Doug behaved around City Council. For all his to faults, Rob actually had some charm. But Doug was always a loud, dumb bully: https://youtu.be/i6JLHDXb894?si=vGEz99QOfdKW0jga
Idiots think he’s as stupid as they are - so they vote for him bc they want to see their idiocy reflected in government. The wealthy just want someone to control, so they vote him in bc idiots are easy to control. Most other people don’t vote. Ontario is easy pickings for political calamity. Edits autocorrects.
Make no mistake they still came out on top here. This amounts to a mandated 3 year interest free loan they took from public sector workers. Sounds like they stashed it in the contingency fund where they could have collected a little interest on it. To my knowledge none of the arbitrated/negotiated settlements so far have included interest on the backpay owed. Nor is every single person who left the public service in that time going to be made whole, they just won’t. So the government acts against the constitution, banks the interest they collected and maybe a bit more. We should all be furious no punitive damages were awarded because we can now continue to expect this government and all after it to pull this maneuver going forward.
I can't speak for other unions but AMAPCEO and OPSEU public servants will receive backpay for 2022 and 2023 in the amount of 2% and 2.5% respectively. But yes, no additional interest on these amounts.
And if you look at what a hypothetical high interest savings account paid over those two years, pretty sure even I could have gotten more than 2 and 2.5%. That delta just gets banked, apparently.
Yup, literally wage theft. Even if you just stuffed that extra money into a HISA or GIC and did nothing you would have done better.
I worked at a job funded by the Ontario gov but not officially under Bill 124. We were told not to expect anything for raises and we'd be lucky if we got 1 percent. It does makes me wonder at the ripple effect of the jobs not covered here trying to stay on the funders good side
Disagree. If the nurses and LTC central contracts had been negotiated as normal in 2019-2021 they likely would have landed around the 1.5% -2% trend like they were for the past decade (during which inflation was in 2% range). Instead, bill 124 was repealed at the end of 2022. So the parties got to revisit their bill 124 periods with the hindsight of a pandemic, highest inflation in 30 years and massive healthcare labour shortage. Hospital Central agreements landed at 4.75% and 3.5% for either '22 and '23 , or '23 and '24 depending on the contract. Basically, wage increases were double (with the benefit of hindsight) than they would have been if they were negotiated without interference before the inflationary trend set in. From a fiscal conservative standpoint, this was an absolute disaster Fuck Doug Ford.
This is only the case for unions who were able to negotiate a re-opener clause. There are many unions (such as mine) whose pandemic collective agreements did not have that option. Our union is still waiting to hear if/when the Province is going to pay us back.
If the worst case scenario is that they pay out inflation adjusted wages, that’s a very strong justification to try to pull this whenever you can because there’s billions to gain if you sneak it through.
Absolutely. And I am not sure for each case but many of the settlements don't include overtime in the retro pay.
“Conservatives are fiscally illiterate”
So you want them to... not pay the workers.
All this trouble could have been avoided if they'd done that in the first place.
Correct. And either way they'd be out $6 billion, and counting. So, again: would this sub and OP then be complaining, if they'd just paid them originally, that spendy Doug Ford is wasting money and is certainly no fiscal conservative?
How much in legal fees?
He probably could have funded everything he cut if he just did nothing his years in office.
But how would he have inflicted all the mental stress on public workers?
Probably not much. Obviously we don’t know how much staff time MAG spent on it, but the cost award to the unions lawyers couldn’t have been very high. They only litigated the constitutionality, not the remedy. So it’s the kind of trial and appeal would happen with a bunch smart people making legal arguments (relatively cheap) rather than the kind with lots of contentious facts where the parties spend millions and millions on experts and examinations and document review and such (which is mind-bogglingly expensive). This isn’t like class action litigation where the lawyers are getting a cut of the damages, the unions use the same handful of labour-side law firms for everything and I’ll bet they’re kind of stingy about it. Don’t get me wrong, this whole thing was fucking stupid.
Seems like this was very avoidable.
Finally some good news. Now if only it hadn't required wasting untold millions trying to avoid doing the right thing.
So this is what cutting the gravy train looks like Conservative voters see this as a huge loss.
He’s currently in the find out phase
But timed with an election so that either the next guy has to pay for it with tax hikes, or Doug Ford's inevitably final term has to end with tax hikes anyway.
Did anyone READ the article? Ford was trying to save the Ontario taxpayers $6B. The Court of Appeal for Ontario was the one who ruled it unconstitutional and forced the payment. The gov shouldn’t have capped salaries for frontline workers like teachers, nurses, and hospital workers, but all the employees sitting at home on zoom for the last 3 years could’ve been curbed. It’s taxpayer money paying public servants and many of them have much high salary bands, better benefits and pensions than private sector workers.
This is unhinged. Things that are unconstitutional get ruled unconstitutional. You don't like the salary and benefits available in the private sector? Join a union.
Right because if you're working an office job from home you deserve to have your salary eroded from a pay freeze while costs of living sky rocket? They're not all cushy jobs, you know. Just like there aren't just wealthy actors and producers affected by a Hollywood labour disputes. There are proportionately way more regular, middle-income folks who bear the brunt of it. So easy for you to dismiss them.
Right? Correctional officers, park cleaners, water and waste treatment technicians, mechanics, and wildland firefighters are public sector employees.
Lol - what a hilariously moronic comment. Tell me you have no idea what public servants do, or what their benefits are, without telling me.
Ontario Public Service staff are not working from home. The first return to work order was in 2021 just after everyone was fully vaccinated. I believe the current 3 mandatory days in the office is more than many corporations.