Ran on it for years, definitely not bikers only. Try to be courteous and keep to the right except to pass but it’s multi-use and there’s signage to that effect.
What I want to know is: who are the joggers who like to run right along the colour line down the middle of the trail? It's the worst use of trail space.
Those are just idiots. Running etiquette dictates that you stick to the right... you stick to the right because the left is for passing and, if you make it difficult to overtake you, that causes other people to have to expend way more energy trying to weave around your slow ass than they should have to. Unfortunately, it is often the slowest, most ridiculous people who flaunt these things, and they also tend to be the ones who just stop suddenly and cause the people behind them to injure themselves avoiding a collision.
I am not sure why common sense eludes people so often in situations like this. It is the same when people walk three or four across and refuse to make room for others, while having the audcaity to look both outraged and confused by others who try to get around them. The same type of doofuses get annoyed by cyclists ringing their bells too. For the record, I LOVE it when cyclists right their bells to let me know they're approaching. I know to double-check that I am as far over as I can be and know to be extra cautious if I plan to pass anyone.
It shouldn't be that hard to grasp that, if you're in a public space, you have no ownership over that space. Be considerate to others because they have just as much right to be there as you do, and your right to use it does not trump theirs. If you'd get annoyed by someone else doing it to you, don't do it to others.
Not that I'm advocating people break convention, but I've always wondered why runners stick to the right on multi-use trails and not the left like they are do (are supposed to) on roadways without sidewalk. It seems like seeing the faster moving vehicles coming would be a good idea.
It's probably safer to pass when you're both moving in the same direction compared to moving towards each other. More leeway in judging distances too. Someone walking vs a car driving is a huge difference in speed and that difference doesn't really change depending on if the person walking towards or away from the car. A bike vs a person jogging, the relative speed difference is very different depending on if they are going towards each other or in the same direction.
You’re not supposed to be going fast enough on paths for there to be risks of high speed crashes. The issue is largely cyclists who speed through without paying much attention to who is around them. It wouldn’t make much sense to have cyclists and walkers go in one direction and runners go in another. If a cyclist is riding fast enough in a path that they can’t safely maneuver around other people using the space, that means they are riding in an inappropriate way for space.
Logic would tell us that the simplest solution to the safety issue would be for cyclists to go at a very leisurely pace on multi-use trails and stick to roadways if they want to travel at faster speeds.
Time to fess up. I've been one of those joggers - accidentally. Sometimes running is a chore and it takes all my focus to keep going, breathe, and make it to the next light. A few times I've drifted while running and found myself suddenly in the middle of the path though I always try to stick the the right and be aware of others around me.
I also really appreciate a little ding from bikers approaching from behind, it brings me back to reality if I've zoned out from the torture of exercise.
Speaking of the Martin Goodman trail, does anyone know for how long this 12 foot wide path is going to be restricted to 3 feet along Doug's Place (formerly Ontario Place)?
It's actually going to get smaller and smaller until he can claim pedestrians and cyclist never use it so we should turn it into an extra lane for cars.
Depends, there are areas such as near Harbourfront center where it is bikes only because there is a sidewalk immediately next to it. There are also sections designated as shared use.
The problem there isn't the joggers or runners so much as the idiots with the vacant, glassy-eyed, cattle-like expressions on their faces just *hanging out* on a path that feels auspiciously a lot more like road than the sidewalk they've been on.
This is good advice. As a runner and cyclist of many years, I stick to sidewalks for my run to be courteous. There's really no need to be on the path unless the sidewalk is totally clogged.
I like to remember that we too often direct our animosity at other trail users in these situations when feedback to the city on "multi-use" pathways is really what's needed. Going down to one lane only with everyone on it is just bad planning.
That's not really true. Paths are lower impact on your joints. Sidewalks are pretty much the hardest thing on your joints that you can run on. If you're putting in a lot of miles, it is better to run on a path or even the road so that you decrease the risk of injury.
I get what you're saying, and, as a runner who puts in a lot of mileage, I still stick to sidewalks wherever there are sidewalks, but asphalt, dirt paths, et cetera are easier/better to run on.
Perhaps it's subjective but I've never noticed a difference.
Edit: Why the downvote? We can be civil here. I'm not an ultra runner but I'm allowed to say that running 80km+ every week it hasn't impacted me.
Concrete is a 'hard' surface (doesn't flex), Asphalt is technically a 'Soft' surface and is designed to flex slightly. Of course, this is probably negligible for the weight of a person.
I don't think you can really gauge things that way because you can't compare the long term impacts of it. You're unable to draw personal conclusions about things that way because you'll never be able to compare what it is like to live a life only running on softer materials vs. living a life only running on concrete. That's why we don't use anecdotal evidence in science... because there are too many variables and you can't objectively compare perception. We can measure things like how much a material absorbs force exerted against it, and we can do scans of peoples joints/muscles/bones et cetera over time.
We know that running in general tends to result in injury over time because of repetitive impact and strain. We know that concrete absorbs less impact than asphalt does. So, while you may not notice things currently, it is likely you will notice something eventually... and you're not really objectively able to draw a conclusion about it because you will never know how your body would feel if you'd done all of those runs on just asphalt or all of those runs on just concrete.
There is research to support that running on concrete creates greater risk of injury. This study compares grass, synthetic track and concrete. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10378879/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10378879/)
We know that grass is the best thing to run on in terms of overall MSK injury, but grass creates other risks because it usually has uneven surfaces and less traction.. so you injure yourself in different ways.
how much force is actually absorbed by asphalt vs concrete? how much force can be dissipated just through your shoes and ankle musculature? the tiny variation in softness of material doesn't really matter if you don't slam your heel into the ground in your strides
Variations in softness of materials does absolutely matter. That is why treadmill running is easier on your joints than outdoor running... because the treadmill itself absorbs some impact. Asphalt is specifically designed to absorb some impact and be flexible. This is why, if you have noticed, roads that have a lot of transport traffic will be a bit warped.. because the asphalt yields to the weight of the transport. Concrete doesn't do this. Concrete breaks.
It would matter, if you were comparing asphalt with grass or sand, something with a measurable tangible amount of give. How much does asphalt warp when a 150lb human steps on it? A few microns? That's not doing anything for your joints if you're landing with all your pressure on your heels. And that wear you see in asphalt isn't from a car passing over it once, it's from thousands of trips of vehicles much heavier than a human wearing the surface down over many months.
Man, are you arguing just for its own sake? Concrete is harder than asphalt; this might not matter for some people but it absolutely does for others. I often have knee trouble when I run on concrete, and never when I run on asphalt. Subtle differences matter when it comes to repetitive joint impacts.
My own eyes. I saw a guy recently come super close to an older couple crossing the trail and then yell at them. This was despite the fact that the trail was quite clear and he could’ve easily avoided them.
So your anecdotal evidence confirms cyclists are just as dangerous as cars even though credible stats overwhelmingly refute that
Stop conflating the danger of cars and bicycles, that’s a comical take
I know that cyclists are not as dangerous as cars. If I get hit by a bike, chances are I’ll be ok even if it fucks my day up. In fact, I never equated the danger.
What I am saying it that in my experience some of them behave in a similar way towards pedestrians/runners on Martin Goodman Trail as cars do towards cyclists on the road. It’s ironic. Share the trail dude. It’s mixed-use, not a bike highway.
I saw a runner almost cause an accident by running in the middle of the path forcing everyone to go around him therefore all runners are bad!
/s
Also, parts of the MGT are for recreation with an adjacent boardwalk for walkers, so walking on the those parts of the trail is actually hazardous.
So you saw this happen once and came to the conclusion it must happen all the time
Funny because I've cycled/run the MGT for decades pretty much without incident
Same, the biggest danger on the MGT are entitled people entering the active roadway without looking left and right with no consideration of traffic flow
Sounds like u/sirprizes is one of them
Sorry I am not going to debatelord you on this. I run the trail literally every day and am not gonna have some random from the internet tell me what I see with my own fucking two eyes ain't the truth. Good luck to you out there destiny.
There are a few MGT segments - maybe east of York on Queen’s Quay, the new portions in the Port Lands, etc - where bike lanes are broken out from the multiuse, but if someone is jogging or walking on there I (get this) ride past just like I do a slow, unsure bike share rider or someone using the DV trails. Ultimately it’s a failure of design and poor signage, but the courteous thing for us cyclists to do navigating these areas of friction is to be chill.
(That being said what IS with the folks who run down the line? lol cmon y’all :))
There are no cycling-exclusive paths in the city. They're all mixed-use paths (Martin Goodman/Waterfront Trail, Don, Humber, Finch Hydro Corridor, Taylor Creek, etc.) You're fine, they were in the wrong.
That's not accurate. There are sections that are dedicated bikeways but very few on MGT. I will say it feels like a technicality though. See map below.
https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-network-map/#location=&lat=43.615448&lng=-79.452353&zoom=13
Are there actually any dedicated bikeways that aren't road gutters with a sidewalk beside them? (It's a big city so probably, but I can't think of any and am wondering if anyone else can)
Some of the bike lane rework they've been doing on Bloor has brought the bike lane up level with the sidewalk if that's what you mean. That's very recent and only a small stretch though.
So exactly what I said.
There are no dedicated *paths* for cyclists. I didn't say cycle tracks or bike lanes. Those "two way paths" you refer to are cycle tracks.
You can't just attribute strict meanings to words and expect people understand them. Especially when you're being very liberal with your use of words like "gutter."
No, it's accurate. I've made the distinction between paths and bike lanes or cycle tracks.
That said, I'm not bothered by runners in the bike lane/cycle track portions near those paths either. My lycra-clad riding ensures I'm nowhere near mixed-use infrastructure. I'm no pathlete and I get the watts out on the open road. MUPs, cycle tracks, etc. are excellent for my slower commuting though.
Martin Goodman trail is mixed use as everyone else has said.
However, there's a section between the Humber bridge and Ontario Place where there's two trails. The unwritten courtesy is that walkers/joggers use the trail right against the lake, and cyclists use the trail closer to Lake Shore Blvd.
That said, you can use whatever trail you want and nobody should be screaming at you. The losers in their spandex on their road bikes think they own the trail - ignore them.
Additionally west of Humber bridge in the Humber Bay Park the trail breaks off into two separate trails specifically marked for bikes or pedestrians. As one of those losers in Lycra I always try to be courteous, let people know I’m coming behind them etc. Just takes a little situational awareness and patience on the part of everyone.
You're not one of the assholes then :)
I was passing 2 cyclists going slowly taking up the entire Eastbound side of the path, crossing over the line slightly. Asshole time trialer going Westbound with nobody next to him, and right next to the centreline refused to move, almost caused a collision with me, then shouted at me for being over the line.
Like, dude, my entire path is blocked, and you've got 5 feet next to you to move over.
Sounds like he was being unreasonable, but at the same time… you should only pass when the path is clear.
Hard to judge without being there, but passing should never force anyone else to move for you, especially incoming traffic.
If dude was riding the middle then you didn’t have a safe passing space, even if he is a bit of a dick.
I was curious about it, and looked at Google Streetview. I could see how someone wouldn't know, since there are more runners on the "bike" trail than bikes. Seems like from Streetview, slow people (walkers) take the walking trail, and fast people (bikers and runners) take the bike trail. Especially since it isn't officially designated
mixed use trails are mix use.
but what direction were you going/ what side were you running on / which way were you facing?
if you're running in such a way that it's going to be difficult and/or dangerous for a cyclist to get around you and/or get your attention... that might be why they're mad.
I got yelled at while on that trail and I was on a bike. I always keep to the far right because I like a nice easy going bike ride and don’t want to be in the way. A guy in full gear speeds past me and yells, “Get out of the way you pixie rider!” I was confused. I think about it often.
They probably actually said “*Bixi* rider”. Bixi was the old name for Toronto Bike Share. Some of us still regularly call it that, much like how we still call the Jays’ stadium the SkyDome.
As much as I love bike share, including the role it has played in getting more people out and biking, it’s an unfortunate fact that bike share riders do tend to be less experienced cyclists, and therefore typically don’t know or follow common cycling etiquette and are also the most likely to suddenly pull some pretty braindead moves (more than once I’ve been cut off by a bike share rider who suddenly decided to do a 180 on the MGT, “good luck everyone else!” style).
The guy that yelled at you was just being a dick, though. That kind of nonsense is uncalled for.
Probably an entitled person venting out their life's failures at you.
That trail is multi use. So keep running on it.
And it's not just this cyclist. Sometimes a random runner would yell at you if you are running slow.
Just ignore such people.
Multi-use. Just use common sense and keep to the right so people can pass you easily.
My only gripe with that trail is when clueless pedestrians sprawl across the trail with no awareness of their surroundings and don't allow people to pass without yelling at them or crossing into the opposing lane to do so. Why anyone would walk on the trail when there's usually a perfectly good sidewalk right beside it always puzzles me.
Martin Goodman trail has always been mixed use. Sadly, it is mostly only a single trail that would better suit a city < 1/10 the size of this one.
See Chicago waterfront for lakeshore trails done right.
Honestly any time you are on a trail that allow cyclists, one entitled cyclist will ride by you and tell you off. It happens. Most are courteous but I ALWAYS run into one person dressed in their little Biking Outfit with their $5000 bike with a complex who will shout something on their way.
It’s the Martin Goodman Trail/Waterfront Rec. Trail and it is shared.
There are signs everywhere indicating this
https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/s/KBYw613oVT
Multi use trail. I walk on it all the time. Just keep to the right and don’t bother worrying about the bikers who think it’s their race track. It’s not.
I live on the waterfront and use the trail almost daily for running and cycling (both commuting and exercise). Generally speaking, if you're a pedestrian on the trail I would highly recommend the following:
1. If there's an adjacent sidewalk (a significant proportion of the trail downtown has a sidewalk right next to it), please use it instead of the trail, especially if you're part of a group and want to walk 2-abreast or wider. There will be virtually zero conflicts between pedestrians, cyclists, and runners on the sidewalk; it's also usually more spacious than the trail and closer to the local scenery (water, park, etc.) This goes double for anyone with young children: this really isn't the place to let your kids roam free.
2. If there's no sidewalk, please keep as far to the right of the trail as you comfortably can — folks on wheels will think of the space as a 3- or 4-lane road, where the inside lanes are used for passing. Walking or standing in the middle makes it so folks have to pass you on the right and risk running into the ditch or conflicting with whomever is in front of you, which is not fun for anyone.
3. Lastly, *please* don't stop on the trail — again, there's almost always space a few steps away for relaxation, taking selfies, texting, etc.
It is a multi-use train but some parts indicate that pedestrians and cyclists have designated areas. Having said that, a lot of runners use the cycling portion since they’re faster and don’t want to be caught behind groups and no one generally cares. You likely just caught someone in a bad mood.
I bike on the MGT most days and some of the hardcore lycra guys have given me dirty looks or worse because they were slightly impeded by something I did. Some people are just grumpy.
It’s mixed use but there are sections of it that have defined areas for biking vs walking/running, I.e. just west of the humber river bridge. Where exactly were you?
As an aside, I had a family of tourists on Bixi bikes incessantly ringing their bells at me once when I was out for a run, because they couldn't figure out how to ride around me. I was like, 'squad, you need to find a better place on a Saturday afternoon in the summer to learn how to ride a bike'.
(and yes, I was on the far right edge of the path).
No its a mixed use trail. The official rules (posted). Keep to the right. Cyclist ring bell and pass on the left. Running, hiking, cycling is allowed. They even have a picture of a stick man with hiking sticks. Technically a maximum of 20km/hour. So all those spandex wearing speed racers are technically breaking the rules. Also no motorized electric bikes. However I saw that sign on the bathurst side. Its a loooong trail.
I don’t understand the bikers raging at joggers and pedestrians on MGT. What are y’all so mad about?
Bike rides are supposed to be a relaxing experience. But y’all are actively out there, mad at fuck knows what, stirring shit up ruining everyone else’s day. You’re the reason people hate bikers.
Calm down and enjoy your ride.
Yeah. I was at walking at Tommy Thompson and a MAMIL yelled at me for not staying to the left. Some cyclists in this city (usually MAMILs) are just dickheads. As a cyclist, I apologize on their behalf.
Weird. I’m not sure when it changed, but traditionally a Fred was basically the opposite of the typical MAMIL or “serious roadie” (read: poseur). The archetypal Fred was that bearded guy wearing cargo shorts and sandals and riding an old steel touring bike.
I use that trail for biking. Runners don't bother me one bit! However casual walkers crossing without looking urghhh. There should have been more of a divide between spaces but Toronto and city planning don't go together it seems
That trail is just over used at this point, it's a pain to use as a cyclist because there's always tons of people walking on it. Which is very frustrating
The city should make it clear that it's for bikes only and make a separate path for joggers
It's considered the martin Goodman trail. It is a MIXED USAGE trail.
There's also a 20kmph speed limit for bikes.
Ebikes are not allowed (pedelectrics are, like the bikeshare electric bikes)
Definitely not for cyclists only. Some cyclists are jerks. I do try to stay on the right side if I’m running and leave space on the left for cyclists/faster runners to pass. As long as you’re aware of your surroundings and don’t take up the whole trail, you’re fine
The Martin Goodman Trail is a multi use pathway but good luck convincing Toronto’s hopelessly entitled cycling community to agree with you. You will continue to be yelled at by random cyclists but you are in the right.
There are sections beyond that boat club (Boulevard Club?) where it splits into two. In those sections, there can be lanes meant for bikes and another for runners and walking
it's a mixed use path but it is annoying when people run along it, considering it can be done on the sidewalk as well. I'm not running on a busy path if I don't have to.
If you’re talking about the queens quay path that’s for bikers and some runners go but it is clearly for bikers, since it even has bikes painted on the ground with arrows and doesn’t show runners lol
The great Lakes waterfront/martin Goodman trail is **multi-use** (all forms of active transportation - including wheelchair use), not exclusive to bicycle use.
Inside Coronation park by Lakeshore there seems to be two separate trails - one for running and the other for bikes but it doesn't say so. Bikers are entitled assholes. Ignore them.
Don Valley trail might be for both but a lot of sections are totally made for mountain bikes with deep bends, jumps and wooden arcs and sewsaws. So if you do decide to walk in those keep your wits about you cause you can’t stop momentum and gravity.
IMO, it makes no sense for runners to be on the biking side of trails where there are distinct walking/running areas. In Vancouver, runners use the walking side, which makes much more sense. In Toronto, runners almost exclusively use the biking side.
Lakeshore is a pretty long trail so we can't answer without any context of where exactly you are referring.
The simple answer is to look at the signage. It will be designated as a "bike path" or a "shared use" trail. Hint, if it's directly beside a sidewalk, it's a bike trail 😉
Ran on it for years, definitely not bikers only. Try to be courteous and keep to the right except to pass but it’s multi-use and there’s signage to that effect.
What I want to know is: who are the joggers who like to run right along the colour line down the middle of the trail? It's the worst use of trail space.
Those are just idiots. Running etiquette dictates that you stick to the right... you stick to the right because the left is for passing and, if you make it difficult to overtake you, that causes other people to have to expend way more energy trying to weave around your slow ass than they should have to. Unfortunately, it is often the slowest, most ridiculous people who flaunt these things, and they also tend to be the ones who just stop suddenly and cause the people behind them to injure themselves avoiding a collision. I am not sure why common sense eludes people so often in situations like this. It is the same when people walk three or four across and refuse to make room for others, while having the audcaity to look both outraged and confused by others who try to get around them. The same type of doofuses get annoyed by cyclists ringing their bells too. For the record, I LOVE it when cyclists right their bells to let me know they're approaching. I know to double-check that I am as far over as I can be and know to be extra cautious if I plan to pass anyone. It shouldn't be that hard to grasp that, if you're in a public space, you have no ownership over that space. Be considerate to others because they have just as much right to be there as you do, and your right to use it does not trump theirs. If you'd get annoyed by someone else doing it to you, don't do it to others.
Not that I'm advocating people break convention, but I've always wondered why runners stick to the right on multi-use trails and not the left like they are do (are supposed to) on roadways without sidewalk. It seems like seeing the faster moving vehicles coming would be a good idea.
It's probably safer to pass when you're both moving in the same direction compared to moving towards each other. More leeway in judging distances too. Someone walking vs a car driving is a huge difference in speed and that difference doesn't really change depending on if the person walking towards or away from the car. A bike vs a person jogging, the relative speed difference is very different depending on if they are going towards each other or in the same direction.
You’re not supposed to be going fast enough on paths for there to be risks of high speed crashes. The issue is largely cyclists who speed through without paying much attention to who is around them. It wouldn’t make much sense to have cyclists and walkers go in one direction and runners go in another. If a cyclist is riding fast enough in a path that they can’t safely maneuver around other people using the space, that means they are riding in an inappropriate way for space. Logic would tell us that the simplest solution to the safety issue would be for cyclists to go at a very leisurely pace on multi-use trails and stick to roadways if they want to travel at faster speeds.
Same ones that get into their cars and cruise down the left lane.
Time to fess up. I've been one of those joggers - accidentally. Sometimes running is a chore and it takes all my focus to keep going, breathe, and make it to the next light. A few times I've drifted while running and found myself suddenly in the middle of the path though I always try to stick the the right and be aware of others around me. I also really appreciate a little ding from bikers approaching from behind, it brings me back to reality if I've zoned out from the torture of exercise.
Speaking of the Martin Goodman trail, does anyone know for how long this 12 foot wide path is going to be restricted to 3 feet along Doug's Place (formerly Ontario Place)?
It's actually going to get smaller and smaller until he can claim pedestrians and cyclist never use it so we should turn it into an extra lane for cars.
Depends, there are areas such as near Harbourfront center where it is bikes only because there is a sidewalk immediately next to it. There are also sections designated as shared use.
The problem there isn't the joggers or runners so much as the idiots with the vacant, glassy-eyed, cattle-like expressions on their faces just *hanging out* on a path that feels auspiciously a lot more like road than the sidewalk they've been on.
I believe the signage is the same there? Edit: [yup](https://maps.app.goo.gl/1j58T76D56ms6Lpv8?g_st=ac)
Ah fair enough
This is good advice. As a runner and cyclist of many years, I stick to sidewalks for my run to be courteous. There's really no need to be on the path unless the sidewalk is totally clogged. I like to remember that we too often direct our animosity at other trail users in these situations when feedback to the city on "multi-use" pathways is really what's needed. Going down to one lane only with everyone on it is just bad planning.
That's not really true. Paths are lower impact on your joints. Sidewalks are pretty much the hardest thing on your joints that you can run on. If you're putting in a lot of miles, it is better to run on a path or even the road so that you decrease the risk of injury. I get what you're saying, and, as a runner who puts in a lot of mileage, I still stick to sidewalks wherever there are sidewalks, but asphalt, dirt paths, et cetera are easier/better to run on.
Perhaps it's subjective but I've never noticed a difference. Edit: Why the downvote? We can be civil here. I'm not an ultra runner but I'm allowed to say that running 80km+ every week it hasn't impacted me.
For what it’s worth, a quick google search doesn’t really show any real evidence either way
Concrete is a 'hard' surface (doesn't flex), Asphalt is technically a 'Soft' surface and is designed to flex slightly. Of course, this is probably negligible for the weight of a person.
I don't think you can really gauge things that way because you can't compare the long term impacts of it. You're unable to draw personal conclusions about things that way because you'll never be able to compare what it is like to live a life only running on softer materials vs. living a life only running on concrete. That's why we don't use anecdotal evidence in science... because there are too many variables and you can't objectively compare perception. We can measure things like how much a material absorbs force exerted against it, and we can do scans of peoples joints/muscles/bones et cetera over time. We know that running in general tends to result in injury over time because of repetitive impact and strain. We know that concrete absorbs less impact than asphalt does. So, while you may not notice things currently, it is likely you will notice something eventually... and you're not really objectively able to draw a conclusion about it because you will never know how your body would feel if you'd done all of those runs on just asphalt or all of those runs on just concrete. There is research to support that running on concrete creates greater risk of injury. This study compares grass, synthetic track and concrete. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10378879/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10378879/) We know that grass is the best thing to run on in terms of overall MSK injury, but grass creates other risks because it usually has uneven surfaces and less traction.. so you injure yourself in different ways.
Your knees will eventually let you know.
how much force is actually absorbed by asphalt vs concrete? how much force can be dissipated just through your shoes and ankle musculature? the tiny variation in softness of material doesn't really matter if you don't slam your heel into the ground in your strides
Variations in softness of materials does absolutely matter. That is why treadmill running is easier on your joints than outdoor running... because the treadmill itself absorbs some impact. Asphalt is specifically designed to absorb some impact and be flexible. This is why, if you have noticed, roads that have a lot of transport traffic will be a bit warped.. because the asphalt yields to the weight of the transport. Concrete doesn't do this. Concrete breaks.
It would matter, if you were comparing asphalt with grass or sand, something with a measurable tangible amount of give. How much does asphalt warp when a 150lb human steps on it? A few microns? That's not doing anything for your joints if you're landing with all your pressure on your heels. And that wear you see in asphalt isn't from a car passing over it once, it's from thousands of trips of vehicles much heavier than a human wearing the surface down over many months.
Man, are you arguing just for its own sake? Concrete is harder than asphalt; this might not matter for some people but it absolutely does for others. I often have knee trouble when I run on concrete, and never when I run on asphalt. Subtle differences matter when it comes to repetitive joint impacts.
Don’t run it on the right. Run on the left against traffic so you can see cyclists coming and move to left to avoid them.
The martin Goodman trail? those are multi use trails and always full of both cyclers and joggers
Cyclists are the cars of Martin Goodman Trail.
It's so funny how they can't see the irony when they blow up at pedestrians
Stats to back that up?
My own eyes. I saw a guy recently come super close to an older couple crossing the trail and then yell at them. This was despite the fact that the trail was quite clear and he could’ve easily avoided them.
So your anecdotal evidence confirms cyclists are just as dangerous as cars even though credible stats overwhelmingly refute that Stop conflating the danger of cars and bicycles, that’s a comical take
I think you took that comment far more literally than it was meant to be taken
I know that cyclists are not as dangerous as cars. If I get hit by a bike, chances are I’ll be ok even if it fucks my day up. In fact, I never equated the danger. What I am saying it that in my experience some of them behave in a similar way towards pedestrians/runners on Martin Goodman Trail as cars do towards cyclists on the road. It’s ironic. Share the trail dude. It’s mixed-use, not a bike highway.
I saw a runner almost cause an accident by running in the middle of the path forcing everyone to go around him therefore all runners are bad! /s Also, parts of the MGT are for recreation with an adjacent boardwalk for walkers, so walking on the those parts of the trail is actually hazardous.
Change a couple words and you sound car-brained as fuck lol.
Im the carbrain? 😂😂 Gaslight much
So you saw this happen once and came to the conclusion it must happen all the time Funny because I've cycled/run the MGT for decades pretty much without incident
I run there too. It’s usually fine but it happens, I’ve seen it. Not unlike cars vs bikes on the road.
Same, the biggest danger on the MGT are entitled people entering the active roadway without looking left and right with no consideration of traffic flow Sounds like u/sirprizes is one of them
Got 'em. I looked it up and it turns out that 0% of bicycles are cars. This guy's just making things up to fit his agenda.
I have eyes and can see.
Yet you can’t provide an example
Sorry I am not going to debatelord you on this. I run the trail literally every day and am not gonna have some random from the internet tell me what I see with my own fucking two eyes ain't the truth. Good luck to you out there destiny.
There are a few MGT segments - maybe east of York on Queen’s Quay, the new portions in the Port Lands, etc - where bike lanes are broken out from the multiuse, but if someone is jogging or walking on there I (get this) ride past just like I do a slow, unsure bike share rider or someone using the DV trails. Ultimately it’s a failure of design and poor signage, but the courteous thing for us cyclists to do navigating these areas of friction is to be chill. (That being said what IS with the folks who run down the line? lol cmon y’all :))
There are no cycling-exclusive paths in the city. They're all mixed-use paths (Martin Goodman/Waterfront Trail, Don, Humber, Finch Hydro Corridor, Taylor Creek, etc.) You're fine, they were in the wrong.
That's not accurate. There are sections that are dedicated bikeways but very few on MGT. I will say it feels like a technicality though. See map below. https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-network-map/#location=&lat=43.615448&lng=-79.452353&zoom=13
Are there actually any dedicated bikeways that aren't road gutters with a sidewalk beside them? (It's a big city so probably, but I can't think of any and am wondering if anyone else can)
Some of the bike lane rework they've been doing on Bloor has brought the bike lane up level with the sidewalk if that's what you mean. That's very recent and only a small stretch though.
Couldn't say but I suspect no. Generally it's bike gutters or two-way paths on roadside.
So exactly what I said. There are no dedicated *paths* for cyclists. I didn't say cycle tracks or bike lanes. Those "two way paths" you refer to are cycle tracks.
Mate, you're not wrong but not everything needs to be an argument.
Not trying to argue, just trying to get facts straight.
You can't just attribute strict meanings to words and expect people understand them. Especially when you're being very liberal with your use of words like "gutter."
Thanks for sharing!
No problem. We could all be better at sharing though. I do think it's courteous to run on the sidewalk though for the sake of our fellow trail users.
No, it's accurate. I've made the distinction between paths and bike lanes or cycle tracks. That said, I'm not bothered by runners in the bike lane/cycle track portions near those paths either. My lycra-clad riding ensures I'm nowhere near mixed-use infrastructure. I'm no pathlete and I get the watts out on the open road. MUPs, cycle tracks, etc. are excellent for my slower commuting though.
I ride it daily and I have no issues with runners using it. Please just go single file if you are in a group and don’t take up the whole path.
Same goes for cyclists in the busy areas.
Agreed…. People in general need to learn what single file is 😭
Martin Goodman trail is mixed use as everyone else has said. However, there's a section between the Humber bridge and Ontario Place where there's two trails. The unwritten courtesy is that walkers/joggers use the trail right against the lake, and cyclists use the trail closer to Lake Shore Blvd. That said, you can use whatever trail you want and nobody should be screaming at you. The losers in their spandex on their road bikes think they own the trail - ignore them.
Additionally west of Humber bridge in the Humber Bay Park the trail breaks off into two separate trails specifically marked for bikes or pedestrians. As one of those losers in Lycra I always try to be courteous, let people know I’m coming behind them etc. Just takes a little situational awareness and patience on the part of everyone.
You're not one of the assholes then :) I was passing 2 cyclists going slowly taking up the entire Eastbound side of the path, crossing over the line slightly. Asshole time trialer going Westbound with nobody next to him, and right next to the centreline refused to move, almost caused a collision with me, then shouted at me for being over the line. Like, dude, my entire path is blocked, and you've got 5 feet next to you to move over.
Sounds like he was being unreasonable, but at the same time… you should only pass when the path is clear. Hard to judge without being there, but passing should never force anyone else to move for you, especially incoming traffic. If dude was riding the middle then you didn’t have a safe passing space, even if he is a bit of a dick.
I've been yelled at for being on the path between the light at Parkside and the Sunnyside pool. lol The audacity of some people.
I was curious about it, and looked at Google Streetview. I could see how someone wouldn't know, since there are more runners on the "bike" trail than bikes. Seems like from Streetview, slow people (walkers) take the walking trail, and fast people (bikers and runners) take the bike trail. Especially since it isn't officially designated
These areas need some paint lines IMO.
mixed use trails are mix use. but what direction were you going/ what side were you running on / which way were you facing? if you're running in such a way that it's going to be difficult and/or dangerous for a cyclist to get around you and/or get your attention... that might be why they're mad.
I'm on the right side of the right lane. And I was jogging on my own. My pace was fast for the sidewalk and slower than some runners.
I got yelled at while on that trail and I was on a bike. I always keep to the far right because I like a nice easy going bike ride and don’t want to be in the way. A guy in full gear speeds past me and yells, “Get out of the way you pixie rider!” I was confused. I think about it often.
They probably actually said “*Bixi* rider”. Bixi was the old name for Toronto Bike Share. Some of us still regularly call it that, much like how we still call the Jays’ stadium the SkyDome. As much as I love bike share, including the role it has played in getting more people out and biking, it’s an unfortunate fact that bike share riders do tend to be less experienced cyclists, and therefore typically don’t know or follow common cycling etiquette and are also the most likely to suddenly pull some pretty braindead moves (more than once I’ve been cut off by a bike share rider who suddenly decided to do a 180 on the MGT, “good luck everyone else!” style). The guy that yelled at you was just being a dick, though. That kind of nonsense is uncalled for.
That makes a lot more sense. I kinda liked the idea of being called a mythological creature. I was also on my own bike 🤷🏻♀️
O.o
Probably an entitled person venting out their life's failures at you. That trail is multi use. So keep running on it. And it's not just this cyclist. Sometimes a random runner would yell at you if you are running slow. Just ignore such people.
Multi-use. Just use common sense and keep to the right so people can pass you easily. My only gripe with that trail is when clueless pedestrians sprawl across the trail with no awareness of their surroundings and don't allow people to pass without yelling at them or crossing into the opposing lane to do so. Why anyone would walk on the trail when there's usually a perfectly good sidewalk right beside it always puzzles me.
Just keep right, it's not complicated. Kind of like a road.
Martin Goodman trail has always been mixed use. Sadly, it is mostly only a single trail that would better suit a city < 1/10 the size of this one. See Chicago waterfront for lakeshore trails done right.
Honestly any time you are on a trail that allow cyclists, one entitled cyclist will ride by you and tell you off. It happens. Most are courteous but I ALWAYS run into one person dressed in their little Biking Outfit with their $5000 bike with a complex who will shout something on their way.
It’s the Martin Goodman Trail/Waterfront Rec. Trail and it is shared. There are signs everywhere indicating this https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/s/KBYw613oVT
It's a mixed used trail. I cycle, walk, and run it all the time. Next time it happens tell him or her to fuck off.
Multi use trail. I walk on it all the time. Just keep to the right and don’t bother worrying about the bikers who think it’s their race track. It’s not.
I get running, but why are you walking on that trail when there is a sidewalk literally next to it?
The part that I walk on West of Strachan has no sidewalk next to it. If there were one just for walking I would stick to that.
I live on the waterfront and use the trail almost daily for running and cycling (both commuting and exercise). Generally speaking, if you're a pedestrian on the trail I would highly recommend the following: 1. If there's an adjacent sidewalk (a significant proportion of the trail downtown has a sidewalk right next to it), please use it instead of the trail, especially if you're part of a group and want to walk 2-abreast or wider. There will be virtually zero conflicts between pedestrians, cyclists, and runners on the sidewalk; it's also usually more spacious than the trail and closer to the local scenery (water, park, etc.) This goes double for anyone with young children: this really isn't the place to let your kids roam free. 2. If there's no sidewalk, please keep as far to the right of the trail as you comfortably can — folks on wheels will think of the space as a 3- or 4-lane road, where the inside lanes are used for passing. Walking or standing in the middle makes it so folks have to pass you on the right and risk running into the ditch or conflicting with whomever is in front of you, which is not fun for anyone. 3. Lastly, *please* don't stop on the trail — again, there's almost always space a few steps away for relaxation, taking selfies, texting, etc.
It is a multi-use train but some parts indicate that pedestrians and cyclists have designated areas. Having said that, a lot of runners use the cycling portion since they’re faster and don’t want to be caught behind groups and no one generally cares. You likely just caught someone in a bad mood. I bike on the MGT most days and some of the hardcore lycra guys have given me dirty looks or worse because they were slightly impeded by something I did. Some people are just grumpy.
It’s mixed use but there are sections of it that have defined areas for biking vs walking/running, I.e. just west of the humber river bridge. Where exactly were you?
It's a multi use trail.
As an aside, I had a family of tourists on Bixi bikes incessantly ringing their bells at me once when I was out for a run, because they couldn't figure out how to ride around me. I was like, 'squad, you need to find a better place on a Saturday afternoon in the summer to learn how to ride a bike'. (and yes, I was on the far right edge of the path).
This same biker screams outrage when cars beep or don’t observe bike lanes while turning. Classic double standards.
No its a mixed use trail. The official rules (posted). Keep to the right. Cyclist ring bell and pass on the left. Running, hiking, cycling is allowed. They even have a picture of a stick man with hiking sticks. Technically a maximum of 20km/hour. So all those spandex wearing speed racers are technically breaking the rules. Also no motorized electric bikes. However I saw that sign on the bathurst side. Its a loooong trail.
Cyclist here. You're definitely allowed to use the trail.
I don’t understand the bikers raging at joggers and pedestrians on MGT. What are y’all so mad about? Bike rides are supposed to be a relaxing experience. But y’all are actively out there, mad at fuck knows what, stirring shit up ruining everyone else’s day. You’re the reason people hate bikers. Calm down and enjoy your ride.
Yeah. I was at walking at Tommy Thompson and a MAMIL yelled at me for not staying to the left. Some cyclists in this city (usually MAMILs) are just dickheads. As a cyclist, I apologize on their behalf.
I'm convinced that most MAMILs are also German car drivers.
Mamil? What does that mean
[удалено]
That is the most accurate description I’ve ever heard
I like calling them spandex jockeys
Also known as Freds. "Did you see that Fred? He's rocking a beer gut that sways in the wind but his full carbon Fred sled has to be worth $20,000"
Weird. I’m not sure when it changed, but traditionally a Fred was basically the opposite of the typical MAMIL or “serious roadie” (read: poseur). The archetypal Fred was that bearded guy wearing cargo shorts and sandals and riding an old steel touring bike.
You are on to something there.
You can run there, it’s a trail, not a cycle track. Just try to stay on the right side of the trail to let faster traffic pass you.
I use that trail for biking. Runners don't bother me one bit! However casual walkers crossing without looking urghhh. There should have been more of a divide between spaces but Toronto and city planning don't go together it seems
That’s just typical cyclist behavior, ignore them and carry on
That trail is just over used at this point, it's a pain to use as a cyclist because there's always tons of people walking on it. Which is very frustrating The city should make it clear that it's for bikes only and make a separate path for joggers
It's considered the martin Goodman trail. It is a MIXED USAGE trail. There's also a 20kmph speed limit for bikes. Ebikes are not allowed (pedelectrics are, like the bikeshare electric bikes)
Definitely not for cyclists only. Some cyclists are jerks. I do try to stay on the right side if I’m running and leave space on the left for cyclists/faster runners to pass. As long as you’re aware of your surroundings and don’t take up the whole trail, you’re fine
The Martin Goodman Trail is a multi use pathway but good luck convincing Toronto’s hopelessly entitled cycling community to agree with you. You will continue to be yelled at by random cyclists but you are in the right.
There are sections beyond that boat club (Boulevard Club?) where it splits into two. In those sections, there can be lanes meant for bikes and another for runners and walking
Definitely not just for bikers but just make sure you don't run in the middle of the trail
it's a mixed use path but it is annoying when people run along it, considering it can be done on the sidewalk as well. I'm not running on a busy path if I don't have to.
If you’re talking about the queens quay path that’s for bikers and some runners go but it is clearly for bikers, since it even has bikes painted on the ground with arrows and doesn’t show runners lol
The signs posted indicate it’s for cyclists and joggers.
The great Lakes waterfront/martin Goodman trail is **multi-use** (all forms of active transportation - including wheelchair use), not exclusive to bicycle use.
In some parts it's a mixed trail but there might be bike lanes in some areas separate from the trail. Depends on where you were.
Inside Coronation park by Lakeshore there seems to be two separate trails - one for running and the other for bikes but it doesn't say so. Bikers are entitled assholes. Ignore them.
Don Valley trail might be for both but a lot of sections are totally made for mountain bikes with deep bends, jumps and wooden arcs and sewsaws. So if you do decide to walk in those keep your wits about you cause you can’t stop momentum and gravity.
IMO, it makes no sense for runners to be on the biking side of trails where there are distinct walking/running areas. In Vancouver, runners use the walking side, which makes much more sense. In Toronto, runners almost exclusively use the biking side.
You can ignore all cyclists. They’re dickholes
Lakeshore is a pretty long trail so we can't answer without any context of where exactly you are referring. The simple answer is to look at the signage. It will be designated as a "bike path" or a "shared use" trail. Hint, if it's directly beside a sidewalk, it's a bike trail 😉