Well yeah, they can also ban things that people use instead of trying to find a common middle ground. It’s clear personalized e-transport is gaining popularity
They're not actually *illegal* just *illegal to use on city streets/paths/...*. There was a question from one of the councillors today about whether police could confiscate them when giving a ticket and the answer was "no" because of that.
So this is similar to smoking, it's illegal to smoke almost anywhere, still you see people smoking while walking, it's rarely enforced, and they sell cigarettes everywhere.
More info on low speed vehicles
https://www.ontario.ca/page/low-speed-vehicle-pilot-program
Here's a road test of a Wink one in NYC
https://youtu.be/xQdnYUTw5qE?si=bR1kroBoMg_WZJaJ
Very cool.
They also need to start restricting gigantic personal vehicles in the downtown core.
Require a specific permit and make it prohibitively expensive for individuals who wish to drive their massive pavement princess, bro-dozer pickups and SUVs downtown.
Lemme be honest. At this rate, Toronto will be the last major city in North America to have a fully pedestrianized neighborhood. Despite having the [highest population density in NA](https://i1.wp.com/fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/FCPP-1.png). Even Montreal has it. Colorado too (summer). New York. San Fransisco. Washington.
The horses have long since left the stable when it comes to this issue. Councillors burying their heads in the sand will not put the genie back in the bottle.
A better idea would be to legalize the use of personally owned escooters while continuing to keep escooter rental companies out of the city. One of the biggest objections to legalizing escooters in the City is about rental scooters being discarded on public sidewalks, creating obstacles and hazards for pedestrians. This would be a non-issue if only personally owned scooters were legal.
Other issues commonly cited as reasons to keep the status quo in place have to do with issues like sidewalk riding. But that's an issue with legal forms of micromobility (eg. traditional bikes, ebikes, etc.) too, and the best way to address that issue is by continuing to improve our separated bike infrastructure citywide.
The discarding of rental scooters could probably be solved the same way that car share services work - if you are parked somewhere not permitted, you can't end the rental. Have little parking areas for the scooters like bike share stations.
GPS isn't really accurate enough for "good" or "bad" placement unless you've got docks or enclosures to enforce it. And frankly I'd rather install more bike share docks if we have sidewalk space, rather than a parallel system with different vehicles.
The thing is, scooters are more accessible for some people than bikes so it's nice to have the choice. It's a lot easier to ride a scooter as well as dismount a scooter and walk it on a sidewalk if you're feeling unsafe in heavy traffic, etc than it is a bike. And I swear I'm not just saying that because I'm too short to ride the bike share bikes with the seat at the lowest height (though that's also true 🥲)
Lime is a scooter rental company. They operate in lots of cities, including Dubai where the government is involved in almost everything.
The scooters in Dubai are GPS fenced and it is highly accurate - within 1m I'd say. In Dubai, they have zones for reduced speeds, zones where parking is disallowed, zones that disable the motor, and so on. Lime is a private company that interfaces with all of that.
The technology already exists; I have personal experience using it. GPS fencing for scooters could work in Toronto.
One other risk identified by staff are that many of our roads are in such poor condition that something with a small wheel like a scooter is dangerous to operate. A bike at least can handle pot holes more easily.
"We are either unable or unwilling keep our roads safe for all forms of transportation. Instead of actually doing something about that, we're just going to keep escooters illegal because our negligence means they might not be safe to operate." - the City of Toronto, apparently.
If I had to pick, I'd say unable. But [it's a problem across the country](https://www.tvo.org/article/we-arent-taking-care-of-our-infrastructure-and-its-not-just-a-toronto-problem) it's just more visible municipally.
Roads are fine for anything with bigger wheels including wheelchairs and mobility scooters. E-scooters simply aren't practical enough to increase an entire city's road maintenance budget.
At least in Toronto, the biggest objection is definitely not with rentals being left out. There are major concerns about the potential safety risks they pose, especially with seniors and those with disabilities. I suggest you look into AODA Alliance’s posts about e-scooters if you want to hear their points against. Secondary to that is enforcement, insurance concerns, and of course, rentals being left out. Here is a report from 2021 if you wanted more reading https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/ie/bgrd/backgroundfile-165818.pdf
You think the solution is simple because you completely ignored the concerns that are difficult to address.
Those safety risks also apply to other forms of micromobility that are perfectly legal, but they only get brought up when we're talking about escooters. As I said in my original comment, the best solution to these issues is continuing to improve our physically separated bike infrastructure so that there's less motivation/incentive to ride bikes/escooters/etc. on the sidewalk.
Also, the biggest risk to pedestrians, including disabled people and seniors has always been - and remains - cars. In fact, pedestrians with disabilities [are at a significantly higher risk of being injured and killed by drivers](https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1353829222001575). And yet, nobody claiming to care about accessibility in these kinds of conversations ever brings that up.
It is disingenuous to mention car injuries when discussing the safety of e-scooters. There is a low chance of a car operating on the sidewalk, but the same can not be said about e-scooters. Some preliminary research suggests scooters are more dangerous than other micro options. Some research suggests the opposite. It is an open question.
I would absolutely love to see enhanced bike infrastructure. That way there could be less cars on the road and a way to implement e-scooters safely. That being said, if the increased risk e-scooters impose on at-risk groups is true, prematurely implementing them without the infrastructure may be devastating.
If e-scooters are on the sidewalk, it's because they aren't allowed on the bike lanes (which they should be), or because the roads are so dangerous that they will use the sidewalk instead.
This problem can be easily solved by having bike lanes be more than just bike lanes because a lot of other means of micromobility can keep up with bikes, such as scooters (mobility or razor-style) e-boards, rollerblades and maybe even golf carts.
Bike lanes should be treated like the road. Fast, one way directional traffic from point A to point B along a network and allow a wide variety of "vehicles" as long as they have the capacity to maintain enough speed during the commute.
There are already several lobbying groups involved in the discussion. Bringing changes to bike lanes as the solution will make this even more heated as more groups try to get their voices heard. [https://www.cycleto.ca/active\_and\_e\_mobility](https://www.cycleto.ca/active_and_e_mobility)
>This problem can be easily solved by having bike lanes be more than just bike lanes
Dedicated bike lanes are already full of things not allowed to be in bike lanes including pedestrians, e-scooters, regular scooters, rollerbladers, e-bikes, ICE motorcycles, one-wheels, and hoverboards.
Nobody that is riding anything on the sidewalk is doing it because they think that it's not allowed in the bike lane.
>here is a low chance of a car operating on the sidewalk, but the same can not be said about e-scooters.
This has not been helped by banning them from the roads and bike paths.
I'm suggesting that people who make a big deal about the safety threat posed by e-scooters are being disingenuous.
It simply isn't a significant factor, but it sure sounds good. Especially when you mention vulnerable people when you bring it up.
The individual in the position has spent their entire career supporting micro-mobility options. I am having trouble understanding why they would be disingenuous about the threats imposed by e-scooters.
Honestly with the shit bike lane network, constant construction causing next level congestion, and a deteriorating TTC, it *really* feels like the City of Toronto is trying to prevent *anyone* from getting places.
>soon Toronto's master plan of making it impossible to use a vehicle to travel will be complete!
Sounds perfect for the downtown core. Personal vehicles shouldn't be permitted on most streets.
Personally I'm fine with bikes but e-scooters are too quick and too frequently used on sidewalks. As a pedestrian they're more dangerous than cyclists but nowhere near as bad as cars, obviously.
If you want rid of cars to the extent that you want them banned on most streets, you need as many alternatives as possible. It can't just be the modes of transit you like and everyone can get used to it. You need alternatives to driving for people who don't want to cycle or can't in summer or at all due to fitness levels
So E-scooter bad, two e-scooters held together with a lawn chair good.
Just goes to show how badly dockless scooter companies have poisoned the well. Other cities had to deal with dockless scooter companies taking over public spaces as part of their business plan, so therefore people in Toronto are scofflaws if they want to buy a personal scooter. Meanwhile a larger vehicle subject to the same speed restrictions as an electric scooter is approved for use on the streets.
LSVs: Full G license, $1M in insurance, safety standards for vehicles regulated by Transport Canada, work on existing roads
E-scooters: no license, no insurance, no standards, and our roads aren't built for tiny wheels.
Urgh.
I'm a new scooter commuter and let me tell you, it's awesome. I'm an avid cyclist but my 10km commute is too long for me to ride without breaking a nice sweat no matter how slow I go. Not having a shower at work I needed an alternative and gave a scooter a go (Segway Ninebot Max; the Toyota Camry of scooters). Reasonably affordable for a used one. Easy to store in my home and office to prevent theft. Zero emissions. Can safely ride on bike paths (yes, I know that's technically against these non-inforced bylaws but stick with me here).
The most important part; travel time:
* TTC: \~1hr
* TTC with drop-off or pick-up at subway station: \~45min
* Bike: \~35-40min
* Scooter: \~35min
* Car: \~30min
So a scooter costs me about 5min vs. a car in rush hour. A heck of a competitive offering! Why would we want to ban these in a city that is crippled by traffic, has underfunded transit and has aggressive climate goals is beyond me.
I think I'll be writing my councillor.
Combined with transit, scooters are amazing. You can hop on the go train, go downtown and tour the waterfront, then hop back on the train and head back to the suburbs without ever creating traffic and congestion.
Its just so Lime and other dockless scooters don't show up. They will never enforce it on someone just scootering around. Still a good ideal to write your councilor though.
Yeh I should find and read the actual resolution. Anyone got a link?
That said, if they want to prevent the shared scooters from coming, couldn't they simply ban that specific thing?
I think they like Bike Share having the monopoly on that sort of thing. I think so many cities have had issues with shared scooters that the city is just going to focus on Bike Share and expanding its network. It would be cool if they added scooters to the fleet, but I don't see that happening.
The Bike Share e-bikes are great as well. I'd probably ride one if I could guarantee that 1) there would be one available every time I need to go to the office and 2) that there would be a dock space near my office available every time I need one. Not being able to guarantee both of those, it means I can't use it. Can't risk being late and can't plan my whole day around the possibility of having to have a non-bike and needing to spend an extra 10-15min to find a dock and walk to the office.
This is [the motion.](https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2024.IE13.1)
If you're interested in learning more about City Hall, Matt Elliot (the journalist in the tweet) is the best writer on the subject right now (in my opinion). He has a substack, and every 10th newsletter is free.
That's already the plan! Apollo Go seems like the right upgrade but waiting for used ones to show up in the market. Sub 30 min is effectively the same time as a car. Can't ask for more and a gas scooter/motorcycle doesn't make the most sense for me at the moment.
People hate on them, but escooters and similar affordable electric means of getting around the city are the future of urban transit. No infrastructure required, affordable, no requirements for license or insurance. Forget electric cars, they are a fad for the rich, scooters and small electrics are the future.
I fucking hate this city at times.
"A zero emission, zero noise pollution transit option that could reduce congestion and get cars off the road? That exists in nearly every major city in the world? That is used widely in our own city, already? BAN IT!!!"
>In addition to meeting the requirements under the pilot program, low-speed vehicles must have insurance and be registered through ServiceOntario.
So I guess these won't replace the DUI-scooters you see outside the bars
City of Toronto has an identity crisis and doesn't know what they want. One hand they don't want people driving cars on city roads, then on the other hand they ban popular escooters where other municipalities have allowed them without issue.
Having recently visited Barcelona, I can tell you, in Spain eScooters are the primary vehicle people use to get back and forth to work. They are everywhere. People bring them into their offices to charge during the workday and then use them to commute back home. It's very environmentally friendly and effective. They are lighter than most bikes these days so that safety complaint is meaningless.
I'm far more concerned about the road warrior cyclists who slow down traffic, force cars into oncoming lanes, and ignore stop signs. If bikes aren't dangerous, neither are eScooters.
Not to mention the City permits e-bikes. In fact, Bike Share has them.
So my question is, why does the City and City Staff think e-scooters are “too dangerous” while e-bikes are just fine? They’re basically the same *damn* thing.
I will never understand the thought patterns of a city councillor.
eBikes are heavier as well with more potential for injury. If we are truly worried about preventing pedestrian injury, the first ban should be dump trucks, then cars.
eScooters are very accessible and many people who can't even afford to take transit can get a decently priced eScooter and have mobility and the ability to commute.
Maintaining the speed limit is not a requirement for using the road.
If you accept the *privilege* of driving a car, then you need to accept the rules that come with it.
So that is why we have gridlock. Traffic isn't flowing as efficient as it could impacting commute times, pollution, and delivery of goods and services. Because some guy in leotards wants to ride his bike to work on a major arterial roadway during rush hour.
Sidewalks are for people. Crosswalks are so people can cross the road from sidewalk to sidewalk. Roads are for motorized vehicles to ensure efficient movement of people and goods.
Wrong. People have used varying modes of transport on roads for thousands of years. They are not, and never have been, intended to be used exclusively by cars.
>pollution
lol *cyclists* are responsible for motorists making pollution *worse*!? Okay.
>some guy in leotards
Methinks it's more than just *the bike* you have a problem with.
Nobody is delivering commercial goods on bikes. So yes, that truck that is sitting in traffic burning fuel and causing more pollution if the flow of traffic is disrupted by bikers.
And your right, I have no issue with bikes. I have one myself. I guess my issue is with the entitled bike riders.
> Nobody is delivering commercial goods on bikes.
Food delivery drivers in the city have literally been entirely replaced by cyclists. Because [spoiler alert] bikes move *faster* in the city than cars.
I bet that that's what you're really butthurt about. You get pissed off seeing cyclists whiz past you on city roads when you're gridlocked.
Highway Traffic Act,R.S.O. 1990, c.132 (1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the act which stipulates that vehicles must "maintain the 'speed limit'".
I know that you car-brains want really bad for the posted speed limits to be the *minimum*, but sorry, it's the maximum.
It's the part where you should not "slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic".
Bikes may not do that on a 40 zone residential street.
They do that on a 60,70,80 zone throughfare. Slowing traffic by 75% in a 70 zone is impeding the movement of traffic.
The question is, did City Hall consult with TPS about enforcing this ban? Has City Hall banned the companies that sell them? (Flush) There goes our taxpayer's money, circling down the drain. Stop wasting time and money pushing new laws that won't be enforced.
I was being sarcastic, lol, and I take it you're an e-scooter rider. I'm aware that the TPS are struggling with the fundamentals of policing and that we're on the edge of total anarchy, but hey, let's uphold an existing ineffective ban on e-scooters that is completely ignored on the street. I mean, who really cares. Look at how well the ban on cell phones while driving is working out. It's a farce.
We should be encouraging people to get around the city without a car. You know what method of transport causes the most damage, injuries, and deaths on our streets, right? By that logic, the "ban" should start there.
E-bikes legally can't go any faster than a regular bike. They are capped at 32 km an hour.
What other regulation do you want? No company sells e-bikes that are able to exceed this limit.
E-bikes are usually pedal assist.
As I just said, they are not legally allowed to exceed the speed that a regular bike could go at, they just require less cardio.
If a bike is jailbraked to go faster than that that is already illegal.
What other regulation do you want?
There are things far more dangerous to pedestrians -- including BIKERS -- to worry about. Are pedal bikers insured when they smoke someone crossing the street?
Not everyone is in the right physical condition to bike - especially long distances. eScooters create a new mobility option for people to use instead of taking the car.
I would be happy if they just enforced a ban on them on sidewalks and in crosswalks. I think of all the retirees in our condo building downtown, some well into their 90s , who enjoy a high quality of life walking everywhere in our neighborhood. And I think about how all the good aspects of that active lifestyle could be negated in an instant if they are bumped into by an idiot zipping in and out on one of these things. I've had a number of close calls and I'm a pretty nimble walker. A collision doesn't need to be fatal to ruin your life, especially when you're older. Sidewalks are the last refuge we have and they are being treated as overflow roadways now by these grey-area vehicles like scooters, e-bikes, etc.
On the other hands, if the operators of these scooters feel brave and confident enough to go up against SUVs and delivery trucks in the traffic lanes, more power to them. But they are the ones accepting the risk and should not be passing it on to others who did not make that decision.
I’m down for them to be on city streets so long as they have to get a motorcycle or LSM license and insurance just like everyone else. If not you should be in the bike lane
funny thing is, we might think that e-scooters helps diversify our modes of transportation but the City did a study that showed people would chose to ride escooters instead of bikes and does not decrease the level of car use
Pretty sure everybody here doesn’t understand why they legally did this. It’s strictly to prevent lime and all the other copycats from invading the city streets with scooters.
You are free to use your own personal scooter. But good luck if you hit anything. Uninsured vehicle that’s banned on the streets will be a big price tag.
Except you're not free to use them, they're banned. That ban isn't enforced, but making something legal by banning but not enforcing it is incredibly dumb because 1) a cop in a bad mood is going to make that very much not 'free to use' and 2) it completely undermines the respect people have of bylaws in general
The way to ban escooter rentals is...ban escooter rentals. It's not hard. They won't enter a city where the ban is, because unlike Uber or airBNB, they'd be putting their own personal property at risk. A single cop strolling around picking up their scooters would cost them 5 figures a day. They aren't coming if they're banned.
Banning personal escooters to stop rentals coming in is like banning cars in the city because you don't want Hertz coming in
Loopholes. What you are doing is creating loop holes.
A straight ban covers loopholes.
It’s also how segways are banned on city streets.
Loop hole is that it’s allowed on private property.
This makes no sense. It's like saying tobacco smoking is a loophole to crack smoking, so ban tobacco smoking but do a giant wink so everyone knows the ban isn't real. Or public Tim Hortons drinking is a loophole for people who put their beer in coffee cups and drink publicly, so ban Tim Hortons, but do it while crossing your fingers. Wtf? Just don't ban it. Ban the thing you don't want.
No, and I cannot emphasize this enough, no rental company is going to go into a city they're actively banned in, put six figures of inventory over the city and just write it off as cops confiscate their property. That would be insane. That isn't a profitable business model for anyone. The Boogeyman isn't coming. And if they were, why would they not come now, when it's equally as illegal as it would be in that situation? If anything it's easier to c ome in now, because they know the bylaw isn't enforced, which makes you lose respect for it. A ban on specific escooter rentals might actually sound scarier than a bylaw everyone knows just doesn't mean anything.
When scooters are outlawed, then only outlaws will scoot
That would make for a good propaganda poster lmao
Don't Tread on Wheeeeeee!
Classic Toronto, ban and don’t enforce.
really they can ban whatever they want it doesn't stop people from using them
Well yeah, they can also ban things that people use instead of trying to find a common middle ground. It’s clear personalized e-transport is gaining popularity
Why Best Buy still sells them? they are even on discount!!
They're not actually *illegal* just *illegal to use on city streets/paths/...*. There was a question from one of the councillors today about whether police could confiscate them when giving a ticket and the answer was "no" because of that.
So this is similar to smoking, it's illegal to smoke almost anywhere, still you see people smoking while walking, it's rarely enforced, and they sell cigarettes everywhere.
I can't say I know where it is or isn't illegal to smoke, but ya, probably.
just in case you want to visit a fun city and use it
More info on low speed vehicles https://www.ontario.ca/page/low-speed-vehicle-pilot-program Here's a road test of a Wink one in NYC https://youtu.be/xQdnYUTw5qE?si=bR1kroBoMg_WZJaJ
Very cool. They also need to start restricting gigantic personal vehicles in the downtown core. Require a specific permit and make it prohibitively expensive for individuals who wish to drive their massive pavement princess, bro-dozer pickups and SUVs downtown.
Lemme be honest. At this rate, Toronto will be the last major city in North America to have a fully pedestrianized neighborhood. Despite having the [highest population density in NA](https://i1.wp.com/fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/FCPP-1.png). Even Montreal has it. Colorado too (summer). New York. San Fransisco. Washington.
How is this chart calculated? Is it population density for metro area? (NYC city has a 3x higher population density than Toronto city)
Better yet, ban all cars except for the new electric [peel trident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Trident)
I thought the P50 was pretty awesome.. that one's fantastic!! 🤣
Peel is my favourite car manufacturer
That thing is friggin adorable. Would definitely buy. And I'll happily take the derisive looks and snarky comments over a cybertruck any day.
28,681£ msrp for the most high end version going up to 88km/h
The horses have long since left the stable when it comes to this issue. Councillors burying their heads in the sand will not put the genie back in the bottle. A better idea would be to legalize the use of personally owned escooters while continuing to keep escooter rental companies out of the city. One of the biggest objections to legalizing escooters in the City is about rental scooters being discarded on public sidewalks, creating obstacles and hazards for pedestrians. This would be a non-issue if only personally owned scooters were legal. Other issues commonly cited as reasons to keep the status quo in place have to do with issues like sidewalk riding. But that's an issue with legal forms of micromobility (eg. traditional bikes, ebikes, etc.) too, and the best way to address that issue is by continuing to improve our separated bike infrastructure citywide.
The discarding of rental scooters could probably be solved the same way that car share services work - if you are parked somewhere not permitted, you can't end the rental. Have little parking areas for the scooters like bike share stations.
GPS isn't really accurate enough for "good" or "bad" placement unless you've got docks or enclosures to enforce it. And frankly I'd rather install more bike share docks if we have sidewalk space, rather than a parallel system with different vehicles.
The thing is, scooters are more accessible for some people than bikes so it's nice to have the choice. It's a lot easier to ride a scooter as well as dismount a scooter and walk it on a sidewalk if you're feeling unsafe in heavy traffic, etc than it is a bike. And I swear I'm not just saying that because I'm too short to ride the bike share bikes with the seat at the lowest height (though that's also true 🥲)
Lime is a scooter rental company. They operate in lots of cities, including Dubai where the government is involved in almost everything. The scooters in Dubai are GPS fenced and it is highly accurate - within 1m I'd say. In Dubai, they have zones for reduced speeds, zones where parking is disallowed, zones that disable the motor, and so on. Lime is a private company that interfaces with all of that. The technology already exists; I have personal experience using it. GPS fencing for scooters could work in Toronto.
One other risk identified by staff are that many of our roads are in such poor condition that something with a small wheel like a scooter is dangerous to operate. A bike at least can handle pot holes more easily.
"We are either unable or unwilling keep our roads safe for all forms of transportation. Instead of actually doing something about that, we're just going to keep escooters illegal because our negligence means they might not be safe to operate." - the City of Toronto, apparently.
If I had to pick, I'd say unable. But [it's a problem across the country](https://www.tvo.org/article/we-arent-taking-care-of-our-infrastructure-and-its-not-just-a-toronto-problem) it's just more visible municipally.
I'm visiting another city right now with Lime rental scooters, very popular and useful things.
Roads are fine for anything with bigger wheels including wheelchairs and mobility scooters. E-scooters simply aren't practical enough to increase an entire city's road maintenance budget.
Agree 100 percent.
At least in Toronto, the biggest objection is definitely not with rentals being left out. There are major concerns about the potential safety risks they pose, especially with seniors and those with disabilities. I suggest you look into AODA Alliance’s posts about e-scooters if you want to hear their points against. Secondary to that is enforcement, insurance concerns, and of course, rentals being left out. Here is a report from 2021 if you wanted more reading https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/ie/bgrd/backgroundfile-165818.pdf You think the solution is simple because you completely ignored the concerns that are difficult to address.
Those safety risks also apply to other forms of micromobility that are perfectly legal, but they only get brought up when we're talking about escooters. As I said in my original comment, the best solution to these issues is continuing to improve our physically separated bike infrastructure so that there's less motivation/incentive to ride bikes/escooters/etc. on the sidewalk. Also, the biggest risk to pedestrians, including disabled people and seniors has always been - and remains - cars. In fact, pedestrians with disabilities [are at a significantly higher risk of being injured and killed by drivers](https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1353829222001575). And yet, nobody claiming to care about accessibility in these kinds of conversations ever brings that up.
It is disingenuous to mention car injuries when discussing the safety of e-scooters. There is a low chance of a car operating on the sidewalk, but the same can not be said about e-scooters. Some preliminary research suggests scooters are more dangerous than other micro options. Some research suggests the opposite. It is an open question. I would absolutely love to see enhanced bike infrastructure. That way there could be less cars on the road and a way to implement e-scooters safely. That being said, if the increased risk e-scooters impose on at-risk groups is true, prematurely implementing them without the infrastructure may be devastating.
If e-scooters are on the sidewalk, it's because they aren't allowed on the bike lanes (which they should be), or because the roads are so dangerous that they will use the sidewalk instead. This problem can be easily solved by having bike lanes be more than just bike lanes because a lot of other means of micromobility can keep up with bikes, such as scooters (mobility or razor-style) e-boards, rollerblades and maybe even golf carts. Bike lanes should be treated like the road. Fast, one way directional traffic from point A to point B along a network and allow a wide variety of "vehicles" as long as they have the capacity to maintain enough speed during the commute.
There are already several lobbying groups involved in the discussion. Bringing changes to bike lanes as the solution will make this even more heated as more groups try to get their voices heard. [https://www.cycleto.ca/active\_and\_e\_mobility](https://www.cycleto.ca/active_and_e_mobility)
>This problem can be easily solved by having bike lanes be more than just bike lanes Dedicated bike lanes are already full of things not allowed to be in bike lanes including pedestrians, e-scooters, regular scooters, rollerbladers, e-bikes, ICE motorcycles, one-wheels, and hoverboards. Nobody that is riding anything on the sidewalk is doing it because they think that it's not allowed in the bike lane.
>here is a low chance of a car operating on the sidewalk, but the same can not be said about e-scooters. This has not been helped by banning them from the roads and bike paths.
NIMBYs always find a minor issue, and escooter safety is definitely minor, as an excuse to hold up progress.
Are you suggesting Toronto's general manager for transportation services is a NIMBY?
I'm suggesting that people who make a big deal about the safety threat posed by e-scooters are being disingenuous. It simply isn't a significant factor, but it sure sounds good. Especially when you mention vulnerable people when you bring it up.
The individual in the position has spent their entire career supporting micro-mobility options. I am having trouble understanding why they would be disingenuous about the threats imposed by e-scooters.
Because an e-scooter is no more dangerous than a bike, especially an e-bike and far, far less dangerous than a car.
Ah, yes. They must be a disingenuous NIMBY because they do not support my preconceived beliefs.
soon Toronto's master plan of making it impossible to use a vehicle to travel will be complete! \* Evil Laugh \*
Honestly with the shit bike lane network, constant construction causing next level congestion, and a deteriorating TTC, it *really* feels like the City of Toronto is trying to prevent *anyone* from getting places.
>soon Toronto's master plan of making it impossible to use a vehicle to travel will be complete! Sounds perfect for the downtown core. Personal vehicles shouldn't be permitted on most streets.
My read of their comment is that they meant a vehicle of any kind (bike, bus, SUV, you name it)
Personally I'm fine with bikes but e-scooters are too quick and too frequently used on sidewalks. As a pedestrian they're more dangerous than cyclists but nowhere near as bad as cars, obviously.
If you want rid of cars to the extent that you want them banned on most streets, you need as many alternatives as possible. It can't just be the modes of transit you like and everyone can get used to it. You need alternatives to driving for people who don't want to cycle or can't in summer or at all due to fitness levels
So E-scooter bad, two e-scooters held together with a lawn chair good. Just goes to show how badly dockless scooter companies have poisoned the well. Other cities had to deal with dockless scooter companies taking over public spaces as part of their business plan, so therefore people in Toronto are scofflaws if they want to buy a personal scooter. Meanwhile a larger vehicle subject to the same speed restrictions as an electric scooter is approved for use on the streets.
LSVs: Full G license, $1M in insurance, safety standards for vehicles regulated by Transport Canada, work on existing roads E-scooters: no license, no insurance, no standards, and our roads aren't built for tiny wheels.
Idiots. Blanket ban because they’re “dangerous”, but they’re so low on the list of actual safety concerns that bylaw and police don’t even enforce it.
If this is the reason, they should be banning massive SUVs from city roads as well.
Lmao why the fuck would you ban a cheap, green, accessible mode of transportation?
Four wheels = good. Two wheels = bad.
This stumps me everytime. I still go out on my scooter and electric unicycle. No cares here. I got money and time to save.
Urgh. I'm a new scooter commuter and let me tell you, it's awesome. I'm an avid cyclist but my 10km commute is too long for me to ride without breaking a nice sweat no matter how slow I go. Not having a shower at work I needed an alternative and gave a scooter a go (Segway Ninebot Max; the Toyota Camry of scooters). Reasonably affordable for a used one. Easy to store in my home and office to prevent theft. Zero emissions. Can safely ride on bike paths (yes, I know that's technically against these non-inforced bylaws but stick with me here). The most important part; travel time: * TTC: \~1hr * TTC with drop-off or pick-up at subway station: \~45min * Bike: \~35-40min * Scooter: \~35min * Car: \~30min So a scooter costs me about 5min vs. a car in rush hour. A heck of a competitive offering! Why would we want to ban these in a city that is crippled by traffic, has underfunded transit and has aggressive climate goals is beyond me. I think I'll be writing my councillor.
Combined with transit, scooters are amazing. You can hop on the go train, go downtown and tour the waterfront, then hop back on the train and head back to the suburbs without ever creating traffic and congestion.
Its just so Lime and other dockless scooters don't show up. They will never enforce it on someone just scootering around. Still a good ideal to write your councilor though.
Yeh I should find and read the actual resolution. Anyone got a link? That said, if they want to prevent the shared scooters from coming, couldn't they simply ban that specific thing?
I think they like Bike Share having the monopoly on that sort of thing. I think so many cities have had issues with shared scooters that the city is just going to focus on Bike Share and expanding its network. It would be cool if they added scooters to the fleet, but I don't see that happening.
The Bike Share e-bikes are great as well. I'd probably ride one if I could guarantee that 1) there would be one available every time I need to go to the office and 2) that there would be a dock space near my office available every time I need one. Not being able to guarantee both of those, it means I can't use it. Can't risk being late and can't plan my whole day around the possibility of having to have a non-bike and needing to spend an extra 10-15min to find a dock and walk to the office.
This is [the motion.](https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2024.IE13.1) If you're interested in learning more about City Hall, Matt Elliot (the journalist in the tweet) is the best writer on the subject right now (in my opinion). He has a substack, and every 10th newsletter is free.
That commute would be cut to 25mins if you got a slightly faster scooter with a suspension!!!
That's already the plan! Apollo Go seems like the right upgrade but waiting for used ones to show up in the market. Sub 30 min is effectively the same time as a car. Can't ask for more and a gas scooter/motorcycle doesn't make the most sense for me at the moment.
List of cities in N. America that have banned e-scooters: 1. Toronto Backward-ass city.
What a stupid ban
People hate on them, but escooters and similar affordable electric means of getting around the city are the future of urban transit. No infrastructure required, affordable, no requirements for license or insurance. Forget electric cars, they are a fad for the rich, scooters and small electrics are the future.
Correct. I zip around everywhere on my escooter and electric unicycle (EUC)
they should double ban it..
I fucking hate this city at times. "A zero emission, zero noise pollution transit option that could reduce congestion and get cars off the road? That exists in nearly every major city in the world? That is used widely in our own city, already? BAN IT!!!"
Bring back the ZENN car.
Coming soon! Tiny electric cars on the sidewalk!
Could Toronto City Council get off their ass and actually do something *useful* for once?
>In addition to meeting the requirements under the pilot program, low-speed vehicles must have insurance and be registered through ServiceOntario. So I guess these won't replace the DUI-scooters you see outside the bars
So that’s why there was a guy on an a-scooter in front of my car on Keele yesterday? He had a helmet at least.
City of Toronto has an identity crisis and doesn't know what they want. One hand they don't want people driving cars on city roads, then on the other hand they ban popular escooters where other municipalities have allowed them without issue. Having recently visited Barcelona, I can tell you, in Spain eScooters are the primary vehicle people use to get back and forth to work. They are everywhere. People bring them into their offices to charge during the workday and then use them to commute back home. It's very environmentally friendly and effective. They are lighter than most bikes these days so that safety complaint is meaningless. I'm far more concerned about the road warrior cyclists who slow down traffic, force cars into oncoming lanes, and ignore stop signs. If bikes aren't dangerous, neither are eScooters.
Not to mention the City permits e-bikes. In fact, Bike Share has them. So my question is, why does the City and City Staff think e-scooters are “too dangerous” while e-bikes are just fine? They’re basically the same *damn* thing. I will never understand the thought patterns of a city councillor.
eBikes are heavier as well with more potential for injury. If we are truly worried about preventing pedestrian injury, the first ban should be dump trucks, then cars. eScooters are very accessible and many people who can't even afford to take transit can get a decently priced eScooter and have mobility and the ability to commute.
Bikes don't force cars into oncoming lanes. That's just drivers being impatient.
If bikes can't maintain the speed limit, they shouldn't be on the roads with cars otherwise they just disrupt the flow of traffic.
Maintaining the speed limit is not a requirement for using the road. If you accept the *privilege* of driving a car, then you need to accept the rules that come with it.
So that is why we have gridlock. Traffic isn't flowing as efficient as it could impacting commute times, pollution, and delivery of goods and services. Because some guy in leotards wants to ride his bike to work on a major arterial roadway during rush hour.
It definitely couldn't be because we have too many cars on the road. It must be the cyclist who is, somehow, going slower than gridlocked traffic.
This is why I feel the city needs to invest in a proper bike lane infrastructure. Bikes don't belong on roads with cars.
Roads are for people, not just cars.
Sidewalks are for people. Crosswalks are so people can cross the road from sidewalk to sidewalk. Roads are for motorized vehicles to ensure efficient movement of people and goods.
Wrong. People have used varying modes of transport on roads for thousands of years. They are not, and never have been, intended to be used exclusively by cars.
>pollution lol *cyclists* are responsible for motorists making pollution *worse*!? Okay. >some guy in leotards Methinks it's more than just *the bike* you have a problem with.
Nobody is delivering commercial goods on bikes. So yes, that truck that is sitting in traffic burning fuel and causing more pollution if the flow of traffic is disrupted by bikers. And your right, I have no issue with bikes. I have one myself. I guess my issue is with the entitled bike riders.
> Nobody is delivering commercial goods on bikes. Food delivery drivers in the city have literally been entirely replaced by cyclists. Because [spoiler alert] bikes move *faster* in the city than cars. I bet that that's what you're really butthurt about. You get pissed off seeing cyclists whiz past you on city roads when you're gridlocked.
So someone is carrying skids of food to the Loblaws store on a bike? Get out of here.
> maintain the speed limit lol what? I didn't realize the speed limit was a *minimum*!?
Highway Traffic Act,R.S.O. 1990, c.132 (1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the act which stipulates that vehicles must "maintain the 'speed limit'". I know that you car-brains want really bad for the posted speed limits to be the *minimum*, but sorry, it's the maximum.
It's the part where you should not "slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic". Bikes may not do that on a 40 zone residential street. They do that on a 60,70,80 zone throughfare. Slowing traffic by 75% in a 70 zone is impeding the movement of traffic.
The question is, did City Hall consult with TPS about enforcing this ban? Has City Hall banned the companies that sell them? (Flush) There goes our taxpayer's money, circling down the drain. Stop wasting time and money pushing new laws that won't be enforced.
The TPS can't manage the shootings, drug dealers, and mentally ill who torment average citizens on a daily basis, let alone fine people on eScooters.
I was being sarcastic, lol, and I take it you're an e-scooter rider. I'm aware that the TPS are struggling with the fundamentals of policing and that we're on the edge of total anarchy, but hey, let's uphold an existing ineffective ban on e-scooters that is completely ignored on the street. I mean, who really cares. Look at how well the ban on cell phones while driving is working out. It's a farce.
I don't live in Toronto, so I'm just providing my two cents as someone who works there time to time. I live in a municipality without a ban.
Are they just trying to make e-scooter people appear more bad ass?
What is it with this passion for throwing everything in to the road. The roads throughout the gta are dangerous.
Stupidity and timidity triumphs
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We should be encouraging people to get around the city without a car. You know what method of transport causes the most damage, injuries, and deaths on our streets, right? By that logic, the "ban" should start there.
Spot on.
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E-bikes legally can't go any faster than a regular bike. They are capped at 32 km an hour. What other regulation do you want? No company sells e-bikes that are able to exceed this limit.
Ok enjoy your traffic I guess.
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E-bikes are usually pedal assist. As I just said, they are not legally allowed to exceed the speed that a regular bike could go at, they just require less cardio. If a bike is jailbraked to go faster than that that is already illegal. What other regulation do you want?
There are things far more dangerous to pedestrians -- including BIKERS -- to worry about. Are pedal bikers insured when they smoke someone crossing the street?
Not everyone is in the right physical condition to bike - especially long distances. eScooters create a new mobility option for people to use instead of taking the car.
I would be happy if they just enforced a ban on them on sidewalks and in crosswalks. I think of all the retirees in our condo building downtown, some well into their 90s , who enjoy a high quality of life walking everywhere in our neighborhood. And I think about how all the good aspects of that active lifestyle could be negated in an instant if they are bumped into by an idiot zipping in and out on one of these things. I've had a number of close calls and I'm a pretty nimble walker. A collision doesn't need to be fatal to ruin your life, especially when you're older. Sidewalks are the last refuge we have and they are being treated as overflow roadways now by these grey-area vehicles like scooters, e-bikes, etc. On the other hands, if the operators of these scooters feel brave and confident enough to go up against SUVs and delivery trucks in the traffic lanes, more power to them. But they are the ones accepting the risk and should not be passing it on to others who did not make that decision.
I’m down for them to be on city streets so long as they have to get a motorcycle or LSM license and insurance just like everyone else. If not you should be in the bike lane
funny thing is, we might think that e-scooters helps diversify our modes of transportation but the City did a study that showed people would chose to ride escooters instead of bikes and does not decrease the level of car use
Ban them. They will be a scourge on this city. Bike, walk or take transit.
You sound fun.....
Pretty sure everybody here doesn’t understand why they legally did this. It’s strictly to prevent lime and all the other copycats from invading the city streets with scooters. You are free to use your own personal scooter. But good luck if you hit anything. Uninsured vehicle that’s banned on the streets will be a big price tag.
Except you're not free to use them, they're banned. That ban isn't enforced, but making something legal by banning but not enforcing it is incredibly dumb because 1) a cop in a bad mood is going to make that very much not 'free to use' and 2) it completely undermines the respect people have of bylaws in general The way to ban escooter rentals is...ban escooter rentals. It's not hard. They won't enter a city where the ban is, because unlike Uber or airBNB, they'd be putting their own personal property at risk. A single cop strolling around picking up their scooters would cost them 5 figures a day. They aren't coming if they're banned. Banning personal escooters to stop rentals coming in is like banning cars in the city because you don't want Hertz coming in
Loopholes. What you are doing is creating loop holes. A straight ban covers loopholes. It’s also how segways are banned on city streets. Loop hole is that it’s allowed on private property.
This makes no sense. It's like saying tobacco smoking is a loophole to crack smoking, so ban tobacco smoking but do a giant wink so everyone knows the ban isn't real. Or public Tim Hortons drinking is a loophole for people who put their beer in coffee cups and drink publicly, so ban Tim Hortons, but do it while crossing your fingers. Wtf? Just don't ban it. Ban the thing you don't want. No, and I cannot emphasize this enough, no rental company is going to go into a city they're actively banned in, put six figures of inventory over the city and just write it off as cops confiscate their property. That would be insane. That isn't a profitable business model for anyone. The Boogeyman isn't coming. And if they were, why would they not come now, when it's equally as illegal as it would be in that situation? If anything it's easier to c ome in now, because they know the bylaw isn't enforced, which makes you lose respect for it. A ban on specific escooter rentals might actually sound scarier than a bylaw everyone knows just doesn't mean anything.