> The two separate freedom of information requests were rejected by Metrolinx in their entirety.
>
> The first request was for the latest list of ongoing testing and operating issues. The second sought monthly status reports the consortium building the line, Crosslinx Transit Solutions, sends to Metrolinx.
>
> Metrolinx, however, denied both requests and claimed releasing them would impact information of third-party companies, the economic interests of the province, personal information and the security of buildings, vehicles or systems.
>
> **"We’ve been transparent with the public,”** Transportation Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria insisted to Global News.
Shout-out to Isaac Callan and Colin D'Mello for composing and structuring this article in this exact order to show the utter irony of that quote. 😂
Metrolinx has won in court on this kind of denial. Not sure if it’s the same request as the journos, but sounds familiar.
E.g. : https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onipc/doc/2024/2024canlii32522/2024canlii32522.html
Le judge:
> Considering the circumstances of the appeal and the parties’ representations, **I am satisfied that Metrolinx properly exercised its discretion under section 18(1)(c) to withhold the records at issue. I find that Metrolinx considered relevant factors and the purpose of the section 18(1) exemption, and did not take irrelevant considerations into account**. While I understand that it is the appellant’s position that a more transparent claims process would be beneficial to Metrolinx and the public, it is clear that Metrolinx considered the nature of the claims process and the consequences of disclosing the records when exercising its discretion.
If the reason for hiding the information is that it would damage both the province and the companies involved you don’t even need to release the report, you’ve said enough. What a clown show
It’s amazing these people can keep a straight face - “We’ve been transparent with the public,” Transportation Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria insisted to Global News.
Clearly something in the engineering/construction went horribly awry, and I don’t think they actually know how to fix it. It’s the only way you can explain the fact that the line has allegedly been 97% complete since at least 2022 and yet there’s no opening date in sight.
I’ve heard there’s a sink hole problem at Yonge/Eglinton. I’ve also heard that something went wrong with the tracks(?). I’ve also also heard that some equipment is stuck down there and they can’t figure out how to get it out. Maybe none of that is true. Maybe all of it is true.
Whatever it is, it must be horribly embarrassing and/or damaging for them to be covering it up with such radio silence.
I heard sink hole too, at Mt Pleasant and Eg though, with the added commentary it’s “unsolvable”, and related to not properly assessing underground water / rivers.
Total rumour mill admittedly , but my source did seem to have their source that would be able to substantiate this.
Mt Pleasant/Eg makes sense, if you look at one of those “lost rivers” maps there’s one that pretty much runs right under the heart of the intersection. I’m no construction or engineering expert but underground rivers seem like something you should definitely “measure twice, cut once” about when you’re planning a project.
Don't know enough about the Crosstown project but wouldn't surprise me if it's a massive boondoggle. Anecdotally, I know a bunch of guys (and gals) who work for Metrolinx (GO Transit). The amount of whining and complaining I hear from all of them about the organization, specifically upper management, the work, and the jobs they do, gives me the impression there is a lot of dissension and disunity within Metrolinx. Some tow the company line as they are young and intend to move up the ranks, but others are closer to retirement age and don't hold back. I'm sure a lot of important details and tasks get missed or consistently pushed back due to the ongoing office politics and fractioning.
People who work at Metrolinx love to hate on it, but also they themselves are usually not the most outstanding characters. Metrolinx hires a lot of inexperienced people to manage work because a lot of experienced people don't want to touch the organization and its politics with a 10 ft pole. This leads to high turnover and ongoing issues with work.
> People who work at Metrolinx love to hate on it, but also they themselves are usually not the most outstanding characters.
I will pass that observation along to my Metrolinx contacts lol
I lived within a few blocks of Mount Pleasant and Eglinton for more than a decade. I can add the strip mall to the southwest is built on basically a swamp. I knew a business owner there, and one day I was joking to him, "They're going to kick you out and put up condos any day now because of that LRT stop half-a-block up the road."
To which he replied, "They can't. They couldn't even put a three-storey structure on this whole plot of land because of how much water is under us. The only engineering solution would be to use caissons under the foundations the way they do in downtown Chicago. It would be ridiculously expensive compared to any other Toronto building project that can have solid foundations. This strip mall will still be here in a hundred years!"
When he said it at the time, I remember thinking, "Wow. How crazy is it that the old swamp stopped right here, and meanwhile they're able to tunnel just a few hundred meters north of where I'm sitting?"
Now it's a decade later, and what are the chances that sinkhole has something to do with a paved over swamp that the owner of the strip mall knew about and disclosed to his tenants but somehow no one at Metrolinx ever heard about it?
The one just south of Eglinton Junior Public School?
They're trying to build a condo there,
https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/750-mt-pleasant.45664
Also right behind it on Brownlow,
https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/61-brownlow.46065
That's the one! They must have figured out something to do with the ground water? (Perhaps the water level dropped when a certain government organization drilled a 7-km-long tunnel nearby, draining a swamp..?)
So I lived there for 5 years during LRT construction and I can tell you there was large dewatering apparatus running 24/7/365 for those 5 years. Could hear it on the 12th floor of my building.
I think groundwater is less of an issue for a condo because they can anchor the whole thing deeply through pilings as deep as they need to (bedrock) and the whole building sits on that?
Building big deep foundations next to a body of water where the water table is a few meters deep is already a thing.
With a concrete tube, if you drain the water, you get subsidence and part of your tube collapses or rails become untrue. And good luck placing deep pilings in a tunnel.
Not an engineer.
I have heard similar from someone who knows someone working on this project for Metrolinx. The person said it was 'in the area' of Yonge and Eg. They've tried a couple fixes and failed and now all the contractors and Metrolinx are pointing fingers at each other because nobody wants to be on the hook for the costs.
I feel like we are going to end up with an LRT east and LRt west that don't actually connect, until they fix this fiasco in another 10-15 yrs.
That was one of the reasons the underground sections made little sense. But the conservatives knew better apparently. Not all issues are solvable unless you throw infinite money and resources at the problem and create a new class of engineering solution.
Even when David Miller first announced the line as part of Transit City back in the day, the line was always going to be underground between Keele and Laird (the way it has been constructed now). Rob Ford wanted to put the whole thing underground but in one of City Council’s first acts of defiance against him, TTC Chair Karen Stintz called for a special meeting of council to override his decision in 2012.
When Doug Ford became premier there was some fuckery with putting the westward extension underground but that’s not really a major contributing factor to the main line delays - the line was engineered to open without the West extension. The LRT had already been under construction for some years before the West extension was even approved.
The mayor of Toronto has no power over Metrolinx or the provincial transit plans. If they did something at Rob Ford's request it's their fault for listening to him instead of an expert.
Throw enough concrete/ reinforcement at it and the problem would be solved.
Unless the hole ended up going to Russia or China I don't know how it could be deemed unsolvable.
Did they find a lost civilization or the lizard people? I was kinda hoping for something exciting in 2024.
Is this a reference to the comic short story [Signal Problems](http://www.namisato.org/portfolio/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CSignal%2520Problems%E2%80%9D%2520is%2520a%2520comic,Comics%2520Anthology's%2520Yonge%2520at%2520Heart)?
If that’s the problem, it’s probably fixable. It’s probably also expensive and they’re still at the pointing Spider-Man meme stage of all of this trying to decide who covers the cost.
Being stuck in legal limbo does seem to make more sense than engineering limbo. Lawsuits can take ridiculously long, especially if it’s this messy and with so many different business entities involved.
I’ve been watching YouTube videos on Torontos lost river system and I buy sinkhole and fucking up reading the water table that I’ve seen floated here before. Whatever happened is obviously such a colossal fuck up they don’t want it known, but it’s fairly obvious there may not be a fix at all since it’s been years and all we’ve gotten is pushing back the date followed by a “we don’t know when it will open”.
Eventually we’ll know. And it will be a doozy.
Sure! Really been digging this guy’s videos lately. Super interesting stuff that I never even considered.
https://youtu.be/RvW16nVVgjQ?si=pLwY0Xk_Ot6AnZUq
They really seem to have missed their chance to be transparent and blame the issues on the previous government. Of all the things they have blamed on the previous government, the LRT is something that is actually the Liberal's fault.
Wrote to my MPP about it following this article.
Yep, same answer always, it's the liberals fault.
Even if the project was a disaster caused by the liberals, then why not share it? It's the lack of transparency that drives me up the wall.
Hiding all the timelines and real issues isn't a liberal problem, it's a conservative decision.
Sink hole makes a lot of sense. Midtown has seen loads of construction where they dig up the newly laid concrete and reset it a week later. Something in the soil wasn't accounted for.
Doesn't this make sense though? I get being transparent but being transparent to the people of this city does absolutely fuck all to make people chill.
I heard from a friend whose husband is an engineer on a related project that the tracks don’t meet the standards for what TTC engineers will sign off on. Could also be a rumour but it explains the fact that the project is done but not operational. If it’s true it defies logic that they wouldn’t have consulted with TTC in the planning stages.
Everybody associated with the project. At some point there will be an investigation and everyone will end up wearing it.
* The province split out the work, leading to significant gaps when the contract for digging the tunnel didn't have to worry about the other contract's needs for laying the rails
* TTC will be found slow in making decisions and hedging their bets
* Metrolinx has dropped the ball on governing the project and not clear on requirements
* Private builders knew about gaps, but didn't raise them until they were too late to fix.
It's a pattern with our public works projects, if nothing else we can hope the size of this mess will bring forth a shift in how we manage them.
Heard from someone at some place close to overthere:
Rails are undersized as a result trains are prone to derailment
Automated system for the trains communicating with the system doesn't work underground
Many stations deleted waterproofing and used xypex concrete additive in areas with a fair amount of ground water. A couple if stations are constantly wet and rusting away
They are not sure how to fix any of these short of massive rework.
It applies well when there is minimal ground water/non existant water table. But in areas with a fair amount of water and hydrostatic pressure it fails. Need an actual waterproofing system.
> Rails are undersized as a result trains are prone to derailment
How do you fuck up that badly. But even if this is the issue, replacing the rails seems like it wouldn’t be *impossible*, just expensive. Seems fixable.
> Automated system for the trains communicating with the system doesn't work underground
I’ve heard about software/system issues like this too, but we are not the only city in the world to have an unground LRT. Not sure why we couldn’t just replicate whatever other cities are doing? (or whatever the subway trains in this city do). Seems fixable.
> Many stations deleted waterproofing and used xypex concrete additive in areas with a fair amount of ground water. A couple if stations are constantly wet and rusting away
This seems most plausible to me. I absolutely believe people were cutting corners and trying to save costs, and weren’t thinking about the actual environment factors requiring stuff like waterproofing in the first place. This also sounds pretty impossible to fix.
Considering that they opted for the international standard track gauge instead of ttc gauge (which is wider, not smaller than standard) *specifically* to avoid that, I agree that that seems unlikely to be the issue. Improperly engineered stations wouldn’t surprise me at all though.
The problem was deciding to use the same vehicles as the regular streetcars. They do fine crawling across the city at 10kph through traffic, but shake themselves to pieces at speed in the tunnels.
That will be true of any low floor design with the equipment on the roof.
Your statement is not at all true. Edmonton and Kitchener-Waterloo have the same rolling stock setup and have not had the same issues you describe.
Ottawa LRT yes, but they use a completely different rolling stock than Eglinton/Edmonton/KW
I'm still convinced that the Ford and provincial Tories are using the public agreement that we are a laggard city and country when it comes to any sort of infrastructure, to further their money laundering and cronyism in the construction and real estate business. Like, why are there like fucking 88 vice presidents of bullshit at Metrolinx when these stupid fuckers can't finish any projects.
It's such a level of incompetency that it's more believable if it was by design.
Doug Ford.
The purpose of Metrolinx is to take the heat off of the politicians: you have this "arms-length" agency, supposedly run by independent experts, whose job it is to do the unpopular things (announce the delays, take responsibility for the screwups, etc.) in ways that prevent accountability from reaching the minister responsible.
In practice, the Minister of Transportation treats Metrolinx as a personal fiefdom (a practice which, in fairness, began under the Liberals), completely obliterating that whole "arms length" thing, but the politicians still like to maintain it as a fig leaf.
This arrangement is fragile along one specific axis: if Metrolinx were, in fact, an arms-length entity, then if things got really bad (say, if a major construction project were several years late and 4 billion dollars over budget), it would be appropriate for the Minister to crack the whip and demand accountability, perhaps even a public inquiry. The fragility is that, because Metrolinx is so tightly controlled by the Minister's office, any public inquiry would inevitably implicate the politicians. (A lesson Doug Ford might have learned firsthand from his public inquiry into Ottawa's Confederation Line, which was *brutal*.)
What both sides are now doing is a calculated dance to manage that fragility. The goal is to allow the public to be angry at the Metrolinx *brand*, but avoid giving the public the information they need to demand meaningful accountability from anyone involved. If you don't make promises, you can't be held accountable for breaking them. If you don't commit to deadlines, you can't be held accountable for blowing through them. And so on.
The ideal outcome: gosh, this project sure is a real dilly of a pickle, all these delays and such, but, well, golly, sometimes good work just takes time, don't worry your pretty little head about it. It's nobody's fault. Nobody is responsible. Nobody needs to be blamed. Blame is counter-productive. We need to focus on getting this great project built for the hard-working swing voters of northern Toronto!
It is crazy that developing countries can build dozens of km Of subways and highways in 2-3 years but we take decades
I seen this in a lot of other cities that build transit quickly, they just put transit on elevated portions in the middle of streets, at least it will be built much faster.
yeah I seen in mtl and vancouver they been building a lot of rapid transit lines for cheap vs toronto and quick just using elevated bridges and build along highways or rivers etc.
And this isn't even a fucking subway. It's a LRT which doesn't even handle even close to half the capacity of a subway. And it will cost $20 billion which is like 2 subways in some major American cities. This has been a complete fucking disaster and corruption from top to bottom enabled by Ford.
It has to be something directly to do with Ford and/or the OPC.
Either the company that screwed up is such a major party donor that they told Ford to "bury the story or else we give Billions to Crombie" and he said "Yes Sir"
Or the screw up is with a company that was hired after 2018 to replace one that the OPC fired because they thought it was "too woke" (I.e this problem would not have happened if Wynne had been elected again)
Because if this could be traced to the OLP, Ford would be mentioning it every other minute
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I heard it was different organizations/companies building that line, but it would be reassuring if someone else who is more knowledgeable could confirm that. 
Ontario Line will definitely open. The opening of Ontario Line primarily benefits Ford's backers - new condo developments and the luxury spa. There's immense wealthy pressure behind Ontario Line. Same as the Vaughan subway extension.
On the other hand, the crosstown primarily benefits us citizens, not business interests. There's no cost of failure.
The idea that the Ontario Line isn't going to be hugely beneficial to riders is the weirdest take I've seen in a while. It's a line that's been in the works since the 80s for a reason.
Ontario line will be built by at least 4 separate consortiums who have different geographic and technical responsibilities. There is certainly overlap in the companies in the different consortia and the current Crosslinx partner companies. Only Ellis Don has sworn off transit projects and won’t be participating in any of them.
Eglinton Crosstown is just cursed lol. It was supposed to be our next big transit expansion given its potential. Eglinton is literally the only street that crosses all 6 boroughs of Toronto. Not only that but it was supposed to give trust towards the public on the city's credibility to build transit on time. Instead, people are going to just sit in their cars because of how bad transit expansion is. Really sad we may not see it complete by the end of this year.
For real. The timelines on this thing are insane.
I was 15 when the line was announced in 2007. I was 19 when construction began in 2011. I’m 32 later this year, and somehow it’s not done yet. Just unreal. We’re about to blow past the original 2011-2020 construction timeline by a cool 50% or more. It’s beyond maddening. I also read a couple months ago that apparently the train control software system isn’t ready yet. How is that even possible??
Part of me thinks it’s just never going to open tbh.
I'm an engineer for ECWE. I can tell you based on my own experience that the fault is probably on MX and sways in the government's priorities. At this point it's difficult for it to be a technical problem, not like in Scarborough's tunnel...
Without getting too technical or breaching contracts. People hired by Metrolinx to do concept designs suck ass.
I was actively involved in the design of the recent tunnel that just breakthrough at Eglinton, right now in a Request for Proposal process for a different contract and in the Request for Qualifications for the stations in Eglinton. My job has been correcting Metrolinx and trying to push them to a better solucion 10 times out of 10.
The main difference vs Europe, which is were I come from, is the clear lack of deep technical background in the people advising Metrolinx and that translates in delays/failures in construction.
Having said that, I can't speak of the projects discussed in the article as I am not directly involved with that specific team.
Thanks man. So the root of the problems are ass sucking designs.
By the way, are the TBMs abandoned in the ground after use on this project? Do you know?
For the first one, I can't be more precise without breaching an NDA with my company. I think it was clear on my response.
For your second question, depends on the intentions of the CJV. If they can see any reuse of any part they usually build an extraction shaft but, given they are such complex machines and tailored for each project, they may be left inside. In my experience, we have reused every single one to get profit in future projects in the same area but again they were shallow tunnels.
Metrolinx is cursed. Imagine an agency created by Liberals to give cushy nepotistic jobs to their friends, and then taken over by Conservatives. It was always going to end up like this.
What's really weird is that Metrolinx is actually doing a good job with GO, and the Ontario Line is moving along as well (obviously we don't know whether it will have major problems). This seems to be an issue specific to Eglinton, and maybe also Finch West
no, that implies everything was well planned and just ran into problems. Really its a mismanaged disaster, its costing us way, way more than it should with no results (where is the money going?)
It's not cursed. It's been deliberately delayed this long so that Metrolinx can suck more public taxpayer money to pad the wallets of their CEOs and execs. It's pure corruption.
I work on this project often for work, obviously my opinion means nothing but I’m inclined to agree with people in the comments saying that this thing will likely not be open for a while longer. My company regularly deals with the most brain-dead deficiencies and problems caused by Crosslinx providing improper drawings, wrong information, unclear instructions, etc. and it’s pretty much been that way everyday for the last few months.
I am not hopeful. Lol
I worked at the Yonge / eglinton station for a year in the early stages of construction, after excavation..
There was always water !
Either coming seeping up from below or weeping from the walls..
THERE WAS ALWAYS WATER ISSUES !
Metrolinx absolutely fucked up on every step of the Eglington project, no question there.
However, I do think one of the reasons they are so tight-lipped in this current phase of the project is they are at least considering suing Crosslinx once the project is finally completed, and if they release the wrong information at the wrong time it will hurt any chance of clawing back money from Crosslinx later. From previous reports I've seen its pretty clear that it was Crosslinx that failed to properly manage the logistics of building the stations that caused most of the delays and cost overruns, and it was Crosslinx that didn't build the tracks to meet the gauge tolerances agreed upon in their contract with Metrolinx that caused further delays and cost overruns. I think Metrolinx basically decided to just take the PR and financial hits to get the project finished asap rather than suing Crosslinx right away which would have only further delayed the project.
Of course if Metrolinx had done proper quality control checks as the project was progressing a lot of these construction problems could have been caught and fixed years ago, so Metrolinx is still ultimately to blame for the delays and cost overruns because their entire procurement process was flawed, which they have already publicly admitted and have made process changes to address. Those changes to their procurement and QA control is one of the main reasons the Finch LRT is literally on track to be done before the Eglington line at this point, despite the Eglington project having nearly a 10 year head start.
Get out of here with your reasoned analysis. I heard there’s a portal to Oz at the bottom of Eglinton and Ford is down there trying to deal with the flying monkeys coming through .
Heard from a fellow coworker that worked on parts of the LRT that they built some stations on a water bed therefore they are having issues with flooding. Not sure of how legit that is. Maybe someone else heard of this?
Honestly, sometimes the first-world needs to learn from my people in the third.
If this happened back in my home country (Which has a pretty good public transit system), we would have burned down the CEO's house by now and imprisoned him.
This is some "let them eat cake" nonsense.
I'll bet something major went wrong in design or construction that wasn't noticed until everything was nearly done, and whoever built it doesn't want to pay to fix it. So you have different companies trying to shift the cost and blame around. Until someone is legally forced to pay it, it won't get fixed and the line can't open.
This is almost certainly the Premiers Office directly controlling the flow of information - literally any release has to pass through for approval. They don’t want people to know a timeline until they can make a snap announcement that it will open imminently and they “saved the day”. It’s their idea of optics, particularly now that an early election seems likely.
The good news is trains are in full testing/training running frequently on the line. If you go to the aboveground section they pass every 7 minutes or so, opening doors at stations and “next train” displays seemingly working. It’s very close to opening and I wouldn’t be surprised if they announce at the next press conference (June IIRC) it will be this fall. Most of the “I know a guy who heard a thing that it will never open” is pure speculation. There was massive mismanagement of the project but it is indeed almost finished.
Call Ford on that personal phone number that he gives out to make things happen and make sure he gets another term in office.
He'll surely make things happen better than anyone else can!
/drooling sarcasm
> and even harm the future safety of the line.
This is a dig at Ottawa (city, not feds) for allegedly speeding up the testing process to suit the then-mayor’s political agenda.
Last word I got from a friends friend who works at Metrolinx is that the LRT final construction completion date is January 1st 2025. That means June 2025 operational at best.
So, from:
We'll be done in 10 years, to...
We'll absolutely be done in 20 years, to...
Don't blame us, blame the government, to...
We're almost done! To...
Who says we're done? To...
No, I'll tell you when we're done.
They can’t stop the water getting in
SCADA software wasn’t built /designed for what they want it to do (who woulda thought in checking into that first )
They’re going back and splicing and resplicing fibre because of their own changes
Most of it was done a few years ago
Copper cabling is rotting in conduits that are filling with water
Emergency phones won’t seem to update when far from switch for whatever reason (even under 300 ft) they’re having to take them off the wall bring them literally next to the switch and plug them in
Uhhhh I could go on
Uhh let’s see what else hmmmm switches not powering devices because there is too much load so a camera doesn’t work , then unplug a phone suddenly the camera starts working ….
Their track intrusion laser system not working properly communicating with trains ….
They were using the DAS system for awhile because the trains comms were dead spots
And ya know this was all imagineered by good old SNC
Seem like Metrolinx does not have to answer to taxpayers who literally pay there salaries. WTF is happening to Ontario? New logo "Ontario... Don't ask any questions because we don't have any answers."
Honestly 2024 is the year of making shitty companies accountable for their actions. I wish something could be done instead of metrolinx executives getting richer and richer.
My neighbour works for Metrolinx, they only hired a supervisor recently after 2 years of just consultants over seeing his work. He also admitted that he is not sure what is going on because there is no clear hierarchy and leadership on the managerial side.
This is such a fucking corrupt travesty happening. This project has now cost more than a fucking subway and will probably cost more than $20 billion when it's done. That's billions of your tax dollars that are being used for money laundering and free money being funneled to these corrupt fucks in Metrolinx execs. And we still don't know what the fuck is happening. Our tax dollars being used and we don't know what it's being spent on. Pure corruption enabled by Doug Ford that allowed the CEO to keep his job and get a massive raise.
Did all the engineers on the project graduate from one of Dougie’s diploma mills…? JFC about to be a decade since breaking ground on what should have been a 4-5 year project MAX. Idiots
How do all these developing nations build several subway lines at a time, and we can't even build one lrt line. And don't even get me started on high speed rail!
They don't allow rampant corruption and there is actually some accountability and transparency when they do their shit. Notice how we don't get even the tiniest bit of information whatsoever? Yea that shit wouldn't fly in other countries.
FOI decisions can be appealed; was this done, and if not, why not?
"We the people" are so gullible and naïve: Metrolinx is **a Government of Ontario-owned crown corporation.** While it is true that I have no inside info, I feel that I know what is going on here: money is being sucked out of taxpayers pockets with the collusion of Doug Ford, and all "We the people" will do about this is huff and puff. It is blatantly false to say that Metrolinx can refuse to disclose to provincial government all expenditures and every other thing going on within the company. If the provincial government wanted answers, the CEO would be removed and 100% of payments to them would stop: but this isn't happening, so figure it out, folks.
It is not just people who would use the service who should, it is every taxpayer in the province.
Who here would be willing to to give a day to show up at Queen's Park on a week day--even better, when we know that parliament is voting on an important Bill? What we need is 100,000 prepared close all in and out traffic to the building...
If they can't explain to the public what the problems are, then just give up and fill it in. Fire everyone. Bring in transit people from other countries who actually know what they're doing for future projects.
Make the other portions viable for trains or turn them into a cross-town bike network.
I really don't know what their problem is at this point but one thing I do want to mention is that I pass by Eglinton almost everyday on my way to work and I see the LRTs going back and forth atleast once every week.
It seems the work is happening and progressing but the lack of transparency around this whole project confuses me...
There’s a critical problem that I think has made the project impossible to complete as it’s currently designed. There’s been rumours for years, many of them in this thread about issues with underground water.
FWIW underground water is a major issue with the existing subway system in this part of the city already, and is one of the reasons for a lot of the weekend and evening closures on line 1. It's a huge more-or-less 24/7 job to keep water out of the tunnels. For instance in the late 90s the TTC discovered the tunnel north of Eglinton was moving in the ground, and it took around a decade of evening and weekend closures to fix . When the Crosstown eventually opens it likely will be similar.
So they knew underground water was a problem and they still thought about doing more underground work in area with massive underground water?!? Talk about incompetence. If that was the case then the entire project should've been above ground.
I can confirm, worked between several of the stations and water is very much an issue. Especially towards the east end. There are a lot of underground pathways to buried streams that the LRT cuts through.
Wouldn’t a Freedom of Information request get to the bottom of this? Sounds too simple to ask that. What am I missing?
Based on the length of the delay, it’s not a minor issue
Friend of mine worked on it, there's a section of track near eglington that keeps sinking into the ground that they have to keep fixing.
Turns out the designers never did groundwater studies in the area and forgot about all the buried rivers and the high water table.
How are we so bad in construction? Dubai and China make us look like idiots. Yes, I understand we have standards for working conditions, but apart from the propaganda we hear, they're not far off from us anymore.
This is an embarrassment to our city, which is already an embarrassment as it is. There are no repercussions for any actions so this is the result. Nothing will improve until people and bureaucrats fear repercussions.
> The two separate freedom of information requests were rejected by Metrolinx in their entirety. > > The first request was for the latest list of ongoing testing and operating issues. The second sought monthly status reports the consortium building the line, Crosslinx Transit Solutions, sends to Metrolinx. > > Metrolinx, however, denied both requests and claimed releasing them would impact information of third-party companies, the economic interests of the province, personal information and the security of buildings, vehicles or systems. > > **"We’ve been transparent with the public,”** Transportation Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria insisted to Global News. Shout-out to Isaac Callan and Colin D'Mello for composing and structuring this article in this exact order to show the utter irony of that quote. 😂
Literally throwing every excuse at the wall in the hope one sticks if this FOI request gets put before a judge. Disgusting and shameful.
Metrolinx has won in court on this kind of denial. Not sure if it’s the same request as the journos, but sounds familiar. E.g. : https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onipc/doc/2024/2024canlii32522/2024canlii32522.html Le judge: > Considering the circumstances of the appeal and the parties’ representations, **I am satisfied that Metrolinx properly exercised its discretion under section 18(1)(c) to withhold the records at issue. I find that Metrolinx considered relevant factors and the purpose of the section 18(1) exemption, and did not take irrelevant considerations into account**. While I understand that it is the appellant’s position that a more transparent claims process would be beneficial to Metrolinx and the public, it is clear that Metrolinx considered the nature of the claims process and the consequences of disclosing the records when exercising its discretion.
AI journalism could never
Prabmeet Sarkaria is hopelessly incompetent and somehow even less qualified than Stephen Lecce which is quite the achievement.
That is an achievement 
If the reason for hiding the information is that it would damage both the province and the companies involved you don’t even need to release the report, you’ve said enough. What a clown show
It’s amazing these people can keep a straight face - “We’ve been transparent with the public,” Transportation Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria insisted to Global News.
Can't be a conservative politician if you have any sense of shame
They just won't transport the public!
Do you see any information from them? No? Then it's invisible and what things are invisible? Transparent things, that's what.
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
That's what I keep telling my wife. She has yet to agree.
who or what is being protected by this refusal to disclose?
Clearly something in the engineering/construction went horribly awry, and I don’t think they actually know how to fix it. It’s the only way you can explain the fact that the line has allegedly been 97% complete since at least 2022 and yet there’s no opening date in sight. I’ve heard there’s a sink hole problem at Yonge/Eglinton. I’ve also heard that something went wrong with the tracks(?). I’ve also also heard that some equipment is stuck down there and they can’t figure out how to get it out. Maybe none of that is true. Maybe all of it is true. Whatever it is, it must be horribly embarrassing and/or damaging for them to be covering it up with such radio silence.
I heard sink hole too, at Mt Pleasant and Eg though, with the added commentary it’s “unsolvable”, and related to not properly assessing underground water / rivers. Total rumour mill admittedly , but my source did seem to have their source that would be able to substantiate this.
Mt Pleasant/Eg makes sense, if you look at one of those “lost rivers” maps there’s one that pretty much runs right under the heart of the intersection. I’m no construction or engineering expert but underground rivers seem like something you should definitely “measure twice, cut once” about when you’re planning a project.
Don't know enough about the Crosstown project but wouldn't surprise me if it's a massive boondoggle. Anecdotally, I know a bunch of guys (and gals) who work for Metrolinx (GO Transit). The amount of whining and complaining I hear from all of them about the organization, specifically upper management, the work, and the jobs they do, gives me the impression there is a lot of dissension and disunity within Metrolinx. Some tow the company line as they are young and intend to move up the ranks, but others are closer to retirement age and don't hold back. I'm sure a lot of important details and tasks get missed or consistently pushed back due to the ongoing office politics and fractioning.
People who work at Metrolinx love to hate on it, but also they themselves are usually not the most outstanding characters. Metrolinx hires a lot of inexperienced people to manage work because a lot of experienced people don't want to touch the organization and its politics with a 10 ft pole. This leads to high turnover and ongoing issues with work.
This has been my experience watching the hiring of former colleagues to Metrolinx.
> People who work at Metrolinx love to hate on it, but also they themselves are usually not the most outstanding characters. I will pass that observation along to my Metrolinx contacts lol
$20 billion boondoggle apparently.
Was thinking the same thing.
I guess its not lost any more
Civil Engineers have had this solved for decades now. Reinforced Concrete mats. I suspect no one wants to pay for it.
I lived within a few blocks of Mount Pleasant and Eglinton for more than a decade. I can add the strip mall to the southwest is built on basically a swamp. I knew a business owner there, and one day I was joking to him, "They're going to kick you out and put up condos any day now because of that LRT stop half-a-block up the road." To which he replied, "They can't. They couldn't even put a three-storey structure on this whole plot of land because of how much water is under us. The only engineering solution would be to use caissons under the foundations the way they do in downtown Chicago. It would be ridiculously expensive compared to any other Toronto building project that can have solid foundations. This strip mall will still be here in a hundred years!" When he said it at the time, I remember thinking, "Wow. How crazy is it that the old swamp stopped right here, and meanwhile they're able to tunnel just a few hundred meters north of where I'm sitting?" Now it's a decade later, and what are the chances that sinkhole has something to do with a paved over swamp that the owner of the strip mall knew about and disclosed to his tenants but somehow no one at Metrolinx ever heard about it?
The one just south of Eglinton Junior Public School? They're trying to build a condo there, https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/750-mt-pleasant.45664 Also right behind it on Brownlow, https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/61-brownlow.46065
That's the one! They must have figured out something to do with the ground water? (Perhaps the water level dropped when a certain government organization drilled a 7-km-long tunnel nearby, draining a swamp..?)
So I lived there for 5 years during LRT construction and I can tell you there was large dewatering apparatus running 24/7/365 for those 5 years. Could hear it on the 12th floor of my building.
We may not get a subway for our $6b, but a giant sewer line to funnel all our swamp water into Scarborough is the next best thing!
You know, the tunnel does open up on a downward slope pointing towards the Don River. There might be something to that...
Generally the ground elevation decreases as you approach lakes/rivers/seas/oceans, yes.
I think groundwater is less of an issue for a condo because they can anchor the whole thing deeply through pilings as deep as they need to (bedrock) and the whole building sits on that? Building big deep foundations next to a body of water where the water table is a few meters deep is already a thing. With a concrete tube, if you drain the water, you get subsidence and part of your tube collapses or rails become untrue. And good luck placing deep pilings in a tunnel. Not an engineer.
The condos at Leslie and Sheppard are built on clay/mud! Pilings every 20ft had to be placed to provide a solid foundation.
I also heard (from a TTC employee) that it's an issue with underground water! They said Yonge and Eg, but I'm betting your info is more accurate.
I have heard similar from someone who knows someone working on this project for Metrolinx. The person said it was 'in the area' of Yonge and Eg. They've tried a couple fixes and failed and now all the contractors and Metrolinx are pointing fingers at each other because nobody wants to be on the hook for the costs. I feel like we are going to end up with an LRT east and LRt west that don't actually connect, until they fix this fiasco in another 10-15 yrs.
That was one of the reasons the underground sections made little sense. But the conservatives knew better apparently. Not all issues are solvable unless you throw infinite money and resources at the problem and create a new class of engineering solution.
Even when David Miller first announced the line as part of Transit City back in the day, the line was always going to be underground between Keele and Laird (the way it has been constructed now). Rob Ford wanted to put the whole thing underground but in one of City Council’s first acts of defiance against him, TTC Chair Karen Stintz called for a special meeting of council to override his decision in 2012. When Doug Ford became premier there was some fuckery with putting the westward extension underground but that’s not really a major contributing factor to the main line delays - the line was engineered to open without the West extension. The LRT had already been under construction for some years before the West extension was even approved.
The conservatives had nothing to do with planning this line. It was planned and contracts were signed under the previous Liberal government.
Not true - the line was moved underground by request of the fords. The conservative takeover of provincial affairs merely consummated the process.
No, it was not. Rob requested the change, council changed it back.
The mayor of Toronto has no power over Metrolinx or the provincial transit plans. If they did something at Rob Ford's request it's their fault for listening to him instead of an expert.
\*by request
Throw enough concrete/ reinforcement at it and the problem would be solved. Unless the hole ended up going to Russia or China I don't know how it could be deemed unsolvable. Did they find a lost civilization or the lizard people? I was kinda hoping for something exciting in 2024.
Interdimensional monster portal stuck open.
Is this a reference to the comic short story [Signal Problems](http://www.namisato.org/portfolio/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CSignal%2520Problems%E2%80%9D%2520is%2520a%2520comic,Comics%2520Anthology's%2520Yonge%2520at%2520Heart)?
Bingo
The Hellmouth being under Northern Secondary... I'd believe it
that's my guess...
If that’s the problem, it’s probably fixable. It’s probably also expensive and they’re still at the pointing Spider-Man meme stage of all of this trying to decide who covers the cost.
Being stuck in legal limbo does seem to make more sense than engineering limbo. Lawsuits can take ridiculously long, especially if it’s this messy and with so many different business entities involved.
You could fix the problem and (perhaps legally) settle out who will pay for it later.
I’ve been watching YouTube videos on Torontos lost river system and I buy sinkhole and fucking up reading the water table that I’ve seen floated here before. Whatever happened is obviously such a colossal fuck up they don’t want it known, but it’s fairly obvious there may not be a fix at all since it’s been years and all we’ve gotten is pushing back the date followed by a “we don’t know when it will open”. Eventually we’ll know. And it will be a doozy.
> YouTube videos on Torontos lost river system Any chance you could link? I'm curious
Sure! Really been digging this guy’s videos lately. Super interesting stuff that I never even considered. https://youtu.be/RvW16nVVgjQ?si=pLwY0Xk_Ot6AnZUq
Thanks a lot
Not sure why the current government hasn't forced them to disclose the reasons. They weren't responsible for the original project, anyway.
They really seem to have missed their chance to be transparent and blame the issues on the previous government. Of all the things they have blamed on the previous government, the LRT is something that is actually the Liberal's fault.
Wrote to my MPP about it following this article. Yep, same answer always, it's the liberals fault. Even if the project was a disaster caused by the liberals, then why not share it? It's the lack of transparency that drives me up the wall. Hiding all the timelines and real issues isn't a liberal problem, it's a conservative decision.
It’s crazy to me they can keep their issues a secret. Aren’t there literally hundreds of people working on this project who know what’s going on?
Sink hole makes a lot of sense. Midtown has seen loads of construction where they dig up the newly laid concrete and reset it a week later. Something in the soil wasn't accounted for.
My brother worked on some of the rail as a welder and he has crazy stories about how things are run.
Do you have any good details
Man wtf Metrolinx is so damn incompetent
“Oops, we made the tracks out of silica! No idea how that happened. We have to regroup and start again!”
I’ve heard about the tracks issue. But yeah doesn’t make it true
Doesn't this make sense though? I get being transparent but being transparent to the people of this city does absolutely fuck all to make people chill.
I heard from a friend whose husband is an engineer on a related project that the tracks don’t meet the standards for what TTC engineers will sign off on. Could also be a rumour but it explains the fact that the project is done but not operational. If it’s true it defies logic that they wouldn’t have consulted with TTC in the planning stages.
Everybody associated with the project. At some point there will be an investigation and everyone will end up wearing it. * The province split out the work, leading to significant gaps when the contract for digging the tunnel didn't have to worry about the other contract's needs for laying the rails * TTC will be found slow in making decisions and hedging their bets * Metrolinx has dropped the ball on governing the project and not clear on requirements * Private builders knew about gaps, but didn't raise them until they were too late to fix. It's a pattern with our public works projects, if nothing else we can hope the size of this mess will bring forth a shift in how we manage them.
>TTC will be found slow in making decisions and hedging their bets They were not involved.
Heard from someone at some place close to overthere: Rails are undersized as a result trains are prone to derailment Automated system for the trains communicating with the system doesn't work underground Many stations deleted waterproofing and used xypex concrete additive in areas with a fair amount of ground water. A couple if stations are constantly wet and rusting away They are not sure how to fix any of these short of massive rework.
Is Xypex unreliable? Or was it just specified when it shouldn't have been, i.e. outside of recommended application parameters?
It applies well when there is minimal ground water/non existant water table. But in areas with a fair amount of water and hydrostatic pressure it fails. Need an actual waterproofing system.
> Rails are undersized as a result trains are prone to derailment How do you fuck up that badly. But even if this is the issue, replacing the rails seems like it wouldn’t be *impossible*, just expensive. Seems fixable. > Automated system for the trains communicating with the system doesn't work underground I’ve heard about software/system issues like this too, but we are not the only city in the world to have an unground LRT. Not sure why we couldn’t just replicate whatever other cities are doing? (or whatever the subway trains in this city do). Seems fixable. > Many stations deleted waterproofing and used xypex concrete additive in areas with a fair amount of ground water. A couple if stations are constantly wet and rusting away This seems most plausible to me. I absolutely believe people were cutting corners and trying to save costs, and weren’t thinking about the actual environment factors requiring stuff like waterproofing in the first place. This also sounds pretty impossible to fix.
Considering that they opted for the international standard track gauge instead of ttc gauge (which is wider, not smaller than standard) *specifically* to avoid that, I agree that that seems unlikely to be the issue. Improperly engineered stations wouldn’t surprise me at all though.
The problem was deciding to use the same vehicles as the regular streetcars. They do fine crawling across the city at 10kph through traffic, but shake themselves to pieces at speed in the tunnels. That will be true of any low floor design with the equipment on the roof.
We should have just continue building the subway along Eglinton.
Your statement is not at all true. Edmonton and Kitchener-Waterloo have the same rolling stock setup and have not had the same issues you describe. Ottawa LRT yes, but they use a completely different rolling stock than Eglinton/Edmonton/KW
Not the same vehicle: Flexity Freedom vs Flexity Outlook. Also running at different track gauges.
This screams dramatized jobsite gossip. Especially the first 2, sounds laughable.
It sure does. Personally I'd rather see the line open and operating than posting here on this topic.
I'm still convinced that the Ford and provincial Tories are using the public agreement that we are a laggard city and country when it comes to any sort of infrastructure, to further their money laundering and cronyism in the construction and real estate business. Like, why are there like fucking 88 vice presidents of bullshit at Metrolinx when these stupid fuckers can't finish any projects. It's such a level of incompetency that it's more believable if it was by design.
Doug Ford. The purpose of Metrolinx is to take the heat off of the politicians: you have this "arms-length" agency, supposedly run by independent experts, whose job it is to do the unpopular things (announce the delays, take responsibility for the screwups, etc.) in ways that prevent accountability from reaching the minister responsible. In practice, the Minister of Transportation treats Metrolinx as a personal fiefdom (a practice which, in fairness, began under the Liberals), completely obliterating that whole "arms length" thing, but the politicians still like to maintain it as a fig leaf. This arrangement is fragile along one specific axis: if Metrolinx were, in fact, an arms-length entity, then if things got really bad (say, if a major construction project were several years late and 4 billion dollars over budget), it would be appropriate for the Minister to crack the whip and demand accountability, perhaps even a public inquiry. The fragility is that, because Metrolinx is so tightly controlled by the Minister's office, any public inquiry would inevitably implicate the politicians. (A lesson Doug Ford might have learned firsthand from his public inquiry into Ottawa's Confederation Line, which was *brutal*.) What both sides are now doing is a calculated dance to manage that fragility. The goal is to allow the public to be angry at the Metrolinx *brand*, but avoid giving the public the information they need to demand meaningful accountability from anyone involved. If you don't make promises, you can't be held accountable for breaking them. If you don't commit to deadlines, you can't be held accountable for blowing through them. And so on. The ideal outcome: gosh, this project sure is a real dilly of a pickle, all these delays and such, but, well, golly, sometimes good work just takes time, don't worry your pretty little head about it. It's nobody's fault. Nobody is responsible. Nobody needs to be blamed. Blame is counter-productive. We need to focus on getting this great project built for the hard-working swing voters of northern Toronto!
It is crazy that developing countries can build dozens of km Of subways and highways in 2-3 years but we take decades I seen this in a lot of other cities that build transit quickly, they just put transit on elevated portions in the middle of streets, at least it will be built much faster.
Yes, we were going to do that. Rob Ford killed it because he was only cared about drivers, and brought a very naïve perspective to doing so.
yeah I seen in mtl and vancouver they been building a lot of rapid transit lines for cheap vs toronto and quick just using elevated bridges and build along highways or rivers etc.
And this isn't even a fucking subway. It's a LRT which doesn't even handle even close to half the capacity of a subway. And it will cost $20 billion which is like 2 subways in some major American cities. This has been a complete fucking disaster and corruption from top to bottom enabled by Ford.
Probably our legal position in the inevitable next lawsuit between Metrolinx and Crosslinx.
Their jobs and their friends most likely.
Idk the mob? The level of silence is pretty intense.
It has to be something directly to do with Ford and/or the OPC. Either the company that screwed up is such a major party donor that they told Ford to "bury the story or else we give Billions to Crombie" and he said "Yes Sir" Or the screw up is with a company that was hired after 2018 to replace one that the OPC fired because they thought it was "too woke" (I.e this problem would not have happened if Wynne had been elected again) Because if this could be traced to the OLP, Ford would be mentioning it every other minute
This agency's leadership needs to be fired... Out of a canon... Into the sun.
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The CEO unironically needs to be criminally investigated. I sortof want him to go to jail
I'm beyond sort of. Put the CEO in the sinkhole (if it exists) with a shovel LOL
"We've been transparent with the public" is probably the biggest lie I've heard in the past year
My God. These are the same people in charge of Ontario Line?
I heard it was different organizations/companies building that line, but it would be reassuring if someone else who is more knowledgeable could confirm that. 
You are correct. Crosslinx is building Eglinton Crosstown. Ontario Transit Group is building Ontario Line. Two entirely different consortiums.
So you're saying there's still a chance I could see the Ontario line running in my lifetime.
at this point the Ontario Line probably has better odds of opening before the Eg
Ontario Line will definitely open. The opening of Ontario Line primarily benefits Ford's backers - new condo developments and the luxury spa. There's immense wealthy pressure behind Ontario Line. Same as the Vaughan subway extension. On the other hand, the crosstown primarily benefits us citizens, not business interests. There's no cost of failure.
The idea that the Ontario Line isn't going to be hugely beneficial to riders is the weirdest take I've seen in a while. It's a line that's been in the works since the 80s for a reason.
The Ontario Line already has all the tunnels dug up and it's only been like a year.
Phew. Thanks T98i for this glimmer of good news in an otherwise dreary discussion!
Those are just corporation names, who actually owns the corporations? Likely the same people…
Ontario line will be built by at least 4 separate consortiums who have different geographic and technical responsibilities. There is certainly overlap in the companies in the different consortia and the current Crosslinx partner companies. Only Ellis Don has sworn off transit projects and won’t be participating in any of them.
Eglinton Crosstown is just cursed lol. It was supposed to be our next big transit expansion given its potential. Eglinton is literally the only street that crosses all 6 boroughs of Toronto. Not only that but it was supposed to give trust towards the public on the city's credibility to build transit on time. Instead, people are going to just sit in their cars because of how bad transit expansion is. Really sad we may not see it complete by the end of this year.
For real. The timelines on this thing are insane. I was 15 when the line was announced in 2007. I was 19 when construction began in 2011. I’m 32 later this year, and somehow it’s not done yet. Just unreal. We’re about to blow past the original 2011-2020 construction timeline by a cool 50% or more. It’s beyond maddening. I also read a couple months ago that apparently the train control software system isn’t ready yet. How is that even possible?? Part of me thinks it’s just never going to open tbh.
I'm an engineer for ECWE. I can tell you based on my own experience that the fault is probably on MX and sways in the government's priorities. At this point it's difficult for it to be a technical problem, not like in Scarborough's tunnel...
Without using acronyms, what do you estimate the issue(s) to be?
Without getting too technical or breaching contracts. People hired by Metrolinx to do concept designs suck ass. I was actively involved in the design of the recent tunnel that just breakthrough at Eglinton, right now in a Request for Proposal process for a different contract and in the Request for Qualifications for the stations in Eglinton. My job has been correcting Metrolinx and trying to push them to a better solucion 10 times out of 10. The main difference vs Europe, which is were I come from, is the clear lack of deep technical background in the people advising Metrolinx and that translates in delays/failures in construction. Having said that, I can't speak of the projects discussed in the article as I am not directly involved with that specific team.
Thanks man. So the root of the problems are ass sucking designs. By the way, are the TBMs abandoned in the ground after use on this project? Do you know?
For the first one, I can't be more precise without breaching an NDA with my company. I think it was clear on my response. For your second question, depends on the intentions of the CJV. If they can see any reuse of any part they usually build an extraction shaft but, given they are such complex machines and tailored for each project, they may be left inside. In my experience, we have reused every single one to get profit in future projects in the same area but again they were shallow tunnels.
Saying it’s cursed downplays the incompetence of those in charge.
Metrolinx is cursed. Imagine an agency created by Liberals to give cushy nepotistic jobs to their friends, and then taken over by Conservatives. It was always going to end up like this.
What's really weird is that Metrolinx is actually doing a good job with GO, and the Ontario Line is moving along as well (obviously we don't know whether it will have major problems). This seems to be an issue specific to Eglinton, and maybe also Finch West
Finch is pretty much ready. I think they want to hold off till after line 5 to open it
No reason for them to do that.
That was already built. Keeping trains on time is a different skill set.
GO is getting enormous amounts of new infrastructure. The Davenport Diamond, for example, was not a gong show.
So what’s the difference in your opinion?
MX is hostly doing a very good job with go trains.
no, that implies everything was well planned and just ran into problems. Really its a mismanaged disaster, its costing us way, way more than it should with no results (where is the money going?)
It's not cursed. It's been deliberately delayed this long so that Metrolinx can suck more public taxpayer money to pad the wallets of their CEOs and execs. It's pure corruption.
I work on this project often for work, obviously my opinion means nothing but I’m inclined to agree with people in the comments saying that this thing will likely not be open for a while longer. My company regularly deals with the most brain-dead deficiencies and problems caused by Crosslinx providing improper drawings, wrong information, unclear instructions, etc. and it’s pretty much been that way everyday for the last few months. I am not hopeful. Lol
Where the fuck is Doug ford with this shit show!? He can micro manage bullshit but not anything important
He’s at the corner store buying beer. Or selling off the Beer Store. Or the LCBO. Or whatever fucking shady dealings he’s up to on the daily.
But but $1 beers a thing right?! Lol
No, it's $10 a beer now, but only $59 if splurge on a 6-pack.
He got elected on a “buck a beer” platform…
shifting a billion dollars from healthcare and education for beer.
I worked at the Yonge / eglinton station for a year in the early stages of construction, after excavation.. There was always water ! Either coming seeping up from below or weeping from the walls.. THERE WAS ALWAYS WATER ISSUES !
What's the point of having a public transportation agency if they aren't transparent and accountable to the public? Tell us what the hell is going on!
Metrolinx absolutely fucked up on every step of the Eglington project, no question there. However, I do think one of the reasons they are so tight-lipped in this current phase of the project is they are at least considering suing Crosslinx once the project is finally completed, and if they release the wrong information at the wrong time it will hurt any chance of clawing back money from Crosslinx later. From previous reports I've seen its pretty clear that it was Crosslinx that failed to properly manage the logistics of building the stations that caused most of the delays and cost overruns, and it was Crosslinx that didn't build the tracks to meet the gauge tolerances agreed upon in their contract with Metrolinx that caused further delays and cost overruns. I think Metrolinx basically decided to just take the PR and financial hits to get the project finished asap rather than suing Crosslinx right away which would have only further delayed the project. Of course if Metrolinx had done proper quality control checks as the project was progressing a lot of these construction problems could have been caught and fixed years ago, so Metrolinx is still ultimately to blame for the delays and cost overruns because their entire procurement process was flawed, which they have already publicly admitted and have made process changes to address. Those changes to their procurement and QA control is one of the main reasons the Finch LRT is literally on track to be done before the Eglington line at this point, despite the Eglington project having nearly a 10 year head start.
Get out of here with your reasoned analysis. I heard there’s a portal to Oz at the bottom of Eglinton and Ford is down there trying to deal with the flying monkeys coming through .
Do you think there are hints of corruption or more incompetence?
Heard from a fellow coworker that worked on parts of the LRT that they built some stations on a water bed therefore they are having issues with flooding. Not sure of how legit that is. Maybe someone else heard of this?
This is correct.
Honestly, sometimes the first-world needs to learn from my people in the third. If this happened back in my home country (Which has a pretty good public transit system), we would have burned down the CEO's house by now and imprisoned him. This is some "let them eat cake" nonsense.
I'll bet something major went wrong in design or construction that wasn't noticed until everything was nearly done, and whoever built it doesn't want to pay to fix it. So you have different companies trying to shift the cost and blame around. Until someone is legally forced to pay it, it won't get fixed and the line can't open.
Amazing they'll get away with this
This is almost certainly the Premiers Office directly controlling the flow of information - literally any release has to pass through for approval. They don’t want people to know a timeline until they can make a snap announcement that it will open imminently and they “saved the day”. It’s their idea of optics, particularly now that an early election seems likely. The good news is trains are in full testing/training running frequently on the line. If you go to the aboveground section they pass every 7 minutes or so, opening doors at stations and “next train” displays seemingly working. It’s very close to opening and I wouldn’t be surprised if they announce at the next press conference (June IIRC) it will be this fall. Most of the “I know a guy who heard a thing that it will never open” is pure speculation. There was massive mismanagement of the project but it is indeed almost finished.
Metrostinx indeed.
If the Crosstown still isn't open by this time next year then it's never going to open. There must be some type of huge mess they're covering up.
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Call Ford on that personal phone number that he gives out to make things happen and make sure he gets another term in office. He'll surely make things happen better than anyone else can! /drooling sarcasm
Shout out to those in the comment who know what’s up sharing their intel 🫶🏻
> and even harm the future safety of the line. This is a dig at Ottawa (city, not feds) for allegedly speeding up the testing process to suit the then-mayor’s political agenda.
Yep As bad as it is, if they cut any corners now it will only be worse later
The city basically held hostage by metrolinx
Last word I got from a friends friend who works at Metrolinx is that the LRT final construction completion date is January 1st 2025. That means June 2025 operational at best.
So, from: We'll be done in 10 years, to... We'll absolutely be done in 20 years, to... Don't blame us, blame the government, to... We're almost done! To... Who says we're done? To... No, I'll tell you when we're done.
They can’t stop the water getting in SCADA software wasn’t built /designed for what they want it to do (who woulda thought in checking into that first ) They’re going back and splicing and resplicing fibre because of their own changes Most of it was done a few years ago Copper cabling is rotting in conduits that are filling with water Emergency phones won’t seem to update when far from switch for whatever reason (even under 300 ft) they’re having to take them off the wall bring them literally next to the switch and plug them in Uhhhh I could go on
I'm in the industry. Please do:) it's a good learning opportunity haha
Uhh let’s see what else hmmmm switches not powering devices because there is too much load so a camera doesn’t work , then unplug a phone suddenly the camera starts working …. Their track intrusion laser system not working properly communicating with trains …. They were using the DAS system for awhile because the trains comms were dead spots And ya know this was all imagineered by good old SNC
Wow and I thought my projects were hot potatoes...
Ontario refuses to pay Metrolinx - my dream outcome
Seem like Metrolinx does not have to answer to taxpayers who literally pay there salaries. WTF is happening to Ontario? New logo "Ontario... Don't ask any questions because we don't have any answers."
Honestly 2024 is the year of making shitty companies accountable for their actions. I wish something could be done instead of metrolinx executives getting richer and richer.
I've rebranded summer 2024 as Toronto's "Summer of Discontent"
This is why people drive. Because this province and city has failed to create a reliable, modern, and safe transit system.
I'll share: The tracks are sinking. Source: friend works onsite
Weight on the trains?
Any place in particular? Any reason they’re sinking?
What a mess.
It’s shit like this…
My neighbour works for Metrolinx, they only hired a supervisor recently after 2 years of just consultants over seeing his work. He also admitted that he is not sure what is going on because there is no clear hierarchy and leadership on the managerial side.
Can we sue metrolinx
There is a station right in the middle that is unsafe, flooded and unusable with no way to repair it. That is my guess.
I'm sure instead of providing any future update, they'll just release more passive aggressive videos of their "progress".
This is such a fucking corrupt travesty happening. This project has now cost more than a fucking subway and will probably cost more than $20 billion when it's done. That's billions of your tax dollars that are being used for money laundering and free money being funneled to these corrupt fucks in Metrolinx execs. And we still don't know what the fuck is happening. Our tax dollars being used and we don't know what it's being spent on. Pure corruption enabled by Doug Ford that allowed the CEO to keep his job and get a massive raise.
The Metrolinx experiment is a failure. Putting such important work in the hands of an at-arms-reach corporation is not in the public's interest.
Did all the engineers on the project graduate from one of Dougie’s diploma mills…? JFC about to be a decade since breaking ground on what should have been a 4-5 year project MAX. Idiots
Worse. They all got their PHD in engineering degrees from Krapistakhaztan University.
How do all these developing nations build several subway lines at a time, and we can't even build one lrt line. And don't even get me started on high speed rail!
They don't allow rampant corruption and there is actually some accountability and transparency when they do their shit. Notice how we don't get even the tiniest bit of information whatsoever? Yea that shit wouldn't fly in other countries.
FOI decisions can be appealed; was this done, and if not, why not? "We the people" are so gullible and naïve: Metrolinx is **a Government of Ontario-owned crown corporation.** While it is true that I have no inside info, I feel that I know what is going on here: money is being sucked out of taxpayers pockets with the collusion of Doug Ford, and all "We the people" will do about this is huff and puff. It is blatantly false to say that Metrolinx can refuse to disclose to provincial government all expenditures and every other thing going on within the company. If the provincial government wanted answers, the CEO would be removed and 100% of payments to them would stop: but this isn't happening, so figure it out, folks. It is not just people who would use the service who should, it is every taxpayer in the province. Who here would be willing to to give a day to show up at Queen's Park on a week day--even better, when we know that parliament is voting on an important Bill? What we need is 100,000 prepared close all in and out traffic to the building...
If they can't explain to the public what the problems are, then just give up and fill it in. Fire everyone. Bring in transit people from other countries who actually know what they're doing for future projects. Make the other portions viable for trains or turn them into a cross-town bike network.
probably better to shutter the whole agency and start something from scratch.
I really don't know what their problem is at this point but one thing I do want to mention is that I pass by Eglinton almost everyday on my way to work and I see the LRTs going back and forth atleast once every week. It seems the work is happening and progressing but the lack of transparency around this whole project confuses me...
There’s a critical problem that I think has made the project impossible to complete as it’s currently designed. There’s been rumours for years, many of them in this thread about issues with underground water.
FWIW underground water is a major issue with the existing subway system in this part of the city already, and is one of the reasons for a lot of the weekend and evening closures on line 1. It's a huge more-or-less 24/7 job to keep water out of the tunnels. For instance in the late 90s the TTC discovered the tunnel north of Eglinton was moving in the ground, and it took around a decade of evening and weekend closures to fix . When the Crosstown eventually opens it likely will be similar.
So they knew underground water was a problem and they still thought about doing more underground work in area with massive underground water?!? Talk about incompetence. If that was the case then the entire project should've been above ground.
I can confirm, worked between several of the stations and water is very much an issue. Especially towards the east end. There are a lot of underground pathways to buried streams that the LRT cuts through.
This tells me Metrolinx is very liable for the delays and issues.
Didn’t metrolinx sue OZZ for like $20-30 million? Is that related to this disaster?
Wouldn’t a Freedom of Information request get to the bottom of this? Sounds too simple to ask that. What am I missing? Based on the length of the delay, it’s not a minor issue
Still doing landscaping and paving in my area in Scarborough. Someone has been mowing the grass on the tracks for 3 years now.
So much tea here. Thank you 🙏
Friend of mine worked on it, there's a section of track near eglington that keeps sinking into the ground that they have to keep fixing. Turns out the designers never did groundwater studies in the area and forgot about all the buried rivers and the high water table.
What a joke this has become
How are we so bad in construction? Dubai and China make us look like idiots. Yes, I understand we have standards for working conditions, but apart from the propaganda we hear, they're not far off from us anymore.
This is an embarrassment to our city, which is already an embarrassment as it is. There are no repercussions for any actions so this is the result. Nothing will improve until people and bureaucrats fear repercussions.