[Adam McNamara in a later tweet says he would pay ALL of the emergency remediation in the report](https://twitter.com/adammcnamara/status/1804884342725845501). He is taking about [this report (note large PDF)](https://savesciencecentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/osc-building-a-to-c-raac-roof-panel-assessment-en-final-june-18-2024.pdf) but I'm not sure what that includes.
However, he doesn't believe that Doug Ford will take him up on it because he points to Aspen Ridge Homes development owned by the De Gasperis family that is being built across the street from the Ontario Science Center. That they would likely want to buy any land available on the lot of the Ontario Science Centre.
That's it exactly: The DeGasperis family and their development. Doug screwed up their chances for Greenbelt cash so he's got to make it up somewhere else - the Ontario Science Centre is part of that "somewhere else".
This is going to be an interesting game of chicken to watch. . . .
Daddy DeGasperi is on camera saying McGuinty and everyone on his side in the government “will pay” for whatever they denied him for. Someone making threats like that is dangerous, vindictive and motivated. This guy is a thug and Dough is his little bitch boy.
lol I can’t believe I’m talking like this- but it’s sickeningly true.
With money, speech and clothing might change but the gang/mafia mentality is in their core. How many times we’ve seen illegal gains laundered in construction schemes.
It really just speaks to what many have been "feeling" or "seeing" the way this specific iteration of the provincial government is being run; it's being run as though an "organized crime syndicate" is really at the helm and not a political party.
Oh this De Gasperis family, that he stills owes for the green belt fumble? How incredibly blatant
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/greenbelt-land-swap-wake-report-1.6960488
It's cute that Doug thinks that the RCMP went away after he canceled the Greenbelt scam. Let him cook, he'll trip himself up just like his idiot brother did every time he thought nobody was watching.
If the RCMP actually holds any of these criminals liable, I’ll be absolutely shocked.
Considering how much these ass holes are stealing from us, anything short of actual prison time will be meaningless.
Yeah we seem to be moving past the whole “holding politicians accountable” thing that the western world was so big on for the last three quarters of a century.
Hijacking the top comment to add that another ex-Shopify exec is also willing to put in up to $1-million to keep it open.
Source: https://x.com/SabiVM/status/1804968545635238240?t=85C8qYBX5x5CLgQter-r2w&s=19
There's two tables with two different budgets. Perhaps he means the first budget table labelled "RAAC Panel Remediation & Reassessment Costs" which is a total of $789,500. However, it's broken down by year starting in 2024 and going to 2029. If he is just suggesting the Ontario Science Center stays open for the summer of 2024, why would all those additional costs be needed? By the way, RAAC stands for Reinforced Autoclaved Aerated Concrete.
The 2nd budget table labelled "Roof Assembly and RAAC Replacement" has a much higher cost in 2024 it recommends $7,196,480 for "Roof Maintenance & Roof Assembly & RAAC Replacement".
Note that the report also says the following:
>"Based on our review of exposed RAAC panels to date, and that shoring has been installed to support critical risk panels, it is our opinion that buildings A, B and C are currently safe for occupancy until October 31, 2024"
Here's the [link again for the report PDF](https://savesciencecentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/osc-building-a-to-c-raac-roof-panel-assessment-en-final-june-18-2024.pdf) if anyone is interested reading it.
There’s one panel that needs to be replaced right now, and the area has to be barricaded off in case it fails. That’s why they closed immediately.
But to make it through the winter, they’d need to do the $7 million in roof work before snow comes.
Also, I’m pretty sure the report indicates they couldn’t check all the tiles, because many are covered/sealed, and they’d have to drill in to check each one. So there could be millions upon millions more worth of work to be done.
Also, if they don’t fix the roof by October 31st, then it has to close. But that also means they won’t be able to remove everything. So yeah, you can pay to replace the one tile in immediate danger of failing, but then you still have the issue of whether to begin removing everything, or trying to replace the roof before the deadline.
So they couldn’t stay open for the summer, anyways.
Everyone needs to look at the report
Then look at the floor plans
The only problem areas are on level 1 and 2
The great Hall, the Imperial oil auditorium and the rear of the entrance building.
The majority of the lower building wasn't built with those panels. The areas that were are in relatively good shape and don't require immediate intervention
Level 3 of the pods either has a story above it or has a slab concrete roof.
They could restrict access to the problem areas and wouldn't even have to close an exhibit
Which isn't surprising because those areas have had leaks for years so they haven't been using them
Those areas had been closed off to guests for a while, presumably due to the leaks
The millions of dollars being offered is more than enough do keep it open without having to close some of those spaces
There's six panels in the critical risk category across the three buildings, and all panels in both high and critical (4%) need to be replaced or remediated by winter to be safe. That's all in the 522k (though that number is only construction costs, full cost would still be under a million).
I'm sure corporations would have lined up to help save the roof too for publicity/naming rights, why wasn't this even attempted?
I don't care if it's got a corporate sponsorship, better than going under.
The City owns the land and leased it to the Province, but the City is also a creature of the Province so ultimately Doug can do whatever he wants (and has already shown his willingness to do whatever he wants).
One running theme I see is most people really underestimate how much power is in the hands of the provincial government instead of the municipal or the federal. For instance I never see anyone blaming the Ford government for bringing in international students even though the education system is under the province's control. I still got push back when I mentioned it as in the person's mind somehow the federal government decided to bring in those students.
The Feds issue student visas to individuals the Provincial government has deemed eligible to study at an institution that is licensed and overseen by the Provincial government. Are you suggesting that the Federal government take over education?
I just deleted my response because yours is so much more succinct and to the point.
But yeah it's indeed odd the same people who hated the Trudeau government using its power now like the same federal government stepping over the boundary. That's not how it's supposed to work, ideally anyway.
The universities and colleges are regulated by the provincial ministries and they have their own mandate and goals. If the provinces want to bring in more international students, it should be their own call and the provincial voters should decide on the consequences, especially since the same provincial government is also responsible for related policies in housing and healthcare as well.
To be fair everyone has been blaming the federal government for the international students so I suppose something had to be done. Just look at that response. But I think it's the Trudeau government pandering and not a good thing.
There was a great, in-depth comment on another reddit post I saw a few months ago (and I wish I had saved it) that went into a deep-dive on how this issue has been building since the 60's or 70's and how Canadian Universities and Colleges were forced to switch to finding alternative sources of funding (as the government didn't want to subsidize education to the extent it had been or something) and thus started bringing in more and more international students. Education may be the responsibility of the provincial governments but the federal government has played a big part in how we've gotten here IIRC.
The federal government can set limits on the total number of students allowed into the country. That's not an "oh! the provinces!" thing. The provinces do hold some responsiblity for the quality of the students coming in, and *all* the responsibility for giving their recognition to diploma mills as upstanding education institutions.
That's is my view of it as well. Ford could bitch and moan all he wants in an attempt to bring the whole world into Ontario but the feds have the final say on it, they're basically enabling him.
It’s a bit of an exaggeration to say he can do whatever he wants. There are laws on the books that govern municipalities and their powers. Doug can’t just go unilaterally changing laws and Olivia has also said she’s not afraid to take the province to court.
Ford already has changed municipalities and municipal powers, he can certainly do it again. There’s also the “not withstanding” clause he seems all to eager to use.
But it wasn’t exactly easy to do. His power is not unchecked. He can’t just unilaterally change the laws, he needs to get a bill through the house and even then the courts can shut it down. When he tried to use the notwithstanding clause in 2018 it went all the way to the Supreme Court.
He didn’t use it in 2018, he threatened to use it. The Supreme Court would be pretty much useless if a province uses the not withstanding clause, that’s kind of the point of it.
Of course, but I think you're overestimating the ability of the Court to intervene here. Unless the use of the notwithstanding clause impinges on other rights guaranteed by the Constitution, it's going to be tricky to win this case. It's already been used for much more egregious violations of civil rights than taking away a (much beloved) science museum.
It is not entirely unchecked, but especially if it is something that a law has already given the government regulation-making authority over, it is pretty close to it.
One of the things I learned when I worked in the Ontario government was that the government's lawyers often give a formal opinion as to the legality of any proposed act or regulation. But cabinet doesn't have to abide by its lawyers' opinion! And can pass a regulation that the lawyers refused to sign off on! And because of solicitor-client privilege (which is ridiculous in the context of the government, e.g. the AG & the SNC Lavalin scandal) nobody will ever know, including any citizen who may eventually try to take the government to court over its potentially-illegal law
Toronto exists at the whim of the province. If Doug Ford WANTED to he could dissolve the city of Toronto. No idea what that would look like, but he has the power to do it.
The science centre already has good sponsors but pretty sure they're just as surprised as the public are with the news.
The only way I see someone saving it would be the developers giving up the chance to take the science centre land.
Sadly I worked for the fundraising team at the centre for a few years. There was no lineup of corporate or individual major gift support for the centre ever.
Ford, under the spiritual guidance of Mike Harris, has shown again and again how he is willing to sell off the assets of the province for short term gain. Greenbelt. Ontario Place. Science Centre. He is destroying the future of the province to appease his corporate handlers.
Because even if you raise 25M for the roof you still have somewhere between 147.5M (2017) and 370M (2023) in other deferred maintenance. The roof wasn't even on the list in the original report.
You would think Douggie and friends would be all for such private largesse to keep a public good going.
But I bet that 500+k is a drop in the bucket compared to what ever kickback they're getting from whomever they promised the land to.
Ford is definitely getting kickbacks from his developer buddies. The ELRT will open soon and that land will skyrocket in value. A big condo or a shopping center will be a lucrative development.
I personally believe he's also testing the waters, seeing what he can get away with. Next he'll close Riverdale Farm or Centerville Amusement Park for big privatized developments. The first Ford (thankfully he can do no harm) wanted to build a bunch of garbage on the island and on the port lands.
Someone mentioned in another thread the Science Centre should be moved because it's hard to get to, I asked why it's being moved when it's about to become a new transit hub with two transit lines meeting there. The answer was the subway will take 10 more years and the downtown is still the better location regardless because everything else is already there.
As incorrect and inscrutable as that answer was, that kind of mindset did make me wonder if Ford and his government are just really obsessed with this idea of building out a cluster of attractions downtown, like really really in love with that idea and I'm not even making an accusation of corruption here.
> Someone mentioned in another thread the Science Centre should be moved because it's hard to get to, I asked why it's being moved when it's about to become a new transit hub with two transit lines meeting there. The answer was the subway will take 10 more years and the downtown is still the better location regardless because everything else is already there.
This is so stupid. What transit takes you to Ontario Place? Wouldn't the closest be walking from the top of Exhibition Place?
I don’t agree with anything Doug Ford does but our downtown pales in comparison to cities like Tokyo/NYC/Vegas/LA/London/Paris in terms of fun touristy stuff to do so if he just came out and said he wanted a stronger tourist trap in the core then I wouldn’t be mad
sadly I think it’s more likely he’s corrupt and bad at hiding it
The sad part is, there's no reason at all it couldn't be both. Keep the original going, build a satellite one for 1-2 exhibits that rotate back and forth, it keeps everyone happy. Well, except DoFo's developer buddies who want the land of course.
While I think our downtown is relatively boring, I also don't think the science center is necessarily a tourist attraction.
Having more areas for live performances, fairs, exhibitions, maybe build another museum or two imo would prob be better.
It's definitely not. There's always a science centre wherever we travel. We never go to it. Even with a kid now, it's sort of "we have science centre at home". Although...now we don't...
You can have science centers that are tourist attractions. We'll always take our kids to the Chicago one. But they need to be pretty exceptional, and I don't think Ontario is willing to invest to that level.
You know what would be a great model for Toronto's waterfront? Chicago - a very similar city in a lot of ways.
Chicago has mandated that everything along Lake Michigan should be publicly owned and it's paid off tremendously. The biggest tourist attraction is a sculpture in a public park near the waterfront, it hosts world class museums, amazing biking and walking trails, great playgrounds, skating paths, outdoor rock climbing, zoos, and several popular beaches. I don't see any way that selling it off to the highest bidder could possibly result in a better outcome.
I agree with you that our downtown pales when compared to the cities you mentioned.
Sadly, our downtown just doesn’t have the infrastructure to handle having a whole bunch of attractions “next” to each other.
In my opinion, the OSC is actually perfectly situated, particularly once the ELRT opens. It’s not too far from downtown and will be easily accessible once the ELRT opens. It’s also near other tourist attractions (like the Aga khan museum) which, for tourist planning purposes, allows folks to go to 2 attractions easily and fill up a day (I would argue otherwise that the museum and the OSC are not all day visits but can be done in half a day).
Also, (and I don’t know if this has changed), but when I was growing up schools always had field trips to the OSC. It was a great learning experience. If the OSC is moved downtown, that makes it terribly difficult for schools to access and only adds to traffic congestion.
There are benefits to having attractions/museums outside of the core - but still very accessible to the core - to the surrounding neighborhoods. It creates additional employment opportunities and, quite frankly, supports funding for otherwise ignored communities for revitalizing their neighborhoods as the optics for tourists become an important factor for the city as well.
None of this changes the fact that a small scale educational/science-focused attraction can still be built downtown. It doesn’t require shutting down the existing OSC.
Went on a bit of a rant, hope I got my points across cohesively!
Either you're rich or homeless. Everyone else thinks the hours long commute is awful, and the economic island you inhabit isn't sustainable, and the loss of family centric museums is a travesty to future generations.
It goes back to the goals that the Ontario Liberals & John Tory set for Ontario Place back in 2012 which included an education component to it.
In the plans that were submitted by the province to the city of Toronto back in November 2022, the province had included a ["science-based destination" in which the Ontario Science Centre would build some new science exhibits](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/). Basically we originally were going to get a small Ontario Science Centre expansion at Ontario Place. Then somebody in the PC party realized instead of the small expansion and paying for new exhibits, they could close down the original and move the existing exhibits.
Of course, if there was anything genuinely well-meaning here, the plan would be refurbish the OG OSC and add a second complex by Ontario Place (or, perhaps, just about anywhere). The current OSC has fewer attractions than it did in the 90s and the GTA’s population has long needed that kind of investment. But what do you expect from
PCs from Harris on?
>The current OSC has fewer attractions than it did in the 90s and the GTA’s population has long needed that kind of investment
Also even now they've had to run a shuttle service for about a year now from the front section down to the bottom section where you actually enter now (right by the metal ball hair raising exhibit) due to the front half being under Reno's I think? (it was mostly escalators and hallways)...so even when you go there now there is an extra headache on busy days to wait to pile aboard a like 12 seater shuttle bus (of which there MIGHT be two?) to trundle down the hill to the back of the OSC just to get in....repeat this line up on your way out.
Source\~I have a membership and we go often...or we did.
The shuttles are apparently because they didn’t maintain the bridge section properly either. It must have been in bad shape or soon to be in bad shape in 2018, but Doug Ford’s response has been to do nothing but look at ways of capitalizing on the land.
Nah, take some of that tinfoil off. Too many people are working on the ELRT for that kind of conspiracy to hold water (pun intended, because several of the stations are probably having flooding issues).
The ELRT has been held up by good ol bad planning and general incompetence.
The announcement that the Downtown Relief Line would now be the Ontario Line & extend up to the Ontario Science Centre also came *literally a month* after the DeGasperis bought 60 acres of land across the street from the Science Centre.
That definitely doesn't look good, but Transit City would have seen a line transfer from Pape into the Don Mills LRT, while south of Pape would have been a subway. That's not a good idea, even ignoring the fact that there is a significant wealth disparity between the sides of Danforth. Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park have the same transit line as Riverdale and Leslieville.
Meh, Doug has already shown that he cares not for the municipal layer and is happy to assert dominion over city hall. He'll notwithstanding-clause that shit in a heartbeat if someone offers him enough kickbacks.
Fucking with the island in the name of development would be massively controversial (and probably hugely expensive from an infrastructure perspective to support much more population than it has now). Riverdale maaaaaybe.
The problem with this line of thinking is that in a reasonable world this would stop him...but we don't live in that world and legally the city itself exists at the whim of the province, as such Ford can do whatever he wants if he pushes hard enough. We are finding out how full of holes our levels of govt are and how helpless the municipal levels can be if the province is run by a vengeful dickhead.
Because it turns out that "don't be ridiculously corrupt" was actually a social contract rather than a legal one.
Or more accurately, it's always been like this, and easier access to information has just made it harder to hide.
[RCMP investigating Ontario government's plan to open Greenbelt land for development | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rcmp-criminal-investigation-ford-greenbelt-1.6991595)
Is there no way to have Ford voted out or forcefully resign? How can one get away with so much blatant corruption (genuine question). I swear premiers before would not be able to get away with so much
>I swear premiers before would not be able to get away with so much
Because they had a modicum of respect for the office. Hell, the NWS clause was supposed to be a third rail of politics...if you feel the need to use it and the public disagreed, your political career was toast in the next election. Even Mike Harris got turfed after his scandals that make the Grenebelt look like child's play...but in the post-Trump era of politics, Ford's populist shit and pushing for every "social" boundary has ruined us. In a normal world the voting public would see the corruption, and want someone else at the Helm and the polls would reflect that....but now we live in a tribalistic social media hellhole where the cons have CONVINCED their voters that the corruption isn't so bad, and the Liberals and NDP would DESTROY everything.
Just like how the story of the sliver of land that was quietly removed from the Greenbelt: http://globalnews.ca/news/10019849/ford-friendly-union-greenbelt-land-removed/
It's so blatantly corrupt - how does an executive assistant come to own such a parcel of land? Then, nothing comes of the story. Meanwhile, if you look at the spokeslady for Liuna, she's busy being a mouthpiece for the conservative party and a certain foreign state...
I hope the mainstream media picks this up and runs with this.
Ford's nonsense is starting to work on the politically unengaged. I am already seeing commentary in my social circle about how poor healthcare is if it's free. The strategy is working. Cut funding to something you want to kill and just have a small amount of patience. We, as an electorate, are not holding the government to account
ONDP has been going hard with the FOI requests which is why we've gotten all this corruption coverage around Ontario place and the greenbelt. I'm sure we'll have plenty more revelations around this once the FOI requests are processed!
They seem to be the only ones that give a rats ass about anything going on yet they don't exist to many of the electorate and they'd rather flop back and forth between red and blue.
I find it very disheartening and I hope it changes some day at the provincial and federal levels.
I feel bad for the underpaid government workers who have to deal with all the FOI requests tomorrow. The science centre news came out so late on Friday afternoon so many people are going to be requesting first thing tomorrow morning
Unfortunately it feels like their name isn't being attached to it. Ask a random person about how the greenbelt scandal got exposed and they'll probably think it all just materialized out of thin air.
Do you have sources/links to the ONDP sending out FOI requests on this? I live in a by-election area that's going to the polls later today. I was on the fence with NDP, but if that's true, I'm convinced.
I could post links, but searching 'ONDP' and 'FOI' will give you results for some press releases of theirs which outline which documents they've been sharing via the FOI requests. Most of them have been around the Greenbelt, including pushing forward once one request revealed how much business was conducted on private phones and emails, but I believe there was one or two FOI requests made to Infrastructure Ontario which revealed the cost and bidding for the Therme/LiveNation parking garage.
I'm actually impressed by the ONDP right now, they've been really aggressive in ways I wish were more visible to the general public. Their social media game is on point too, whoever the staffer is running their tiktok has cracked the code on youth appeal, because my previously politically disengaged teenage nephew organically stumbled on it and has been really thoughtfully concerned about the state of politics in the province since. I've had a few conversations with him and was really impressed by his understanding, especially at that age. Those tiktoks do a great job of explaining how issues we see daily are a result of policy decisions, and what platform points are intended to address it and it's inspired him to do more research on his own and not take what politicians say at face value.
If you're on the fence, keep a sharper eye on what the ONDP is doing these days. Even a lot of articles that have big reveals around these scandals will mention who the FOI request was from and it's often either ONDP or other *amazing* grassroots activist groups, many of which have good working relationships & mutual support with the ONDP.
We need to start pointing those idiot friends to American anecdotes about trying to get insurance to cover cancers treatments and other bureaucratic horrors. [Rob Delaney has spoken at length](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/04/american-nhs-vote-boris-johnson-tories) about this while trying to convince Brits to support the equally underfunded NHS.
>I hope the mainstream media picks this up and runs with this.
The [Toronto Star has an article on Sabina Vohra-Miller](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/this-family-is-offering-1-million-to-help-fix-the-ontario-science-centre-will-doug/article_c56713ae-323e-11ef-9349-633f79a612ac.html) who is also formerly from Shopify who offered $1 million to keep the Ontario Science Centre open. [She had several other people from Shopify offer up money as well with one saying they would donate $100,000](https://twitter.com/SabiVM/status/1804968545635238240).
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This whole situation comically villainous. I grew up in the science centre and have never been to anywhere else like it. It’s part of Toronto and Canada’s identity. What’s with old fat premiers ruining everything? Recently graduated from McGill where Legault basically destroyed McGill’s future. Now Ford chooses to shut down the science centre in the most disgraceful way imaginable. Rip science centre the future is not bright.
He’s calling Doug Fraud’s bluff. Now, either Fraud accepts the help and the center stays, or it’s clear he’s the corrupt piece of crap we all know he is.
It really speaks to how useless & inept our government is and how mishandled our tax money has been when a Millionaire has to try stepping in to save a public institution that the government wants to execute via political guillotine for no fucking reason.
The scandal shouldn't merely be the Science Centre closing. The scandal should be that the government mishandled the entire thing so fucking badly that their own major responsibility got to this point, ignored maintenance, and was happy to not fix a giant safety hazard (if the new report is true at least, which I don't quite believe). What the fuck are we paying taxes for if Ford is just gonna use our taxes to pay for a fucking Spa and line his pockets? The amount of corrupt mismanagement happening in the open by the PCs is so laughably blatant that it would be funny if we weren't stupid enough to give them 2 majorities.
>The scandal should be that the government mishandled the entire thing so fucking badly that their own major responsibility got to this point, ignored maintenance, and was happy to not fix a giant safety hazard
it's not a "mishandling" if that was the plan all along... let it rot and hand it over to your crook buddies...
Yeah, but in Canada, municipalities are "creatures of the province". The province could take over that land and sell it. I'm sure Doug Ford and the PC party will point to the fact that we are in a housing crisis to justify why the land needs to be sold.
One way to make sure this doesnt happen is lobby insurance companies not to insure if built in the floodplain. Now the properties aren't mortgage able.
I think it's possible to build some condos or other housing on the parking lot and the front part of level one of the Ontario Science Centre. I think anything beyond the bridge on level 1, which had been closed down recently would be problematic.
If you didn't see the other reply, someone else pointed out that [some of the parking lots for the Ontario Science Centre are already being developed into condos](https://createto.ca/projects/770-don-mills).
The Toronto and Region Conservation Athority put out a press release in April 2023 pointing out the issues of building on the ravine and floodplains associated with the West Don River. [They have some photos showing how difficult it would be to bulid on it](https://trca.ca/news/ontario-science-centre/). The reason that the Ontario Science Centre is so spread out with different levels with bridges and escalators because of the ravine and floodplains.
From what I understand, it's even easier than that....they are in debt to the province, and Ford could call the debt off and in exchange make the 407 allow trucks and industry vehicles and whatnot to use it for free, which would ease traffic on the other east west routes...
The process to expropriate land under the exproporation act is lengthy and a recipe for political suicide. And when Doug said they were prepared to use the act to expropriate land for Ontario place Olivia said she wasn’t afraid to take the province to court. The city already has plans to build housing on the property so needing the land because of the housing crisis isn’t a strong argument.
Doug Ford is prepared to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers money for a parking structure for a private firm but not for a public facility. Just another example of taxpayer money going to the PRIVATIZATION.
It’s nice these rich people are stepping up to try and help out, but how depressing is it that we only get to keep these major public entities if rich people deem them worthy enough to be saved.
Well, it was the donations of rich people that made them possible in the first place. The science centre survived on one particular benefactor over the years and wasn’t ever self sufficient.
I hear ya. I just meant public entities and services in general. Healthcare, public education, the TTC. If rich people don’t use it, it doesn’t get funded properly.
And certain RE developers will give doug ford double the whammy to keep Science Centre Closed.
It's a daylight corruption we are seeing and Dougie is pretty comfortable doing it
Have not lived there for some time but when my kids were little I had a family pass and would go every other week. That place and the zoo were the best bang for your buck with little kids. I feel like I could draw the place and grounds from memory.
Upon this news getting out there,
Live on CP24 (Probably):
Toronto Fire Department responding to a multiple alarm fire at the “former” Ontario Science Centre.
Building looks to be fully involved with no chance of saving. No indication of source of the fire currently.
Even though the Science centre was falling apart before Ford government he didn't help by not offering funding to repair the building which the centre requested years ago.
Fuck Ford so much. The corrupt greedy bastard can walk off a cliff for all I care. So frustrating to see him chop our beautiful province up for his privileged friends and donors. I hope he steps on a sharpened lego every day for the rest of his life.
Yeah but the roof could collapse under too much snow. Since we’re expecting lots of snow over the next couple of weeks, it has to be closed immediately…. Certainly there is no time to consider our options…. /s
The issue is that when snow comes, you can’t have people in the building because of the dangers of collapse. So, if they replace the one tile that is in immediate danger of falling, they still have to replace the rest of the tiles before Oct 31st. If they stay open for the summer, and can’t fix the roof, the problem then becomes that they can’t safely remove the existing exhibits in time. So you risk losing everything inside these buildings, just because you want it to remain open for a couple more months.
Can’t travel through lakeshore because traffic is a nightmare anytime there’s an event.
It is the most asinine idea to move the science down to Ontario place where tweens and yuppies travel to expos and concerts all year round. It is unfathomable to prefer school buses and families to go through that urban path. Not to mention the city planners who screwed up the Strachan artery…
And to build fucking CONDOS over the science centre grounds means to absolutely destroy the natural forest that lives behind the property, which by the way has a gorgeous pond and trails. It’s a literal breath of fresh air over there, and you can often see salmon migrate through the rivers. Absolutely criminal.
Dougy Ford want's to hand that lovely ravine, protected since the 70's to his developer friends. My inner child is furiously shouting 'thief'. My adult self see's the clear benefit of the 'let it rot' strategy and "we'll pick it all up cheap".
Why are Ontarians complaining? You guys had a choice to vote 2 years ago and you all lazy fucks decided not to show up. This is exactly what Ontario wants. More privatization of all essential services.
I'm pro-Science Centre and think this is a ridiculously short-sighted and callous decision by DF. BUT, I always found the Science Centre to be hugely underwhelming in terms of the exhibits/quality of the actual content. If it does somehow get saved, I hope there's real investment not just into the physical infrastructure but also modernizing/upgrading the displays/tech etc.
It was amazing. In the 80’s and early 90’s. I’ve been to other cities eg. Pittsburgh, who have must smaller facilities, that didn’t require the massive upkeep, that are far better. The size and lack of people wanting to pay for great special or traveling exhibits lead to its downfall. I’m eager to see a reinvention elsewhere.
So many people in Ontario complain that we lose our treasures, but are unwilling to pay for them or even continue to visit them. “Public money” can’t be the answer to everything as it’s not unlimited.
LOL. No argument here. Government is inherently corrupt. The larger it gets, the more corrupt it gets.
It’s fun to see the federal government make claims of 200k new jobs, but 100k of them are government jobs. That’s actually a massive net loss for the tax base and artificially removing workers from the employment pool.
Have you been there recently? We go all the time and there is tonnes of stuff, and the rotating exhibit in the big main hall is always interesting and up to date. The Weston (gag) wing has a lot of Cool stuff to see and do. There was a lull in the noughts when it wasn't as good, but it's ramped up in the last few years to be pretty decent again. The kids area alone is massive and full of interesting science-y things for kids to interact with. My daughter loves it.
I do not support Ford, and I wish he would go away, and quit destroying our cities and province, but I don’t see what’s so great about that science centre building…
I’ve been to the science center, and was not impressed.
It’s also not easily accessible, and it is surrounded by filthy traffic-heavy stroads.
Can someone PLEASE explain to me why this is such an important building, in terms of architectural character?
Does it really deserve to be protected at all cost, or do we actually just want Doug Ford to stop making knee-jerk decisions about our city, without any apparent plan or vision for the future?
There's multiple issues at play but right now it's that the Ontario Science Centre is closing down unexpectedly with the new location only opening up in 2028. That's assuming that plans and construction of multiple huge projects all go according to schedule (so 2029? 2030?). Adam McNamara is trying to help keep the Ontario Science Center open for this summer, rather than closing down so unexpectedly.
My main issues with the new location is that it will be so small. [The new one will be 275,000 square feet, less than half the size of the current one which is 568,000 square feet. ](https://globalnews.ca/news/9632170/ontario-place-science-centre-announcement/)Some of the core attractions will be cut out and my understanding is that there won't be room for touring exhibits. Touring exhibits always help bring in people who have been multiple times. They also help keep the Science Centre feel less dated by having something brand new. Before they closed they had [Nature All Around Us developed by the Natural History Museum of Utah, in collaboration with the Science Museum of Minnesota](https://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/what-s-on/exhibitions/nature-all-around-us). My daughter loved the Bug Lab a few years ago which was developed by [Weta Workshop (the VFX show that famously worked on the Lord of the Rings) with the New Zealand's Te Papa museum](https://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/about-us/media-room/journey-through-an-incredible-world-of-awe-inspiring-insects-in-bug-lab-a-new-immersive-exhibition-at-ontario-science-centre).
The biggest crowds that Ontario Science Centre was in 2005 and 2009, when they had the Body Works exhibits, which was the exhibit that showed the inside of real people's bodies.
Also while you complain about traffic heavy roads, Lakeshore road isn't exactly much better. Especially with an expanded Amphitheatre (aka Budweiser Stage) which will be able to close off the lawns section so that the venue can run all year long together with the new spa.
Personally, the new Lakeshore location will be much closer for me but I like the current location better. However, once again personally location is minor issue for over the size issue.
Rob Ford doesn't want it open. He wants it down at the harbourfront. The only reason this building as been neglected so long and closed without thought of fixing it.
Good for him, but the cynical side of my brain is always going to doubt the good intentions of people who do this publicly. He could have contacted the premier's office directly instead of publicly posting on Twitter.
It feels similar to "I'm going to film myself helping the homeless and post it to social media so everyone knows how good of a person I am".
Adam McNamara is doing it publicly because he doesn't believe that the Doug Ford will take him up on it and would like to pressure him to do so. As he believes that Doug Ford wants to sell off the land to developers.
So far we have't heard anything from the PC party or Doug Ford about these offers, so maybe he is right.
Is Adam McNamara willing to spend the millions of dollars in potential liability insurance for a failing roof, in case anyone either dies or is seriously injured? $500,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to what it's going to be worth if someone dies, or really is seriously injured.
The report is mainly concerned with problems with the roof if there is a large build up of snow. The report recommended that the place would be safe until October 31, 2024 as we aren't likely to get snow before that.
Also the places in the roof that is bad enough to be critical are just 6 panels across the whole building. It's one panel in Building A, one panel in Building B and four panels in Building C. The $522,500 is to close off those sections and fix those parts of the roof. Anything under those particular 6 panels could be cleared away and roped off for the general public until they are repaired.
Why do people want to keep this out dated science center open? Take that money and build a modern science center ffs, that place was trash 10 years ago, and it's on Kennedy. Pacific mall is a more entertaining place to go.
[Adam McNamara in a later tweet says he would pay ALL of the emergency remediation in the report](https://twitter.com/adammcnamara/status/1804884342725845501). He is taking about [this report (note large PDF)](https://savesciencecentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/osc-building-a-to-c-raac-roof-panel-assessment-en-final-june-18-2024.pdf) but I'm not sure what that includes. However, he doesn't believe that Doug Ford will take him up on it because he points to Aspen Ridge Homes development owned by the De Gasperis family that is being built across the street from the Ontario Science Center. That they would likely want to buy any land available on the lot of the Ontario Science Centre.
That's it exactly: The DeGasperis family and their development. Doug screwed up their chances for Greenbelt cash so he's got to make it up somewhere else - the Ontario Science Centre is part of that "somewhere else". This is going to be an interesting game of chicken to watch. . . .
Daddy DeGasperi is on camera saying McGuinty and everyone on his side in the government “will pay” for whatever they denied him for. Someone making threats like that is dangerous, vindictive and motivated. This guy is a thug and Dough is his little bitch boy. lol I can’t believe I’m talking like this- but it’s sickeningly true.
With money, speech and clothing might change but the gang/mafia mentality is in their core. How many times we’ve seen illegal gains laundered in construction schemes.
It really just speaks to what many have been "feeling" or "seeing" the way this specific iteration of the provincial government is being run; it's being run as though an "organized crime syndicate" is really at the helm and not a political party.
Oh this De Gasperis family, that he stills owes for the green belt fumble? How incredibly blatant https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/greenbelt-land-swap-wake-report-1.6960488
It's cute that Doug thinks that the RCMP went away after he canceled the Greenbelt scam. Let him cook, he'll trip himself up just like his idiot brother did every time he thought nobody was watching.
If the RCMP actually holds any of these criminals liable, I’ll be absolutely shocked. Considering how much these ass holes are stealing from us, anything short of actual prison time will be meaningless.
Yeah we seem to be moving past the whole “holding politicians accountable” thing that the western world was so big on for the last three quarters of a century.
His idiot brother that got away with everything and died outside of prison?
Oh yes I’m sure the corrupt neo-fascist police will come down hard on the corrupt neo-fascist premiere lol
They have extensive hospital dedications at the Cortelucci Vaughan Hospital along with the Muzzo family. A whole wing named after them!
Hijacking the top comment to add that another ex-Shopify exec is also willing to put in up to $1-million to keep it open. Source: https://x.com/SabiVM/status/1804968545635238240?t=85C8qYBX5x5CLgQter-r2w&s=19
I love ex-Shopify execs all of a sudden
How much would "ALL of the emergency remediation in the report" cost?
There's two tables with two different budgets. Perhaps he means the first budget table labelled "RAAC Panel Remediation & Reassessment Costs" which is a total of $789,500. However, it's broken down by year starting in 2024 and going to 2029. If he is just suggesting the Ontario Science Center stays open for the summer of 2024, why would all those additional costs be needed? By the way, RAAC stands for Reinforced Autoclaved Aerated Concrete. The 2nd budget table labelled "Roof Assembly and RAAC Replacement" has a much higher cost in 2024 it recommends $7,196,480 for "Roof Maintenance & Roof Assembly & RAAC Replacement". Note that the report also says the following: >"Based on our review of exposed RAAC panels to date, and that shoring has been installed to support critical risk panels, it is our opinion that buildings A, B and C are currently safe for occupancy until October 31, 2024" Here's the [link again for the report PDF](https://savesciencecentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/osc-building-a-to-c-raac-roof-panel-assessment-en-final-june-18-2024.pdf) if anyone is interested reading it.
There’s one panel that needs to be replaced right now, and the area has to be barricaded off in case it fails. That’s why they closed immediately. But to make it through the winter, they’d need to do the $7 million in roof work before snow comes. Also, I’m pretty sure the report indicates they couldn’t check all the tiles, because many are covered/sealed, and they’d have to drill in to check each one. So there could be millions upon millions more worth of work to be done. Also, if they don’t fix the roof by October 31st, then it has to close. But that also means they won’t be able to remove everything. So yeah, you can pay to replace the one tile in immediate danger of failing, but then you still have the issue of whether to begin removing everything, or trying to replace the roof before the deadline. So they couldn’t stay open for the summer, anyways.
Everyone needs to look at the report Then look at the floor plans The only problem areas are on level 1 and 2 The great Hall, the Imperial oil auditorium and the rear of the entrance building. The majority of the lower building wasn't built with those panels. The areas that were are in relatively good shape and don't require immediate intervention Level 3 of the pods either has a story above it or has a slab concrete roof. They could restrict access to the problem areas and wouldn't even have to close an exhibit Which isn't surprising because those areas have had leaks for years so they haven't been using them Those areas had been closed off to guests for a while, presumably due to the leaks The millions of dollars being offered is more than enough do keep it open without having to close some of those spaces
Jesus. I’m so glad I got to go one last time with my kid’s field trip last month! 😢
There's six panels in the critical risk category across the three buildings, and all panels in both high and critical (4%) need to be replaced or remediated by winter to be safe. That's all in the 522k (though that number is only construction costs, full cost would still be under a million).
Agreed. And not just the cost surrounding this, but all the Ford fumbling and controversies
of course they do. but dofo is soooo honest . . .
Luckily the city owns the land, not the province. I don't think Chow would let it go easily
I'm sure corporations would have lined up to help save the roof too for publicity/naming rights, why wasn't this even attempted? I don't care if it's got a corporate sponsorship, better than going under.
Because it doesn’t matter. It’s already sold to someone else probably
All the more reason to push back. Let Doug face the wrath of his corporate owners thanks to the rage of his constituents.
I thought the city owned the land? I could be wrong though
The City owns the land and leased it to the Province, but the City is also a creature of the Province so ultimately Doug can do whatever he wants (and has already shown his willingness to do whatever he wants).
One running theme I see is most people really underestimate how much power is in the hands of the provincial government instead of the municipal or the federal. For instance I never see anyone blaming the Ford government for bringing in international students even though the education system is under the province's control. I still got push back when I mentioned it as in the person's mind somehow the federal government decided to bring in those students.
Every visa is issued by the Feds...they have complete control over every person entering Canada legally.
The Feds issue student visas to individuals the Provincial government has deemed eligible to study at an institution that is licensed and overseen by the Provincial government. Are you suggesting that the Federal government take over education?
I just deleted my response because yours is so much more succinct and to the point. But yeah it's indeed odd the same people who hated the Trudeau government using its power now like the same federal government stepping over the boundary. That's not how it's supposed to work, ideally anyway. The universities and colleges are regulated by the provincial ministries and they have their own mandate and goals. If the provinces want to bring in more international students, it should be their own call and the provincial voters should decide on the consequences, especially since the same provincial government is also responsible for related policies in housing and healthcare as well. To be fair everyone has been blaming the federal government for the international students so I suppose something had to be done. Just look at that response. But I think it's the Trudeau government pandering and not a good thing.
There was a great, in-depth comment on another reddit post I saw a few months ago (and I wish I had saved it) that went into a deep-dive on how this issue has been building since the 60's or 70's and how Canadian Universities and Colleges were forced to switch to finding alternative sources of funding (as the government didn't want to subsidize education to the extent it had been or something) and thus started bringing in more and more international students. Education may be the responsibility of the provincial governments but the federal government has played a big part in how we've gotten here IIRC.
The federal government can set limits on the total number of students allowed into the country. That's not an "oh! the provinces!" thing. The provinces do hold some responsiblity for the quality of the students coming in, and *all* the responsibility for giving their recognition to diploma mills as upstanding education institutions.
That's is my view of it as well. Ford could bitch and moan all he wants in an attempt to bring the whole world into Ontario but the feds have the final say on it, they're basically enabling him.
Yes. Lot's of immigration consultants appear triggered by this.
It’s a bit of an exaggeration to say he can do whatever he wants. There are laws on the books that govern municipalities and their powers. Doug can’t just go unilaterally changing laws and Olivia has also said she’s not afraid to take the province to court.
Google Mulroney & Ontario Line & Environmental Laws
Ford already has changed municipalities and municipal powers, he can certainly do it again. There’s also the “not withstanding” clause he seems all to eager to use.
But it wasn’t exactly easy to do. His power is not unchecked. He can’t just unilaterally change the laws, he needs to get a bill through the house and even then the courts can shut it down. When he tried to use the notwithstanding clause in 2018 it went all the way to the Supreme Court.
He didn’t use it in 2018, he threatened to use it. The Supreme Court would be pretty much useless if a province uses the not withstanding clause, that’s kind of the point of it.
That's not entirely true - the Supreme Court would validate whether the use of the clause by the province was correct and overturn it if not.
Of course, but I think you're overestimating the ability of the Court to intervene here. Unless the use of the notwithstanding clause impinges on other rights guaranteed by the Constitution, it's going to be tricky to win this case. It's already been used for much more egregious violations of civil rights than taking away a (much beloved) science museum.
It is not entirely unchecked, but especially if it is something that a law has already given the government regulation-making authority over, it is pretty close to it. One of the things I learned when I worked in the Ontario government was that the government's lawyers often give a formal opinion as to the legality of any proposed act or regulation. But cabinet doesn't have to abide by its lawyers' opinion! And can pass a regulation that the lawyers refused to sign off on! And because of solicitor-client privilege (which is ridiculous in the context of the government, e.g. the AG & the SNC Lavalin scandal) nobody will ever know, including any citizen who may eventually try to take the government to court over its potentially-illegal law
Toronto exists at the whim of the province. If Doug Ford WANTED to he could dissolve the city of Toronto. No idea what that would look like, but he has the power to do it.
Chow has been suspiciously friendly to Ford and his handlers. At first I thought she was playing nice but it's getting weird now I don't trust her.
The province has all the power. Sometimes it's better to gently guide power than stand directly against it.
She's been gently gliding things more than Tory ever did
Science Centre Homes by Aspen Ridge
The science centre already has good sponsors but pretty sure they're just as surprised as the public are with the news. The only way I see someone saving it would be the developers giving up the chance to take the science centre land.
because the wrong people get paid in that scenario
Sadly I worked for the fundraising team at the centre for a few years. There was no lineup of corporate or individual major gift support for the centre ever.
Ford, under the spiritual guidance of Mike Harris, has shown again and again how he is willing to sell off the assets of the province for short term gain. Greenbelt. Ontario Place. Science Centre. He is destroying the future of the province to appease his corporate handlers.
Which is why they shut it down immediately. They don't want solutions
Exactly. If you're intent on moving anyway, it's just good money after bad. But I wish they weren't moving.
That's what I'm saying! Why haven't they been hosting fundraisers for this project for years?
Because even if you raise 25M for the roof you still have somewhere between 147.5M (2017) and 370M (2023) in other deferred maintenance. The roof wasn't even on the list in the original report.
Sad but true. Ford could and should do that, but he doesn't want to.
You would think Douggie and friends would be all for such private largesse to keep a public good going. But I bet that 500+k is a drop in the bucket compared to what ever kickback they're getting from whomever they promised the land to.
Ford is definitely getting kickbacks from his developer buddies. The ELRT will open soon and that land will skyrocket in value. A big condo or a shopping center will be a lucrative development. I personally believe he's also testing the waters, seeing what he can get away with. Next he'll close Riverdale Farm or Centerville Amusement Park for big privatized developments. The first Ford (thankfully he can do no harm) wanted to build a bunch of garbage on the island and on the port lands.
First time I seen someone else mention the ELRT!! It’s been intentionally held up!
Someone mentioned in another thread the Science Centre should be moved because it's hard to get to, I asked why it's being moved when it's about to become a new transit hub with two transit lines meeting there. The answer was the subway will take 10 more years and the downtown is still the better location regardless because everything else is already there. As incorrect and inscrutable as that answer was, that kind of mindset did make me wonder if Ford and his government are just really obsessed with this idea of building out a cluster of attractions downtown, like really really in love with that idea and I'm not even making an accusation of corruption here.
> Someone mentioned in another thread the Science Centre should be moved because it's hard to get to, I asked why it's being moved when it's about to become a new transit hub with two transit lines meeting there. The answer was the subway will take 10 more years and the downtown is still the better location regardless because everything else is already there. This is so stupid. What transit takes you to Ontario Place? Wouldn't the closest be walking from the top of Exhibition Place?
Nothing downtown is easy to get to. Every time there is a Jay's game or concert it takes forever to get in or out.
I don’t agree with anything Doug Ford does but our downtown pales in comparison to cities like Tokyo/NYC/Vegas/LA/London/Paris in terms of fun touristy stuff to do so if he just came out and said he wanted a stronger tourist trap in the core then I wouldn’t be mad sadly I think it’s more likely he’s corrupt and bad at hiding it
The sad part is, there's no reason at all it couldn't be both. Keep the original going, build a satellite one for 1-2 exhibits that rotate back and forth, it keeps everyone happy. Well, except DoFo's developer buddies who want the land of course.
While I think our downtown is relatively boring, I also don't think the science center is necessarily a tourist attraction. Having more areas for live performances, fairs, exhibitions, maybe build another museum or two imo would prob be better.
It's definitely not. There's always a science centre wherever we travel. We never go to it. Even with a kid now, it's sort of "we have science centre at home". Although...now we don't...
You can have science centers that are tourist attractions. We'll always take our kids to the Chicago one. But they need to be pretty exceptional, and I don't think Ontario is willing to invest to that level.
As a kid I loved the OSC, never been to one in a different city though
You know what would be a great model for Toronto's waterfront? Chicago - a very similar city in a lot of ways. Chicago has mandated that everything along Lake Michigan should be publicly owned and it's paid off tremendously. The biggest tourist attraction is a sculpture in a public park near the waterfront, it hosts world class museums, amazing biking and walking trails, great playgrounds, skating paths, outdoor rock climbing, zoos, and several popular beaches. I don't see any way that selling it off to the highest bidder could possibly result in a better outcome.
I agree with you that our downtown pales when compared to the cities you mentioned. Sadly, our downtown just doesn’t have the infrastructure to handle having a whole bunch of attractions “next” to each other. In my opinion, the OSC is actually perfectly situated, particularly once the ELRT opens. It’s not too far from downtown and will be easily accessible once the ELRT opens. It’s also near other tourist attractions (like the Aga khan museum) which, for tourist planning purposes, allows folks to go to 2 attractions easily and fill up a day (I would argue otherwise that the museum and the OSC are not all day visits but can be done in half a day). Also, (and I don’t know if this has changed), but when I was growing up schools always had field trips to the OSC. It was a great learning experience. If the OSC is moved downtown, that makes it terribly difficult for schools to access and only adds to traffic congestion. There are benefits to having attractions/museums outside of the core - but still very accessible to the core - to the surrounding neighborhoods. It creates additional employment opportunities and, quite frankly, supports funding for otherwise ignored communities for revitalizing their neighborhoods as the optics for tourists become an important factor for the city as well. None of this changes the fact that a small scale educational/science-focused attraction can still be built downtown. It doesn’t require shutting down the existing OSC. Went on a bit of a rant, hope I got my points across cohesively!
I always kind of liked that about Toronto. Downtown was just where people lived and worked. If you wanted tourism you go to Niagara.
As a New York tourist, driving to Niagara is a fun trip. Driving to the Ontario science center isn't too bad. Driving into Toronto? NOPE.
And that's how we like it!
Either you're rich or homeless. Everyone else thinks the hours long commute is awful, and the economic island you inhabit isn't sustainable, and the loss of family centric museums is a travesty to future generations.
It goes back to the goals that the Ontario Liberals & John Tory set for Ontario Place back in 2012 which included an education component to it. In the plans that were submitted by the province to the city of Toronto back in November 2022, the province had included a ["science-based destination" in which the Ontario Science Centre would build some new science exhibits](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/). Basically we originally were going to get a small Ontario Science Centre expansion at Ontario Place. Then somebody in the PC party realized instead of the small expansion and paying for new exhibits, they could close down the original and move the existing exhibits.
And as a bonus, they can sell off the existing land to private developers for tons of under the table kickbacks! huzzah!
Of course, if there was anything genuinely well-meaning here, the plan would be refurbish the OG OSC and add a second complex by Ontario Place (or, perhaps, just about anywhere). The current OSC has fewer attractions than it did in the 90s and the GTA’s population has long needed that kind of investment. But what do you expect from PCs from Harris on?
>The current OSC has fewer attractions than it did in the 90s and the GTA’s population has long needed that kind of investment Also even now they've had to run a shuttle service for about a year now from the front section down to the bottom section where you actually enter now (right by the metal ball hair raising exhibit) due to the front half being under Reno's I think? (it was mostly escalators and hallways)...so even when you go there now there is an extra headache on busy days to wait to pile aboard a like 12 seater shuttle bus (of which there MIGHT be two?) to trundle down the hill to the back of the OSC just to get in....repeat this line up on your way out. Source\~I have a membership and we go often...or we did.
The shuttles are apparently because they didn’t maintain the bridge section properly either. It must have been in bad shape or soon to be in bad shape in 2018, but Doug Ford’s response has been to do nothing but look at ways of capitalizing on the land.
Seems so. I don't hate the shuttle, but on busy days it's a much longer wait on both ends.
Nah, take some of that tinfoil off. Too many people are working on the ELRT for that kind of conspiracy to hold water (pun intended, because several of the stations are probably having flooding issues). The ELRT has been held up by good ol bad planning and general incompetence.
The announcement that the Downtown Relief Line would now be the Ontario Line & extend up to the Ontario Science Centre also came *literally a month* after the DeGasperis bought 60 acres of land across the street from the Science Centre.
Doug Ford campaigning to be Premier: "I can't be bought." He couldn't be bought because he was *already owned.*
That definitely doesn't look good, but Transit City would have seen a line transfer from Pape into the Don Mills LRT, while south of Pape would have been a subway. That's not a good idea, even ignoring the fact that there is a significant wealth disparity between the sides of Danforth. Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park have the same transit line as Riverdale and Leslieville.
Riverdale and Centreville are City-owned.
Probably the only reason they're still standing
Meh, Doug has already shown that he cares not for the municipal layer and is happy to assert dominion over city hall. He'll notwithstanding-clause that shit in a heartbeat if someone offers him enough kickbacks.
Fucking with the island in the name of development would be massively controversial (and probably hugely expensive from an infrastructure perspective to support much more population than it has now). Riverdale maaaaaybe.
The land the science centre is in is owned by the city too. The province has a lease with the city, but the city owns it.,
The problem with this line of thinking is that in a reasonable world this would stop him...but we don't live in that world and legally the city itself exists at the whim of the province, as such Ford can do whatever he wants if he pushes hard enough. We are finding out how full of holes our levels of govt are and how helpless the municipal levels can be if the province is run by a vengeful dickhead.
I didn’t know this. I knew that some of the ravine land is leased from TRCA but doubt that there is much interest to build on that.
All this corruption seems so blatant. How is this not being looked into by the RCMP or whoever would be responsible for this type of thing.
Because it turns out that "don't be ridiculously corrupt" was actually a social contract rather than a legal one. Or more accurately, it's always been like this, and easier access to information has just made it harder to hide.
[RCMP investigating Ontario government's plan to open Greenbelt land for development | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rcmp-criminal-investigation-ford-greenbelt-1.6991595)
Is there no way to have Ford voted out or forcefully resign? How can one get away with so much blatant corruption (genuine question). I swear premiers before would not be able to get away with so much
>I swear premiers before would not be able to get away with so much Because they had a modicum of respect for the office. Hell, the NWS clause was supposed to be a third rail of politics...if you feel the need to use it and the public disagreed, your political career was toast in the next election. Even Mike Harris got turfed after his scandals that make the Grenebelt look like child's play...but in the post-Trump era of politics, Ford's populist shit and pushing for every "social" boundary has ruined us. In a normal world the voting public would see the corruption, and want someone else at the Helm and the polls would reflect that....but now we live in a tribalistic social media hellhole where the cons have CONVINCED their voters that the corruption isn't so bad, and the Liberals and NDP would DESTROY everything.
Maybe get him hooked on crack
I was rootin for the bee that he swallowed
Just like how the story of the sliver of land that was quietly removed from the Greenbelt: http://globalnews.ca/news/10019849/ford-friendly-union-greenbelt-land-removed/ It's so blatantly corrupt - how does an executive assistant come to own such a parcel of land? Then, nothing comes of the story. Meanwhile, if you look at the spokeslady for Liuna, she's busy being a mouthpiece for the conservative party and a certain foreign state...
I hope the mainstream media picks this up and runs with this. Ford's nonsense is starting to work on the politically unengaged. I am already seeing commentary in my social circle about how poor healthcare is if it's free. The strategy is working. Cut funding to something you want to kill and just have a small amount of patience. We, as an electorate, are not holding the government to account
ONDP has been going hard with the FOI requests which is why we've gotten all this corruption coverage around Ontario place and the greenbelt. I'm sure we'll have plenty more revelations around this once the FOI requests are processed!
They seem to be the only ones that give a rats ass about anything going on yet they don't exist to many of the electorate and they'd rather flop back and forth between red and blue. I find it very disheartening and I hope it changes some day at the provincial and federal levels.
I feel bad for the underpaid government workers who have to deal with all the FOI requests tomorrow. The science centre news came out so late on Friday afternoon so many people are going to be requesting first thing tomorrow morning
Each ministry has it's own dedicated FOI department who do it all day, don't worry about them!
Unfortunately it feels like their name isn't being attached to it. Ask a random person about how the greenbelt scandal got exposed and they'll probably think it all just materialized out of thin air.
Do you have sources/links to the ONDP sending out FOI requests on this? I live in a by-election area that's going to the polls later today. I was on the fence with NDP, but if that's true, I'm convinced.
I could post links, but searching 'ONDP' and 'FOI' will give you results for some press releases of theirs which outline which documents they've been sharing via the FOI requests. Most of them have been around the Greenbelt, including pushing forward once one request revealed how much business was conducted on private phones and emails, but I believe there was one or two FOI requests made to Infrastructure Ontario which revealed the cost and bidding for the Therme/LiveNation parking garage. I'm actually impressed by the ONDP right now, they've been really aggressive in ways I wish were more visible to the general public. Their social media game is on point too, whoever the staffer is running their tiktok has cracked the code on youth appeal, because my previously politically disengaged teenage nephew organically stumbled on it and has been really thoughtfully concerned about the state of politics in the province since. I've had a few conversations with him and was really impressed by his understanding, especially at that age. Those tiktoks do a great job of explaining how issues we see daily are a result of policy decisions, and what platform points are intended to address it and it's inspired him to do more research on his own and not take what politicians say at face value. If you're on the fence, keep a sharper eye on what the ONDP is doing these days. Even a lot of articles that have big reveals around these scandals will mention who the FOI request was from and it's often either ONDP or other *amazing* grassroots activist groups, many of which have good working relationships & mutual support with the ONDP.
I was at the rally yesterday and was really impressed by Marit Styles' speech
Thank you for the thorough reply!
We need to start pointing those idiot friends to American anecdotes about trying to get insurance to cover cancers treatments and other bureaucratic horrors. [Rob Delaney has spoken at length](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/04/american-nhs-vote-boris-johnson-tories) about this while trying to convince Brits to support the equally underfunded NHS.
>I hope the mainstream media picks this up and runs with this. The [Toronto Star has an article on Sabina Vohra-Miller](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/this-family-is-offering-1-million-to-help-fix-the-ontario-science-centre-will-doug/article_c56713ae-323e-11ef-9349-633f79a612ac.html) who is also formerly from Shopify who offered $1 million to keep the Ontario Science Centre open. [She had several other people from Shopify offer up money as well with one saying they would donate $100,000](https://twitter.com/SabiVM/status/1804968545635238240).
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This whole situation comically villainous. I grew up in the science centre and have never been to anywhere else like it. It’s part of Toronto and Canada’s identity. What’s with old fat premiers ruining everything? Recently graduated from McGill where Legault basically destroyed McGill’s future. Now Ford chooses to shut down the science centre in the most disgraceful way imaginable. Rip science centre the future is not bright.
> I grew up in the science centre you were the feral child who lived in the rainforest exhibit?
Interesting response
Too bad we can't trade McGill for the French university near Great Lakes Brewing's downtown location.
He’s calling Doug Fraud’s bluff. Now, either Fraud accepts the help and the center stays, or it’s clear he’s the corrupt piece of crap we all know he is.
It really speaks to how useless & inept our government is and how mishandled our tax money has been when a Millionaire has to try stepping in to save a public institution that the government wants to execute via political guillotine for no fucking reason. The scandal shouldn't merely be the Science Centre closing. The scandal should be that the government mishandled the entire thing so fucking badly that their own major responsibility got to this point, ignored maintenance, and was happy to not fix a giant safety hazard (if the new report is true at least, which I don't quite believe). What the fuck are we paying taxes for if Ford is just gonna use our taxes to pay for a fucking Spa and line his pockets? The amount of corrupt mismanagement happening in the open by the PCs is so laughably blatant that it would be funny if we weren't stupid enough to give them 2 majorities.
>The scandal should be that the government mishandled the entire thing so fucking badly that their own major responsibility got to this point, ignored maintenance, and was happy to not fix a giant safety hazard it's not a "mishandling" if that was the plan all along... let it rot and hand it over to your crook buddies...
2 majorities... so far
I'm glad someone with money is trying to step up for this but they shouldn't have had to in the first place.
I thought the land was 98year lease that could only be used for science center or something
Yeah, but in Canada, municipalities are "creatures of the province". The province could take over that land and sell it. I'm sure Doug Ford and the PC party will point to the fact that we are in a housing crisis to justify why the land needs to be sold.
Sure build more homes in the floodplain.
Hey, no one said the houses have to be built WELL. Shifting foundations is the purchaser's problem! After developers make a tidy profit of course.
One way to make sure this doesnt happen is lobby insurance companies not to insure if built in the floodplain. Now the properties aren't mortgage able.
I think it's possible to build some condos or other housing on the parking lot and the front part of level one of the Ontario Science Centre. I think anything beyond the bridge on level 1, which had been closed down recently would be problematic.
The city already has a project in place to build housing in the parking lots. The project stated in 2019 https://createto.ca/projects/770-don-mills
I wondered about it and that sounds reasonable enough. Is there any document with some detail on this?
If you didn't see the other reply, someone else pointed out that [some of the parking lots for the Ontario Science Centre are already being developed into condos](https://createto.ca/projects/770-don-mills). The Toronto and Region Conservation Athority put out a press release in April 2023 pointing out the issues of building on the ravine and floodplains associated with the West Don River. [They have some photos showing how difficult it would be to bulid on it](https://trca.ca/news/ontario-science-centre/). The reason that the Ontario Science Centre is so spread out with different levels with bridges and escalators because of the ravine and floodplains.
All I'm hearing is that we can, in fact, seize the 407 back from the worthless parasites we sold it to.
We absolutely could. But that doesn't allow Conservative politicians to get paid, so it doesn't happen.
Well CPP investments own ~50%
CPP does pretty well so if one investment went bad because Ontario shredded the 407 contract then I'm ok with that.
From what I understand, it's even easier than that....they are in debt to the province, and Ford could call the debt off and in exchange make the 407 allow trucks and industry vehicles and whatnot to use it for free, which would ease traffic on the other east west routes...
What? We'd be giving them the highway for even less than they agreed to pay for it in exchange for a single concession.
The process to expropriate land under the exproporation act is lengthy and a recipe for political suicide. And when Doug said they were prepared to use the act to expropriate land for Ontario place Olivia said she wasn’t afraid to take the province to court. The city already has plans to build housing on the property so needing the land because of the housing crisis isn’t a strong argument.
Funny how he was willing to use the act for a spa but not for useful infrastructure that would benefit almost everyone.
That's awesome. Curious what excuse Ford will come up with against it.
He won't bother coming up with an excuse. He'll just wholesale ignore it.
It’s only 500k. ???????? Fuck this government so much what a travesty
Moving the Science Centre means less services and support to an already low income neighborhood
Doug Ford is prepared to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers money for a parking structure for a private firm but not for a public facility. Just another example of taxpayer money going to the PRIVATIZATION.
He's also giving $250 mil to beer companies so we can sell beer in convenience stores one year early. Trash
Wouldn't it be funny if a go fund were set up to save the Science centre so we can truly see things for what they are?
It’s nice these rich people are stepping up to try and help out, but how depressing is it that we only get to keep these major public entities if rich people deem them worthy enough to be saved.
Well, it was the donations of rich people that made them possible in the first place. The science centre survived on one particular benefactor over the years and wasn’t ever self sufficient.
I hear ya. I just meant public entities and services in general. Healthcare, public education, the TTC. If rich people don’t use it, it doesn’t get funded properly.
And certain RE developers will give doug ford double the whammy to keep Science Centre Closed. It's a daylight corruption we are seeing and Dougie is pretty comfortable doing it
I wonder what that last $500 is for. You got have a nice new velvet rope for people to line up
Have not lived there for some time but when my kids were little I had a family pass and would go every other week. That place and the zoo were the best bang for your buck with little kids. I feel like I could draw the place and grounds from memory.
We have a membership and we go a lot and our kids absolutely have a blast there every time!
"Do you mind? We're trying to pull a heist." Doug Ford, probably.
Upon this news getting out there, Live on CP24 (Probably): Toronto Fire Department responding to a multiple alarm fire at the “former” Ontario Science Centre. Building looks to be fully involved with no chance of saving. No indication of source of the fire currently.
Even though the Science centre was falling apart before Ford government he didn't help by not offering funding to repair the building which the centre requested years ago.
[Sign the letter to your MP & Ford !](https://act.newmode.net/action/evidence-democracy/save-ontarios-science-centre)
Fuck Ford so much. The corrupt greedy bastard can walk off a cliff for all I care. So frustrating to see him chop our beautiful province up for his privileged friends and donors. I hope he steps on a sharpened lego every day for the rest of his life.
A lot of people prob got laid off too :-(
Yeah but the roof could collapse under too much snow. Since we’re expecting lots of snow over the next couple of weeks, it has to be closed immediately…. Certainly there is no time to consider our options…. /s
The issue is that when snow comes, you can’t have people in the building because of the dangers of collapse. So, if they replace the one tile that is in immediate danger of falling, they still have to replace the rest of the tiles before Oct 31st. If they stay open for the summer, and can’t fix the roof, the problem then becomes that they can’t safely remove the existing exhibits in time. So you risk losing everything inside these buildings, just because you want it to remain open for a couple more months.
Ah. Ok. My initial impression was that “things happen very quickly when they’re things that Doug Ford wants to happen….”
Can’t travel through lakeshore because traffic is a nightmare anytime there’s an event. It is the most asinine idea to move the science down to Ontario place where tweens and yuppies travel to expos and concerts all year round. It is unfathomable to prefer school buses and families to go through that urban path. Not to mention the city planners who screwed up the Strachan artery… And to build fucking CONDOS over the science centre grounds means to absolutely destroy the natural forest that lives behind the property, which by the way has a gorgeous pond and trails. It’s a literal breath of fresh air over there, and you can often see salmon migrate through the rivers. Absolutely criminal.
[удалено]
Please write the premier. Get anyone else you know to write, especially if you have a Conservative MPP.
What a star !
Ford and his ilk are probably happy the Science Centre is closed
Dougy Ford want's to hand that lovely ravine, protected since the 70's to his developer friends. My inner child is furiously shouting 'thief'. My adult self see's the clear benefit of the 'let it rot' strategy and "we'll pick it all up cheap".
Why are Ontarians complaining? You guys had a choice to vote 2 years ago and you all lazy fucks decided not to show up. This is exactly what Ontario wants. More privatization of all essential services.
I'm pro-Science Centre and think this is a ridiculously short-sighted and callous decision by DF. BUT, I always found the Science Centre to be hugely underwhelming in terms of the exhibits/quality of the actual content. If it does somehow get saved, I hope there's real investment not just into the physical infrastructure but also modernizing/upgrading the displays/tech etc.
I loved it as a kid... All museums do need updating though
It was amazing. In the 80’s and early 90’s. I’ve been to other cities eg. Pittsburgh, who have must smaller facilities, that didn’t require the massive upkeep, that are far better. The size and lack of people wanting to pay for great special or traveling exhibits lead to its downfall. I’m eager to see a reinvention elsewhere. So many people in Ontario complain that we lose our treasures, but are unwilling to pay for them or even continue to visit them. “Public money” can’t be the answer to everything as it’s not unlimited.
I'd agree except our public money is being used in atrocious ways.
LOL. No argument here. Government is inherently corrupt. The larger it gets, the more corrupt it gets. It’s fun to see the federal government make claims of 200k new jobs, but 100k of them are government jobs. That’s actually a massive net loss for the tax base and artificially removing workers from the employment pool.
Have you been there recently? We go all the time and there is tonnes of stuff, and the rotating exhibit in the big main hall is always interesting and up to date. The Weston (gag) wing has a lot of Cool stuff to see and do. There was a lull in the noughts when it wasn't as good, but it's ramped up in the last few years to be pretty decent again. The kids area alone is massive and full of interesting science-y things for kids to interact with. My daughter loves it.
Not in about three years
I do not support Ford, and I wish he would go away, and quit destroying our cities and province, but I don’t see what’s so great about that science centre building… I’ve been to the science center, and was not impressed. It’s also not easily accessible, and it is surrounded by filthy traffic-heavy stroads. Can someone PLEASE explain to me why this is such an important building, in terms of architectural character? Does it really deserve to be protected at all cost, or do we actually just want Doug Ford to stop making knee-jerk decisions about our city, without any apparent plan or vision for the future?
There's multiple issues at play but right now it's that the Ontario Science Centre is closing down unexpectedly with the new location only opening up in 2028. That's assuming that plans and construction of multiple huge projects all go according to schedule (so 2029? 2030?). Adam McNamara is trying to help keep the Ontario Science Center open for this summer, rather than closing down so unexpectedly. My main issues with the new location is that it will be so small. [The new one will be 275,000 square feet, less than half the size of the current one which is 568,000 square feet. ](https://globalnews.ca/news/9632170/ontario-place-science-centre-announcement/)Some of the core attractions will be cut out and my understanding is that there won't be room for touring exhibits. Touring exhibits always help bring in people who have been multiple times. They also help keep the Science Centre feel less dated by having something brand new. Before they closed they had [Nature All Around Us developed by the Natural History Museum of Utah, in collaboration with the Science Museum of Minnesota](https://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/what-s-on/exhibitions/nature-all-around-us). My daughter loved the Bug Lab a few years ago which was developed by [Weta Workshop (the VFX show that famously worked on the Lord of the Rings) with the New Zealand's Te Papa museum](https://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/about-us/media-room/journey-through-an-incredible-world-of-awe-inspiring-insects-in-bug-lab-a-new-immersive-exhibition-at-ontario-science-centre). The biggest crowds that Ontario Science Centre was in 2005 and 2009, when they had the Body Works exhibits, which was the exhibit that showed the inside of real people's bodies. Also while you complain about traffic heavy roads, Lakeshore road isn't exactly much better. Especially with an expanded Amphitheatre (aka Budweiser Stage) which will be able to close off the lawns section so that the venue can run all year long together with the new spa. Personally, the new Lakeshore location will be much closer for me but I like the current location better. However, once again personally location is minor issue for over the size issue.
What a lege
It’s just the cost of 1 house. Surly an MP can spare 1 of their thousands of rental homes?
Rob Ford doesn't want it open. He wants it down at the harbourfront. The only reason this building as been neglected so long and closed without thought of fixing it.
How about snow blowing the roof after each snowfall next winter and keeping the place open.
Fuck Doug Ford and his corruption
Ford is despicable
Why do people keep voting for this guy. Unbelievable.
Good for him, but the cynical side of my brain is always going to doubt the good intentions of people who do this publicly. He could have contacted the premier's office directly instead of publicly posting on Twitter. It feels similar to "I'm going to film myself helping the homeless and post it to social media so everyone knows how good of a person I am".
Adam McNamara is doing it publicly because he doesn't believe that the Doug Ford will take him up on it and would like to pressure him to do so. As he believes that Doug Ford wants to sell off the land to developers. So far we have't heard anything from the PC party or Doug Ford about these offers, so maybe he is right.
Well yeah, there’s no incentive for our elected officials to do things that benefit their constituents.
This is exactly it.
Is Adam McNamara willing to spend the millions of dollars in potential liability insurance for a failing roof, in case anyone either dies or is seriously injured? $500,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to what it's going to be worth if someone dies, or really is seriously injured.
Doug shorted our healthcare by a billion and still managed to add a billion to the deficit. You helped him.
The report is mainly concerned with problems with the roof if there is a large build up of snow. The report recommended that the place would be safe until October 31, 2024 as we aren't likely to get snow before that. Also the places in the roof that is bad enough to be critical are just 6 panels across the whole building. It's one panel in Building A, one panel in Building B and four panels in Building C. The $522,500 is to close off those sections and fix those parts of the roof. Anything under those particular 6 panels could be cleared away and roped off for the general public until they are repaired.
Has $500k to drop on this, but is whining about capital gains taxes.
Go for it. Project cost about $40M
Why do people want to keep this out dated science center open? Take that money and build a modern science center ffs, that place was trash 10 years ago, and it's on Kennedy. Pacific mall is a more entertaining place to go.