Get these fuckers off the sidewalks. The number of goddamn e-bikes that I see cruising on the sidewalk on Davenport rd, which has a goddamn bike lane, is way too high.
We need to... ban bikes... from the bike lanes...
Now I ride all sorts of bikes, and an ebike is one of them. Super convenient when I need to haul a fuckload of shit a long distance.
I don't think it was me since I rode on Bloor yesterday, and waited for clear spaces to pass people, but I think the problem is different from what you identify.
#Bike lanes need to be larger to allow passing.
As it is now, even on any sort of bike it is difficult to pass anyone in the bike line due to how narrow they are.
Anyway, the no bell thing is not cool, but what do you expect from food delivery folks.
That’s why I like Montreals bike lanes, more common to see bi-directional bike lanes on the same side of the street, might be more dangerous for collisions but having room to pass when safe is always nice.
A single large bi-directional bike lane certainly seems to make more sense, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were worse than uni-directional lanes.
Bloore to Davisville
Edit: There must be a hater in this thread downvoting straight up facts.
[Bloor - facing north](https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6704175,-79.3868571,3a,90y,345.48h,88.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxjBqzEI2wcc17IL2SQDhSA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DxjBqzEI2wcc17IL2SQDhSA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D143.7024%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu)
[Davisville - facing south](https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6981657,-79.396639,3a,75y,165.41h,91.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTeiQ5bgtlXFma5SkOy57CQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu)
Perhaps worded a bit strongly as I'm still a bit heated, but I'm inclined to continue to say that bikes that are wholly used via a throttle shouldn't be in the bike lane. It's a bike by name only at that point.
One could argue semantics, but these bikes in my experience are much more often travelling at speeds closer to cars than other bikes. They don't travel with the flow of traffic, but usually against it speed wise.
I'd be happy if they decided to share the lane safely, ring a bell, wait for an opening and then go. But I've yet to come across any of them doing so. Even in the presence of a small child, you'd think...
Pedal assist vs throttle e-bike is a fair distinction - EMMOs/electric moped generally should be on the street only. Sucks there’s nobody that would ever considering enforcing these rules though.
The throttle-only ones [aren't allowed in bike lanes](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-and-the-law/electric-bicycles-e-bikes-e-scooters/)
First off, I'm sorry you had an interaction with some asshole. Just because I try not to be an asshole doesn't mean everyone out there isn't, so I can take the hate if you want.
Funnily enough though, yesterday on my cargo run I came across two people with kids, one south of St Clair going up the hill who kept looking back to see if I was going to do something stupid (I guess). I just shouted (in what I hope was a friendly tone) "don't worry, I'm in no hurry" and the other one I just took the lane on Yonge south of Merton.
Remember though, we have a common enemy, inattentive drivers. Yesterday I had two run ins with shitty uber eats riders, but six near misses with cars just pulling out without looking. Even funnier I chatted for a moment with a guy at Yonge and Bloor about his helmet cam, and he said "better to have it an not need it" only for me to have to e-stop a minute later because some dunce pulled out of a side street. He also vented about e-bike riders, but "no no no, not you, you know" lol.
tbf, ebikes travel at a speed that is not expected of something which is too be human powered in a "protected" lane.
i understand they have a place, and quite frankly i think it's the lane with vehicles.
i ride a fixed gear bikes and often take the live lane as it's way safer than our narrow bike lanes being utilized by large motor assisted "bicycles". (i rarely see them being cycled though, unless it's the battery).
Not to make perfection the enemy of good, but protected bike lanes need to always be stacked on the same side to allow for passing. Also makes it easier to turn around if you miss your turn
Do head on collisions happen when traffic moves in opposite directions in close proximity to one another? Yes, this is a statistical certainty.
It isn't about *me.*
We do ban bikes from bike lanes. Ag least certain types. Only pedal assist bikes are allowed on cyclepaths like the Yonge/Bloor street paths. Throttled “bikes” aren’t supposed to be there. Similarly “super pedalics” which don’t limit electric assist to under I believe 35km/h are also barred.
I discuss this further down in the thread... but do you know of any bylaw that explicitly bans throttled bikes? I have a lectric ebike and while it looks and rides like a normal bike it also has a throttle. From what I see in the HTA it is allowed, but the city website has a little blurb that says otherwise. If it's just a little blurb on a city website and not a by-law I won't worry.
I mean, so long as there's no enforcement, I'm not going to worry, and just not ride like an asshole.
The city counsel adopted it as part of the Toronto Municipal Code in 2014:
[https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2014.PW28.2](https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2014.PW28.2)
Per the link see also:
* 121-2014: [https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0121.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0121.pdf)
* 256-2014: [https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0256.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0256.pdf)
These then all lead into the Municipal Code Chapter 886: [https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184\_886.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_886.pdf)
If you look at 886-15 you'll note that it bars the operation of any vehicle in a cycle track other than a bicycle (which per above excludes power-assist throttled bikes that can get power when not being actively pedaled) and heavy power-assisted cargo bicycles (which have their own definition and are not standard power-assisted bicycles that have independent throttles).
Guess I'm riding in the road baby!
Your honks mean nothing, they only make me hard.
Edit: my account has been suspended, so I can only reply by editing existing comments.
/u/SnakeOfLimitedWisdom - I'm not too worried as I'm a rather large person, and people tend to avoid confrontation with me. I've never had to have a physical altercation in my life.
Whose honks? Ima cyclist that doesn’t mind sharing my narrow paths with e-bikes but not a fan of being blown past by mopeds that think sticking a couple pedals on makes them a bike.
But do be careful - having ridden ebike in the road - even when I can easily keep up with traffic motorists have been VERY aggressive towards me and have demanded that I ride in the bike lane.
We don't want ebikes in the bike lane, but the cars make it very unsafe to be anywhere but.
You have full legal use of the road. Tell them that.
Tell them there is no mandate to use bike infrastructure. Tell them if they don't like it, to call the cops.
"Telling them that" doesn't help when they rush up behind you, or tailgate you going 40km/h, or any of a million other ways that motorists use their vehicles to intimidate and harass vulnerable road users.
*Some* motorists think that they have exclusive rights to the road. *Some* motorists think that we're obliged to remain in the bike lane, regardless of what you tell them.
You think the cops are going to show up in time to prevent an altercation as it develops in an intersection? You think anybody is going to stick around long enough for them to arrive? How long does it take to force somebody off the road or to run them down?
Like, you understand the problem is violence, right?
I understand it is violence. I usually explain to them in a polite matter and usually get insults as a result. Last person that threatened me, I said "do you want to spend the next ten years in prison?" (they were 58), so they decided not to "kill me if I did it again (took the lane).
They absolutely *hate* hearing that driving is a privilege, not a right.
If one is verbally threatening me, I stay far behind (if they're in front, and intentionally stopping multiple times). If they're behind me at an intersection, getting on the sidewalk and walking away (if that's possible) and flipping them off afterwards works. If they follow you (unlikely to leave their vehicles in traffic), the U-lock is a good method of self-defense.
It's just that if you're at the point of exchanging words - if you even have the opportunity to do so, then they've already performed *The Intimidation;* They've *already* behaved in a way which put you at risk. I think most people would prefer to avoid having that interaction in the first place, so they use the bike lanes instead of sharing the road with motor vehicles.
And some people are more vulnerable than others during those encounters, too. A 6'5 250 lb man isn't getting harassed nearly as much as a 110 lb trans woman.
I'm not a big fan of passing in a bike lane. I like to have plenty of buffer for mistakes. Cyclists generally aren't shoulder checking while in a bike lane, and since the lane is narrow, passing them in the same lane requires hoping that they don't suddenly change direction in an unpredictable way, and if they do, there's no room for error since there's no buffer space.
So, I pretty much always go into the car lane to overtake another cyclist. But I just see that as treating other road users how I would like to be treated
This is a stupid statement. There's a level of etiquette required when biking, and taking an ebike in a lane where it goes twice the speed of an average rider is dangerously unsafe.
I think there are some missdirected anger towards delivery riders. Not just ebikers, delivery drivers also appears to be the worst drivers, always park on bike lane or curbs even. The root problem is these people often commute 2-3 hours into the city for a crappy job that is designed to have you just scraping by while under some algorithmicly enforced pressure.
I did apply, but didn't pass their screening interview. Sucks, at least they paid by the hour had I gotten in, and didn't have an unrealistic delivery timing solution.
I feel like there is a big grey area with these e-bikes right now as they are still relatively new. I totally agree with you, it’s insane that they can reach speeds up to 40 km/hr and ride on the sidewalk/bike lane. I understand a lot of these riders are making a living doing delivery services, but it is becoming very dangerous to drivers & pedestrians. I’ve had way too many close calls to count. They need to put some rules in place to make it safer out there for everyone.
Not to be ped-antic but you can reach 40kmph on any decent roadie.
I’m not an e biker myself but I respect the ability for e-bikes to use bike lanes - Anything that takes a car off the road is a win for me
IMO the problem here is
a) if you’re riding unsafely (obviously), and
b) if your bike weighs the amount of a small moped.
The momentum of a 20lb roadie going 40kmph vs a 93lb EMMO e-bike is night and day.
With an ebike, you can reach 40km/h *easily*, within seconds, regardless of your fitness level or ridership skill. As a result, these vehicles tend to go faster on average than most bicycles.
They *are* more dangerous than a typical bicycle. It is imperative that ebike riders understand that the bike lane is not "their space", that they are effectively guests, and that they drive courteously towards others. It is an expectation, but I know this is not a solution unto itself.
Don’t disagree with anything in paragraph 1.
Or that they are more dangerous if ridden badly. They are.
I do disagree with the characterisation that they are “guests” on the bike lane.
That’s the attitude that some drivers have about bikes and it stokes an us and them mentality that’s unhelpful
There are dangerous cyclists 100%, and e-cyclists. Screw them.
But just as I don’t want to be judged by the actions of lunatics on bikes, I won’t judge e-cyclists in bike lanes
It's a different equation tho - ebikes are more powerful vehicles than bikes, so they should be courteous as guests in the bike lane. Cars are more powerful vehicles than bikes, so motorists should be courteous towards bikes (and ebikes) when they require use of the lane.
Bikes are more powerful vehicles than ... shoes ... so cyclists should be very cautious when riding on the sidewalk. No, I won't get into any debate about whether or not cyclists *should* be there, that is entirely beside the point - they *will* be there, and *when* they are there, they should be courteous to those more vulnerable than themselves.
anything with a(n assistive) motor is a guest in a bike lane, imo.
Edit: just today i saw an ebike in the bike lane fully controlled by throttle... the chain was completely off the chainring and rear wheel.
on Monday, i was on the danforth and smelled a lawnmower and the distinctive sound of a two stroke engine. two separate food drivers had gas powered bikes in the bike lane with EMMO plates.
it's getting out of hand
The part that worries me the most is id say if they do hit you there is a high chance they are not gonna stop. Those e-bikes are heavy as fuck can easily break bones.
I’ve had another cyclist hit me in Mimico and we both just said my bad and went on our way, no injuries
I like [this link ](https://www.reddit.com/r/torontobiking/s/mSqDQxV0bA) posted yesterday. The less cars we rely on the better things will run, ideally. Problem is that we don't have a safe place for this new category of vehicles (hell, we don't even have enough safe space for biking).
If someone is completely new to e-biking it makes sense that they'll rather compete with bikers than vehicles for space. It's mentioned to death, but we REALLY need better infrastructure, we're like 20 years behind and will take a while - if ever - to catch up...
In the intrum yeah, we all should be more considerate to one another, as a driver, as a biker, as a pedestrian.
You need to not let one bad interaction dictate massive policy decisions. The guy on the e-bike should have passed in a safer manner no need to ban e-bikes from bike lanes.
It's a similar experience to cars not using the turn signal before changing lanes. It's a bare minimum for safety reasons.
Again, I'd be happy if they practiced some proper etiquette or courtesy... Ring your bell, wait for an opening and pass when safe.
And yes, other cyclist should do the same. But by a large margin, my experience has been with food delivery ebikes.
Yeah well I've have been passed numerous times on the left in bike lanes and have never had an e-bike rider use his bell or call out to me . Not exactly an isolated incident .
Most ebikes are already banned from most bike lanes. Unless the motor assists with turning the pedals (I.e. you can't go anywhere without pedaling) the bike not allowed on any bike lane/path which is physically separated from the street.
This - it's an issue of enforcement. I believe the rule is, if it can go more than 32km/h without pedaling, then it's not allowed in the bike lane? (going from memory on the 32)
That is correct. There are a few rules (one of which is 32 km/h limit). But the main one that is easy to spot is when the motor is on the rear hub and not the pedals.
It definitely is an issue of enforcement. To be clear though, while I find this to be quite annoying, it probably is better than people driving cars. And, until people actually start getting hurt in decent numbers, it likely isn't the best use of police resources to enforce. Also to be clear, I regularly break the 20km/h limit on the path on my (regular) bike. So I can't really complain that much without being a total hypocrite.
>I believe the rule is, if it can go more than 32km/h without pedaling
If it can go more than 32kmh without pedaling, it's flat out illegal to use anywhere on public infrastructure.
Are you certain of that?
https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-and-the-law/electric-bicycles-e-bikes-e-scooters/
The city needs to update their page and just say "e-bikes that comply with O.Reg 369/09 are (or are not) allowed in bicycle lanes". Trying to make conflicting definitions of what an e-bike is and is not helps no one.
I agree it does seem overly complicated. The one exception I have is the big moped-style ebikes (like the purple one in the picture). Those seem pretty dangerous for a multi-use path IMO. I also think electric scooters (as defined on that page) should be allowed on bike paths/lanes. They currently aren't allowed anywhere.
Anyway, overall it's a fairly minor issue. I can't recall the last time someone was seriously hurt by one of these, so city council and the police definitely have more important things to consider IMO.
I think your original message was confusing because you said “most e-bikes are already banned” but that’s not true. It’s only the one kind of heavier, mini-scooter like style that’s banned. Other ones are all okay.
No that is not correct. Read the text and not the picture. To be allowed on a separated bike lane/path an ebike must be pedal-assisted. This means "e-bikes requiring pedaling for propulsion (i.e., the power is cut to the motor when the rider stops pedaling)." Also: "Power-assisted E-bikes may be **bicycle-style**, scooter-style or moped-style and regardless of style of appearance, they do not require any muscular power or pedaling for propulsion."
If you can accelerate using only the motor (which many bicycle-looking ebikes can do), your ebike isn't supposed to be on separated bike lanes.
We are really splitting hairs!
I understand and I’m looking at the table right now. According to that table, “most e-bikes” are allowed in separated bike paths labelled as “cycle tracks” in the table. It shows two kinds that are allowed and one kind that isn’t allowed. Two is greater than one so your original statement isn’t correct.
Whatever. It’s a dumb debate. What I think is hilarious about it, is that it’s classic Toronto.
Toronto in a nutshell: Complicated rules and tables for myriad types of infrastructure… but in the end, never any enforcement and no possible way to even enforce it.
That's some very ugh.. interesting... logic you have there. It seems you are assuming every row on the table is equally represented in terms of the number of bikes in the city.
I do agree, it's a bit of a silly debate. But, I stand by my original statement: most ebikes I see are not pedal-assisted and therefore aren't supposed to be on separated bike lanes/paths.
I think we know the kind of "bike" and even the manufacturer of the bike you're talking about, the operators of those scooters tend to have already demonstrated that they don't follow rules (hence the nickname "dui-cycles")
ETA2: I was referring to the electric scooters you see downtown and occasionally in the suburbs, many of those guys will ride those on sidewalks, wherever, DGAF. At full speed. I know this from years of living in an inner suburb of Toronto.
Well, there are a lot of bikes/manufacturers I'm referring to. Probably about 3/4ths of the bikes I see on the Martin-Goodman trail are technically not supposed to be there. And that isn't counting the scooters which are illegal everywhere.
But, to be clear, I'm happy people are riding and not polluting in cars. People going fast in ebikes is annoying, but until a decent number of people actually start getting hurt by it, Police have more important rules to enforce IMO.
>the operators of those scooters tend to have already demonstrated that they don't follow rules (hence the nickname "dui-cycles")
This is the exact same type of prejudice that motorists level against cyclists at large. Can we NOT do this? Unless you can cite a study to back up this claim, this could just as easily be your own cognitive bias.
I think a quick and potentially easy half way solution to this is to require bells on e bikes. I use my bell often (non ebike) and have been passed by non ebike cyclists using their bells or shouting. I don't think I've ever heard an ebike use a bell, or even seen one on an ebike. I see no reason not to do this. Whether they would be used or it is enforceable is another matter entirely...
You're punching down, mate. It's hard enough trying to get by as a courier - this only adds another punitive layer to an already punishing job. People will keep breaking those rules so long as the pressures they face incentivize them to do so.
The reason why couriers break rules like riding on sidewalks, biking the wrong way in lanes, is because the infrastructure is insufficient for them to perform their duties with the necessary speed. Improve the infrastructure and you eliminate 99% of the problems.
Another factor is in how the pay structure works. The piecemeal pay-by-order system means that if you're not making 4 or more deliveries in an hour you're not making a profit. Seconds count. Couriers *aren't* thinking about pedestrians or other road users; They are thinking about their own month-to-month survival when the rent comes due. This puts them in a lot of situations where rules get bent and broken for expediency's sake.
TLDR: Don't license couriers; improve infrastructure and regulate the predatory companies that employ them.
I was on the Bloor bike lane yesterday, and some jackass on a Yamaha motorcycle pulled up next to me, and he had an upsidedown emmo e-bike "plate" that I guess made it okay for him to use the bike lane.
What are they going to do about it? It's a picture of a bike without a plate, you can't really track that down. They don't even track things down when I've given them names and addresses in the past.
But, he did ride past two police cars and also some on duty cops stationed at the High Park entrance, and none of them cared.
Also, the guy looked very much like a criminal, I didn't really feel like risking my safety to take a picture of him that would accomplish nothing.
Well, if it's not feasible, I can respect that. Not worth risking your personal safety.
I did report a few vespa's with e-bike plates using the C.O.R.E reporting thing. Unsure what came of that.
Speed limit in bike lanes is 20kmh, but sadly and frustratingly, it is unenforced. So yeah, if ebikes want to go faster, legally they need to be in the general traffic (car) lanes. Of course in practice, there's not much can be done to actually make it happen that way. . .
Ebikers *would* ride in the road, but motorists are so aggressive towards anyone on two wheels that it really isn't safe to be anywhere but the bike lane.
I take the lane when it's blocked (airhorn got dislodged, so need to repair it once home - used it earlier today when it broke), or use my airhorn to make those asshats move.
I feel your frustration.
The ones going the **wrong way** in the infrastructure (I don't call it bike lanes) are asking for a head-on crash to happen.
I yell at individuals who do this (because ***who the fuck would drive like that on any street in any city!?!?!***), and tell them to cross the street.
Yup I fucking hate them (the ones that don’t follow the rules) and I think the drivers that hate cyclists conflate and confuse those e-bike assholes with cyclists and just rage out on all of us.
It’s not the bikes it’s the rider. I agree though that some classes of ebike need to be banned. But that’s not going to happen. To enforce this would be a pain and a waster of resources and time. What about scooters or any other electric vehicles? It’s a tough one.
They passed on the left.
They were a bicycle in the bike lane.
They didn’t actually hit you or otherwise impact or inconvenience you.
On the road, I am not expected to honk another car when I pass. The other driver is expected to maintain an attitude of spacial awareness as well.
Sounds like the problem is you.
They didn't impact or inconvenience me? My daughter and I almost got clipped at 8 AM going to school, which could have completely been avoided if the rider just said "on your left", rang their bell, or did anything to let me know they were going to pass.
Just because a car almost, but doesn't hit you doesn't make it right either.
But thanks for your opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way.
Get these fuckers off the sidewalks. The number of goddamn e-bikes that I see cruising on the sidewalk on Davenport rd, which has a goddamn bike lane, is way too high.
We need to... ban bikes... from the bike lanes... Now I ride all sorts of bikes, and an ebike is one of them. Super convenient when I need to haul a fuckload of shit a long distance. I don't think it was me since I rode on Bloor yesterday, and waited for clear spaces to pass people, but I think the problem is different from what you identify. #Bike lanes need to be larger to allow passing. As it is now, even on any sort of bike it is difficult to pass anyone in the bike line due to how narrow they are. Anyway, the no bell thing is not cool, but what do you expect from food delivery folks.
Bloor bike lanes are OK. College is really bad
College bad Yonge bad Any bike lane that's only 1.2m wide is not going to cut it.
That’s why I like Montreals bike lanes, more common to see bi-directional bike lanes on the same side of the street, might be more dangerous for collisions but having room to pass when safe is always nice.
A single large bi-directional bike lane certainly seems to make more sense, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were worse than uni-directional lanes.
Does Yonge even have a bike lane
Bloore to Davisville Edit: There must be a hater in this thread downvoting straight up facts. [Bloor - facing north](https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6704175,-79.3868571,3a,90y,345.48h,88.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxjBqzEI2wcc17IL2SQDhSA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DxjBqzEI2wcc17IL2SQDhSA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D143.7024%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu) [Davisville - facing south](https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6981657,-79.396639,3a,75y,165.41h,91.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTeiQ5bgtlXFma5SkOy57CQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu)
Yes, from Bloor to Davisville.
The new college lanes west of Spadina are nice and wide
Perhaps worded a bit strongly as I'm still a bit heated, but I'm inclined to continue to say that bikes that are wholly used via a throttle shouldn't be in the bike lane. It's a bike by name only at that point. One could argue semantics, but these bikes in my experience are much more often travelling at speeds closer to cars than other bikes. They don't travel with the flow of traffic, but usually against it speed wise. I'd be happy if they decided to share the lane safely, ring a bell, wait for an opening and then go. But I've yet to come across any of them doing so. Even in the presence of a small child, you'd think...
Pedal assist vs throttle e-bike is a fair distinction - EMMOs/electric moped generally should be on the street only. Sucks there’s nobody that would ever considering enforcing these rules though.
The throttle-only ones [aren't allowed in bike lanes](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-and-the-law/electric-bicycles-e-bikes-e-scooters/)
As if the cops give two shits about that rule.
Isn't a part of the problem more that you can't quite tell or that there is a judgement call needed?
First off, I'm sorry you had an interaction with some asshole. Just because I try not to be an asshole doesn't mean everyone out there isn't, so I can take the hate if you want. Funnily enough though, yesterday on my cargo run I came across two people with kids, one south of St Clair going up the hill who kept looking back to see if I was going to do something stupid (I guess). I just shouted (in what I hope was a friendly tone) "don't worry, I'm in no hurry" and the other one I just took the lane on Yonge south of Merton. Remember though, we have a common enemy, inattentive drivers. Yesterday I had two run ins with shitty uber eats riders, but six near misses with cars just pulling out without looking. Even funnier I chatted for a moment with a guy at Yonge and Bloor about his helmet cam, and he said "better to have it an not need it" only for me to have to e-stop a minute later because some dunce pulled out of a side street. He also vented about e-bike riders, but "no no no, not you, you know" lol.
tbf, ebikes travel at a speed that is not expected of something which is too be human powered in a "protected" lane. i understand they have a place, and quite frankly i think it's the lane with vehicles. i ride a fixed gear bikes and often take the live lane as it's way safer than our narrow bike lanes being utilized by large motor assisted "bicycles". (i rarely see them being cycled though, unless it's the battery).
Not to make perfection the enemy of good, but protected bike lanes need to always be stacked on the same side to allow for passing. Also makes it easier to turn around if you miss your turn
Nah, I'd rather NOT have a head-on collision with another cyclist, thanks.
Do you also get into head on collisions every time you drive?
Do head on collisions happen when traffic moves in opposite directions in close proximity to one another? Yes, this is a statistical certainty. It isn't about *me.*
Almost every single car road with the exception of highways is set up this way though?
Yes, and collisions are a huge problem. Motor vehicle accidents are a leading cause of death and disability.
Ebikes are banned from separated bike lanes, like on Bloor. There is 0 enforcement, unfortunately.
We do ban bikes from bike lanes. Ag least certain types. Only pedal assist bikes are allowed on cyclepaths like the Yonge/Bloor street paths. Throttled “bikes” aren’t supposed to be there. Similarly “super pedalics” which don’t limit electric assist to under I believe 35km/h are also barred.
I discuss this further down in the thread... but do you know of any bylaw that explicitly bans throttled bikes? I have a lectric ebike and while it looks and rides like a normal bike it also has a throttle. From what I see in the HTA it is allowed, but the city website has a little blurb that says otherwise. If it's just a little blurb on a city website and not a by-law I won't worry. I mean, so long as there's no enforcement, I'm not going to worry, and just not ride like an asshole.
The city counsel adopted it as part of the Toronto Municipal Code in 2014: [https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2014.PW28.2](https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2014.PW28.2) Per the link see also: * 121-2014: [https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0121.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0121.pdf) * 256-2014: [https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0256.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2014/law0256.pdf) These then all lead into the Municipal Code Chapter 886: [https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184\_886.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_886.pdf) If you look at 886-15 you'll note that it bars the operation of any vehicle in a cycle track other than a bicycle (which per above excludes power-assist throttled bikes that can get power when not being actively pedaled) and heavy power-assisted cargo bicycles (which have their own definition and are not standard power-assisted bicycles that have independent throttles).
Guess I'm riding in the road baby! Your honks mean nothing, they only make me hard. Edit: my account has been suspended, so I can only reply by editing existing comments. /u/SnakeOfLimitedWisdom - I'm not too worried as I'm a rather large person, and people tend to avoid confrontation with me. I've never had to have a physical altercation in my life.
Whose honks? Ima cyclist that doesn’t mind sharing my narrow paths with e-bikes but not a fan of being blown past by mopeds that think sticking a couple pedals on makes them a bike.
Car honks. If my e-bike isn't allowed in a bike lane (for more than one reason), I'm going to take the entire lane.
But do be careful - having ridden ebike in the road - even when I can easily keep up with traffic motorists have been VERY aggressive towards me and have demanded that I ride in the bike lane. We don't want ebikes in the bike lane, but the cars make it very unsafe to be anywhere but.
You have full legal use of the road. Tell them that. Tell them there is no mandate to use bike infrastructure. Tell them if they don't like it, to call the cops.
"Telling them that" doesn't help when they rush up behind you, or tailgate you going 40km/h, or any of a million other ways that motorists use their vehicles to intimidate and harass vulnerable road users. *Some* motorists think that they have exclusive rights to the road. *Some* motorists think that we're obliged to remain in the bike lane, regardless of what you tell them. You think the cops are going to show up in time to prevent an altercation as it develops in an intersection? You think anybody is going to stick around long enough for them to arrive? How long does it take to force somebody off the road or to run them down? Like, you understand the problem is violence, right?
I understand it is violence. I usually explain to them in a polite matter and usually get insults as a result. Last person that threatened me, I said "do you want to spend the next ten years in prison?" (they were 58), so they decided not to "kill me if I did it again (took the lane). They absolutely *hate* hearing that driving is a privilege, not a right. If one is verbally threatening me, I stay far behind (if they're in front, and intentionally stopping multiple times). If they're behind me at an intersection, getting on the sidewalk and walking away (if that's possible) and flipping them off afterwards works. If they follow you (unlikely to leave their vehicles in traffic), the U-lock is a good method of self-defense.
It's just that if you're at the point of exchanging words - if you even have the opportunity to do so, then they've already performed *The Intimidation;* They've *already* behaved in a way which put you at risk. I think most people would prefer to avoid having that interaction in the first place, so they use the bike lanes instead of sharing the road with motor vehicles. And some people are more vulnerable than others during those encounters, too. A 6'5 250 lb man isn't getting harassed nearly as much as a 110 lb trans woman.
I'm not a big fan of passing in a bike lane. I like to have plenty of buffer for mistakes. Cyclists generally aren't shoulder checking while in a bike lane, and since the lane is narrow, passing them in the same lane requires hoping that they don't suddenly change direction in an unpredictable way, and if they do, there's no room for error since there's no buffer space. So, I pretty much always go into the car lane to overtake another cyclist. But I just see that as treating other road users how I would like to be treated
Fyi, there is no such thing as a *car lane*.
Sorry, I'm not an urban planner, please enlighten me on what the correct term for the non-bike lane is
I just call it a lane. That's what it is.
i call it the live lane, ironically, i find it safer to travel on than this city's bike lanes
Well that’s not happening.
This is a stupid statement. There's a level of etiquette required when biking, and taking an ebike in a lane where it goes twice the speed of an average rider is dangerously unsafe.
They don’t enforce no biking on sidewalks. Why would they enforce no biking in a bike lane with an ebike
They don't enforce no driving cars on sidewalks, in parks, or in bike lanes why would they enforce no biking in a bike lane with an ebike?
Last time a motorist told me to ride on the sidewalk, I told them "why don't you?" And they rolled up their window.
I think there are some missdirected anger towards delivery riders. Not just ebikers, delivery drivers also appears to be the worst drivers, always park on bike lane or curbs even. The root problem is these people often commute 2-3 hours into the city for a crappy job that is designed to have you just scraping by while under some algorithmicly enforced pressure.
It's an unrealistic time expectation. I know because I *used* to do doordash.
Fedora, when they were still in Canada.
I did apply, but didn't pass their screening interview. Sucks, at least they paid by the hour had I gotten in, and didn't have an unrealistic delivery timing solution.
I feel like there is a big grey area with these e-bikes right now as they are still relatively new. I totally agree with you, it’s insane that they can reach speeds up to 40 km/hr and ride on the sidewalk/bike lane. I understand a lot of these riders are making a living doing delivery services, but it is becoming very dangerous to drivers & pedestrians. I’ve had way too many close calls to count. They need to put some rules in place to make it safer out there for everyone.
Not to be ped-antic but you can reach 40kmph on any decent roadie. I’m not an e biker myself but I respect the ability for e-bikes to use bike lanes - Anything that takes a car off the road is a win for me IMO the problem here is a) if you’re riding unsafely (obviously), and b) if your bike weighs the amount of a small moped. The momentum of a 20lb roadie going 40kmph vs a 93lb EMMO e-bike is night and day.
With an ebike, you can reach 40km/h *easily*, within seconds, regardless of your fitness level or ridership skill. As a result, these vehicles tend to go faster on average than most bicycles. They *are* more dangerous than a typical bicycle. It is imperative that ebike riders understand that the bike lane is not "their space", that they are effectively guests, and that they drive courteously towards others. It is an expectation, but I know this is not a solution unto itself.
Don’t disagree with anything in paragraph 1. Or that they are more dangerous if ridden badly. They are. I do disagree with the characterisation that they are “guests” on the bike lane. That’s the attitude that some drivers have about bikes and it stokes an us and them mentality that’s unhelpful There are dangerous cyclists 100%, and e-cyclists. Screw them. But just as I don’t want to be judged by the actions of lunatics on bikes, I won’t judge e-cyclists in bike lanes
It's a different equation tho - ebikes are more powerful vehicles than bikes, so they should be courteous as guests in the bike lane. Cars are more powerful vehicles than bikes, so motorists should be courteous towards bikes (and ebikes) when they require use of the lane. Bikes are more powerful vehicles than ... shoes ... so cyclists should be very cautious when riding on the sidewalk. No, I won't get into any debate about whether or not cyclists *should* be there, that is entirely beside the point - they *will* be there, and *when* they are there, they should be courteous to those more vulnerable than themselves.
anything with a(n assistive) motor is a guest in a bike lane, imo. Edit: just today i saw an ebike in the bike lane fully controlled by throttle... the chain was completely off the chainring and rear wheel. on Monday, i was on the danforth and smelled a lawnmower and the distinctive sound of a two stroke engine. two separate food drivers had gas powered bikes in the bike lane with EMMO plates. it's getting out of hand
It's worse if they're going the wrong way IN the infrastructure.
Boils down to consideration of others, and enforcement. There’s neither in this city.
The part that worries me the most is id say if they do hit you there is a high chance they are not gonna stop. Those e-bikes are heavy as fuck can easily break bones. I’ve had another cyclist hit me in Mimico and we both just said my bad and went on our way, no injuries
Try 200lbs like those pseudo motorcycle style eBikes. My buddy has one and it’s heavy.
>Those e-bikes are heavy as fuck can easily break bones. They're about as heavy as the bike shares, around 20-25kg. Nothing crazy actually.
Yeah bike share bikes are slow as hell though. An e bike is similar weight and can go 30-50km/h on a dime
Oh yeah totally agree. Just saying that they are usually not as heavy as they look.
My trike weighs that much. Lol
I like [this link ](https://www.reddit.com/r/torontobiking/s/mSqDQxV0bA) posted yesterday. The less cars we rely on the better things will run, ideally. Problem is that we don't have a safe place for this new category of vehicles (hell, we don't even have enough safe space for biking). If someone is completely new to e-biking it makes sense that they'll rather compete with bikers than vehicles for space. It's mentioned to death, but we REALLY need better infrastructure, we're like 20 years behind and will take a while - if ever - to catch up... In the intrum yeah, we all should be more considerate to one another, as a driver, as a biker, as a pedestrian.
You need to not let one bad interaction dictate massive policy decisions. The guy on the e-bike should have passed in a safer manner no need to ban e-bikes from bike lanes.
It's a similar experience to cars not using the turn signal before changing lanes. It's a bare minimum for safety reasons. Again, I'd be happy if they practiced some proper etiquette or courtesy... Ring your bell, wait for an opening and pass when safe. And yes, other cyclist should do the same. But by a large margin, my experience has been with food delivery ebikes.
Yeah well I've have been passed numerous times on the left in bike lanes and have never had an e-bike rider use his bell or call out to me . Not exactly an isolated incident .
Or going the wrong way.
Sometimes , but they're not usually going 35
Cool I’m sure non e-bike riders do it to
Most ebikes are already banned from most bike lanes. Unless the motor assists with turning the pedals (I.e. you can't go anywhere without pedaling) the bike not allowed on any bike lane/path which is physically separated from the street.
This - it's an issue of enforcement. I believe the rule is, if it can go more than 32km/h without pedaling, then it's not allowed in the bike lane? (going from memory on the 32)
That is correct. There are a few rules (one of which is 32 km/h limit). But the main one that is easy to spot is when the motor is on the rear hub and not the pedals. It definitely is an issue of enforcement. To be clear though, while I find this to be quite annoying, it probably is better than people driving cars. And, until people actually start getting hurt in decent numbers, it likely isn't the best use of police resources to enforce. Also to be clear, I regularly break the 20km/h limit on the path on my (regular) bike. So I can't really complain that much without being a total hypocrite.
>I believe the rule is, if it can go more than 32km/h without pedaling If it can go more than 32kmh without pedaling, it's flat out illegal to use anywhere on public infrastructure.
Are you certain of that? https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-and-the-law/electric-bicycles-e-bikes-e-scooters/
Yes. It says so in the link you provided. "Power-assisted E-bikes are not allowed on cycle tracks (separated bike lanes) or multi-use trails or paths"
The city needs to update their page and just say "e-bikes that comply with O.Reg 369/09 are (or are not) allowed in bicycle lanes". Trying to make conflicting definitions of what an e-bike is and is not helps no one.
I agree it does seem overly complicated. The one exception I have is the big moped-style ebikes (like the purple one in the picture). Those seem pretty dangerous for a multi-use path IMO. I also think electric scooters (as defined on that page) should be allowed on bike paths/lanes. They currently aren't allowed anywhere. Anyway, overall it's a fairly minor issue. I can't recall the last time someone was seriously hurt by one of these, so city council and the police definitely have more important things to consider IMO.
I think your original message was confusing because you said “most e-bikes are already banned” but that’s not true. It’s only the one kind of heavier, mini-scooter like style that’s banned. Other ones are all okay.
No that is not correct. Read the text and not the picture. To be allowed on a separated bike lane/path an ebike must be pedal-assisted. This means "e-bikes requiring pedaling for propulsion (i.e., the power is cut to the motor when the rider stops pedaling)." Also: "Power-assisted E-bikes may be **bicycle-style**, scooter-style or moped-style and regardless of style of appearance, they do not require any muscular power or pedaling for propulsion." If you can accelerate using only the motor (which many bicycle-looking ebikes can do), your ebike isn't supposed to be on separated bike lanes.
We are really splitting hairs! I understand and I’m looking at the table right now. According to that table, “most e-bikes” are allowed in separated bike paths labelled as “cycle tracks” in the table. It shows two kinds that are allowed and one kind that isn’t allowed. Two is greater than one so your original statement isn’t correct. Whatever. It’s a dumb debate. What I think is hilarious about it, is that it’s classic Toronto. Toronto in a nutshell: Complicated rules and tables for myriad types of infrastructure… but in the end, never any enforcement and no possible way to even enforce it.
That's some very ugh.. interesting... logic you have there. It seems you are assuming every row on the table is equally represented in terms of the number of bikes in the city. I do agree, it's a bit of a silly debate. But, I stand by my original statement: most ebikes I see are not pedal-assisted and therefore aren't supposed to be on separated bike lanes/paths.
I think we know the kind of "bike" and even the manufacturer of the bike you're talking about, the operators of those scooters tend to have already demonstrated that they don't follow rules (hence the nickname "dui-cycles") ETA2: I was referring to the electric scooters you see downtown and occasionally in the suburbs, many of those guys will ride those on sidewalks, wherever, DGAF. At full speed. I know this from years of living in an inner suburb of Toronto.
Well, there are a lot of bikes/manufacturers I'm referring to. Probably about 3/4ths of the bikes I see on the Martin-Goodman trail are technically not supposed to be there. And that isn't counting the scooters which are illegal everywhere. But, to be clear, I'm happy people are riding and not polluting in cars. People going fast in ebikes is annoying, but until a decent number of people actually start getting hurt by it, Police have more important rules to enforce IMO.
I should have been clear that I meant the scooters! Yes honestly the ebikes of whatever kind are fine.
>the operators of those scooters tend to have already demonstrated that they don't follow rules (hence the nickname "dui-cycles") This is the exact same type of prejudice that motorists level against cyclists at large. Can we NOT do this? Unless you can cite a study to back up this claim, this could just as easily be your own cognitive bias.
There needs to be education/outreach of proper, courteous, and safe bicycle operation.
I think a quick and potentially easy half way solution to this is to require bells on e bikes. I use my bell often (non ebike) and have been passed by non ebike cyclists using their bells or shouting. I don't think I've ever heard an ebike use a bell, or even seen one on an ebike. I see no reason not to do this. Whether they would be used or it is enforceable is another matter entirely...
Bells are already required on all bikes (not just ebikes) in Toronto.
Sauce?
https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-and-the-law/electric-bicycles-e-bikes-e-scooters/
Thank you!
# I BELIEVE FOOD COURIERS SHOULD BE LICNESED
You're punching down, mate. It's hard enough trying to get by as a courier - this only adds another punitive layer to an already punishing job. People will keep breaking those rules so long as the pressures they face incentivize them to do so. The reason why couriers break rules like riding on sidewalks, biking the wrong way in lanes, is because the infrastructure is insufficient for them to perform their duties with the necessary speed. Improve the infrastructure and you eliminate 99% of the problems. Another factor is in how the pay structure works. The piecemeal pay-by-order system means that if you're not making 4 or more deliveries in an hour you're not making a profit. Seconds count. Couriers *aren't* thinking about pedestrians or other road users; They are thinking about their own month-to-month survival when the rent comes due. This puts them in a lot of situations where rules get bent and broken for expediency's sake. TLDR: Don't license couriers; improve infrastructure and regulate the predatory companies that employ them.
I was on the Bloor bike lane yesterday, and some jackass on a Yamaha motorcycle pulled up next to me, and he had an upsidedown emmo e-bike "plate" that I guess made it okay for him to use the bike lane.
Should have taken a photo and called police, then showed them it. Without a license, there is a big time fine and impounding.
What are they going to do about it? It's a picture of a bike without a plate, you can't really track that down. They don't even track things down when I've given them names and addresses in the past. But, he did ride past two police cars and also some on duty cops stationed at the High Park entrance, and none of them cared. Also, the guy looked very much like a criminal, I didn't really feel like risking my safety to take a picture of him that would accomplish nothing.
Well, if it's not feasible, I can respect that. Not worth risking your personal safety. I did report a few vespa's with e-bike plates using the C.O.R.E reporting thing. Unsure what came of that.
Speed limit in bike lanes is 20kmh, but sadly and frustratingly, it is unenforced. So yeah, if ebikes want to go faster, legally they need to be in the general traffic (car) lanes. Of course in practice, there's not much can be done to actually make it happen that way. . .
Ebike is a misleading name for electrical motorcycle. Should be on the road not on bike lanes
Ebikers *would* ride in the road, but motorists are so aggressive towards anyone on two wheels that it really isn't safe to be anywhere but the bike lane.
I take the lane when it's blocked (airhorn got dislodged, so need to repair it once home - used it earlier today when it broke), or use my airhorn to make those asshats move.
A scourge. Whisper quiet. Super fast. So f*ckin dangerous.
I feel your frustration. The ones going the **wrong way** in the infrastructure (I don't call it bike lanes) are asking for a head-on crash to happen. I yell at individuals who do this (because ***who the fuck would drive like that on any street in any city!?!?!***), and tell them to cross the street.
Yup I fucking hate them (the ones that don’t follow the rules) and I think the drivers that hate cyclists conflate and confuse those e-bike assholes with cyclists and just rage out on all of us.
Let's ban all cars because half of the people in Toronto don't know how to drive or are aggressive and dangerous to everyone on the road.
these people are shit heads
We need protected bike lanes that cars can’t park in every 5 metres.
Infrastructure needs to be upgraded.
It’s not the bikes it’s the rider. I agree though that some classes of ebike need to be banned. But that’s not going to happen. To enforce this would be a pain and a waster of resources and time. What about scooters or any other electric vehicles? It’s a tough one.
Still one less car, which is one less thing capable of killing you.
I mean, I almost got clipped with a kid on the back of the bike. I don't know if that's any better than a car.
Both you, the kid and the rider would have been in a spread out heap. Seen it happen.
They passed on the left. They were a bicycle in the bike lane. They didn’t actually hit you or otherwise impact or inconvenience you. On the road, I am not expected to honk another car when I pass. The other driver is expected to maintain an attitude of spacial awareness as well. Sounds like the problem is you.
They didn't impact or inconvenience me? My daughter and I almost got clipped at 8 AM going to school, which could have completely been avoided if the rider just said "on your left", rang their bell, or did anything to let me know they were going to pass. Just because a car almost, but doesn't hit you doesn't make it right either. But thanks for your opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way.
They weigh a lot less than a car so it *is* better/safer, but your frustration at being put at risk is still justified.