They wouldn't view a Chorf as anything other than a dishonourable abomination. Dawi aren't in the business of forgiving like Umgi. When they say the Great book of Grudges records every slight and every infraction against the Dawi, they mean it. There can be no admiration, only a reckoning !
And the Dawi Zharr committed an especially egregious sin. Not only did they turn their backs on the ancestor gods, but they willingly submitted to a lesser Chaos God.
Let me put it this way. The Dwarfs hate the Orcs and Goblins so much that the very word Urk, means the same thing as "enemy" in Khazalid, that's how much they hate them. Their hatred for them is imprinted in their very language. I bet if you walked into any Dwarf tavern you'd hear half of the conversations being about the Urks in one way or another.
The Dwarfs don't speak about the Dawi Zharr. They don't ever talk about them except in very serious hushed tones when absolutely neccessary. The Dawi Zharr are a shame to all Dwarfkind, one they don't like to admit to themselves even exist.
The Dwarfs can't ever accept redemption or forgiveness for the Chaos Dwarfs under any circumstances, to do so would just mean showing sympathy for that which stands so opposite to every ideal that the Dwarfs have.
That is the case for adult Chorfs but what about the children or infants. Would they view them the same and just kill them all the same or would they try to reeducate them and make them real Dwarfs again?
A Dwarf will feel obligated to take vengeance on the descendent of someone that wronged their father or mother. Grudges get passed down through lineages, they do not get forgotten just because someone died and had children. Dwarfs take the Slayer Oath in order to wash away the sin that their father or grandfather committed, they are willing to die for sins they didn't even commit that's how seriously the Dwarfs take this shit.
And the severity and seriousness of the grudge against the Dawi Zharr is beyond the max level that you can have in Dwarf society. You could argue the Dwarfs would have more sympathy for Goblins since Goblins can't help themselves but be evil, it's their own sinister little nature. A Chaos Dwarf on the other hand, that was once a Dwarf that broke all of his oaths in order to embrace evil, and the children of someone like that, can't be shown any sympathy at all, not even the kind of theoretical sympathy one might show for a goblin.
I remember reading that the Chaos Dwarfs are such a shameful mark that officially acknowledging that they exist would require the entire Dwarfen civilization to take a collective slayer oath.
Not sure if this is supported by official lore though.
I dunno about the second part, but the first part tracks with what I've read. The Dwarfs don't talk about the Chaos Dwarfs. The Dwarfs don't want to admit to themselves that the Chaos Dwarfs exist.
The Dwarfs hold the fact that they don't use magic and are clean from chaos taint over the Humans on a comically constant basis. If more humans knew about the Chaos Dwarfs (because most don't) it would be enormously hypocritical of the Dwarfs to constantly pretend that the Humans are somehow less committed to eradicating Chaos than they are.
Do you know of any stories where humans suddenly had dwarfs infront of them trying to kill them without them even knowing why? Just because an ancestor down the line wronged a dwarf?
Or would something like this be punished by the empire? Or is there some sort of diplomatic instance where dwarfs and humans could unite to solve this without murder?
Going deep in the lore here but it is really interesting.
The Dwarfs don't work that way with Humans. If you've wronged a Dwarf they WILL let you know and they will give you a chance to set things right before it ever comes down to violence. Dwarfs that interact with Humans feel a sense of duty to help the humans flourish first and foremost which goes back to their ancient feeling of gratitude they feel towards Sigmar who saved the Dwarfs in a time of need.
I don't remember it well but this happens in the warhammer novel Masters of Stone and Steel. The king of Zhufbar honors his alliance with an empire baron to assist against a rampaging horde of greenskins raiding his barony. However, when the dwarves and the baron's men confront the greenskin horde, the baron flees in cowardice. The dwarfs defeat the greenskin army, but the king of zhufbar dies in battle. His son declares a grudge against the baron.
However, it turns out the new king must settle other grudges before that one. The king also deals with, among other things, a massive skaven siege of zhufbar. Many decades pass but to dwarfs this is not long. Finally the king can march on the baron. The dwarf army shows up storms the barons castle, killing many people and confronting the baron who turns out to be like 6 years old and the grandson of the original one who caused the grudge. None of the humans had any idea why the hell dwarfs were attacking them lol
Dwarfs and Humans share a special relationship. Sigmar helped them a long fucking time ago and now they view humankind as 'their greatest mortal ally, in all things.' and for the most part this is reciprocated by the Empire.
To this extent, Dwarfs view humans are strange, erratic, unknowable idiots that mean well. They rationalize this as 'Well, they only live to be 70 years old, I remember how stupid I was when I was 70. Thought I knew everything, I did.' and I'm not joking. Ghal Maraz is a token of exactly how much Dwarfs value their relationship with humans, as it isn't just any warhammer. Ghal Maraz was crafted by the Dwarf God Smednir, and is, if my memory serves, **the greatest dwarf weapon to ever exist.** And they handed it to Sigmar, as a gift.
Grudgebearer. It’s a story about the in game leader of Zhufbar. He razes a city in the empire for betraying his father centuries before. When he finally gets about settling the grudge it’s with the great grandchildren of the betrayer and no human even remembers it happened.
It would be a task that a Dwarf Warrior would be honor bound to carry out, he might find no great joy in it but the taint of Chaos has to be eradicated from all of Dwarfkind, or they will all continue to share in the shame.
I think if a Dwarf Warrior actually DID feel sorrow for killing the children of the tainted, that might actually be a reason for taking the Slayer oath himself. That's how important of a duty it is, that Chaos be eradicated from ALL Dwarfs. It's bad enough the Dwarfs ally themselves with Manlings that are so susceptible to dark influences, and even use magic themselves. The Dawi cannot ever allow the taint of Chaos to linger on them, lest their entire species be damned for it.
Gotrek and Felix in Elfslayer see a similar situation from slave dwarves serving druchii overlords. The beardling did redeem himself in a sacrifice to aid Gotrek and Felix saving the empire but before that gotrek had immense disdain for even beardling but much more for his father who "let themselves be captured".
It is very much going to depend on the exact dwarf in question. Gotrek has particularly high expectations of other dwarfs. There are some that might disagree and say the child should live but they are in the minority.
Being captured by Elves and being the spawn of a Chaos tainted Dwarf are two different crimes, and the latter is a LOT more serious.
If Gotrek felt the way he did about the slave Dwarfs in Elfslayer, imagine how he'd feel about a Chaos Dwarf child?
Chaos dwarves are tainted from birth. Doesn't matter their age they are all deserving of the axe. It's not like these are normal dwarves who choose to worship a chaos God and be assholes. Their entire race is literally tainted by chaos warping their bodies. The tusks, their ability to use magic, and more subtle things like their callous disregard for life and greed are all different from a true dwarf now. It's like if you brought a goblin child before the dwarves and asked the same question
but the chorfs are not in the great book of grudges, in fact I think they are the only sapient race in the world that has not a single entry in the dammaz kron.
I always figured this was because iirc didn't the chorfs turn to hashut because they were abandoned, and it was that, or death? I assumed the chorfs didn't get written in for turning because it's the dwarfs' dirty secret: the fault is their own, so they'd have to write themselves in the book. The chorfs are the ones with the right to grudge, no?
Feel free to correct me of course - TWW got me into fantasy, so I don't have the depth of lore-knowledge that longer going fans will.
Below, SynShot has a good explanation. But i dont know if its ever explicitly stated. I always figured because the Book of Grudges records shames committed against the Dawi. Not shames and grudges committed by the Dawi. The Dawi Zharr are their greatest shame. Its true that the dawi begrudge the chorfs for not dying in combat before becoming tainted by chaos, but the dawi still abandoned them nonetheless.
I think this is incorrect. I believe the reason they aren't in there is because the dishonor is so deep the Dawi won't acknowledge it, even in the book of grudges. What would be the point of putting them in the book anyway? Any Dawi already knows the Dawi-Zharr's existence is the ultimate grudge.
The Chorfs being abandoned is irrelevant. It would be sad for them to die, but better to die an honorable death in combat then be tainted with chaos.
It wasn't a death in combat that was the threat though - it was a bunch of settlers' families left to die of thirst, starvation, and the elements out in the darklands colonies, no?
Correct that they weren't an army. Still they were hunkard down due to chaos demons and darkland nastys. If the decision is to wait until starvation, hopefully try to fight your way back to dwarf society, or turn to chaos, you don't pick the last option.
Oh no yeah I'm in total agreement there. Just always wondered since I read it if some of the reason for lack of written grudge is because the shame not only stems from it being kin who have turned to chaos, but also some shame that they feel part of the blame is their own. Just considering the dawi sense of guilt seems to be nearly as strong as their sense of justice, I had to wonder a bit.
They held out against hordes of demons and the great cataclysm for half a millennium without a single answered prayer or any contact from the other dwarfs. They were completely abandoned. Travelling 1000 miles across open wasteland with families in tow during the great cataclysm is not any kind of option. Survival is not so bad.
But are Slayers forgiven? Obviously there's several degrees of how much you fucked up before taking the oath, but generally speaking most dwarves view Slayers as something to be avoided, shunned, etc. When someone takes the oath the rest are just "alright fine I won't kill you then, but I still hate you".
Slayers who fulfill their oaths get to go to the halls of Grimnir. No shot any Dawi is going to even consider letting one of the Dawi Zharr have an opportunity to go there.
I don’t think the Dwarfs consider the Chorfs the same race as them, so they wouldn’t entertain the thought of him becoming a Slayer, it’d be like a Skaven taking the Oath, or worse.
The only way that would work if is the Chorf took the Oath on his own and Grimnir somehow unmutated him to the point he was essentially a normal Dwarf again, but I don’t think Grimnir would be too forgiving of any Chorf
I can't seem to find it. It may have been some fan story, and not actual canon. I do remember the general idea of the story tho.
The long and short of it was, that after Gotrek replaced Grimnir at the Polar Gate, Grimnir was free to go and help during the final battle.
After this, he answered a call for help from what he thought was dwarfs. Coming out of a portal from the realms of chaos, he found the survivors from the Chaos Dwarf race (after Grimgor went to town on them), saw their mutations and their shame, and "gave them mercy". If I remember right, there was no malice or hate behind his actions, but sadness and pity.
I don't know where I read this bit tho. I can't seem to find it anywhere, but I remember reading it clear as day.
Oh... That explains it. Thanks.
I'm guessing majorkill? I watch a lot of lore videos of both Fantasy and 40k, and the first Aussie that comes to mind among YouTubers that makes videos on the topic is majorkill.
This is it absolutely. Just like a human wouldn’t be taken seriously if they tried to take the oath. Except that, rather than the reaction being somewhere between laughter with perhaps mild indulgence and hostility, it would be immediate death.
I understand what you're saying but a Skaven slayer sounds fucking radical. A severely mentally ill Ratman that has an excessive amount of honor and decency which drives him to suicidal atonement for his whole species, and it's so intense that Grimnir blesses him as an honorary Dwarf (because Skaven are also so spiteful that it aligns pretty well as it turns out).
Slayers have to put the good of their people before all, from death to glory to pleasure.
Orks can’t look at a fight and go ‘nah, this won’ help da Stuntie Boyz” or turn down dakka.
Huh? this is just wrong, slayers are compelled to find death in glorious combat as quickly as possible, not to help our their people. The only exception to this is Ungrim who's whole deal is that he *does* have to balance his duty to his people as king with his slayer oath.
Death in combat, but not suicidal stupidity to die faster.
Their death has to be useful to the Dwarf race or their allies in the Empire. They can’t immediately go charge headfirst into the path of a Seeker Chariot on purpose even if its technically a glorious death in battle. Or just attack kinsmen in a bar ten minutes after the Oath.
Orks are in it for the fight, doesn’t matter against who or why.
It absolutely does not have to be useful, the ideal slayer seeks out some monster and gets killed in their first battle, that's the whole deal. The slayers who win battles and keep making themselves useful are bad slayers. (And obviously they're not supposed to lose on purpose, but they are supposed to lose.)
A Slayer who’s lived a long time is one who isn’t trying hard enough, not one who’s managed to defeat many foes.
The Battle For Skull Pass novel depicts this. Gotrek is just a jackass, projecting his own self-judgement on Snorri and Malakai.
The redemption comes from their use, not simply by dying. Given the entire tradition is based on Grimnir saving the world by holding off the hordes of Chaos by himself it wouldn’t make sense for the tradition to just be to die as fast as possible on the technicality that it happened during a battle or against a monster.
I feel like the dwarfs would still say "You Elgi don't understand the Slayer Oaths any more than you understand a proper beard." And say no.
And the lore I've been reading recently supports that they might be *right*- Dwarfs have *weird lore* about a physical inability to commit or even consider suicide, by action or by passive lack thereof. Slayers apparently don't need to go fight for the dwarfs to die just for cultural reason, but because they *physically have no other way they can seek death*, nor are they capable of giving anything less than their genuine best effort to fight, even as they desire nothing more than to be slaughtered right here and now.
Warhammer is weird, man.
Except that dwarfs do care about the oaths that other races make. Gotrek and Felix, Snorri Whitebeard and Malekith (Malearion whatever), we see that dwarfs do care very much about the oaths of others. Would they actually trust that a chorf would uphold his new oath and act like a proper slayer? Probably not, but I imagine that at least certain dwarf lords would give him the chance to do so. I easily see Ungrim and Grombrindal letting him take the oath, but I could also see Thorgrim or Thorek just killing him on the spot.
Nor would hashut for the betrayal, so your odds of surviving long enough to even take the oath arent great.
Not to mention that from the Dawi-Zharrs point of view, it was the dwarfs that betrayed them and broke their oath, and while a lot has changed for the Dawi-Zharr, theyve kept their almost instinctual vengeful streak.
I thought I saw something where Hashut owns their souls from birth. The sorcerers using magic is what turns them to stone but they are all corrupted by Hashut from birth.
Chorfs are soulbound to Hashut at birth, so most if not all chorfs will fight tooth and nail to enjoy life till their damnation, but pretending for some reason that doesn't happen and they want to seek redemption.
Dwarfs hold oaths above all else, to the point if one human goes back on their word, they may no longer trust that town or even humans in general depending in the situation. Trusting a dawi-zarr who betrayed their own race? Who is unsupported by the ancestor gods? That's a grudgin.
Wouldn't happen because the goal of the slayer oath is to regain your lost honor in the eyes of the gods and your ancestors. A Chaos Dwarf doesn't have any honor to begin with, neither does his family and they have forsaken the gods, there's nothing there to reclaim. The only thing a chaos dwarf can do is hope for a swift death in the eyes of normal dwarfs.
A chaos dwarf has their own honour and their own god they just wouldn’t care what a Dawi thinks of them. They’d be more interested in beating them and taking them home for sacrifice.
Not sure why you are being downvoted on that. The Infernal Guard is literally their equivalent of Slayers, the difference being that they can redeem themselves in Chorf society without dying, which I believe Castellans fall under the former Infernal Guard redeemed ones within their society.
Think it’s just misunderstanding. The chaos dwarf has no honour in the eyes of the dwarf but the chaos dwarf has their own honour system within their own society. A lot of the discussion here is taken from the dwarfs perspective not considering that the dwarfs and chaos dwarfs are two completely seperate peoples and societies separated by thousands of years and miles. The difference between slayers and infernal guard as you’re saying is a solid example.
The Dawi Zharr already turned their backs on the ancestor gods. They're the ultimate oathbreakers as a race in the eyes of the Dawi. Why would they even consider the request to be genuine, much less allow them to make an oath to follow in the footsteps of an ancestor they've already betrayed once?
Further, the Dawi Zharr wouldn't even be capable of making the request or considering doing so. They're (willing) slaves to Hashut, even if they don't say so. Bound to Hashut's will from birth, they're as incapable of turning their backs on their new god now as the Dawi are of forgiveness.
When it comes to Chaos there really is no breaking free or redemption for any one. I think there was a story where a High Elf cleansed all chaos corruption from a Chaos Warrior and that warrior was instantly turned to Chaos Spawn. Its an example of there is no escape or redemption from it.
I mean I love these games, but it'll always be the thing I find the most dissonant about WFB and 40k - that so many fans genuinely love that these worlds are so deterministic and grim and cheerfully ready to consign entire races to being beyond salvation, that so many people are, through absolutely no fault of their own, lost to chaos from the moment of their conception with no hope of ever making their own choice. Don't mean to harsh on anyone's yums, it's a perfectly valid thing to enjoy in a setting but damn if it isn't beyond my comprehension and more than a bit offputting for me.
i think it pushes it so far it doesnt feel real. I dont want to read a story about domestic violence or cancer diagnosis cuz that hits too close to home, but someone getting melted by magic moon-rock acid fired from a cannon built by a 6 foot rat-man is safely something I probably wont have to deal with irl. I kinda get it though. I'm not really into horror movie violence/gore but I can kinda see the popcorn fakeness of it.
You get shades of gray in a lot of places, but it is refreshingly simple black and white. It gets really tiring after the 20th "YOu cAn'T kiLl gOBliN bAbIEs!" In a setting where people are fighting for desperate survival, people don't think twice. Its morality is completely foreign to modern bleeding hearts.
This is literally just a morality question that we can't have on earth. If skaven killed my family irl I'd have no trepidation burn-killing skaven.
...but there's no skaven on earth. Just people with a common humanity. And honestly, if they killed my family I might kill them too, I am just lucky enough to live somewhere safe enough
I mean...we used to do this on earth. Wiping out tribes or other nations in the early days of history. Hell, acts of cultural or actual genocide still happen to this day. People moan about it, but its still very much happening.
A great many things in Warhammer are a satire on British society both past and present. The lack of basically any social mobility always struck me as a parody of how important class was historically (and can be to some degree still) in the uk. Not part of the aristocracy? Commoner. Unworthy of a higher station, and who’s purpose in life should be to serve and die for his betters. Same in Warhammer.
A DawiZharr would never approach the Dawi essentially asking for forgiveness and to reclaim honour. Their cultures are seperated by thousands of years but they are still stubborn and prideful to a fault and they hate the Dawi for betraying them and abandoning them to face hordes of demons and the great cataclysm alone.
Ungrim: Understands his feelings. lets him take the Oath, then battles him to the death.
Malakai: Understands his feelings. lets him take the Oath, beers all round, takes him on bizarre adventures. Gradually grows to respect his metalwork skills. Is sad when the Chorf eventually achieves his Slayer goal.
Thorgrim: Bears a grudge against him. Settling the grudge is more important than the Oath, so Thorgrim just kills him on the spot.
Grombrindal: Arrives early where he is most needed, i.e. somewhere else. Does not interact with the Chorf.
It's an interesting question.
Next lines:
Ungrim: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!!
Malakai: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! AND TAKE THEIR ARTY
Thorgrim: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!!
Grombrindal: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!!
Belegar: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!!
Thorek: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!!
Garagrim: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!!
Belegar's ghost buddies: DRENG THEM!!! DRENG THEM!!! DRENG THEM!!!
This is why malakai is my favorite, doesn’t he have a diplomacy dialogue where he tells the zharr they aren’t so bad? I want an adventure with Malakai and a chorf now.
Im pretty sure it's on sight for the Chaos Dwarfs, just like it would be for Grobi.
There'd be no parlay, just the thudding of Crossbows, and then every Dawi in the party convincing each other that it was just a particularly ugly 'Orc' that they just turned into a pincushion.
They would grant the Chorf the dignity of fair combat to the death and that's about it. They are, as someone else said, the ultimate oathbreakers. The Dawi-Zharr have committed the unforgivable sin of turning their backs on the ancestor gods (and by extension, all of the connected ancestors whose names and spirits they were attached to).
>*"Not all men are so," said Felix angrily. "True, some seek easy power or fleshly pleasure but they are few. Most people keep the faith. Anyway the Elder Race are not so pure. I have heard tales of armies of dwarfs dedicated to the Ruinous Powers."*
>*Gotrek gave a low angry growl and spat on the ground. Felix gripped the hilt of his sword tighter. He wondered whether he had pushed the Trollslayer too far.*
>*"You are correct," said Gotrek, his voice soft and cold. "We do not lightly talk about such things. We have vowed eternal war against the abominations you mention and their dark masters."*
But there's also a petty reason - the Elder races pride themselves on their surefootedness in the wake of Chaos and evil influences. They look down on the younger races for being so corruptible. The existence of the Dawi-Zharr causes them to lose face to outsiders who bring up this painful fact. The Dawi-Zharr are aware of this and mockingly refer to other dwarves as their "cousins" to remind them that they will always share kinship.
>*‘There will be nothing left, if you let me unleash my pets,’ Khorreg said. Canto grunted at the mention of ‘pets’. The Chaos dwarf was talking about the siege-giants he’d brought from Zharr Naggrund. The idiot brutes had been the work of the daemonsmiths of Zharr Naggrund; Garmr had traded a thousand captives for each of the beasts, and they were, next to the Hell-Worker’s war-engines, some of the Gorewolf’s most prized weapons.*
>*‘And then you can get your engines in position to attack the hold proper?’ Canto asked. Khorreg smiled cruelly.*
>*‘If your warriors can hold the bridge, we can knock down our cousins’ paltry walls....*
>*Canto grimaced at the thought of eating one of the smelly beasts. ‘Once we’re in, how long will it take you to build something more permanent?’*
>*‘A few weeks, more or less,’ Khorreg said confidently. ‘I have no doubt our cousins have the materials within their pathetic hold somewhere.’*
So just to clarify, a slayer is an outcast in Dwarfen society, they have done something so unspeakable that most Dwarfs won't have anything to do with them. They come along to battles in the hopes of dying, but they're not allowed to really integrate into Dwarf society at all. A Chaos Dwarf taking the slayer oath wouldn't mean forgiveness - quite the opposite in fact. He would of course be ALLOWED to take the oath, that's a personal thing, but it wouldn't change anybody's duty. Dwarfs would be oath-bound to settle their grudges with the Dawi-Zharr which would mean killing him. If he was a slayer he would be duty bound to die fighting. It's certainly possible that a Chaos Dwarf would take the slayer oath, but that wouldn't be a way to ingratiate himself to the Karaz Ankor. They would still have to fight each other.
I would agree with this interpretation. If you commit some terrible wrong as a dwarf, and take the slayer oath, USUALLY other dwarves will let you be while they wait for you to die in combat, but no always.
So, my opinion is that the Chaos Dwarf could just take the oath wherever he wanted, then, if ever another dwarf saw him they would try to kill him. I believe in that circumstance the chaos dwarf slayer would not be allowed to 'morally' defend himself, and would have to allow the other dwarves to kill him, thus violating his slayer oath.
I think if a chaos dwarf took the oath, then died fighting a dragon, and THEN a dwarf found his body they would say, "This chaos dwarf made a good start, now the rest of them need to do it"
While of course it depends on the dwarf, generally they would see a chorf as a monster with no honour to regain. Allowing someone to take the slayer oath is an act of compassion. But most dawi wouldn't even pity a truly repentant dawi-zharr. Why should a creature born of chaos be allowed in Grimnir's halls?
Dawi and Drazh-Zharr despise themselves more than Asur and Druchii, because they cant forgive and both feel betrayed and shamed of opposite people.
There is nice fragment for book "Road of Skulls" with Gotrek and Felix about dwarf chorf relations, cant post it now as Im in work but if you want OP I can quote it here later.
Depends on how open is he about being a Chorf. If he changes his beard style and keeps his mouth shut (literally since they often have fangs) he'd propably be treated like a regulard dwarf
Likely not happening in the first place, but if it somehow happens, said chorf is likely instantly turned into swiss cheese/porcupine/mincemeat for betraying the ancestor gods and turning to Hashut in the first place. This is like saying some Norscan marauder goes in front of an Imperial army and says "Can I become a flagellant?"
I'm fairly certain the evil dwarfs are higher on the list of grudges than even the elves, the relationship is irreparably ruined, to the point where I don't think they even speak the same language anymore. It's on sight with chorfs
Even the elves
*EVEN*, LMAO
Elves are mostly distrusted, not hated. They are far and barely relevant, with most egregious grudges against them declared settled at the end of War of Vengeance. The actual top 2 of the Dammaz Kron is Skaven and Greenskins and elves are *nothing* compared to them. So are the Chorfs, actually - with them the problem is about a shame that dwarfs can fall so low, not actual harm they caused (not that there no "normal" grudges against them)
No, the memes are older than that and CA only catered to existing sentiment. Arguably they are not even from Warhammer - I get distinct impression that an average dwarf fan starts with a few superficial memes (including hating elves), then works backwards to find excuses in the lore as he learns the details of dwarfs in this specific setting
I honestly hate Dwarf fans so much, half of them will say dwarves too. No respect for the setting, just want to hate on Elves to play out some sort of racist fantasy they have. They mostly only have a vague idea that the Skaven and Greenskins are the real ancestral enemies of the Dwarfs, just window dressing for the elfposting.
how does this change if it’s a chaos dwarf who openly professes a resentment for their current status, hates that they were born this way, has exiled themself from chorfs, and desperately seeks an out for their damnation to hashut
Weren't there cases of chaos dwarfs turning away from Hashut and being reabsorbed into dwarfen throngs under new names? Iirc, they'd lose their fangs etc.
I think a Dawi Zharr Slayer could maybe play a part in absolving the crimes of his people in the eyes of the Dawi, as weird as it would seem to us modern humans. In fact, I think it could be a somewhat beautiful story of reconciliation based on the sacrifice of a single dwarf, who may not even have done anything bad himself. A martyr like story? I think it could work!
I agree that a Chorf taking the Slayer Oath could make for a cool story, but it’d take a LOT of work to make any Dwarf pause from trying to cave his head in.
The Dawi abandoned the Dawi Zharr to face hordes of demons and the great cataclysm alone. They turned away from the ancestor gods for survival. The Dawi Zharr wouldn’t consider their own existence a crime to be absolved in the eyes of a people who betrayed and left their ancestors to die.
I can easily imagine a dawi zharr finding the whole slavery and exploitation schtick to be bad, and venture out for a better home. Too bad the other dwarfs consider his existence a sin and thus he has to take the slayer oath! Might still be better than chaos dwarfing in the badlands
They enslave greenskins not their own people. A Dawi Zharr wouldn’t consider using orcs and goblins for labour as “bad” you are putting human morals and values into a fantasy race in a fantasy setting and removing their world view.
I mean… every single personality, culture and idea that ever existed has been a human one, so… I don‘t think you take away nuance by humanizing fictional characters, quite the contrary!
Having to remove a characters history, background and the world they exist in to make a story in any way believable is not nuanced it’s just poor story telling. Could write a story about an orc travelling from the far side of Mordor to the shire to live out their dream of opening a flower shop but it wouldn’t be good.
Aye Wazzock, we'll grant you the Oath. Now come closer to my Axe so I can help you fulfil it
^ This.. Peak Dawi here.
Would it be honorable or dishonorable for the Chorf to actually take a fair few down with him?
They wouldn't view a Chorf as anything other than a dishonourable abomination. Dawi aren't in the business of forgiving like Umgi. When they say the Great book of Grudges records every slight and every infraction against the Dawi, they mean it. There can be no admiration, only a reckoning !
And the Dawi Zharr committed an especially egregious sin. Not only did they turn their backs on the ancestor gods, but they willingly submitted to a lesser Chaos God. Let me put it this way. The Dwarfs hate the Orcs and Goblins so much that the very word Urk, means the same thing as "enemy" in Khazalid, that's how much they hate them. Their hatred for them is imprinted in their very language. I bet if you walked into any Dwarf tavern you'd hear half of the conversations being about the Urks in one way or another. The Dwarfs don't speak about the Dawi Zharr. They don't ever talk about them except in very serious hushed tones when absolutely neccessary. The Dawi Zharr are a shame to all Dwarfkind, one they don't like to admit to themselves even exist. The Dwarfs can't ever accept redemption or forgiveness for the Chaos Dwarfs under any circumstances, to do so would just mean showing sympathy for that which stands so opposite to every ideal that the Dwarfs have.
That is the case for adult Chorfs but what about the children or infants. Would they view them the same and just kill them all the same or would they try to reeducate them and make them real Dwarfs again?
>The Dwarfs can't ever accept redemption or forgiveness for the Chaos Dwarfs under any circumstances
Considering that dwarf will take vengeance on the decendents of people who wronged them, being a child is not a redeeming quality
A Dwarf will feel obligated to take vengeance on the descendent of someone that wronged their father or mother. Grudges get passed down through lineages, they do not get forgotten just because someone died and had children. Dwarfs take the Slayer Oath in order to wash away the sin that their father or grandfather committed, they are willing to die for sins they didn't even commit that's how seriously the Dwarfs take this shit. And the severity and seriousness of the grudge against the Dawi Zharr is beyond the max level that you can have in Dwarf society. You could argue the Dwarfs would have more sympathy for Goblins since Goblins can't help themselves but be evil, it's their own sinister little nature. A Chaos Dwarf on the other hand, that was once a Dwarf that broke all of his oaths in order to embrace evil, and the children of someone like that, can't be shown any sympathy at all, not even the kind of theoretical sympathy one might show for a goblin.
I remember reading that the Chaos Dwarfs are such a shameful mark that officially acknowledging that they exist would require the entire Dwarfen civilization to take a collective slayer oath. Not sure if this is supported by official lore though.
I dunno about the second part, but the first part tracks with what I've read. The Dwarfs don't talk about the Chaos Dwarfs. The Dwarfs don't want to admit to themselves that the Chaos Dwarfs exist. The Dwarfs hold the fact that they don't use magic and are clean from chaos taint over the Humans on a comically constant basis. If more humans knew about the Chaos Dwarfs (because most don't) it would be enormously hypocritical of the Dwarfs to constantly pretend that the Humans are somehow less committed to eradicating Chaos than they are.
Do you know of any stories where humans suddenly had dwarfs infront of them trying to kill them without them even knowing why? Just because an ancestor down the line wronged a dwarf? Or would something like this be punished by the empire? Or is there some sort of diplomatic instance where dwarfs and humans could unite to solve this without murder? Going deep in the lore here but it is really interesting.
The Dwarfs don't work that way with Humans. If you've wronged a Dwarf they WILL let you know and they will give you a chance to set things right before it ever comes down to violence. Dwarfs that interact with Humans feel a sense of duty to help the humans flourish first and foremost which goes back to their ancient feeling of gratitude they feel towards Sigmar who saved the Dwarfs in a time of need.
The exact thing he asks about does happen in a canon Warhammer novel, though.
I don't remember it well but this happens in the warhammer novel Masters of Stone and Steel. The king of Zhufbar honors his alliance with an empire baron to assist against a rampaging horde of greenskins raiding his barony. However, when the dwarves and the baron's men confront the greenskin horde, the baron flees in cowardice. The dwarfs defeat the greenskin army, but the king of zhufbar dies in battle. His son declares a grudge against the baron. However, it turns out the new king must settle other grudges before that one. The king also deals with, among other things, a massive skaven siege of zhufbar. Many decades pass but to dwarfs this is not long. Finally the king can march on the baron. The dwarf army shows up storms the barons castle, killing many people and confronting the baron who turns out to be like 6 years old and the grandson of the original one who caused the grudge. None of the humans had any idea why the hell dwarfs were attacking them lol
Dwarfs and Humans share a special relationship. Sigmar helped them a long fucking time ago and now they view humankind as 'their greatest mortal ally, in all things.' and for the most part this is reciprocated by the Empire. To this extent, Dwarfs view humans are strange, erratic, unknowable idiots that mean well. They rationalize this as 'Well, they only live to be 70 years old, I remember how stupid I was when I was 70. Thought I knew everything, I did.' and I'm not joking. Ghal Maraz is a token of exactly how much Dwarfs value their relationship with humans, as it isn't just any warhammer. Ghal Maraz was crafted by the Dwarf God Smednir, and is, if my memory serves, **the greatest dwarf weapon to ever exist.** And they handed it to Sigmar, as a gift.
Grudgebearer. It’s a story about the in game leader of Zhufbar. He razes a city in the empire for betraying his father centuries before. When he finally gets about settling the grudge it’s with the great grandchildren of the betrayer and no human even remembers it happened.
It would be a task that a Dwarf Warrior would be honor bound to carry out, he might find no great joy in it but the taint of Chaos has to be eradicated from all of Dwarfkind, or they will all continue to share in the shame. I think if a Dwarf Warrior actually DID feel sorrow for killing the children of the tainted, that might actually be a reason for taking the Slayer oath himself. That's how important of a duty it is, that Chaos be eradicated from ALL Dwarfs. It's bad enough the Dwarfs ally themselves with Manlings that are so susceptible to dark influences, and even use magic themselves. The Dawi cannot ever allow the taint of Chaos to linger on them, lest their entire species be damned for it.
Gotrek and Felix in Elfslayer see a similar situation from slave dwarves serving druchii overlords. The beardling did redeem himself in a sacrifice to aid Gotrek and Felix saving the empire but before that gotrek had immense disdain for even beardling but much more for his father who "let themselves be captured". It is very much going to depend on the exact dwarf in question. Gotrek has particularly high expectations of other dwarfs. There are some that might disagree and say the child should live but they are in the minority.
Being captured by Elves and being the spawn of a Chaos tainted Dwarf are two different crimes, and the latter is a LOT more serious. If Gotrek felt the way he did about the slave Dwarfs in Elfslayer, imagine how he'd feel about a Chaos Dwarf child?
https://imgur.com/gallery/Jzw2Jef
Chaos dwarves are tainted from birth. Doesn't matter their age they are all deserving of the axe. It's not like these are normal dwarves who choose to worship a chaos God and be assholes. Their entire race is literally tainted by chaos warping their bodies. The tusks, their ability to use magic, and more subtle things like their callous disregard for life and greed are all different from a true dwarf now. It's like if you brought a goblin child before the dwarves and asked the same question
Don’t only kill the men kill the women and children too!
*“Not just the Chorf-men, but the Chorf-women and the Chorf-children too.”*
It’s not a phase Mom!! I’m running away with Sven to Karak Kadrin.
Not just the Chorf men, but the Chorf women, and the Chorf children too.
but the chorfs are not in the great book of grudges, in fact I think they are the only sapient race in the world that has not a single entry in the dammaz kron.
I always figured this was because iirc didn't the chorfs turn to hashut because they were abandoned, and it was that, or death? I assumed the chorfs didn't get written in for turning because it's the dwarfs' dirty secret: the fault is their own, so they'd have to write themselves in the book. The chorfs are the ones with the right to grudge, no? Feel free to correct me of course - TWW got me into fantasy, so I don't have the depth of lore-knowledge that longer going fans will.
Below, SynShot has a good explanation. But i dont know if its ever explicitly stated. I always figured because the Book of Grudges records shames committed against the Dawi. Not shames and grudges committed by the Dawi. The Dawi Zharr are their greatest shame. Its true that the dawi begrudge the chorfs for not dying in combat before becoming tainted by chaos, but the dawi still abandoned them nonetheless.
I think this is incorrect. I believe the reason they aren't in there is because the dishonor is so deep the Dawi won't acknowledge it, even in the book of grudges. What would be the point of putting them in the book anyway? Any Dawi already knows the Dawi-Zharr's existence is the ultimate grudge. The Chorfs being abandoned is irrelevant. It would be sad for them to die, but better to die an honorable death in combat then be tainted with chaos.
It wasn't a death in combat that was the threat though - it was a bunch of settlers' families left to die of thirst, starvation, and the elements out in the darklands colonies, no?
Correct that they weren't an army. Still they were hunkard down due to chaos demons and darkland nastys. If the decision is to wait until starvation, hopefully try to fight your way back to dwarf society, or turn to chaos, you don't pick the last option.
Oh no yeah I'm in total agreement there. Just always wondered since I read it if some of the reason for lack of written grudge is because the shame not only stems from it being kin who have turned to chaos, but also some shame that they feel part of the blame is their own. Just considering the dawi sense of guilt seems to be nearly as strong as their sense of justice, I had to wonder a bit.
They held out against hordes of demons and the great cataclysm for half a millennium without a single answered prayer or any contact from the other dwarfs. They were completely abandoned. Travelling 1000 miles across open wasteland with families in tow during the great cataclysm is not any kind of option. Survival is not so bad.
But are Slayers forgiven? Obviously there's several degrees of how much you fucked up before taking the oath, but generally speaking most dwarves view Slayers as something to be avoided, shunned, etc. When someone takes the oath the rest are just "alright fine I won't kill you then, but I still hate you".
Slayers who fulfill their oaths get to go to the halls of Grimnir. No shot any Dawi is going to even consider letting one of the Dawi Zharr have an opportunity to go there.
The ones who let the Dawi Zharr take the oath would need to take a Slayer oath themselves for disgracing themselves before Grimnir.
LONGBEARDS HAVE FACT-CHECKED THIS POST AND FOUND IT TO BE 100% CORRECT.
*This post has been fact-checked by real Karaz Ankor patriots.*
I don’t think the Dwarfs consider the Chorfs the same race as them, so they wouldn’t entertain the thought of him becoming a Slayer, it’d be like a Skaven taking the Oath, or worse. The only way that would work if is the Chorf took the Oath on his own and Grimnir somehow unmutated him to the point he was essentially a normal Dwarf again, but I don’t think Grimnir would be too forgiving of any Chorf
I think there was a small story about Grimnir and how he viewed the Chorfs in the End Times... I'm gonna see if I can find it.
Sounds intresting, please let us know if you find it.
I can't seem to find it. It may have been some fan story, and not actual canon. I do remember the general idea of the story tho. The long and short of it was, that after Gotrek replaced Grimnir at the Polar Gate, Grimnir was free to go and help during the final battle. After this, he answered a call for help from what he thought was dwarfs. Coming out of a portal from the realms of chaos, he found the survivors from the Chaos Dwarf race (after Grimgor went to town on them), saw their mutations and their shame, and "gave them mercy". If I remember right, there was no malice or hate behind his actions, but sadness and pity. I don't know where I read this bit tho. I can't seem to find it anywhere, but I remember reading it clear as day.
It’s a fan rewrite from an aussie youtube channel
Oh... That explains it. Thanks. I'm guessing majorkill? I watch a lot of lore videos of both Fantasy and 40k, and the first Aussie that comes to mind among YouTubers that makes videos on the topic is majorkill.
It was indeed Majorkill.
To be fair, it was a pretty good rewrite
I remember reading something similar here awhile ago but I'm pretty sure that was the guys own head cannon. Cool idea though.
This is it absolutely. Just like a human wouldn’t be taken seriously if they tried to take the oath. Except that, rather than the reaction being somewhere between laughter with perhaps mild indulgence and hostility, it would be immediate death.
I understand what you're saying but a Skaven slayer sounds fucking radical. A severely mentally ill Ratman that has an excessive amount of honor and decency which drives him to suicidal atonement for his whole species, and it's so intense that Grimnir blesses him as an honorary Dwarf (because Skaven are also so spiteful that it aligns pretty well as it turns out).
Now I'm imagining Ork slayers
So just Orks.
Slayers have to put the good of their people before all, from death to glory to pleasure. Orks can’t look at a fight and go ‘nah, this won’ help da Stuntie Boyz” or turn down dakka.
Huh? this is just wrong, slayers are compelled to find death in glorious combat as quickly as possible, not to help our their people. The only exception to this is Ungrim who's whole deal is that he *does* have to balance his duty to his people as king with his slayer oath.
Death in combat, but not suicidal stupidity to die faster. Their death has to be useful to the Dwarf race or their allies in the Empire. They can’t immediately go charge headfirst into the path of a Seeker Chariot on purpose even if its technically a glorious death in battle. Or just attack kinsmen in a bar ten minutes after the Oath. Orks are in it for the fight, doesn’t matter against who or why.
It absolutely does not have to be useful, the ideal slayer seeks out some monster and gets killed in their first battle, that's the whole deal. The slayers who win battles and keep making themselves useful are bad slayers. (And obviously they're not supposed to lose on purpose, but they are supposed to lose.)
A Slayer who’s lived a long time is one who isn’t trying hard enough, not one who’s managed to defeat many foes. The Battle For Skull Pass novel depicts this. Gotrek is just a jackass, projecting his own self-judgement on Snorri and Malakai. The redemption comes from their use, not simply by dying. Given the entire tradition is based on Grimnir saving the world by holding off the hordes of Chaos by himself it wouldn’t make sense for the tradition to just be to die as fast as possible on the technicality that it happened during a battle or against a monster.
On another note, could and elf with okaish relation with the dwarfs (tolerated) take the slayer oath?
I feel like the dwarfs would still say "You Elgi don't understand the Slayer Oaths any more than you understand a proper beard." And say no. And the lore I've been reading recently supports that they might be *right*- Dwarfs have *weird lore* about a physical inability to commit or even consider suicide, by action or by passive lack thereof. Slayers apparently don't need to go fight for the dwarfs to die just for cultural reason, but because they *physically have no other way they can seek death*, nor are they capable of giving anything less than their genuine best effort to fight, even as they desire nothing more than to be slaughtered right here and now. Warhammer is weird, man.
Basically would look like a Savage Orc.
Except that dwarfs do care about the oaths that other races make. Gotrek and Felix, Snorri Whitebeard and Malekith (Malearion whatever), we see that dwarfs do care very much about the oaths of others. Would they actually trust that a chorf would uphold his new oath and act like a proper slayer? Probably not, but I imagine that at least certain dwarf lords would give him the chance to do so. I easily see Ungrim and Grombrindal letting him take the oath, but I could also see Thorgrim or Thorek just killing him on the spot.
Nor would hashut for the betrayal, so your odds of surviving long enough to even take the oath arent great. Not to mention that from the Dawi-Zharrs point of view, it was the dwarfs that betrayed them and broke their oath, and while a lot has changed for the Dawi-Zharr, theyve kept their almost instinctual vengeful streak.
From my point of view the Dawi are evil! Then you are truly lost!
And I quote: "nut em if they get close!". - unknown thunderer, battle of Uzkulak, turn 12.
Chorfs are tainted by chaos, no way normal dawi will tolerate them at all.
Is the whole race tainted, or just the sorcerers? I mean, how much of thst is culture and how much actual chaos corruption?
Most of regular chorfs have some kind of mutation, like tusks or horns afaik
I thought I saw something where Hashut owns their souls from birth. The sorcerers using magic is what turns them to stone but they are all corrupted by Hashut from birth.
Chaos dwarfs would be killed on sight by a ranger long before he ever got to a main throng.
Chorfs are soulbound to Hashut at birth, so most if not all chorfs will fight tooth and nail to enjoy life till their damnation, but pretending for some reason that doesn't happen and they want to seek redemption. Dwarfs hold oaths above all else, to the point if one human goes back on their word, they may no longer trust that town or even humans in general depending in the situation. Trusting a dawi-zarr who betrayed their own race? Who is unsupported by the ancestor gods? That's a grudgin.
Wouldn't happen because the goal of the slayer oath is to regain your lost honor in the eyes of the gods and your ancestors. A Chaos Dwarf doesn't have any honor to begin with, neither does his family and they have forsaken the gods, there's nothing there to reclaim. The only thing a chaos dwarf can do is hope for a swift death in the eyes of normal dwarfs.
A chaos dwarf has their own honour and their own god they just wouldn’t care what a Dawi thinks of them. They’d be more interested in beating them and taking them home for sacrifice.
Not sure why you are being downvoted on that. The Infernal Guard is literally their equivalent of Slayers, the difference being that they can redeem themselves in Chorf society without dying, which I believe Castellans fall under the former Infernal Guard redeemed ones within their society.
Think it’s just misunderstanding. The chaos dwarf has no honour in the eyes of the dwarf but the chaos dwarf has their own honour system within their own society. A lot of the discussion here is taken from the dwarfs perspective not considering that the dwarfs and chaos dwarfs are two completely seperate peoples and societies separated by thousands of years and miles. The difference between slayers and infernal guard as you’re saying is a solid example.
The Dawi Zharr already turned their backs on the ancestor gods. They're the ultimate oathbreakers as a race in the eyes of the Dawi. Why would they even consider the request to be genuine, much less allow them to make an oath to follow in the footsteps of an ancestor they've already betrayed once? Further, the Dawi Zharr wouldn't even be capable of making the request or considering doing so. They're (willing) slaves to Hashut, even if they don't say so. Bound to Hashut's will from birth, they're as incapable of turning their backs on their new god now as the Dawi are of forgiveness.
Not doubting a word of this, but damn, what utterly, utterly bleak worldbuilding. It's not a setting big on self-determination or free will, is it?
When it comes to Chaos there really is no breaking free or redemption for any one. I think there was a story where a High Elf cleansed all chaos corruption from a Chaos Warrior and that warrior was instantly turned to Chaos Spawn. Its an example of there is no escape or redemption from it.
it really isnt. even the good guys. I think some wizard and maybe engineer characters are the only ones that do things their own way.
I mean I love these games, but it'll always be the thing I find the most dissonant about WFB and 40k - that so many fans genuinely love that these worlds are so deterministic and grim and cheerfully ready to consign entire races to being beyond salvation, that so many people are, through absolutely no fault of their own, lost to chaos from the moment of their conception with no hope of ever making their own choice. Don't mean to harsh on anyone's yums, it's a perfectly valid thing to enjoy in a setting but damn if it isn't beyond my comprehension and more than a bit offputting for me.
i think it pushes it so far it doesnt feel real. I dont want to read a story about domestic violence or cancer diagnosis cuz that hits too close to home, but someone getting melted by magic moon-rock acid fired from a cannon built by a 6 foot rat-man is safely something I probably wont have to deal with irl. I kinda get it though. I'm not really into horror movie violence/gore but I can kinda see the popcorn fakeness of it.
You get shades of gray in a lot of places, but it is refreshingly simple black and white. It gets really tiring after the 20th "YOu cAn'T kiLl gOBliN bAbIEs!" In a setting where people are fighting for desperate survival, people don't think twice. Its morality is completely foreign to modern bleeding hearts.
This is literally just a morality question that we can't have on earth. If skaven killed my family irl I'd have no trepidation burn-killing skaven. ...but there's no skaven on earth. Just people with a common humanity. And honestly, if they killed my family I might kill them too, I am just lucky enough to live somewhere safe enough
I mean...we used to do this on earth. Wiping out tribes or other nations in the early days of history. Hell, acts of cultural or actual genocide still happen to this day. People moan about it, but its still very much happening.
A great many things in Warhammer are a satire on British society both past and present. The lack of basically any social mobility always struck me as a parody of how important class was historically (and can be to some degree still) in the uk. Not part of the aristocracy? Commoner. Unworthy of a higher station, and who’s purpose in life should be to serve and die for his betters. Same in Warhammer.
A DawiZharr would never approach the Dawi essentially asking for forgiveness and to reclaim honour. Their cultures are seperated by thousands of years but they are still stubborn and prideful to a fault and they hate the Dawi for betraying them and abandoning them to face hordes of demons and the great cataclysm alone.
Dreng the wazzok.
Would be kill on site. If a skaven tried to pull this trick, it would amount to the same result...a fine axe to the neck!
They would kill ~~him~~ it on sight
Ungrim: Understands his feelings. lets him take the Oath, then battles him to the death. Malakai: Understands his feelings. lets him take the Oath, beers all round, takes him on bizarre adventures. Gradually grows to respect his metalwork skills. Is sad when the Chorf eventually achieves his Slayer goal. Thorgrim: Bears a grudge against him. Settling the grudge is more important than the Oath, so Thorgrim just kills him on the spot. Grombrindal: Arrives early where he is most needed, i.e. somewhere else. Does not interact with the Chorf. It's an interesting question.
Ungrim: DRENG THEM!!! Malakai: DRENG THEM!!! Thorgrim: DRENG THEM!!! Grombrindal: DRENG THEM!!! Belegar: DRENG THEM!!! Thorek: DRENG THEM!!! Garagrim: DRENG THEM!!! Belegar's ghost buddies: DRENG THEM!!!
This guy Dawi's.
Next lines: Ungrim: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! Malakai: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! AND TAKE THEIR ARTY Thorgrim: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! Grombrindal: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! Belegar: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! Thorek: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! Garagrim: CUT THEIR BEARDS!!! Belegar's ghost buddies: DRENG THEM!!! DRENG THEM!!! DRENG THEM!!!
This is why malakai is my favorite, doesn’t he have a diplomacy dialogue where he tells the zharr they aren’t so bad? I want an adventure with Malakai and a chorf now.
My best friend and I are doing a Malakai/Chorf co-op campaign right now. It's been hella fun
Im pretty sure it's on sight for the Chaos Dwarfs, just like it would be for Grobi. There'd be no parlay, just the thudding of Crossbows, and then every Dawi in the party convincing each other that it was just a particularly ugly 'Orc' that they just turned into a pincushion.
They would grant the Chorf the dignity of fair combat to the death and that's about it. They are, as someone else said, the ultimate oathbreakers. The Dawi-Zharr have committed the unforgivable sin of turning their backs on the ancestor gods (and by extension, all of the connected ancestors whose names and spirits they were attached to). >*"Not all men are so," said Felix angrily. "True, some seek easy power or fleshly pleasure but they are few. Most people keep the faith. Anyway the Elder Race are not so pure. I have heard tales of armies of dwarfs dedicated to the Ruinous Powers."* >*Gotrek gave a low angry growl and spat on the ground. Felix gripped the hilt of his sword tighter. He wondered whether he had pushed the Trollslayer too far.* >*"You are correct," said Gotrek, his voice soft and cold. "We do not lightly talk about such things. We have vowed eternal war against the abominations you mention and their dark masters."* But there's also a petty reason - the Elder races pride themselves on their surefootedness in the wake of Chaos and evil influences. They look down on the younger races for being so corruptible. The existence of the Dawi-Zharr causes them to lose face to outsiders who bring up this painful fact. The Dawi-Zharr are aware of this and mockingly refer to other dwarves as their "cousins" to remind them that they will always share kinship. >*‘There will be nothing left, if you let me unleash my pets,’ Khorreg said. Canto grunted at the mention of ‘pets’. The Chaos dwarf was talking about the siege-giants he’d brought from Zharr Naggrund. The idiot brutes had been the work of the daemonsmiths of Zharr Naggrund; Garmr had traded a thousand captives for each of the beasts, and they were, next to the Hell-Worker’s war-engines, some of the Gorewolf’s most prized weapons.* >*‘And then you can get your engines in position to attack the hold proper?’ Canto asked. Khorreg smiled cruelly.* >*‘If your warriors can hold the bridge, we can knock down our cousins’ paltry walls....* >*Canto grimaced at the thought of eating one of the smelly beasts. ‘Once we’re in, how long will it take you to build something more permanent?’* >*‘A few weeks, more or less,’ Khorreg said confidently. ‘I have no doubt our cousins have the materials within their pathetic hold somewhere.’*
So just to clarify, a slayer is an outcast in Dwarfen society, they have done something so unspeakable that most Dwarfs won't have anything to do with them. They come along to battles in the hopes of dying, but they're not allowed to really integrate into Dwarf society at all. A Chaos Dwarf taking the slayer oath wouldn't mean forgiveness - quite the opposite in fact. He would of course be ALLOWED to take the oath, that's a personal thing, but it wouldn't change anybody's duty. Dwarfs would be oath-bound to settle their grudges with the Dawi-Zharr which would mean killing him. If he was a slayer he would be duty bound to die fighting. It's certainly possible that a Chaos Dwarf would take the slayer oath, but that wouldn't be a way to ingratiate himself to the Karaz Ankor. They would still have to fight each other.
I would agree with this interpretation. If you commit some terrible wrong as a dwarf, and take the slayer oath, USUALLY other dwarves will let you be while they wait for you to die in combat, but no always. So, my opinion is that the Chaos Dwarf could just take the oath wherever he wanted, then, if ever another dwarf saw him they would try to kill him. I believe in that circumstance the chaos dwarf slayer would not be allowed to 'morally' defend himself, and would have to allow the other dwarves to kill him, thus violating his slayer oath. I think if a chaos dwarf took the oath, then died fighting a dragon, and THEN a dwarf found his body they would say, "This chaos dwarf made a good start, now the rest of them need to do it"
Death. Because the Dawi-Zharr are a grudge themselves and must be wronged in their cousins eyes.
Not good enough for the insane moral system of the dawi, killed on the spot.
You don't need anyone's permission to make the oath. If a chorf felt the need to do so they could take the oath themselves.
Do they not have to make the pilgrimage to Karak Kadrin's slayer shrine to make the oath?
While of course it depends on the dwarf, generally they would see a chorf as a monster with no honour to regain. Allowing someone to take the slayer oath is an act of compassion. But most dawi wouldn't even pity a truly repentant dawi-zharr. Why should a creature born of chaos be allowed in Grimnir's halls?
Dawi and Drazh-Zharr despise themselves more than Asur and Druchii, because they cant forgive and both feel betrayed and shamed of opposite people. There is nice fragment for book "Road of Skulls" with Gotrek and Felix about dwarf chorf relations, cant post it now as Im in work but if you want OP I can quote it here later.
Depends on how open is he about being a Chorf. If he changes his beard style and keeps his mouth shut (literally since they often have fangs) he'd propably be treated like a regulard dwarf
I think the dwarfs would smell the stink of chaos from ten miles against the wind, they wouldn't let him anywhere near
Well, Slayers smell in general, whatever it is alcohol, chaos or piss.
Het
This would make for a sick short story!
[This.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60F61RRPHXs)
Likely not happening in the first place, but if it somehow happens, said chorf is likely instantly turned into swiss cheese/porcupine/mincemeat for betraying the ancestor gods and turning to Hashut in the first place. This is like saying some Norscan marauder goes in front of an Imperial army and says "Can I become a flagellant?"
They will immediately give them the honorable death they crave
I'm fairly certain the evil dwarfs are higher on the list of grudges than even the elves, the relationship is irreparably ruined, to the point where I don't think they even speak the same language anymore. It's on sight with chorfs
Even the elves *EVEN*, LMAO Elves are mostly distrusted, not hated. They are far and barely relevant, with most egregious grudges against them declared settled at the end of War of Vengeance. The actual top 2 of the Dammaz Kron is Skaven and Greenskins and elves are *nothing* compared to them. So are the Chorfs, actually - with them the problem is about a shame that dwarfs can fall so low, not actual harm they caused (not that there no "normal" grudges against them)
Yes, this sub overestimates the hate between dwarfs and elves.
That's mostly on CA for playing it up with Imrik and the IE trailer
No, the memes are older than that and CA only catered to existing sentiment. Arguably they are not even from Warhammer - I get distinct impression that an average dwarf fan starts with a few superficial memes (including hating elves), then works backwards to find excuses in the lore as he learns the details of dwarfs in this specific setting
I honestly hate Dwarf fans so much, half of them will say dwarves too. No respect for the setting, just want to hate on Elves to play out some sort of racist fantasy they have. They mostly only have a vague idea that the Skaven and Greenskins are the real ancestral enemies of the Dwarfs, just window dressing for the elfposting.
REDEMPTION? IN WARHAMMER? HAHAHAH
how does this change if it’s a chaos dwarf who openly professes a resentment for their current status, hates that they were born this way, has exiled themself from chorfs, and desperately seeks an out for their damnation to hashut
Weren't there cases of chaos dwarfs turning away from Hashut and being reabsorbed into dwarfen throngs under new names? Iirc, they'd lose their fangs etc.
"Congratulations creature. You have found the doom you seek!" (Fires crossbows)
Oh look, it's the new porcupine.
I think a Dawi Zharr Slayer could maybe play a part in absolving the crimes of his people in the eyes of the Dawi, as weird as it would seem to us modern humans. In fact, I think it could be a somewhat beautiful story of reconciliation based on the sacrifice of a single dwarf, who may not even have done anything bad himself. A martyr like story? I think it could work!
I agree that a Chorf taking the Slayer Oath could make for a cool story, but it’d take a LOT of work to make any Dwarf pause from trying to cave his head in.
"In fact, I think" Call me old fashioned but this is not how it works.
The Dawi abandoned the Dawi Zharr to face hordes of demons and the great cataclysm alone. They turned away from the ancestor gods for survival. The Dawi Zharr wouldn’t consider their own existence a crime to be absolved in the eyes of a people who betrayed and left their ancestors to die.
I can easily imagine a dawi zharr finding the whole slavery and exploitation schtick to be bad, and venture out for a better home. Too bad the other dwarfs consider his existence a sin and thus he has to take the slayer oath! Might still be better than chaos dwarfing in the badlands
They enslave greenskins not their own people. A Dawi Zharr wouldn’t consider using orcs and goblins for labour as “bad” you are putting human morals and values into a fantasy race in a fantasy setting and removing their world view.
Preposterous idea that a fictional character in a fictional setting could be nuanced!
You’re taking the nuance out of their character by making them into a generic “human” archetype, not adding it.
I mean… every single personality, culture and idea that ever existed has been a human one, so… I don‘t think you take away nuance by humanizing fictional characters, quite the contrary!
Having to remove a characters history, background and the world they exist in to make a story in any way believable is not nuanced it’s just poor story telling. Could write a story about an orc travelling from the far side of Mordor to the shire to live out their dream of opening a flower shop but it wouldn’t be good.
Only now do I realize that there‘s a real life religion based on a story very much like this. So yes, I think this story would indeed work.