They have the most legendary lords after WoC and have the same number of dlcs as skaven. It might literally only be geomantic Web + some more engaging lord-specific campaign abilities (mazdamundi got nothing, neither does Kroq but I don't play kroq for deep mechanics, Gor-rok has nothing, Tehenuin does but its kinda shit, TikTakTo has nothing, the only 2 lords with actually strong faction mechanics are the karma chameleon and floridas chosen champion)
Yeah just small touch and they are done. Meanwhile race, which is with us since wh1, received one lousy dlc with 1 boring lord and bad mechanics and one, which was never actually touched. It’s some of the youtubers, who appeared out of nowhere during wh3, shit video after video, pretend they know it all and give the new players these ideas. Like that a race, which can only field second army with no upkeep turn 14 is weak. Like wtf? If i can field 2nd full stack as Franz turn 14 i am a god and i still have to pay an upkeep :D
why need an economy when you have 0 upkeep? I played their vortex campaign and past turn 10 killing the first enemy with T0 units, I was just rolling over everything.
I could trade with many factions, and even half the buildings are free as well anyway.
I keep seeing people bring up tomb kings and saying economy is their primary reason and if that's the case then its entirely people who dont know HOW to play tomb kings and quickly skipped through the prompts at the start of the campaign that told you that. Tomb kings economy isnt a problem. Are they SUPER strong? no, are they somehow weak? No... if you think they're weak you might not be very good at the game.
You really don't need much of an economy for them. Your units cost nothing and have no upkeep. I don't even usually build an economic building with them. You can make the money you need to build your military buildings off of battle typically and eventually your economy will still start to snowball as the campaign progresses.
you still need to spend it to get your recruitment buildings to increase your unit caps as well as other buildings. Its just you don't need to build much in terms of economic infrastructure.
They have really good chariots in the early game, but have no way to push the chariots into the late game, so there’s no reason to build around the chariots for the late game tomb kings. That’s the single issue with them that bothers me.
Basically right, but add Lizardmen and Bretonnia. Everybody else is in a pretty good spot. I see people complain about VCoast sometimes, I’m having a blast with Noctilus rn.
Hmm it’s a tough one. I know it’s everyone’s preference as to who they love the most, but for me Norsca are just a worse version of warriors of chaos. I’d be much happier seeing them bring tomb kings back to life or even make brettonia fun. But sympathy goes out to all the Norsca fans. I hope you get your dlc at some point.
IMO, norsca isn’t really a faction. It’s a sub-faction whose main purpose was to get ~~visualized~~ vassalized by WOC in WH1.
They gave us wulfric and the troll dude so we could dink around with them, but at the end of the day they were never really meant to be anything more than that.
Again though, just my opinion.
\*\*Edit: autocorrect
May I ask why tho? You get better troll gameplay from grom and big monster stuff with kholek or lizardmen or even rakarth/imrik. Their settlement limits on the coast means you can't expand easily and their best units lose to most equivalent teired units. Their best unit is elephants and even they are only suer strong with a ridiculously expensive army that would be better served with 3 less expensive armies. Mostly curious.
Because they have some sick lore and mammoths are cool? Everything you just listed as a negative is gameplay mechanic stuff that could be changed by a rework and roster update
Seriously, "mammoth-riding vikings, and also werewolves". Plus a lord specifically for building armies of trolls. We need more (and more unique) trolls.
Norsca is just a lot of unrealized potential for a unique and fun faction.
Not to mention the fimir and the fact that there is amazing potential for another dynamic, making another side you can create to the order and chaos struggle. Liek you could lean either way or just create a 3rd side
Exactly what i fucking want, make Norsca a viking faction that can either choose to go Chaos and get their benefits or stick to order (There's Ulrician Norscans) that gets more income and supply. or just let em fight both as the true northmen faction.
CA should try to distant them from more chaos to be the human equivalent of Orcs, lots of fighting,lots of gold and lots of ale. As of now, they're just diet WOC which fucking sucks.
The Fimir are super cool and remind me of some kind of 80's fantasy bad guys that belong in a world like The Dark Crystal, I wish there was a Lord and a couple more variants of them. There is always mods though.
Cause I like Wulfrik and just the general raiding vibe they got going on. WofC are just kind of stereotypical “I am evil and will eat your kids” kinda vibe, while Norsca is more like “I will get rich from you” vibe. As well as me just enjoying that you don’t really expand with them, what you should do is hit the enemies Capital, use it to get your technology and cripple the enemy. Then break them apart. Honestly, the only pain is actually having settlements with norsca, since I have to keep an army there to bat away any invaders.
I presume they're talking about [Tribes of the North](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3236566964). It's an absolutely amazing mod, though it doesn't fix how patently unfun Norsca currently is.
Norsca's main appeal and gimmick was that it was a more fleshed out chaos faction in WHI when warriors of chaos were w basic bitch horde faction. In comparison to them, Norscan mechanics were engaging.
For me it comes down to aesthetics, lore, and monsters. Norscans are actually people, they may worship the same gods as the WOC, but they aren't nearly as deep into sin as them. In lore there are norscan settlements and traders who actually work with the Empire and Tilea such as Skeggi (which is a city where both Sigmar and the chaos gods have shrines). If you want a caveman/naturalistic look nobody does it better, WOC are just murderous tin cans. For units they just have better monsters than the WOC do. You get chaos dragons as a standalone unit, Throgg buffs trolls enough (and comparing anyone's buffs to Groms is unfair), skinwolves are outstanding, and mammoths need no introduction. Then you have WOC who have 1.5 unique monsters (both dragon ogre variants).
They have monster hunts and the devote to gods mechanic that actually does stuff unlike the Demons of chaos plus the fact that they aren’t insanely overpowered like WoC. I much prefer them over warriors as is
Why do TK need a dlc?
They have good units.
They are a unique race.
Each faction plays very differently (only settra and khalida feel similar)
They are all very strong.
They are not perfect, sure, but I've never understood why people ask TK of all factions to get a rework
I wouldn't mind a slot in a lord pack to grab the last few named characters we are missing but I don't think we are missing much for actual units. The army plays solidly as well.
If they want to bring Wulfric and Throgg into WoC thats fine with me. I just want their mechanics, units, and campaigns modernized.
Having a strongly Viking-themed WoC LL in Wulfric and a all-trolls-all-the-time one for Throgg would be enough. It could be an undercard for a bigger DLC release.
There are a few LL options available plus I would live the tech tree to get a rework. It's based on TWWH2 where factions could usually field less armies. I'd also like to see some interesting mechanics to play with. The books of negash only really make sense to Arkan the Black. Plus let me confederate the other factions without mods. Building an empire and uniting the dynasties is what I want to do as them and it's unfortunate that I have to turn to modders to get that.
Give the French something besides men on horses. I don't dislike that they're cavalry focused but the Empire is gun focused and they have other good shit too. Foot knights, peasant hunters (peasants who use bows to hunt not nobles who hunt the poor), etc.
They don’t really feel like they have the options that several other factions do. Like vampires you’re throwing a whole bunch of chaff at your opponent until you get your more viable units like UGBs and Necrosphinxes (shout out to casket of souls for being kickass though). Tough unit caps on your only good units too. Some good melee infantry would be cool. As it stands it’s mostly just meat shields.
Then there’s the issue of the painfully slow start. I get the units have no upkeep, but the resulting near lack of economy means I can barely build my cities up either. I could have 2 armies of dwarves with huge upkeep early game and still be expanding cities faster than the tomb kings when they’re not spending money on anything else. Which is a bit at odds with their lore and aesthetic because they’ve got golden everything. Nehekara was rich. I know there’s the snowball argument and that’s a legitimate one but it’s still slow as balls and your late game armies won’t beat many other faction’s late game armies due to unit differences.
They’re my favorite faction for sure for preference reasons but several other factions are just more fun to *play* like dwarves or skaven. I’m not exactly sure how I would fix them, but I think there’s easily so much potential and existing units in lore and tabletop that aren’t in the game that CA could definitely do it. Plus they’re reasonably popular.
Oh and they should be able to do necromancy. That’s like, their thing. It’s weird that they can’t. I know it’s not vampire necromancy but you know.
Norsca is vert Interesting as the baseline race mechanics (monster hunts, devotion mechanic) economy and even the current roster is actually very good. Ideally the biggest thing we could do with is a way to access am undivided path in the devotion and maybe being fully devoted to a god gives you access to some god aligned units
The two main problems is the current units need another tier rebalancing (bring things like giants, fimir maybe feral mammoths to t3, etc) and it's just old and stale, and simply needs more content; it's just wulfrik (who doesn't really exemplify his wanderer nature, mainly the "marauder lord") and throgg (who needs access to ALL Troll units worldwide).
I'm personally in the idea of changing norsca to "tribes of Chaos" and adding factions from kurgan and Hung. LL like Sayl the faithless, Akoroak the Crow, etc.
I'd prefer it if they focused on the 'Norse' aspect like valkyries and werebears. It'll make them more unique instead of just half naked WoC with horses
Bretonnia.
Very basic mechanics, the least interesting "Legendary Hero" (Green Knight) in the game, one Lord that is completely forgettable and a really bland roster (though this is more of GW's fault than CA's).
The most difficult thing too is because they're a fully FLC culture it's hard to think of when CA can give them a thorough polish since they probably don't want to ever make *paid* DLC for Bretonnia.
Now that isn't to say that the culture is weak or lacks flavor. There are some very powerful things that they do despite a very shallow roster but mechanically they feel very far behind pretty much everyone else now.
They are bland but at the same time if you take them to the late game they are stupid OP. No supply lines penalty. Alberic with his port bonus can get an insane economy and rule out high seas attrition. Their wedge formation will absolutely annihilate infantry formations. Someone in CA loves them. They just need some rites and the vows need to be less restrictive and shit because we always pick the easiest ones to achieve
Feel like they could get good value out of an Abhorash/Bretonnia dual update for VC and Bret at the same time. Thematically it’ll draw a lot of people who like the whole medieval knight quest fantasy
It doubly hurts that cavalry or so weak and the lack of flat, open maps (so many sieges, settlements and forested maps, not to mention how small they all are) make the dream of re-living medieval 2 cavalry doomstacks impossible.
And given they tried to rework cavalry and all it did was make chariots better, I can't see Brettonia reaching it's potential for a long time.
Bretonnian cavalry are amazing, what are you on about? I do agree there are some maps that feel too small for full cavalry stacks but Bretonnia's cavalry is anything but weak. Their basic low tier knight cavalry outclasses a lot of other faction's high tier cavalry.
Wulfrik should boost Marauders like Ghost boosts zombies or Grom goblins. His stack should be mostly mammoths, skin wolves and Marauders. Throgg, possibly my most played LL needs more trolls and troll mechanics.
Not saying I don't agree but I had quite a lot of fun with Throgg through the gift of Slannesh (I think) on all my trolls making them run around about as fast as heavy Cav all with Regen and devastating flanker.
Chaos Dwarfs... I kid, i kid!
I think Norsca > Vampire Counts >Tomb Kings.
As for factions that need some middle sized fixes, like Dark Elf slave mechanic and Lizardmen Web mechanic, all just need to be spiced up a bit.
I said the same thing in another comment thread, but basically I believe they were never meant to be their own faction.
Instead, they were intended to be a subfaction to make WOC more ominous and interesting in WH1. They raid the northern borders of the empire/kislev/bretonnia until WOC comes along and ~~visualizes~~ vassalizes them all into a huge horde.
*Edit: autocorrect
I like this idea
Wh1- I gotta fever, norsca
Wh2- I got a drip, WoC
Wh3- full blown Chaos, and the only fix is more cowbells.
So humor aside it does fit the trajectory in retrospect.
Norsca has been a mess since the introduction. They were the wh2 pre-order race, but it took them forever to get them into wh2 because of coding issues between the two games. Once they were brought in, their mechanics that made a ton of sense in wh1 just didn't translate to the larger map. Not to mention, the pre-order race still doesn't work on the Vortex map.
Vampire Coast, it's just a plain poorly thought out faction that is artificially nerfed, as is Tomb Kings.
The thing is Norsca is extremely powerful, just they have a notorious reputation due to Monster Hunts never working properly.
TBH i never felt Norsca is missing anything except like you said, Monster Hunt is f\*ck (but the idea is ok).
Vampire Coast- why the f\*ck i can't attack/ sack city from the sea and i need to get on land?
Tomb Kings- also strong, why nerfed?
Dude for real I just finished another vampire coast thing and I spent the early game attacking and establishing pirate coves to get easy levels on my TT horde lords. Not only did I have to go to shore to attack port settlements I also got stuck in their stupid area of influence and had to sack them for piddly coin just to regain any movement range and keep the pirate cove that I came there for.
Funny how Tomb Kings were considered really cool and unique with their mechanics on launch... that DLC was widely praised as the most fleshed out to date. Just show how the game had grown in complexity.
I agree with this. Only one kind of generic lord kind of sucks (but isn't even a problem unique to them) and their tech tree needs to be completely retooled imo, but otherwise I think they're in a fine spot.
Dang I loved my tomb kings Champaign, still haven't done vampire coast. What makes tomb kings so weak I dumpstered my competition in my legendary campaign
Tomb kings aren't weak or strong imo I find them perfectly balanced, even if you somehow end up losing a battle with the realm of souls you definitely deal good damage to the enemy and your units are free to recruit and upkeep and all your characters are immortal just gotta protect your lands.
I assume in part because of the slow time it takes to get to new armies, unlock the highest tier units etc. I don't mind this so much - I think it part of their playstyle over a nerf, and it does give the feeling of rebuilding a civilisation - but given how fast-paced some of the other factions are, like Khorne, it can leave you on the backfoot.
I played TK recently and enjoyed them - hastening their development a little bit, but not enough they lose the unique style, would help make them more competitive imo.
Play franz for a while, if you can field second full stack before turn 14 you are a god! And you pay no upkeep and can freely improve your towns, franz can’t….
Aha I'm playing Empire right now with a friend & i certainly feel that pain. Each playstyle comes with its own limitations and its benefits - I just think the TK could have there's updated, not removed.
Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast both suffer because they were introduced back when supply lines were much more expensive.
They're two factions that are heavily encouraged to build a few strong armies which worked really well in WH2, but in WH3 you're much more encouraged to build multiple cheap armies. Hell, with some factions just grab a few lords and drag them around with your main army for the first 10-20 turns. They're super cost effective now and will be leveled when you can give them an army.
The new meta makes TK and VC much weaker compared to where they were.
well for example Tamarkun's victory trait is about 50 turns worth of Canopic Jars alone. Tomb Kings limits to heroes, units and armies is absurd comparative to any faction that just spawns armies out of thin air, as virtually all, including Empire and Dwarfs, can now do.
It's not necessarily that Tomb Kings are bad, because the AI is insanely stupid still. Even if the worth case scenario like Skarbrand going after you early game, you can still just ambush him at your cities as Settra with a full stack and wipe him out in auto-resolve, but *if* the AI wasn't brain-dead and used it's mechanics properly, Tomb Kings are by far the weakest faction and wouldn't have a hope in hell fighting many of the factions in the game. If you lose some of your key units, or Casket of Souls early in the campaign, there is no point in continuing as it's basically over.
Ogres top the list, which is good they are getting dlc
Norsca next, but tbh they only need a few small things.
They need to make all monster hunts active in parallel (instead of arbitrary one at a time limit)
They need to allow you to complete all the devotions to Gods and unlock all 4 rewards.
They need at least a second (maybe even third) generic lord option.
They don't really NEED extra units but that feels like a staple for all DLCs and of course would be nice so they will likely get that.
And they either need a tech tree rework to reduce durations or they need more ways to increase research rate. Their techs take WAY too long right now.
Then they are set. They really aren't as bad as people say, their port income is insane and one turn ice trolls global recruit is whack. Plus they have strong units, strong lords, strong heroes, super strong confederation mechanics, super strong techs that give insane global boosts, etc.
They are actually one of the super easiest campaigns despite all the hate they get.
They do. A shitton. They are in books, novels, short stories, and army books. Their wiki page is itself as long as a book. People are too f lazy to use google I guess.
I think mechanically Norsca is fine and have some cool and unique stuff. They need more units and finally more lord and hero types. It is insane to me that one of the oldest races in the series has only one (!!!) generic lord type.
Vampire Counts.
At least the other contenders (Norsca, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, Bretonia and the Ogres) are all DLC factions.
Vampire Counts are a Base Race from Warhammer 1, yet they have only ever had one paid DLC which was 8 years ago... and it was Helman Ghorst...
No other Base Race is even close to Vampire Counts for the lack of attention they have been given.
WH1 player spotted. It’s honestly insane, how long counts have to wait. I am getting annoyed. NORSCA needs help for sure, but if somebody mentions TKs or Lizzards before those 2 races my blood pressure rises up :D
I said in the thing but I thought it would be awesome if they added more units a lord. And made them able to summon special sea lanes to temporarily speed across the map to get to wherever they need to go to raid
A mix, I'd imagine.
There are some 8th edition Chaos units for CA to draw on, as they did when they created Norsca - Fimir Noble (Lord), and monsters like the Chimera, Basilisk and Cursed E'ttin. There are older edition Chaos units not represented yet, such as the Flayerkin. CA also took the Slayer Pirates and Goblin Hewer from Dogs of War, so they could also introduce were-bears as based on the Bjorg Bearstruck and the Bearmen of Urslo, which were Chaos DoW units.
Then there are those mentioned in the lore but which never had a tabletop model, which CA could use - Shield Maidens, Ymir etc. This would take some invention on their side.
Also Flayerkin (infantry) , bondsmen (Stronger infantry) and Freeholders (basically Norscan Knights).
Warhammer Fantasy roleplay 2ed „Tome of Corruption“ has also some very good ideas about norsca, but Norscas are more of a „background“ for Chaos Warriors instead of a realm faction. Even the kings and Jarls (nobles) of Norsca are Chaos Lords/Champions and Chaos Chosen.
Honestly, fucking Cathay (minus the green man). They both have the same "defend the wall" mechanic, but Zhao is miles from it and is always at war with Ku'Gath and Ghorst. Then Zathan and Vilitch kill Miao and Grimgor cleans house (which is at least canonical).
What needs to happen is a buff to T3-5 of the wall (ideally removing peasants and cav, swapping in Jade soldiers and at t5 adding the yellow ones, and maybe swapping the cav out for the flying cav at least) and to give Zhao another actual campaign mechanic.
without even considering these actual facts, Cathay is still missing so much lore content/characters. I love their unique insanely cool designs.
I just wish we had more soon.
Well, i guess greenskins deserve even more content and attention.. because in fact their roster is so small and they never received multiple DLCs, we all know that 💀
Not sure why you're knocking GS DLC - Cathay literally just had DLC - while GS are in an overall healthy place some of their factions could use a touch up on mechanics. This frees up efforts for hopefully what is an overhaul for Ogres which is needed - or other unrelated factions that could use some tweaking (LM Geometric Web for example).
because gs are already super solid and strong, they received multiple DLCs and they have One of the biggest roster in the entire trilogy. I like them, but by far they didnt deserve even more attention at all. there are factions (cough cough both vcoast/vcounts, tomb kings, norsca for example) that desperately need reworks/love, def not gs.
Agreed on Norscsa. They pretty much need a complete, ground-up redesign:
* Their economy has got to be the worst in the game. You need multiple armies for your raids, but you're bankrupt if you miss a single battle because you're just always negative.
* Once you get that money, you can put them into one of the worst territory buildings in the game, which even when fully developed, provide effectively zero economy or help. As the cherry on top, while your armies are out raiding, someone sneezing fourteen miles away will easily take out your garrison. While they shouldn't be complete empire builders, they should be able to at least sustain their own gameplay style.
* That pathetic economy then goes into a roster that can effectively be described as "worse Chaos" in the early game, and which lacks pretty much any interesting identity of its own. I would love if we had more unique monsters, or better yet, leaned into the older lore where they had unique units that were literal Vikings, not "Chaos Warrior in training".
* From there, we need to fix their campaign mechanics too. The Monster Hunts are awesome, and I'd love to see those fleshed out further, but the god dedication mechanic needs to go. It doesn't fit either of the Legendary Lords one iota, and in practice feels like a worse version Daemons of Chaos.
OK, that was a lot of complaints, but how would I change them?
The Norscans will drop the dedication mechanic, and instead get a four-tier meter called "Attention of the Gods". As you complete worthy acts, kill factions, and win battles, the gods will reward and challenge you - as you lose battles, or sit idle, you'll lose Attention, and suffer consequences to your control, growth and recruitment costs. At each of the four levels, you'll unlock a quest battle to prove your worth as a follower. Win it, and you'll unlock the next tier of the meter, plus unlock a Unique Lord.
I would also slightly change the Monster Hunts to a system called "Worthy Acts". These would include the Monster Hunts, but would also have a second tier for getting special monsters/Lords/Heroes from Chaos after battles, and a third tab that would be faction-specific, which we'll discuss below.
In addition to the above, Norscans will get access to the Slave mechanic, which is a *long* established part of their lore. This will also help prop up their economy, while still providing them a reason to be out and fighting fairly consistently.
For their roster, I would focus on their older lore, personally, instead of making them Chaos Warriors with a different coat of paint. Their roster should be about quick hit-and-run tactics for the soldiers, while their monsters perform more of the line-holding duty. This would make them play pretty differently from most other factions in the game.
And my final piece of the puzzle, would be to give the Legendary Lords proper mechanics that fit their lore. Wulfrik needs to come off that mammoth, and Throgg needs to be the intelligent troll he is, in addition to gaining access to all Trolls. Then, we'll give each of them a unique part in the Worthy Acts mechanic. For Wulfrik, this is obvious: Have him hunt down Legendary Warriors and kill them in battle. Doing so eliminates the faction from the game (Or subjugates them, where appropriate), gives Wulfrik a bonus trait and boosts his Attention. Wulfrik's campaign would be less of a grand empire-builder, and more of a mobile kill-squad that becomes more and more impressive and he racks up the kills. Throgg, in comparison, would be about proving himself superior to others. Virtually all his tasks would be about taking out some of the more intelligent or disrespectful Lords (Malakai, Elspeth, The Iron Dragon, Ikit Claw and Sigvald, for example), which would slightly boost both him and all his Trolls, in addition to gaining attention.
Yeah Norsca really does need a rework, as they are right now they’re outmatched by literally EVERY Chaos faction. For me personally, I feel like Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, and Britonnia all need some readjusting, and Vampire Courts could use some touch-ups as well.
Norsca / Counts (with pirates), they are those who need the update the most. If you don’t agree, you either never played those races, or you started with wh2 the earliest. I am sorry, but these races are waiting for so long it’s getting really annoying.
I think norsca should just be amalgamated into chaos. They share the same units really, there's not much difference. To be honest I think all chaos factions should be labelled under chaos, and just have different faction mechanics, like Karl Franz and Balthazar gelt
Yeah, I think this at the very least, there isn't much to pad them out with and it means easier life for CA because it's one less faction to have LL for
Roll them both into WoC along with their rosters, then just tweak them:
**Both (but not for other WoC factions):**
\* Add skin wolves and fimir to WoC unit upgrade tree along with some new variants
\* Incentivize consolidating traditional Norsca territory, but beyond that they should be raiders sacking and razing across the world. They should get only misery for trying to occupy Lustria or Ulthuan permanently. Can maintain a limited numbers of outposts, but map-painting should be disincentivized.
\* Give them some of that WoC power creep
**Throgg:**
\* Expanded WoC upgrade tree for troll units
\* Some more interesting troll buffs in his skill tree.
**Wulfrik:**
\* Add mammoths to the WoC unit upgrade tree
\* improve the hunt mechanic
\* campaign and skill tree buffs for marauders that make them viable late game
The Ogres. It's not a contest really, everything about them feels like half of the sum total of a good idea in it's execution, they don't play their role as "anyone's friends, anyone's enemies" anywhere near as well as they should, partially due to diplomatic aversions which compound into early wars and *essentially* permanent alignment with the factions of destruction and chaos. I can't say I've ever enjoyed playing as them outside of battles. In battle I find them fun and unique, but everything outside of that....painful
Norsca Should honestly have just been part of Chaos, but now chaos has so many things it would be silly to put them in there.
I feel like Aranessa needs a rework along with her whole faction, they shouldn't be vamp coast cuz shes not undead, just like several of her troops, she should be more tied with Ogers or Dogs of war cuz she had an Orger first mate.
I feel like some of the Highelves need a refresh, like Eltharion I'd like his mechanic for capturing and dealing with lords to mean something once you upgrade your jail fully, like there the passive buff for mistwalkers which is fine, should just be his army + mist walker units, but is fine. But the supplies that he gathers become useless after fully upgrading the jail so you should have something to spend them on like buffs or rush construction, or just Items, something, even a prestige conversion would be better than nothing. Alith Anar could use some work as well, Sending out assassins is a cool idea but it hardly ever works out, the cost for the assassins and when it has you go after allies some times is just kind of wonky, your targets dies before your hitman gets there most the time. His models is a bit odd looking, FreeLC lord and all sure but still, and his bow shot needs a bit more punch and accuracy. Oh and He and Grombrindal should actually get along, Like they both out there hunting dark Elves, and hate Malekith, I'm not saying they,d be best friends and write eachother love notes or nothing, but it'd be more like if they met up in a bar they'd shit with they backs to one another and swap stories and insults about Malekith and have a good laugh, so maybe just remove the Aversion and leave it at that. Avalorn needs help, the donut is no where near as secure as it was and her whole thing is having the donut secure she needs some help. Tyrion is fine but a bit dull he doesn't really have anything going for him except being Tyrion, and having Alastar, like maybe give him some mechanics or something.
Markus Wolfheart, his campaign set up needs some adjustment, no reason me taking a few cities in Lustria should make Warzag stronger at fighting me. They may have fixed this, Idk but he should start out knowing where Karl Franz is located.
I like the Sealane summoning idea, but it would probably only make sense for Wulfrik and even then, they would probably make Seafang a teleport mechanic for simplicity's sake.
Ogres. Vampires.
Ogres should be nomadic, but in my experience they absolutely are the opposite. The units must be put into camps that have to be near each other to allow for resupply of armies. I hate feeling trapped by the camps.
I wish camps could be moved or rethought.
Big Names would be more amusing if we could have longer and longer names instead of just one at a time.
Bretonia is absolutely not fun for me, Tomb Kings are just in a weird spot right now, preety weak, no confederations etc. And then there is Norsca, i dont even know where to start.
On the other hand im so happy they changed Empire and Dwarfes, im finally really enyoing the Dwarfes and like empire now (really hated the authority mechanic)
just had an IE with Bretonia, idk man i had so much fun, even in early with my angry villagers 🔥 🗿
late game i was completely unstoppable with my omega buffed griffon/graal cavalry. Simply epic and unbeatable
I wanted bretiona ..... I hate green skins.... Im going to go on a waahh genocide in my next campaign. Green skinks can't get a DLC if they're all dead ;) ...
No green fungus thing will be spared !!
Norsca is weird because what they're missing from a players perspective(engaging mechanics, unit/lord variety) and what they're missing as npc factions(actually engagements outside themselves, army compa that aren't a joke) are completely different. So I really don't envy the devs their work. Compare them to Ogres or Tomb Kings who only need work done on the player side of things.
GIVW NORSCA NEW LIFE BEFORE THE GAME IS FINISHED…(not that adding characters, tweaking mechanics and such is needed after).
Norsca were first, FIRST! They have a capacity to hold up if given the love, care and loot they want
I definitely would be saying ogre kingdoms so I'm glad they're next in line for dlc! I'm pretty confident that Ogres have the worst campaign mechanics in the game at this point, which is such a shame because I LOVE their roster and theming.
Sadly contracts are the single worst campaign mechanic in the game, big names are an achievement like system for your lords but you can only hold 1 so it kills the point, and camps are just worse province capitals that don't even feel like camps because we can't move them.
After that I'm not sure! Norsca could use another pass but it's harder when they're not a real tabletop faction. I know people shit in the coast and tomb kings but imo they have great flavorful mechanics, the numbers are just off. Tomb kings shouldn't require that many jars for their capacity upgrades and the Coast should just make more income from their settlements. At least to me it feels more like a balance issue with those factions and less of a "bad mechanics" issue.
The vampire counts feel kinda bland compared to the other undead factions so I'd love for them to get some love as well!
Ogre >> Norsca > Bretonnia >> Vampire Counts. Ogres are nigh unplayable considering their nomadic playstyle that punishes playing as a nomad. Norsca has good units, but terribly out-of-date mechanics compared to WoC (who have power crept them into redundancy if you can accept not having mammoths). Bretonnia has an out-of-date roster and could use a touch up to their mechanics. VC have a great roster, and only really need a new lord or 2 with new mechanics and some bloodlines to clean them up.
The only reason i play Norsca is the Frost Wyrm and the Fimir they need a rework so desperatly like the monster Hunt is OK but could be fleshed out more aswell
I think norsca and brettonia are the ones that will get dedicated reworks that will be implemented without dlc. All undead will get some kind of rework when nagash is introduced. The rework for those races may not need the nagash dlc, but I think he'll be a dlc lord that fundamentally changes how undead in general play. Like malakai for the dawi.
I honestly feel like Norsca manages to do a lot with a little. Their mechanics and unit roster feel low effort, big impact. Most of it is just Warriors of Chaos-lite, but the parts that are unique make a real impression. It would be better if they could do a lot with a lot instead, but that's a given.
On the other hand, the whole razing settlements for the Dark Gods thing could use a little rebalancing.
I really like your sea lanes idea! Especially on Wulfric, since he has lore regarding a teleporting ship.
Another LL or two would also be nice, especially if it brought you out to another part of the world like Skeggi in Lustria.
And I’d love if they had a sort of Lightning Strike feature that let them attack ports from sea without needing to land ashore, similar to how Black Arks function (though this is probably a coding issue).
Honestly I agree with your comments.
Slaneesh needs a rework to their seduction and maybe even something like Changling where you can set up ‘Dens of Seduction’ that allows you to cause Enemy empires a MASSIVE tick in upkeep due to their now indulgence in Excess as well as you taking a nice amount of loot and spreading corruption
The Ogre’s need a rework to their contracts; like imagine them being able to either demand food, wealth, units or even upgrades for your units. Like if you assist Thrott or one of the Dark Elves they upgrade your Monsterous units.
Or Norsca as you said being able to raid and claim anything and maybe even a system that has ‘primal force’ that powers your infantry up at the cost of them having something like the Dino’s from the lizardmen
I think Norsca has more units than Vampire Counts with the exception of lord options. Vampire Counts have great lords and heros and that's about it, they don't have a strong roster.
I think Cathay is kind in a weired place right now. Most of there armies for beging to mid game is going to have most peasants, and the jade warriors don't really enough of a step up. And then you have to wait till tier 3 and 4 to get the better units, and then the last of the units are awkwardly at level 5 cutting you off further from building more exciting armies. And then the first dlc they got gave them a really powerful lord...and then nothing but single entitie units and some birds. (I don't have his dlc though so Mayne they are cracked idk). Cathay is kind of just more boring empire right now. It's better but still meh.
Ogers definitely need an update. They have a lot of diffrent units yes, but a lot of them have very simular counter parts to other units in the same faction, and at the moment they are not very powerful to survive. Greasus and fireball also feel like very weak lords because of there abbilitys. Hopefully the next update gives them some flava.
Norsca -> Vampire Counts -> Ogres -> Tomb Kings Ogres are now confirmed for the next lineup but this is my list.
Totally agree, maybe put bretonnia above tomb Kings
And Lizardmen
Other than geomantic Web, what's the issue with lizardmen?
And they received like 3 dlcs!
They have the most legendary lords after WoC and have the same number of dlcs as skaven. It might literally only be geomantic Web + some more engaging lord-specific campaign abilities (mazdamundi got nothing, neither does Kroq but I don't play kroq for deep mechanics, Gor-rok has nothing, Tehenuin does but its kinda shit, TikTakTo has nothing, the only 2 lords with actually strong faction mechanics are the karma chameleon and floridas chosen champion)
Yeah just small touch and they are done. Meanwhile race, which is with us since wh1, received one lousy dlc with 1 boring lord and bad mechanics and one, which was never actually touched. It’s some of the youtubers, who appeared out of nowhere during wh3, shit video after video, pretend they know it all and give the new players these ideas. Like that a race, which can only field second army with no upkeep turn 14 is weak. Like wtf? If i can field 2nd full stack as Franz turn 14 i am a god and i still have to pay an upkeep :D
I’m ded with the Culture Club and Florida references 😂
Lizardmen definitely got their fair share of DLCs.
Lizzardmen work now, and received few dlcs. I agree, they are bit messed up, especially the tech tree and G. web, but the 4 other races need it more.
Whats wrong with Tomb Kings?
Tech tree and economy is awful.
why need an economy when you have 0 upkeep? I played their vortex campaign and past turn 10 killing the first enemy with T0 units, I was just rolling over everything. I could trade with many factions, and even half the buildings are free as well anyway.
I keep seeing people bring up tomb kings and saying economy is their primary reason and if that's the case then its entirely people who dont know HOW to play tomb kings and quickly skipped through the prompts at the start of the campaign that told you that. Tomb kings economy isnt a problem. Are they SUPER strong? no, are they somehow weak? No... if you think they're weak you might not be very good at the game.
Not every faction needs a nuke, a lord who can solo all but the last dlc lords, and enough buffs to blot out the sun.
The economy is bad for a reason and is much better then it was in wh2
You really don't need much of an economy for them. Your units cost nothing and have no upkeep. I don't even usually build an economic building with them. You can make the money you need to build your military buildings off of battle typically and eventually your economy will still start to snowball as the campaign progresses.
That's the problem with it, you spend a few turns dirt poor and then suddenly gold becomes meaningless. That's *why* it's bad.
you still need to spend it to get your recruitment buildings to increase your unit caps as well as other buildings. Its just you don't need to build much in terms of economic infrastructure.
>Tomb Kings How?
3-4 tier chariots
Explain further?
They have really good chariots in the early game, but have no way to push the chariots into the late game, so there’s no reason to build around the chariots for the late game tomb kings. That’s the single issue with them that bothers me.
Basically right, but add Lizardmen and Bretonnia. Everybody else is in a pretty good spot. I see people complain about VCoast sometimes, I’m having a blast with Noctilus rn.
And at least for Ogres it’s just because they’re fairly new. Norsca has been around for a while.
ALCADIZZAR. GIB. Or Phar. Or Amanhotep. Maybe give Thutep a promotion to LL.
I want vampire coast on that list.
Hmm it’s a tough one. I know it’s everyone’s preference as to who they love the most, but for me Norsca are just a worse version of warriors of chaos. I’d be much happier seeing them bring tomb kings back to life or even make brettonia fun. But sympathy goes out to all the Norsca fans. I hope you get your dlc at some point.
For real why ever play norsca when you can play WOC? I really feel they need to be far more unique
IMO, norsca isn’t really a faction. It’s a sub-faction whose main purpose was to get ~~visualized~~ vassalized by WOC in WH1. They gave us wulfric and the troll dude so we could dink around with them, but at the end of the day they were never really meant to be anything more than that. Again though, just my opinion. \*\*Edit: autocorrect
Tbf I really like them, more than warriors of chaos, so it makes me upset that they aren’t really fleshed out.
May I ask why tho? You get better troll gameplay from grom and big monster stuff with kholek or lizardmen or even rakarth/imrik. Their settlement limits on the coast means you can't expand easily and their best units lose to most equivalent teired units. Their best unit is elephants and even they are only suer strong with a ridiculously expensive army that would be better served with 3 less expensive armies. Mostly curious.
Because they have some sick lore and mammoths are cool? Everything you just listed as a negative is gameplay mechanic stuff that could be changed by a rework and roster update
Seriously, "mammoth-riding vikings, and also werewolves". Plus a lord specifically for building armies of trolls. We need more (and more unique) trolls. Norsca is just a lot of unrealized potential for a unique and fun faction.
Not to mention the fimir and the fact that there is amazing potential for another dynamic, making another side you can create to the order and chaos struggle. Liek you could lean either way or just create a 3rd side
Exactly what i fucking want, make Norsca a viking faction that can either choose to go Chaos and get their benefits or stick to order (There's Ulrician Norscans) that gets more income and supply. or just let em fight both as the true northmen faction. CA should try to distant them from more chaos to be the human equivalent of Orcs, lots of fighting,lots of gold and lots of ale. As of now, they're just diet WOC which fucking sucks.
If I don’t get wenches in my next Norscan campaign, I’ll riot.
The Fimir are super cool and remind me of some kind of 80's fantasy bad guys that belong in a world like The Dark Crystal, I wish there was a Lord and a couple more variants of them. There is always mods though.
Another thing, Albion is cool, like from the Gotrek and Felix books it was cool as hell.
Cause I like Wulfrik and just the general raiding vibe they got going on. WofC are just kind of stereotypical “I am evil and will eat your kids” kinda vibe, while Norsca is more like “I will get rich from you” vibe. As well as me just enjoying that you don’t really expand with them, what you should do is hit the enemies Capital, use it to get your technology and cripple the enemy. Then break them apart. Honestly, the only pain is actually having settlements with norsca, since I have to keep an army there to bat away any invaders.
No longer limited to coastal settlement, but all your other points stand.
War Mammoth, literally my most played faction just because of war mammoths
Honestly I have some good memories of the dlc back when it was launched, but it age poorly and need to be something more then a WOC vassal race
I mean, there’s a huge, lore full, polished, fun norsca rework mod that’s done better than any official DLC available….
Which one is it?
I presume they're talking about [Tribes of the North](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3236566964). It's an absolutely amazing mod, though it doesn't fix how patently unfun Norsca currently is.
yeah, same as counts, you can improve the fun a bit, but just a bit. Thams anyway!
Norsca's main appeal and gimmick was that it was a more fleshed out chaos faction in WHI when warriors of chaos were w basic bitch horde faction. In comparison to them, Norscan mechanics were engaging.
For me it comes down to aesthetics, lore, and monsters. Norscans are actually people, they may worship the same gods as the WOC, but they aren't nearly as deep into sin as them. In lore there are norscan settlements and traders who actually work with the Empire and Tilea such as Skeggi (which is a city where both Sigmar and the chaos gods have shrines). If you want a caveman/naturalistic look nobody does it better, WOC are just murderous tin cans. For units they just have better monsters than the WOC do. You get chaos dragons as a standalone unit, Throgg buffs trolls enough (and comparing anyone's buffs to Groms is unfair), skinwolves are outstanding, and mammoths need no introduction. Then you have WOC who have 1.5 unique monsters (both dragon ogre variants).
They have monster hunts and the devote to gods mechanic that actually does stuff unlike the Demons of chaos plus the fact that they aren’t insanely overpowered like WoC. I much prefer them over warriors as is
Mammoths and playing monster hunter
Why do TK need a dlc? They have good units. They are a unique race. Each faction plays very differently (only settra and khalida feel similar) They are all very strong. They are not perfect, sure, but I've never understood why people ask TK of all factions to get a rework
I wouldn't mind a slot in a lord pack to grab the last few named characters we are missing but I don't think we are missing much for actual units. The army plays solidly as well.
If they want to bring Wulfric and Throgg into WoC thats fine with me. I just want their mechanics, units, and campaigns modernized. Having a strongly Viking-themed WoC LL in Wulfric and a all-trolls-all-the-time one for Throgg would be enough. It could be an undercard for a bigger DLC release.
Now tell Us what makes tomb kings unplayable? Norsca, Counts, bretonnia need update way more.
As far as I'm aware there isn't really anything to add unit wise either so not sure you could add much of an update either to TK.
There are a few LL options available plus I would live the tech tree to get a rework. It's based on TWWH2 where factions could usually field less armies. I'd also like to see some interesting mechanics to play with. The books of negash only really make sense to Arkan the Black. Plus let me confederate the other factions without mods. Building an empire and uniting the dynasties is what I want to do as them and it's unfortunate that I have to turn to modders to get that.
Give the French something besides men on horses. I don't dislike that they're cavalry focused but the Empire is gun focused and they have other good shit too. Foot knights, peasant hunters (peasants who use bows to hunt not nobles who hunt the poor), etc.
They don’t really feel like they have the options that several other factions do. Like vampires you’re throwing a whole bunch of chaff at your opponent until you get your more viable units like UGBs and Necrosphinxes (shout out to casket of souls for being kickass though). Tough unit caps on your only good units too. Some good melee infantry would be cool. As it stands it’s mostly just meat shields. Then there’s the issue of the painfully slow start. I get the units have no upkeep, but the resulting near lack of economy means I can barely build my cities up either. I could have 2 armies of dwarves with huge upkeep early game and still be expanding cities faster than the tomb kings when they’re not spending money on anything else. Which is a bit at odds with their lore and aesthetic because they’ve got golden everything. Nehekara was rich. I know there’s the snowball argument and that’s a legitimate one but it’s still slow as balls and your late game armies won’t beat many other faction’s late game armies due to unit differences. They’re my favorite faction for sure for preference reasons but several other factions are just more fun to *play* like dwarves or skaven. I’m not exactly sure how I would fix them, but I think there’s easily so much potential and existing units in lore and tabletop that aren’t in the game that CA could definitely do it. Plus they’re reasonably popular. Oh and they should be able to do necromancy. That’s like, their thing. It’s weird that they can’t. I know it’s not vampire necromancy but you know.
Most of the nations have trouble building up. That’s why you make war.
*a norse version of warriors of chaos
They're pretty decent in multiplayer, but no way plays that.
Norsca is vert Interesting as the baseline race mechanics (monster hunts, devotion mechanic) economy and even the current roster is actually very good. Ideally the biggest thing we could do with is a way to access am undivided path in the devotion and maybe being fully devoted to a god gives you access to some god aligned units The two main problems is the current units need another tier rebalancing (bring things like giants, fimir maybe feral mammoths to t3, etc) and it's just old and stale, and simply needs more content; it's just wulfrik (who doesn't really exemplify his wanderer nature, mainly the "marauder lord") and throgg (who needs access to ALL Troll units worldwide). I'm personally in the idea of changing norsca to "tribes of Chaos" and adding factions from kurgan and Hung. LL like Sayl the faithless, Akoroak the Crow, etc.
I'd prefer it if they focused on the 'Norse' aspect like valkyries and werebears. It'll make them more unique instead of just half naked WoC with horses
I think a black ark type thing for them would be good. Where wulfrick and some other lords are a semi-horde
Bretonnia. Very basic mechanics, the least interesting "Legendary Hero" (Green Knight) in the game, one Lord that is completely forgettable and a really bland roster (though this is more of GW's fault than CA's). The most difficult thing too is because they're a fully FLC culture it's hard to think of when CA can give them a thorough polish since they probably don't want to ever make *paid* DLC for Bretonnia. Now that isn't to say that the culture is weak or lacks flavor. There are some very powerful things that they do despite a very shallow roster but mechanically they feel very far behind pretty much everyone else now.
I guess GW/CA hates the french too lol
They are bland but at the same time if you take them to the late game they are stupid OP. No supply lines penalty. Alberic with his port bonus can get an insane economy and rule out high seas attrition. Their wedge formation will absolutely annihilate infantry formations. Someone in CA loves them. They just need some rites and the vows need to be less restrictive and shit because we always pick the easiest ones to achieve
What do you mean by wedge formation? Do you have any suggestions on how to do such a thing without heavy pausing and micromanagement?
At least they nailed our accent. Bretonnians are hilarious to listen :D
"forr de laidee"! "tout de suite!"
Whaaat? british people hating on the french? cant be.
Bretonnia is a Arthurian/French mashup though, so its as much British self-loathing as contempt for the French.
Feel like they could get good value out of an Abhorash/Bretonnia dual update for VC and Bret at the same time. Thematically it’ll draw a lot of people who like the whole medieval knight quest fantasy
It doubly hurts that cavalry or so weak and the lack of flat, open maps (so many sieges, settlements and forested maps, not to mention how small they all are) make the dream of re-living medieval 2 cavalry doomstacks impossible. And given they tried to rework cavalry and all it did was make chariots better, I can't see Brettonia reaching it's potential for a long time.
Bretonnian cavalry are amazing, what are you on about? I do agree there are some maps that feel too small for full cavalry stacks but Bretonnia's cavalry is anything but weak. Their basic low tier knight cavalry outclasses a lot of other faction's high tier cavalry.
I’d like to see them add in Knights of the Realm on foot since GW made them for the Old World
Wulfrik should boost Marauders like Ghost boosts zombies or Grom goblins. His stack should be mostly mammoths, skin wolves and Marauders. Throgg, possibly my most played LL needs more trolls and troll mechanics.
Not saying I don't agree but I had quite a lot of fun with Throgg through the gift of Slannesh (I think) on all my trolls making them run around about as fast as heavy Cav all with Regen and devastating flanker.
Chaos Dwarfs... I kid, i kid! I think Norsca > Vampire Counts >Tomb Kings. As for factions that need some middle sized fixes, like Dark Elf slave mechanic and Lizardmen Web mechanic, all just need to be spiced up a bit.
Bretonnia needs soft touch too. Otherwise i agree
The problem with norsca is they're basically just a worse version of WOC.
I said the same thing in another comment thread, but basically I believe they were never meant to be their own faction. Instead, they were intended to be a subfaction to make WOC more ominous and interesting in WH1. They raid the northern borders of the empire/kislev/bretonnia until WOC comes along and ~~visualizes~~ vassalizes them all into a huge horde. *Edit: autocorrect
Yeah seems like they were meant to be WOC lite prior to the real WOC, just like WOC are the harbingers of chaos monofactions.
I like this idea Wh1- I gotta fever, norsca Wh2- I got a drip, WoC Wh3- full blown Chaos, and the only fix is more cowbells. So humor aside it does fit the trajectory in retrospect.
WoC released with the launch of WH1, though. There wasn’t any Chaos content added to WH2 over its lifespan, beyond the Beastmen DLC at the end.
Exactly this 👆
Visualizes 👀
It was like 2am when I wrote that. I was tired 😅
Norsca has been a mess since the introduction. They were the wh2 pre-order race, but it took them forever to get them into wh2 because of coding issues between the two games. Once they were brought in, their mechanics that made a ton of sense in wh1 just didn't translate to the larger map. Not to mention, the pre-order race still doesn't work on the Vortex map.
Do you mean vassalize? You've said visualize in a couple of comments, and it doesn't make sense to me.
Oh 100% meant vassalize! Damn autocorrect. Wasn’t paying attention. Thanks, will correct.
Thank you. I just wasn't sure what you were trying to say.
No thank you! I didn’t even realize.
Yeah bit they don't have to be. And even then they get Fimir and Werebeasts and other stuff that can be fleshed out.
Vampire Coast, it's just a plain poorly thought out faction that is artificially nerfed, as is Tomb Kings. The thing is Norsca is extremely powerful, just they have a notorious reputation due to Monster Hunts never working properly.
TBH i never felt Norsca is missing anything except like you said, Monster Hunt is f\*ck (but the idea is ok). Vampire Coast- why the f\*ck i can't attack/ sack city from the sea and i need to get on land? Tomb Kings- also strong, why nerfed?
Dude for real I just finished another vampire coast thing and I spent the early game attacking and establishing pirate coves to get easy levels on my TT horde lords. Not only did I have to go to shore to attack port settlements I also got stuck in their stupid area of influence and had to sack them for piddly coin just to regain any movement range and keep the pirate cove that I came there for.
Funny how Tomb Kings were considered really cool and unique with their mechanics on launch... that DLC was widely praised as the most fleshed out to date. Just show how the game had grown in complexity.
Idk where this idea caught on from anyways. I’ve done recent Tk campaigns and is still say they are the second most fleshed out behind CD
I agree with this. Only one kind of generic lord kind of sucks (but isn't even a problem unique to them) and their tech tree needs to be completely retooled imo, but otherwise I think they're in a fine spot.
Dang I loved my tomb kings Champaign, still haven't done vampire coast. What makes tomb kings so weak I dumpstered my competition in my legendary campaign
Tomb kings aren't weak or strong imo I find them perfectly balanced, even if you somehow end up losing a battle with the realm of souls you definitely deal good damage to the enemy and your units are free to recruit and upkeep and all your characters are immortal just gotta protect your lands.
Tomb kings weak? How is no upkeep, no cost army weak? TKs are not weak at all.
I assume in part because of the slow time it takes to get to new armies, unlock the highest tier units etc. I don't mind this so much - I think it part of their playstyle over a nerf, and it does give the feeling of rebuilding a civilisation - but given how fast-paced some of the other factions are, like Khorne, it can leave you on the backfoot. I played TK recently and enjoyed them - hastening their development a little bit, but not enough they lose the unique style, would help make them more competitive imo.
Play franz for a while, if you can field second full stack before turn 14 you are a god! And you pay no upkeep and can freely improve your towns, franz can’t….
Aha I'm playing Empire right now with a friend & i certainly feel that pain. Each playstyle comes with its own limitations and its benefits - I just think the TK could have there's updated, not removed.
Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast both suffer because they were introduced back when supply lines were much more expensive. They're two factions that are heavily encouraged to build a few strong armies which worked really well in WH2, but in WH3 you're much more encouraged to build multiple cheap armies. Hell, with some factions just grab a few lords and drag them around with your main army for the first 10-20 turns. They're super cost effective now and will be leveled when you can give them an army. The new meta makes TK and VC much weaker compared to where they were.
well for example Tamarkun's victory trait is about 50 turns worth of Canopic Jars alone. Tomb Kings limits to heroes, units and armies is absurd comparative to any faction that just spawns armies out of thin air, as virtually all, including Empire and Dwarfs, can now do. It's not necessarily that Tomb Kings are bad, because the AI is insanely stupid still. Even if the worth case scenario like Skarbrand going after you early game, you can still just ambush him at your cities as Settra with a full stack and wipe him out in auto-resolve, but *if* the AI wasn't brain-dead and used it's mechanics properly, Tomb Kings are by far the weakest faction and wouldn't have a hope in hell fighting many of the factions in the game. If you lose some of your key units, or Casket of Souls early in the campaign, there is no point in continuing as it's basically over.
The pirates of Sarasota makes at least Aranessa a lot more fun. It's a bit bloated, I'd of skipped the norscans and most of the dwarves, but it's fun.
Ogres top the list, which is good they are getting dlc Norsca next, but tbh they only need a few small things. They need to make all monster hunts active in parallel (instead of arbitrary one at a time limit) They need to allow you to complete all the devotions to Gods and unlock all 4 rewards. They need at least a second (maybe even third) generic lord option. They don't really NEED extra units but that feels like a staple for all DLCs and of course would be nice so they will likely get that. And they either need a tech tree rework to reduce durations or they need more ways to increase research rate. Their techs take WAY too long right now. Then they are set. They really aren't as bad as people say, their port income is insane and one turn ice trolls global recruit is whack. Plus they have strong units, strong lords, strong heroes, super strong confederation mechanics, super strong techs that give insane global boosts, etc. They are actually one of the super easiest campaigns despite all the hate they get.
It’s honestly so weird that we’re not gettimg dven a hint at any Norsca changes with how much attention was given to Warriors of Chaos.
Norsca doesnt even have lore description lol
They do. A shitton. They are in books, novels, short stories, and army books. Their wiki page is itself as long as a book. People are too f lazy to use google I guess.
I think mechanically Norsca is fine and have some cool and unique stuff. They need more units and finally more lord and hero types. It is insane to me that one of the oldest races in the series has only one (!!!) generic lord type.
They are fine, but not mechanically. Their mechanics belong to wh1, not wh3, same goes for counts, pirates and Bretonnia.
Vampire Counts. At least the other contenders (Norsca, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, Bretonia and the Ogres) are all DLC factions. Vampire Counts are a Base Race from Warhammer 1, yet they have only ever had one paid DLC which was 8 years ago... and it was Helman Ghorst... No other Base Race is even close to Vampire Counts for the lack of attention they have been given.
WH1 player spotted. It’s honestly insane, how long counts have to wait. I am getting annoyed. NORSCA needs help for sure, but if somebody mentions TKs or Lizzards before those 2 races my blood pressure rises up :D
Lizardmen, vampire coast and... Like tombkings, they feel like something is missing.
GEOMANTIC WEB SUUUCCCKKKSSSSS!!!!!
I wish they'd just grant them the ability to teleport between cities with maxed out geomantic web strength.
That would be cool
Hiw would they even rework Norsca?
I said in the thing but I thought it would be awesome if they added more units a lord. And made them able to summon special sea lanes to temporarily speed across the map to get to wherever they need to go to raid
i think they just need more unit variety
Yeah of course. But do they have models or does CA need to invent new?
A mix, I'd imagine. There are some 8th edition Chaos units for CA to draw on, as they did when they created Norsca - Fimir Noble (Lord), and monsters like the Chimera, Basilisk and Cursed E'ttin. There are older edition Chaos units not represented yet, such as the Flayerkin. CA also took the Slayer Pirates and Goblin Hewer from Dogs of War, so they could also introduce were-bears as based on the Bjorg Bearstruck and the Bearmen of Urslo, which were Chaos DoW units. Then there are those mentioned in the lore but which never had a tabletop model, which CA could use - Shield Maidens, Ymir etc. This would take some invention on their side.
Also Flayerkin (infantry) , bondsmen (Stronger infantry) and Freeholders (basically Norscan Knights). Warhammer Fantasy roleplay 2ed „Tome of Corruption“ has also some very good ideas about norsca, but Norscas are more of a „background“ for Chaos Warriors instead of a realm faction. Even the kings and Jarls (nobles) of Norsca are Chaos Lords/Champions and Chaos Chosen.
They could also add subfactions like the Kurgan and the Hung
More Fimir and other units, and maybe doing fun things with Raiding. Something that encourages raiding the coasts of the world.
Then I reccommend the norscan mod thingy. Plenty of fun collecting the plenty of norscan legendary lords and hero's and showing chaos who is boss.
Norsca primitive mofos should have more mechanics behind them. cause honestly, they're a joke.
There is no way that Norscs wil not reworked in the future, we just have to wait
I think slaanesh is fine as is, they just need another LL so that you can fight something except for high elves in the first 50 turns
Even the possibility to have a start swapped with another slaaneshy faction would be neat
Honestly, fucking Cathay (minus the green man). They both have the same "defend the wall" mechanic, but Zhao is miles from it and is always at war with Ku'Gath and Ghorst. Then Zathan and Vilitch kill Miao and Grimgor cleans house (which is at least canonical). What needs to happen is a buff to T3-5 of the wall (ideally removing peasants and cav, swapping in Jade soldiers and at t5 adding the yellow ones, and maybe swapping the cav out for the flying cav at least) and to give Zhao another actual campaign mechanic.
without even considering these actual facts, Cathay is still missing so much lore content/characters. I love their unique insanely cool designs. I just wish we had more soon. Well, i guess greenskins deserve even more content and attention.. because in fact their roster is so small and they never received multiple DLCs, we all know that 💀
Not sure why you're knocking GS DLC - Cathay literally just had DLC - while GS are in an overall healthy place some of their factions could use a touch up on mechanics. This frees up efforts for hopefully what is an overhaul for Ogres which is needed - or other unrelated factions that could use some tweaking (LM Geometric Web for example).
because gs are already super solid and strong, they received multiple DLCs and they have One of the biggest roster in the entire trilogy. I like them, but by far they didnt deserve even more attention at all. there are factions (cough cough both vcoast/vcounts, tomb kings, norsca for example) that desperately need reworks/love, def not gs.
Agreed on Norscsa. They pretty much need a complete, ground-up redesign: * Their economy has got to be the worst in the game. You need multiple armies for your raids, but you're bankrupt if you miss a single battle because you're just always negative. * Once you get that money, you can put them into one of the worst territory buildings in the game, which even when fully developed, provide effectively zero economy or help. As the cherry on top, while your armies are out raiding, someone sneezing fourteen miles away will easily take out your garrison. While they shouldn't be complete empire builders, they should be able to at least sustain their own gameplay style. * That pathetic economy then goes into a roster that can effectively be described as "worse Chaos" in the early game, and which lacks pretty much any interesting identity of its own. I would love if we had more unique monsters, or better yet, leaned into the older lore where they had unique units that were literal Vikings, not "Chaos Warrior in training". * From there, we need to fix their campaign mechanics too. The Monster Hunts are awesome, and I'd love to see those fleshed out further, but the god dedication mechanic needs to go. It doesn't fit either of the Legendary Lords one iota, and in practice feels like a worse version Daemons of Chaos. OK, that was a lot of complaints, but how would I change them? The Norscans will drop the dedication mechanic, and instead get a four-tier meter called "Attention of the Gods". As you complete worthy acts, kill factions, and win battles, the gods will reward and challenge you - as you lose battles, or sit idle, you'll lose Attention, and suffer consequences to your control, growth and recruitment costs. At each of the four levels, you'll unlock a quest battle to prove your worth as a follower. Win it, and you'll unlock the next tier of the meter, plus unlock a Unique Lord. I would also slightly change the Monster Hunts to a system called "Worthy Acts". These would include the Monster Hunts, but would also have a second tier for getting special monsters/Lords/Heroes from Chaos after battles, and a third tab that would be faction-specific, which we'll discuss below. In addition to the above, Norscans will get access to the Slave mechanic, which is a *long* established part of their lore. This will also help prop up their economy, while still providing them a reason to be out and fighting fairly consistently. For their roster, I would focus on their older lore, personally, instead of making them Chaos Warriors with a different coat of paint. Their roster should be about quick hit-and-run tactics for the soldiers, while their monsters perform more of the line-holding duty. This would make them play pretty differently from most other factions in the game. And my final piece of the puzzle, would be to give the Legendary Lords proper mechanics that fit their lore. Wulfrik needs to come off that mammoth, and Throgg needs to be the intelligent troll he is, in addition to gaining access to all Trolls. Then, we'll give each of them a unique part in the Worthy Acts mechanic. For Wulfrik, this is obvious: Have him hunt down Legendary Warriors and kill them in battle. Doing so eliminates the faction from the game (Or subjugates them, where appropriate), gives Wulfrik a bonus trait and boosts his Attention. Wulfrik's campaign would be less of a grand empire-builder, and more of a mobile kill-squad that becomes more and more impressive and he racks up the kills. Throgg, in comparison, would be about proving himself superior to others. Virtually all his tasks would be about taking out some of the more intelligent or disrespectful Lords (Malakai, Elspeth, The Iron Dragon, Ikit Claw and Sigvald, for example), which would slightly boost both him and all his Trolls, in addition to gaining attention.
Yeah Norsca really does need a rework, as they are right now they’re outmatched by literally EVERY Chaos faction. For me personally, I feel like Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, and Britonnia all need some readjusting, and Vampire Courts could use some touch-ups as well.
Norsca / Counts (with pirates), they are those who need the update the most. If you don’t agree, you either never played those races, or you started with wh2 the earliest. I am sorry, but these races are waiting for so long it’s getting really annoying.
Aaaah Aaah the blood runs cold~ Please CA at the very least just remove the cap on Queen bess when thunderbarges and dread quakes can be doom stacked
Brettonia is worst by a mile
I really feel like Ogres are lacking....out of all the races they are the only one that feel incomplete to me.
I think norsca should just be amalgamated into chaos. They share the same units really, there's not much difference. To be honest I think all chaos factions should be labelled under chaos, and just have different faction mechanics, like Karl Franz and Balthazar gelt
I wouldn't mind rolling Throgg and Wulfrik into WoC so long as they got modernized and got some new units.
Yeah, I think this at the very least, there isn't much to pad them out with and it means easier life for CA because it's one less faction to have LL for
Roll them both into WoC along with their rosters, then just tweak them: **Both (but not for other WoC factions):** \* Add skin wolves and fimir to WoC unit upgrade tree along with some new variants \* Incentivize consolidating traditional Norsca territory, but beyond that they should be raiders sacking and razing across the world. They should get only misery for trying to occupy Lustria or Ulthuan permanently. Can maintain a limited numbers of outposts, but map-painting should be disincentivized. \* Give them some of that WoC power creep **Throgg:** \* Expanded WoC upgrade tree for troll units \* Some more interesting troll buffs in his skill tree. **Wulfrik:** \* Add mammoths to the WoC unit upgrade tree \* improve the hunt mechanic \* campaign and skill tree buffs for marauders that make them viable late game
The Ogres. It's not a contest really, everything about them feels like half of the sum total of a good idea in it's execution, they don't play their role as "anyone's friends, anyone's enemies" anywhere near as well as they should, partially due to diplomatic aversions which compound into early wars and *essentially* permanent alignment with the factions of destruction and chaos. I can't say I've ever enjoyed playing as them outside of battles. In battle I find them fun and unique, but everything outside of that....painful
I want more VC love
Norsca Should honestly have just been part of Chaos, but now chaos has so many things it would be silly to put them in there. I feel like Aranessa needs a rework along with her whole faction, they shouldn't be vamp coast cuz shes not undead, just like several of her troops, she should be more tied with Ogers or Dogs of war cuz she had an Orger first mate. I feel like some of the Highelves need a refresh, like Eltharion I'd like his mechanic for capturing and dealing with lords to mean something once you upgrade your jail fully, like there the passive buff for mistwalkers which is fine, should just be his army + mist walker units, but is fine. But the supplies that he gathers become useless after fully upgrading the jail so you should have something to spend them on like buffs or rush construction, or just Items, something, even a prestige conversion would be better than nothing. Alith Anar could use some work as well, Sending out assassins is a cool idea but it hardly ever works out, the cost for the assassins and when it has you go after allies some times is just kind of wonky, your targets dies before your hitman gets there most the time. His models is a bit odd looking, FreeLC lord and all sure but still, and his bow shot needs a bit more punch and accuracy. Oh and He and Grombrindal should actually get along, Like they both out there hunting dark Elves, and hate Malekith, I'm not saying they,d be best friends and write eachother love notes or nothing, but it'd be more like if they met up in a bar they'd shit with they backs to one another and swap stories and insults about Malekith and have a good laugh, so maybe just remove the Aversion and leave it at that. Avalorn needs help, the donut is no where near as secure as it was and her whole thing is having the donut secure she needs some help. Tyrion is fine but a bit dull he doesn't really have anything going for him except being Tyrion, and having Alastar, like maybe give him some mechanics or something. Markus Wolfheart, his campaign set up needs some adjustment, no reason me taking a few cities in Lustria should make Warzag stronger at fighting me. They may have fixed this, Idk but he should start out knowing where Karl Franz is located.
I like the Sealane summoning idea, but it would probably only make sense for Wulfrik and even then, they would probably make Seafang a teleport mechanic for simplicity's sake.
Ogres. Vampires. Ogres should be nomadic, but in my experience they absolutely are the opposite. The units must be put into camps that have to be near each other to allow for resupply of armies. I hate feeling trapped by the camps. I wish camps could be moved or rethought. Big Names would be more amusing if we could have longer and longer names instead of just one at a time.
They should get a longship mechanic so they have a naval identity. And more ways in how they interact with chaos.
Norsca only exists to be cannon fodder and xp/gold farms for players
Vamps, both. Yea, Norsca is very sub par, but we have WoC, who are a top race, just better norsca in every aspect.
Bretonia is absolutely not fun for me, Tomb Kings are just in a weird spot right now, preety weak, no confederations etc. And then there is Norsca, i dont even know where to start. On the other hand im so happy they changed Empire and Dwarfes, im finally really enyoing the Dwarfes and like empire now (really hated the authority mechanic)
just had an IE with Bretonia, idk man i had so much fun, even in early with my angry villagers 🔥 🗿 late game i was completely unstoppable with my omega buffed griffon/graal cavalry. Simply epic and unbeatable
I wanted bretiona ..... I hate green skins.... Im going to go on a waahh genocide in my next campaign. Green skinks can't get a DLC if they're all dead ;) ... No green fungus thing will be spared !!
Ogre
I don’t get why they don’t have any cav units. It makes playing vs empire and dwarves horrible
Norsca is weird because what they're missing from a players perspective(engaging mechanics, unit/lord variety) and what they're missing as npc factions(actually engagements outside themselves, army compa that aren't a joke) are completely different. So I really don't envy the devs their work. Compare them to Ogres or Tomb Kings who only need work done on the player side of things.
Man the only Northlanders i know about are the ones that follow Nurgle's teachings because of Vermintide 2.
GIVW NORSCA NEW LIFE BEFORE THE GAME IS FINISHED…(not that adding characters, tweaking mechanics and such is needed after). Norsca were first, FIRST! They have a capacity to hold up if given the love, care and loot they want
Do you guys jave any mods for making norsca a better faction to play? Maybe sonething that brings it closet to nowadays standards?
I definitely would be saying ogre kingdoms so I'm glad they're next in line for dlc! I'm pretty confident that Ogres have the worst campaign mechanics in the game at this point, which is such a shame because I LOVE their roster and theming. Sadly contracts are the single worst campaign mechanic in the game, big names are an achievement like system for your lords but you can only hold 1 so it kills the point, and camps are just worse province capitals that don't even feel like camps because we can't move them. After that I'm not sure! Norsca could use another pass but it's harder when they're not a real tabletop faction. I know people shit in the coast and tomb kings but imo they have great flavorful mechanics, the numbers are just off. Tomb kings shouldn't require that many jars for their capacity upgrades and the Coast should just make more income from their settlements. At least to me it feels more like a balance issue with those factions and less of a "bad mechanics" issue. The vampire counts feel kinda bland compared to the other undead factions so I'd love for them to get some love as well!
Must be heavy, carrying all those skeletons. You can lean on me bro
skaven. (obviously im meming but i just want thanquol and stormfiends already)
Ogre >> Norsca > Bretonnia >> Vampire Counts. Ogres are nigh unplayable considering their nomadic playstyle that punishes playing as a nomad. Norsca has good units, but terribly out-of-date mechanics compared to WoC (who have power crept them into redundancy if you can accept not having mammoths). Bretonnia has an out-of-date roster and could use a touch up to their mechanics. VC have a great roster, and only really need a new lord or 2 with new mechanics and some bloodlines to clean them up.
The only reason i play Norsca is the Frost Wyrm and the Fimir they need a rework so desperatly like the monster Hunt is OK but could be fleshed out more aswell
Norsca, Vampire Counts, Bretonnia
I think norsca and brettonia are the ones that will get dedicated reworks that will be implemented without dlc. All undead will get some kind of rework when nagash is introduced. The rework for those races may not need the nagash dlc, but I think he'll be a dlc lord that fundamentally changes how undead in general play. Like malakai for the dawi.
I honestly feel like Norsca manages to do a lot with a little. Their mechanics and unit roster feel low effort, big impact. Most of it is just Warriors of Chaos-lite, but the parts that are unique make a real impression. It would be better if they could do a lot with a lot instead, but that's a given. On the other hand, the whole razing settlements for the Dark Gods thing could use a little rebalancing.
Vampire coast
Norsca, Bretonnia, and vamp counts
I really like your sea lanes idea! Especially on Wulfric, since he has lore regarding a teleporting ship. Another LL or two would also be nice, especially if it brought you out to another part of the world like Skeggi in Lustria. And I’d love if they had a sort of Lightning Strike feature that let them attack ports from sea without needing to land ashore, similar to how Black Arks function (though this is probably a coding issue).
Vampire coast
*ifunny*
Honestly I agree with your comments. Slaneesh needs a rework to their seduction and maybe even something like Changling where you can set up ‘Dens of Seduction’ that allows you to cause Enemy empires a MASSIVE tick in upkeep due to their now indulgence in Excess as well as you taking a nice amount of loot and spreading corruption The Ogre’s need a rework to their contracts; like imagine them being able to either demand food, wealth, units or even upgrades for your units. Like if you assist Thrott or one of the Dark Elves they upgrade your Monsterous units. Or Norsca as you said being able to raid and claim anything and maybe even a system that has ‘primal force’ that powers your infantry up at the cost of them having something like the Dino’s from the lizardmen
High Elves feel pretty barebones too. Norsca, while definitely left out in the cold, at least have some interesting mechanics going for them still.
Mods help, with the only downside that it breaks the game/save everytime there is a major update
i'd like a bretonnia rework since vow system is easier for Repanse. Alberic is terrible in his jungle.
I agree, I really want norsca to get a rework.
Norsca is just a gimped WoC. No need to play more than once.
Norsca and Vampire Coast
OVERRUN THE WORLD!
I think Norsca has more units than Vampire Counts with the exception of lord options. Vampire Counts have great lords and heros and that's about it, they don't have a strong roster.
When was the last time ANY of the elf factors got an update?
Slaanesh Seduction is too expensive and N’Kari is too prone to getting sniped.
Seduction is basically useless except for very niche situations now
Bretonnia and norsca
I wish for egil styrbjorn
Norsca probably does win this but vampire coast was released and also never touched again.
Nosrca has not gotten an update since game 1.
iFunny watermark? reported for terrorism
Please sir, the Skaven have grown hungry. It's been over a year without an update for them and they have grown desperate.
I think Cathay is kind in a weired place right now. Most of there armies for beging to mid game is going to have most peasants, and the jade warriors don't really enough of a step up. And then you have to wait till tier 3 and 4 to get the better units, and then the last of the units are awkwardly at level 5 cutting you off further from building more exciting armies. And then the first dlc they got gave them a really powerful lord...and then nothing but single entitie units and some birds. (I don't have his dlc though so Mayne they are cracked idk). Cathay is kind of just more boring empire right now. It's better but still meh. Ogers definitely need an update. They have a lot of diffrent units yes, but a lot of them have very simular counter parts to other units in the same faction, and at the moment they are not very powerful to survive. Greasus and fireball also feel like very weak lords because of there abbilitys. Hopefully the next update gives them some flava.