I've never seen it myself but I think Lantern Rouge or somebody mentioned the existence of a study showing that riders perform better even on very steep grades with no significant draft if they have a rider pacing in front of them. Presumably this would be a psychological help. When you are pushing so close to your physical limit psychology matters a lot.
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41014339-endure](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41014339-endure)
won't tell you about climbing support on steep grades but it does explore what we do and don't know about pushing our limits.
There is still some drafting on climbs, especially when they get to a faux flat, but also having someone to help shut down attacks of rivals, or play foil to allow the leader to attack more effectively like a 1-2 punch. Even having someone to help by collecting water bottles and going back to the team car on a climb is advantageous.
Motivation and reassurance, I think. If you can sit on a wheel it gives you a sense of security, especially if it's a teammate that you know you can out climb. I think it's mainly about morale
I've read that about 9mph is the point at which air resistance becomes the dominant force holding you back. On flat I'm assuming, but it still highlights just how much air resistance plays a part even at very low speeds.
If you puncture, having a teammate who can give you a wheel or even their bike can save a Tour. Additionally having someone who can grab bottles from the team car is useful.
Putting your head down, and just holding the wheel of a teammate who is riding at or near their/your limit is just easier than setting that same pace yourself, regardless of the small drafting benefits it provides on steep climbs.
There is a small drafting benefit as well, especially considering climbs and mountaintop stage finishes are rarely just steep the entire way. When there is a section where the gradients are lower, having that teammate in front of you can present the opportunity to open a gap on a rival rider/team.
When a GC rider is going up a climb with a few teammates/domestiques around them, they are also in a better position to play some team tactics if the opportunity presents. For example, picture 2 gc contenders going up a steep climb where there is a section of shallower gradients ahead. Team A has a gc leader, and a few teammates pacing, and team B only has their gc rider. Team A can tire out the gc rider of team B by attacking a few times and forcing him to single-handedly close down these attacks. Then, team A send one of their riders up the road, and just before the gradients come down team A's gc rider bridges up, gets in the draft, opens up a large gap, and takes seconds or minutes on team B's gc rider. This is only one scenario, but there is often games of cat and mouse, attacking, blocking attacks, etc. and the team with more riders around their gc rider is generally going to have the leverage in these situations.
As a shit cyclist who recently climbed Mt. Ventoux 3 times in a day, I found it a lot easier to focus on just holding a wheel, as opposed to constantly focusing on
- picking a line
- checking cadence
- checking wattage
- checking hr
- checking gradient/remaining climbing/ dostance to top...
- thinking how long I can hold this cadence and wattage
And so on...
It's more psychological than physical. Putting your head down and holding a wheel is easier than focusing on pace and what everyone else is doing behind you.
Pacing. Providing a closer, realistic goal. The rider who is being supported is just following a wheel, not focused on a monumental climb.
I was on a big group ride when a really big dude asked if I would help him on the hills if he would help me on the flats. I took him on and we finished in the top of all the riders. Drafting him was like being behind a truck. When I "pulled" him up the hills, I kept an eye (ear) on his distance and stayed close, while giving him a close target to keep up with rather than looking at the top of the climb and getting discouraged.
There are several subtle advantages listed here: drafting, pacing, going back to the car, e.g.
The bigger advantage is also mentioned: the ability to have someone attack for you and cover attacks. You can have your teammate launch an attack, a very hard attack.
Now, your opponent must consider the risk of either letting your teammate go, and sacrifice the stage win and potentially a place in GC, or spending the resources to cover the attack, while you can maintain a steady pace, which costs less. This is the 1-2 punch mentioned. Rinse and repeat until your rivals are more tired than you are.
The other thing a teammate can do for you is to go to the front and set as hard a pace as you can manage to follow. This will make it difficult for your opponents to do the same to you.
Lemmee explore this a different way, and I’ve wondered about this for a while. For you who have competed, how is it different when you’re on the wheel of a competitor rather than a teammate? If I’m Jonas on Tadej’s wheel going up a long tough climb, is Tadej doing things (other than the big attacks we can all see) to make it tough on me. Maybe small accelerations/decelerations, the occasional little turns, just little things that’s it’s hard to see on TV. So, if you’re a pro with a competitor on your back wheel is it that much different for the tire sucker than if he’s with a teammate.
Drag is of importance when you run at +20 km/h as the elite men do. [https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/in-depth/analysing-the-aerodynamics-of-the-fastest-ever-marathon/](https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/in-depth/analysing-the-aerodynamics-of-the-fastest-ever-marathon/)
Stages are long to put the elite cyclists on their limit when racing, that’s the drama of pro cycle racing, watching competitors perform at the very limit. When you get to the limit even a small benefit from drafting helps. They are playing on the red line.
Drafting (up to certain grades); food and water supply; an extra bike to switch out to if required; pacing the group (if that is the tactic); covering attacks; fellowship
It matters less than on the flats but still matters, especially with head or side wind.
With tail wind on the steepest climbs it matters very little in terms of draft, then its mostly psychologically for the leader.
You saw on climbs like Col de Granon in 2022 they came in one by one. That is an example on when it really doesnt matter much to have a domestique pulling for you, because it was so steep and little wind
There is an aerodynamic advantage, even at slow speeds. Saving even 3% energy is a big deal on the Tourmalet!
The big advantage though is for pacing, backup/service, descents and false flats.
You don't see it on TV that often, but domestiques carry food and water for their team leader as well. They also drop back to the team car to resupply, which takes a lot of energy.
I was just a decent cat IV racer 30+ years ago and I did the climbs in the mountains around Boulder at 15-17 mph or more, so at those speeds, drafting is a thing. When it gets steep you’re not going that fast, but as others have said, the climbs aren’t straight up the whole way.
The whole manufactured drama meme is intensely annoying. There’s plenty of drama/pathos in covering the event without manufacturing soap opera level angst.
They are getting a draft pretty much at 10mph I think, maybe even less. At the paces these groups are climbing, the draft does make a difference. It’s shocking.
I think it’s obviously moral support as well
Someone out there probably knows the exact pace at which the draft comes into play but it’s still viable even up some steeper climbs
Until you’ve seen pros climbing in person you can’t even comprehend how fast they go up hill compared to us mere mortals. So uphill speed and drafting factors in a lot more so than the local group ride based on speed alone. Along with the other great insights pointed out so far here.
I've never seen it myself but I think Lantern Rouge or somebody mentioned the existence of a study showing that riders perform better even on very steep grades with no significant draft if they have a rider pacing in front of them. Presumably this would be a psychological help. When you are pushing so close to your physical limit psychology matters a lot. [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41014339-endure](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41014339-endure) won't tell you about climbing support on steep grades but it does explore what we do and don't know about pushing our limits.
added to reading list. thanks
Great book for fans of endurance physiology.
There is still some drafting on climbs, especially when they get to a faux flat, but also having someone to help shut down attacks of rivals, or play foil to allow the leader to attack more effectively like a 1-2 punch. Even having someone to help by collecting water bottles and going back to the team car on a climb is advantageous.
Motivation and reassurance, I think. If you can sit on a wheel it gives you a sense of security, especially if it's a teammate that you know you can out climb. I think it's mainly about morale
I remember Dani Martínez screaming at Egan bernal a few years ago in the giro (I think) to get him moving faster 😂
Aero and drafting becomes a thing above 20km/h or thereabouts. The fastest Pro’s can climb Alpe du Huez at 23km/h.
Above 14 Km/h actually so when they are going uphill at 20+ kmph it is significant advantage to draft.
I've read that about 9mph is the point at which air resistance becomes the dominant force holding you back. On flat I'm assuming, but it still highlights just how much air resistance plays a part even at very low speeds.
If you puncture, having a teammate who can give you a wheel or even their bike can save a Tour. Additionally having someone who can grab bottles from the team car is useful.
“Come on guys - today we show the world Jonas is the man. You’re a fucking legend Jonas eh? Come on. Eh?”
I read that in Grischa's voice. Thanks
Any draft is better than no draft. Pros often win races by tiny margins, they need single edge they can get.
Putting your head down, and just holding the wheel of a teammate who is riding at or near their/your limit is just easier than setting that same pace yourself, regardless of the small drafting benefits it provides on steep climbs. There is a small drafting benefit as well, especially considering climbs and mountaintop stage finishes are rarely just steep the entire way. When there is a section where the gradients are lower, having that teammate in front of you can present the opportunity to open a gap on a rival rider/team. When a GC rider is going up a climb with a few teammates/domestiques around them, they are also in a better position to play some team tactics if the opportunity presents. For example, picture 2 gc contenders going up a steep climb where there is a section of shallower gradients ahead. Team A has a gc leader, and a few teammates pacing, and team B only has their gc rider. Team A can tire out the gc rider of team B by attacking a few times and forcing him to single-handedly close down these attacks. Then, team A send one of their riders up the road, and just before the gradients come down team A's gc rider bridges up, gets in the draft, opens up a large gap, and takes seconds or minutes on team B's gc rider. This is only one scenario, but there is often games of cat and mouse, attacking, blocking attacks, etc. and the team with more riders around their gc rider is generally going to have the leverage in these situations.
As a shit cyclist who recently climbed Mt. Ventoux 3 times in a day, I found it a lot easier to focus on just holding a wheel, as opposed to constantly focusing on - picking a line - checking cadence - checking wattage - checking hr - checking gradient/remaining climbing/ dostance to top... - thinking how long I can hold this cadence and wattage And so on...
Epic humblebrag right there, my man!
Pure pacing and drafting. If Landa didn’t offer to pace Kuss up the Angliru last year, Jonas would have won the Vuelta. That’s the difference.
That's a good case study
There is a draft advantage for most of the duration of most climbs.
It's more psychological than physical. Putting your head down and holding a wheel is easier than focusing on pace and what everyone else is doing behind you.
Pacing. Providing a closer, realistic goal. The rider who is being supported is just following a wheel, not focused on a monumental climb. I was on a big group ride when a really big dude asked if I would help him on the hills if he would help me on the flats. I took him on and we finished in the top of all the riders. Drafting him was like being behind a truck. When I "pulled" him up the hills, I kept an eye (ear) on his distance and stayed close, while giving him a close target to keep up with rather than looking at the top of the climb and getting discouraged.
There are several subtle advantages listed here: drafting, pacing, going back to the car, e.g. The bigger advantage is also mentioned: the ability to have someone attack for you and cover attacks. You can have your teammate launch an attack, a very hard attack. Now, your opponent must consider the risk of either letting your teammate go, and sacrifice the stage win and potentially a place in GC, or spending the resources to cover the attack, while you can maintain a steady pace, which costs less. This is the 1-2 punch mentioned. Rinse and repeat until your rivals are more tired than you are. The other thing a teammate can do for you is to go to the front and set as hard a pace as you can manage to follow. This will make it difficult for your opponents to do the same to you.
Lemmee explore this a different way, and I’ve wondered about this for a while. For you who have competed, how is it different when you’re on the wheel of a competitor rather than a teammate? If I’m Jonas on Tadej’s wheel going up a long tough climb, is Tadej doing things (other than the big attacks we can all see) to make it tough on me. Maybe small accelerations/decelerations, the occasional little turns, just little things that’s it’s hard to see on TV. So, if you’re a pro with a competitor on your back wheel is it that much different for the tire sucker than if he’s with a teammate.
Just a reminder that DTS made up that story about Pidcock and Rodriguez, they talked about it yesterday at an interview and it is a non story.
You go ahead and try it solo see how you like it. 🤣
Adding to evertything that has already been said: Consider that there is also someone pacing in marathons where drag is of no importance.
Drag is of importance when you run at +20 km/h as the elite men do. [https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/in-depth/analysing-the-aerodynamics-of-the-fastest-ever-marathon/](https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/in-depth/analysing-the-aerodynamics-of-the-fastest-ever-marathon/)
Today I learned something new, thank you.
Stages are long to put the elite cyclists on their limit when racing, that’s the drama of pro cycle racing, watching competitors perform at the very limit. When you get to the limit even a small benefit from drafting helps. They are playing on the red line.
Drafting (up to certain grades); food and water supply; an extra bike to switch out to if required; pacing the group (if that is the tactic); covering attacks; fellowship
It matters less than on the flats but still matters, especially with head or side wind. With tail wind on the steepest climbs it matters very little in terms of draft, then its mostly psychologically for the leader. You saw on climbs like Col de Granon in 2022 they came in one by one. That is an example on when it really doesnt matter much to have a domestique pulling for you, because it was so steep and little wind
There is an aerodynamic advantage, even at slow speeds. Saving even 3% energy is a big deal on the Tourmalet! The big advantage though is for pacing, backup/service, descents and false flats.
You don't see it on TV that often, but domestiques carry food and water for their team leader as well. They also drop back to the team car to resupply, which takes a lot of energy.
I was just a decent cat IV racer 30+ years ago and I did the climbs in the mountains around Boulder at 15-17 mph or more, so at those speeds, drafting is a thing. When it gets steep you’re not going that fast, but as others have said, the climbs aren’t straight up the whole way.
The Netflix thing was hilarious. Pidcock didn’t make a difference to Rodriguez on that stage. It was manufactured for the drama.
The whole manufactured drama meme is intensely annoying. There’s plenty of drama/pathos in covering the event without manufacturing soap opera level angst.
So annoying that they attract new cycling followers with lies like that.
They are getting a draft pretty much at 10mph I think, maybe even less. At the paces these groups are climbing, the draft does make a difference. It’s shocking. I think it’s obviously moral support as well Someone out there probably knows the exact pace at which the draft comes into play but it’s still viable even up some steeper climbs
Until you’ve seen pros climbing in person you can’t even comprehend how fast they go up hill compared to us mere mortals. So uphill speed and drafting factors in a lot more so than the local group ride based on speed alone. Along with the other great insights pointed out so far here.