There’s been quite a lot of discourse regarding transgender athletes. To be clear, while I support transgender rights, the integrity of athletic competition is called into question when allowing biological men to compete in competitions meant for females. There is a myriad of physiological differences including testosterone levels, lung capacity, fat distribution, lean muscle mass, heart size, and several other variables which dictate men’s higher inherent athletic capabilities. While there is some research to suggest that HRT can equalize these physiological differences, most transgender high schoolers have not been on these medications long enough to justify allowing them to compete (the literature mostly considers only HRT in relation to lean muscle mass, and not other factors such as lung capacity). Thus regardless of HRT, transgender females likely have greater physiological advantages over biological females.
The argument that by not allowing transgender people to engage in high school athletics results in unfair opportunity for these transgender students is simply unfounded. The harm it does to biologically female athletes by detracting from their performances in competition is much greater than a <1% population needing “equal opportunity”. A really simple fix would be to have an open league where transgender athletes are able to compete freely.
Biological women deserve a space where they compete free from controversy. It is a great unfairness to allow people who simply “identify” as transgender to infiltrate their space to compete. T&F feels like a great sport to recognize both men’s and women’s accomplishments. Especially considering the popularity of events like the women’s 100, 200, 400H, and many others. This entire argument is reduced to “equal opportunity” and “being woke” while ignoring how it detracts from the achievements of biological females.
In many athletic endeavors there is an open category for any person of any gender to enter for competition. Our idea that a men's division exists because men dominate open competition. Golf for instance has opens, women can compete against men freely. There is a protected women's division because the vast majority can not compete in open.
Telling transitioning females they should play in open isn't gendering them or putting them in some small box. It's saying you are like everyone else, compete with everyone else.
Americans are so afraid to simply say that, it’s actually funny how america turned from the most opinionated douches of the world, to 20 years later now being petrified to even imply that dudes beating women in their own sports groups is stupid as shit.
Dude had navigate a response instead of just going “what the fuck? There’s men playing in women’s sports?”
Agreed, these are boys/men competing against girls/women ... and it is wrong. A woman trains her whole HS/collegiate career only to get beaten by a man in woman's clothing. How woke have we become?
Most other countries don’t deal with this nonsense. We had to apply for passports for our kids this spring. Right on the application it gives you choices and I believe an other box. But in the most diplomatic way says other countries are under no obligation to view your feelings as anything but feelings and you should probably check the box you were born with.
How many trans cross country runners do you think there are per county/state in the US? The “eastern division” from trans track and field would be like 4 or 5 people lol.
I once saw a big deal made out of a trans figure skater. Who was not that good. Someone said, “sheesh, they couldn’t find a better skater?” No…they found the one and only trans figure skater able to show up and perform. So, yeah they could not find a better skater.
Because one new category won't be enough. The making of categories will never end, just like their flag, it seems to keep changing. So how about that, you really are like biological women who can't make up their dam minds!
This is about whether or not you went through a male puberty. It has nothing directly to do with your biological sex. 9-year-old boys and 9-year-old girls compete at the same level because there's no difference between them. It's when boys hit puberty that they gain their advantage over girls.
Right now, the standard of care for transgender children is for them to make an informed decision, along with their doctors and parents, as to whether they want to go through puberty. Hitting the pause button on development is the right choice for many, and it eases the transition for those who decide they want to do it when they reach adulthood. For those who don't, you just stop the meds and let Mother Nature do her thing.
That's a different debate. But if trans kids weren't banned in several states from getting the care that they need and deserve, this wouldn't be an issue. If you went through male puberty, you must compete with boys/men.
Children do not have the capacity to make permanent changes to their biology, and if gender is NOT tied intrinsically to biology like trans activists claim then there would be no need to halt puberty or mutilate oneself to appear closer to said gender. “Gender affirming care” is therefore an inherent contradiction and is pure child abuse.
I don’t understand. Once someone decides they’re a female, they’re a female. From what I’ve read, there’s no biological difference between males and females. The prevalence of them winning is probably due to all their bottled up trauma causing them to be super competitive.
But I also think, if they’re going to play girl sports, they should try to fit in the best they can. Make sure they’re always smiling. Try and minimize how much they sweat, make sure their uniforms don’t get dirty, and make sure their hair stays nice. If they do all those things and still win, then they deserve it.
There have significant biological differences between men and women.
Men’s hearts and lungs are 10-15pc bigger and capable of pumping much oxygen around the body during exercises.
Men’s bones are denser … osteoporosis is rare in men, but common in women, for example.
Men’s muscles are bigger and the way they connect to the bones is stronger.
Men’s centre of gravity is different. Women’s wider hips push the femars out, which ultimately puts strain on the knee and ACL.
Idk. It only shows the cumulative total of likes/dislikes. We may never know.
There’s nothing I love more than saying absolutely ridiculous shit on Reddit and then getting replies from people that think I’m serious. It’s endlessly funny. They don’t realize they’re the punch line. Depending on how stupid their reply is, I might just keep it going. But idc enough about regular ass boys beating the shit out of athletic girls to carry on here. I actually kind of like it. It’s a real fuck around and find out story, and I like watching it play out.
There’s a zero percent chance anyone would let their daughter step in the boxing ring with a trans athlete. Why is it any different on the track, court or pool? It’s beyond ridiculousness.
It started with gay people just wanting to be treated with respect. That made sense to basically everyone. Then trans folks were like, us too. Again, the majority agreed. You don’t have to be on board to give respect. Then they started competing in sports. In reality, when weighed against other issues, not a big deal. So it continued. Now we’ve got to the point they’re not just high schoolers trying to find their way. But full on adults competing in fields where there’s money on the line. Enough people spoke out to say, hey. What are we doing?
And that’s where the fun began. At this point, you have a large percentage of straight females offering their unwavering support for the trans community, in all aspects. Low and behold, they’re the ones getting punished.
How can anyone not find that funny? That’s high comedy. The Simpsons and Seinfeld never even considered it. It’s completely bonkers. I love it. It’s the only current “big story” that doesn’t affect me emotionally at all. It’s just a big silly show. We’re talking about like a couple dozen people, and it’s all over the media. Hilarious. I just wish there were more videos of the competitions. I imagine bob sagat narrating.
Just let them run open. Women races are for biological women. Identify as a woman does not change your hormone levels. They can run as "women" in the open category. Division is made on sex, not gender.
Thanks God this is completely non existent outside of the US, I couldn't imagine how one of my athletes would feel training for years just to be beaten by a biological man. This is an issue that needs to be adressed as soon as possible, and in better ways than what is currently being done.
Edit: forgot the "how"
He is right though, that would be a non-competition since your athletes would de facto only compete for 2nd place. It's not about being transphobic, it's about giving everyone the same opportunities
Anyone seeking to defend trans athletes competing as women needs to answer one case - Laurel Hubbard in weightlifting. An average lifter with a best of 300kg combined as a 23 year old man who transitioned and went through hormone treatment but still came back at 38, 10 years after most lifters retire, and lifted 285kg, winning silver at the Worlds. Clear proof that going through male puberty is a lasting advantage and that no treatment regime can level the playing field. I am happy to defend trans rights outside sport but nothing can justify using the rights of a tiny minority to damage those of half the population.
Okay so who here wants to talk about a real solution that gives trans kids a place to compete rather than just banning them and pretending that's a fair and moral outcome?
The real solution is a third “open division” or just competing based on birth gender. These are the east solutions already in place. No one is trying to “ban” them from competing they are tying to stop them from competing against woman when they were born with an unfair advantage of being born male.
The solution is the status quo.
There are already open divisions and women divisions. There’s no gender restrictions for (for example) the NBA or the NFL.
Trans athletes should participate in the open division.
IMO the swimming federation’s rule about male puberty makes the most sense, BUT I honestly think inclusion is a more important priority at lower levels of sport. At higher levels (NCAA / Pros) it’s a different story. Then at the same time I really feel for athletes like Caster Semenya and Mboma who have been excluded from competition for nothing they could possibly control.
>BUT I honestly think inclusion is a more important priority at lower levels of sport.
This is what people keep forgetting.
Transgender athletes in high school don't bother me, because the competitive side isn't why I coach high school. I've coached open athletes to the trials/nationals. But I coach high school to teach work ethic, respect to others, teamwork, and to give them something to look forward to each day with their friends at school. A transgender kid here and there doesn't impact that.
Open, college, etc, I'm all for implementing restrictive rules to ensure an even playing field.
This argument makes no sense because even ignoring trans girls there are going to be a range of abilities within the cis girls, so should we restrict the elite girls too because their winning puts off the other girls competing?
But your argument ignores the actual argument being made in the comment you’re responding to.
They’re put off because the competition is now inherently unfair. Some girls being better than others isn’t unfair, but competing against young men IS. We spent generations securing women’s sport, now male privilege is taking it over.
You already do, why keep a young lebron with a bunch of random kids. For most sports the most elite are taken out of the normal ranks into higher ranks. It’s like that one kid in football who can run faster, score nonstop goals, and is too good and it makes it not fun because what’s the point in trying when the skill gap is so massive
High school sports are highly competitive and how athletes place in track and field effects the possibility for scholarships. Also in team sports where there are try outs and limited numbers of people that can be on a team, it is inherently non all inclusive and a transgender athlete can totally effect whether a biological girl makes the team at all.
Place doesn't matter for recruiting, times do. I was recruited for college based solely off my times, the coaches don't care at all about place because it means nothing. I was 4th in the state where I lived but I probably wouldn't have even made states in California.
If someone has a higher place, they have a faster time. That is how races work. Generally schools don't give scholarships to all athletes that has time faster than X. They have a limit to how many scholarships they can give. They might require that an athlete have a time faster than X, but if there are multiple athletes with times faster than X, then they consider other factors like consistency and rank.
How is the fact that majority of scholarships are partial change anything? There is still a limited number of scholarship money, is there not? Are you saying that everyone with times under threshold X gets a scholarship, but if there are many people under that time, each person just get less?
High school sports is the highest level of competition most athletes will ever reach. It’s crazy that any coach would dismiss that. We definitely shouldn’t be stealing that moment to shine from biological females
Yup. High school sports aren’t a participation rec league where the opportunities are passed around equally. I applaud the coach for coaching to higher aspirations than W and Ls, but what they’re stating a bit naive and reductive of what sport is for this age group.
Yea this person sounds like a good coach. But they definitely shouldn’t dismiss that it’s ok to respect the actual competition and let the players be great.
Most of these girls will graduate and never run or swim another competitive race, or play a real game of field hockey or softball for the rest of their life. Because those opportunities just don’t exist in the adult world. There’s *some* adult rec leagues, but very select sports and usually geared toward social aspects and not that competitive.
I’m very left wing in all areas, but trans women should not be allowed in women’s sports. Women’s sports should exist and not be taken over by trans athletes.
This is a ridiculous take. That no big deal athlete is welcome to compete against their peers. Unfortunately, born female athlete are not their peers. They have distinct disadvantages. It’s why we started women’s sports divisions.
Every trans athlete takes the spot of a born female athlete. Those women deserve everything you said above. As coaches we should be protecting our female athletes, not allowing them to be taken advantage of by allowing this ridiculousness.
Tell this to the high school girls who miss out on nationals or regionals because of a transgender. Those girls who miss the cut because of a transgender are missing out on higher competition and scouting opportunities from colleges (aka scholarships).
Calling trans people “a transgender” makes you sound like a bigot. Maybe reconsider your bigotry against an infinitesimally small portion of people simply looking to live their lives.
Nobody is missing out on scholarships because of transgender athletes. If you’re borderline at states or regionals you weren’t getting recruited anyway. And either way you have all season to put up times for recruiting.
And the number of transgender athletes who actually perform at a high level is unbelievably small, really wild that people devote so much time and energy to arguing about this.
The numbers might be small but the results aren't. Not when intersex or transgender athletes scoop up the medals and the records at the Olympics.
At the 2016 Olympics, all three medals in the women's 800 went to intersex athletes. Does it matter that there were only three competing when those three won all the medals?
In the case of intersex athletes, they should be allowed to compete. They're simply rare genetic mutants. As many have said before, no one really complained about Michael Phelps in swimming and Miguel Indurain in cycling.
Intersex athletes are often born with both sets of sexual organs. They snip off the penis and raise the child as a girl. One wrinkle, they still have testicles, and those start producing massive amounts of testosterone during puberty. Awkward.
So unless Phelps was born with two sets of gentials, it's not quite the same thing.
EDIT: They're welcome to compete with other athletes who also have testicles.
No offense, but Caster Semenya was born with exterior female genitalia (not male) and didn't even know she was intersex until she was forced to get sex tested at age 18 (back in 2009). Then it turned out that despite being 46,XY she has exterior female genitalia, an atrophied uterus, and testicles in place of ovaries.
You are illinformed. None of these people likely had snipped sexual organs. They may have internalized sex organs, but without those because they were snipped they would have an advantage you think they get from having testes….
DSD is different from trans. Conflating the two is a tactic of TRAs trying to muddy the science.
They are not excluded from competition. They can compete in the category for which they are qualified. In their cases that still includes competing in the female category if they reduce their hormone levels to within normal female ranges.
Jesus intersex ≠ trans, they are completely different things, and a male trans athlete who went through puberty without going through the process that reduces testorone levels etc will still beat a female intersex athlete let alone your average female pro athlete.
Also keep in mind that lower levels are the introductory part of the sport, you allow trans athletes compete in the girls categories at that level, you'll end up with less motivated female athletes and they won't get to the higher levels.
But you know what, let the US go through with us, just means more medals for us other countries as your female athletes won't be eligible to compete in international competitions 😅
So weird how it keeps happening more and more as trans acceptance grows.
“This rarely happens” was always a bad, disingenuous argument from extremists who know that the reason it rarely happened in the past was because being trans wasn’t accepted so athletes didn’t compete as openly trans. Now that more people are coming out as trans, it’s only going to happen more and more
Weird how this reply is coming from someone who hasn’t contributed anywhere else in the thread. Im sure this isn’t an alt you’re using to astroturf anti-trans rhetoric though surely.
These championships were less competitive than others, and I’d like to call them out. I’m going to use NY state champs as an example.
The TJ winner would have placed 16
The HJ winner would have lost to 26 girls in the open event and four PENTATHLETES
She would have been dead last in the 1500 (converted)
The 800m runner would have placed 21,
The 200m runner of Oregon would have been competitive and may have won. But according to the live results, she placed third, not second and did not make it to finals.
The last runner would have placed and possibly won the 400. I couldn’t find her other results, but going on PRs, she would have been about 25 in the 1500 (converted), and last (32) in the 3000 (converted).
NY doesn’t run a 300 hurdle, so I used CA. She would have come last, 25th by over a second.
Simply put, this isn’t the dominance the article portrays. NH, ME, CT are simply smaller and less competitive.
For example, the fastest 100mHh in New Mexico runs a 15 flat. She would not meet the standards for NBON, 14.58.
Do your fact checking and get your news in track from people who actually know the sport. There’s almost always someone better in track.
This is completely irrelevant to the topic. It doesn't matter if someone in a different state or division ran faster or jumped or threw further.
The issue at hand is fair competition between young women being displaced by confused young men and radical ideologues.
If the argument about trans athletes is that they will dominate at the highest levels (which is the argument I hear) and 'ruin the sport' on a national or international level, then comparing their results to larger audiences is appropriate.
No, because this isn't the best trans athlete either. If you say "well, she might have won the German championship but she is not faster than the Americans so it's not as big of a problem as we thought" no the American trans athletes would also be better
But we aren't saying 'would': we are saying 'is/are'. The comparison here isn't hypothetical. Changing the example, if we said 'well, the Californian (i.e. place with a larger population and better resources) trans girls would also be better' isn't right because the Californian trans girls didn't win.
It is entirely relevant. If it takes one mildly competent athlete to dominate the state, whom would not be competitive basically anywhere else, no one is getting anything taken away from them other than a participation award.
Using lower division high school track to push an agenda is pathetic.
Not remotely close to what I said, but as I did say, you people are using high school track to push an agenda so I understand how you’re unable to be reasonable.
Lower division high school state titles can absolutely be participation awards. If the mark/time isn’t good enough to place in other states/divisions or meet any college recruiting then that is clearly indicative of a very low level of competition.
The mentality that every level is equal *in high school* is insane and toxic positivity. But in the context of what we’re actually talking about here, you people are being intentionally obtuse to make a point. The way this “issue” is discussed and how prevalent it is, you’d think every record book had been rewritten by trans athletes. And yet, all we have are an extreme minority (of an extreme minority) being somewhat competitive at the lowest levels of competition.
I feel like I’m talking to people that have never competed before;
Have you never been to a meet that was decided upon entries? Have you never seen a completely uncompetitive field get washed by someone halfway competent, but would also not be able to compete with actual competition?
Lower. Division. High. School. Track. Can. Be. Extremely. Uncompetitive. I have personally seen someone go undefeated their entire prep career and receive ZERO collegiate interest (at any level). There are levels of high school competition that are literal participation awards for people that are remotely athletic. State titles, in which they aren’t making finals in other states, are in that group if you even attempt to accept that/reality.
The U.S. as a whole gets absolutely rinsed by African countries in the marathon. Does that make national marathon titles participation trophies because the winners can’t hang with the Ethiopians? It’s a lower level of competition since Lemma could just step in and beat any American, so I guess those wins don’t count for anything right?
If I am born color blind I am never allowed to fly an airplane why is it so hard to accept that if I am born male I should not be able to compete against women who don't have the advantage of experiencing male puberty. Trans people (rightly) are all about preserving safe spaces for trans people, why can't they respect the safe space that women have created for themselves in sports?
Because that’s too simple for them to understand in their mental gymnastics. It should be cookie cutter easy. But people keep moving the line of things. Why do we have to abide for 2%of the population’s rules? When did that happen? That’s the craziest part. We keep catering towards trans people for their feelings. Why can’t they be grounded in reality too. Just go race in the open men’s division and stop taking opportunities and medals away from women
Not a triple jumper, but a 14in differential just seems like an exceptionally great jumper is competing in a less competitive state for that event.
What really gets to me in politically charged articles like this rarely take into account nuances of sports, such as levels of technical demand in certain events to push a hateful agenda. Let’s see how that jump compares nationwide and then maybe we can start a conversation about this.
I was a decent track athlete but nothing exceptional (made sectionals but not state in my events). My PRs (even in events I did once or twice) were better than this year's WI state champs' marks in 8 separate events. It's just not comparable
If you read the study, which I did, they leave out so much relevant information. Of course if you are testing elite women against mediocre men who are trans, the gap between will be relatively small. Take an elite man verses an elite woman however, and those gaps are considerable. But elite men are not the ones transitioning. Therefore looking at vi2 max for average men and average women the gap would also be great. We are almost always talking about the 300th ranked male and elite females of any category. The males are then winning even though the gap is small. Again if they trans man is compared to the cis man then the gap is also greater towards the elite verses the 300th ranked…it is never apples to apples because elite men are not trans…and therefore all your slipped science is flawed from the start
in general the comments sections in this sub have always been problematic and reactionary/ultra nationalistic etc on every possible issue, so this particular comments section is no surprise at all
Nothing ;like an inflammatory transphobic headline to tell you that someone has an agenda. The Washington Times is an extremely right-wing "news" outlet. I'm not saying that trans athletes definitely didn't win any state titles, but I'm skeptical of this article to say the least.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-times/
I swear, the only time places like this ever "care" about girls' and women's sport is when they can use it to attack trans people.
In what way is the headline transphobic? How the fuck can you be skeptical when it's public data to look up?
One of the states was mine. I watched the race they smoked the rest of the competition.
No one is attacking trans people. There just needs to be a different way to be inclusive than the current.
"All of the male-born competitors complied with their state transgender policies allowing them to enter the girls’ field based on self-declared gender identity."
Seems like all these states have already decided how they want to handle this situation and the athletes complied. So what's the point of this "story"? There is so little information in this article it's basically only the headline. They don't tell you which schools the athletes were from, what events they competed in, etc. They interview one person in this piece that isn't affiliated with the states or schools and isn't even a track athlete - why is their opinion relevant? The only point of publishing this is to get people to read the headline and be upset.
Its fine if you agree with the agenda that the washington times has, but you should at least be honest that they do have an agenda.
There are some topics that cannot even be discussed without one side being labeled as x-phobic or x-cist. Until that stops happening, society will continue to spin the tires on these issues.
Thank you for making me understand why this has been bugging me so much. By far the most I've watched the public talk about girls sports has been to discuss trans issues.
Rage bait title for emotionally driven topic during political season.
The saddest thing about this post is there are a lot of young people on this sub who don't even understand the source or why this actually being written - someone wants you to know someone is coming for you and you should be scared!
Which of course is complete horseshit. Transgender athletes are not 'going after women'. They're just trying to live their lives.
No they aren't going after woman, but they still have an extremely unfair physical advantages against the rest of the competition. I think it's extremely silly to jeopardize the integrity of the sport for the sake of inclusivity.
Lmfao this is what Americans get for trying to force transgenderism down our throats. There's a reason why the concept of MAN and WOMAN was established before this delusion.
Weird. I’ve never once felt like transgenderism is being forced down my throat.
Is it possible you’ve fallen victim to the rage bait and fear mongering propagated by various media outlets? I tend to ignore those and live my life and treat people the way I’d like to be treated — with courtesy and respect.
I'm pretty far leaning left and even I think this is total horseshit. You can't just say you are a male and race females. Anyone saying otherwise has obviously never competed in a sport or don't have a daughter that competes in sport.
I'm sorry but this article is terrible. Which schools? What percentage of transgender MTF athletes have gotten first compared to the number of MTF athletes in track? Data, not these opinion pieces, shows that after HRT, trans athletes perform at the same level as the sex they identify with. This is just sad to see this support for an article clearly made without statistics in mind.
It's much easier to believe what you already believe.
Washington times is just a right wing rag at this point. It used to do actual journalism but that was 20 years ago.
"All of the male-born competitors complied with their state transgender policies allowing them to enter the girls’ field based on self-declared gender identity."
This line makes all this a nothing burger.
Without even basic stuff like the schools or what events or even just what level of competition this is basically equivalent of those facebook posts about kids needing litter boxes in school.
Sources are very nice, because people lie constantly. Especially about trans people. So I'd love to see where thats from.
But regardless, raw numbers mean very little. What percentage of MTF athletes win first place consistently? Compare that to the percentage of cis female athletes who win first place consistently in competitions which allow MTF athletes.
Unfortunately I'm not aware of a study that has been done about that. But a study I am aware of is the following:
[https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586.abstract](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586.abstract)
Which suggests that trans athletes may even have a DISADVANTAGE in sports. Here is a Forbes article covering it:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseyedarvin/2024/04/25/transgender-athletes-could-be-at-a-physical-disadvantage-new-research-shows/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseyedarvin/2024/04/25/transgender-athletes-could-be-at-a-physical-disadvantage-new-research-shows/)
And if that isn't enough, I can speak from personal experience. I'm MTF, currently taking feminizing HRT. Feminizing HRT causes muscle deterioration, and patients are encouraged to work out to make sure their muscles do not atrophy.
If you're worried about anything, you should be worried about MTF athletes being destroyed by cis men (I have a famous anecdote about this), or about FTM athletes, essentially on legal steroids, performing against cis women.
I am begging you, and many others on this post, to take more care in the inflammatory views stated. These are real people and real people's lives. Decisions should not be made on what you BELIEVE to be correct, but what you KNOW to be correct, which backing if you are challenged.
I'm a trans guy and agree that trans men on T shouldn't be competing against women, but maybe don't call HRT 'essentially steroids' when the goal of HRT is to bring T levels into a normal male range. It's really difficult to get above cis male levels of T from HRT because excess testosterone will aromatase into estrogen, and you have to take aromatase inhibitors and such to achieve higher T levels. At which point I agree that they would be taking steroids and should be treated as such during competitions.
I like to train powerlifting, and a few years ago was really interested in competing in some local powerlifting meets. But I found that because of the rhetoric that FTM HRT is like taking steroids, my only option to compete would be in the non-tested league, which is primarily made up by people on gear. My T levels are in the 600s and I don't use gear, so it's not like I had a reason to compete in the non-tested league and I actually would have been at a disadvantage in that league, while also not having had any kind of advantage competing in the tested league. A lot of sports already piss test for steroids (which isn't even that effective if people know how to time their cycles), I don't see why trans men shouldn't be able to submit recent blood work showing normal male T levels and then be able to compete in an untested league.
You're absolutely right, I'm sorry for the way I worded it! I was more focused on making a point than being accurate. I appreciate the explanation cause I didn't know.
No worries at all! I totally understand how it can be difficult to get a point across concisely without simplifying something else that is related to it. Have a good night 👍
So your sources are more credible than others when it comes to the advantages other medical experts claim MTF athletes have over biological females athletes?
I read this on woman’s sports policy working group. I was just sharing what I read.
My sources are more credible because the first article includes no information on what the competition was, what the schools are, who any of the people are, and no linked study so I can't even know how they gathered data to reach this conclusion.
You didn't provide a source, you quoted something you think you read from who knows where.
You know, I read somewhere that even though there are 3 million trans athletes, only 2 have ever gotten in 3rd or greater! It doesn't mean anything if I have anything to back it up.
Just FYI, Canada's track and field lists their categories as Male and Female to avoid this. That's all you need to do. Change Men's to male and Women's to female. Problem solved.
I'm fine with someone choosing a lifestyle of their choice, more power to them. I am not OK with this, it's obviously wrong. I've never been ok with trans athletes winning female sports, makes me feel they are doing it solely for this benefit. Could be wrong, but c'mon.
Not sure how common this really is, despite rightwing media hyping it up, but seems like there’s not an easy solution. Forcing girls and women to compete with biological men is unfair. Maybe a separate category where possible?
I’m as liberal and pro lgbtq as they come but I do have some hesitation about this. I know I know they lower their testosterone or whatever but still seems unfair.
Was this topic already discussed earlier this week, and the main thing that was pointed out was the states the transgender athletes won in were small track and field states?
And then someone posted the open times and provided what rank the transgender athletes would have got if they ran open and almost none of the winners would have been top 10 in open?
Biological men have a bigger heart, lungs, stronger cardiovascular system, can take more pain, have a thicker stronger musculature, have stronger skeletonal muscle, more type 2 muscle fibers. Letting me suddenly put on a wig and saying Im a girl now and letting me compete against other females is like a guy from senior varsity football in high school go down and play with 7th and 8th graders. Its no wonder guys that were ranked 700th in the state are suddenly number one playing with other females. Just like the guy in the comment below me, why are we letting these sub one percenters completely change all the rules at the expense of real female athletes who should be completing among themselves?
I mean, why is this even a thing?
Biological men have an unfair advantage.
This reminds me of that radio host who boxes women for concert tickets.
These women knowingly want to box with him for these.
They all got knocked on their behinds after trash talking.
God, the transphobia here is making me sick. I'm a transmasc high schooler. Distance runner. I hate racing against girls because it makes me remember how much i should be like them yet am not, and it makes me feel like a failure. I would give anything to be able to race against the boys regardless of how many places I would lose.
I am not on HRT. If I went on HRT, they would not allow me to race at all, because it would "put me at an unfair advantage" against the girls, and I wouldn't be allowed to race against the boys because regardless of how I've been presenting myself for fucking YEARS, all they can see is that I'm biologically female.
(our sprinters raced against a transfem girl at a meet. She got like 6th in a heat of 8, and it wasn't even the fast heat. being biologically male doesn't always give you massive advantages, especially against people who are very good at what they do. she was not someone who "chose to identify as the opposite gender" in order to win competitions - that is fearmongering and transphobia, not reality. she was a trans person who happened to be an athlete.)
another note - when people say that they don't want women to be racing against "a man in a woman's clothing", that is not you being afraid of or wary of a trans woman. that is you being wary of a man. please know the difference. I understand the sentiment that you carry when it comes to trans individuals in sports, but please understand that your rhetoric is harmful to the trans community and the policies it causes can also be harmful to fully cis women.
>(our sprinters raced against a transfem girl at a meet. She got like 6th in a heat of 8, and it wasn't even the fast heat. being biologically male doesn't always give you massive advantages, especially against people who are very good at what they do.
I think this kind of misframes the idea of what constitutes an unfair advantage. There is a wide range of performance amongst both males and females. Some females outperform some males. But if we graphed the performance of males in a histogram, we would expect something like a bell curve, and the same is true for the females, but the male bell curve is shifted towards higher performance compared to the female bell curve. The bell curves would overlap, indicating that some women outperform some men, but the bell curves aren't the same either.
Imagine I measured the times of males in a race (let's say 100 m). I could graph their times to get a bell curve that represented this population. Then lets say I took the same group and had them shift the starting line forward 2 m, so now they only run 98 m. I would get a different set of times. If I compared the two sets of times, I would find that some of the people running 100 m had a lower time than some of the people running 98 m.
I could compare the bell curves of the times at 100 m and at 98 m, and I would see that they were offset, but that they overlapped, in a way that isn't dissimilar to the male/female graphs.
If I had a race where I let one contestant start 2 m in front of the others, it would be unfair. It wouldn't matter whether they won or not. I would expect that if I picked a person at random to start 2 m in front, that sometimes they would lose, and if I had a randomly selected person run 98 m against the best runners at 100 m, the random person would lose most of the time. But it would still be unfair.
Males as a group have an unfair advantage against females. That doesn't mean every male can beat every female, just like sometimes a person running 100 m will beat a person running 98 m. But the advantage is still there even when they lose.
That's not right, but its also a fine line to trapse. It's like we need a new catagory to put them in. So then there'd be Male, Female and Transgender.
Is this a US thing? Because in the UK it is very much Male and Female and then occasionally you'll have races/events that are graded based on performance(usually at lower standard comps and paced comps like the BMCs). I've definitely seen at least one female athlete get refused to be in a male race.
It’s not. It’s something some people want, and some are pretending it’s already a thing. It is how our big pro sports are, so some are assuming track is that way.
I was gonna say, I'm in the US and when I ran track and swam for my high school, events were broken up by distance and gender, i.e. "boys" and "girls". Never heard of an "open" class. Is this a California thing?
There is female and open (male). There is not enough of them for a third category and it wouldn't be worth it to host. We already have trouble in many female leagues, no way we can support a third in 99% of sports
You make a good point.
I remember when A girl wanted to wrestle, but there were no other girls to wrestle with, so she wrestled with the boys.
She ended up winning the state title in her weight class, but only because no boy would wrestle her, so they all defaulted and she just automatically advanced.
I also remember when a girl wanted to play little league when we were kids (ended up going to high school with her and may have introduced her to her now husband). There were no other girls playing little league so she played with the boys.
So I guess, "Open" it would be.
Male's and transgender either way would be in the open division. You'd continue to protect women's sports through title nine as currently written and you'd allow anyone else who'd like to compete to do so in the open division.
These kids are already at higher risk for self harm and suicide and turn to sports as a way to hopefully build self confidence. State associations decide what that looks like, not the kids. Leave the kids alone. Stop booing them. Stop attacking them online. Show some compassion and empathy. If you feel that trans girls in the girls division have an unfair advantage, take it up with the adults in charge at the state and national levels.
This is the number one national scourge for conservatives. A handful of mtf athletes will get a competitive advantage and win state out of thousands of competitions, and get to hang out with their friends and feel more comfortable. Pretty much every governing body bans this for professional sports, so it seems like a non-issue to me. The sky is not falling
5 state titles out of how many available? Ok 50 states, let’s assume at least 4 divisions per state (some have 5 or 6), and 16 events? 3,200 state championships. So 0.1% of them were won by trans athletes.
That would be assuming that a trans athlete was in each race…how about going and saying that there are say 100 trans athletes and they won 98 titles…that is of course hypocritical…but that is the only way to count the impact of trans athletes…
Sure but I don’t think we know that answer. But my point is it’s not like somehow women are now missing every single title opportunity. And there’s a lot to talk about with this discussion, and we’re kind of ignoring the main question anyways, what really is important? Imho it’s making sure kids can be themselves.
Some of those kids’ selves should be girls’ state champion or medallist in their chosen event, but it isn’t because they had to compete against (biological) males.
Trans people can dress and behave and ask to be referred to in accordance with whatever sex-based stereotypes they like, and absolutely should not face any persecution for doing so. But trans women are men and trans men are women, and in the very small range of activities in which that’s relevant they should be treated like all other members of their sex. Sport is one of those activities.
It doesn’t matter if other states have better athletes in general or if trans girls didn’t win all the events. The girls entered a girls’ event, and couldn’t win because boys were also allowed to take part. It isn’t fair on those girls.
5 athletic events full of athletes that have trained for years for their opportunity to compete and had to race/jump/throw against someone with an unfair advantage.
The winner doesn’t just affect that particular event. Some woman who trained well north of 1000hrs that year got bumped off the sectional, divisional and state teams. Then at the state meet every one of those women got bummed down a peg. Their teams missed out on points.
Protect title 9.
I can’t believe no one has brought this up yet but the Washington Times was founded by and is still owned by the Unification Church, historically known at the Moonies, aka an incredible well documented and very large CULT. So, while I think a conversation with nuance about trans people in sport is totally possible, I’m not confident this is a great source to rely on 🤣
There’s been quite a lot of discourse regarding transgender athletes. To be clear, while I support transgender rights, the integrity of athletic competition is called into question when allowing biological men to compete in competitions meant for females. There is a myriad of physiological differences including testosterone levels, lung capacity, fat distribution, lean muscle mass, heart size, and several other variables which dictate men’s higher inherent athletic capabilities. While there is some research to suggest that HRT can equalize these physiological differences, most transgender high schoolers have not been on these medications long enough to justify allowing them to compete (the literature mostly considers only HRT in relation to lean muscle mass, and not other factors such as lung capacity). Thus regardless of HRT, transgender females likely have greater physiological advantages over biological females. The argument that by not allowing transgender people to engage in high school athletics results in unfair opportunity for these transgender students is simply unfounded. The harm it does to biologically female athletes by detracting from their performances in competition is much greater than a <1% population needing “equal opportunity”. A really simple fix would be to have an open league where transgender athletes are able to compete freely. Biological women deserve a space where they compete free from controversy. It is a great unfairness to allow people who simply “identify” as transgender to infiltrate their space to compete. T&F feels like a great sport to recognize both men’s and women’s accomplishments. Especially considering the popularity of events like the women’s 100, 200, 400H, and many others. This entire argument is reduced to “equal opportunity” and “being woke” while ignoring how it detracts from the achievements of biological females.
In many athletic endeavors there is an open category for any person of any gender to enter for competition. Our idea that a men's division exists because men dominate open competition. Golf for instance has opens, women can compete against men freely. There is a protected women's division because the vast majority can not compete in open. Telling transitioning females they should play in open isn't gendering them or putting them in some small box. It's saying you are like everyone else, compete with everyone else.
Very nice and intellectually articulate way to say “This some bullshit.”
Americans are so afraid to simply say that, it’s actually funny how america turned from the most opinionated douches of the world, to 20 years later now being petrified to even imply that dudes beating women in their own sports groups is stupid as shit. Dude had navigate a response instead of just going “what the fuck? There’s men playing in women’s sports?”
Agreed, these are boys/men competing against girls/women ... and it is wrong. A woman trains her whole HS/collegiate career only to get beaten by a man in woman's clothing. How woke have we become?
Why not make a category for trans men and women?
Just make Men's division "Open". Simple
They are.
The Olympic committee did, for swimming. No entries.
Most other countries don’t deal with this nonsense. We had to apply for passports for our kids this spring. Right on the application it gives you choices and I believe an other box. But in the most diplomatic way says other countries are under no obligation to view your feelings as anything but feelings and you should probably check the box you were born with.
How many trans cross country runners do you think there are per county/state in the US? The “eastern division” from trans track and field would be like 4 or 5 people lol. I once saw a big deal made out of a trans figure skater. Who was not that good. Someone said, “sheesh, they couldn’t find a better skater?” No…they found the one and only trans figure skater able to show up and perform. So, yeah they could not find a better skater.
Because every conference track meet will have like three competitors
Because trans men would complain. I’m not trying to be caustic here, it just wouldn’t be fair.
Because one new category won't be enough. The making of categories will never end, just like their flag, it seems to keep changing. So how about that, you really are like biological women who can't make up their dam minds!
This is about whether or not you went through a male puberty. It has nothing directly to do with your biological sex. 9-year-old boys and 9-year-old girls compete at the same level because there's no difference between them. It's when boys hit puberty that they gain their advantage over girls. Right now, the standard of care for transgender children is for them to make an informed decision, along with their doctors and parents, as to whether they want to go through puberty. Hitting the pause button on development is the right choice for many, and it eases the transition for those who decide they want to do it when they reach adulthood. For those who don't, you just stop the meds and let Mother Nature do her thing. That's a different debate. But if trans kids weren't banned in several states from getting the care that they need and deserve, this wouldn't be an issue. If you went through male puberty, you must compete with boys/men.
Children do not have the capacity to make permanent changes to their biology, and if gender is NOT tied intrinsically to biology like trans activists claim then there would be no need to halt puberty or mutilate oneself to appear closer to said gender. “Gender affirming care” is therefore an inherent contradiction and is pure child abuse.
I don’t understand. Once someone decides they’re a female, they’re a female. From what I’ve read, there’s no biological difference between males and females. The prevalence of them winning is probably due to all their bottled up trauma causing them to be super competitive. But I also think, if they’re going to play girl sports, they should try to fit in the best they can. Make sure they’re always smiling. Try and minimize how much they sweat, make sure their uniforms don’t get dirty, and make sure their hair stays nice. If they do all those things and still win, then they deserve it.
Please say sike…
What? Isn’t this the opinion I’m supposed to have? I’m just doing what I’m told.
There have significant biological differences between men and women. Men’s hearts and lungs are 10-15pc bigger and capable of pumping much oxygen around the body during exercises. Men’s bones are denser … osteoporosis is rare in men, but common in women, for example. Men’s muscles are bigger and the way they connect to the bones is stronger. Men’s centre of gravity is different. Women’s wider hips push the femars out, which ultimately puts strain on the knee and ACL.
My guy. This comment was sarcastic. I thought the part about smiling and trying not to sweat gave it away.
LOL didn’t pick up on the sarcasm. 5am 😂
Nobody got the joke
Idk. It only shows the cumulative total of likes/dislikes. We may never know. There’s nothing I love more than saying absolutely ridiculous shit on Reddit and then getting replies from people that think I’m serious. It’s endlessly funny. They don’t realize they’re the punch line. Depending on how stupid their reply is, I might just keep it going. But idc enough about regular ass boys beating the shit out of athletic girls to carry on here. I actually kind of like it. It’s a real fuck around and find out story, and I like watching it play out.
There’s a zero percent chance anyone would let their daughter step in the boxing ring with a trans athlete. Why is it any different on the track, court or pool? It’s beyond ridiculousness.
It started with gay people just wanting to be treated with respect. That made sense to basically everyone. Then trans folks were like, us too. Again, the majority agreed. You don’t have to be on board to give respect. Then they started competing in sports. In reality, when weighed against other issues, not a big deal. So it continued. Now we’ve got to the point they’re not just high schoolers trying to find their way. But full on adults competing in fields where there’s money on the line. Enough people spoke out to say, hey. What are we doing? And that’s where the fun began. At this point, you have a large percentage of straight females offering their unwavering support for the trans community, in all aspects. Low and behold, they’re the ones getting punished. How can anyone not find that funny? That’s high comedy. The Simpsons and Seinfeld never even considered it. It’s completely bonkers. I love it. It’s the only current “big story” that doesn’t affect me emotionally at all. It’s just a big silly show. We’re talking about like a couple dozen people, and it’s all over the media. Hilarious. I just wish there were more videos of the competitions. I imagine bob sagat narrating.
South Park saw it coming. Look for a clip called “Strong Woman”.
Just let them run open. Women races are for biological women. Identify as a woman does not change your hormone levels. They can run as "women" in the open category. Division is made on sex, not gender.
Thanks God this is completely non existent outside of the US, I couldn't imagine how one of my athletes would feel training for years just to be beaten by a biological man. This is an issue that needs to be adressed as soon as possible, and in better ways than what is currently being done. Edit: forgot the "how"
It really isn't. It is becoming all too common in the UK, just our athletics video coverage is not as comprehensive as in the US.
The day my female athletes race a transgender is my last day on the job. I’ve gone so far as to let the parents know during our parent meetings.
Get ready because it's becoming more frequent.
That’s fine by me and Ive accepted it. I’m not having one of my female athletes compete in unfair circumstances on my watch.
You need to fight. Do not give up.
That’s a bizarre philosophy to have. Respectfully I wonder how many parents think you’re an asshole.
He is right though, that would be a non-competition since your athletes would de facto only compete for 2nd place. It's not about being transphobic, it's about giving everyone the same opportunities
Our school is welcome to hire another coach. I would recommend dropping the sport altogether though to our board. Races should be fair.
Only reasonable comment I’ve seen on this post.
Identify as anything, but you can’t reasonably race as a woman when born as a male. The hormones change the body and its physical limits.
Anyone seeking to defend trans athletes competing as women needs to answer one case - Laurel Hubbard in weightlifting. An average lifter with a best of 300kg combined as a 23 year old man who transitioned and went through hormone treatment but still came back at 38, 10 years after most lifters retire, and lifted 285kg, winning silver at the Worlds. Clear proof that going through male puberty is a lasting advantage and that no treatment regime can level the playing field. I am happy to defend trans rights outside sport but nothing can justify using the rights of a tiny minority to damage those of half the population.
Okay so who here wants to talk about a real solution that gives trans kids a place to compete rather than just banning them and pretending that's a fair and moral outcome?
The real solution is a third “open division” or just competing based on birth gender. These are the east solutions already in place. No one is trying to “ban” them from competing they are tying to stop them from competing against woman when they were born with an unfair advantage of being born male.
We don’t need a 3rd division. We always have Women’s and Open in all sports. There’s no such thing as “men’s” sports by rule.
Yeah I agree, that’s why I said they are already in place.
The solution is the status quo. There are already open divisions and women divisions. There’s no gender restrictions for (for example) the NBA or the NFL. Trans athletes should participate in the open division.
Protect Women’s sports. Men are stronger and faster than women.
IMO the swimming federation’s rule about male puberty makes the most sense, BUT I honestly think inclusion is a more important priority at lower levels of sport. At higher levels (NCAA / Pros) it’s a different story. Then at the same time I really feel for athletes like Caster Semenya and Mboma who have been excluded from competition for nothing they could possibly control.
>BUT I honestly think inclusion is a more important priority at lower levels of sport. This is what people keep forgetting. Transgender athletes in high school don't bother me, because the competitive side isn't why I coach high school. I've coached open athletes to the trials/nationals. But I coach high school to teach work ethic, respect to others, teamwork, and to give them something to look forward to each day with their friends at school. A transgender kid here and there doesn't impact that. Open, college, etc, I'm all for implementing restrictive rules to ensure an even playing field.
Might not impact you as the coach, but it's gonna put those poor girls off playing and competing
This argument makes no sense because even ignoring trans girls there are going to be a range of abilities within the cis girls, so should we restrict the elite girls too because their winning puts off the other girls competing?
Isn't that the idea behind JV and Varsity?
But your argument ignores the actual argument being made in the comment you’re responding to. They’re put off because the competition is now inherently unfair. Some girls being better than others isn’t unfair, but competing against young men IS. We spent generations securing women’s sport, now male privilege is taking it over.
You already do, why keep a young lebron with a bunch of random kids. For most sports the most elite are taken out of the normal ranks into higher ranks. It’s like that one kid in football who can run faster, score nonstop goals, and is too good and it makes it not fun because what’s the point in trying when the skill gap is so massive
High school sports are highly competitive and how athletes place in track and field effects the possibility for scholarships. Also in team sports where there are try outs and limited numbers of people that can be on a team, it is inherently non all inclusive and a transgender athlete can totally effect whether a biological girl makes the team at all.
Place doesn't matter for recruiting, times do. I was recruited for college based solely off my times, the coaches don't care at all about place because it means nothing. I was 4th in the state where I lived but I probably wouldn't have even made states in California.
If someone has a higher place, they have a faster time. That is how races work. Generally schools don't give scholarships to all athletes that has time faster than X. They have a limit to how many scholarships they can give. They might require that an athlete have a time faster than X, but if there are multiple athletes with times faster than X, then they consider other factors like consistency and rank.
You are uninformed about scholarships in track it seems.zzz
Please inform me. Are you saying all athletes with times faster than some threshold get scholarships, no matter how many there are?
You’ve missed the point. The vast majority of track scholarships are given as partial scholarships.
How is the fact that majority of scholarships are partial change anything? There is still a limited number of scholarship money, is there not? Are you saying that everyone with times under threshold X gets a scholarship, but if there are many people under that time, each person just get less?
This really sounds like the bad faith Ivy League arguments.. you don’t get it
High school sports is the highest level of competition most athletes will ever reach. It’s crazy that any coach would dismiss that. We definitely shouldn’t be stealing that moment to shine from biological females
Yup. High school sports aren’t a participation rec league where the opportunities are passed around equally. I applaud the coach for coaching to higher aspirations than W and Ls, but what they’re stating a bit naive and reductive of what sport is for this age group.
Yea this person sounds like a good coach. But they definitely shouldn’t dismiss that it’s ok to respect the actual competition and let the players be great. Most of these girls will graduate and never run or swim another competitive race, or play a real game of field hockey or softball for the rest of their life. Because those opportunities just don’t exist in the adult world. There’s *some* adult rec leagues, but very select sports and usually geared toward social aspects and not that competitive. I’m very left wing in all areas, but trans women should not be allowed in women’s sports. Women’s sports should exist and not be taken over by trans athletes.
Those high school athletes are competing for college scholarship opportunities.
Side note here, but you sound like a great coach.
This is a ridiculous take. That no big deal athlete is welcome to compete against their peers. Unfortunately, born female athlete are not their peers. They have distinct disadvantages. It’s why we started women’s sports divisions. Every trans athlete takes the spot of a born female athlete. Those women deserve everything you said above. As coaches we should be protecting our female athletes, not allowing them to be taken advantage of by allowing this ridiculousness.
Tell this to the high school girls who miss out on nationals or regionals because of a transgender. Those girls who miss the cut because of a transgender are missing out on higher competition and scouting opportunities from colleges (aka scholarships).
Calling trans people “a transgender” makes you sound like a bigot. Maybe reconsider your bigotry against an infinitesimally small portion of people simply looking to live their lives.
For real, reeks of "a black," ,"a gay", it's dehumanizing language
Nobody is missing out on scholarships because of transgender athletes. If you’re borderline at states or regionals you weren’t getting recruited anyway. And either way you have all season to put up times for recruiting. And the number of transgender athletes who actually perform at a high level is unbelievably small, really wild that people devote so much time and energy to arguing about this.
The numbers might be small but the results aren't. Not when intersex or transgender athletes scoop up the medals and the records at the Olympics. At the 2016 Olympics, all three medals in the women's 800 went to intersex athletes. Does it matter that there were only three competing when those three won all the medals?
In the case of intersex athletes, they should be allowed to compete. They're simply rare genetic mutants. As many have said before, no one really complained about Michael Phelps in swimming and Miguel Indurain in cycling.
Phelps wasn't competing in a field that was specifically limited by biology to make it fair. He's essentially in the open category.
Intersex athletes are often born with both sets of sexual organs. They snip off the penis and raise the child as a girl. One wrinkle, they still have testicles, and those start producing massive amounts of testosterone during puberty. Awkward. So unless Phelps was born with two sets of gentials, it's not quite the same thing. EDIT: They're welcome to compete with other athletes who also have testicles.
No offense, but Caster Semenya was born with exterior female genitalia (not male) and didn't even know she was intersex until she was forced to get sex tested at age 18 (back in 2009). Then it turned out that despite being 46,XY she has exterior female genitalia, an atrophied uterus, and testicles in place of ovaries.
Right - there are a variety of intersex conditions, and I should probably have said so.
You are illinformed. None of these people likely had snipped sexual organs. They may have internalized sex organs, but without those because they were snipped they would have an advantage you think they get from having testes….
DSD is different from trans. Conflating the two is a tactic of TRAs trying to muddy the science. They are not excluded from competition. They can compete in the category for which they are qualified. In their cases that still includes competing in the female category if they reduce their hormone levels to within normal female ranges.
Jesus intersex ≠ trans, they are completely different things, and a male trans athlete who went through puberty without going through the process that reduces testorone levels etc will still beat a female intersex athlete let alone your average female pro athlete. Also keep in mind that lower levels are the introductory part of the sport, you allow trans athletes compete in the girls categories at that level, you'll end up with less motivated female athletes and they won't get to the higher levels. But you know what, let the US go through with us, just means more medals for us other countries as your female athletes won't be eligible to compete in international competitions 😅
I never equated intersex with trans, but athletes like Semenya and Mboma will get caught up in lots of policies designed to exclude trans athletes.
But I thought “this never actually happens”
So weird how it keeps happening more and more as trans acceptance grows. “This rarely happens” was always a bad, disingenuous argument from extremists who know that the reason it rarely happened in the past was because being trans wasn’t accepted so athletes didn’t compete as openly trans. Now that more people are coming out as trans, it’s only going to happen more and more
[удалено]
You can address this issue in a respectful way. Try again
Get lost buddy. This is a conversation that needs to be had but that doesn’t mean you get to disrespect people.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine.
Weird how this reply is coming from someone who hasn’t contributed anywhere else in the thread. Im sure this isn’t an alt you’re using to astroturf anti-trans rhetoric though surely.
These championships were less competitive than others, and I’d like to call them out. I’m going to use NY state champs as an example. The TJ winner would have placed 16 The HJ winner would have lost to 26 girls in the open event and four PENTATHLETES She would have been dead last in the 1500 (converted) The 800m runner would have placed 21, The 200m runner of Oregon would have been competitive and may have won. But according to the live results, she placed third, not second and did not make it to finals. The last runner would have placed and possibly won the 400. I couldn’t find her other results, but going on PRs, she would have been about 25 in the 1500 (converted), and last (32) in the 3000 (converted). NY doesn’t run a 300 hurdle, so I used CA. She would have come last, 25th by over a second. Simply put, this isn’t the dominance the article portrays. NH, ME, CT are simply smaller and less competitive. For example, the fastest 100mHh in New Mexico runs a 15 flat. She would not meet the standards for NBON, 14.58. Do your fact checking and get your news in track from people who actually know the sport. There’s almost always someone better in track.
This is completely irrelevant to the topic. It doesn't matter if someone in a different state or division ran faster or jumped or threw further. The issue at hand is fair competition between young women being displaced by confused young men and radical ideologues.
If the argument about trans athletes is that they will dominate at the highest levels (which is the argument I hear) and 'ruin the sport' on a national or international level, then comparing their results to larger audiences is appropriate.
No, because this isn't the best trans athlete either. If you say "well, she might have won the German championship but she is not faster than the Americans so it's not as big of a problem as we thought" no the American trans athletes would also be better
But we aren't saying 'would': we are saying 'is/are'. The comparison here isn't hypothetical. Changing the example, if we said 'well, the Californian (i.e. place with a larger population and better resources) trans girls would also be better' isn't right because the Californian trans girls didn't win.
You understand what my point was and I don't think you can deny it
I do understand your point, but I also don't think it is apt here, hence my counter example using it.
It is entirely relevant. If it takes one mildly competent athlete to dominate the state, whom would not be competitive basically anywhere else, no one is getting anything taken away from them other than a participation award. Using lower division high school track to push an agenda is pathetic.
So unless you’re the best in the world your wins don’t count for anything? Winning a state title is never a “participation trophy”
Not remotely close to what I said, but as I did say, you people are using high school track to push an agenda so I understand how you’re unable to be reasonable. Lower division high school state titles can absolutely be participation awards. If the mark/time isn’t good enough to place in other states/divisions or meet any college recruiting then that is clearly indicative of a very low level of competition. The mentality that every level is equal *in high school* is insane and toxic positivity. But in the context of what we’re actually talking about here, you people are being intentionally obtuse to make a point. The way this “issue” is discussed and how prevalent it is, you’d think every record book had been rewritten by trans athletes. And yet, all we have are an extreme minority (of an extreme minority) being somewhat competitive at the lowest levels of competition.
Brother if you win the race it’s not a participation trophy. The level of competition is irrelevant
I feel like I’m talking to people that have never competed before; Have you never been to a meet that was decided upon entries? Have you never seen a completely uncompetitive field get washed by someone halfway competent, but would also not be able to compete with actual competition? Lower. Division. High. School. Track. Can. Be. Extremely. Uncompetitive. I have personally seen someone go undefeated their entire prep career and receive ZERO collegiate interest (at any level). There are levels of high school competition that are literal participation awards for people that are remotely athletic. State titles, in which they aren’t making finals in other states, are in that group if you even attempt to accept that/reality.
Just commenting to say you've been wrong throughout this whole thread.
Just commenting to say you've been right throughout this whole thread.
The U.S. as a whole gets absolutely rinsed by African countries in the marathon. Does that make national marathon titles participation trophies because the winners can’t hang with the Ethiopians? It’s a lower level of competition since Lemma could just step in and beat any American, so I guess those wins don’t count for anything right?
Just commenting to say that you’ve been wrong throughout this entire thread.
If I am born color blind I am never allowed to fly an airplane why is it so hard to accept that if I am born male I should not be able to compete against women who don't have the advantage of experiencing male puberty. Trans people (rightly) are all about preserving safe spaces for trans people, why can't they respect the safe space that women have created for themselves in sports?
Because that’s too simple for them to understand in their mental gymnastics. It should be cookie cutter easy. But people keep moving the line of things. Why do we have to abide for 2%of the population’s rules? When did that happen? That’s the craziest part. We keep catering towards trans people for their feelings. Why can’t they be grounded in reality too. Just go race in the open men’s division and stop taking opportunities and medals away from women
Not a triple jumper, but a 14in differential just seems like an exceptionally great jumper is competing in a less competitive state for that event. What really gets to me in politically charged articles like this rarely take into account nuances of sports, such as levels of technical demand in certain events to push a hateful agenda. Let’s see how that jump compares nationwide and then maybe we can start a conversation about this.
Nationwide the truth I that a mediocre high school boys mark in any event is a state winning mark for girls. That’s the truth across the country.
I was a decent track athlete but nothing exceptional (made sectionals but not state in my events). My PRs (even in events I did once or twice) were better than this year's WI state champs' marks in 8 separate events. It's just not comparable
If you read the study, which I did, they leave out so much relevant information. Of course if you are testing elite women against mediocre men who are trans, the gap between will be relatively small. Take an elite man verses an elite woman however, and those gaps are considerable. But elite men are not the ones transitioning. Therefore looking at vi2 max for average men and average women the gap would also be great. We are almost always talking about the 300th ranked male and elite females of any category. The males are then winning even though the gap is small. Again if they trans man is compared to the cis man then the gap is also greater towards the elite verses the 300th ranked…it is never apples to apples because elite men are not trans…and therefore all your slipped science is flawed from the start
Stop turning men into women. Problem solved.
Fuck those kids tbh, they know its unfair. Its gone too far.
in general the comments sections in this sub have always been problematic and reactionary/ultra nationalistic etc on every possible issue, so this particular comments section is no surprise at all
Nothing ;like an inflammatory transphobic headline to tell you that someone has an agenda. The Washington Times is an extremely right-wing "news" outlet. I'm not saying that trans athletes definitely didn't win any state titles, but I'm skeptical of this article to say the least. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-times/ I swear, the only time places like this ever "care" about girls' and women's sport is when they can use it to attack trans people.
In what way is the headline transphobic? How the fuck can you be skeptical when it's public data to look up? One of the states was mine. I watched the race they smoked the rest of the competition. No one is attacking trans people. There just needs to be a different way to be inclusive than the current.
Correct. Female and open divisions.
"I think I am a girl and if you don't agree with me that I am a girl, then you are filled with fear and hate" That's the rationale.
Hmm blatant transphobia
"All of the male-born competitors complied with their state transgender policies allowing them to enter the girls’ field based on self-declared gender identity." Seems like all these states have already decided how they want to handle this situation and the athletes complied. So what's the point of this "story"? There is so little information in this article it's basically only the headline. They don't tell you which schools the athletes were from, what events they competed in, etc. They interview one person in this piece that isn't affiliated with the states or schools and isn't even a track athlete - why is their opinion relevant? The only point of publishing this is to get people to read the headline and be upset. Its fine if you agree with the agenda that the washington times has, but you should at least be honest that they do have an agenda.
There are some topics that cannot even be discussed without one side being labeled as x-phobic or x-cist. Until that stops happening, society will continue to spin the tires on these issues.
Thank you for making me understand why this has been bugging me so much. By far the most I've watched the public talk about girls sports has been to discuss trans issues.
Thank you so much for pointing this out. Basic media literacy had going down the drain.
Rage bait title for emotionally driven topic during political season. The saddest thing about this post is there are a lot of young people on this sub who don't even understand the source or why this actually being written - someone wants you to know someone is coming for you and you should be scared! Which of course is complete horseshit. Transgender athletes are not 'going after women'. They're just trying to live their lives.
No they aren't going after woman, but they still have an extremely unfair physical advantages against the rest of the competition. I think it's extremely silly to jeopardize the integrity of the sport for the sake of inclusivity.
Lmfao this is what Americans get for trying to force transgenderism down our throats. There's a reason why the concept of MAN and WOMAN was established before this delusion.
Ok snowflake
Awww did my comment offend you? Lmao.
no
Weird. I’ve never once felt like transgenderism is being forced down my throat. Is it possible you’ve fallen victim to the rage bait and fear mongering propagated by various media outlets? I tend to ignore those and live my life and treat people the way I’d like to be treated — with courtesy and respect.
You must not go outside very much.
Step away from your social media echo chamber and turn off Fox. You’ll find that the sky is not actually falling.
The whole thing is asinine. Next thing you know we’ll be telling schizophrenics that the voices in their head are real.
[удалено]
I'm pretty far leaning left and even I think this is total horseshit. You can't just say you are a male and race females. Anyone saying otherwise has obviously never competed in a sport or don't have a daughter that competes in sport.
>You can't just say you are a male and race females. You’re right. You can’t. Because that’s against the rules.
Insulting people is always a great way to get people on your side.
I'm sorry but this article is terrible. Which schools? What percentage of transgender MTF athletes have gotten first compared to the number of MTF athletes in track? Data, not these opinion pieces, shows that after HRT, trans athletes perform at the same level as the sex they identify with. This is just sad to see this support for an article clearly made without statistics in mind. It's much easier to believe what you already believe.
Washington times is just a right wing rag at this point. It used to do actual journalism but that was 20 years ago. "All of the male-born competitors complied with their state transgender policies allowing them to enter the girls’ field based on self-declared gender identity." This line makes all this a nothing burger.
Exactly! It's a shame. And it's sad to see it being parroted and supported when they don't even make an attempt for proof within the article.
Without even basic stuff like the schools or what events or even just what level of competition this is basically equivalent of those facebook posts about kids needing litter boxes in school.
Thank you very much for providing me a little sanity break before others start to comment. You're very right about this being litter box levels.
It’s never been legit, it’s owned by a cult leader.
They used to at least try
I read that trans athletes who were born male, have taken over 1000 medal positions from female born athletes. Seems pretty crazy to me.
Sources are very nice, because people lie constantly. Especially about trans people. So I'd love to see where thats from. But regardless, raw numbers mean very little. What percentage of MTF athletes win first place consistently? Compare that to the percentage of cis female athletes who win first place consistently in competitions which allow MTF athletes. Unfortunately I'm not aware of a study that has been done about that. But a study I am aware of is the following: [https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586.abstract](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586.abstract) Which suggests that trans athletes may even have a DISADVANTAGE in sports. Here is a Forbes article covering it: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseyedarvin/2024/04/25/transgender-athletes-could-be-at-a-physical-disadvantage-new-research-shows/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseyedarvin/2024/04/25/transgender-athletes-could-be-at-a-physical-disadvantage-new-research-shows/) And if that isn't enough, I can speak from personal experience. I'm MTF, currently taking feminizing HRT. Feminizing HRT causes muscle deterioration, and patients are encouraged to work out to make sure their muscles do not atrophy. If you're worried about anything, you should be worried about MTF athletes being destroyed by cis men (I have a famous anecdote about this), or about FTM athletes, essentially on legal steroids, performing against cis women. I am begging you, and many others on this post, to take more care in the inflammatory views stated. These are real people and real people's lives. Decisions should not be made on what you BELIEVE to be correct, but what you KNOW to be correct, which backing if you are challenged.
I'm a trans guy and agree that trans men on T shouldn't be competing against women, but maybe don't call HRT 'essentially steroids' when the goal of HRT is to bring T levels into a normal male range. It's really difficult to get above cis male levels of T from HRT because excess testosterone will aromatase into estrogen, and you have to take aromatase inhibitors and such to achieve higher T levels. At which point I agree that they would be taking steroids and should be treated as such during competitions. I like to train powerlifting, and a few years ago was really interested in competing in some local powerlifting meets. But I found that because of the rhetoric that FTM HRT is like taking steroids, my only option to compete would be in the non-tested league, which is primarily made up by people on gear. My T levels are in the 600s and I don't use gear, so it's not like I had a reason to compete in the non-tested league and I actually would have been at a disadvantage in that league, while also not having had any kind of advantage competing in the tested league. A lot of sports already piss test for steroids (which isn't even that effective if people know how to time their cycles), I don't see why trans men shouldn't be able to submit recent blood work showing normal male T levels and then be able to compete in an untested league.
You're absolutely right, I'm sorry for the way I worded it! I was more focused on making a point than being accurate. I appreciate the explanation cause I didn't know.
No worries at all! I totally understand how it can be difficult to get a point across concisely without simplifying something else that is related to it. Have a good night 👍
So your sources are more credible than others when it comes to the advantages other medical experts claim MTF athletes have over biological females athletes? I read this on woman’s sports policy working group. I was just sharing what I read.
My sources are more credible because the first article includes no information on what the competition was, what the schools are, who any of the people are, and no linked study so I can't even know how they gathered data to reach this conclusion. You didn't provide a source, you quoted something you think you read from who knows where. You know, I read somewhere that even though there are 3 million trans athletes, only 2 have ever gotten in 3rd or greater! It doesn't mean anything if I have anything to back it up.
So MTF athletes are not taking podium spots from biological female athletes?
You didn't provide sources. /u/John_from_the_IRS did.
Just FYI, Canada's track and field lists their categories as Male and Female to avoid this. That's all you need to do. Change Men's to male and Women's to female. Problem solved.
I'm fine with someone choosing a lifestyle of their choice, more power to them. I am not OK with this, it's obviously wrong. I've never been ok with trans athletes winning female sports, makes me feel they are doing it solely for this benefit. Could be wrong, but c'mon.
Let's talk about the integrity of the trans athletes who have no problem beating the women by a country mile.
Not sure how common this really is, despite rightwing media hyping it up, but seems like there’s not an easy solution. Forcing girls and women to compete with biological men is unfair. Maybe a separate category where possible?
I’m as liberal and pro lgbtq as they come but I do have some hesitation about this. I know I know they lower their testosterone or whatever but still seems unfair.
Was this topic already discussed earlier this week, and the main thing that was pointed out was the states the transgender athletes won in were small track and field states? And then someone posted the open times and provided what rank the transgender athletes would have got if they ran open and almost none of the winners would have been top 10 in open?
Biological men have a bigger heart, lungs, stronger cardiovascular system, can take more pain, have a thicker stronger musculature, have stronger skeletonal muscle, more type 2 muscle fibers. Letting me suddenly put on a wig and saying Im a girl now and letting me compete against other females is like a guy from senior varsity football in high school go down and play with 7th and 8th graders. Its no wonder guys that were ranked 700th in the state are suddenly number one playing with other females. Just like the guy in the comment below me, why are we letting these sub one percenters completely change all the rules at the expense of real female athletes who should be completing among themselves? I mean, why is this even a thing?
It's just blatantly anti-female.
Biological men have an unfair advantage. This reminds me of that radio host who boxes women for concert tickets. These women knowingly want to box with him for these. They all got knocked on their behinds after trash talking.
A man took their title.
Incredibly biased language in the article. Extremely few examples being used to fearmonger in the lead-up to the 2024 elections. Transparent as hell.
God, the transphobia here is making me sick. I'm a transmasc high schooler. Distance runner. I hate racing against girls because it makes me remember how much i should be like them yet am not, and it makes me feel like a failure. I would give anything to be able to race against the boys regardless of how many places I would lose. I am not on HRT. If I went on HRT, they would not allow me to race at all, because it would "put me at an unfair advantage" against the girls, and I wouldn't be allowed to race against the boys because regardless of how I've been presenting myself for fucking YEARS, all they can see is that I'm biologically female. (our sprinters raced against a transfem girl at a meet. She got like 6th in a heat of 8, and it wasn't even the fast heat. being biologically male doesn't always give you massive advantages, especially against people who are very good at what they do. she was not someone who "chose to identify as the opposite gender" in order to win competitions - that is fearmongering and transphobia, not reality. she was a trans person who happened to be an athlete.) another note - when people say that they don't want women to be racing against "a man in a woman's clothing", that is not you being afraid of or wary of a trans woman. that is you being wary of a man. please know the difference. I understand the sentiment that you carry when it comes to trans individuals in sports, but please understand that your rhetoric is harmful to the trans community and the policies it causes can also be harmful to fully cis women.
>(our sprinters raced against a transfem girl at a meet. She got like 6th in a heat of 8, and it wasn't even the fast heat. being biologically male doesn't always give you massive advantages, especially against people who are very good at what they do. I think this kind of misframes the idea of what constitutes an unfair advantage. There is a wide range of performance amongst both males and females. Some females outperform some males. But if we graphed the performance of males in a histogram, we would expect something like a bell curve, and the same is true for the females, but the male bell curve is shifted towards higher performance compared to the female bell curve. The bell curves would overlap, indicating that some women outperform some men, but the bell curves aren't the same either. Imagine I measured the times of males in a race (let's say 100 m). I could graph their times to get a bell curve that represented this population. Then lets say I took the same group and had them shift the starting line forward 2 m, so now they only run 98 m. I would get a different set of times. If I compared the two sets of times, I would find that some of the people running 100 m had a lower time than some of the people running 98 m. I could compare the bell curves of the times at 100 m and at 98 m, and I would see that they were offset, but that they overlapped, in a way that isn't dissimilar to the male/female graphs. If I had a race where I let one contestant start 2 m in front of the others, it would be unfair. It wouldn't matter whether they won or not. I would expect that if I picked a person at random to start 2 m in front, that sometimes they would lose, and if I had a randomly selected person run 98 m against the best runners at 100 m, the random person would lose most of the time. But it would still be unfair. Males as a group have an unfair advantage against females. That doesn't mean every male can beat every female, just like sometimes a person running 100 m will beat a person running 98 m. But the advantage is still there even when they lose.
I understand your point, and what you are saying is true. However, the way you phrase is still harmful to the trans community.
My intention is to treat people with compassion. I am not sure which part of what I wrote you perceived as harmful.
That's not right, but its also a fine line to trapse. It's like we need a new catagory to put them in. So then there'd be Male, Female and Transgender.
There's no male division though, just open and female. Let them compete in open and be done with it.
Is this a US thing? Because in the UK it is very much Male and Female and then occasionally you'll have races/events that are graded based on performance(usually at lower standard comps and paced comps like the BMCs). I've definitely seen at least one female athlete get refused to be in a male race.
It’s not. It’s something some people want, and some are pretending it’s already a thing. It is how our big pro sports are, so some are assuming track is that way.
I was gonna say, I'm in the US and when I ran track and swam for my high school, events were broken up by distance and gender, i.e. "boys" and "girls". Never heard of an "open" class. Is this a California thing?
It’s not an anywhere thing in high school.
Thank you. That's what I thought.
We just call the open division “men’s” because in practice that’s what it is. But reality is anybody is allowed to compete in “men’s” sports.
there's not enough trans people for them to have their own category i say we just put them in the male category tbh
That’s what “open” is.
There is female and open (male). There is not enough of them for a third category and it wouldn't be worth it to host. We already have trouble in many female leagues, no way we can support a third in 99% of sports
You make a good point. I remember when A girl wanted to wrestle, but there were no other girls to wrestle with, so she wrestled with the boys. She ended up winning the state title in her weight class, but only because no boy would wrestle her, so they all defaulted and she just automatically advanced. I also remember when a girl wanted to play little league when we were kids (ended up going to high school with her and may have introduced her to her now husband). There were no other girls playing little league so she played with the boys. So I guess, "Open" it would be.
Open. Born female and open.
Who else would enter besides Transgender?
Male's and transgender either way would be in the open division. You'd continue to protect women's sports through title nine as currently written and you'd allow anyone else who'd like to compete to do so in the open division.
These kids are already at higher risk for self harm and suicide and turn to sports as a way to hopefully build self confidence. State associations decide what that looks like, not the kids. Leave the kids alone. Stop booing them. Stop attacking them online. Show some compassion and empathy. If you feel that trans girls in the girls division have an unfair advantage, take it up with the adults in charge at the state and national levels.
It’s actually insane given how relatively small the population of these people is.
This is the number one national scourge for conservatives. A handful of mtf athletes will get a competitive advantage and win state out of thousands of competitions, and get to hang out with their friends and feel more comfortable. Pretty much every governing body bans this for professional sports, so it seems like a non-issue to me. The sky is not falling
5 state titles out of how many available? Ok 50 states, let’s assume at least 4 divisions per state (some have 5 or 6), and 16 events? 3,200 state championships. So 0.1% of them were won by trans athletes.
That would be assuming that a trans athlete was in each race…how about going and saying that there are say 100 trans athletes and they won 98 titles…that is of course hypocritical…but that is the only way to count the impact of trans athletes…
Sure but I don’t think we know that answer. But my point is it’s not like somehow women are now missing every single title opportunity. And there’s a lot to talk about with this discussion, and we’re kind of ignoring the main question anyways, what really is important? Imho it’s making sure kids can be themselves.
Some of those kids’ selves should be girls’ state champion or medallist in their chosen event, but it isn’t because they had to compete against (biological) males. Trans people can dress and behave and ask to be referred to in accordance with whatever sex-based stereotypes they like, and absolutely should not face any persecution for doing so. But trans women are men and trans men are women, and in the very small range of activities in which that’s relevant they should be treated like all other members of their sex. Sport is one of those activities. It doesn’t matter if other states have better athletes in general or if trans girls didn’t win all the events. The girls entered a girls’ event, and couldn’t win because boys were also allowed to take part. It isn’t fair on those girls.
5 athletic events full of athletes that have trained for years for their opportunity to compete and had to race/jump/throw against someone with an unfair advantage. The winner doesn’t just affect that particular event. Some woman who trained well north of 1000hrs that year got bumped off the sectional, divisional and state teams. Then at the state meet every one of those women got bummed down a peg. Their teams missed out on points. Protect title 9.
Are you suggesting the trans athletes haven’t trained for years?
I’m suggesting a m to f trans athlete has genetic advantages. I’m perfectly fine with them competing in the open division.
Equal rights, equal fights. (Well in this case it’s, equal rights equal runs) but you get the point
I can’t believe no one has brought this up yet but the Washington Times was founded by and is still owned by the Unification Church, historically known at the Moonies, aka an incredible well documented and very large CULT. So, while I think a conversation with nuance about trans people in sport is totally possible, I’m not confident this is a great source to rely on 🤣