[[1991] Near Head On Collision Between VIA Rail & CP Freight in Smiths Falls, Canada](https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/16u8fcg/comment/k2jm9jl/):
- [rmweb.co.uk - VIA Rail LRC & CPR MLW Near Head on Collision](https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/71249-1991-via-rail-lrc-vs-cpr-mlw-near-head-on-collision/)
- > So, this started making the rounds on Canadian Lists today. A 1991 near head on collision between a VIA Rail LRC locomotive with three coaches and a CPR freight switching job which had ventured beyond where it had permission to be onto the mainline. Fortunately, disaster was averted by a quick thinking VIA Crew putting the brakes on emergency as soon as they sighted the freight, and the freight crew attempting to back away. As you can see in the video, despite almost being stopped, the VIA engineer bails at the last minute rather than ride through the collision, though its not a very graceful leap. What amazes me is the dumb luck that someone actually caught this on video. ~ sjgardiner
Having dad work for Amtrak for 32 years afforded me even closer up pics than crossings. Got to see all sorts of neat shit like when they brought over an ICE train from Europe in the 90's.
Don't, because I didn't get to see him for some major holidays and life events because the railroad never stops. I love him, but I don't know him very well because of it.
It's not like camcorders weren't a thing in 91. They'd become relatively common in the late 80s, and this is definitely low grade footage, even for 91.
Similarly, railfans were common then too. Perhaps IRL railfanning was much more common pre-internet.
They weren't like mobile phones. Heavy, clunky and expensive and not everyone could afford to have one, and the odds to being there to capture this is more unlikely.
Yeah but dads were obsessed with them and would take them everywhere 'just in case' something happened. They saved money for them by using cable cheater boxes from the flea market instead of paying for cable.
I mean, that's true, but there are far, far more people who always carry a cell phone around than who used to carry camcorders.
E.g. there were basically no videos of any of the tsunamis in history until the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami; suddenly there were [hundreds of them](https://www.wired.com/story/amateur-video-helping-understand-deadly-tsunamis/).
> Yeah but dads were obsessed with them and would take them everywhere 'just in case' something happened.
My father wasn't one of those dads but his father was and he was like a 8mm generation of recording the family.
>They saved money for them by using cable cheater boxes from the flea market instead of paying for cable.
I thought that was just a joke on the cartoons at the time.
Sure they were way larger than a modern phone. But on the other hand they were state of the art of miniaturization at the time, and compared to earlier equipment they were small, light weight and not that expensive.
If we rewind 10 years you would have a carry bag with a portable VHS recorder and a separate camera. Either of the VHS recorder and the camera would weigh more and be way larger than a 1991 camcorder.
Also I would say that the chance of someone filming something similar today might be higher, but the chance of someone filming it all the way from seeing the passenger train relatively far away to it almost impacting the freight train, without things like the sound of someone pulling the hand brake on a car, opening the car door, moving around resulting in shaky images and parts of a car in frame, isn't really much higher.
By the late 90s camcorders were really fairly compact – though not pocket sized by any means. But to my recollection the typical early 90s devices tended to be shoulder mounted and needed a briefcase-size case to lug it around. There were some more compact ones but they were less common (probably considerably more expensive).
Some call it dumb luck. Others call it rail fanning. But yes. Camcorders were still quite expensive in 1991. The fact too that the film was preserved through to a digital age as well. Really kinda neat how so much lined up to make this video available today.
Not unlike the treasure Father Patrick Mary Browne had with the Titanic.
You could find used portable VHS recorders and portable video cameras (intended for usage together, although you could mix different brands that all used the same 10 pin video camera connector) for not that much. But anyone who had a regular job with an acceptable income would probably had been able to afford a cheap new camcorder. At the time IIRC the price of a record-only VHS-C camcorder was comparable to 1-2 months of rent on an apartment. (And yes, record-only camcorders without an electronic view finder were a thing for a short while :) )
S-VHS and Hi8 was starting to appear at the time and you might had been able to find a used VHS or Video-8 camcorder when someone upgraded. Looks like the video in this thread is VHS or Video-8 rather than S-VHS or Hi-8. (S-VHS and Hi-8 both have almost broadcast quality picture for the monochrome part, while at least S-VHS has about as much color noise as regular VHS. In the 90's some movies were actually shot using S-VHS/Hi-8 camcorders. A very specific example of such movies are those made by and for lesbians, which in turn paved the way for similar films actually recorded/produced using professional grade equipment).
as for why the driver bailed, if you collide with another train head on at that speed (he didnt know if the train would stop) you are dead for sure. all he can do is put on full brakes and hope he stops. him being in the vehicle or not doesnt make a difference.
The LRC was very lightweight (literally the first letter of the name) and there were no collision posts or crumple zones like modern engines. You're crashing a tin can into a rock.
Pretty much, yes. Lightweight monocoque shell (made as small as possible for aerodynamic reasons) wrapped around an Alco 251 engine. Designed for 130+ mph but rarely went above 100 mph in service.
Afaik here in Sweden there is no specific recommendation as it's hit and miss which is the best. For sure you should exit the cab, but either bailing through the door or running backwards within the train both have their pros and cons. If the crash is so bad that the train derails there is the risk that a derailed vehicle runs over you if you bail out, but on the other hand you risk getting crushed if you run backwards inside the train.
Also it's easier to pass the engine compartments of some locos than on others. As an example the Swedish Rc locomotives (which the ALP44 and AEM7 locos are based on) have a "hallway" of sorts with openings to various equipment compartments and it would be really easy to run through that. On a diesel loco it might be way harder though as I think they usually don't have walls like that.
the corridor through the power car would be very cramped and difficult to get through in a hurry. It’s better to be off the train in a collision rather than in a slightly safer spot on it.
I think for many passenger engines, yes, but not so sure about the LRC. It was basically designed as a shell built around a diesel engine. (Yeah, pretty much all modern locos are that, but the LRC took it to an extreme.)
What's most astonishing is honestly not the video itself, but the fact that it occurred just 5 years after the Hinton crash, in which another VIA Rail train actually did collide with a CN freight that had traveled beyond its authorized track. In that case, 23 people were killed, including both train crews.
The circumstances differed in terms of how and why the freight trains exceeded their track authority, but in both cases the signaling system was never designed to physically prevent trains from making interfering moves.
It has taken far too long for North American railroads to correct that.
And in Canada's case we *still* haven't corrected that! No form of mainline train stop or protection, even if though CP and CN's locomotive fleets are equipped for PTC for US operation, it's not used North or the border.
Even more heinous considering automatic train stop is a century-old technology and was deployed by quite a few North American railroads even back then.
Speaking of people from elsewhere being absolutely shocked, when I learned about the Lac Megantic disaster I was shocked how lax the parking procedures were and afaik are. :O Like sure, mistakes were made and procedures weren't followed, but it's still wild to park a train on a slope without a switch that lead to a buffer, or a derailment device, as a protection from it starting rolling on it's own.
I'm still shocked about the auto rack that managed to roll down a hill and cross the international border uninterrupted. I would think that if there was only one place you'd expect to see a motorized derail it would be at a border crossing.
It took 11 hours for anybody to notice that it happened
https://www.niagara-gazette.com/news/local_news/runaway-train-car-crosses-whirlpool-bridge-into-canada-isnt-discovered-for-11-hours/article_5dbf2a32-074e-5c24-94aa-f44b8c7c1f45.html
When I first learnt about that, I found it baffling that in North America, there are no station limits. Over here in Germany that's a fundamental railroading principle (and most European continental railroads adopted it.)
You can't go beyond station limits with shunting movements over here. There are boards telling you where there's an absolute stop for shunting. And there have to be a semaphore or at least a board a few hundred metres down the line telling train drivers that they have to stop before advancing.
Also on lines that are signaled for multiple trains on the same line (either consecutive trains on a single track, or for that sake many trains in both directions on double track lines), the signals usually turn red if an unexpected vehicle appears further down the line, even if that vehicle isn't authorized to be there.
A year after the Hinton crash, there was a CN runaway that almost collided with a VIA train. Luckily, the VIA was running on time and passed through the area before the freight runaway did
You feel hard breaking wonder what is happening, look out for clues and see you are passing your engeneer. Instantly you know you are dead. Except this time😁
I'm curious to see the layout of track and signalling where a train could just wander onto the main line without encountering points being set against it to let the passenger train pass by.
Looks like old footage, everything used to be OCS, and very little regulation about locking switch points. So the only thing protecting the mainline here was likely a sign, the need for a clearance, and a man on the point.
In some cases some "accident investigation authority" might have conducted a report and that might be able in some archive. Not sure what the name of any such thing would be in Canada, if it even exists, but still. (In the US at least nowadays it seems like NIST is involved - they for example have investigated the Surfside tower collapse and whatnot during recent years. As an example from further away, in Sweden it's "Statens Haverikommision" that does these investigations). They might or might not opt to investigate though - if they have already investigated something similar and already given recommendations there isn't much more they can do.
It’s good the freight was shoving back already or maybe he just hit the throttle when the via came into sight but man was that a close one. I don’t blame the engineer for jumping though I’m not sure he’d have died at
that speed but I for sure know he’d have been hurt bad.
If it was signal controlled then it probably wouldn't happen. So it was probably OCS which means they basically got double booked on the same track, human error.
Exactly? Well a train almost hit another train but didn’t, is exactly what happened. How it happens is when two trains get really close to hitting each other but then don’t instead.
incident:Smith Falls, Ontario
You can go on the Transport Canada website and look it up however found another interesting incident at the same Crossing 3 years ago.
https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2021/r21h0087/r21h0087.html
First, those coaches still operate today.
Secondly the locomotive, while modern looking, was an underpowered piece of shit with a grossly outdated prime mover from the get go.
Power unit aside they looked far better than the utilitarian box of a ge 42. Whoever designed the latter knew nothing about curves and rounded edges . Ugly for a passenger locomotive
American signalling my word. Would never happen here in britain. Except the selby disaster but that was due to manually switched off safety systems due to a fault and the driver paying no attention for miles
The engineer did the right thing. He’s set the brakes in emergency, nothing more can be done. What would your sorry ass do? Just stay in the cab and possibly get injured or killed when you can avoid that by bailing?
It‘s kinda pointless to go down with the ship when your part of the ship is the only one which actually could go down, while the rest of the ship is fine.
Ah yes, because trying save himself from possible injury or death if his train couldn't slow down enough or the other didn't move, after doing everything in his power to prevent the accident, is a total bitch move. This ain't the E.S.&D.
[[1991] Near Head On Collision Between VIA Rail & CP Freight in Smiths Falls, Canada](https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/16u8fcg/comment/k2jm9jl/): - [rmweb.co.uk - VIA Rail LRC & CPR MLW Near Head on Collision](https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/71249-1991-via-rail-lrc-vs-cpr-mlw-near-head-on-collision/) - > So, this started making the rounds on Canadian Lists today. A 1991 near head on collision between a VIA Rail LRC locomotive with three coaches and a CPR freight switching job which had ventured beyond where it had permission to be onto the mainline. Fortunately, disaster was averted by a quick thinking VIA Crew putting the brakes on emergency as soon as they sighted the freight, and the freight crew attempting to back away. As you can see in the video, despite almost being stopped, the VIA engineer bails at the last minute rather than ride through the collision, though its not a very graceful leap. What amazes me is the dumb luck that someone actually caught this on video. ~ sjgardiner
Yeah, capturing something on video in 1991 was definitely not like pulling out your phone today! More like walking around with an IMax camera!
leave it to train enthusiasts
I love riding Amtrak and seeing almost every single level crossing have a person taking pictures.
Having dad work for Amtrak for 32 years afforded me even closer up pics than crossings. Got to see all sorts of neat shit like when they brought over an ICE train from Europe in the 90's.
I envy you
Don't, because I didn't get to see him for some major holidays and life events because the railroad never stops. I love him, but I don't know him very well because of it.
It's not like camcorders weren't a thing in 91. They'd become relatively common in the late 80s, and this is definitely low grade footage, even for 91. Similarly, railfans were common then too. Perhaps IRL railfanning was much more common pre-internet.
They weren't like mobile phones. Heavy, clunky and expensive and not everyone could afford to have one, and the odds to being there to capture this is more unlikely.
Yeah but dads were obsessed with them and would take them everywhere 'just in case' something happened. They saved money for them by using cable cheater boxes from the flea market instead of paying for cable.
I mean, that's true, but there are far, far more people who always carry a cell phone around than who used to carry camcorders. E.g. there were basically no videos of any of the tsunamis in history until the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami; suddenly there were [hundreds of them](https://www.wired.com/story/amateur-video-helping-understand-deadly-tsunamis/).
> Yeah but dads were obsessed with them and would take them everywhere 'just in case' something happened. My father wasn't one of those dads but his father was and he was like a 8mm generation of recording the family. >They saved money for them by using cable cheater boxes from the flea market instead of paying for cable. I thought that was just a joke on the cartoons at the time.
Sure they were way larger than a modern phone. But on the other hand they were state of the art of miniaturization at the time, and compared to earlier equipment they were small, light weight and not that expensive. If we rewind 10 years you would have a carry bag with a portable VHS recorder and a separate camera. Either of the VHS recorder and the camera would weigh more and be way larger than a 1991 camcorder. Also I would say that the chance of someone filming something similar today might be higher, but the chance of someone filming it all the way from seeing the passenger train relatively far away to it almost impacting the freight train, without things like the sound of someone pulling the hand brake on a car, opening the car door, moving around resulting in shaky images and parts of a car in frame, isn't really much higher.
By the late 90s camcorders were really fairly compact – though not pocket sized by any means. But to my recollection the typical early 90s devices tended to be shoulder mounted and needed a briefcase-size case to lug it around. There were some more compact ones but they were less common (probably considerably more expensive).
Some call it dumb luck. Others call it rail fanning. But yes. Camcorders were still quite expensive in 1991. The fact too that the film was preserved through to a digital age as well. Really kinda neat how so much lined up to make this video available today. Not unlike the treasure Father Patrick Mary Browne had with the Titanic.
You could find used portable VHS recorders and portable video cameras (intended for usage together, although you could mix different brands that all used the same 10 pin video camera connector) for not that much. But anyone who had a regular job with an acceptable income would probably had been able to afford a cheap new camcorder. At the time IIRC the price of a record-only VHS-C camcorder was comparable to 1-2 months of rent on an apartment. (And yes, record-only camcorders without an electronic view finder were a thing for a short while :) ) S-VHS and Hi8 was starting to appear at the time and you might had been able to find a used VHS or Video-8 camcorder when someone upgraded. Looks like the video in this thread is VHS or Video-8 rather than S-VHS or Hi-8. (S-VHS and Hi-8 both have almost broadcast quality picture for the monochrome part, while at least S-VHS has about as much color noise as regular VHS. In the 90's some movies were actually shot using S-VHS/Hi-8 camcorders. A very specific example of such movies are those made by and for lesbians, which in turn paved the way for similar films actually recorded/produced using professional grade equipment).
WDYM "film"? This was quite clearly captured on video tape.
Some people use tape and film interchangeably, even if they know the difference. That is how language evolves though.
Wait until you find out that the save icon is still a floppy disc
Yeah in 1991 where not everyone has a smartphone on video all the time
Yeah catching that in 1991 with a camera is a freak act.
as for why the driver bailed, if you collide with another train head on at that speed (he didnt know if the train would stop) you are dead for sure. all he can do is put on full brakes and hope he stops. him being in the vehicle or not doesnt make a difference.
Isn't procedure to his the OH SHIT button and get out of there? Not like he can make it swerve out of the way.
Bailing like that is usually not a great idea because the rail cars can fall on top of you in a derailment
The LRC was very lightweight (literally the first letter of the name) and there were no collision posts or crumple zones like modern engines. You're crashing a tin can into a rock.
Ah, that’s right it’s the Canadian HST
Pretty much, yes. Lightweight monocoque shell (made as small as possible for aerodynamic reasons) wrapped around an Alco 251 engine. Designed for 130+ mph but rarely went above 100 mph in service.
Personally I'd pick " Smaller ossibility of gruesome death" over "Certain death if that bugger doesn't move"
Afaik here in Sweden there is no specific recommendation as it's hit and miss which is the best. For sure you should exit the cab, but either bailing through the door or running backwards within the train both have their pros and cons. If the crash is so bad that the train derails there is the risk that a derailed vehicle runs over you if you bail out, but on the other hand you risk getting crushed if you run backwards inside the train. Also it's easier to pass the engine compartments of some locos than on others. As an example the Swedish Rc locomotives (which the ALP44 and AEM7 locos are based on) have a "hallway" of sorts with openings to various equipment compartments and it would be really easy to run through that. On a diesel loco it might be way harder though as I think they usually don't have walls like that.
yeah, its a hard choice of what to do, in a modern electric locomotive running back through the loco is usually easy, as there is a central hallway.
You can run through the aisle
the corridor through the power car would be very cramped and difficult to get through in a hurry. It’s better to be off the train in a collision rather than in a slightly safer spot on it.
Could, or could not. Most passenger trains have a easy access
I think for many passenger engines, yes, but not so sure about the LRC. It was basically designed as a shell built around a diesel engine. (Yeah, pretty much all modern locos are that, but the LRC took it to an extreme.)
What's most astonishing is honestly not the video itself, but the fact that it occurred just 5 years after the Hinton crash, in which another VIA Rail train actually did collide with a CN freight that had traveled beyond its authorized track. In that case, 23 people were killed, including both train crews. The circumstances differed in terms of how and why the freight trains exceeded their track authority, but in both cases the signaling system was never designed to physically prevent trains from making interfering moves. It has taken far too long for North American railroads to correct that.
And in Canada's case we *still* haven't corrected that! No form of mainline train stop or protection, even if though CP and CN's locomotive fleets are equipped for PTC for US operation, it's not used North or the border.
Even more heinous considering automatic train stop is a century-old technology and was deployed by quite a few North American railroads even back then.
It truly is insanity, and every time I mention it, folks from elsewhere are absolutely shocked. Also, are you Christoph of Christoph et al. Fame?
I can claim no relation to any other Christophs in the world except myself.
Speaking of people from elsewhere being absolutely shocked, when I learned about the Lac Megantic disaster I was shocked how lax the parking procedures were and afaik are. :O Like sure, mistakes were made and procedures weren't followed, but it's still wild to park a train on a slope without a switch that lead to a buffer, or a derailment device, as a protection from it starting rolling on it's own.
I'm still shocked about the auto rack that managed to roll down a hill and cross the international border uninterrupted. I would think that if there was only one place you'd expect to see a motorized derail it would be at a border crossing. It took 11 hours for anybody to notice that it happened https://www.niagara-gazette.com/news/local_news/runaway-train-car-crosses-whirlpool-bridge-into-canada-isnt-discovered-for-11-hours/article_5dbf2a32-074e-5c24-94aa-f44b8c7c1f45.html
Trap points? Catch points? We've never heard of those here, but they sound like a maintenance liability so that's a no-go!
When I first learnt about that, I found it baffling that in North America, there are no station limits. Over here in Germany that's a fundamental railroading principle (and most European continental railroads adopted it.) You can't go beyond station limits with shunting movements over here. There are boards telling you where there's an absolute stop for shunting. And there have to be a semaphore or at least a board a few hundred metres down the line telling train drivers that they have to stop before advancing.
Also on lines that are signaled for multiple trains on the same line (either consecutive trains on a single track, or for that sake many trains in both directions on double track lines), the signals usually turn red if an unexpected vehicle appears further down the line, even if that vehicle isn't authorized to be there.
A year after the Hinton crash, there was a CN runaway that almost collided with a VIA train. Luckily, the VIA was running on time and passed through the area before the freight runaway did
You feel hard breaking wonder what is happening, look out for clues and see you are passing your engeneer. Instantly you know you are dead. Except this time😁
Old story, a little research will give you the answer. Freight overran the limits in the yard it was working without notifying anyone.
I'm curious to see the layout of track and signalling where a train could just wander onto the main line without encountering points being set against it to let the passenger train pass by.
Looks like old footage, everything used to be OCS, and very little regulation about locking switch points. So the only thing protecting the mainline here was likely a sign, the need for a clearance, and a man on the point.
It’s approaching the points from the backside. It’ll force the points when it goes through. Probably damage them, but it will go through.
Did you ever find the track layout?
How would one go about researching an event like this? I'm not sure what search terms to use.
In some cases some "accident investigation authority" might have conducted a report and that might be able in some archive. Not sure what the name of any such thing would be in Canada, if it even exists, but still. (In the US at least nowadays it seems like NIST is involved - they for example have investigated the Surfside tower collapse and whatnot during recent years. As an example from further away, in Sweden it's "Statens Haverikommision" that does these investigations). They might or might not opt to investigate though - if they have already investigated something similar and already given recommendations there isn't much more they can do.
Another train on a route? Lost carriage?
It’s good the freight was shoving back already or maybe he just hit the throttle when the via came into sight but man was that a close one. I don’t blame the engineer for jumping though I’m not sure he’d have died at that speed but I for sure know he’d have been hurt bad.
He slipped. Otherwise, he would have jumped off clean
Thats what happens when you breach safeworking rules
Good job on both engineers
Inappropriate shunting averted. Good work to both drivers.
If it was signal controlled then it probably wouldn't happen. So it was probably OCS which means they basically got double booked on the same track, human error.
Exactly? Well a train almost hit another train but didn’t, is exactly what happened. How it happens is when two trains get really close to hitting each other but then don’t instead.
This is what happens when I join public Run8 (Train simulator) servers after I've had a few too many juice boxes and start throwing switches.
[engineer left the chat]
Nice cab bail...
Yeah. Looked quite skillful. He leaves it to the last minute.
CP train popped limits.
This is a local newspapers reporting on it: https://ngtimes.ca/33-years-later-the-almost-smiths-falls-train-collision-of-1991/
incident:Smith Falls, Ontario You can go on the Transport Canada website and look it up however found another interesting incident at the same Crossing 3 years ago. https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2021/r21h0087/r21h0087.html
Not the same crossing. Crossing in the video is highway 15.
From what I can see in the video, the incident happened in Canada....🤔
Obligatory: /r/WhyWereTheyFilming
CP Rail: OOOOOPSS SORRY MY BAD!!!! VIA: GET OF THE ROAD YOU LUNATIC!! CP Rail: Its a RAILROAD i literally CAN'T GET OFF!
Hear me out; equip every traincar with rocket boosters that slow forward momentum to prevent a crash.
How does that VIA train look more modern than those running right now? Ignoring the brand new Siemens sets.
First, those coaches still operate today. Secondly the locomotive, while modern looking, was an underpowered piece of shit with a grossly outdated prime mover from the get go.
Power unit aside they looked far better than the utilitarian box of a ge 42. Whoever designed the latter knew nothing about curves and rounded edges . Ugly for a passenger locomotive
So the train on the left almost hit the train on the right, but didn’t, and a guy jumped out.
Here you see one of the face-offs of 'TRAIN WARS' where trains fight for territorial takeover of Tracks.
So... You know that one episode of thomas?
SPAD
Mis communication
He thinks the train gonna hit the other train in front of him, he now jumped out
Its pretty common here in Czechia ...
This should be crossposted to r/maybemaybemaybe
Casey Jones he ain't
i guess it should be some experiment or something
I could never jump from a train that's moving especially the luck I keep having
American signalling my word. Would never happen here in britain. Except the selby disaster but that was due to manually switched off safety systems due to a fault and the driver paying no attention for miles
Bikers fault
[удалено]
The engineer did the right thing. He’s set the brakes in emergency, nothing more can be done. What would your sorry ass do? Just stay in the cab and possibly get injured or killed when you can avoid that by bailing?
I just had this idea of the captain going down with his ship, but times have changed. I know I would have bailed my sorry ass.
It‘s kinda pointless to go down with the ship when your part of the ship is the only one which actually could go down, while the rest of the ship is fine.
I hope that engineer was called a bitch for the rest of his life after jumping out of the train like that.
Ah yes, because trying save himself from possible injury or death if his train couldn't slow down enough or the other didn't move, after doing everything in his power to prevent the accident, is a total bitch move. This ain't the E.S.&D.