Y’all are way too invested in the lore. But this is a band that makes music. Incredible music. The lore is fantastic but I’ve seen people lose sight of what it represents and also kinda ignore the music. The lore is just a bonus. I’m really happy with Clancy, it’s a fantastic album. Wouldn’t change a thing about it.
I think there’s something to be said about “fandom” here too… the moment something is exhausting and not fun… you’re not enjoying it anymore and should probably step away as the OP is doing. At least for a bit. It’s not something to like anymore but a liability and I think that’s a bit silly to commit to without any incentive.
But that's the risk that any artist takes when they decide to add lore to there appeal. Lore is meant to spark obsession. Think lord of the rings, Harry potter etc. Of course these worlds are much bigger than 21 pilots lore, but the very point of lore is to lure fans into a narrative
Invalid comparison to cinematic universes aside, I understand your point. It is a risk they ran when they introduced the lore. But isn’t it up to us as the listeners to remember where and who the lore is coming from?
I agree and disagree. Mostly I disagree that going hog wild on lore is a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. (EDIT: I appreciate y’all filling in the knowledge gaps for those who got confused by that expression. I think “throw the baby out with the bath water” is both a cultural and a generational thing 😆)
The music is the meat, and the lore is the toppings; enjoy the meat, but have as many **or as few** of the toppings as you want.
When I listen to the music, I **sometimes** think about the lore. I also think about
- my mom (RIP) and her advice to scream at God, because “He’s a big boy! He can take it!”
- drowning in the logistics of life, with just enough strength for “one more try.” And another “one more try” on another day. And another…
- memories of toying with… unsafe plans
- times I was blessed to (essentially) say to others “I’m fairly local” and help them navigate
- the numerous things in my life that can be summed up in two words: Sahlo Folina
Bath water is dirty after a kid bathes and you need to throw it out. It would be stupid to say that since the bath water is dirty, we need to get rid of the baby along with it. It just means don’t throw out everything because some of it is bad.
If you stop listening to this album because you don’t like how the story/lore is going, you’re missing out on just the music itself and how great it is.
u/Routine-Theme5698 I’m glad!
Also, oh dang, I didn’t think that some people hadn’t heard that expression before. Thanks u/ilovesunsets93 for filling in the knowledge gaps there 😁
It comes from way back when. Before running water was a thing and everyone was working in the Fields. Generally the father of the house would bathe first, then the mother, then the children by age.
So by the time you got to the baby there's a good chance you couldnt even see the baby in the bathwater because it was so dirty.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
This!!!
When the lore first was announced I honestly hated it and thought Tyler was writing a screenplay. Maybe that’s why I listen to the music and see it for what it really is and not just as to how it relates to the lore. The lore *is* a story made up based on Tyler’s own life and struggles. If that hasn’t become glaringly obvious to people I’m going to tell them now. If you understand anything about depression, anxiety, or having those kinds of thoughts, you’ll understand. For a lot of us, that doesn’t ever completely go away. If they want an actual conclusion of the lore, spoilers, it will probably be some version of Tyler basically portraying that he will struggle for the rest of his life, but is in a better place because he’s trying to find joy in the little things in life, hence Oldies Station. Also, that he found the courage to lean on friends more when he’s struggling, hence ATROFD. Celebrities aren’t puppets that dance on a string for us, they’re *humans*. When I listened to the album the only thing I thought is, man is he okay?
Though it’s perfectly acceptable to dig into and care about the lore - I enjoy it now as well, I think it’s safe to say the lore has created some entitlement in people as well, when just below the surface, the real story and its conclusion has kind of been there all along.
Yeah, like, I was even thinking “the music is like Zuko (Avatar) screaming to the skies for someone to strike him with lightning. The lore is an analogy told over a series of therapy sessions.”
Ive been a fan since Vessel days and I’ve not watched a single tøp music video and I know every word and key change to their discography. It’s always just been about the music for me. I do plan on watching them all before seeing them in August though, because I’m not gonna lie, I’m kinda tired of feeling left out lol.
I'm with you on that
I also don't really enjoy them trying to add lore into older albums
For me there is a very distinct line (idk what it is or why I feel it but) between vessel + Blurryface // Trench + SAI + Clancy
You said it yourself it's all about the music. The lore is something sprinkled in to make things that bit more... Interesting. For those who want to dig deeper and think
At the end of the day, they're musicians. I'm sure they've felt tied down by the lore as well
Finally found someone similar to me! I didn't really realise there was lore for a while and when I did, I was not interested to look into it. I love their songs and music all the same.
Same here! I have to say it's been itching me to kinda learn or slightly look into it. It seems they are super invested in this lore but at this point is it even worth my mind going backwards to try and understand it all? I think it's cool they've done it but same. I just enjoy their music and have loads of 21P tats but just don't know the lore.
There’s a lot of us! I think most of us are people who became fans outside the Trench era. It seems to me most people who became fans during the Trench era are obsessed with the lore, whereas most people who became fans outside the Trench era are like “oh, interesting… anyway”
In my case, I was a fan before the Trench era (Vessel) and was eagerly waiting for Trench just because I wanted new music from them after what felt like such a long hiatus after Blurryface. I was vaguely aware of the lore at the time, but didn’t care enough to dig into details… Especially since it looked like so much work! Ppl were solving all these puzzles and looking for clues and, quite frankly, I didn’t find the story compelling enough to be worth doing all that work.
It must be! I have been a fan since 2012 in the Vessel era as well.
TOP are my favourite band and would listen to them on repeat, I even have a tattoo. I think for me in 2018, i was discovering new music and I didn't vibe with the Trench singles that much before the album came out so I wasn't jumping to listen to it (don't hate me everyone lol). Once I listened to it, I loved the music but just did not have a clue about any lore until joining the reddit a few years later once SAI came out. I was so far behind there was no point in catching up by then similar to you.
I am also a fan since Vessel. Trench was so lore heavy they kinda lost me for a bit there. It has grown on me over the years and thankfully SAI brought me back.
Same here! It pains me when I see newer fans preach about the lore being the most important part of loving this band. I've loved them since Vessel and all I care about is that they are relatable and that the music is pleasing to the ear.
I know bits and pieces of the lore, enough to appreciate it's complexity even when I don't get all of it. However, I will always put their music at #1. I enjoy it more when I don't have to think about anything but what the music is trying to convey
Honestly people overhyped the "definitive ending" thing imo. Some press releases mentioned Clancy being the end, but the band themselves (especially Tyler) only ever said that the story *needs* an ending and Clancy teases what's to come
Paladin Strait definitely felt like that teaser and then some so I was pleasantly surprised
Man seriously. I know people who’ve gone off about how Tyler lied about the end, when the only interview I can find is him very carefully dancing around not actually saying it is. I feel like people drew expectations from that and are disappointed from their own assumptions.
I agree on just enjoying the music, but about the lore... we do it to ourselves. To wish they never did it because you got into it enough to exhaust yourself is crazy.
It’s not crazy. It started off interesting and fun and it ended up exhausting for the op. Like starting to go for 100% in a video game and realizing it’s no fun after a certain point. It affected op’s feelings about it all and that isn’t crazy. I think a more suitable approach would be to wish op never got into it but oh well. Tyler kinda wishes he never did Saturday so…
I agree with one comment that regarding the lore, you did it to yourself. They are musicians first, not film makers. The lore is an addition, not the norm. Exhausting yourself from this is insane imo
I think this era has been all about expectations. This fanbase sets a lot of expectations and when those expectations aren't met they get disappointed. Expectation leads to disappointment.
To be fair, I’ve been a fan since 2013 and I didn’t get super into the lore until this year. It was exhausting for me to keep up with everyone in 2018 finding clues that eventually I just gave up. I still went to their show in 2018 and 2022 and they were fantastic without knowing much of the lore at all.
i thought that Paladin wasn't the end? Tyler posted that one tweet in response to someone who asked if the conclusion would be in the shows and he said that the shows would be the lead up to the final battle. Seems like the ending would be after the tour is over. I guess I don't see why that's a bad thing? there was such a long gap between trench and clancy it's only a year. not to diminish your feelings at all i guess i'm just saying don't feel too down about it and don't give up!
The way I see it, whatever we get in June 2025 will be an extension of the album and tour. It’s one big era, so to speak, and this is just the beginning of the end. I’m excited for a year of whatever they have in store for us. And even MORE excited about the concert than I was when I bought the tickets on release day!
The way I see it, the lore is just another layer to the music, it's not the main essence of it, it's just another dimension of it to add some meaning to the story (the lore of Clancy is all about him fighting back against DEMA, showing the decision to fight back against mental health struggles "cause sometimes to stay alive you gotta kill your mind".
If you want to just enjoy the music, that's fine, the music is amazing. It you want a deeper story about struggling with mental health because it might enhance the emotions behind the music, then you can listen to and keep track of the lore. If you find this ARG type thing and the mystery fun, then you can get fully involved in mapping out and discovering all the lore.
The way I see it it's similar to video games, some people just want to play the game and will go through the whole story just playing, others will read the lore related stuff as they go along because it helps them enjoy the game and world building more, then some with dive head first into all the lore and search the entire world map for every bit of lore because they find it fun.
In the end, do what you want, as long as you're enjoying it, that's fine.
Just a reminder that tøp are a music band and not a book or a movie franchise. The lore is secondary and quite frankly the fanbase makes it very annoying since at every squint of an eye from Tyler people come out with the craziest theories
Lol, is that serious to you? 'I’m moving on guys, it’s too much for me to handle.' 'I kinda wish they never did any of this lore because I’m not happy with it 😭.' The problem isn’t the lore; your problem is your obsession with it. I love the lore, but at the same time, I don’t spend every waking minute searching for clues and creating theories, only to be let down when my wacky theories don’t happen.
I’m new to the fandom and, honestly, the lore is what made me even give them a chance. I never hated their music, but nothing really stood out to me. When I found out there was lore attached, however, I got a lot more interested and actually started to listen to their music. I fell in love with the lyrics. Personally, I just wait for other people to figure out the little details.
I’m very excited to see their next projects that won’t be tied down to the logistics of the lore. I’m a big fan of the lore but Tyler obviously vocalized his frustrations with it.
Life would be easier for some of y'all if you gave lore less importance and focus on the music from the beginning. The lore is not saying anything that's not in the music already. Their songs and lore are about the same topic. Just enjoy the music. The rest is just an extra.
The lore is great if that is what you want to add to your listening experience. Personally I love thematic albums like Dark Side of the Moon, Days of Future Passed, and The Wall, so the lore for me is just *chef’s kiss*. It helps me just appreciate the music more.
If you just listen to the music because it’s great music, that’s awesome too! I’m not here to yuck someone else’s yum! People enjoy aural experiences differently. And that’s when you really see diversity in favorite songs from the album. As a tism girlypop, I really connect deeply with music. So a song like Paladin just hits me right in the pocket, whereas ATROFD is just good.
Enjoy the sounds the way you want to. Because in the end it’s only about your personal experience with the tracks. Not someone else’s.
He said “put a bow on it” not end it.
Tomorrow if nothing comes everybody is yelling at Tyler “hope you’re dead cause how could you sleep at a time like this.” Lol
My perspective is that we never saw the “beginning” of the story. You werent there to see clancy born. You weren’t there to see the rise of nico and the bishops. You weren’t there when the bishops hijacked the religion (probably of the torchbearers). You weren’t there when the banditos formed. The story started with everything in place, things were going, because Tyler was an adult when this story began to be told and also because this is how we tell stories more often than not. The end of any story is almost never THE end. Any fairy tale when the prince marries the princess and they live happily ever after… and then you never see the princess getting tired of the Prince that never folds his own laundry or covers his mouth when he sneezes.
You want a happily ever after? An epic marvel comics final battle?
Just dont believe the hype
I just don’t think thats what would come from tøp. They are better than that. The question is one worth asking with any story. Take the bible: when the flood comes and Noah saves the day and all the bad people are dead. The end. Or is it? Maybe not. Maybe something more happens next. Moses confronts Pharaoh. Pharaoh says no. The end. Or nah, Moses does more miracles and eventually they cross the read sea and Pharaoh and his men drown in the waters behind them. The end. Or is it? Nah there is more. They wander in the desert (of my mind…, addict with a pen anyone?) for 40 years and never get to see the promised land. The end. Or is it? Does that sound like the end to you? For a specific story or segment any one of those pieces could have been the end. Tyler’s story is still going and I am sure he has good days and bad days like the rest of us. The key is we get to see Clancy confidently looking his demons in the eys, all the glowing eyes, and the fear in his periphery is starting to shrink instead of grow and he is a little less concerned when there is nothing in the tank, when there is no obvious escape, when his car radio or his “air catcher” get stolen because now he doesn’t even know if he wants it back because he doesn’t believe in talking just to breathe and he wont just say what you want to hear that nico is dead and there is nothing to fear.
He has gotten used to nico and relative pain and has given us all an example of how to write our fears to keep moving forward. Thanks to Tyler and Clancy I have begun to understand why God died. That is a complete enough story for me.
I wont be sad if I am wrong and there is more, because of course there is more there is tomorrow but it’s the end of today and thats enough for me.
I think he is ready to morph and we can all release him from the present we’re obsessin’ all these questions just take this moment to live in the future.
I have been here from the beginning and this is their best album imo
This is why we should just sit back and relax. We got people literally going crazy over music. I get this band is special and different but it’s not this deep. We don’t need people to connect 361927 different points to maybe get an answer. Juts be patient and we’ll get our answers
When I got into Twenty One Pilots the lore was exciting. The deep lyrics with some of it being layers and layers got me excited and reading theories here on reddit was fulfilling. I had my own meaning to these songs based on my experiences and faith. But, it slowly got tiring. Arguing, bickering, all of the theories before Trench then after SAI made me completely uninterested in lore. It´s nice and unique, but some take it way too seriously.
I loved SAI album, and era. The way they performed with live band was amazing and I felt great moving forward. Yes, lyrics were deep and did not correspond with happy feeling of these songs but people hating the album because "Tyler is under control of DEMA" is nonsense. SAI has a special place in my heart. Especially Live Experience with band playing.
Clancy is great album. Full stop. I think Tyler should have chosen different songs for singles. Overcompensate was great but didn´t correspond with the sound of the album. SImilarly to Catalyst of Linkin Park´s A Thousand Suns. It´s a little bit off. Every song is kind of different on this album, but songs like Routines in the Night or Oldies Station could maybe get a spot on radio playlists. The lore and overhyped "this ends it all" was so tiring I get you man.
Enjoy music, many people have no idea about this lore and better for them. Still some people in here take things way too far and from being theories it quickly become delusion, nonsense or straight up conspiracy theory.
I'll be honest, it's hilarious seeing how cooked fans are getting, but at the end of the day, I a) don't care about the lore compared to the actual music and b) enjoyed Clancy enough that I wouldn't mind if it's the last TOP album (ever or for the next while)
I agree with you. When I saw overcompensate I was hyped. But lore-wise I was overall disappointed by this album. This said, I still enjoy most of its songs
Hope you don't get downvoted into oblivion because I agree to an extent. I LOVE what they've been doing with the story and the music and everything. But if they would have just been transparent about what is actually happening and if it's the end/when we're getting the end and if we should be expecting more songs or not, it would have been even more enjoyable.
I just feel bad for all the new people who are like “what’s up with that? Hm? Let me just do a quick YouTube search…”
and then they have to watch 27 hours of lore videos to catch all the way up from a decades worth of story. that barrier halts the progress of those who got clued in by a long term fan who has been in the shits for a while now. I’ve heard it from friends and family “there’s too much to get into it would take too long to catch up and blah blah blah blah blah”
I’m sure some of you reading this have had a similar experience. Maybe not.
But I guess for me, since I’ve been here along for the ride since the beginning? I’ve got to see the end to feel complete. Plus the music slaps, so.
People over exaggerate how much lore there is, especially in retrospect. There's a continent called Trench, inside there's a city called DEMA, controlled by 9 bishops that impose the religion of Vialism that praises suicide (and then control the dead bodies via seizing). The main bishop is Nico or Blurryface.
The main character is called Clancy. His friend is the torchbearer.
For you to "understand" the music, that's all.
It might be lore to you, but to him this is his life. His story. Yeah it’s exhausting, imagine how exhausted the band is, but you’re making it about yourself. This is Tyler’s way of expressing himself, and it always has been. It’s not for people to like or dislike. It’s to cope, and to inspire. Music holds no meaning, and no purpose without the challenges we face.
There is always a solution. It’s been here all this time.
Sahlo folina he says;
To enable your creativity in coping with issues.
Keep your head up high and your friends close.
This is Tyler’s entire point of making music
I actually think the ending of PS is kinda beautiful and poetic. Nico touches Clancy which usually means he gets taken. This time he doesn’t get taken. Instead he opens his eyes and looks Nico in the eyes. I think it symbolizes how we never truly win over our demons. Things like anxiety, depression, and other mental illnesses never really go away; you don’t “beat” them, you just learn to live with them. I think Clancy looking at Nico is him acknowledging this simple truth. He can’t win, he can only acknowledge his demons as another part of himself, just like we all have to do if we want to find happiness and contentment. We see them for what they are, but we choose not to give them power over us anymore. We just have to keep moving forward, striving every single day to be better.
Idk, I could be completely off base, but I liked the ending. I don’t see it as a cliffhanger at all. That said, the music slaps, lore or not.
Wow. I can't imagine feeling this amount of discontent. I appreciate the music the most, but the lore adds to it. Sure, they could've done without it, but it just goes to show how passionate, creative, and talented these guys are. And I, for one, consider it a privilege to be allowed into the inner-workings and creative mind of theirs. They are one of the most ingenious artists of this generation, and I am grateful that they give their fans more meaningful lyrics than "work work work work work work." 'Nuff said.
Idk man I like how their music sounds in general. I know there’s lore, don’t understand a bit of it, frankly I don’t care to, I just love their songs and messages.
I’m such a big twenty one pilots fan. I know about the lore, I understand it, I think it’s super cool and fun. But I enjoy it in the background of all the incredible music. Clancy is a fantastic album, and so is Scaled and Icy, there are some amazing compositions on both albums. On every album they’ve written. Tyler Joseph understand music in a way I don’t feel with a lot of other modern artists, especially when it comes to performing live. This is why I love the band. I could give up on Dema and all that, but I’ll never give up this music because it’s utterly fantastic. Well done, thought out, and mastered. Mixed and transitioned and structured. All the words. I never started taking the lore that seriously, and I never got tired of the music. Remember, what drives this story at its heart are the songs.
Tyler has made it clear from the jump that the final battle happens after this album. I don’t know why yall are disappointed in, and so hung up on, the cliffhanger Clancy ends on.
Y'all do realize the fans created the lore and not Tyler or the band right. Yes the band went with it for the fans but the "lore" was started by the fan base
Bro what’s wrong with the lore. It’s never been about actual physical videos it been about the deep psychological means behind what we’re seeing and hearing. He’s not leaving us on a cliffhanger he’s filling us in on how he felt along the way
I love their music. Absolutely love it. But the lore man.. it really has gotten to that point where it feels exhausting to me to. I was excited for it to end so it can just be about the music from now on.
Gotta agree with you and disagree with the folks who said something like "you did this to yourself".
It was so fun solving those puzzles and following the clues during Trench and SAI, that it's only normal to be hyped for Clancy's lore, too. Were things over-hyped? Perhaps. But the band literally encouraged us to dive deep into this lore.
They chose Overcompensate as their very first music video and song to be released and set expectations that didn't align with the rest of the album (the album is incredible tho, don't get me wrong).
They openly spoke about laying out the story for everyone to understand, how excited they were to bring this to an end and would withhold the Paladin Strait video until people downloaded some limited digital background material, assembled all pictures in there in the right order, found a hidden website and a hidden code for it.
Not to mention the exhibit they did and that you would miss out on their live shows if you weren't informed enough to answer the questions for the small live shows they did.
To conclude this essay: I am exhausted, too. I'll be still checking in on lore updates, but will lean back for the biggest part and enjoy the music.
I've been waiting for a place to unload this but I really just do not vibe with this album, and the cliffhanger ending plus the garbage ticket prices kind of killed my interest in it.
I hear you. When they did the I Am Clancy video, the cover, then overcompensate came out I thought this would be a very different album. It was set up to be similar to Trench in terms of lore and the vibe I got was a vibe of victory but that’s not what we got at all. Plus they promoted it as a very lore heavy song and we only got 3 which doesn’t make sense per the promotion. So I’m with you.
sorry but I don't agree with you: it's the end of the story, so it's normal that it must have a lot of lore in it, also because the past albums never had too much direct lore (it was always a "behind the scene"). You can't close a story without being direct with it, and I'm sure Tyler want all of us to really understand what's going on, but also, leaving us space so the story can have some different meaning for all of us, the same goes with all the songs that he and Josh and al the group create!
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You never seen a movie end on a cliffhanger? Sometimes it's best not to have a sappy cheesy ending but leave it to the imagination of the viewer/listener. Clancy saved the banditos and citizens of dema, what happens with him specifically isn't that important. We knew from Nico and the numbers 'we'll win but not everyone will get out" the lore showed that happen. In reality it would piss off people no matter what happens past what we've seen. So probably the best way to end it is knowing he accomplished what he set out to do and leave it at that
I've loved them since vessel as well It's also always been about the music for me it actually helped me out through so much growing up and the lore I think is just a cool fun bonus for me.
the only thing I can tell in my years of experience in life, is don't take things so seriously, that goes for Lore, Jokes and Insults... I listen to many conceptual bands, they wear masks or makeup and create weird stories, but at the end if the songs are bad, why we should care about the lore?.
P.s: I love the new album, I feel like is very personal for Tyler
Consider the lore as a bonus, as you mentioned, it's about the music and how it resonates with you. Clancy's songs address internal struggles and overcoming daily thoughts and problems, which resonates with many people.
While the lore makes this band so unique, they’re still musicians first. And I think the fact that you can enjoy this without knowing/focusing on the lore just as much as any die-hard fan shows they’re doing an excellent job.
Also, I don’t think this (the Paladin Strait) was the END end. I think there will be something more—for now just enjoy the music :)
I kind of agree. I’m not as annoyed by the lore but I certainly don’t care about it. I enjoy the songs for what they are. I love Clancy because it is an incredible album with great songs and moving lyrics. It’s definitely my 2nd favorite TOP album now, behind Vessel. Lyrically, it moves me the same way Vessel does. But I agree I find the lore a bit exhausting and was never interested in figuring what it all was about. But I know others enjoy it, and that’s fine. I like Clancy more than Trench because Trench was too lore heavy for my taste. Musically it was good but lyrically, I don’t care about Nico and dema and banditos and all that lol I get it’s a metaphor for Tyler’s mental struggles and that’s fine, I just don’t need the lore to understand the songs meanings about mental health, I live it too so I understand the meaning without it.
As a writer I absolutely love the lore, so I get it. But I’m also a musician and the music, for me, will always be the important part.
The band has never been very direct about the lore in the music itself. Even on Trench most of the songs stand on their own. The only real difference is that Trench’s “lore” songs (eg. Nico, Bandito) are a little more direct than Clancy’s (eg. Overcompensate, Paladin). But overall most of the story has always been in the videos and things like dmaorg.info.
The albums rather focus on the same themes as that part of the story. Trench is about being trapped and looking out. Clancy is about looking back on where you’ve come from and fighting back. These messages are still in the music even if Clancy and Nico aren’t. And don’t worry we’ve still got massive videos, so the story isn’t going anywhere 😉
I take a hard stance on this topic. Twenty one pilots was better before the lore. It’s just to much and he talked about his raw emotions and blurry face was really good but after that I feel like they got to invested in this whole thing
The lore was only ever a story telling device for the music not the other way around. People act like the story and lore is comparable to that of Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter and it’s just not. It’s just a fun little addition to the music. I’ve never let it get in the way of the music or its actual meaning. Being so invested in a story that was always secondary to the actual product which is music is really telling to me and I hate that I has ruined some people’s expectations and experiences with a genuinely great album. Also if we do want to get to the finale, assuming it is the actual end, it’s pretty clear that it represents the endless cycle of fightings off one’s demons. The whole album addresses the themes of addiction and in real life addiction is not something that is ever truly overcome, it’s something someone learns to live above even if on an unstable floor. For many people that floor breaks often and the cycle repeats itself. I don’t know why so many people are missing that very very obvious point.
I think people get way too caught up in the lore. It’s not just about the surface level story but the message of staying alive that’s important. The music is fun, they created a cool ARG, and they’re spreading a great message. Everyone needs to chill out.
"It's genius and incredible"
Is it though? The music is amazing, and if I'm being honest some of the most incredible poetry of the 21st century. But the lore is about on the same tier as a YA novel and feels really tacked on in most instances. I think it would've been better if the lore had just been left super vague in the music and no videos/explanations were ever made.
The lore *was* super vague before this era. No one on the outside knew who Clancy was until this year, while we've known about him since 2018. And no YA novels send actual letters to fans involving them in the story!
I feel almost the opposite. I like their music because of its meaning, and I’m talking about the realistic, applicable meanings. I’m not looking to listen to an audio book for entertainment, I’m looking to experience the things music allows you to.
Songs that are “lore-based” like overcompensate get skipped on my end because all it’s taking about is the “lore” and makes it hard to find the real-world implications behind the message. Songs like backslide and even navigating get played because it holds a message for all - even those outside of the fan base or unknowing of the “lore”. You just really don’t have to get that wrapped up in the logistics of it all, sit back and enjoy it for what it even is.
This is how I explain it to my family and friends (cuz none of them understands, lol):
People, as a whole, don't mind investing their time, money, and everything else thrown their way in a popular show/series or a 3+ part storyline. That's this, but thru songs and short movies (music videos).
Idk why it's so hard to understand. Lol. This lore can have a girl spinning out a little, but at the end of the day, it is premium entertainment.
Many of us have mental, physical, emotional, etc., issues. These guys happen to act theirs out thru their music, which makes my life brighter for me to see my own way.
That is all... ❤️|-/💛|-/
it doesn’t have to be tho! been listening to tøp for about 10 years. when i was younger i used to think i wasn’t as much of a fan if i didn’t explore the lore and found meaning to all of the lyrics, later on i’ve come to realize the most important meaning of all is my own, what it all means to me and how it applies to my life path…
tyler and josh are amazing artists and at the end of the day i think all they want to do is have an outlet for their feelings and share their art with the world, for it to be interpreted however we want to. the world tyler created is amazing and intriguing but i think they’re okay with us creating our own around the songs. i appreciate all the feelings that come with the songs (acceptance, hope, fear, overcoming difficulties, friendship and love) and that’s more than enough! art should never feel like a chore
I love the lore don't get me wrong. I'm glad they did it. I think it's genius I think it's fascinating I think it means A LOT. But. I got into TØP 11 years ago in 2013 for the music not the lore. I will always be here for the music first. The lore is just an awesome add on :p
Thank you so much for this post! This is EXACTLY how I feel, the disappointment is SO REAL when it comes to the ending of PS. The frustration I feel shouldn't be there when it comes to the songs themselves, as you put so well.
why can't people just enjoy it for the music. not everything has to be about lore and not everything has to have an ending. i saw someone else say this (i can't find the post) but it's obvious that the lore is a parallel to tyler's mental health journey and that isn't over so the lore doesn't have to be either. and if it is, they have every right to end it how it is
I’ve been a fan of them since RAB, the lore is awesome and I have serious respect for them for managing to come up with such a long thought out story. Personally, I don’t care all that much about the lore. I don’t deep dive so heavily into it to the point it’s “exhausting.” I listen for the music, and to relate. I don’t listen to complain about the artist and what they did or didn’t deliver.
I listen because it’s personal to them. It’s personal to Tyler and his story. It’s HIS art. If you don’t enjoy it, that’s fine, but don’t hate on it because you simply are “tired” of trying to figure it out. Just listen and enjoy it man. They put a lot of work into it and it’s a fantastic album, lore related or not.
They are Christians. They don't want to make a big deal about it (and they know their fan base don't want them to either) but they are creative and feel compelled and lead. It's all metaphors and allegories of good and bad and spiritual warfare with demonic forces against rebels. Read CS Lewis Screwtape Letters or Tolkien or Charles Williams or George MacDonald. Creative people writing about all the questions people normally ask about God.
I like the cliffhanger because thanks to it I can imagine Clancy setting some boundaries and play football with Nico afterwards and no one can tell me I'm wrong because they wouldn't know better
I’m going to get so much hate for this but I actually think this album is their weakest one.
‘Overcompensate’ started so strong, but the rest of the album didn’t deliver on that promise. The album doesn’t sound cohesive to me, it doesn’t know what it wants to be. I’ve listened to it so many times hoping to hear the magic but I can’t find it.
i enjoy hyperfixating on lore tbh so i don’t really have problems with it, but.
man i miss the blurryface era so much… the concept and the lore of it were vague enough to not take over the songs, you didn’t need some deep lore knowledge to get the message. the combination of sound, messages, concept and the aesthetics makes it my favorite era. it truly felt like its all about the music.
now sometimes they feel more like writers. like the music sometimes becomes and extension of the lore. people are saying that you can still enjoy the music without understanding the lore but in some cases you can not fully? like there are lore heavy songs that either dont really make sense or dont hit as hard without some lore knowledge.
You don't need to understand the lore to be able to appreciate and empathize with the emotions in the songs. I've been a fan since Vessel, have never followed the lore, and TøP is still one of my favourite artists because the music is evocative.
yes ofc you can appreciate and get the emotions, you can still connect to the song in some capacity, but for SOME songs you wont get the FULL meaning without some lore knowledge. idk why you felt the need to argue, i said “not fully”, not that you can not at all enjoy the music and feel the emotions
See I feel like people get so into the lore they lose the face value meaning of the lyrics sometimes. I saw someone complaining that Backslide wasn't a good song because they didn't personally know what a rat race was and didn't Google it, instead discounting the entire song.
Additionally they didn't like the lyrics "benefit from the shoes no lace, take the seat with the crease in it" because they didn't understand the literal meaning of having such a mundane routine that you have YOUR seat and you're a responsible grown up who needs shoes to throw on to take out the bins, mow the grass etc. Because they weren't able to attribute every lyric to the lore it was deemed Not A Good Song.
So it can definitely go the other way too.
Not arguing, just discussing :)
that kinda strengthens my point. thats what you get when you go so lore heavy that an entire album is like “oh the bishops made me do it”, making it seem like there is this huge detailed world. people go hungry for the story and overanalyze lyrics because at some point they encountered something they couldn’t get without some lore knowledge. and after songs like “doubt” with lyrics “gnawing on the bishops” we know that tyler can make lore references even when we have no way of getting it, bc we didnt even know about bishops at that point. that makes some people look for lore references everywhere. so its kinda like you either dont care about the lore and miss out on some meanings or you risk doing too much and try to find lore references in every lyric
I agree. It has always been more about the music and the message that I personally resonate with than about the lore. The lore is cool and all but it leaves room for disappointment where i’d rather just love the album for what I want it to be.
People replying saying that the lore is an after thought or not the main focus, what???? Their whole marketing has been ARGs telling the story of the lore since at LEAST Trench.
I agree wholly with this post. They promised a much different album than what we got, and it has been extremely disappointing. The album itself is great, but it is NOT what they told us it was going to be at all.
It’s an amazing album, their best A LITTLE behind Trench, but the way it was presented in the last years and the results are…a little dissappointing, at least until the next part/deluxe will come.
I’ve always appriciated the lore, I find the story and everything cool. The MVs have been very entertaining.
However, the part where we’re supposed to «look» for the new videoes and new content I’m a bit «eh». Like I know many people enjoy it, but that’s a layer that sometimes is a tad too much.
It often ends up with the people who don’t have as much free time, don’t Get to be in on all the «fun» and have to wait to for a recap e.g the Paladin strait video. Good on the people who solve the stuff, though.
Maybe I just haven’t followed the subreddit closely in the past but this has seemed like the schizophrenia era for some of you lore heads. I can imagine it’s been exhausting for people doing hours of investigating and typing paragraphs upon paragraphs of theory. As for the ending, this is probably not the true end of the lore just yet but all of this lore is a parallel of a battle of mental health and I don’t think there even can be a true solid ending
Y’all are way too invested in the lore. But this is a band that makes music. Incredible music. The lore is fantastic but I’ve seen people lose sight of what it represents and also kinda ignore the music. The lore is just a bonus. I’m really happy with Clancy, it’s a fantastic album. Wouldn’t change a thing about it.
I think there’s something to be said about “fandom” here too… the moment something is exhausting and not fun… you’re not enjoying it anymore and should probably step away as the OP is doing. At least for a bit. It’s not something to like anymore but a liability and I think that’s a bit silly to commit to without any incentive.
But that's the risk that any artist takes when they decide to add lore to there appeal. Lore is meant to spark obsession. Think lord of the rings, Harry potter etc. Of course these worlds are much bigger than 21 pilots lore, but the very point of lore is to lure fans into a narrative
Invalid comparison to cinematic universes aside, I understand your point. It is a risk they ran when they introduced the lore. But isn’t it up to us as the listeners to remember where and who the lore is coming from?
Retweet
The album is called 'Clancy' for a reason.
Couldn’t agree more
I agree and disagree. Mostly I disagree that going hog wild on lore is a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. (EDIT: I appreciate y’all filling in the knowledge gaps for those who got confused by that expression. I think “throw the baby out with the bath water” is both a cultural and a generational thing 😆) The music is the meat, and the lore is the toppings; enjoy the meat, but have as many **or as few** of the toppings as you want. When I listen to the music, I **sometimes** think about the lore. I also think about - my mom (RIP) and her advice to scream at God, because “He’s a big boy! He can take it!” - drowning in the logistics of life, with just enough strength for “one more try.” And another “one more try” on another day. And another… - memories of toying with… unsafe plans - times I was blessed to (essentially) say to others “I’m fairly local” and help them navigate - the numerous things in my life that can be summed up in two words: Sahlo Folina
deep! i loved it, you just guided me as you’re fairly local. also, what does “throw the baby out with the bath water” mean????
Bath water is dirty after a kid bathes and you need to throw it out. It would be stupid to say that since the bath water is dirty, we need to get rid of the baby along with it. It just means don’t throw out everything because some of it is bad. If you stop listening to this album because you don’t like how the story/lore is going, you’re missing out on just the music itself and how great it is.
u/Routine-Theme5698 I’m glad! Also, oh dang, I didn’t think that some people hadn’t heard that expression before. Thanks u/ilovesunsets93 for filling in the knowledge gaps there 😁
also, english is not my first language, so in matters of cultural language, we miss a lot in expressions
tysm! perfect explanation
Happy to help!
It comes from way back when. Before running water was a thing and everyone was working in the Fields. Generally the father of the house would bathe first, then the mother, then the children by age. So by the time you got to the baby there's a good chance you couldnt even see the baby in the bathwater because it was so dirty. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
This!!! When the lore first was announced I honestly hated it and thought Tyler was writing a screenplay. Maybe that’s why I listen to the music and see it for what it really is and not just as to how it relates to the lore. The lore *is* a story made up based on Tyler’s own life and struggles. If that hasn’t become glaringly obvious to people I’m going to tell them now. If you understand anything about depression, anxiety, or having those kinds of thoughts, you’ll understand. For a lot of us, that doesn’t ever completely go away. If they want an actual conclusion of the lore, spoilers, it will probably be some version of Tyler basically portraying that he will struggle for the rest of his life, but is in a better place because he’s trying to find joy in the little things in life, hence Oldies Station. Also, that he found the courage to lean on friends more when he’s struggling, hence ATROFD. Celebrities aren’t puppets that dance on a string for us, they’re *humans*. When I listened to the album the only thing I thought is, man is he okay? Though it’s perfectly acceptable to dig into and care about the lore - I enjoy it now as well, I think it’s safe to say the lore has created some entitlement in people as well, when just below the surface, the real story and its conclusion has kind of been there all along.
Yeah, like, I was even thinking “the music is like Zuko (Avatar) screaming to the skies for someone to strike him with lightning. The lore is an analogy told over a series of therapy sessions.”
Sahlo Folina is an amazing phrase, I use it often. Didn't know what it meant till embarrassingly long, but I will never stop using it.
I'm giving you a standing ovation. Beautifully said. 🤍||-//
“Pardon my delay” (heh heh) in replying Thank you so much for the kind comment!
Are you South Africa?
No, I’m from the U.S.
It's interesting. Because we also have the saying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Ive been a fan since Vessel days and I’ve not watched a single tøp music video and I know every word and key change to their discography. It’s always just been about the music for me. I do plan on watching them all before seeing them in August though, because I’m not gonna lie, I’m kinda tired of feeling left out lol.
I'm with you on that I also don't really enjoy them trying to add lore into older albums For me there is a very distinct line (idk what it is or why I feel it but) between vessel + Blurryface // Trench + SAI + Clancy
You said it yourself it's all about the music. The lore is something sprinkled in to make things that bit more... Interesting. For those who want to dig deeper and think At the end of the day, they're musicians. I'm sure they've felt tied down by the lore as well
Tied down or drowning in logistics? 😉
I never got on the lore train at all. I barely know anything. Enjoying the music just fine without it 👍
Finally found someone similar to me! I didn't really realise there was lore for a while and when I did, I was not interested to look into it. I love their songs and music all the same.
Same here! I have to say it's been itching me to kinda learn or slightly look into it. It seems they are super invested in this lore but at this point is it even worth my mind going backwards to try and understand it all? I think it's cool they've done it but same. I just enjoy their music and have loads of 21P tats but just don't know the lore.
There’s a lot of us! I think most of us are people who became fans outside the Trench era. It seems to me most people who became fans during the Trench era are obsessed with the lore, whereas most people who became fans outside the Trench era are like “oh, interesting… anyway” In my case, I was a fan before the Trench era (Vessel) and was eagerly waiting for Trench just because I wanted new music from them after what felt like such a long hiatus after Blurryface. I was vaguely aware of the lore at the time, but didn’t care enough to dig into details… Especially since it looked like so much work! Ppl were solving all these puzzles and looking for clues and, quite frankly, I didn’t find the story compelling enough to be worth doing all that work. 
It must be! I have been a fan since 2012 in the Vessel era as well. TOP are my favourite band and would listen to them on repeat, I even have a tattoo. I think for me in 2018, i was discovering new music and I didn't vibe with the Trench singles that much before the album came out so I wasn't jumping to listen to it (don't hate me everyone lol). Once I listened to it, I loved the music but just did not have a clue about any lore until joining the reddit a few years later once SAI came out. I was so far behind there was no point in catching up by then similar to you.
I am also a fan since Vessel. Trench was so lore heavy they kinda lost me for a bit there. It has grown on me over the years and thankfully SAI brought me back.
Same here! It pains me when I see newer fans preach about the lore being the most important part of loving this band. I've loved them since Vessel and all I care about is that they are relatable and that the music is pleasing to the ear.
Yes my people
I had no idea there was even any lore at all. I only really started listening recently though
Agreed! I just looked into the lore for the first time because of this sub and I just couldn’t even follow it 🤷♀️
Fully. The lore is cool and I pay attention when I want to, but it's so easy to turn that off and just enjoy the music.
I know bits and pieces of the lore, enough to appreciate it's complexity even when I don't get all of it. However, I will always put their music at #1. I enjoy it more when I don't have to think about anything but what the music is trying to convey
Same, they have great production, good vocals and some great song ideas and topics (without the lore) That was enough for me being a fan since 2017
Honestly people overhyped the "definitive ending" thing imo. Some press releases mentioned Clancy being the end, but the band themselves (especially Tyler) only ever said that the story *needs* an ending and Clancy teases what's to come Paladin Strait definitely felt like that teaser and then some so I was pleasantly surprised
Man seriously. I know people who’ve gone off about how Tyler lied about the end, when the only interview I can find is him very carefully dancing around not actually saying it is. I feel like people drew expectations from that and are disappointed from their own assumptions.
I agree on just enjoying the music, but about the lore... we do it to ourselves. To wish they never did it because you got into it enough to exhaust yourself is crazy.
It’s not crazy. It started off interesting and fun and it ended up exhausting for the op. Like starting to go for 100% in a video game and realizing it’s no fun after a certain point. It affected op’s feelings about it all and that isn’t crazy. I think a more suitable approach would be to wish op never got into it but oh well. Tyler kinda wishes he never did Saturday so…
I agree with one comment that regarding the lore, you did it to yourself. They are musicians first, not film makers. The lore is an addition, not the norm. Exhausting yourself from this is insane imo
I think this era has been all about expectations. This fanbase sets a lot of expectations and when those expectations aren't met they get disappointed. Expectation leads to disappointment.
I promise you as someone who loves the lore…it is not that deep to dwell over. Enjoy the music for what it is, and put the lore second.
This sub takes the lore entirely too seriously. Lol
To be fair, I’ve been a fan since 2013 and I didn’t get super into the lore until this year. It was exhausting for me to keep up with everyone in 2018 finding clues that eventually I just gave up. I still went to their show in 2018 and 2022 and they were fantastic without knowing much of the lore at all.
this part!! as a longtime fan when the lore started becoming a thing I was a little... side eyeing the intensity lmao
i thought that Paladin wasn't the end? Tyler posted that one tweet in response to someone who asked if the conclusion would be in the shows and he said that the shows would be the lead up to the final battle. Seems like the ending would be after the tour is over. I guess I don't see why that's a bad thing? there was such a long gap between trench and clancy it's only a year. not to diminish your feelings at all i guess i'm just saying don't feel too down about it and don't give up!
The way I see it, whatever we get in June 2025 will be an extension of the album and tour. It’s one big era, so to speak, and this is just the beginning of the end. I’m excited for a year of whatever they have in store for us. And even MORE excited about the concert than I was when I bought the tickets on release day!
The way I see it, the lore is just another layer to the music, it's not the main essence of it, it's just another dimension of it to add some meaning to the story (the lore of Clancy is all about him fighting back against DEMA, showing the decision to fight back against mental health struggles "cause sometimes to stay alive you gotta kill your mind". If you want to just enjoy the music, that's fine, the music is amazing. It you want a deeper story about struggling with mental health because it might enhance the emotions behind the music, then you can listen to and keep track of the lore. If you find this ARG type thing and the mystery fun, then you can get fully involved in mapping out and discovering all the lore. The way I see it it's similar to video games, some people just want to play the game and will go through the whole story just playing, others will read the lore related stuff as they go along because it helps them enjoy the game and world building more, then some with dive head first into all the lore and search the entire world map for every bit of lore because they find it fun. In the end, do what you want, as long as you're enjoying it, that's fine.
Just a reminder that tøp are a music band and not a book or a movie franchise. The lore is secondary and quite frankly the fanbase makes it very annoying since at every squint of an eye from Tyler people come out with the craziest theories
Lol, is that serious to you? 'I’m moving on guys, it’s too much for me to handle.' 'I kinda wish they never did any of this lore because I’m not happy with it 😭.' The problem isn’t the lore; your problem is your obsession with it. I love the lore, but at the same time, I don’t spend every waking minute searching for clues and creating theories, only to be let down when my wacky theories don’t happen.
I’m new to the fandom and, honestly, the lore is what made me even give them a chance. I never hated their music, but nothing really stood out to me. When I found out there was lore attached, however, I got a lot more interested and actually started to listen to their music. I fell in love with the lyrics. Personally, I just wait for other people to figure out the little details.
I’m very excited to see their next projects that won’t be tied down to the logistics of the lore. I’m a big fan of the lore but Tyler obviously vocalized his frustrations with it.
That’s entirely on you. Just listen to the music
I wish ppl were just grateful and appreciative of what the guys have done instead of complaining about it being to little or too much
YES, it makes me so sad that people are being so needy and overbearing about all of this.
Life would be easier for some of y'all if you gave lore less importance and focus on the music from the beginning. The lore is not saying anything that's not in the music already. Their songs and lore are about the same topic. Just enjoy the music. The rest is just an extra.
The lore is great if that is what you want to add to your listening experience. Personally I love thematic albums like Dark Side of the Moon, Days of Future Passed, and The Wall, so the lore for me is just *chef’s kiss*. It helps me just appreciate the music more. If you just listen to the music because it’s great music, that’s awesome too! I’m not here to yuck someone else’s yum! People enjoy aural experiences differently. And that’s when you really see diversity in favorite songs from the album. As a tism girlypop, I really connect deeply with music. So a song like Paladin just hits me right in the pocket, whereas ATROFD is just good. Enjoy the sounds the way you want to. Because in the end it’s only about your personal experience with the tracks. Not someone else’s.
He said “put a bow on it” not end it. Tomorrow if nothing comes everybody is yelling at Tyler “hope you’re dead cause how could you sleep at a time like this.” Lol My perspective is that we never saw the “beginning” of the story. You werent there to see clancy born. You weren’t there to see the rise of nico and the bishops. You weren’t there when the bishops hijacked the religion (probably of the torchbearers). You weren’t there when the banditos formed. The story started with everything in place, things were going, because Tyler was an adult when this story began to be told and also because this is how we tell stories more often than not. The end of any story is almost never THE end. Any fairy tale when the prince marries the princess and they live happily ever after… and then you never see the princess getting tired of the Prince that never folds his own laundry or covers his mouth when he sneezes. You want a happily ever after? An epic marvel comics final battle? Just dont believe the hype I just don’t think thats what would come from tøp. They are better than that. The question is one worth asking with any story. Take the bible: when the flood comes and Noah saves the day and all the bad people are dead. The end. Or is it? Maybe not. Maybe something more happens next. Moses confronts Pharaoh. Pharaoh says no. The end. Or nah, Moses does more miracles and eventually they cross the read sea and Pharaoh and his men drown in the waters behind them. The end. Or is it? Nah there is more. They wander in the desert (of my mind…, addict with a pen anyone?) for 40 years and never get to see the promised land. The end. Or is it? Does that sound like the end to you? For a specific story or segment any one of those pieces could have been the end. Tyler’s story is still going and I am sure he has good days and bad days like the rest of us. The key is we get to see Clancy confidently looking his demons in the eys, all the glowing eyes, and the fear in his periphery is starting to shrink instead of grow and he is a little less concerned when there is nothing in the tank, when there is no obvious escape, when his car radio or his “air catcher” get stolen because now he doesn’t even know if he wants it back because he doesn’t believe in talking just to breathe and he wont just say what you want to hear that nico is dead and there is nothing to fear. He has gotten used to nico and relative pain and has given us all an example of how to write our fears to keep moving forward. Thanks to Tyler and Clancy I have begun to understand why God died. That is a complete enough story for me. I wont be sad if I am wrong and there is more, because of course there is more there is tomorrow but it’s the end of today and thats enough for me. I think he is ready to morph and we can all release him from the present we’re obsessin’ all these questions just take this moment to live in the future. I have been here from the beginning and this is their best album imo
This is why we should just sit back and relax. We got people literally going crazy over music. I get this band is special and different but it’s not this deep. We don’t need people to connect 361927 different points to maybe get an answer. Juts be patient and we’ll get our answers
When I got into Twenty One Pilots the lore was exciting. The deep lyrics with some of it being layers and layers got me excited and reading theories here on reddit was fulfilling. I had my own meaning to these songs based on my experiences and faith. But, it slowly got tiring. Arguing, bickering, all of the theories before Trench then after SAI made me completely uninterested in lore. It´s nice and unique, but some take it way too seriously. I loved SAI album, and era. The way they performed with live band was amazing and I felt great moving forward. Yes, lyrics were deep and did not correspond with happy feeling of these songs but people hating the album because "Tyler is under control of DEMA" is nonsense. SAI has a special place in my heart. Especially Live Experience with band playing. Clancy is great album. Full stop. I think Tyler should have chosen different songs for singles. Overcompensate was great but didn´t correspond with the sound of the album. SImilarly to Catalyst of Linkin Park´s A Thousand Suns. It´s a little bit off. Every song is kind of different on this album, but songs like Routines in the Night or Oldies Station could maybe get a spot on radio playlists. The lore and overhyped "this ends it all" was so tiring I get you man. Enjoy music, many people have no idea about this lore and better for them. Still some people in here take things way too far and from being theories it quickly become delusion, nonsense or straight up conspiracy theory.
This 🤙
I'll be honest, it's hilarious seeing how cooked fans are getting, but at the end of the day, I a) don't care about the lore compared to the actual music and b) enjoyed Clancy enough that I wouldn't mind if it's the last TOP album (ever or for the next while)
I agree with you. When I saw overcompensate I was hyped. But lore-wise I was overall disappointed by this album. This said, I still enjoy most of its songs
I think its a good ending, I think fans can get a bit obsessive and expect too much sometimes
Hope you don't get downvoted into oblivion because I agree to an extent. I LOVE what they've been doing with the story and the music and everything. But if they would have just been transparent about what is actually happening and if it's the end/when we're getting the end and if we should be expecting more songs or not, it would have been even more enjoyable.
Haha downvoted into oblivion. I love it. But yeah, I hear you and agree. I’m just genuinely exhausted from this whole rollout.
I get that. I feel like doing that too.
I just feel bad for all the new people who are like “what’s up with that? Hm? Let me just do a quick YouTube search…” and then they have to watch 27 hours of lore videos to catch all the way up from a decades worth of story. that barrier halts the progress of those who got clued in by a long term fan who has been in the shits for a while now. I’ve heard it from friends and family “there’s too much to get into it would take too long to catch up and blah blah blah blah blah” I’m sure some of you reading this have had a similar experience. Maybe not. But I guess for me, since I’ve been here along for the ride since the beginning? I’ve got to see the end to feel complete. Plus the music slaps, so.
People over exaggerate how much lore there is, especially in retrospect. There's a continent called Trench, inside there's a city called DEMA, controlled by 9 bishops that impose the religion of Vialism that praises suicide (and then control the dead bodies via seizing). The main bishop is Nico or Blurryface. The main character is called Clancy. His friend is the torchbearer. For you to "understand" the music, that's all.
My least favorite thing about TOP is the lore and they are by far my favorite band. Fucking love the album and don’t give two hoots about the lore.
It might be lore to you, but to him this is his life. His story. Yeah it’s exhausting, imagine how exhausted the band is, but you’re making it about yourself. This is Tyler’s way of expressing himself, and it always has been. It’s not for people to like or dislike. It’s to cope, and to inspire. Music holds no meaning, and no purpose without the challenges we face. There is always a solution. It’s been here all this time. Sahlo folina he says; To enable your creativity in coping with issues. Keep your head up high and your friends close. This is Tyler’s entire point of making music
I actually think the ending of PS is kinda beautiful and poetic. Nico touches Clancy which usually means he gets taken. This time he doesn’t get taken. Instead he opens his eyes and looks Nico in the eyes. I think it symbolizes how we never truly win over our demons. Things like anxiety, depression, and other mental illnesses never really go away; you don’t “beat” them, you just learn to live with them. I think Clancy looking at Nico is him acknowledging this simple truth. He can’t win, he can only acknowledge his demons as another part of himself, just like we all have to do if we want to find happiness and contentment. We see them for what they are, but we choose not to give them power over us anymore. We just have to keep moving forward, striving every single day to be better. Idk, I could be completely off base, but I liked the ending. I don’t see it as a cliffhanger at all. That said, the music slaps, lore or not.
The problem is not the lore, the problem is that some of us put the lore in a place where it was never meant to be.
Wow. I can't imagine feeling this amount of discontent. I appreciate the music the most, but the lore adds to it. Sure, they could've done without it, but it just goes to show how passionate, creative, and talented these guys are. And I, for one, consider it a privilege to be allowed into the inner-workings and creative mind of theirs. They are one of the most ingenious artists of this generation, and I am grateful that they give their fans more meaningful lyrics than "work work work work work work." 'Nuff said.
Idk man I like how their music sounds in general. I know there’s lore, don’t understand a bit of it, frankly I don’t care to, I just love their songs and messages.
Nah I don’t think the lore is over.
I’m such a big twenty one pilots fan. I know about the lore, I understand it, I think it’s super cool and fun. But I enjoy it in the background of all the incredible music. Clancy is a fantastic album, and so is Scaled and Icy, there are some amazing compositions on both albums. On every album they’ve written. Tyler Joseph understand music in a way I don’t feel with a lot of other modern artists, especially when it comes to performing live. This is why I love the band. I could give up on Dema and all that, but I’ll never give up this music because it’s utterly fantastic. Well done, thought out, and mastered. Mixed and transitioned and structured. All the words. I never started taking the lore that seriously, and I never got tired of the music. Remember, what drives this story at its heart are the songs.
Tyler has made it clear from the jump that the final battle happens after this album. I don’t know why yall are disappointed in, and so hung up on, the cliffhanger Clancy ends on.
Y'all do realize the fans created the lore and not Tyler or the band right. Yes the band went with it for the fans but the "lore" was started by the fan base
Bro what’s wrong with the lore. It’s never been about actual physical videos it been about the deep psychological means behind what we’re seeing and hearing. He’s not leaving us on a cliffhanger he’s filling us in on how he felt along the way
I love their music. Absolutely love it. But the lore man.. it really has gotten to that point where it feels exhausting to me to. I was excited for it to end so it can just be about the music from now on.
Gotta agree with you and disagree with the folks who said something like "you did this to yourself". It was so fun solving those puzzles and following the clues during Trench and SAI, that it's only normal to be hyped for Clancy's lore, too. Were things over-hyped? Perhaps. But the band literally encouraged us to dive deep into this lore. They chose Overcompensate as their very first music video and song to be released and set expectations that didn't align with the rest of the album (the album is incredible tho, don't get me wrong). They openly spoke about laying out the story for everyone to understand, how excited they were to bring this to an end and would withhold the Paladin Strait video until people downloaded some limited digital background material, assembled all pictures in there in the right order, found a hidden website and a hidden code for it. Not to mention the exhibit they did and that you would miss out on their live shows if you weren't informed enough to answer the questions for the small live shows they did. To conclude this essay: I am exhausted, too. I'll be still checking in on lore updates, but will lean back for the biggest part and enjoy the music.
I've been waiting for a place to unload this but I really just do not vibe with this album, and the cliffhanger ending plus the garbage ticket prices kind of killed my interest in it.
I hear you. When they did the I Am Clancy video, the cover, then overcompensate came out I thought this would be a very different album. It was set up to be similar to Trench in terms of lore and the vibe I got was a vibe of victory but that’s not what we got at all. Plus they promoted it as a very lore heavy song and we only got 3 which doesn’t make sense per the promotion. So I’m with you.
sorry but I don't agree with you: it's the end of the story, so it's normal that it must have a lot of lore in it, also because the past albums never had too much direct lore (it was always a "behind the scene"). You can't close a story without being direct with it, and I'm sure Tyler want all of us to really understand what's going on, but also, leaving us space so the story can have some different meaning for all of us, the same goes with all the songs that he and Josh and al the group create!
then just enjoy the music dude. no need to whine about an aspect you "don't care" about
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You never seen a movie end on a cliffhanger? Sometimes it's best not to have a sappy cheesy ending but leave it to the imagination of the viewer/listener. Clancy saved the banditos and citizens of dema, what happens with him specifically isn't that important. We knew from Nico and the numbers 'we'll win but not everyone will get out" the lore showed that happen. In reality it would piss off people no matter what happens past what we've seen. So probably the best way to end it is knowing he accomplished what he set out to do and leave it at that
I've loved them since vessel as well It's also always been about the music for me it actually helped me out through so much growing up and the lore I think is just a cool fun bonus for me.
Never followed the lore and I'm so happy I didn't. Just let it go and enjoy the music.
the only thing I can tell in my years of experience in life, is don't take things so seriously, that goes for Lore, Jokes and Insults... I listen to many conceptual bands, they wear masks or makeup and create weird stories, but at the end if the songs are bad, why we should care about the lore?. P.s: I love the new album, I feel like is very personal for Tyler
Finally someone is getting my point! Their music is much more valuable when you take the lore out
Username checks
Consider the lore as a bonus, as you mentioned, it's about the music and how it resonates with you. Clancy's songs address internal struggles and overcoming daily thoughts and problems, which resonates with many people.
While the lore makes this band so unique, they’re still musicians first. And I think the fact that you can enjoy this without knowing/focusing on the lore just as much as any die-hard fan shows they’re doing an excellent job. Also, I don’t think this (the Paladin Strait) was the END end. I think there will be something more—for now just enjoy the music :)
I kind of agree. I’m not as annoyed by the lore but I certainly don’t care about it. I enjoy the songs for what they are. I love Clancy because it is an incredible album with great songs and moving lyrics. It’s definitely my 2nd favorite TOP album now, behind Vessel. Lyrically, it moves me the same way Vessel does. But I agree I find the lore a bit exhausting and was never interested in figuring what it all was about. But I know others enjoy it, and that’s fine. I like Clancy more than Trench because Trench was too lore heavy for my taste. Musically it was good but lyrically, I don’t care about Nico and dema and banditos and all that lol I get it’s a metaphor for Tyler’s mental struggles and that’s fine, I just don’t need the lore to understand the songs meanings about mental health, I live it too so I understand the meaning without it.
As a writer I absolutely love the lore, so I get it. But I’m also a musician and the music, for me, will always be the important part. The band has never been very direct about the lore in the music itself. Even on Trench most of the songs stand on their own. The only real difference is that Trench’s “lore” songs (eg. Nico, Bandito) are a little more direct than Clancy’s (eg. Overcompensate, Paladin). But overall most of the story has always been in the videos and things like dmaorg.info. The albums rather focus on the same themes as that part of the story. Trench is about being trapped and looking out. Clancy is about looking back on where you’ve come from and fighting back. These messages are still in the music even if Clancy and Nico aren’t. And don’t worry we’ve still got massive videos, so the story isn’t going anywhere 😉
I take a hard stance on this topic. Twenty one pilots was better before the lore. It’s just to much and he talked about his raw emotions and blurry face was really good but after that I feel like they got to invested in this whole thing
The lore was only ever a story telling device for the music not the other way around. People act like the story and lore is comparable to that of Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter and it’s just not. It’s just a fun little addition to the music. I’ve never let it get in the way of the music or its actual meaning. Being so invested in a story that was always secondary to the actual product which is music is really telling to me and I hate that I has ruined some people’s expectations and experiences with a genuinely great album. Also if we do want to get to the finale, assuming it is the actual end, it’s pretty clear that it represents the endless cycle of fightings off one’s demons. The whole album addresses the themes of addiction and in real life addiction is not something that is ever truly overcome, it’s something someone learns to live above even if on an unstable floor. For many people that floor breaks often and the cycle repeats itself. I don’t know why so many people are missing that very very obvious point.
I think people get way too caught up in the lore. It’s not just about the surface level story but the message of staying alive that’s important. The music is fun, they created a cool ARG, and they’re spreading a great message. Everyone needs to chill out.
"It's genius and incredible" Is it though? The music is amazing, and if I'm being honest some of the most incredible poetry of the 21st century. But the lore is about on the same tier as a YA novel and feels really tacked on in most instances. I think it would've been better if the lore had just been left super vague in the music and no videos/explanations were ever made.
The lore *was* super vague before this era. No one on the outside knew who Clancy was until this year, while we've known about him since 2018. And no YA novels send actual letters to fans involving them in the story!
I feel almost the opposite. I like their music because of its meaning, and I’m talking about the realistic, applicable meanings. I’m not looking to listen to an audio book for entertainment, I’m looking to experience the things music allows you to. Songs that are “lore-based” like overcompensate get skipped on my end because all it’s taking about is the “lore” and makes it hard to find the real-world implications behind the message. Songs like backslide and even navigating get played because it holds a message for all - even those outside of the fan base or unknowing of the “lore”. You just really don’t have to get that wrapped up in the logistics of it all, sit back and enjoy it for what it even is.
This is how I explain it to my family and friends (cuz none of them understands, lol): People, as a whole, don't mind investing their time, money, and everything else thrown their way in a popular show/series or a 3+ part storyline. That's this, but thru songs and short movies (music videos). Idk why it's so hard to understand. Lol. This lore can have a girl spinning out a little, but at the end of the day, it is premium entertainment. Many of us have mental, physical, emotional, etc., issues. These guys happen to act theirs out thru their music, which makes my life brighter for me to see my own way. That is all... ❤️|-/💛|-/
it doesn’t have to be tho! been listening to tøp for about 10 years. when i was younger i used to think i wasn’t as much of a fan if i didn’t explore the lore and found meaning to all of the lyrics, later on i’ve come to realize the most important meaning of all is my own, what it all means to me and how it applies to my life path… tyler and josh are amazing artists and at the end of the day i think all they want to do is have an outlet for their feelings and share their art with the world, for it to be interpreted however we want to. the world tyler created is amazing and intriguing but i think they’re okay with us creating our own around the songs. i appreciate all the feelings that come with the songs (acceptance, hope, fear, overcoming difficulties, friendship and love) and that’s more than enough! art should never feel like a chore
I love the lore don't get me wrong. I'm glad they did it. I think it's genius I think it's fascinating I think it means A LOT. But. I got into TØP 11 years ago in 2013 for the music not the lore. I will always be here for the music first. The lore is just an awesome add on :p
Thank you so much for this post! This is EXACTLY how I feel, the disappointment is SO REAL when it comes to the ending of PS. The frustration I feel shouldn't be there when it comes to the songs themselves, as you put so well.
Maybe find some other hobbies cuz it’s not that deep, listen to the music, enjoy the lore, and move on with your day.
why can't people just enjoy it for the music. not everything has to be about lore and not everything has to have an ending. i saw someone else say this (i can't find the post) but it's obvious that the lore is a parallel to tyler's mental health journey and that isn't over so the lore doesn't have to be either. and if it is, they have every right to end it how it is
You have to realize the true meaning of this album and the ending of Paladin Strait to understand the story/lore.
I’ve been a fan of them since RAB, the lore is awesome and I have serious respect for them for managing to come up with such a long thought out story. Personally, I don’t care all that much about the lore. I don’t deep dive so heavily into it to the point it’s “exhausting.” I listen for the music, and to relate. I don’t listen to complain about the artist and what they did or didn’t deliver. I listen because it’s personal to them. It’s personal to Tyler and his story. It’s HIS art. If you don’t enjoy it, that’s fine, but don’t hate on it because you simply are “tired” of trying to figure it out. Just listen and enjoy it man. They put a lot of work into it and it’s a fantastic album, lore related or not.
They are Christians. They don't want to make a big deal about it (and they know their fan base don't want them to either) but they are creative and feel compelled and lead. It's all metaphors and allegories of good and bad and spiritual warfare with demonic forces against rebels. Read CS Lewis Screwtape Letters or Tolkien or Charles Williams or George MacDonald. Creative people writing about all the questions people normally ask about God.
I like the cliffhanger because thanks to it I can imagine Clancy setting some boundaries and play football with Nico afterwards and no one can tell me I'm wrong because they wouldn't know better
I’m going to get so much hate for this but I actually think this album is their weakest one. ‘Overcompensate’ started so strong, but the rest of the album didn’t deliver on that promise. The album doesn’t sound cohesive to me, it doesn’t know what it wants to be. I’ve listened to it so many times hoping to hear the magic but I can’t find it.
i am like hugely into the lore and can safely say it has never made me feel exhausted?? i think thats a little concerning
i enjoy hyperfixating on lore tbh so i don’t really have problems with it, but. man i miss the blurryface era so much… the concept and the lore of it were vague enough to not take over the songs, you didn’t need some deep lore knowledge to get the message. the combination of sound, messages, concept and the aesthetics makes it my favorite era. it truly felt like its all about the music. now sometimes they feel more like writers. like the music sometimes becomes and extension of the lore. people are saying that you can still enjoy the music without understanding the lore but in some cases you can not fully? like there are lore heavy songs that either dont really make sense or dont hit as hard without some lore knowledge.
You don't need to understand the lore to be able to appreciate and empathize with the emotions in the songs. I've been a fan since Vessel, have never followed the lore, and TøP is still one of my favourite artists because the music is evocative.
yes ofc you can appreciate and get the emotions, you can still connect to the song in some capacity, but for SOME songs you wont get the FULL meaning without some lore knowledge. idk why you felt the need to argue, i said “not fully”, not that you can not at all enjoy the music and feel the emotions
See I feel like people get so into the lore they lose the face value meaning of the lyrics sometimes. I saw someone complaining that Backslide wasn't a good song because they didn't personally know what a rat race was and didn't Google it, instead discounting the entire song. Additionally they didn't like the lyrics "benefit from the shoes no lace, take the seat with the crease in it" because they didn't understand the literal meaning of having such a mundane routine that you have YOUR seat and you're a responsible grown up who needs shoes to throw on to take out the bins, mow the grass etc. Because they weren't able to attribute every lyric to the lore it was deemed Not A Good Song. So it can definitely go the other way too. Not arguing, just discussing :)
that kinda strengthens my point. thats what you get when you go so lore heavy that an entire album is like “oh the bishops made me do it”, making it seem like there is this huge detailed world. people go hungry for the story and overanalyze lyrics because at some point they encountered something they couldn’t get without some lore knowledge. and after songs like “doubt” with lyrics “gnawing on the bishops” we know that tyler can make lore references even when we have no way of getting it, bc we didnt even know about bishops at that point. that makes some people look for lore references everywhere. so its kinda like you either dont care about the lore and miss out on some meanings or you risk doing too much and try to find lore references in every lyric
I agree. It has always been more about the music and the message that I personally resonate with than about the lore. The lore is cool and all but it leaves room for disappointment where i’d rather just love the album for what I want it to be.
People replying saying that the lore is an after thought or not the main focus, what???? Their whole marketing has been ARGs telling the story of the lore since at LEAST Trench. I agree wholly with this post. They promised a much different album than what we got, and it has been extremely disappointing. The album itself is great, but it is NOT what they told us it was going to be at all.
Thank you for understanding where I’m coming from!
Imagine downvoting me for saying facts lmao
It’s an amazing album, their best A LITTLE behind Trench, but the way it was presented in the last years and the results are…a little dissappointing, at least until the next part/deluxe will come.
completely agree. 100%. it is so unfortunate.
I’ve always appriciated the lore, I find the story and everything cool. The MVs have been very entertaining. However, the part where we’re supposed to «look» for the new videoes and new content I’m a bit «eh». Like I know many people enjoy it, but that’s a layer that sometimes is a tad too much. It often ends up with the people who don’t have as much free time, don’t Get to be in on all the «fun» and have to wait to for a recap e.g the Paladin strait video. Good on the people who solve the stuff, though.
I’m 100% with you!
I feel the same way
Maybe I just haven’t followed the subreddit closely in the past but this has seemed like the schizophrenia era for some of you lore heads. I can imagine it’s been exhausting for people doing hours of investigating and typing paragraphs upon paragraphs of theory. As for the ending, this is probably not the true end of the lore just yet but all of this lore is a parallel of a battle of mental health and I don’t think there even can be a true solid ending