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Will Hungarians reconsider their support for Orban as the prospect of potential EU and NATO expulsion looms due to his treasonous actions? Or are they ready for the russki mir?
the EU isn't "swallowing" it smh. the EU is a complex organization built on mutual agreement and even if everyone can agree on a course of action it can't just up and kick a country out or force them to do whatever it wants. Nor should they want to. They're using the mechanisms built into EU law to try and force Orban to reverse a lot of the more egregious antidemocratic reforms he's enacted over the years, but this is by necessity a slow and incomplete process. The EU can't just directly force a country to totally change its political system, and that's by design. Imagine trying to pitch a European Union that had that kind of coercive force to member states, nobody would have gotten on board.
I mean, that is pretty much a description of why many ordinary people voted Brexit. The EU creates red tape for countries that voluntarily agree or ignore. The UK got fed up doing stuff that everyone else ignored.
the UK left the EU because some rich assholes bought a bunch of facebook data and used it to peddle borderline conspiracy misinformation about the EU to boomers. The UK actually had an exceptionally sweet deal vis a vis the EU and quality of life in the UK has decreased somewhat since all the EU "red tape" has disappeared.
I don't disagree. But it was an easy political battle to convince people of, for the exact reason I said. I'll give you an example: an EU wide ban on smoking in restaurants. I agreed with this. Smokers hated standing out in the rain (there were not even shelters when this first started). Yet for years, this was not enforced anywhere else, and the people went on holiday, or business trips, and saw this. I work for a German business and frequently travel to Germany. As a non-smoker, I hated that every restaurant was allowed to register as a smoking club. Smokers hated the fact that only the UK was being true to the spirit of the law. I am not saying people voted Brexit because of the lack of fair enforcement of an indoor smoking ban, I'm saying that there was a huge under current of disgruntled working-income people who were easy to play to.
They won't be expelled from Nato. That defeats the purpose of Nato (but I do think their voice needs to be removed on any Nato affairs that aren't exercises and affairs happening inside Hungarian borders)
Because the entire core reason Nato exists is that Nato membership serves as a buffer to a Russian threat. Countries that don't have nuclear capabilities are protected under the collective assurances provided by the rest of Nato, which means any member can't be invaded or attacked by Russia without triggering a response from ALL of Nato.
All kicking someone out entirely does is create a territory Russia can invade and Nato has no ground to stand on with getting involved where Russia can't simply point and scream "See, see! They're the instigator!"
Which is PRECISELY why Ukraine has been invaded. If Ukraine had been in Nato already, this wouldn't have happened. Nuclear disarmament with no Nato membership to fall back on means all Ukraine had was a flimsy IOU from the west and *now the consequences of that, and the bureaucratic hesitancy of the west has let this war and genocide happen.*
Nato membership isn't about a giant friendship circle holding hands where everyone agrees on every policy. It's not the EU either where trade is a huge aspect. It's not the UN where a forum for policy debate is intended to exist. It is strictly a mutual collective assurance pact that prevents Russia from invading and / or attacking any Nato members without triggering a full scale third world war.
What ISN'T necessary for Nato to function and still retain its nuclear deterrent without losing any foothold on land is to tell Hungary to kick rocks and they don't get to have a VOICE in any decisions that aren't strictly Nato activities happening inside Hungary's own borders.
Kicking them out does nothing but signal to Russia that they are fair game, and simply creates a vacuum for a VERY real Russian asset further into Europe. It's a reactive and idiotic move that puts the rest of Europe that much more at risk. Orban is stupid and an asshole but his "friendly terms" with Russia only exists so long as Russia isn't an actual threat to him. Take away Nato and even Orban isn't stupid enough to think that's a good idea. But he's betting on Nato not cutting his voice out at the table, and he knows Nato won't kick Hungary out. If Nato silences his voice at the table, though, he loses all his influence and then has to be solely responsible for handing Hungary to Putin because he will CHOOSE to leave Nato or not. Which he won't. And if he does, the people will not be happy.
There's better strategy available here. Now, as for the EU, THAT we can stand to kick members out for being bad faith players because the EU isn't a strongly military oriented deterrent, and Nato membership supplements that deyereant strategy on its own. So, cut the vocal cords, cut off the EU economic benefits, but keep your hold on the miliary asset side of having Nato activity and assurances inside Hungary. He has NOTHING to leverage if we do that. It's simply suicide for him from there.
> Countries that don't have nuclear capabilities are protected under the collective assurances provided by the rest of Nato, which means any member can't be invaded or attacked by Russia without triggering a response from ALL of Nato. All kicking someone out entirely does is create a territory Russia can invade...
Just curious what path Russia would take to conquer Hungary? Does it involve going through the center of the Earth?
Yes. Russia pours billions into opportunistic shit stirring and injecting corrupt officials into other countries for a reason. They literally did it in Ukraine ffs. Everything leading up to the 2014 invasion started with precisely this tactic. [Yanukovych was a puppet of Russian interests](https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/viktor-yanukovych-yanukovich-putin-put-back-in-power-ukraine-russia/) and he allowed Russia to renew its lease on naval bases in Crimea and signed a deal that made Ukraine more dependant on Russian gas, then turned around when Yanukovych was moving to sign a deal with the EU and applied economic pressure by cutting off Russian energy supply to Ukraine and blocking imports, so Yanukovych turned around and chose not to sign the deal with the EU. He accepted Russian financial backing, instead, which only furthered Russia's grip within Ukraine's sovereignty. His dealings with Russia enabled them to inject a shitload of military resources into Crimea, and 2hen Yanukovych was ousted, and pro-Russian groups were starting shit in the power vacuum, Putin made his move on Crimea. Putin intends to reinstate him if Ukraine is successfully taken over. He's hiding in Belarus right now. The military action in Crimea was one thing, and couldn't have happened without first injecting Russian influence and puppets into Ukraine's government to begin with. That is where this shit starts, and it doesn't necessarily even require a blatant military invasion. With enough of an internal foothold, it's significantly easier to quietly move people into "allied" countries, begin dismantling protective policy, create a significant dependence on Russian trade, use that dependency as powerful leverage to pressure those nations to do as they're *told*, destabilize them internally, and it opens the door to slowly transporting military assets in (not via a giant land invasion display like what happened on Feb 24th, but more quietly and legally like what happened in Crimea), and doing that doesn't require much. Hell, if Russia takes Ukraine, they'll even have a direct land access to Hungary so this is quite literally where this shit starts.
Russia has for decades used the injection of Russian nationals into other sovereign countries as a tactic for taking over from the inside, and non-Nato countries present a much more viable target because Nato itself complicates this, but if they have no influence on a non-members state, it's that much less Putin needs to maneuver around. Hungary doesn't need a direct invasion. It just needs to open its borders to Russian assets moving in and that starts a domino effect that doesn't end well for anyone but Russia. This is THE strategy Russia's playbook has as #1.
They also intervened on Syria to protect their own interests and put pressure on the west to negotiate as they backed the opposition inside Syria and that threatened to lose Russia another ally and further complicate their relations in the middle east. Russian intervention alongside partnership with Iranian and Turk forces forced 4 de-escalation zones in Syrian territory that removed fighting on multiple fronts in these areas and enabled the Assad Russian-Iranian backed government to begin strategically taking opposition held area one by one. Russia successfully kept the Syrian government in place, eliminated the opposition forces (thus weakening western holds in the middle east), this caused other middle eastern countries to turn and strengthen relations with Moscow as the US/west pulled out of the region, and while Russia doesn't have as much influence as the west, still, it's a vital area to have a foothold in. Russia didn't need to start with an invasion because they already had a partnership with Assad, so it ALWAYS starts there: on a political front.
And might I introduce you to a little known exotic land called Belarus? They might be next to Russia but Russia hardly needs to life a finger there anyways.
Hoenstly there's a wide enough history of this shit I shouldn't need to hold people's hands through it. And I *don't* need to. [Plenty of reputable sources lay these things out very well for the uninformed.](https://kyivindependent.com/before-ukraine-there-was-georgia-how-russia-recycles-its-2008-playbook/)
There us a REASON Nato hasn't kicked a member state out even if that member state fucking sucks, and it's precisely as I said: removing a Nato member only weakens the integrity of, and core function of Nato, and leaves a much wider opening for Russian influence and becoming a puppet state. So long as Hungary is part of Nato, that game has to be played a lot more cautiously because there are far more political "landmines" they have to maneuver around avoid triggering a Nato conflict. It limits their options. If you remove Nato from the picture, that leaves the door wide open in ways that simply aren't viable *with* Nato membership. It's a risk-reward balancing act. Russia uses a divide and destabilize strategy, and that gets even easier if there is no Nato membership. It also means said country is that much more vulnerable to their own leader 'partnering' with Russia (see: becoming a puppet state) for self gain, even if it's at the expensive of his own people. We already know Orban doesn't give a fuck about the people.
Look, I'm not happy about this either. I GET why people want to kick Hungary out, but the bottom line is it isn't a smart move and it isn't going to happen because Nato itself already knows this. They aren't stupid. Nothing about this is simple, and there is no one ideal answer or solution. But this is a game of limiting the enemy's options, and giving Hungary the boot from Nato does the exact opposite while ALSO losing physical ground Nato has a presence in.
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You kinda proved my point. Belarus borders Russia, and they still didn't conquer it, it is a puppet, a different entity entirely. Could they conquer Belarus, maybe. With a land invasion. There are no examples of conquest without land invasion.
Not really. Nato has more grounds to actually act within a sovereign member's borders when they are part of Nato, vs zero grounds if they are not. Yes, corruption CAN happen internally even with Nato membership, but it's much more limited and is a far more cautious game than without Nato membership.
With that logic every single country on earth except Russia should be in NATO because that would signal to Russia that it couldn't invade them...
There are more complex ways to pick who should be in NATO than "it's not Russia".
It is not \*always\* beneficial for NATO to accept countries and it does not undermine NATO to kick out countries that don't serve a purpose worth more than the trouble they are causing.
Hungary is simply causing troubles, doesn't have much military force and isn't a territory whose invasion by Russia would cause more than further strengthening of NATO, add together with the chance Russia could actually invade it and it isn't worth it for NATO to have Hungary as a member.
Nato is easy. Because everyone in Europe that isn't Russia should be in Nato.
But Hungary should have it's voice vetoed if they're going to act like a door stop and prevent the entire thing from working by abusing their membership. I think they should be on probation with no voice beyond Nato operations / exercises inside their own borders.
>Nato is easy. Because everyone in Europe that isn't Russia should be in Nato.
Disagree. NATO requires a certain level of trust, interoperability, tech, procedure, policy, intel, and cooperation. We don't want a fox in the hen house.
Turkey is a country you can be certain sides with NATO in war.
Despite everything it does it is always clear that it is a NATO country that will honour its obligations to NATO, there's no doubt who it is allied with.
It's just also going to kick and scream the whole way.
But how is Erdogan going to convince his voters he is a big strong independent man if he just agrees to take the clearly beneficial road *that someone else suggested*, no thank you, it's not worth doing if Erdogan didn't suggest it first.
Sweden has been a naive country in regards to letting suspected terrorists come and live there, and that is a fact. While Turkey is clearly pushing this too far, the request of Sweden doing something about that was fair
Yeah but but will use its position both in NATO and geographical to get the concessions it wants about the terrorist cells and other related problems they have in the southeast. Look at how they handled the Finland and Sweden joining NATO thing. Finland was the most important to contain Russia (I know, containment is an oudated concept from the cold war yadayada) as it was a looooong border with it. But Sweden in part of Erdogan's game, thats why its beeing used as leverage.
Yes and no. Kicking a country out of Nato means Nato loses the ability to have a presence inside that country which directly works against the entire point of Nato existing to prevent Russia from posing an invasion threat / acts as a nuclear deterrent. Nato exists as a nuclear deterrent that doesn't require every Nato member to HAVE nukes for that deterrent.
Case and point, Ukraine wouldn't have been invaded if she was in Nato, and / or if she hadn't been forced to give up her nukes. She was left wide open with no deterrent, and now here we are.
Nato is more about creating nuclear deterrent zones by association within the pact, than anything else. It's literally the core mission statement. Trust does play some part, but it's a significantly smaller role in that it is the pact itself that means ANY attack on ANY Nato country = ALL of Nato is involved, so even if we don't like one of the Nato allies, the pact remains.
What needs to change is the influence layout. If a country is very clearly abusing their voice within the Nato forum and hindering the core mission of Nato, then they don't deserve to have a voice. Hungary is a prime example. And frankly, there's plenty of room to have a country in Nato with limited privileges like access to intelligence as well, if they can't be trusted. They can maintain their nuclear deterrent privilege by way of simply being a member, but that doesn't mean we need to include them in anything beyond that if they have proven to be untrustworthy with sensitive matters, so, cut it down to "we will protect you if you're attacked but we will not involve you unless you're attacked."
You make good points, but the benefits of being in nato and eu should be used as a lever to maintain some level of cooperation. We all don't have to agree on everything but we do have to support the greater association in some minimal level.
Hungary has not met the minimum for a while now. Slowing aid that is hurting the nation which nato was founded to counter is working against nato's mission.
That's why I'm saying they get a reduced role in Nato specifically. It keeps the element in place that adds to the greater security for all Nato countries as a whole (one less country that poses a nuclear risk) but don't get to have a negative affect on the functionality of Nato and the membership of new countries wanting to enter. Or slow aid. That's the entire point. If they're slowing aid and membership entry to the detriment of the test of Nato, then put them on mute with zero voice until they meet some standards to participate again, but keep them in as members to maintain the border security and buffer against Russian attacks / invasion.
With the EU, though, absolutely kick them out. That IS an entity that requires participation to even work, let alone consensus.
Nato and the EU serve two VERY different functions. You can have someone in Nato and not give them privileges of any influence. Them *leaving* Nato doesn't benefit them, either, so even if they throw a fit and get mad, all leaving would even do at that point is put *themselves* at risk far more than the Nato allies.
>has not met the minimum for a while now
Honestly, this should genuinely be standard for groups without easy ways to remove members: we cant kick you out, but you have to keep meeting the minimum entry standard or else we'll freeze your membership (cant decide shit but still recieves help) until you meet that standard again.
And that shouldnt be veto-able by anyone. If half the group thinks you arent meeting the agreed minimum your membership gets frozen.
Or something. Having 1 or 2 countries keep the whole group back is fucking dumb.
>1 or 2 countries keep the whole group back
Yup. That comes from the uncertain, but fairly simple cold war era, when Russia maintained its massive (however brittle) imperium, and did not involve that much in undermining Western and pro-Western democracies from isnide.
We provided access to their most important military bases during the Kosovo war. Then participated in KFOR. Then Afganisztan and Iraq logistics support.
These questions are disrespectful for all the Hungarian soldiers who gave their life protecting NATO, and all the effort we gave even when we werent in NATO.
Screw those politicians, they come and go.
The only thing disrespectful in all this is seeing Orban act like a fucking traitor clown in the open for all to see, and that Hungarians saw fit to have him re-elected. You guys obviously see something in him that you like. So please thank your soldiers for their services in the past. But look at the present situation; if Russia does one day attack a NATO country, do you really think your government is going to be lining up to send troops to fight russia, when it's pretty obvious which side Hungary is on? I guarantee the "all for one" agreement NATO has will be put to the test the day Hungary is asked to send troops to fight russia.
Hungary is a stain on the EU and NATO. Bend over, spread yourself, and accept it. You look foolish trying to justify it.
He is a disrespectful stain.
Please help us get rid of him. Article 7 for starters, and complete stop of funding.
Because we cannot get rid of him. We said it so many times and so many ways.
> Screw those politicians,
If you're Hungarian, your politicians are YOUR responsibility. Your current government is a problem and it's not "disrespectful for all the Hungarian soldiers" to point it out and impose consequences. There is no trading on this; it's disrespectful to NATO's mission to act like membership requirements are negotiable this way.
There are about 9 million reasons for Hungary to be in the EU & NATO - the Hungarian people. The leadership of the country doesn't define the people.
We can't define an entire country based on their leadership. And I know, I know, they voted for him and what not, but does anyone here really know anything about internal Hungarian politics, why he got and keeps getting elected? What the alternatives are? Because I know fuck all, and I consider myself a bit of a political junky
What about the internet? That's not controlled by orban so all Hungarians still have access to all the same information everyone else does.
Imo there comes a point where you need to take drastic measures to effect change and not just leave things to "hope".
Hungarians have the lowest foreign-language proficiency in Europe, mainly because of how different their language is from everyone else's. Apart from Budapest (which votes anti-Orban), the country is also underdeveloped and provincial. And it's been stuck in financial malaise for decades, while neighbours like Poland, Czechia and lately Romania boomed and are doing way better. Take a city like Györ - it's in western Hungary close to Vienna and Bratislava, so it should be thriving and growing like they are, but it's just sleepy and dead. Like Russia, Hungary never got over the loss of its empire, and a lot of people there would rather look backwards than forwards.
Sounds more like Stockholm Syndrome. Siding with their oppressors (Soviet Union) and their collaborating government leaders who are holding them back while suckling off the teats of the EU and NATO.
In that case they fail to pass the minimum requirements to be in the EU. Either they are a democracy and he represents the people’s voice, or they aren’t and he is a dictator and the EU should take action. NATO I don’t think has those requirements so different story.
At some point, we have to define the people based on the leadership. Orban has won every election since 1998, apart from a single one in 2006. That is he lost one election in a quarter of a century.
If you ask any Hungarian their opinion on Ukraine the answer will be “their corrupt “, this is how brainwashed they are just as Russians are. I guess it’s the excuse to let Russia perform genocide and steal from the Ukrainians. Fuck Hungry and Russia! Fuck Orban the Fat Ass corrupt fascist.
I'm sure there is some internal knuckle rapping, but the EU is democratic and you can't just say, "you don't get to vote on this" that goes against democracy.
Actually they can and do if they believe you're breaking one of their rules. Poland has lost approx €75 billion in funding for changes.to it's judiciary. It was also about to lose it's voting rights if the PIS party stayed in power.
Actually, 33 percent voted Fidesz, 33 to other parties, 34 percent did not vote.
Since 2010 Orban changed the system of counting the votes several times, they just did it again, 5 months before the local elections.
So actually not the majority voted. They gerrinandering and get 2/3 of Parliament seats with less than 50% of the votes.
And what are the people of Hungary doing about this attack on their democracy?
This question applies to all western democratic nations, not just Hungary.
I, personally try to educate the people I know they are Fidesz voters, raised a son, he will first vote next year, and raising two more, becoming voters later. ;)
While it's true that you can't define a people by their leadership, the people are responsible for the actions of their leadership.
If they were so against the way he acts, they would get rid of him. Even going as far as assassinating him if that's what it takes to depose a dictator.
*All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.*
One of the reasons he's got support is because he's buying votes by (for instance) financing rural supermarkets that would go belly up otherwise due to insufficient demand. Hungarian economy is a wasteland because nobody can compete with government cash. He's been creating a demand for himself in a similar manner as for instance Putin and Berlusconi did; controlling the media and paying for things that should not need govt buy-in in a healthy economy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy feeding or seeding the populist vote. Meanwhile he's blaming EU that things are so terrible; he can leave if he's so unhappy about it.
That's the thing with democracy, yeah we can.
Democratic countries are responsible for the leaders they choose. Because they become the ones who speak in the name of the whole country.
The why's and how's are not as important what's the fact that Hungarian people knew perfectly well who this bastard was... And they choose to re-elect him.
The saddest thing in this whole Bulgarian rigmarole is that they never ever belonged in the EU in the first place. Admitting them was an act of leniency in the hopes that that would protect them from Russia and integrate them into the Western world.
Mother goose action without its reward, uh?
Now they are throwing that generosity in our faces. And making Ukrainian people die and suffer with their protein supporting policies.
The undeserving blocking in the path of the more deserving. Disgusting.
"the fact that Hungarian people knew perfectly well who this bastard was... And they choose to re-elect him."
For the average, under-educated Hungarian voter, he's Odin (the one who saved us from the ice giants): Orban controls the media (the vast majority of television channels, newspapers, radio, news websites), and consquently, he controls the narrative. In his narrative, Hungary is under constant attack by the USA, Brussels (not the EU, as Hungarians mostly like the idea of the EU), Soros, the Ukrainians, the migrants and any other straw man of the week. The independent press is fighting for survival, but it is near impossible to compete against the government funded brainwashing machine that is largely fueled by the EU money.
In the totalitarian system, everyone in his or her own way is both a victim and a supporter of the system. Vaclav Havel
Individuals confirm the system fulfil the system make the system, are the system. Havel
A single individual speaking the truth can bring down a tyranny. Solzenitsin
The word "courage" should be reserved to characterize the man or woman, who is leaving the infantile sanctuary of the mass mind. Sam Keen Fire in the Belly
The vast majority of Hungarians are cowards at best and complicit to the autocratic bastard in Budapest at worst.
They are all responsible by association with this regime, and some are guilty by association by helping this clown to rob the masses in Hungary blank.
Yes, of course, there is a lot of propaganda, and still, an autocracy needs help from the people and their support to stay in power.
If the Hungarians are so much against Orban, then I have the same question that I ask the cowardly Russian masses.
Why conform with this system then without any major regular protests.
This is too easy of an exit for the Hungarians their silence is complicity. And their silence is deafening.
They watched Orban in the past 25 years to take away their freedom and civil rights one by one. Worse even millions of them aided him as TV anchors, journalists, judges, bureaucrats and old people with meager salaries.
They could have used their brain and learned how to think instead of being told what to think.
True ignorance is not the lack of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it. Popper
They chose ignorance because the other way is hard and tough. It would have required to organize and to get involved in politics risk their careers risk their jobs to fight back against the criminal in Budapest.
We cannot excuse the silence of Russians, and we cannot pardon the Hungarians for their own silence.
It isn't the first time in its history that Hungary has sided with tyrants.
The same political culture of not speaking out, ducking away etc. has brought the Russians into the fold of their dictatorship.
The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. Plato
Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you.” Perikles
Excluded are those Hungarians that left Hungary and the children.
All others won't get a pass, and that's more than half of them.
Democracy is not a system it is a culture it is based on habits, attitudes, long-established divisions of power, ingrained belief in the law, absence of systemic corruption, systematic lies, and cynicism
You can import a system you cannot import a culture
Andrew Marr, A history of the world
We tried to help Hungary to foster a democratic culture.
Its people seem unwilling to do so.
If they want to be a part of Europe, then the people can organize and collaborate to make sure this clown is removed from office.
That won't be enough of course the trust between Hungary and the rest of Europe is broken it will take a long time to repair it.
I once liked to make holidays there from time to time. I would never consider bringing them any money let alone make my holidays in this place where paternalism, etatism and conservative stability are the core values.
I wish I could move them further east to their Russian overlords. I would trade Ukraine any day for this treacherous Orban snake.
Orban should be trialed when the war is over for his treasonous stance on Russia. But he won't be cause the Hungarians don't seem to see much of an issue with the way their leader is betraying the Union.
Their hyperconformity and their lack of moral courage are cowardly.
I want to see these millions of Hungarians who are against Orban to do something against him.
This isn't Russia, Orban is not a dictator and could be removed from his office just like PIS was removed from office.
Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.
How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again, truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.
I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems that conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense.
Alan Moore, V for Vendetta
I think it would be a fair trade. Hungary can get out. Reapply and then have to meet standards they couldn't even meet now.
If you can't play a part on the team, you can't be on the team. Literally do they even contribute anything? All I ever see is Hungary kicking its feet and being an economic drain with zero positive input.
1000% agreed. The fact that it's hard to get in but that they can fuck off doing what they want after the fact with little consequence just defeats the entire purpose of meeting requirements for getting in to begin with.
Ukraine, same as Russia, is not far away to be a third world country (in my opinion).
As an Austrian with Serbian roots, I would gladly accept Kosovo as an independent Nation into the European Union right now, because it is much more nearer to meet EU standards than Ukraine or Russia does. Every poor Balkan country is more ready to join the EU than Ukraine.
Ukraine is at least decades away from joining the European Union, every other scenario would be dystopian for the EU. Even Hungary with a dictator like Orban fits more in the EU than Ukraine. May they be an economic drain in some views, but no way thats comparable with Ukraine.
I do not know where this BS stems from, but I heard it to many times on- and offline from, how it seems, less-educated people. It seems that Ukrainian propaganda became almost the same silly and ridiculous as Russian propaganda is.
Would I've been you, I would start to read about the infrastructure, economy and political systems in the EASTERN parts of the EU to get a picture how FAR away Ukraine and Russia are from meeting this standards.
They're also pretty busy fighting a fucking war in case you haven't been paying attention! They're not asking to join - they're asking to start the negotiation process to join.
To be fair, I don't think Ukraine joining the EU right now is a great idea.
The EU first needs to get it's shit together and while I wish for Ukraine to get shitloads more of weaponry and while I'm all pro more funds for the Ukraine, another impoverished country with still a lot of corruption problems joining the EU isn't helping.
Kick out Hungary and use those billions to rebuild Ukraine and then have another talk and assessment.
I still like the question because, even though there are plenty of reasons to be wary of Ukranian membership, almost every single one of them can also be applied to Hungary.
EU and its institutions must be reconstructed, partly in the lessons Orbán teached the community. But this knowledge of weak spots is crucial for the upcoming members, because Ukraine and Balkan countries are far from strongholds of democracy and rule of law. Democracy in Hungary at the moment of accession had cracks but relatively in a good shape, all pro-EU and cooperative. It took some time but the situation is the opposite now, and the EU has no sharp tools to counter this against member states. If someone is in, it is in, and no way to force them out, and even one member can block the decision-making.
"...has no sharp tools to counter this against member states. If someone is in, it is in, and no way to force them out, and even one member can block the decision-making."
For a moment there I thought we had wandered off in to a UN security council discussion.
To be fair, it is a superior method. If the EU have to switch to mayority voting, it will be less democratic and will have less authority. I would be happy if we could solve our issues through diplomacy and compomise, but it is a fragile and maybe idealistic principle.
**Right now?** Just like NATO isn't going to add Ukraine until the war ends: Defense clause with a lot of nasty implications if a country at war is added.
Exactly what i think!
As much as i stand by Ukraine, i don’t think its a good idea at the time when the country is at war.
I feel like it could mean a possible negative outcomes for other EU countries that way, so it would increase the chances that it would bring the war with them to the other countries in EU too.
And i would feel the same if it was any other country.
Now if there wasn’t war going on or once it gets over i would really like to see them in EU
The best thing we can do is full throttle support, we can do better, but hurrying the accession is going to cause a lot of headache now and later.
I seriously dislike the guilting strategy Ukraine is using for this.
There is no defence clause in the EU.
There is a "do whatever you feel like you should be doing" clause that a lot of people mistake as a defence clause though.
Austria is in the EU, just like Sweden and Finland has been long before they stopped being neutral, none of which would have joined if there was any binding military commitments to other nations in it.
"Everything they could" Not whatever they feel they should. This is a clause on defense, no matter what you say.
"I can't move the army" isn't going to be an excuse that works well in the EU where nobody is at war basically. I'm pretty sure EU member would feel a turning point if ruzzia was okay attacking a member.
yeah no, that isn't legalize for "declaring war on the attacker".
Austria just simply would not have joined if it considered EU a militarily binding alliance.
The clause is left purposely vague exactly so that neutral countries would be able to join and say they don't interpret the clause the same way as someone else.
There are no binding or specific texts in the EU that determines what a country "can" do, it is left for each country to decide what they "can" do which is why any lawyer will tell you the same definition I gave you.
the 1 reason orban has why ukraine shouldnt be a part of nato or the eu is that they didnt bribe him with anything. give him more then what putin is offering and watch how fast he switches sides. orban is only loyal to money
I'm all for Ukraine joining the EU, but realistically there are quite a few reasons for Ukraine not joining the EU.
The better argument would be "let me tell you why there are more and better arguments for Ukraine joining."
Simple : Ukraine does not fullfil any economic condition to enter the EU (and is far from it with the enourmous debt that the war is causing). This alone won't let Ukraine enter before a LONG time (unless some specific rules are made just for Ukraine but I think this is unlikely)
The criteria are the following :
1. Price stability: the inflation rate of a given Member state must not exceed by more than 1.5 point that of the three best performing Member states in terms of price stability
2. Government finance:
a. The annual government deficit must not exceed 3% of GDP.
b. Government debt must not exceed 60% of GDP.
3. Exchange rate: Applicant countries must not devaluate their currency; this was made obsolete with the switch to the euro for countries in the euro zone. Moreover, the Member state must have participated in the exchange-rate mechanism under the European Monetary System (EMS) for two consecutive years before the examination, without severe tensions.
4. Long-term interest rates: they must not be more than 2% higher than those of the three best performing Member states in terms of price stability.
Orban is a different problem tough
Corruption, oligarchs, monopolies, failure to bring national law into line with European Union standards, bad diplomatic relations with Hungary Slovakia or Poland and many more, but this only means that there is still a lot of work to be done in front of the Ukrainians, but on the other hand everything is in your hands.
At first I thought you meant corruption in your own Hungary, but then I realized you mean corruption within the EU itself. So you wish your Hungary weren't part of the EU either. I suspect that deep in your heart, you--like your Orban--wish the 1920 Trianon treaty were undone, and Greater Hungary restored. Sorry, though--you won't get Zakarpattia. Or southern Slovakia, or Transylvania, or Vojvodina either. Dream on.
Here, how about this, Kick Hungary out and let Ukraine in... easy peasy
Orban can't enjoy the benefits of membership in the EU and be Putin’s bitch at the same time. Hungary is welcome back after they sort out their leadership problems.
Well that's a bit a stretch, but EU setting stricter control over oligarchs and control can very much endanger Orbán's network of friends (see e.g. https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor-orban-battle-eu-funds-reveal-existential-clash/) . Maybe this is what makes him stick to status quo.
Aside of being Putin's asset, ofc.
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>I think I am right [in saying this] and I made it clear to him that he has no reason to block Ukraine's membership of the European Union. I asked him to give me just one reason. Not three, not five, not ten, just one reason, and I'm waiting for an answer."
Orban doesn't function well when his puppet master isn't feeding him soundbites
I guarantee Ukraine will be let into the EU after the war is over. Under article 42(7) of the Treaty of the European Union, all EU states are obliged to defend a member that has been attacked. It's the same reason that NATO hasn't brought Ukraine in either. NATO going to war with Russia AUTOMATIC SUICIDE. The nukes will fly, and humanity rips itself a new butthole.
Fortunately, the West is willing to give Ukraine the weapons it needs. (Again, we are literally dancing around being nuked, so we can't give them what they want) Unfortunately, it will be Ukranian blood that will have to be spent to maintain Ukranian independence. We love you, and we want you to succeed, but we are not YET willing to die for you. Hey, if you are lucky, Russians will give us that reason by themselves, until then you will have to win this yourselves.
Remember this. However, we will make the martial plan look like nothing when we rebuild Ukraine. Kyiv will look like New York by the time we are finished. The average Ukranian child will be morbidly obese and heart disease will be as common as Vodka.
He will have no issue finding one. It won't be a good one, but these fascists are experts at soon and coming up with bullshit like this. It's the only thing they do very well.
The core problem here is the EU requirement of consensus. Hungary is the problem child today, who knows who it could be in 5 or 10 years time. Could the EU instead operate on a super majority basis, e.g. 70% of member countries need to agree on questions like admission of a new member state. Yes I know this would require changing the current voting rules.
Be careful Zelensky, he might pull a Lukashenko on you.
Zelensky: Give me one reason why Ukraine shouldn't be in the EU.
Orbán: I can easily give up to 8 reasons.
Zelensky: Okay...? Go ahead.
Orbán: I just did.
Have some more lángos Orbán. Your country borders Ukraine and you haven't done a thing to be a team player. He needs to decide if he wants to be part of Europe or Russia.
Orban , the puppet of Putin , and those Russian loving Hungarians who “ voted” for him can go f’ck themselves. They obviously don’t want independence from Moscow !
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Will Hungarians reconsider their support for Orban as the prospect of potential EU and NATO expulsion looms due to his treasonous actions? Or are they ready for the russki mir?
They already had the opportunity to reconsider their support for Orban, they still elected him as the PM during the invasion.
Hungary doesn’t have free and fair elections, they are being squeezed by an autocrat whose grip on power tightens every year.
Unbelievable that the EU allows this
They dont allow it but they shot themselves in the foot with stupid laws which prevent them from kicking them out.
They can be suspended. Just need votes of all other EU countries.
Yeah. Slovakia fucked ut up right before poland found their brains again. So good luck with that.
They're not stupid laws, it's the fucking charter for joining the EU. Stop being stupid
What country would join a union that can behead its gov't and sovereignty? lol some people are so ridiculous in how they expect stuff to work.
What was made can be unmade.
the EU isn't "swallowing" it smh. the EU is a complex organization built on mutual agreement and even if everyone can agree on a course of action it can't just up and kick a country out or force them to do whatever it wants. Nor should they want to. They're using the mechanisms built into EU law to try and force Orban to reverse a lot of the more egregious antidemocratic reforms he's enacted over the years, but this is by necessity a slow and incomplete process. The EU can't just directly force a country to totally change its political system, and that's by design. Imagine trying to pitch a European Union that had that kind of coercive force to member states, nobody would have gotten on board.
I mean, that is pretty much a description of why many ordinary people voted Brexit. The EU creates red tape for countries that voluntarily agree or ignore. The UK got fed up doing stuff that everyone else ignored.
the UK left the EU because some rich assholes bought a bunch of facebook data and used it to peddle borderline conspiracy misinformation about the EU to boomers. The UK actually had an exceptionally sweet deal vis a vis the EU and quality of life in the UK has decreased somewhat since all the EU "red tape" has disappeared.
I don't disagree. But it was an easy political battle to convince people of, for the exact reason I said. I'll give you an example: an EU wide ban on smoking in restaurants. I agreed with this. Smokers hated standing out in the rain (there were not even shelters when this first started). Yet for years, this was not enforced anywhere else, and the people went on holiday, or business trips, and saw this. I work for a German business and frequently travel to Germany. As a non-smoker, I hated that every restaurant was allowed to register as a smoking club. Smokers hated the fact that only the UK was being true to the spirit of the law. I am not saying people voted Brexit because of the lack of fair enforcement of an indoor smoking ban, I'm saying that there was a huge under current of disgruntled working-income people who were easy to play to.
The election was rigged
They won't be expelled from Nato. That defeats the purpose of Nato (but I do think their voice needs to be removed on any Nato affairs that aren't exercises and affairs happening inside Hungarian borders)
How does that defeat the purpose of NATO?
Because the entire core reason Nato exists is that Nato membership serves as a buffer to a Russian threat. Countries that don't have nuclear capabilities are protected under the collective assurances provided by the rest of Nato, which means any member can't be invaded or attacked by Russia without triggering a response from ALL of Nato. All kicking someone out entirely does is create a territory Russia can invade and Nato has no ground to stand on with getting involved where Russia can't simply point and scream "See, see! They're the instigator!" Which is PRECISELY why Ukraine has been invaded. If Ukraine had been in Nato already, this wouldn't have happened. Nuclear disarmament with no Nato membership to fall back on means all Ukraine had was a flimsy IOU from the west and *now the consequences of that, and the bureaucratic hesitancy of the west has let this war and genocide happen.* Nato membership isn't about a giant friendship circle holding hands where everyone agrees on every policy. It's not the EU either where trade is a huge aspect. It's not the UN where a forum for policy debate is intended to exist. It is strictly a mutual collective assurance pact that prevents Russia from invading and / or attacking any Nato members without triggering a full scale third world war. What ISN'T necessary for Nato to function and still retain its nuclear deterrent without losing any foothold on land is to tell Hungary to kick rocks and they don't get to have a VOICE in any decisions that aren't strictly Nato activities happening inside Hungary's own borders. Kicking them out does nothing but signal to Russia that they are fair game, and simply creates a vacuum for a VERY real Russian asset further into Europe. It's a reactive and idiotic move that puts the rest of Europe that much more at risk. Orban is stupid and an asshole but his "friendly terms" with Russia only exists so long as Russia isn't an actual threat to him. Take away Nato and even Orban isn't stupid enough to think that's a good idea. But he's betting on Nato not cutting his voice out at the table, and he knows Nato won't kick Hungary out. If Nato silences his voice at the table, though, he loses all his influence and then has to be solely responsible for handing Hungary to Putin because he will CHOOSE to leave Nato or not. Which he won't. And if he does, the people will not be happy. There's better strategy available here. Now, as for the EU, THAT we can stand to kick members out for being bad faith players because the EU isn't a strongly military oriented deterrent, and Nato membership supplements that deyereant strategy on its own. So, cut the vocal cords, cut off the EU economic benefits, but keep your hold on the miliary asset side of having Nato activity and assurances inside Hungary. He has NOTHING to leverage if we do that. It's simply suicide for him from there.
> Countries that don't have nuclear capabilities are protected under the collective assurances provided by the rest of Nato, which means any member can't be invaded or attacked by Russia without triggering a response from ALL of Nato. All kicking someone out entirely does is create a territory Russia can invade... Just curious what path Russia would take to conquer Hungary? Does it involve going through the center of the Earth?
(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ There are more ways to conquer a country than a direct conventional land invasion. ✧ﾟ･: *ヽ(◕ヮ◕ヽ)
Any that you think Russia could pull off? Any you could name, even?
Yes. Russia pours billions into opportunistic shit stirring and injecting corrupt officials into other countries for a reason. They literally did it in Ukraine ffs. Everything leading up to the 2014 invasion started with precisely this tactic. [Yanukovych was a puppet of Russian interests](https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/viktor-yanukovych-yanukovich-putin-put-back-in-power-ukraine-russia/) and he allowed Russia to renew its lease on naval bases in Crimea and signed a deal that made Ukraine more dependant on Russian gas, then turned around when Yanukovych was moving to sign a deal with the EU and applied economic pressure by cutting off Russian energy supply to Ukraine and blocking imports, so Yanukovych turned around and chose not to sign the deal with the EU. He accepted Russian financial backing, instead, which only furthered Russia's grip within Ukraine's sovereignty. His dealings with Russia enabled them to inject a shitload of military resources into Crimea, and 2hen Yanukovych was ousted, and pro-Russian groups were starting shit in the power vacuum, Putin made his move on Crimea. Putin intends to reinstate him if Ukraine is successfully taken over. He's hiding in Belarus right now. The military action in Crimea was one thing, and couldn't have happened without first injecting Russian influence and puppets into Ukraine's government to begin with. That is where this shit starts, and it doesn't necessarily even require a blatant military invasion. With enough of an internal foothold, it's significantly easier to quietly move people into "allied" countries, begin dismantling protective policy, create a significant dependence on Russian trade, use that dependency as powerful leverage to pressure those nations to do as they're *told*, destabilize them internally, and it opens the door to slowly transporting military assets in (not via a giant land invasion display like what happened on Feb 24th, but more quietly and legally like what happened in Crimea), and doing that doesn't require much. Hell, if Russia takes Ukraine, they'll even have a direct land access to Hungary so this is quite literally where this shit starts. Russia has for decades used the injection of Russian nationals into other sovereign countries as a tactic for taking over from the inside, and non-Nato countries present a much more viable target because Nato itself complicates this, but if they have no influence on a non-members state, it's that much less Putin needs to maneuver around. Hungary doesn't need a direct invasion. It just needs to open its borders to Russian assets moving in and that starts a domino effect that doesn't end well for anyone but Russia. This is THE strategy Russia's playbook has as #1. They also intervened on Syria to protect their own interests and put pressure on the west to negotiate as they backed the opposition inside Syria and that threatened to lose Russia another ally and further complicate their relations in the middle east. Russian intervention alongside partnership with Iranian and Turk forces forced 4 de-escalation zones in Syrian territory that removed fighting on multiple fronts in these areas and enabled the Assad Russian-Iranian backed government to begin strategically taking opposition held area one by one. Russia successfully kept the Syrian government in place, eliminated the opposition forces (thus weakening western holds in the middle east), this caused other middle eastern countries to turn and strengthen relations with Moscow as the US/west pulled out of the region, and while Russia doesn't have as much influence as the west, still, it's a vital area to have a foothold in. Russia didn't need to start with an invasion because they already had a partnership with Assad, so it ALWAYS starts there: on a political front. And might I introduce you to a little known exotic land called Belarus? They might be next to Russia but Russia hardly needs to life a finger there anyways. Hoenstly there's a wide enough history of this shit I shouldn't need to hold people's hands through it. And I *don't* need to. [Plenty of reputable sources lay these things out very well for the uninformed.](https://kyivindependent.com/before-ukraine-there-was-georgia-how-russia-recycles-its-2008-playbook/) There us a REASON Nato hasn't kicked a member state out even if that member state fucking sucks, and it's precisely as I said: removing a Nato member only weakens the integrity of, and core function of Nato, and leaves a much wider opening for Russian influence and becoming a puppet state. So long as Hungary is part of Nato, that game has to be played a lot more cautiously because there are far more political "landmines" they have to maneuver around avoid triggering a Nato conflict. It limits their options. If you remove Nato from the picture, that leaves the door wide open in ways that simply aren't viable *with* Nato membership. It's a risk-reward balancing act. Russia uses a divide and destabilize strategy, and that gets even easier if there is no Nato membership. It also means said country is that much more vulnerable to their own leader 'partnering' with Russia (see: becoming a puppet state) for self gain, even if it's at the expensive of his own people. We already know Orban doesn't give a fuck about the people. Look, I'm not happy about this either. I GET why people want to kick Hungary out, but the bottom line is it isn't a smart move and it isn't going to happen because Nato itself already knows this. They aren't stupid. Nothing about this is simple, and there is no one ideal answer or solution. But this is a game of limiting the enemy's options, and giving Hungary the boot from Nato does the exact opposite while ALSO losing physical ground Nato has a presence in.
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You kinda proved my point. Belarus borders Russia, and they still didn't conquer it, it is a puppet, a different entity entirely. Could they conquer Belarus, maybe. With a land invasion. There are no examples of conquest without land invasion.
Like politically, which isn't stopped by NATO but instead creates an internal threat in NATO that NATO can only deal with by kicking out the country.
Not really. Nato has more grounds to actually act within a sovereign member's borders when they are part of Nato, vs zero grounds if they are not. Yes, corruption CAN happen internally even with Nato membership, but it's much more limited and is a far more cautious game than without Nato membership.
Yes, really. Where in the fuck in the NATO treaty do you find grounds for NATO to act against the elected government in one of its members???
With that logic every single country on earth except Russia should be in NATO because that would signal to Russia that it couldn't invade them... There are more complex ways to pick who should be in NATO than "it's not Russia". It is not \*always\* beneficial for NATO to accept countries and it does not undermine NATO to kick out countries that don't serve a purpose worth more than the trouble they are causing. Hungary is simply causing troubles, doesn't have much military force and isn't a territory whose invasion by Russia would cause more than further strengthening of NATO, add together with the chance Russia could actually invade it and it isn't worth it for NATO to have Hungary as a member.
it doesn't, people on this sub say really stupid shit sometimes.
Give me one reason WHY hungary SHOULD be in the EU.
or in NATO.
Nato is easy. Because everyone in Europe that isn't Russia should be in Nato. But Hungary should have it's voice vetoed if they're going to act like a door stop and prevent the entire thing from working by abusing their membership. I think they should be on probation with no voice beyond Nato operations / exercises inside their own borders.
>Nato is easy. Because everyone in Europe that isn't Russia should be in Nato. Disagree. NATO requires a certain level of trust, interoperability, tech, procedure, policy, intel, and cooperation. We don't want a fox in the hen house.
Turkey is foxy enough
Foxy enough to shoot down a Russian jet when it entered their airspace. There's a bit of good with the bad.
Turkey at least falls in line when it really comes down to it
Turkey is a country you can be certain sides with NATO in war. Despite everything it does it is always clear that it is a NATO country that will honour its obligations to NATO, there's no doubt who it is allied with. It's just also going to kick and scream the whole way.
[удалено]
But how is Erdogan going to convince his voters he is a big strong independent man if he just agrees to take the clearly beneficial road *that someone else suggested*, no thank you, it's not worth doing if Erdogan didn't suggest it first.
Sweden has been a naive country in regards to letting suspected terrorists come and live there, and that is a fact. While Turkey is clearly pushing this too far, the request of Sweden doing something about that was fair
Anything you could point me too that wouldn’t be too biased to take anything from?
Yeah but but will use its position both in NATO and geographical to get the concessions it wants about the terrorist cells and other related problems they have in the southeast. Look at how they handled the Finland and Sweden joining NATO thing. Finland was the most important to contain Russia (I know, containment is an oudated concept from the cold war yadayada) as it was a looooong border with it. But Sweden in part of Erdogan's game, thats why its beeing used as leverage.
The Hungary might eat Turkey.
Yes and no. Kicking a country out of Nato means Nato loses the ability to have a presence inside that country which directly works against the entire point of Nato existing to prevent Russia from posing an invasion threat / acts as a nuclear deterrent. Nato exists as a nuclear deterrent that doesn't require every Nato member to HAVE nukes for that deterrent. Case and point, Ukraine wouldn't have been invaded if she was in Nato, and / or if she hadn't been forced to give up her nukes. She was left wide open with no deterrent, and now here we are. Nato is more about creating nuclear deterrent zones by association within the pact, than anything else. It's literally the core mission statement. Trust does play some part, but it's a significantly smaller role in that it is the pact itself that means ANY attack on ANY Nato country = ALL of Nato is involved, so even if we don't like one of the Nato allies, the pact remains. What needs to change is the influence layout. If a country is very clearly abusing their voice within the Nato forum and hindering the core mission of Nato, then they don't deserve to have a voice. Hungary is a prime example. And frankly, there's plenty of room to have a country in Nato with limited privileges like access to intelligence as well, if they can't be trusted. They can maintain their nuclear deterrent privilege by way of simply being a member, but that doesn't mean we need to include them in anything beyond that if they have proven to be untrustworthy with sensitive matters, so, cut it down to "we will protect you if you're attacked but we will not involve you unless you're attacked."
You make good points, but the benefits of being in nato and eu should be used as a lever to maintain some level of cooperation. We all don't have to agree on everything but we do have to support the greater association in some minimal level. Hungary has not met the minimum for a while now. Slowing aid that is hurting the nation which nato was founded to counter is working against nato's mission.
That's why I'm saying they get a reduced role in Nato specifically. It keeps the element in place that adds to the greater security for all Nato countries as a whole (one less country that poses a nuclear risk) but don't get to have a negative affect on the functionality of Nato and the membership of new countries wanting to enter. Or slow aid. That's the entire point. If they're slowing aid and membership entry to the detriment of the test of Nato, then put them on mute with zero voice until they meet some standards to participate again, but keep them in as members to maintain the border security and buffer against Russian attacks / invasion. With the EU, though, absolutely kick them out. That IS an entity that requires participation to even work, let alone consensus. Nato and the EU serve two VERY different functions. You can have someone in Nato and not give them privileges of any influence. Them *leaving* Nato doesn't benefit them, either, so even if they throw a fit and get mad, all leaving would even do at that point is put *themselves* at risk far more than the Nato allies.
>has not met the minimum for a while now Honestly, this should genuinely be standard for groups without easy ways to remove members: we cant kick you out, but you have to keep meeting the minimum entry standard or else we'll freeze your membership (cant decide shit but still recieves help) until you meet that standard again. And that shouldnt be veto-able by anyone. If half the group thinks you arent meeting the agreed minimum your membership gets frozen. Or something. Having 1 or 2 countries keep the whole group back is fucking dumb.
>1 or 2 countries keep the whole group back Yup. That comes from the uncertain, but fairly simple cold war era, when Russia maintained its massive (however brittle) imperium, and did not involve that much in undermining Western and pro-Western democracies from isnide.
*another fox. Well. Rat.
There should be a treason and treachery clause for a country actively working against the collective interest - which includes Turkey.
We provided access to their most important military bases during the Kosovo war. Then participated in KFOR. Then Afganisztan and Iraq logistics support. These questions are disrespectful for all the Hungarian soldiers who gave their life protecting NATO, and all the effort we gave even when we werent in NATO. Screw those politicians, they come and go.
The only thing disrespectful in all this is seeing Orban act like a fucking traitor clown in the open for all to see, and that Hungarians saw fit to have him re-elected. You guys obviously see something in him that you like. So please thank your soldiers for their services in the past. But look at the present situation; if Russia does one day attack a NATO country, do you really think your government is going to be lining up to send troops to fight russia, when it's pretty obvious which side Hungary is on? I guarantee the "all for one" agreement NATO has will be put to the test the day Hungary is asked to send troops to fight russia. Hungary is a stain on the EU and NATO. Bend over, spread yourself, and accept it. You look foolish trying to justify it.
He is a disrespectful stain. Please help us get rid of him. Article 7 for starters, and complete stop of funding. Because we cannot get rid of him. We said it so many times and so many ways.
>Hungary is a stain on the EU and NATO. Majority of voters did not vote for Orban.
> Screw those politicians, If you're Hungarian, your politicians are YOUR responsibility. Your current government is a problem and it's not "disrespectful for all the Hungarian soldiers" to point it out and impose consequences. There is no trading on this; it's disrespectful to NATO's mission to act like membership requirements are negotiable this way.
There are about 9 million reasons for Hungary to be in the EU & NATO - the Hungarian people. The leadership of the country doesn't define the people. We can't define an entire country based on their leadership. And I know, I know, they voted for him and what not, but does anyone here really know anything about internal Hungarian politics, why he got and keeps getting elected? What the alternatives are? Because I know fuck all, and I consider myself a bit of a political junky
Ya, but who votes in the leadership in a democratic country? The people. So, the people are somewhat responsible for their leaders.
Pretty sure Orban is actually in control of 90% of Hungarys media so he can control the narrative which he uses to push people to vote for him
What about the internet? That's not controlled by orban so all Hungarians still have access to all the same information everyone else does. Imo there comes a point where you need to take drastic measures to effect change and not just leave things to "hope".
Hungarians have the lowest foreign-language proficiency in Europe, mainly because of how different their language is from everyone else's. Apart from Budapest (which votes anti-Orban), the country is also underdeveloped and provincial. And it's been stuck in financial malaise for decades, while neighbours like Poland, Czechia and lately Romania boomed and are doing way better. Take a city like Györ - it's in western Hungary close to Vienna and Bratislava, so it should be thriving and growing like they are, but it's just sleepy and dead. Like Russia, Hungary never got over the loss of its empire, and a lot of people there would rather look backwards than forwards.
Sounds more like Stockholm Syndrome. Siding with their oppressors (Soviet Union) and their collaborating government leaders who are holding them back while suckling off the teats of the EU and NATO.
In that case they fail to pass the minimum requirements to be in the EU. Either they are a democracy and he represents the people’s voice, or they aren’t and he is a dictator and the EU should take action. NATO I don’t think has those requirements so different story.
Still counts
By that logic putin and Kim Jung un are legit... So the logic must be flawed if those are some of the outcomes.
Just because bad people become dictators doesnt make the logic flawed. People are responsible for the leaders they elect or let rule them
At some point, we have to define the people based on the leadership. Orban has won every election since 1998, apart from a single one in 2006. That is he lost one election in a quarter of a century.
If you ask any Hungarian their opinion on Ukraine the answer will be “their corrupt “, this is how brainwashed they are just as Russians are. I guess it’s the excuse to let Russia perform genocide and steal from the Ukrainians. Fuck Hungry and Russia! Fuck Orban the Fat Ass corrupt fascist.
I always assumed that was because of how devilishly handsome he is. (/s if it’s not obvious)
Victor Orban, the man with a smile that can make any girl gay.
And 2002...
I dont understand why there is no procedure to kick or disable a member vote in EU.
I'm sure there is some internal knuckle rapping, but the EU is democratic and you can't just say, "you don't get to vote on this" that goes against democracy.
Actually they can and do if they believe you're breaking one of their rules. Poland has lost approx €75 billion in funding for changes.to it's judiciary. It was also about to lose it's voting rights if the PIS party stayed in power.
Thé issue IS that the vote must be unanimous, which makes a lot of blockades because of a sigle state.
The majority voted. The majority then represents what the country is. This is how elections work.
Actually, 33 percent voted Fidesz, 33 to other parties, 34 percent did not vote. Since 2010 Orban changed the system of counting the votes several times, they just did it again, 5 months before the local elections. So actually not the majority voted. They gerrinandering and get 2/3 of Parliament seats with less than 50% of the votes.
And what are the people of Hungary doing about this attack on their democracy? This question applies to all western democratic nations, not just Hungary.
I, personally try to educate the people I know they are Fidesz voters, raised a son, he will first vote next year, and raising two more, becoming voters later. ;)
Just like German people were punished when there was a leader called Hitler
While it's true that you can't define a people by their leadership, the people are responsible for the actions of their leadership. If they were so against the way he acts, they would get rid of him. Even going as far as assassinating him if that's what it takes to depose a dictator. *All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.*
The people is responsible for his own government, including in dictatorship, even more so in democracies.
One of the reasons he's got support is because he's buying votes by (for instance) financing rural supermarkets that would go belly up otherwise due to insufficient demand. Hungarian economy is a wasteland because nobody can compete with government cash. He's been creating a demand for himself in a similar manner as for instance Putin and Berlusconi did; controlling the media and paying for things that should not need govt buy-in in a healthy economy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy feeding or seeding the populist vote. Meanwhile he's blaming EU that things are so terrible; he can leave if he's so unhappy about it.
Yes we've been hearing the same thing about Russian for about 2 years now
That's the thing with democracy, yeah we can. Democratic countries are responsible for the leaders they choose. Because they become the ones who speak in the name of the whole country. The why's and how's are not as important what's the fact that Hungarian people knew perfectly well who this bastard was... And they choose to re-elect him. The saddest thing in this whole Bulgarian rigmarole is that they never ever belonged in the EU in the first place. Admitting them was an act of leniency in the hopes that that would protect them from Russia and integrate them into the Western world. Mother goose action without its reward, uh? Now they are throwing that generosity in our faces. And making Ukrainian people die and suffer with their protein supporting policies. The undeserving blocking in the path of the more deserving. Disgusting.
"the fact that Hungarian people knew perfectly well who this bastard was... And they choose to re-elect him." For the average, under-educated Hungarian voter, he's Odin (the one who saved us from the ice giants): Orban controls the media (the vast majority of television channels, newspapers, radio, news websites), and consquently, he controls the narrative. In his narrative, Hungary is under constant attack by the USA, Brussels (not the EU, as Hungarians mostly like the idea of the EU), Soros, the Ukrainians, the migrants and any other straw man of the week. The independent press is fighting for survival, but it is near impossible to compete against the government funded brainwashing machine that is largely fueled by the EU money.
How many of those 9 million voted for Orban?
They should stop voting the leadership in then.
People chose this “leadership” again and again, they are part of it.
In the totalitarian system, everyone in his or her own way is both a victim and a supporter of the system. Vaclav Havel Individuals confirm the system fulfil the system make the system, are the system. Havel A single individual speaking the truth can bring down a tyranny. Solzenitsin The word "courage" should be reserved to characterize the man or woman, who is leaving the infantile sanctuary of the mass mind. Sam Keen Fire in the Belly The vast majority of Hungarians are cowards at best and complicit to the autocratic bastard in Budapest at worst. They are all responsible by association with this regime, and some are guilty by association by helping this clown to rob the masses in Hungary blank. Yes, of course, there is a lot of propaganda, and still, an autocracy needs help from the people and their support to stay in power. If the Hungarians are so much against Orban, then I have the same question that I ask the cowardly Russian masses. Why conform with this system then without any major regular protests. This is too easy of an exit for the Hungarians their silence is complicity. And their silence is deafening. They watched Orban in the past 25 years to take away their freedom and civil rights one by one. Worse even millions of them aided him as TV anchors, journalists, judges, bureaucrats and old people with meager salaries. They could have used their brain and learned how to think instead of being told what to think. True ignorance is not the lack of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it. Popper They chose ignorance because the other way is hard and tough. It would have required to organize and to get involved in politics risk their careers risk their jobs to fight back against the criminal in Budapest. We cannot excuse the silence of Russians, and we cannot pardon the Hungarians for their own silence. It isn't the first time in its history that Hungary has sided with tyrants. The same political culture of not speaking out, ducking away etc. has brought the Russians into the fold of their dictatorship. The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. Plato Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you.” Perikles Excluded are those Hungarians that left Hungary and the children. All others won't get a pass, and that's more than half of them. Democracy is not a system it is a culture it is based on habits, attitudes, long-established divisions of power, ingrained belief in the law, absence of systemic corruption, systematic lies, and cynicism You can import a system you cannot import a culture Andrew Marr, A history of the world We tried to help Hungary to foster a democratic culture. Its people seem unwilling to do so. If they want to be a part of Europe, then the people can organize and collaborate to make sure this clown is removed from office. That won't be enough of course the trust between Hungary and the rest of Europe is broken it will take a long time to repair it. I once liked to make holidays there from time to time. I would never consider bringing them any money let alone make my holidays in this place where paternalism, etatism and conservative stability are the core values. I wish I could move them further east to their Russian overlords. I would trade Ukraine any day for this treacherous Orban snake. Orban should be trialed when the war is over for his treasonous stance on Russia. But he won't be cause the Hungarians don't seem to see much of an issue with the way their leader is betraying the Union. Their hyperconformity and their lack of moral courage are cowardly. I want to see these millions of Hungarians who are against Orban to do something against him. This isn't Russia, Orban is not a dictator and could be removed from his office just like PIS was removed from office. Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again, truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems that conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Alan Moore, V for Vendetta
check [telex.hu/english](https://telex.hu/english) if you want to know more about Hungarian internal politics or how the system works there.
Because otherwise russia would be openly in Hungary.
The real question
I’ll give you one eee uhm mmm you know hmm uh. Nope can’t think of any.
Still waiting on Zelenskyy to kick Orban in the nuts....
Orban dosnt even have pussy. ...
He's smooth down there. Like a Ken doll.
Bit insulting to Ken, really…
Ken mound has far more bulge.
Orban doesn't have any nuts to kick
I mean, Orban wants to cosy up to Russia and keeps getting voted in, perhaps a swap could be arranged.
Does he know what happens to putins "friends" in a long or short time? I mean how stupid can people supporting him be
Isn't the whole point that Russia finds little idiots to put on these thrones so they can easily manipulated them?
Ukraine deserves to be in the EU, but Hungary definitely does not
I think it would be a fair trade. Hungary can get out. Reapply and then have to meet standards they couldn't even meet now. If you can't play a part on the team, you can't be on the team. Literally do they even contribute anything? All I ever see is Hungary kicking its feet and being an economic drain with zero positive input.
They should have reviews for all members every 5 years, to see if they still qualify and kick out the dictatorships.
1000% agreed. The fact that it's hard to get in but that they can fuck off doing what they want after the fact with little consequence just defeats the entire purpose of meeting requirements for getting in to begin with.
Ukraine, same as Russia, is not far away to be a third world country (in my opinion). As an Austrian with Serbian roots, I would gladly accept Kosovo as an independent Nation into the European Union right now, because it is much more nearer to meet EU standards than Ukraine or Russia does. Every poor Balkan country is more ready to join the EU than Ukraine. Ukraine is at least decades away from joining the European Union, every other scenario would be dystopian for the EU. Even Hungary with a dictator like Orban fits more in the EU than Ukraine. May they be an economic drain in some views, but no way thats comparable with Ukraine. I do not know where this BS stems from, but I heard it to many times on- and offline from, how it seems, less-educated people. It seems that Ukrainian propaganda became almost the same silly and ridiculous as Russian propaganda is. Would I've been you, I would start to read about the infrastructure, economy and political systems in the EASTERN parts of the EU to get a picture how FAR away Ukraine and Russia are from meeting this standards.
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And they're working on that, FFS! What are you - a broken record?
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That's the plan.
They're also pretty busy fighting a fucking war in case you haven't been paying attention! They're not asking to join - they're asking to start the negotiation process to join.
They're meeting standards during a war that Hungary can't meet suckling off the EU teat without a war. Sounds less corrupt than Hungary to me.
1 reason?... eh, my master Putler doesnt wish so.
Orbán's ruZZian boyfriend says so.
To be fair, I don't think Ukraine joining the EU right now is a great idea. The EU first needs to get it's shit together and while I wish for Ukraine to get shitloads more of weaponry and while I'm all pro more funds for the Ukraine, another impoverished country with still a lot of corruption problems joining the EU isn't helping. Kick out Hungary and use those billions to rebuild Ukraine and then have another talk and assessment.
I still like the question because, even though there are plenty of reasons to be wary of Ukranian membership, almost every single one of them can also be applied to Hungary.
EU and its institutions must be reconstructed, partly in the lessons Orbán teached the community. But this knowledge of weak spots is crucial for the upcoming members, because Ukraine and Balkan countries are far from strongholds of democracy and rule of law. Democracy in Hungary at the moment of accession had cracks but relatively in a good shape, all pro-EU and cooperative. It took some time but the situation is the opposite now, and the EU has no sharp tools to counter this against member states. If someone is in, it is in, and no way to force them out, and even one member can block the decision-making.
"...has no sharp tools to counter this against member states. If someone is in, it is in, and no way to force them out, and even one member can block the decision-making." For a moment there I thought we had wandered off in to a UN security council discussion.
To be fair, it is a superior method. If the EU have to switch to mayority voting, it will be less democratic and will have less authority. I would be happy if we could solve our issues through diplomacy and compomise, but it is a fragile and maybe idealistic principle.
Fair enough.
**Right now?** Just like NATO isn't going to add Ukraine until the war ends: Defense clause with a lot of nasty implications if a country at war is added.
Exactly what i think! As much as i stand by Ukraine, i don’t think its a good idea at the time when the country is at war. I feel like it could mean a possible negative outcomes for other EU countries that way, so it would increase the chances that it would bring the war with them to the other countries in EU too. And i would feel the same if it was any other country. Now if there wasn’t war going on or once it gets over i would really like to see them in EU
The best thing we can do is full throttle support, we can do better, but hurrying the accession is going to cause a lot of headache now and later. I seriously dislike the guilting strategy Ukraine is using for this.
There is no defence clause in the EU. There is a "do whatever you feel like you should be doing" clause that a lot of people mistake as a defence clause though. Austria is in the EU, just like Sweden and Finland has been long before they stopped being neutral, none of which would have joined if there was any binding military commitments to other nations in it.
"Everything they could" Not whatever they feel they should. This is a clause on defense, no matter what you say. "I can't move the army" isn't going to be an excuse that works well in the EU where nobody is at war basically. I'm pretty sure EU member would feel a turning point if ruzzia was okay attacking a member.
yeah no, that isn't legalize for "declaring war on the attacker". Austria just simply would not have joined if it considered EU a militarily binding alliance. The clause is left purposely vague exactly so that neutral countries would be able to join and say they don't interpret the clause the same way as someone else. There are no binding or specific texts in the EU that determines what a country "can" do, it is left for each country to decide what they "can" do which is why any lawyer will tell you the same definition I gave you.
I don't really care that you decide to read it in a arbitrary way that fits what you think of it really.
He can't. Orban is Putin's fat cocksucker, nothing more, nothing less.
the 1 reason orban has why ukraine shouldnt be a part of nato or the eu is that they didnt bribe him with anything. give him more then what putin is offering and watch how fast he switches sides. orban is only loyal to money
The 1 reason is because Orbin is a paid ruZZian shill sellout of his own people
Please trade Ukraine for Hungary, EU
Perfect question. I can give 10 reason why Hungary does not deserve to be member of the EU.
Give us one reason why Hungary should exist. 💥😵
*points to his pocket*
“Keep my EU membership Opinion out of your Fucking mouth” Go get em Zel
I'm all for Ukraine joining the EU, but realistically there are quite a few reasons for Ukraine not joining the EU. The better argument would be "let me tell you why there are more and better arguments for Ukraine joining."
Because I am a wanna be dictator and I suck Putin off regularly. So let me just blackmail the EU. Reason enough?
Simple : Ukraine does not fullfil any economic condition to enter the EU (and is far from it with the enourmous debt that the war is causing). This alone won't let Ukraine enter before a LONG time (unless some specific rules are made just for Ukraine but I think this is unlikely) The criteria are the following : 1. Price stability: the inflation rate of a given Member state must not exceed by more than 1.5 point that of the three best performing Member states in terms of price stability 2. Government finance: a. The annual government deficit must not exceed 3% of GDP. b. Government debt must not exceed 60% of GDP. 3. Exchange rate: Applicant countries must not devaluate their currency; this was made obsolete with the switch to the euro for countries in the euro zone. Moreover, the Member state must have participated in the exchange-rate mechanism under the European Monetary System (EMS) for two consecutive years before the examination, without severe tensions. 4. Long-term interest rates: they must not be more than 2% higher than those of the three best performing Member states in terms of price stability. Orban is a different problem tough
I’m searching for one reason Hungary should be in the EU.
Corruption, oligarchs, monopolies, failure to bring national law into line with European Union standards, bad diplomatic relations with Hungary Slovakia or Poland and many more, but this only means that there is still a lot of work to be done in front of the Ukrainians, but on the other hand everything is in your hands.
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At first I thought you meant corruption in your own Hungary, but then I realized you mean corruption within the EU itself. So you wish your Hungary weren't part of the EU either. I suspect that deep in your heart, you--like your Orban--wish the 1920 Trianon treaty were undone, and Greater Hungary restored. Sorry, though--you won't get Zakarpattia. Or southern Slovakia, or Transylvania, or Vojvodina either. Dream on.
Here, how about this, Kick Hungary out and let Ukraine in... easy peasy Orban can't enjoy the benefits of membership in the EU and be Putin’s bitch at the same time. Hungary is welcome back after they sort out their leadership problems.
Well that's a bit a stretch, but EU setting stricter control over oligarchs and control can very much endanger Orbán's network of friends (see e.g. https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor-orban-battle-eu-funds-reveal-existential-clash/) . Maybe this is what makes him stick to status quo. Aside of being Putin's asset, ofc.
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Because papa putler said so - orban
Orban is a fucking pussy. He won't respond.
Orban is a spineless piece of crap. If he would be powerful leader, he would come out and tell it as it is: “putin commands me”
"My daddy wouldn't be fond of it" - Orbán probably
>I think I am right [in saying this] and I made it clear to him that he has no reason to block Ukraine's membership of the European Union. I asked him to give me just one reason. Not three, not five, not ten, just one reason, and I'm waiting for an answer." Orban doesn't function well when his puppet master isn't feeding him soundbites
"Cuz my fuck buddy Putin sez so!"
I guarantee Ukraine will be let into the EU after the war is over. Under article 42(7) of the Treaty of the European Union, all EU states are obliged to defend a member that has been attacked. It's the same reason that NATO hasn't brought Ukraine in either. NATO going to war with Russia AUTOMATIC SUICIDE. The nukes will fly, and humanity rips itself a new butthole. Fortunately, the West is willing to give Ukraine the weapons it needs. (Again, we are literally dancing around being nuked, so we can't give them what they want) Unfortunately, it will be Ukranian blood that will have to be spent to maintain Ukranian independence. We love you, and we want you to succeed, but we are not YET willing to die for you. Hey, if you are lucky, Russians will give us that reason by themselves, until then you will have to win this yourselves. Remember this. However, we will make the martial plan look like nothing when we rebuild Ukraine. Kyiv will look like New York by the time we are finished. The average Ukranian child will be morbidly obese and heart disease will be as common as Vodka.
Because Putin says so.
He will have no issue finding one. It won't be a good one, but these fascists are experts at soon and coming up with bullshit like this. It's the only thing they do very well.
If Hungarians don't agree with this, then they need to start speaking up. Otherwise, their future is being decided for them.
I got an idea. Hungary and Ukraine swap territories. Everyone happy. /s
Because Orban is pro Putin. Nothing complicated here
“Because daddy Pootan told me so.”
"because it would piss my master off" \~ ORBITCH
“Oi! Orbán! We need to talk.” *Proceeds to have a frank talk with Orbán to tell him what a dick he’s being*
"Because Putin pays me not to and I'm a dirty fucking traitor to democracy and decency" -Orban, probably
The core problem here is the EU requirement of consensus. Hungary is the problem child today, who knows who it could be in 5 or 10 years time. Could the EU instead operate on a super majority basis, e.g. 70% of member countries need to agree on questions like admission of a new member state. Yes I know this would require changing the current voting rules.
"I'm a Russian puppet" is the only answer
Be careful Zelensky, he might pull a Lukashenko on you. Zelensky: Give me one reason why Ukraine shouldn't be in the EU. Orbán: I can easily give up to 8 reasons. Zelensky: Okay...? Go ahead. Orbán: I just did.
Have some more lángos Orbán. Your country borders Ukraine and you haven't done a thing to be a team player. He needs to decide if he wants to be part of Europe or Russia.
Give me a reason for Hungary to stay in the Eu.
Orban , the puppet of Putin , and those Russian loving Hungarians who “ voted” for him can go f’ck themselves. They obviously don’t want independence from Moscow !
F... Hungary out of EU of they object Ukraine ascention, or , better, get rid of that son of a b... oban!