Привіт u/jesterboyd ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday).
**Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting)
**Daily series on Ukraine's history & culture:** [Sunrise Posts Organized By Category](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As a Ukrainian, I would say that there should probably be several things done to decrease corruption:
1) Implement annual personal tax returns, with cross-validation of declarations from multiple sources. This should both increase total taxes collected and reduce tax rates via reduction of tax avoidance.
2) Increase salaries of key government employees to ones equivalent to in developed countries.
3) Allow easier access to key government statistics and information.
4) Decrease interest rates as a monetary policy. Otherwise it is really difficult to beat 15-20% per year risk-free rate without corruption. Opportunity cost is too high due to slow processes (eg approvals of permits etc).
5) Remove/reduce government interventions into economy.
6) Implement an equivalent of 401k in US, instead/in addition to current Ukrainian pension plan which is clearly insufficient and is too expensive for taxpayers and employers.
Parts 4 and 5, are not compatible with war unfortunately(due to risk of hyperinflation), but 1, 2, 3, and 6, I think, can be easily implemented.
Parts 1 and 6 are required but not exhaustive for part 2.
In Australia there is a government office known as the "independent commissioner against corruption". It is their job to follow up on complaints of corruption within government and where evidence is found, take it through the criminal system. You need areas of the government that investigate areas they are not connected too. There has been corruption found in the last few years, though on the whole Australia is not considered a corrupt country. Having these systems in place is how you keep corruption to a minimum. It also also worth remembering corruption never entirely goes away. While Ukraine is going through such change as now, it would be worth considering starting up something similar.
I do wonder what it will look like after the war with so much money coming in to the country to re-build it. The law and the checks and balances that building work and contracts are executed properly will be very important. There will be lots of money changing hands, and there will be opportunity for companies that do the work to make fair and good money. But it is Ukraine's interest to make sure corruption is found and removed, that the rebuild happens properly as it should for the Ukrainian people and that fair payment for fair work is the order of the day so that people understand they can live a good life doing the right things and do not need to resort to corruption. I understand there is history that contracts are paid, and then dont happen. Or are done to low quality with the wrong goods. There needs to be proper guarantees of quality in the rebuild contracts and watchdogs and penalties for those who do not deliver at all.
Yeah we have DBR (State Bureau of Investigations), NABU (National Anti Corruption Bureau), NAZK (National Corruption Prevention Agency) etc. Systems are in place, thank you for your input, sir.
You have my sympathy, especially as it takes decades to sort it out. It must be very frustrating. Imagine a machine running with a large "corruption" cog as part of its workings. You cannot just take the cog out without breaking the machine. Now imagine 1000s of little corruption cogs, all interlaced with the working machine. It's that type of problem. Literally the Soviet system ran on corruption and still achieved many great things and was a working machine. Well that's my view anyway.
Everyone knows this. I think the issue is that if Ukraine wants to have continued support from the west it needs to have as few barriers to that support as possible. The American right wing beats the Ukrainian corruption drum as a reason not to support. Take that away and it's one less excuse (and that's all they are is excuses)
Our corruption in America is a feature of the system
>May 27, 1908, Congress forbade use of Treasury employees by the Justice Department
Congress said they feared a secret police, what they really feared was being prosecuted for corruption
Look at how Denmark got shook by one Black Swan documentary. The US is in a far worse place atm.
Still the US is only marginally better than RU, and the distinction has been diminishing the last 16 years.
America says it is the least corrupt country because it legally defines what it does as "not corruption". See SCOTUS' take on bribery laws as an example. Lobbying and gerrymandering and super PACs also come to mind. Money is speech. Billionaires like Thiel buy their own puppet candidates to run for office for them.
Yet in the upcoming election the American news highlights which candidate is getting the most "donations". I thought it was about the candidate, reading between the lines it's absolutely about nothing but money, but who's money, surely not dirt farmer Joe or unhoused Veterans
Indeed it did. It wasn't good on human rights either. It's just a cold-bloodied analogy of a working machine that Ukraine was a part of and has inherited some of the worst bits.
I have always said that in corrupt countries you don't simply vanquish the corrupt government officials and expect corruption to be gone. There is is cleansing that must be undertaken at ALL levels, even at a civilian level. Corruption is a cancer that infests all aspects of life. As you said, there are thousands, if not millions of little cogs that make up this machine. Some bigger than others, but taking out the big one doesn't fix the problem. You need to look at everything and everyone.
Ukraine is no different. My wife is from there, I have been a dozen times, was married there, and I have experienced first hand how out it infiltrates many aspects of their society and people's mentality. The things I had to go through to get things done, christ, let's just say I don't complain about western bureaucracy anymore. A lot of the refugees in my city have brought that mentality with them, even though we have opened our city and homes to them and it's disheartening to see people take advantage of the generosity of others simply to make a buck.
As I told my wife, if Ukraine ever hopes to change that image of one of the most corrupt countries in Europe and gain acceptance into the EU and NATO, a cleansing will need to be done and that doesn't mean Zelensky simply firing this person and that person. It's a start, but a hard look inward needs to be done by many UA nationals who live and breath that kind of mentality. And as cruel as it is to say, much of that mentality disappears with the older population drying off and young people being exposed to western ideals and lifestyles and shunning what those older Soviets taught them.
God bless Ukraine and it's people, but the work isn't done when the war is over. There is a lot of work still to be done.
Thanks for writing all that, I enjoyed reading it and feel it is spot on, and exactly what I saw having Ukrainian refugees in my home. Nothing serious, but just the constant expectation that rules were to be ignored. I really got a sense of how pervasive it is. Just silly things like school is compulsory here, but they ignored that, or putting their seat belts on, ffs, which is also compulsory here. We added one Ukrainian mum to our car insurance, so that she could drive our car, which worked out really well btw, as we had a friend give her 6 weeks of driving lesson, because they just bribe their driving test too, but then I had her ask me what was the normal amount to bribe a police officer. And it really took a lot to convince her never to do that. She thought I was crazy.
Edit: I love them to bits, they are really amazing people.
My wife is Ukranian, and this is pretty much how she describes it. It's not easy to purge out corruption. But it can be done with a lot of effort, diligence, and swift action.
There are many countries where corruption has become folklore! Only very few of them are at war with a terrorist state and are dependent on the help of the international community... And don't think that the donor countries don't want their misappropriated money back!
Well that's my view anyway.
Yeah Ukraine has a long way to go to sort out their corruption issues. I'm sure that US politicians will teach them how to hide it like they do in the future.
As a Ukrainian mod of this sub I have to warn you this will be breaking our “no fundraising” rule and could result in your ban, unless you’re an approved and verified user. We can work out the details behind a nice cup of Espresso. /s
But if I buy him something for 10€, that would be legal, at least where I live as far as I know.
And technically its not a bribe since I don't get an advantage by it or am changing the system, I just pay him to do something he wouldnt do otherwise.
You know, like prostitution for example.
/s
As a brit, i feel like this is hypocricy. It's not like our 2 party system doesn't wet it's beak in the corruption department. We need electoral and political reform like... years ago... but now would be an ok time too.
It is not hypocricy.
The West has major corruption problems, yes, but Ukraine even more.
Ukraine is improving their corruption situation while many Western countries flip between pro- and anti-corruption governments every election, also yes, but that does not change that there are different scales of corruption.
Also other countries having more or fewer problems with corruption is no argument wether to act against corruption or not, everyone needs to.
From the US here. I laughed outright when I read the headline. The sheer level of scumbag corruption in our entire system is ridiculous. One of the most important people in our judiciary got caught getting millions of dollars in free luxury trips, forgiven loans, university for their kids and grandkids paid for, by a single conservative billionaire and the system collectively shrugged and ignored it.
As both an American and a Ukrainian, I can say that Americans have a very serious disconnect about the levels of corruption in the U.S. versus in developing countries. It is a false equivalence which totally disregards the difference in scale.
Is there corruption in the States? Sure! Is it anywhere close to corruption in countries like Ukraine? It’s cute that people think it is.
ETA: one mildly useful measure here is a [Corruption Perceptions Index](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), of which the U.S. is 24th, and Ukraine is 104th.
Some people have lived in countries where trying to get literally anything from official government channels requires "tipping" someone (potentially more than one person), or knowing "the right person," or trading privileged access to get something, or having enough clout to get "favors" from government officials... and some people haven't.
Not that any country is immune, and fighting corruption is never a stage that you reach and then you're done and you don't have to fight any more.
In the US, everything is so decentralized that it varies wildly. There will be places where you have to know a guy, but they are the exception instead of the rule.
We also spend a lot of time and money keeping it that way.
I can’t speak to the levels of corruption in other countries, I simply don’t have the experience or perspective to say that.
That being said, while levels of personal corruption may be very different, the ultimate effect of the corruption persistent in the US system has wide wide ranging effects. Every time it rains in Texas(where I live) beyond a sprinkle, we lost power. In 110 degree heat. Because the energy industry has bought the entire Texas legislature. This literally can and does kill people, let alone when it’s winter and the power goes out because of ‘cold weather’. This is a state of 30 million people who are immediately and negatively affected by it ranging from a minor inconvenience to actual death based on your personal resources or wealth.
That’s a single state in a country of hundreds of millions. Politicians bought to refuse to pass child bride bans because of religious ‘lobbyists’ so we have 12 year olds marrying 50 year old men and trying to bear their babies as long as the parents approve(and they do because they’re in the same crazy ass religious fundamentalist sects)
And that’s not even getting into the federal levels of corruption. Roe V Wade being overturned is literally putting women in danger of dying or going to jail even if the decision they are making is solely based on health reasons and not some ‘moral’ decision about getting abortion.
The levels of corruption are different, but it’s not a competition and the corruption in America kills thousands of people every year from policy decisions. So for ‘the west’ to tell anyone to clean up their house comes off as AT BEST hypocritical.
I totally hear you. But once again, you are seriously downplaying the scale. It’s exactly because of the huge difference between the West and Ukraine that the West can, in fact, demand to do better, and it wouldn’t be hypocritical.
If I was shooting up H and popping oxy and you told me to clean up my act, it wouldn’t be fair for me to retort with “Well, you’re a hypocrite and how dare you - I’ve seen you enjoy a beer or two on a weekend, so don’t tell me to clean up my act until you clean up yours”.
This gap in understanding is also the basis for all the “first world problems” jokes, when someone’s lived experience tells them that a particular situation is very bad, while in reality it’s not too terrible, because the rock bottom is so much lower.
ETA: one mildly useful measure here is a [Corruption Perceptions Index](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), of which the U.S. is 24th, and Ukraine is 104th.
I can understand what you’re saying but when the corruption is literally leading to people dying, I no longer care about levels.
To use your analogy, it would be like an alcoholic telling a heroin addict to clean themselves up after killing someone drunk driving.
People are *dying* because of this. Forget the corruption that just created a permanent wage slave class, we’re talking about people dying. Losing their lives. Their opportunity. Their chance to do anything at all more with their lives.
I genuinely don’t give a shit about ‘levels of corruption’ when it gets to that point.
So it’s still hypocritical as fuck.
It is impossible to have an argument with someone who “no longer cares about levels”.
When I am telling you that as an American citizen living in the States right now, I see all the issues that are going on around me (don’t worry, I’m in Georgia, arguably a similar - if not worse - place to be as Texas), and nevertheless, I hope that one day Ukraine gets to a level of corruption that only kills as many people as corruption in the United States does, and that day would be a very good day, and yet you still say “but but but we have corruption too” - that’s quite literally a first world problem, and I don’t know what else to add. As it goes for many Americans, you’re convinced that you are right and not interested to be persuaded otherwise. Enjoy your day!
This was added after the fact, but I was hoping that some data can shine the light on the issue: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
The U.S. being 24th on the CPI list and Ukraine being 104th is a gap that fits half of the world in it.
The Corruption Perception Index obviously measures the perceived corruption. There probably is a correlation with actual corruption, but sometimes some kinds of corruption is so engrained in a society that it is just perceived as how things are.
For instance the two party system in the US, is probably perceived as "normal" by most. But it hinders a proper political discourse, and a more diversive choice at the voting booth. And thus is a very serious issue.
And I picked that example as it is a well known problem in a well known country. But every other country has similar problems, that are seen as normal, but has great negative impact. Rigged structural systems that prevent a fairer and more efficient society... which very well could be seen as corruption.
Seems like you didn’t read the methodology of CPI computation.
Also, corruption is a defined term. You can’t just perceive shit you don’t like and call it corruption. Which is what Americans do when they complain about American corruption.
As a fellow American, I think Clarence Thomas is corrupt, but let's be real, it's only $4M over a couple of years.
A good lawyer easily makes $4M every year.
Corruption in the West is more "polite", more "hidden", and more confined to the upper echelons of power.
A white person in America is unlikely to encounter outright corruption in their day to day lives.
In many countries of the world, corruption is endemic in every facet and at every level of society.
Just as an example, the average citizen - even rich citizens - can't bribe the average police officer out of a traffic stop in the West. The very richest might be able to use their lawyers or connections with judges to get a favorable outcome after the fact, but the corruption generally doesn't happen on the streets.
Similarly, you can't expect to walk into a governmental office in the West and bribe clerks or low-level office managers to expedite processes or get a favorable result.
In many countries, not only is this kind of corruption possible, it is often mandatory, as in you must bribe cops to avoid jail time if they single you out, even if you did nothing wrong, or you must bribe government clerks to do their job and process standard paperwork, or your registration or application will get "lost" in the system for ages.
When people are indoctrinated with this kind of experience even at the lower levels of society, what becomes tolerable at the highest levels is even more insane.
Even a Black person in the US generally doesn't have to bribe officials just to get a driver's licence.
Nailed it. Brit here too. There is a distinct feel of corruption here isn't there? Hard to put a finger on the extent of it. But seems like there are more and more stories that come out suggesting corruption...
As a westerner I would point out this war has alarmingly proved corruption in rife in the west so the hypocrisy is sickening.. people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
Corruption is a deep and long lasting issue. Even former Warsaw pact states in the EU still struggle with it, despite thirty years having gone by including twenty in which they were part of the EU.
Ukraine and Moldova recognise that corruption is a tool of control for Moscow, (hence why everywhere the Kremlin once swung the sceptre has to deal with it) so they're fighting it at a remarkable pace.
Yes, more needs to be done, but the work that's yet to happen does not take away from the achievements already reached. Keep going Ukraine, you're doing fine, and fuck everyone who says otherwise
this, the real enemy of UA is not simply RU, it is corruption. Corruption in UA was just an extension of corruption in RU.
The war started because RU was losing control of UA, not any NATO bulsh*t.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to reference a fictional movie as a real life example. Even if the move was made to make an actor a president.
But yeah, corruption sucks. The judges and the law system must be reformed first, every next reform won’t work if the judges are corrupted. I don’t get why zelenskiy still hasn’t done that. I mean I know, but that’s sad.
Thank you for your post. Given the global visibility of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there has been an influx of content in our community dealing with military strategy, war-related speculation, and defense tactics by individuals who have not been vetted to instruct others on such matters. To maintain the integrity of this space in wartime, we are removing this type of content. We apologize for the inconvenience and encourage you to post in communities that specifically discuss speculation on armed conflict instead. Please do not repost this submission.
Please do not message us on mod mail about this issue. Mod mail is for vital information only. If you message us for something we do not deem vital, you will be muted for three days. Being muted means you can’t contact the mods. [Feel free to browse our rules, here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules)
Noooo, Ukrainian man, you can't just tell people outside Ukraine about concerns that Ukrainians actually have! How dare you??
Zelenskyi is constantly telling the west corruption is being dealt with while Yermak is propping it up.
The reality is that Ukraine needs to do much better on corruption than Europe itself for the foreseeable future if it wants to keep hope of Europe financing its rebuilding.
So yes, please do jail anyone and everyone taking bribes, embezzling money, and whatnot. And do accept into your government, EU-delegates to oversee how their money is going to get spent.
We've seen with Hungary, what happens with EU money if we leave it to admittedly corrupt countries.
And it's not that that still wouldn't be worth it, but Ukraine is putting itself in a politically very fragile position if it gives the anti-EU/pro-Putin politicians exactly what they need to get the EU to drop support once the war is over.
Hang on. Which way are you looking?
I feel there is something I should know about something that is going on at the moment on one or other side of the pond.
You can look either way. Corruption is a constant fight no matter what country you're talking about. It's human nature to tilt the scales in your favor. Anybody who thinks their country is above corruption is asking for their country to be corrupt.
I don't think anybody is implying that there's *zero* corruption anywhere. It's a matter of magnitude. Ukraine is among the countries making the biggest strides in trying to root it out (which is reflected in their changing score in the link below), but if the [Corruption Perception Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) is to be believed it's really pretty disingenuous to imply that the level of corruption in the US or western Europe is in any way comparable with what it is in Ukraine. We've even seen reports on this sub about how it has negatively affected the war effort.
This is the main reason why so many Ukrainian men left the country and avoid the draft. **Corruption makes people feel like they're not part of the country.**
''Why go to war just so some corrupt oligarch can keep his 100s of luxury apartments in Kyiv, while his sons are in Monaco? F them.''
"My country is corrupt so I am suporting the even more corrupt country that wants to destroy mine over trying to be less corrupt"
Yeah. Makes total sense.
Corruption is everywhere. Just a few years ago, we had a county commissioner arrested where I live (this is In the US). Him and his cronies were helping his buddies get county contracts for generous kick backs.
Ya but thats 'high level' corruption - is it fucked up, of course but its not as systematic as post communist countries and doesnt affect regular folks as much. (I mean realistically in every day setting)
Now imagine that corruption is ingrained all the way from the bottom up.
Got a speeding ticket? Oh we can make it go away for 20$. Oh, dont worry tomorrow we'll get you again and make up some bs reason even if you weren't speeding. Dont want to pay? - well fuck me, seems your car is no longer fit for driving.
Job application - tough titties, cough up 200$ for your cv not to get shredded in the first place.
Doctor's appointment - unfortunately the doctor will see you in 6 months cause the queues are SO fucking big. Can i shorten the queue? Sure - 50$
Uni admission? Boy, i hope you have a stack of crispy notes to see you through admission and every exam for the next 4-5 years.
Kindergarten ? Lol, there's 200 people and only 50 spots. Hmm if only i could be persuaded...
Etc etc on and on and ad nauseam.
Gets to a point where every single tiny thing is decided by having cash on hand - no cash? Well be fucked and vegetate.
The whole idea of a functioning society is just fairy tale at this point the only thing that matters is to get in the position of power/authority - so that the money be funelled to you, so that you can use that money to prop you up, get more power and repeat. Just how russia functions rn🤣
So yeah, corruption is present in every country - not seeing it or denying is just damn straight naive - but western countries have at least managed to introduce and maintain a system of checks so that it doesnt spread across entire society and affect every single thing.
Exactly, downplaying this isn't doing Ukraine any favors. I mean, they dug dogshit trenches in Kharkiv that were quickly lost, many soldiers blamed this on corrupt officials picking the construction contract that benefited them personally.
We had one of MP’s from Servant of the People party security detail beat up a GUR veteran walking with his child yesterday, your corruption is hiding under the carpet, ours drives around with a security detachment beating up people.
As both an American and a Ukrainian, I can say that Americans have a very serious disconnect about the levels of corruption in the U.S. versus in developing countries. It is a false equivalence which totally disregards the difference in scale.
It’s really hard to put it into perspective and explain. News about Bob Menendez or Fani Willis or even Clarence Thomas are cute and adorable from that point of view.
Corruption in most of the west is just legal so it’s not corruption. It’s called lobbying or political donations, or any of the other things that let you skip the line or have special access to opportunities.
You’re being incredibly naïve if you think they are even close. Yes, the West has tons of corruption issues, but they are nowhere near where Ukraine has historically been. They’ve made huge improvements, but still have a ways to go to reach Western levels.
You misunderstood what was said. They are very different. They haven’t managed yet to switch to legal corruption. There is a lot of work to be done for sure. They are both a cancer to the country’s economy and democracy.
Legal corruption, aka lobbying, is still nowhere near the same lol.
Being lobbied to spend taxpayer dollars a certain way is very different than “hey, I have a budget of $20 million, guess I will pocket $10 million of it snd give my friends $5 million”
Lobbying is just the easy example. Most people don’t understand how legal corruption works. You are also off by orders of magnitude. To give you an easy example you can google look into the airforce air refueling tanker saga. The 737 max debacle and the FAA is another. You can find many examples of regulations being passed to protect the incumbent technologies delaying the introduction of new ones. There is a long list if you bother to look. Not all of it based on just $ either. Some of it it’s free trips on private planes. It is also about hiring the person that needs to be influenced kids. Sometimes it’s refreshing to see good old Soviet style corruption.
I get what you’re saying, but you’re basically arguing “legal corruption exists” which nobody is saying you’re wrong.
The point is…Ukraine’s corruption problems are well beyond most of the Wests and if they want to join Europe more formally they must reduce it.
Playing whataboutism wont change that.
As an American, I don't think I've ever had to bribe a doctor/police officer/gov't official just to go about daily life. Like ever
High level there is corruption but honestly they get in trouble once exposed, and it isn't something that ordinary people directly feel.
In the US it's done through entities called political action committees. There are limits on how much money a person can donate to a political candidate. To get around this, politicians created laws allowing political entities to accept unlimited donations. For example, one political candidate was recently able to accept a $100 million donation through a PAC (political action committee.)
Exactly. Well organized constitutional legal corruption. It does hurt the country by reducing social mobility and the competitiveness of its economy. It tends to help entrench the current powers and corrodes the democratic process.
Maybe the West should remember The Panama Papers and set its own house in order before bagging on Ukraine - you know, that little incident that revealed that literally the entire billionaire class is engaged in massive tax evasion, and then the leaker mysteriously committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head or whatever, and everyone decided they didn't want to talk about it any more and nothing was done.
I hope the West is helping in every way possible to find these issues for Ukraine 🇺🇦 it could be a really big job considering their at fucking war at the moment 😮💨 ❤️ 🇬🇧
They had Russian people or Russian backed candidates in government a few years ago. Cleaning that stench out of entire government takes some time to root them all out.
The West is corrupt to its core, they should start with themselves.
A lot of companies broke sanctions and yet, we have yet to see their owners arrested for sending russians parts for the military even after being caught red-handed.
amazing that you are being down voted for telling the truth and a very critical one. Too many people don't have a clue of how bad it is.
I think UA is slowly moving in the direction of removing corruption, but that's all thanks to the war. If there is no substantial change before the end of war like you say, it will not improve.
I think we were making good progress before the war - Prozorro (procurement reform), DBR, Kolomoyskyy’s imprisonment, visa free regime with EU were all steps in the right direction. A lot of unpopular (often among MPs) laws were only passed because of pressure from Americans or EU. War threw a wrench into all that. We sadly see a tip of a humongous iceberg (see Ukraine’s military budgets 2022-2024) and we can only notice certain effects like ration quality dropping off significantly lately.
And don’t get me started on judicial reform (lack of which makes any other reform virtually impossible, as the courts absolve anyone with $$$ and influence). In Ukraine judges and prosecutors are like a mafia clan. Their whole families work in law.
Correction appreciated. Maidam was a message that people wanted to change away from corrupt UA/RU. But I remember the most ridiculous advertisement at the airport (Boryspol) against corruption where a passenger would try to bribe a passport control officer (and get caught). Totally irrelevant level of corruption, but I guess it would please EU politicians.
Dear Western Nations,
Don't act like you don't have corruption and that you can't do more either. Quit pressuring Ukraine to fight harder than you do on corruption while they're trying to fucking survive an extinction level event.
Sincerely,
This Western Nation dwelling citizen.
Yes and no.
It does come to light in the U.S. and eventually works its way through… although it’s being tested HARD lately
But corruption in politics is like water in an ocean. Can’t have one without the other.
Speaking of, any Ukrainian supreme justices need an RV?, elaborate vacation junkets?, maybe some good old rage at the changing world?
Go study the justice system or lack thereof in Ukraine. Americans have no fucking idea how good they have it compared to Ukraine, not considering the war. In Ukraine judges and lawyers are even more corrupt than cops in the west.
Corruption in the West is more "polite", more "hidden", and more confined to the upper echelons of power.
A white person in America is unlikely to encounter outright corruption in their day to day lives.
In many countries of the world, corruption is endemic in every facet and at every level of society.
Just as an example, the average citizen - even rich citizens - can't bribe the average police officer out of a traffic stop in the West. The very richest might be able to use their lawyers or connections with judges to get a favorable outcome after the fact, but the corruption generally doesn't happen on the streets.
Similarly, you can't expect to walk into a governmental office in the West and bribe clerks or low-level office managers to expedite processes or get a favorable result.
In many countries, not only is this kind of corruption possible, it is often mandatory, as in you must bribe cops to avoid jail time if they single you out, even if you did nothing wrong, or you must bribe government clerks to do their job and process standard paperwork, or your registration or application will get "lost" in the system for ages.
When people are indoctrinated with this kind of experience even at the lower levels of society, what becomes tolerable at the highest levels is even more insane.
Even a Black person in the US generally doesn't have to bribe officials just to get a driver's licence.
As a Canadian, the west should not throw stones while we live in glass houses.
We currently have one of the most corrupt federal governments in our history, and the provincial government of Ontario is only second to that of Quebec, which is functionally a mob run province.
And that province runs the federal government...
Pretty rich coming from the United States, where we have the most corrupt politician in our history running for president with a legitimate chance to win, and our Congress refusing to make it illegal for them to insider trade.
Okay but the west is full of corruption and absolutely nothing is done. Hell corruption in the form of lobbying is written into fucking law in the U.S.
Corruption in the West is more "polite", more "hidden", and more confined to the upper echelons of power.
A white person in America is unlikely to encounter outright corruption in their day to day lives.
In many countries of the world, corruption is endemic in every facet and at every level of society.
Just as an example, the average citizen - even rich citizens - can't bribe the average police officer out of a traffic stop in the West. The very richest might be able to use their lawyers or connections with judges to get a favorable outcome after the fact, but the corruption *generally* doesn't happen on the streets.
Similarly, you can't expect to walk into a governmental office in the West and bribe clerks or low-level office managers to expedite processes or get a favorable result.
In many countries, not only is this kind of corruption possible, it is often *mandatory*, as in *you must bribe cops* to avoid jail time if they single you out, even if you did nothing wrong, or you *must* bribe government clerks *to do their job* and process standard paperwork, or your registration or application will get "lost" in the system for ages.
When people are indoctrinated with this kind of experience even at the lower levels of society, what becomes tolerable at the highest levels is even more insane.
Even a Black person in the US generally doesn't have to bribe officials just to get a driver's licence.
Привіт u/jesterboyd ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday). **Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting) **Daily series on Ukraine's history & culture:** [Sunrise Posts Organized By Category](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As a Ukrainian, no comment.
One of the many reasons that made Ukrainian people look to the West and EU in the first place is corruption.
As a Ukrainian, I would say that there should probably be several things done to decrease corruption: 1) Implement annual personal tax returns, with cross-validation of declarations from multiple sources. This should both increase total taxes collected and reduce tax rates via reduction of tax avoidance. 2) Increase salaries of key government employees to ones equivalent to in developed countries. 3) Allow easier access to key government statistics and information. 4) Decrease interest rates as a monetary policy. Otherwise it is really difficult to beat 15-20% per year risk-free rate without corruption. Opportunity cost is too high due to slow processes (eg approvals of permits etc). 5) Remove/reduce government interventions into economy. 6) Implement an equivalent of 401k in US, instead/in addition to current Ukrainian pension plan which is clearly insufficient and is too expensive for taxpayers and employers. Parts 4 and 5, are not compatible with war unfortunately(due to risk of hyperinflation), but 1, 2, 3, and 6, I think, can be easily implemented. Parts 1 and 6 are required but not exhaustive for part 2.
In Australia there is a government office known as the "independent commissioner against corruption". It is their job to follow up on complaints of corruption within government and where evidence is found, take it through the criminal system. You need areas of the government that investigate areas they are not connected too. There has been corruption found in the last few years, though on the whole Australia is not considered a corrupt country. Having these systems in place is how you keep corruption to a minimum. It also also worth remembering corruption never entirely goes away. While Ukraine is going through such change as now, it would be worth considering starting up something similar. I do wonder what it will look like after the war with so much money coming in to the country to re-build it. The law and the checks and balances that building work and contracts are executed properly will be very important. There will be lots of money changing hands, and there will be opportunity for companies that do the work to make fair and good money. But it is Ukraine's interest to make sure corruption is found and removed, that the rebuild happens properly as it should for the Ukrainian people and that fair payment for fair work is the order of the day so that people understand they can live a good life doing the right things and do not need to resort to corruption. I understand there is history that contracts are paid, and then dont happen. Or are done to low quality with the wrong goods. There needs to be proper guarantees of quality in the rebuild contracts and watchdogs and penalties for those who do not deliver at all.
Yeah we have DBR (State Bureau of Investigations), NABU (National Anti Corruption Bureau), NAZK (National Corruption Prevention Agency) etc. Systems are in place, thank you for your input, sir.
Good to know, thanks.
You have my sympathy, especially as it takes decades to sort it out. It must be very frustrating. Imagine a machine running with a large "corruption" cog as part of its workings. You cannot just take the cog out without breaking the machine. Now imagine 1000s of little corruption cogs, all interlaced with the working machine. It's that type of problem. Literally the Soviet system ran on corruption and still achieved many great things and was a working machine. Well that's my view anyway.
The soviet system achieved to destroy itself with ist corruption
The corruption cogs were made of plastic.
It’s fantastic.
"You can touch my hair, it won't go everywhere\~"
Corruption exists everywhere, yes America too! (A lot less than RuZZia!) but let's not be naive.
Everyone knows this. I think the issue is that if Ukraine wants to have continued support from the west it needs to have as few barriers to that support as possible. The American right wing beats the Ukrainian corruption drum as a reason not to support. Take that away and it's one less excuse (and that's all they are is excuses)
We have legal corruption called lobbying so let’s not be hypocrites. Ukraine has a century of russian history to remove it not easy
Will take 20 to 50 years to remove
I’d say less given how large of a cultural change Ukraine made away from Soviet culture in the 3 decades they’ve been free of Moscow
I know a couple Ukrainians and more so in the big cities they are fighting corruption with good results
Okay
Our corruption in America is a feature of the system >May 27, 1908, Congress forbade use of Treasury employees by the Justice Department Congress said they feared a secret police, what they really feared was being prosecuted for corruption
Look at how Denmark got shook by one Black Swan documentary. The US is in a far worse place atm. Still the US is only marginally better than RU, and the distinction has been diminishing the last 16 years.
America says it is the least corrupt country because it legally defines what it does as "not corruption". See SCOTUS' take on bribery laws as an example. Lobbying and gerrymandering and super PACs also come to mind. Money is speech. Billionaires like Thiel buy their own puppet candidates to run for office for them.
Yet in the upcoming election the American news highlights which candidate is getting the most "donations". I thought it was about the candidate, reading between the lines it's absolutely about nothing but money, but who's money, surely not dirt farmer Joe or unhoused Veterans
Indeed it did. It wasn't good on human rights either. It's just a cold-bloodied analogy of a working machine that Ukraine was a part of and has inherited some of the worst bits.
I have always said that in corrupt countries you don't simply vanquish the corrupt government officials and expect corruption to be gone. There is is cleansing that must be undertaken at ALL levels, even at a civilian level. Corruption is a cancer that infests all aspects of life. As you said, there are thousands, if not millions of little cogs that make up this machine. Some bigger than others, but taking out the big one doesn't fix the problem. You need to look at everything and everyone. Ukraine is no different. My wife is from there, I have been a dozen times, was married there, and I have experienced first hand how out it infiltrates many aspects of their society and people's mentality. The things I had to go through to get things done, christ, let's just say I don't complain about western bureaucracy anymore. A lot of the refugees in my city have brought that mentality with them, even though we have opened our city and homes to them and it's disheartening to see people take advantage of the generosity of others simply to make a buck. As I told my wife, if Ukraine ever hopes to change that image of one of the most corrupt countries in Europe and gain acceptance into the EU and NATO, a cleansing will need to be done and that doesn't mean Zelensky simply firing this person and that person. It's a start, but a hard look inward needs to be done by many UA nationals who live and breath that kind of mentality. And as cruel as it is to say, much of that mentality disappears with the older population drying off and young people being exposed to western ideals and lifestyles and shunning what those older Soviets taught them. God bless Ukraine and it's people, but the work isn't done when the war is over. There is a lot of work still to be done.
Thanks for writing all that, I enjoyed reading it and feel it is spot on, and exactly what I saw having Ukrainian refugees in my home. Nothing serious, but just the constant expectation that rules were to be ignored. I really got a sense of how pervasive it is. Just silly things like school is compulsory here, but they ignored that, or putting their seat belts on, ffs, which is also compulsory here. We added one Ukrainian mum to our car insurance, so that she could drive our car, which worked out really well btw, as we had a friend give her 6 weeks of driving lesson, because they just bribe their driving test too, but then I had her ask me what was the normal amount to bribe a police officer. And it really took a lot to convince her never to do that. She thought I was crazy. Edit: I love them to bits, they are really amazing people.
My wife is Ukranian, and this is pretty much how she describes it. It's not easy to purge out corruption. But it can be done with a lot of effort, diligence, and swift action.
There are many countries where corruption has become folklore! Only very few of them are at war with a terrorist state and are dependent on the help of the international community... And don't think that the donor countries don't want their misappropriated money back! Well that's my view anyway.
Thanks you for your comments. It's interesting to me.
That was very well put.
Yeah Ukraine has a long way to go to sort out their corruption issues. I'm sure that US politicians will teach them how to hide it like they do in the future.
As a South African, I applaud the comparatively huge steps Ukraine has taken since the 90s.
I offer you 10€ for a comment on this topic
As a Ukrainian mod of this sub I have to warn you this will be breaking our “no fundraising” rule and could result in your ban, unless you’re an approved and verified user. We can work out the details behind a nice cup of Espresso. /s
I didn't want to fund him, I wanted to test if I could bribe him.
That is highly illegal, sir
So you are saying the compensation doesn't correspond to the risk? You are asking for 20 euros ?
But if I buy him something for 10€, that would be legal, at least where I live as far as I know. And technically its not a bribe since I don't get an advantage by it or am changing the system, I just pay him to do something he wouldnt do otherwise. You know, like prostitution for example. /s
Maybe for a small fee you can look the other way. Just this once. I'll even leave it on the table in a paper bag while you think about it.
As a brit, i feel like this is hypocricy. It's not like our 2 party system doesn't wet it's beak in the corruption department. We need electoral and political reform like... years ago... but now would be an ok time too.
It is not hypocricy. The West has major corruption problems, yes, but Ukraine even more. Ukraine is improving their corruption situation while many Western countries flip between pro- and anti-corruption governments every election, also yes, but that does not change that there are different scales of corruption. Also other countries having more or fewer problems with corruption is no argument wether to act against corruption or not, everyone needs to.
From the US here. I laughed outright when I read the headline. The sheer level of scumbag corruption in our entire system is ridiculous. One of the most important people in our judiciary got caught getting millions of dollars in free luxury trips, forgiven loans, university for their kids and grandkids paid for, by a single conservative billionaire and the system collectively shrugged and ignored it.
As both an American and a Ukrainian, I can say that Americans have a very serious disconnect about the levels of corruption in the U.S. versus in developing countries. It is a false equivalence which totally disregards the difference in scale. Is there corruption in the States? Sure! Is it anywhere close to corruption in countries like Ukraine? It’s cute that people think it is. ETA: one mildly useful measure here is a [Corruption Perceptions Index](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), of which the U.S. is 24th, and Ukraine is 104th.
Some people have lived in countries where trying to get literally anything from official government channels requires "tipping" someone (potentially more than one person), or knowing "the right person," or trading privileged access to get something, or having enough clout to get "favors" from government officials... and some people haven't. Not that any country is immune, and fighting corruption is never a stage that you reach and then you're done and you don't have to fight any more.
In the US, everything is so decentralized that it varies wildly. There will be places where you have to know a guy, but they are the exception instead of the rule. We also spend a lot of time and money keeping it that way.
I can’t speak to the levels of corruption in other countries, I simply don’t have the experience or perspective to say that. That being said, while levels of personal corruption may be very different, the ultimate effect of the corruption persistent in the US system has wide wide ranging effects. Every time it rains in Texas(where I live) beyond a sprinkle, we lost power. In 110 degree heat. Because the energy industry has bought the entire Texas legislature. This literally can and does kill people, let alone when it’s winter and the power goes out because of ‘cold weather’. This is a state of 30 million people who are immediately and negatively affected by it ranging from a minor inconvenience to actual death based on your personal resources or wealth. That’s a single state in a country of hundreds of millions. Politicians bought to refuse to pass child bride bans because of religious ‘lobbyists’ so we have 12 year olds marrying 50 year old men and trying to bear their babies as long as the parents approve(and they do because they’re in the same crazy ass religious fundamentalist sects) And that’s not even getting into the federal levels of corruption. Roe V Wade being overturned is literally putting women in danger of dying or going to jail even if the decision they are making is solely based on health reasons and not some ‘moral’ decision about getting abortion. The levels of corruption are different, but it’s not a competition and the corruption in America kills thousands of people every year from policy decisions. So for ‘the west’ to tell anyone to clean up their house comes off as AT BEST hypocritical.
I totally hear you. But once again, you are seriously downplaying the scale. It’s exactly because of the huge difference between the West and Ukraine that the West can, in fact, demand to do better, and it wouldn’t be hypocritical. If I was shooting up H and popping oxy and you told me to clean up my act, it wouldn’t be fair for me to retort with “Well, you’re a hypocrite and how dare you - I’ve seen you enjoy a beer or two on a weekend, so don’t tell me to clean up my act until you clean up yours”. This gap in understanding is also the basis for all the “first world problems” jokes, when someone’s lived experience tells them that a particular situation is very bad, while in reality it’s not too terrible, because the rock bottom is so much lower. ETA: one mildly useful measure here is a [Corruption Perceptions Index](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), of which the U.S. is 24th, and Ukraine is 104th.
I can understand what you’re saying but when the corruption is literally leading to people dying, I no longer care about levels. To use your analogy, it would be like an alcoholic telling a heroin addict to clean themselves up after killing someone drunk driving. People are *dying* because of this. Forget the corruption that just created a permanent wage slave class, we’re talking about people dying. Losing their lives. Their opportunity. Their chance to do anything at all more with their lives. I genuinely don’t give a shit about ‘levels of corruption’ when it gets to that point. So it’s still hypocritical as fuck.
It is impossible to have an argument with someone who “no longer cares about levels”. When I am telling you that as an American citizen living in the States right now, I see all the issues that are going on around me (don’t worry, I’m in Georgia, arguably a similar - if not worse - place to be as Texas), and nevertheless, I hope that one day Ukraine gets to a level of corruption that only kills as many people as corruption in the United States does, and that day would be a very good day, and yet you still say “but but but we have corruption too” - that’s quite literally a first world problem, and I don’t know what else to add. As it goes for many Americans, you’re convinced that you are right and not interested to be persuaded otherwise. Enjoy your day!
Enjoy your day as well. I wish for a better future for everyone and I understand your viewpoint. I don’t agree but I get it.
This was added after the fact, but I was hoping that some data can shine the light on the issue: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index The U.S. being 24th on the CPI list and Ukraine being 104th is a gap that fits half of the world in it.
Someone has never had to buy a bottle of alcohol to go to the doctor and it shows.
The Corruption Perception Index obviously measures the perceived corruption. There probably is a correlation with actual corruption, but sometimes some kinds of corruption is so engrained in a society that it is just perceived as how things are. For instance the two party system in the US, is probably perceived as "normal" by most. But it hinders a proper political discourse, and a more diversive choice at the voting booth. And thus is a very serious issue. And I picked that example as it is a well known problem in a well known country. But every other country has similar problems, that are seen as normal, but has great negative impact. Rigged structural systems that prevent a fairer and more efficient society... which very well could be seen as corruption.
Seems like you didn’t read the methodology of CPI computation. Also, corruption is a defined term. You can’t just perceive shit you don’t like and call it corruption. Which is what Americans do when they complain about American corruption.
Clearance Thomas is a national disgrace. But no where near the Mango Mussolini.
Least cringe american be like
As a fellow American, I think Clarence Thomas is corrupt, but let's be real, it's only $4M over a couple of years. A good lawyer easily makes $4M every year.
Your Tories are ridiculous
Corruption in the West is more "polite", more "hidden", and more confined to the upper echelons of power. A white person in America is unlikely to encounter outright corruption in their day to day lives. In many countries of the world, corruption is endemic in every facet and at every level of society. Just as an example, the average citizen - even rich citizens - can't bribe the average police officer out of a traffic stop in the West. The very richest might be able to use their lawyers or connections with judges to get a favorable outcome after the fact, but the corruption generally doesn't happen on the streets. Similarly, you can't expect to walk into a governmental office in the West and bribe clerks or low-level office managers to expedite processes or get a favorable result. In many countries, not only is this kind of corruption possible, it is often mandatory, as in you must bribe cops to avoid jail time if they single you out, even if you did nothing wrong, or you must bribe government clerks to do their job and process standard paperwork, or your registration or application will get "lost" in the system for ages. When people are indoctrinated with this kind of experience even at the lower levels of society, what becomes tolerable at the highest levels is even more insane. Even a Black person in the US generally doesn't have to bribe officials just to get a driver's licence.
Nailed it. Brit here too. There is a distinct feel of corruption here isn't there? Hard to put a finger on the extent of it. But seems like there are more and more stories that come out suggesting corruption...
Not a 2 party system, might seem like it but its not.
As a westerner I would point out this war has alarmingly proved corruption in rife in the west so the hypocrisy is sickening.. people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
As an American who knows how our MIC and large corporations operate- no comment.
as a westerner we should be looking closer to home first
Corruption is a deep and long lasting issue. Even former Warsaw pact states in the EU still struggle with it, despite thirty years having gone by including twenty in which they were part of the EU. Ukraine and Moldova recognise that corruption is a tool of control for Moscow, (hence why everywhere the Kremlin once swung the sceptre has to deal with it) so they're fighting it at a remarkable pace. Yes, more needs to be done, but the work that's yet to happen does not take away from the achievements already reached. Keep going Ukraine, you're doing fine, and fuck everyone who says otherwise
this, the real enemy of UA is not simply RU, it is corruption. Corruption in UA was just an extension of corruption in RU. The war started because RU was losing control of UA, not any NATO bulsh*t.
[удалено]
I don’t think it’s a good idea to reference a fictional movie as a real life example. Even if the move was made to make an actor a president. But yeah, corruption sucks. The judges and the law system must be reformed first, every next reform won’t work if the judges are corrupted. I don’t get why zelenskiy still hasn’t done that. I mean I know, but that’s sad.
What about fresh corruption and shamelessness within Servants of the People party? Who watches the Watchmen?
[удалено]
How can healthy culture develop when there are no elections and half the country’s dealings are hidden under “war secret” stamp?
Not much can develop when it’s shot, burned, or bombed constantly
[удалено]
Thank you for your post. Given the global visibility of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there has been an influx of content in our community dealing with military strategy, war-related speculation, and defense tactics by individuals who have not been vetted to instruct others on such matters. To maintain the integrity of this space in wartime, we are removing this type of content. We apologize for the inconvenience and encourage you to post in communities that specifically discuss speculation on armed conflict instead. Please do not repost this submission. Please do not message us on mod mail about this issue. Mod mail is for vital information only. If you message us for something we do not deem vital, you will be muted for three days. Being muted means you can’t contact the mods. [Feel free to browse our rules, here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules)
Noooo, Ukrainian man, you can't just tell people outside Ukraine about concerns that Ukrainians actually have! How dare you?? Zelenskyi is constantly telling the west corruption is being dealt with while Yermak is propping it up.
I mean literally Western bodies are demanding to be able to watch, to be at their standards of accepted corruption.
The reality is that Ukraine needs to do much better on corruption than Europe itself for the foreseeable future if it wants to keep hope of Europe financing its rebuilding. So yes, please do jail anyone and everyone taking bribes, embezzling money, and whatnot. And do accept into your government, EU-delegates to oversee how their money is going to get spent. We've seen with Hungary, what happens with EU money if we leave it to admittedly corrupt countries. And it's not that that still wouldn't be worth it, but Ukraine is putting itself in a politically very fragile position if it gives the anti-EU/pro-Putin politicians exactly what they need to get the EU to drop support once the war is over.
Well, at least they are doing more than a lot of nations I could think of..... looking over the pond just now.
Hang on. Which way are you looking? I feel there is something I should know about something that is going on at the moment on one or other side of the pond.
You can look either way. Corruption is a constant fight no matter what country you're talking about. It's human nature to tilt the scales in your favor. Anybody who thinks their country is above corruption is asking for their country to be corrupt.
I don't think anybody is implying that there's *zero* corruption anywhere. It's a matter of magnitude. Ukraine is among the countries making the biggest strides in trying to root it out (which is reflected in their changing score in the link below), but if the [Corruption Perception Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) is to be believed it's really pretty disingenuous to imply that the level of corruption in the US or western Europe is in any way comparable with what it is in Ukraine. We've even seen reports on this sub about how it has negatively affected the war effort.
Errrrrm, yes there’s shit going in both sides!!
So focus on your own shit, ok?
No…..
Typical.
This is the main reason why so many Ukrainian men left the country and avoid the draft. **Corruption makes people feel like they're not part of the country.** ''Why go to war just so some corrupt oligarch can keep his 100s of luxury apartments in Kyiv, while his sons are in Monaco? F them.''
absolutely, and even more, it is one of the reasons there are too many pro-RU traitors in UA.
"My country is corrupt so I am suporting the even more corrupt country that wants to destroy mine over trying to be less corrupt" Yeah. Makes total sense.
because they only see the myth of a great nation that RU projects.
Corruption is everywhere. Just a few years ago, we had a county commissioner arrested where I live (this is In the US). Him and his cronies were helping his buddies get county contracts for generous kick backs.
Ya but thats 'high level' corruption - is it fucked up, of course but its not as systematic as post communist countries and doesnt affect regular folks as much. (I mean realistically in every day setting) Now imagine that corruption is ingrained all the way from the bottom up. Got a speeding ticket? Oh we can make it go away for 20$. Oh, dont worry tomorrow we'll get you again and make up some bs reason even if you weren't speeding. Dont want to pay? - well fuck me, seems your car is no longer fit for driving. Job application - tough titties, cough up 200$ for your cv not to get shredded in the first place. Doctor's appointment - unfortunately the doctor will see you in 6 months cause the queues are SO fucking big. Can i shorten the queue? Sure - 50$ Uni admission? Boy, i hope you have a stack of crispy notes to see you through admission and every exam for the next 4-5 years. Kindergarten ? Lol, there's 200 people and only 50 spots. Hmm if only i could be persuaded... Etc etc on and on and ad nauseam. Gets to a point where every single tiny thing is decided by having cash on hand - no cash? Well be fucked and vegetate. The whole idea of a functioning society is just fairy tale at this point the only thing that matters is to get in the position of power/authority - so that the money be funelled to you, so that you can use that money to prop you up, get more power and repeat. Just how russia functions rn🤣 So yeah, corruption is present in every country - not seeing it or denying is just damn straight naive - but western countries have at least managed to introduce and maintain a system of checks so that it doesnt spread across entire society and affect every single thing.
Exactly, downplaying this isn't doing Ukraine any favors. I mean, they dug dogshit trenches in Kharkiv that were quickly lost, many soldiers blamed this on corrupt officials picking the construction contract that benefited them personally.
Exactly this. Ukraine has a shitload of work to do.
We had one of MP’s from Servant of the People party security detail beat up a GUR veteran walking with his child yesterday, your corruption is hiding under the carpet, ours drives around with a security detachment beating up people.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C8cmaDnNgZQ/?igsh=ZndsanRjbHU5c3ls
I can see 4000+ comments. Looks like this has the public eye. I hope there are consequences
lol 'disowned' https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2024/06/21/7461996/ wow much punishment, such wow
Former member of SOTP, actually. He was [dismissed from the party](https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2023/01/26/7386645/) over a year ago.
Who could’ve imagined a notorious thug could be such a party pooper.
As both an American and a Ukrainian, I can say that Americans have a very serious disconnect about the levels of corruption in the U.S. versus in developing countries. It is a false equivalence which totally disregards the difference in scale. It’s really hard to put it into perspective and explain. News about Bob Menendez or Fani Willis or even Clarence Thomas are cute and adorable from that point of view.
Also the West: corrupt as fuck.
Are they really still doing the track suit thing? Lol. Sadly, Ukraine has been infested with these crooks for generations. Keep up the good work.
Winning? The war on corraption not even began.
Corruption in most of the west is just legal so it’s not corruption. It’s called lobbying or political donations, or any of the other things that let you skip the line or have special access to opportunities.
You’re being incredibly naïve if you think they are even close. Yes, the West has tons of corruption issues, but they are nowhere near where Ukraine has historically been. They’ve made huge improvements, but still have a ways to go to reach Western levels.
You misunderstood what was said. They are very different. They haven’t managed yet to switch to legal corruption. There is a lot of work to be done for sure. They are both a cancer to the country’s economy and democracy.
Legal corruption, aka lobbying, is still nowhere near the same lol. Being lobbied to spend taxpayer dollars a certain way is very different than “hey, I have a budget of $20 million, guess I will pocket $10 million of it snd give my friends $5 million”
Lobbying is just the easy example. Most people don’t understand how legal corruption works. You are also off by orders of magnitude. To give you an easy example you can google look into the airforce air refueling tanker saga. The 737 max debacle and the FAA is another. You can find many examples of regulations being passed to protect the incumbent technologies delaying the introduction of new ones. There is a long list if you bother to look. Not all of it based on just $ either. Some of it it’s free trips on private planes. It is also about hiring the person that needs to be influenced kids. Sometimes it’s refreshing to see good old Soviet style corruption.
I get what you’re saying, but you’re basically arguing “legal corruption exists” which nobody is saying you’re wrong. The point is…Ukraine’s corruption problems are well beyond most of the Wests and if they want to join Europe more formally they must reduce it. Playing whataboutism wont change that.
As an American, I don't think I've ever had to bribe a doctor/police officer/gov't official just to go about daily life. Like ever High level there is corruption but honestly they get in trouble once exposed, and it isn't something that ordinary people directly feel.
In the US it's done through entities called political action committees. There are limits on how much money a person can donate to a political candidate. To get around this, politicians created laws allowing political entities to accept unlimited donations. For example, one political candidate was recently able to accept a $100 million donation through a PAC (political action committee.)
Exactly. Well organized constitutional legal corruption. It does hurt the country by reducing social mobility and the competitiveness of its economy. It tends to help entrench the current powers and corrodes the democratic process.
Let us all do more against corruption
Maybe the West should remember The Panama Papers and set its own house in order before bagging on Ukraine - you know, that little incident that revealed that literally the entire billionaire class is engaged in massive tax evasion, and then the leaker mysteriously committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head or whatever, and everyone decided they didn't want to talk about it any more and nothing was done.
One thing doesn't stop you from doing the other. And tax evasion and corruption also aren't the same.
Both bring a country to its knees over time. In a very similar manner...
>And tax evasion and corruption also aren't the same. LOL
I hope the West is helping in every way possible to find these issues for Ukraine 🇺🇦 it could be a really big job considering their at fucking war at the moment 😮💨 ❤️ 🇬🇧
They had Russian people or Russian backed candidates in government a few years ago. Cleaning that stench out of entire government takes some time to root them all out.
The West is corrupt to its core, they should start with themselves. A lot of companies broke sanctions and yet, we have yet to see their owners arrested for sending russians parts for the military even after being caught red-handed.
Can someone post the full text?
I bet the USA doesn't count accepting bribes from lobbyists as corruption.....
At what point can you say "no, YOU need to do more."
After we do a judicial and military reform. So probably never
amazing that you are being down voted for telling the truth and a very critical one. Too many people don't have a clue of how bad it is. I think UA is slowly moving in the direction of removing corruption, but that's all thanks to the war. If there is no substantial change before the end of war like you say, it will not improve.
I think we were making good progress before the war - Prozorro (procurement reform), DBR, Kolomoyskyy’s imprisonment, visa free regime with EU were all steps in the right direction. A lot of unpopular (often among MPs) laws were only passed because of pressure from Americans or EU. War threw a wrench into all that. We sadly see a tip of a humongous iceberg (see Ukraine’s military budgets 2022-2024) and we can only notice certain effects like ration quality dropping off significantly lately. And don’t get me started on judicial reform (lack of which makes any other reform virtually impossible, as the courts absolve anyone with $$$ and influence). In Ukraine judges and prosecutors are like a mafia clan. Their whole families work in law.
Correction appreciated. Maidam was a message that people wanted to change away from corrupt UA/RU. But I remember the most ridiculous advertisement at the airport (Boryspol) against corruption where a passenger would try to bribe a passport control officer (and get caught). Totally irrelevant level of corruption, but I guess it would please EU politicians.
There is literally no country in the world where the answer is not "do more" though.
I can name a few where I can wholeheartedly say “do nothing” - Russian Federation, NK, China
Corruption in western countries is the reason why Russia feels invincible
So beat back the second best army in the world without being able to attack that country oh and end all corruption to a standard others can’t reach?
Dear Western Nations, Don't act like you don't have corruption and that you can't do more either. Quit pressuring Ukraine to fight harder than you do on corruption while they're trying to fucking survive an extinction level event. Sincerely, This Western Nation dwelling citizen.
As a U.S. citizen I say, "Shut up West until you weed out your own corruption first!" Slava Ukraini!
The West has little room to talk these days.
Yes and no. It does come to light in the U.S. and eventually works its way through… although it’s being tested HARD lately But corruption in politics is like water in an ocean. Can’t have one without the other. Speaking of, any Ukrainian supreme justices need an RV?, elaborate vacation junkets?, maybe some good old rage at the changing world?
Go study the justice system or lack thereof in Ukraine. Americans have no fucking idea how good they have it compared to Ukraine, not considering the war. In Ukraine judges and lawyers are even more corrupt than cops in the west.
The west also needs to sort its corruption out.
Corruption in the West is more "polite", more "hidden", and more confined to the upper echelons of power. A white person in America is unlikely to encounter outright corruption in their day to day lives. In many countries of the world, corruption is endemic in every facet and at every level of society. Just as an example, the average citizen - even rich citizens - can't bribe the average police officer out of a traffic stop in the West. The very richest might be able to use their lawyers or connections with judges to get a favorable outcome after the fact, but the corruption generally doesn't happen on the streets. Similarly, you can't expect to walk into a governmental office in the West and bribe clerks or low-level office managers to expedite processes or get a favorable result. In many countries, not only is this kind of corruption possible, it is often mandatory, as in you must bribe cops to avoid jail time if they single you out, even if you did nothing wrong, or you must bribe government clerks to do their job and process standard paperwork, or your registration or application will get "lost" in the system for ages. When people are indoctrinated with this kind of experience even at the lower levels of society, what becomes tolerable at the highest levels is even more insane. Even a Black person in the US generally doesn't have to bribe officials just to get a driver's licence.
they must mean “ be slightly corrupt like we are sometimes”
The West should do more at home, too. Too many judges and politicians are doing this out in the open because society doesn't hold them accountable.
Fucking lol.
Yep. As a Westerner, can our governments pick up some fucking slack on the corruption-front? That'd be welcome.
As a Canadian, the west should not throw stones while we live in glass houses. We currently have one of the most corrupt federal governments in our history, and the provincial government of Ontario is only second to that of Quebec, which is functionally a mob run province. And that province runs the federal government...
Pretty rich coming from the United States, where we have the most corrupt politician in our history running for president with a legitimate chance to win, and our Congress refusing to make it illegal for them to insider trade.
I think the worst thing he did was hold aid hostage until they fired the person investigating his son.
Huh? Who are you talking about?
Okay but the west is full of corruption and absolutely nothing is done. Hell corruption in the form of lobbying is written into fucking law in the U.S.
Corruption in the West is more "polite", more "hidden", and more confined to the upper echelons of power. A white person in America is unlikely to encounter outright corruption in their day to day lives. In many countries of the world, corruption is endemic in every facet and at every level of society. Just as an example, the average citizen - even rich citizens - can't bribe the average police officer out of a traffic stop in the West. The very richest might be able to use their lawyers or connections with judges to get a favorable outcome after the fact, but the corruption *generally* doesn't happen on the streets. Similarly, you can't expect to walk into a governmental office in the West and bribe clerks or low-level office managers to expedite processes or get a favorable result. In many countries, not only is this kind of corruption possible, it is often *mandatory*, as in *you must bribe cops* to avoid jail time if they single you out, even if you did nothing wrong, or you *must* bribe government clerks *to do their job* and process standard paperwork, or your registration or application will get "lost" in the system for ages. When people are indoctrinated with this kind of experience even at the lower levels of society, what becomes tolerable at the highest levels is even more insane. Even a Black person in the US generally doesn't have to bribe officials just to get a driver's licence.
Lol. Yes, no one in the US has to bribe someone to get a driver's license.
The levels of irony behind the US telling the Ukrainians to do more about corruption are of biblical proportions
The US is now far more corrupt
Just introduce Lobbys. Germany did it and there is no more corruption there! /s
As if the west isn't full of corruption, fucking hypocrites, we see it every day here in Canada too.
Pot calling the kettle black, but okay.
They should just make corruption legal like the US did. Call them lobbyists, and do like a "citizens united." EZ peezy.