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This is such an easy message to push out and the Democratic party has mostly failed to take advantage.
"Arms for Ukraine go to good paying American jobs and rebuild America's defense manufacturing base"
Do you support American manufacturing?
🏭🇺🇸✈️🚀🏭
Do you support promoting American interests
abroad? 🍟🍔👖🏀🎥
without having to commit American troops to fight wars overseas?
🫡🕊️✌️👍
Great!👍 Слава Україні! 🐈⬛🧜♀️🌻🧔🏻♂️🔱🧜♂️🐕
That's how we rocked it in WW2. We supplied the countries that fought the Axis powers, we shipped, guns, tanks, vehicles, planes, and ammo. And we enacted lend lease to countries that could afford it. All of this exploded the American manufacturing and arms industry.
Of course, that still came with risk. The Germans did attack American supply ships and warships prior to Pearl Harbor - a notable example being the destroyer USS Reuben James, which was destroyed by U-552 in October 1941.
And test their weapons in real battlefield conditions. Helping Ukraine with weapons is a ridiculously big win/win.
Americans, I urge you... please don't throw this away in November.
The MIC in the US is viewed favorably by almost no one. So we can say 'American jobs' all we want, but to a lot of people that reads as "MIC pulling the strings so they get richer." That's not the winning message.
The message is Russia taking Ukraine creates a scenario that makes Russian/American war more likely. That if the West had stood up to Hitler, WW2 could have been avoided and we are determined not to repeat that mistake. That Ukraine is a peaceful nation seeking the self representation and Democracy that the United States was founded on. That rogue terrorist states, even nuclear, will not be allowed to impose their tyranny on others.
The top 5 arms manufacturers made $8.6 billion in 2022. Apple made $98 billion. The MIC doesn't really exist. The argument is left over from when the democrats wanted to put the defense money into social programs after the fall of the Soviet Union. Now, the Democrats see clearly that defense is, once again, very important. In the 1950s, when President Eisenhower made his famous speech, Defense spending was about 15% of GDP. Now it is 3.2%.
> This is such an easy message to push out and the Democratic party has mostly failed to take advantage.
You're mistaking the media not picking up these stories for the Democrats not pushing it. They are, but there's no Democratic Party controlled media like there is for Republicans. Controversy gets clicks and headlines in the vein of "what we're doing is perfectly rational and well thought out" aren't controversial. The Democrats put out press releases and Biden says these things often, but if they're not repeated in the media then no one hears about them.
The global impact of the US electorate’s decision in November will be profound.
There is a *significant* risk to US and international democracy and security if Trump is re-elected… it’s simply not a risk worth taking.
Vote for decency and common sense… not for lies, gripes and retribution…
Yes, thank you. This is about the survival of a nation that an aggressive neighbour wants to eradicate. What party holds the White House is a petty issue in comparison. I hope many more American vote for humanity, for Ukraine's just cause, rather than for their preferred ideology. It's only four year and your preferred party has another chance to win back the presidency, Ukraine will not have any more chances if we let them down.
Even more: Arms to Ukraine would otherwise have to costly dismantled with US Tax Payers Money as they mostly send stuff that would have been discharged from the military anyway.
It's crazy this has to be explained to US citizens. Weapon industry is so huge, if you don't get that you basically don't understand your own country industry.
Yep. Reddit is complicit in the spread of disinformation, and all of the subreddits with accounts reposting Russian propaganda highlight this.
They're happy for the revenue.
One of the two major political parties has decided that Russian disinformation is helpful to their goal of single party rule and scales it from 11 to 12 in hopes that things can be just like Putin and his oligarchs for them.
Sometimes… the obvious needs to be stated. USA needs a Crash course in critical thinking… doesn’t matter if anyone likes it or sees it right. Needs to be done. Do it any possible way. May look like a fail …. Do it anyway. A 5% increase in critical thinking skills in this nation is absolutely massive. If they can teach it to grade school kids in Africa to combat myth and misinformation about hiv and make a huge difference… we can do it here with adults about general issues. Make it a sitcom on Netflix or some shit. Who cares… just do it and get people to watch…. Answer I care. We all should.
>Sometimes… the obvious needs to be stated. USA needs a Crash course in critical thinking
You can't reason your way out of an emotional decision. No amount of logic will ever make change their mind.
They don't care. There is no set of facts, logic or argumentation that will get through to them. It would be like trying to convince them that the color blue is better than the color red.
Lastly, Trump didn't create these people, he simply made it acceptable for them to outwardly show what they truly are. When he welcomed the far, far right into the Republican party, the rest of the republicans didn't kick him or those people out and go WTF, man? The went, "Oh, we can be ourselves now??? Cool"
The only potentially silver lining is that because Trump was so horrible, he polarized most of the country to the point that younger people aren't growing conservative as they age anymore. Historically, people tended to start more liberal, then become more conservative as they age. If the US can survive another 10-15 years, republicans might become irrelevant.
Then issue is that (right wing) politicians are fighting education and critical thinking tooth and nails.
A Netflix sitcom would be called "woke" and morons will be called to "boycott the communist company".
Then they will ban Algebra books because God wants us only to count up to 10, and square roots are used to groom the children.
The military spending in the US is about 3.4% of the GDP, and the US GDP is pretty significant. This, of course, includes salary as well, but excludes private weapons spending of which I don't have data. So basically weapons industry is huge, but on the big picture it is not that significant.
Source: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/266892/military-expenditure-as-percentage-of-gdp-in-highest-spending-countries/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/266892/military-expenditure-as-percentage-of-gdp-in-highest-spending-countries/)
This is the truth.
The whole "giving to Ukraine helps the US economy" argument is bogus. Europeans think it's clever, but it's not.
The reason to support Ukraine is a moral and ethical one, not economic.
It’s not all Americans. Those few congressmen that held aid to Ukraine up for a while represent only a small group of Americans. Even among conservatives, there are a lot of reasonable people. Then there are those die hard Trump supporters that follow his every word. So Putin has some dirt on Trump and he supports his criminal invasion, and the Trumpers get in line behind Trump like sheep.
Many many Americans understand what is at stake and support Ukraine, which is evident in the billions already spent in support, and they understand how that money is used.
Imagine somebody from outside of America looking at this presidential race, “You people have 330 million people to choose from, right? And from that vast selection, these two are your best choices to be your leader? How bad are the rest of you?”
As someone from outside of America I can tell you I don’t think that. We don’t do such ”best of the best” selection from our populace either in our elections. I thought younger people would be better myself but we’ve elected some truly fucking stupid children and I’m starting to think politics is like most everything else - you get better at it with experience and age.
What I don’t like about our own politics and America’s both is that people elect criminal narcissists because they spew easy solutions to complex problems.
What I also don’t like is how all of this in American politics literally affects me and my safety in Europe right now. And I have zero say in it.
It’s time for the EU to start spending on defence, regardless of politics. If we want to stay safe, we must be self-sufficient in defence. Having allies is a bonus.
Finnland is doing an amazig job. I hope we germans can learn from you, but i doubt it, to many idiots here believe everything Putins puppets from the right and the left are saying.
I am actually thinking about visiting other countries just for training, because germany has strong limitations right now.
I don’t know about the limitations MPK (Finnish semi-private defense training institute) has when it comes to foreigners in Finland but you could check. They offer military and civilian training in firearms, navigation, survival and more.
The training is likely in Finnish tho.
This was my first thought when I woke up this morning and saw how the debate went. I don't trust the US to vote sanely this time around so my main concern is that Europe is ready to step in on their behalf if Ukraine aid is cut off come January.
I'm not particularly worried about Putin taking anything other than Ukraine if that comes to pass, given how the EU military outclasses his remaining troops, but it would seal his fate if he loses the current conflict.
Can Europe though? While military spending and procurement is ramping up, they still have to balance their own geopolitical well-being alongside this conflict - something that takes tons of funds and support from the populace, which both might be in limited supply overall.
America is pretty much the only Western nation that can afford to lose significant amounts of some goods and still have plenty left over for other areas like the Pacific.
There's no way to tell yet, but I'd like to think Europe would prove to be more resilient than expected if Ukraine's exports were cut off.
It's all very dependent on the timing of a dozen different things. I'm hopeful that the incoming air power Ukraine is getting will tip the balance in their favour and let them gain some ground ahead of January, so even if the US election goes wrong they'll have a little bit of a buffer zone.
The reason politicians are narcissists is because no sane person seeks out power over others. The type of people that *want* to rule over others are not the type of people the others *want* to be ruled by.
Speaking foe myself and many other Aussies i speak with..we are more than baffled that anyone falls for trumps shit. The cultish adoration is just fucking weird asf. As for Biden, dudes old as shit, needs to retire, but, a really simple choice over the cult party.
People here in America need to remember they aren't voting for one person, they are voting for their entire administration. Biden may be old but he'll at least put competent people in the right place for the next 4 years. Trump is a dumpster fire and he has zero clue how to run anything in general. He bankrupted a fucking casino for fucks sake. A CASINO!!!
Anyone who has a half decent view of US politics knows that decent candidates no longer work in the US. It's a full on shit show. The only decent (almost) candidate they've had in years was Bernie, but he was too much of a human being to even have a chance.
US politics is a marketing campaign with no actual link to policy right now. And since that's what the people seem to want right now, that not going to change.
More like most of Sanders’ supporters didn’t support him with votes. They campaigned and yelled, but didn’t perform at the ballot box when nominations came around.
That's not entirely true.
He was pushed out by both mass media (allocated air time) and the DNC before primaries. He was cucked on both sides of the coin.
I fucking hate my country.
From afar that coin is the biggest problem you guys have. You are not likely going to change it to a dice either as that would mean the current sides of that coin wouldn’t have as much money and power, and you would have to learn to compromise instead of the winner takes all model you so dearly seem to love. I guess the real votes that matter are the smaller ones happening inside the two parties.
You don't have 330 million to choose from though? Only natural born citizens over 35 can run for president. 15% of the US population is foreign born, and around 60% of the population is at least 35. Assuming the foreign born population has an equal age distribution, that leaves 168 million candidates. So about half the US population.
Now that's a lot of people. I'd be willing to bet my savings that I can find at least 1000 amazing presidents in that group. And since I'm not American, I do have actual savings.
You know what would be interesting, if there was an institution to train people to become presidents, with all the focus on doing the job of a US president instead of the narcissistic crap that goes with running a marketing campaign. Even if you don't run for president you'd have the training to lead a nation and all the knowledge that entails. Like what all our institutions do and for they fit in society. Or what all our industries are and how they fit in the bigger picture.
We kind of have that in the UK, a disturbing number of our Prime Ministers have come through Eton College, which sees itself as educating future leaders. It hasn't done us very well tbh.
I used to drink in Windsor a lot back in the days I lived and worked in Slough (it was worth the £5 taxi to drink there over Slough town center!) and used to come across these toff boys on the regular on Friday nights.
Why anyone would trust running the country to those rude, entitled, coke fuelled wan\*ers when they couldn't even grasp basic social and pub etiquette is beyond me...
Burning Eton to the ground would be a public service as far as I'm concerned.
> I prefer my pig playing the part of the sausage inside the bun, not the other way around...
American here. Can you explain that in terms of hamburgers and (American) football fields?
I'd rather eat the hamburger between the buns rather than playing the part of the buns whilst being hamburglered by one of the people on the handegg field...
I'm probably gonna be downvoted like hell for this, but I did not think Biden did well in this debate.
Really worried for the future, but for Ukraine's sake I'm riding with Biden.
That's where I'm at with it: I just hope we get through this cycle with an actual democracy intact and hope we get better (and frankly younger) candidates next time.
Shouldn't Newsom fix his own state before trying to run the country? I like governors as presidential candidates because you get to see how they did in a smaller-scale executive role, but they should be held accountable both for the good and bad things they did in that role. I don't think California has been doing all that great lately.
Rather an old man who listens to his advisers and can see the larger picture than a self absorbed narcissist clown who failed to listen to any advice and fired staff to employ friends and family. Outsiders view not American.
>I did not think Biden did well in this debate.
It was a trainwreck for Biden, but I cannot see myself voting for the Mango Mussolini.
If Trump wins, Ukraine will lose!
There is some logic to suggesting that letting the idiots make a big deal out of something that isn’t…. Wastes their time and not ours… and I’m not saying you are an idiot. But you know who is.
Lots of people forget that Biden legitimately has a studdering problem. He's had it since a young age, though im not sure how reflective that was to his performance. I, for one, also think he did poorly in the debate, but his competition is the definition of lunacy.
This. And most importantly… does he need the psychomotor speed (reaction time) of a drag racer? No. Others down the chain of command do. The wisdom… yes. And that is not in question. Most certainly has it.
It also important to consider that a president also has a team who needs to be qualified.
(Also, if Trump wins, they will replace large parts of the political structure with loyal sycophants)
There is a massive astroturfing campaign going on right now. I'm assuming that's why reddit choked earlier.
Everyone with half a brain who knows about the political situation knows he has a stutter. All of a sudden every single person is freaking out about it on reddit without a single comment explaining the stutter? Yeah fucking right.
I'm here assuming you're at least somewhat real for acknowledging it. I too thought he did poorly but that's *it.* It's peanuts compared to the nihilism being thrown around.
It's being reitterated a lot that he didn't do well.
Which is true, if you view it as a performance and take appearance and speech into account.
If you base it solely on what was said, Biden was devastating.
He exposed his opponent as having no policies or solutions, and showed he was a rambling moron, who never answered a question and made up statistics and opinions of the people.
I see it mostly as the medias fault. Instead of focusing on Trumps constant lies and lack of policy, they focus on Biden's mumbling and appearance.
That's what you get when a nation projects itself as leader and defender of the free world. When you're always taught (a show of) strength is more important than words. People focus on presentation more than what's said. It doesn't help that American media has been treating politics as a TV show for the last decade or so either
Thank you. Have been mentioning this myself and have seen few others saying same. Has had this since childhood…. And yet became senator at young age. And I’d add that If anyone knows how to use such “weakness” to advantage… probably him. I think we need to be careful watching him. He’s not stupid. He knows what he’s doing
American here. You’re telling us - we have millions and millions of people in this country that are eligible to run for president and this is the best we can come up with? It’s disappointing. 🤷♀️
The end-result reality of a 2-party duopoly. It was always going to end this way eventually, especially as the elite hold onto power even unto their dying breathe.
The issue is they both sounded like idiots 4 years ago, but Trump is just the same idiot and Biden is markedly worse. November will be a bloodbath if he doesn't turn it around next debate, if it even happens.
Biden may be old and not at his prime.
But he has experience and an understanding of what is required of America.
He is a statesman whose own son fought in the gulf war. America needs his wisdom and guidance in these difficult times.
Orange satan will destroy America. There is no alternative.
A vote for biden is a vote for America, American global leadership and American values. Voting for fat marmalade man is a vote for facism, failure and a vote to destroy America.
You’re not alone. I’m progressive and so are most of my friends, but we all agree it was not his best performance and he missed so many easy points. I hope we have younger candidates next year. Will still vote for Biden of course, but man was that stressful to watch.
> not his best performance and he missed so many easy points.
In terms of the goal of increasing your chances of winning the election, I don't think there's been a worse presidential debate performance in US history. I can't imagine it would have been nearly as bad of a hit for him to just refuse to debate on the grounds that Trump is a clown or something.
Hate Trump's debate style all you want; it's worked well for him on the metrics that matter in the past. Biden in his current condition is pretty much an optimal opponent from Trump's perspective. He did so poorly I strongly suspect him dying today would be the most likely way for Trump to lose in November.
Debates looked like arguing between two old men with severe dementia
US needs younger candidates, but I am not sure if there are younger candidates who are not simping for Russia or for isolationism
You know, there is a minimum age to be a president, and at the time the constitution was written, people didn’t really live to geriatric ages… maybe it’s time to amend ye old beautiful document and put an age cap on presidential candidates?
Maybe Pete Buttigieg or Gavin Newsom if either guy was interested in the Democratic nomination spot?
The former would be eaten alive though in the Deep South since he is gay.
> I'm probably gonna be downvoted like hell for this
Democrats are not the ones who have a problem acknowledging reality, so no, no one is going to downvote you for stating the obvious truth.
Its crazy that a presidential candidate could be on stage at the debate and basically either straight out lie or just boast with commonplaces and somehow people think the dude won the debate…
Shows everything wrong with politics… the Message and content seems to mean nothing
The fact right wing American voters are either too genuinely stupid or wilfully ignorant to understand this money is literally keeping US jobs alive and feeding the US military industry at a time where the US isnt ACTIVELY in a boots on the ground war is fucking WILD to me.
We're talking tens of millions of Americans with the intelligence of a sea cucumber.
yep, the only reason they are not invading is because Lukashenko is Putin's puppet and no need to start a war when you already control the government. Pretty much the same thing he wanted to happen in Ukraine before the war
Truth with a stutter from a person who surrounds himself with competent advisors vs a pathological liar who surrounds himself with kleptocracy.
The choice is clear. Rally any American voter you know behind Joe.
We are trying, my god is misinformation doing a lot of damage. I would take senile all day over a compuslive lying narcissist that is completely compromised by foreign powers, especially Putin.
I like Mangos and this comparison is making me like them less. Can we go with something else? Orange Oppressor? I guess that makes him sound cool, which is not good. Orange Ogre? Orange Orc-appeaser?
Welcome to American politics, especially when it comes around to presidential debates. This goes back to Kennedy vs Nixon as we Americans expect our leader to speak well and look good for the camera.
When tRumpy says he will end the war he means he will hand everything to putin on a silver platter. tRump is not only bad for America but he's bad for Ukraine and the entire world.
Trump will not help Ukraine. He is Putin’s puppet. He will say whatever he can to get elected then do whatever he wants. He is literally a convicted felon.
When you get the time, check out Project 2025. It's not just trump. There are dangerous backers who will use this baffoon to wreak havoc on the US and world.
With Biden, US aid will continue. With Trump, there's a good chance aid will be cut off. This should be all that matters to the Europeans mocking Biden on here.
it's possible if north Korean troops start making inroads into actual combat rolls. We'll see. The tit-for-tat incremental increase means that the usa is loosening contractor rolls in Ukraine, so more specialist training will be had which will be sorely appreciated.
That's ironic considering in this same debate Trump said he talked to Putin before Putin started the war and that it was his dream to invade Ukraine: [https://newrepublic.com/post/183240/trump-spoke-putin-dream-invade-ukraine](https://newrepublic.com/post/183240/trump-spoke-putin-dream-invade-ukraine)
thing about lies is, there's no emotional impact within the liars brain circuits. it makes them hard to remember. Thing about being a conman and narcissist, is that isn't a problem anyway so here we go..
President is an institution, not a personality, stop treating it as 1 man game and you will have way easier time choosing, look what people surround your candidate and choose from that.
Please, don´t downvote me.
I can't understand with Right wing is defending Ruzzia. (I'm right wing but don't vote to Trump).
Here in Brazil, our Right politicians are closed with Trump and Ruzzia, they call Ukraine as "Europe degradation" and Ruzzia will make Europe great again (?)
They can't see that Russia is trying to rebuild the SSSR? How can I be a right wing supporter if I'm supporting a country that wants to rebuild the most Socialist place on modern era?
Ignore socialism for a moment. That's a red herring.
Look at how Russia is actually behaving: they are an authoritarian oligarchy, not socialist. They want more land and people to exploit for more money, and Putin specifically wants to relive the glory days of the USSR (remember he was a KGB officer then, and was happy under Soviet rule).
The right wing throughout the world, at its extreme, wants the same, more authoritarianism, more rich benefactors to prop up their party, and to succeed at home they want to see their way of doing things work elsewhere, so they prop each other up.
Any 'right wingers' propping up Russia and Trump are the same, they aren't the 'traditional' right wing, they are the authoritarians trying to take over, and in too many cases succeeding. They are using many tools to do so, including fear of socialism.
How you vote, your political beliefs are up to you, but I strongly suggest you pay attention to who is supporting Trump and Russia, and work against those parties - even if it means voting more left than you want. Because if the authoritarians gain power and can hold it long enough, your vote will cease to have meaning.
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This is such an easy message to push out and the Democratic party has mostly failed to take advantage. "Arms for Ukraine go to good paying American jobs and rebuild America's defense manufacturing base"
Do you support American manufacturing? 🏭🇺🇸✈️🚀🏭 Do you support promoting American interests abroad? 🍟🍔👖🏀🎥 without having to commit American troops to fight wars overseas? 🫡🕊️✌️👍 Great!👍 Слава Україні! 🐈⬛🧜♀️🌻🧔🏻♂️🔱🧜♂️🐕
That's how we rocked it in WW2. We supplied the countries that fought the Axis powers, we shipped, guns, tanks, vehicles, planes, and ammo. And we enacted lend lease to countries that could afford it. All of this exploded the American manufacturing and arms industry.
Fun note, list repayment was 2006.
And than you did the spartanian move in Normandy. I have so much respect for your heros. Thank you!
Of course, that still came with risk. The Germans did attack American supply ships and warships prior to Pearl Harbor - a notable example being the destroyer USS Reuben James, which was destroyed by U-552 in October 1941.
I am also interested in having Ukraine as a trading partner and ally
Героям Слава
Funny thing is Trump suggested we do lend-lease. He'll say whatever he thinks you want to hear.
2/3 of Ukraine aid is material. 1/3 is cash money.
And the US army gets to get shit of their old crap by sending it to Ukraine are get new stuff to replace it
And test their weapons in real battlefield conditions. Helping Ukraine with weapons is a ridiculously big win/win. Americans, I urge you... please don't throw this away in November.
Considering a good chunk of the American army if there to counter ruzzia it's sad they don't go all in with support..
The MIC in the US is viewed favorably by almost no one. So we can say 'American jobs' all we want, but to a lot of people that reads as "MIC pulling the strings so they get richer." That's not the winning message. The message is Russia taking Ukraine creates a scenario that makes Russian/American war more likely. That if the West had stood up to Hitler, WW2 could have been avoided and we are determined not to repeat that mistake. That Ukraine is a peaceful nation seeking the self representation and Democracy that the United States was founded on. That rogue terrorist states, even nuclear, will not be allowed to impose their tyranny on others.
If the West wants to avoid repeating its previous mistakes, we'd better get our collective arses into gear, while there's still time.
The top 5 arms manufacturers made $8.6 billion in 2022. Apple made $98 billion. The MIC doesn't really exist. The argument is left over from when the democrats wanted to put the defense money into social programs after the fall of the Soviet Union. Now, the Democrats see clearly that defense is, once again, very important. In the 1950s, when President Eisenhower made his famous speech, Defense spending was about 15% of GDP. Now it is 3.2%.
Well said 👍👍
> This is such an easy message to push out and the Democratic party has mostly failed to take advantage. You're mistaking the media not picking up these stories for the Democrats not pushing it. They are, but there's no Democratic Party controlled media like there is for Republicans. Controversy gets clicks and headlines in the vein of "what we're doing is perfectly rational and well thought out" aren't controversial. The Democrats put out press releases and Biden says these things often, but if they're not repeated in the media then no one hears about them.
Sad truth. I've voted red or independent my whole life. This time around Biden has my vote.
Thank you
The global impact of the US electorate’s decision in November will be profound. There is a *significant* risk to US and international democracy and security if Trump is re-elected… it’s simply not a risk worth taking. Vote for decency and common sense… not for lies, gripes and retribution…
Yes, thank you. This is about the survival of a nation that an aggressive neighbour wants to eradicate. What party holds the White House is a petty issue in comparison. I hope many more American vote for humanity, for Ukraine's just cause, rather than for their preferred ideology. It's only four year and your preferred party has another chance to win back the presidency, Ukraine will not have any more chances if we let them down.
Even more: Arms to Ukraine would otherwise have to costly dismantled with US Tax Payers Money as they mostly send stuff that would have been discharged from the military anyway.
The moderator for this debate was pitching pro-GOP pro-Putin questions anyway, every question was framed for Trump's benefit. It's utterly ridiculous.
It's crazy this has to be explained to US citizens. Weapon industry is so huge, if you don't get that you basically don't understand your own country industry.
russian disinformation has been scaled to 11 here since the invasion
That was the whole point of the API change, so they could do away with the bot detector.
Yep. Reddit is complicit in the spread of disinformation, and all of the subreddits with accounts reposting Russian propaganda highlight this. They're happy for the revenue.
I'd argue it started closer to around 2014 when the war really started after the Maidan revolution
One of the two major political parties has decided that Russian disinformation is helpful to their goal of single party rule and scales it from 11 to 12 in hopes that things can be just like Putin and his oligarchs for them.
You have to tell them how big it is in football fields and McDonalds burgers.
Hey shut up man. How many though?
Just 80,000 football burgers cuz inflation
Oof that's so real.
Sometimes… the obvious needs to be stated. USA needs a Crash course in critical thinking… doesn’t matter if anyone likes it or sees it right. Needs to be done. Do it any possible way. May look like a fail …. Do it anyway. A 5% increase in critical thinking skills in this nation is absolutely massive. If they can teach it to grade school kids in Africa to combat myth and misinformation about hiv and make a huge difference… we can do it here with adults about general issues. Make it a sitcom on Netflix or some shit. Who cares… just do it and get people to watch…. Answer I care. We all should.
>Sometimes… the obvious needs to be stated. USA needs a Crash course in critical thinking You can't reason your way out of an emotional decision. No amount of logic will ever make change their mind. They don't care. There is no set of facts, logic or argumentation that will get through to them. It would be like trying to convince them that the color blue is better than the color red. Lastly, Trump didn't create these people, he simply made it acceptable for them to outwardly show what they truly are. When he welcomed the far, far right into the Republican party, the rest of the republicans didn't kick him or those people out and go WTF, man? The went, "Oh, we can be ourselves now??? Cool" The only potentially silver lining is that because Trump was so horrible, he polarized most of the country to the point that younger people aren't growing conservative as they age anymore. Historically, people tended to start more liberal, then become more conservative as they age. If the US can survive another 10-15 years, republicans might become irrelevant.
Then issue is that (right wing) politicians are fighting education and critical thinking tooth and nails. A Netflix sitcom would be called "woke" and morons will be called to "boycott the communist company". Then they will ban Algebra books because God wants us only to count up to 10, and square roots are used to groom the children.
That's the elephant in the room here. How actually uneducated and unworldly many Americans and indeed, westerners are.
The military spending in the US is about 3.4% of the GDP, and the US GDP is pretty significant. This, of course, includes salary as well, but excludes private weapons spending of which I don't have data. So basically weapons industry is huge, but on the big picture it is not that significant. Source: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/266892/military-expenditure-as-percentage-of-gdp-in-highest-spending-countries/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/266892/military-expenditure-as-percentage-of-gdp-in-highest-spending-countries/)
This is the truth. The whole "giving to Ukraine helps the US economy" argument is bogus. Europeans think it's clever, but it's not. The reason to support Ukraine is a moral and ethical one, not economic.
It’s not all Americans. Those few congressmen that held aid to Ukraine up for a while represent only a small group of Americans. Even among conservatives, there are a lot of reasonable people. Then there are those die hard Trump supporters that follow his every word. So Putin has some dirt on Trump and he supports his criminal invasion, and the Trumpers get in line behind Trump like sheep. Many many Americans understand what is at stake and support Ukraine, which is evident in the billions already spent in support, and they understand how that money is used.
Why don’t weapons manufacturers advertise? Lol
They do; just not to you.
They don't need to, they lobby politicians instead.
They do. Just saw a Lockheed Martin advertisement.
Imagine somebody from outside of America looking at this presidential race, “You people have 330 million people to choose from, right? And from that vast selection, these two are your best choices to be your leader? How bad are the rest of you?”
As someone from outside of America I can tell you I don’t think that. We don’t do such ”best of the best” selection from our populace either in our elections. I thought younger people would be better myself but we’ve elected some truly fucking stupid children and I’m starting to think politics is like most everything else - you get better at it with experience and age. What I don’t like about our own politics and America’s both is that people elect criminal narcissists because they spew easy solutions to complex problems. What I also don’t like is how all of this in American politics literally affects me and my safety in Europe right now. And I have zero say in it.
It’s time for the EU to start spending on defence, regardless of politics. If we want to stay safe, we must be self-sufficient in defence. Having allies is a bonus.
Definitely. And in my country, Finland, we have for decades. But we’re only 5milllion people.
Finnland is doing an amazig job. I hope we germans can learn from you, but i doubt it, to many idiots here believe everything Putins puppets from the right and the left are saying. I am actually thinking about visiting other countries just for training, because germany has strong limitations right now.
I don’t know about the limitations MPK (Finnish semi-private defense training institute) has when it comes to foreigners in Finland but you could check. They offer military and civilian training in firearms, navigation, survival and more. The training is likely in Finnish tho.
Start making more Finnish people!
If you want to make more Finnish people, you have to start making more people finish 😉
This was my first thought when I woke up this morning and saw how the debate went. I don't trust the US to vote sanely this time around so my main concern is that Europe is ready to step in on their behalf if Ukraine aid is cut off come January. I'm not particularly worried about Putin taking anything other than Ukraine if that comes to pass, given how the EU military outclasses his remaining troops, but it would seal his fate if he loses the current conflict.
Can Europe though? While military spending and procurement is ramping up, they still have to balance their own geopolitical well-being alongside this conflict - something that takes tons of funds and support from the populace, which both might be in limited supply overall. America is pretty much the only Western nation that can afford to lose significant amounts of some goods and still have plenty left over for other areas like the Pacific.
There's no way to tell yet, but I'd like to think Europe would prove to be more resilient than expected if Ukraine's exports were cut off. It's all very dependent on the timing of a dozen different things. I'm hopeful that the incoming air power Ukraine is getting will tip the balance in their favour and let them gain some ground ahead of January, so even if the US election goes wrong they'll have a little bit of a buffer zone.
We as in Europe should really step up military wise and get our act together.
The reason politicians are narcissists is because no sane person seeks out power over others. The type of people that *want* to rule over others are not the type of people the others *want* to be ruled by.
Speaking foe myself and many other Aussies i speak with..we are more than baffled that anyone falls for trumps shit. The cultish adoration is just fucking weird asf. As for Biden, dudes old as shit, needs to retire, but, a really simple choice over the cult party.
People here in America need to remember they aren't voting for one person, they are voting for their entire administration. Biden may be old but he'll at least put competent people in the right place for the next 4 years. Trump is a dumpster fire and he has zero clue how to run anything in general. He bankrupted a fucking casino for fucks sake. A CASINO!!!
At least 4 casinos actually
and don't forget a court found him to have raped a woman and he's convicted of 34 felonies, and ...
I mean we can't talk, we fell for scott morrisons shit and theres a good chance we might fall for duttons shit too.
You guys gave us Rupert. What are you talking about?
Dude Australia can't say shit we had Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison.
Look, we have our clown Bardella in France as well, and some people are convinced by a guy that is aware of nothing, he just says things randomly.
Seditious, treasonous evil versus old with a competent cabinet. Shit is still simple. Only one choice.
Anyone who has a half decent view of US politics knows that decent candidates no longer work in the US. It's a full on shit show. The only decent (almost) candidate they've had in years was Bernie, but he was too much of a human being to even have a chance. US politics is a marketing campaign with no actual link to policy right now. And since that's what the people seem to want right now, that not going to change.
More like most of Sanders’ supporters didn’t support him with votes. They campaigned and yelled, but didn’t perform at the ballot box when nominations came around.
That's not entirely true. He was pushed out by both mass media (allocated air time) and the DNC before primaries. He was cucked on both sides of the coin. I fucking hate my country.
From afar that coin is the biggest problem you guys have. You are not likely going to change it to a dice either as that would mean the current sides of that coin wouldn’t have as much money and power, and you would have to learn to compromise instead of the winner takes all model you so dearly seem to love. I guess the real votes that matter are the smaller ones happening inside the two parties.
The founding fathers warned us about a 2 party system... then went and set the foundation for a 2 party system.
Yea, as they created a system that naturally coalesces around two parties. We had political parties almost immediately.
Amusingly enough, they were first established by Founding Fathers: Adams with his Federalists and Jefferson with his Democratic-Republicans.
You don't have 330 million to choose from though? Only natural born citizens over 35 can run for president. 15% of the US population is foreign born, and around 60% of the population is at least 35. Assuming the foreign born population has an equal age distribution, that leaves 168 million candidates. So about half the US population. Now that's a lot of people. I'd be willing to bet my savings that I can find at least 1000 amazing presidents in that group. And since I'm not American, I do have actual savings.
You know what would be interesting, if there was an institution to train people to become presidents, with all the focus on doing the job of a US president instead of the narcissistic crap that goes with running a marketing campaign. Even if you don't run for president you'd have the training to lead a nation and all the knowledge that entails. Like what all our institutions do and for they fit in society. Or what all our industries are and how they fit in the bigger picture.
We kind of have that in the UK, a disturbing number of our Prime Ministers have come through Eton College, which sees itself as educating future leaders. It hasn't done us very well tbh.
I used to drink in Windsor a lot back in the days I lived and worked in Slough (it was worth the £5 taxi to drink there over Slough town center!) and used to come across these toff boys on the regular on Friday nights. Why anyone would trust running the country to those rude, entitled, coke fuelled wan\*ers when they couldn't even grasp basic social and pub etiquette is beyond me... Burning Eton to the ground would be a public service as far as I'm concerned.
But on the upside, your love of pigs is legendary now.
I prefer my pig playing the part of the sausage inside the bun, not the other way around...
> I prefer my pig playing the part of the sausage inside the bun, not the other way around... American here. Can you explain that in terms of hamburgers and (American) football fields?
I'd rather eat the hamburger between the buns rather than playing the part of the buns whilst being hamburglered by one of the people on the handegg field...
> handegg 😆
I'm probably gonna be downvoted like hell for this, but I did not think Biden did well in this debate. Really worried for the future, but for Ukraine's sake I'm riding with Biden.
I think the next cycle we will see much younger candidates.
let's fucking hope so
Those two may won't even be alive by that time anyway..
If you want another cycle, Biden is the better choice. The other guy seems to have trouble with that.
That's where I'm at with it: I just hope we get through this cycle with an actual democracy intact and hope we get better (and frankly younger) candidates next time.
So candidates in their prime 70's?
early 60s, pretty probable that Newsom will run in 28
> Newsom He looks as someone straight out of a televised church ceremonial
Shouldn't Newsom fix his own state before trying to run the country? I like governors as presidential candidates because you get to see how they did in a smaller-scale executive role, but they should be held accountable both for the good and bad things they did in that role. I don't think California has been doing all that great lately.
yeah all states should be problem free before their governors can run
what's the competition, texas?
For the debates, they will wheel two hospice beds onto the stage, with ventilators, heart monitors, and everything.
Shit maybe they can invent the Futurama head in jars technology and keep wheeling their heads out for the next few centuries.
Arooooo
Aroooooo. It really has come to that after watching this debate.
Well, Carted did only one presidential term, he will be eligible for the second one!
Rather an old man who listens to his advisers and can see the larger picture than a self absorbed narcissist clown who failed to listen to any advice and fired staff to employ friends and family. Outsiders view not American.
Not just “listens to his advisors” but, “IS NOT ACTIVELY RAIDING THE HEN HOUSE”
As an American I agree with you.
This shit right fucking here. Thank you 🙏 You share the view of this proud American and many others
>I did not think Biden did well in this debate. It was a trainwreck for Biden, but I cannot see myself voting for the Mango Mussolini. If Trump wins, Ukraine will lose!
Not just Ukraine.
Good point.
There is some logic to suggesting that letting the idiots make a big deal out of something that isn’t…. Wastes their time and not ours… and I’m not saying you are an idiot. But you know who is.
Lots of people forget that Biden legitimately has a studdering problem. He's had it since a young age, though im not sure how reflective that was to his performance. I, for one, also think he did poorly in the debate, but his competition is the definition of lunacy.
My three thoughts exactly tonight. I would also add, I wouldn't care if he was in a chair with a drool cup - he's still better choice than the felon!!
This. And most importantly… does he need the psychomotor speed (reaction time) of a drag racer? No. Others down the chain of command do. The wisdom… yes. And that is not in question. Most certainly has it.
It also important to consider that a president also has a team who needs to be qualified. (Also, if Trump wins, they will replace large parts of the political structure with loyal sycophants)
There is a massive astroturfing campaign going on right now. I'm assuming that's why reddit choked earlier. Everyone with half a brain who knows about the political situation knows he has a stutter. All of a sudden every single person is freaking out about it on reddit without a single comment explaining the stutter? Yeah fucking right. I'm here assuming you're at least somewhat real for acknowledging it. I too thought he did poorly but that's *it.* It's peanuts compared to the nihilism being thrown around.
I agree with this comment.
It's being reitterated a lot that he didn't do well. Which is true, if you view it as a performance and take appearance and speech into account. If you base it solely on what was said, Biden was devastating. He exposed his opponent as having no policies or solutions, and showed he was a rambling moron, who never answered a question and made up statistics and opinions of the people. I see it mostly as the medias fault. Instead of focusing on Trumps constant lies and lack of policy, they focus on Biden's mumbling and appearance.
That's what you get when a nation projects itself as leader and defender of the free world. When you're always taught (a show of) strength is more important than words. People focus on presentation more than what's said. It doesn't help that American media has been treating politics as a TV show for the last decade or so either
Thank you. Have been mentioning this myself and have seen few others saying same. Has had this since childhood…. And yet became senator at young age. And I’d add that If anyone knows how to use such “weakness” to advantage… probably him. I think we need to be careful watching him. He’s not stupid. He knows what he’s doing
There's been a concentrated effort in the past month to spread falsehoods about Biden's mental acuity. See the American Fox News company.
Neither did well. They both sounded like idiots
This is my takeaway as well. I don't envy the position the American people are in with this upcoming election.
The 2 party system sucks
We need to go to single transferable vote, the two part system is almost guaranteed with a first past the post voting system.
American here. You’re telling us - we have millions and millions of people in this country that are eligible to run for president and this is the best we can come up with? It’s disappointing. 🤷♀️
I'm telling you that just looking good on tv isn't the solution.
I’m ashamed to be an American right now.
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The end-result reality of a 2-party duopoly. It was always going to end this way eventually, especially as the elite hold onto power even unto their dying breathe.
American voting system is just stupid
The issue is they both sounded like idiots 4 years ago, but Trump is just the same idiot and Biden is markedly worse. November will be a bloodbath if he doesn't turn it around next debate, if it even happens.
Biden did terribly. I am voting for him, but he isn't the best choice to go against the Putin loving orange dictator.
Biden may be old and not at his prime. But he has experience and an understanding of what is required of America. He is a statesman whose own son fought in the gulf war. America needs his wisdom and guidance in these difficult times. Orange satan will destroy America. There is no alternative. A vote for biden is a vote for America, American global leadership and American values. Voting for fat marmalade man is a vote for facism, failure and a vote to destroy America.
You’re not alone. I’m progressive and so are most of my friends, but we all agree it was not his best performance and he missed so many easy points. I hope we have younger candidates next year. Will still vote for Biden of course, but man was that stressful to watch.
> not his best performance and he missed so many easy points. In terms of the goal of increasing your chances of winning the election, I don't think there's been a worse presidential debate performance in US history. I can't imagine it would have been nearly as bad of a hit for him to just refuse to debate on the grounds that Trump is a clown or something. Hate Trump's debate style all you want; it's worked well for him on the metrics that matter in the past. Biden in his current condition is pretty much an optimal opponent from Trump's perspective. He did so poorly I strongly suspect him dying today would be the most likely way for Trump to lose in November.
I mean the metrics being "people watching a reality tv show enjoyed the tv show"
I know! Every silence or trailing off had me on pins and needles. Will still vote for Biden either way.
Shouldn’t be a remotely controversial take no matter who you’re voting for.
Debates looked like arguing between two old men with severe dementia US needs younger candidates, but I am not sure if there are younger candidates who are not simping for Russia or for isolationism
You know, there is a minimum age to be a president, and at the time the constitution was written, people didn’t really live to geriatric ages… maybe it’s time to amend ye old beautiful document and put an age cap on presidential candidates?
Yes. 70. And while we are at it, term limits on congress.
Maybe Pete Buttigieg or Gavin Newsom if either guy was interested in the Democratic nomination spot? The former would be eaten alive though in the Deep South since he is gay.
Good thing he’s done a good job at being the president. He’s not running to be the captain of the debate team
> I'm probably gonna be downvoted like hell for this Democrats are not the ones who have a problem acknowledging reality, so no, no one is going to downvote you for stating the obvious truth.
The panel on CNN, largest supporter of the democratic party, agreed with you as well. Don’t worry.
I’m with Biden. He supports Ukraine. 🇺🇦
Being President is an intensive job, one that should only be done by someone of working age.
well both parties are doing everything in their power to make us have to work til we die, so I guess these candidates are rather fitting.
The reason Drumpf got through it was he didn't actually do any work.
Yes! Get us someone who isn’t a god damn boomer ffs!!
You have to convince the voting base that rationale. There are multiple candidates up for nomination - they all lost to the older guys.
Very much agreed. Their thinking is 20 years behind at lest.
Biden is actually silent generation and the only president from there ever.
In my opinion the maximum age for a presidential candidate should be 4 years below retirement age.
Fk trumpaloompa!
I boycotted watching this debate because I just can't stand listening to that fat, orange lying prick.
I tried my best to watch this debate. I just can't stand von shitznpantz so much, his voice actually brings my BP up.
Its crazy that a presidential candidate could be on stage at the debate and basically either straight out lie or just boast with commonplaces and somehow people think the dude won the debate… Shows everything wrong with politics… the Message and content seems to mean nothing
If he says this war shouldn’t have started 100s of times when does it make our current situation different?
The fact right wing American voters are either too genuinely stupid or wilfully ignorant to understand this money is literally keeping US jobs alive and feeding the US military industry at a time where the US isnt ACTIVELY in a boots on the ground war is fucking WILD to me. We're talking tens of millions of Americans with the intelligence of a sea cucumber.
And for a fraction of the normal military budget Russia is basically on its knees
Putin already conquered Belarus...
yep, the only reason they are not invading is because Lukashenko is Putin's puppet and no need to start a war when you already control the government. Pretty much the same thing he wanted to happen in Ukraine before the war
Truth with a stutter from a person who surrounds himself with competent advisors vs a pathological liar who surrounds himself with kleptocracy. The choice is clear. Rally any American voter you know behind Joe.
Yikes come on brother and sisters do the right thing
We are trying, my god is misinformation doing a lot of damage. I would take senile all day over a compuslive lying narcissist that is completely compromised by foreign powers, especially Putin.
A choice between a doddery old guy who looks like he just shit himself or the Mango Mussolini who looks like he’d shit on everyone else!
I like Mangos and this comparison is making me like them less. Can we go with something else? Orange Oppressor? I guess that makes him sound cool, which is not good. Orange Ogre? Orange Orc-appeaser?
Tangerine Tyrant?
Felonious Trump?
Best one so far!
We are going to judge Biden over 90 minutes and totally forget all the great things he's done the past 3.5 years?
Welcome to American politics, especially when it comes around to presidential debates. This goes back to Kennedy vs Nixon as we Americans expect our leader to speak well and look good for the camera.
When tRumpy says he will end the war he means he will hand everything to putin on a silver platter. tRump is not only bad for America but he's bad for Ukraine and the entire world.
I agree, really worried for Ukraine, especially after last nights debate. Fuck.
VOTE FOR BIDEN. Love Europe
Trump will not help Ukraine. He is Putin’s puppet. He will say whatever he can to get elected then do whatever he wants. He is literally a convicted felon.
When you get the time, check out Project 2025. It's not just trump. There are dangerous backers who will use this baffoon to wreak havoc on the US and world.
As an American, I can honestly tell you that Americans do not understand this. It's WAY above their head.
We don’t give them money for weapons, we give them weapons we already paid for when we first acquired them
Yup. America gets Shiney new stuff. Ukraine gets the old stuff that works perfectly fine. It's a win all the way around.
I just hope that regardless of the outcome of the race, weapons and aid will still be given to ukraine (or better yet, more meaningful interventions)
With Biden, US aid will continue. With Trump, there's a good chance aid will be cut off. This should be all that matters to the Europeans mocking Biden on here.
it's possible if north Korean troops start making inroads into actual combat rolls. We'll see. The tit-for-tat incremental increase means that the usa is loosening contractor rolls in Ukraine, so more specialist training will be had which will be sorely appreciated.
That's ironic considering in this same debate Trump said he talked to Putin before Putin started the war and that it was his dream to invade Ukraine: [https://newrepublic.com/post/183240/trump-spoke-putin-dream-invade-ukraine](https://newrepublic.com/post/183240/trump-spoke-putin-dream-invade-ukraine)
thing about lies is, there's no emotional impact within the liars brain circuits. it makes them hard to remember. Thing about being a conman and narcissist, is that isn't a problem anyway so here we go..
A moment prior to this, I told my wife that they really need to explain that it's not a big bag of money. I was pleased by this.
Biden could literally push the "Weapons made in the US, by Americans with good paying jobs are what is being sent" narrative and gain points.
I'd rather them send missiles or dollars more than American lives for as long as possible. Is a sentiment most can get behind
I really hate to say this but...that may be the most coherent answer I've ever heard Biden give.
President is an institution, not a personality, stop treating it as 1 man game and you will have way easier time choosing, look what people surround your candidate and choose from that.
Biden is 100% right, if you think you won't have to go to war at some point if you oet putin continue, you're delisional.
I was shocked that Trump's first impeachment wasn't brought up when talking about Ukraine. Do people remember the first impeachment?
Yes, but Biden had almost no killer responses last night. Whenever he had the opportunity to raise something, he didn’t.
Please, don´t downvote me. I can't understand with Right wing is defending Ruzzia. (I'm right wing but don't vote to Trump). Here in Brazil, our Right politicians are closed with Trump and Ruzzia, they call Ukraine as "Europe degradation" and Ruzzia will make Europe great again (?) They can't see that Russia is trying to rebuild the SSSR? How can I be a right wing supporter if I'm supporting a country that wants to rebuild the most Socialist place on modern era?
Ignore socialism for a moment. That's a red herring. Look at how Russia is actually behaving: they are an authoritarian oligarchy, not socialist. They want more land and people to exploit for more money, and Putin specifically wants to relive the glory days of the USSR (remember he was a KGB officer then, and was happy under Soviet rule). The right wing throughout the world, at its extreme, wants the same, more authoritarianism, more rich benefactors to prop up their party, and to succeed at home they want to see their way of doing things work elsewhere, so they prop each other up. Any 'right wingers' propping up Russia and Trump are the same, they aren't the 'traditional' right wing, they are the authoritarians trying to take over, and in too many cases succeeding. They are using many tools to do so, including fear of socialism. How you vote, your political beliefs are up to you, but I strongly suggest you pay attention to who is supporting Trump and Russia, and work against those parties - even if it means voting more left than you want. Because if the authoritarians gain power and can hold it long enough, your vote will cease to have meaning.
Thank you!
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Hard to believe that these two are the best the voters are offered in such a great nation.