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Iraqis figured out how to surrender to drones in the '91 Gulf War - they came out in the open, looked right at the drone, put their hands up, and waved a white flag. Of course, you have to notice the drone before you can surrender to it, and that can be difficult.
Artillery? Even more difficult. Maybe there's a spotter you could surrender to?
True, but the main thing is to get out in the open with a white flag. Spotters or drones will see you. That's your only hope. And continue to move slowly out of the blast zone.
[That's actually why the Iraqis surrendered to the drones. The drones were spotting for the battleship USS Missouri's 16 inch guns.](https://www.military.com/history/why-50-year-old-battleships-were-critical-part-of-operation-desert-storm.html)
I don't know if aerial vehicles can accept surrenders, since they can't actually detain and eliminate the threat. Imagine if a drone let a combatant live and then that guy immediately kills UA forces?
I think Ukrainian artillery is pinpointed by an all from a spotter. Usually there’re drones overlooking the impact point. Like here for example the drone is looking at them, so I guess their surrender worked.
Hope the other side notices you’re surrendering and hope they accept it- usually by waving the biggest white flag you can find.
Aircraft and artillery might be distant but that also means they have a greater chance of being dispassionate due to the distance. Infantry who are up close and personal are often in a sort of combat tunnel vision, and it’s not uncommon for them not to notice an attempt to surrender (or for them to not trust the enemy’s surrender is genuine).
Traditionally the tankers would turn the barrel the opposite way from whatever direction it's advancing on, and tie a white flag to the barrel. That way the opposition knows you're not trying to kill them.
There was a retired german general on TV recently'ish saying an old tank is still better than no tank and with Western supplied anti-tank weapons cracking the modern ones just the same it matters even less.
Modern heads, compression ratio, turbo, and fuel injection would likely improve any old engine to near modern specs.
Very little has changed in the bottom end since the first engines.
Sure. Not every tank has to be barreling across the countryside dueling it out with other tanks. They can be used as static defenses in key areas. A cannon is a cannon.
The term 'Russian goodwill' to mean surrender previously captured land and run away needs to be a regular thing.
Suggest Urban Dictionary for a quick fix, and r/russiangoodwill (with a link from r/gestureofgoodwill) for news and memes about Russians running away.
Its deeply amusing to hear a country argue that their land warfare doctrine is "strictly defensive" for the entirety of the Cold War, when their tanks cannot reverse faster than a human can jog. If defense was your primary doctrine, your tanks would be designed to either reverse Hella fast, have armor on the rear so that they could turn around and rotate the turret over the rear while retreating, or both.
But no, their doctrine was clearly based on an assault on West Germany. You know whose tanks are remarkably fast in reverse? NATO tanks.
To be fair, the argument that Russia's doctrine was "strictly defensive" is backed up by the fact that the Russian army is unable to sustain logistics [more than 90 miles away](https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/feeding-the-bear-a-closer-look-at-russian-army-logistics/) from a wide gauge rail line. Unfortunately, Putin and the General Staff didn't get the memo.
Russia's logistics *for this war* were unable to sustain themselves away from a rail head. How much of that is due to the planning and execution of their takeover plan (wasn't planned as a full scale invasion). How much of it is intrinsic to the dilapidated state of their army. And how much of it is doctrine. I'd bet not much of the latter of the three.
Russia is also not the Soviet Union. Their tanks have been designed with appalling reverse speeds since the 50's at least. I'd go back further, but I only know that it's been a thing since at least the T-55. The Soviet Union certainly had logistical capability beyond their rail heads.
They wouldn't have [dedicated railway brigades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Railway_Troops) if logistics being tied to rail tracks wasn't an integral part of military doctrine. This is a pretty unique feature; I don't know of any other army that has this.
Of course it's a bug that their army has such difficulty operating away from railways *at all*, but that doesn't change that a setup so intrinsically linked to a "home advantage" seems more defensive in nature. An offensive army would feature a very different and most notably more extensive long-range logistical component.
Interesting WaPo article here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/30/russia-military-logistics-supply-chain/
At the end of the day, it seems Putin simply didn't use his forces the way they were intended. In addition to all the other problems (fortunately) plaguing the modern Russian military, like corruption, abuse and low morale.
It's also possible the Russians had other reasons to tie the army to railroads. Like cost benefit calculations to save money. Or deliberate neglect of road infrastructure to make remote regions dependent on the central government to keep the trains running. Or because it would be easier for NKVD/KGB/FSB detachments to block transportation lines if rogue army elements tried to stage a coup.
Either way, it's a very big sign that the Russian leadership don't know what they're doing if they're not planning around their weaknesses.
Russian leadership fucked itself.
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I *think* it goes back mainly to Russia just being really friggin' huge, and railway seemed like a nice invention to connect remote parts of the country. Keep in mind this goes all the way back to Imperial Russia, and to when trains were still relatively new -- so arguing with deliberate neglect (when the construction of these railway lines required major investments) or paranoia (when this was way before Soviet or modern Russian times) seems like a stretch.
Perhaps we could speculate that the Russian leadership made a "mistake" when they didn't update this doctrine even though they were planning to use their military much more offensively. But I think the more likely explanation is they didn't consider it necessary. As you suggested, an army more geared for foreign operations is much more expensive (see the US, and what bang they get for the amount of buck they spend), and the idea of Russia quite possibly still seeing its army as primarily a defense force isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with aggressive action against neighboring countries.
They did expect to take Kyiv on Day 1 with their failed airborne assault, after all. The grinder they got themselves stuck in is already their Plan C (with Plan B having been that huge armored column that ran out of fuel halfway).
(on a side note, the bot that replied to your post is hilarious :D)
Russian leadership fucked itself.
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Forgive my skepticism, but seeing how popular the turret tossing games have become, are there many tanks that are even repairable after they're done with them?
There's a good youtuber, Perun who answers this question. There is no other weapon of war capable of shrugging off small arms, while bringing a machine gun to handle infantry and cannon to handle vehicles into battle. They have weakness to heavy weapons, aircraft, and new anti tanks weapons, but if they were useless than Russia would be leaving them behind. Properly used, tanks are still devastating, which is why Ukraine is keen on getting some, right after the slightly higher priority of long range artillery.
Generally they have so little equipment and nowhere to go, they don't want to go back to the army, but they don't know where they are, so they're captured in less than a week.
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How are you suppose to show you want to surrender if you are being bombed by artillery or drones? I always wondered that.
Hands held way above your head, repeat a prayer, and stand there in your soiled pants until a nice Ukrainian soldier comes to get you.
Hands above head walk towards enemy with hands up the entire time.
Iraqis figured out how to surrender to drones in the '91 Gulf War - they came out in the open, looked right at the drone, put their hands up, and waved a white flag. Of course, you have to notice the drone before you can surrender to it, and that can be difficult. Artillery? Even more difficult. Maybe there's a spotter you could surrender to?
True, but the main thing is to get out in the open with a white flag. Spotters or drones will see you. That's your only hope. And continue to move slowly out of the blast zone.
white flag should be mandatory Russian equipment. maybe airdrop a couple hundred million white flags to help them poor dumb basterds
That's a damn good idea!
Ya like tie it around their arms or something for when they need it
Give them a map and a modern history book.
[That's actually why the Iraqis surrendered to the drones. The drones were spotting for the battleship USS Missouri's 16 inch guns.](https://www.military.com/history/why-50-year-old-battleships-were-critical-part-of-operation-desert-storm.html)
I don't know if aerial vehicles can accept surrenders, since they can't actually detain and eliminate the threat. Imagine if a drone let a combatant live and then that guy immediately kills UA forces?
I think Ukrainian artillery is pinpointed by an all from a spotter. Usually there’re drones overlooking the impact point. Like here for example the drone is looking at them, so I guess their surrender worked.
What drones actually?
Yea, and then came the '03 Apache pilots and said I blast you anyway.
I remember when 200 or so surrendered to an MRLS salvo.
Hope the other side notices you’re surrendering and hope they accept it- usually by waving the biggest white flag you can find. Aircraft and artillery might be distant but that also means they have a greater chance of being dispassionate due to the distance. Infantry who are up close and personal are often in a sort of combat tunnel vision, and it’s not uncommon for them not to notice an attempt to surrender (or for them to not trust the enemy’s surrender is genuine).
Run. And leave your weapons behind.
Turn your turret and have your weapon be behind you
Traditionally the tankers would turn the barrel the opposite way from whatever direction it's advancing on, and tie a white flag to the barrel. That way the opposition knows you're not trying to kill them.
They should try surrendering under their own drones ...... 
For drones it just depends if your opposite is a war criminal / sociopath or not. Arty, you're fucked.
You don't, you get shot. You cannot surrender to airplanes, helicopters, and drones. You can hardly surrender to armored vehicles.
If they could leave the country as a gesture of goodwill...
T 62M
Is it even worth reusing something so old?
There was a retired german general on TV recently'ish saying an old tank is still better than no tank and with Western supplied anti-tank weapons cracking the modern ones just the same it matters even less.
It plows the Ukrainian fields just as well.
Debatably. Fuel economy would suck
Modern heads, compression ratio, turbo, and fuel injection would likely improve any old engine to near modern specs. Very little has changed in the bottom end since the first engines.
What about the extra few thousands pounds of armor, barrel, and various other tank specific additions?
Dig them in as static defences, cannon is still a very useful tool.
Sure. Not every tank has to be barreling across the countryside dueling it out with other tanks. They can be used as static defenses in key areas. A cannon is a cannon.
These gesture of goodwill memes are cracking me up, good job UA.
It warms my heart to see Russia lose a tank.
You must be dangerously overheating then! Get an ice pack for your chest.
I have cold drinks available.
Now can someone tell me what fucking banger is playing?
u/auddbot
Ask "What song is this?" to summon auddbot 🙂
The term 'Russian goodwill' to mean surrender previously captured land and run away needs to be a regular thing. Suggest Urban Dictionary for a quick fix, and r/russiangoodwill (with a link from r/gestureofgoodwill) for news and memes about Russians running away.
Ah yes,the famous 3km/h reverse speed tanks
Its deeply amusing to hear a country argue that their land warfare doctrine is "strictly defensive" for the entirety of the Cold War, when their tanks cannot reverse faster than a human can jog. If defense was your primary doctrine, your tanks would be designed to either reverse Hella fast, have armor on the rear so that they could turn around and rotate the turret over the rear while retreating, or both. But no, their doctrine was clearly based on an assault on West Germany. You know whose tanks are remarkably fast in reverse? NATO tanks.
To be fair, the argument that Russia's doctrine was "strictly defensive" is backed up by the fact that the Russian army is unable to sustain logistics [more than 90 miles away](https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/feeding-the-bear-a-closer-look-at-russian-army-logistics/) from a wide gauge rail line. Unfortunately, Putin and the General Staff didn't get the memo.
I think that's more a bug than intentionally though out
Russia's logistics *for this war* were unable to sustain themselves away from a rail head. How much of that is due to the planning and execution of their takeover plan (wasn't planned as a full scale invasion). How much of it is intrinsic to the dilapidated state of their army. And how much of it is doctrine. I'd bet not much of the latter of the three. Russia is also not the Soviet Union. Their tanks have been designed with appalling reverse speeds since the 50's at least. I'd go back further, but I only know that it's been a thing since at least the T-55. The Soviet Union certainly had logistical capability beyond their rail heads.
They wouldn't have [dedicated railway brigades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Railway_Troops) if logistics being tied to rail tracks wasn't an integral part of military doctrine. This is a pretty unique feature; I don't know of any other army that has this. Of course it's a bug that their army has such difficulty operating away from railways *at all*, but that doesn't change that a setup so intrinsically linked to a "home advantage" seems more defensive in nature. An offensive army would feature a very different and most notably more extensive long-range logistical component. Interesting WaPo article here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/30/russia-military-logistics-supply-chain/ At the end of the day, it seems Putin simply didn't use his forces the way they were intended. In addition to all the other problems (fortunately) plaguing the modern Russian military, like corruption, abuse and low morale.
It's also possible the Russians had other reasons to tie the army to railroads. Like cost benefit calculations to save money. Or deliberate neglect of road infrastructure to make remote regions dependent on the central government to keep the trains running. Or because it would be easier for NKVD/KGB/FSB detachments to block transportation lines if rogue army elements tried to stage a coup. Either way, it's a very big sign that the Russian leadership don't know what they're doing if they're not planning around their weaknesses.
Russian leadership fucked itself. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I *think* it goes back mainly to Russia just being really friggin' huge, and railway seemed like a nice invention to connect remote parts of the country. Keep in mind this goes all the way back to Imperial Russia, and to when trains were still relatively new -- so arguing with deliberate neglect (when the construction of these railway lines required major investments) or paranoia (when this was way before Soviet or modern Russian times) seems like a stretch. Perhaps we could speculate that the Russian leadership made a "mistake" when they didn't update this doctrine even though they were planning to use their military much more offensively. But I think the more likely explanation is they didn't consider it necessary. As you suggested, an army more geared for foreign operations is much more expensive (see the US, and what bang they get for the amount of buck they spend), and the idea of Russia quite possibly still seeing its army as primarily a defense force isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with aggressive action against neighboring countries. They did expect to take Kyiv on Day 1 with their failed airborne assault, after all. The grinder they got themselves stuck in is already their Plan C (with Plan B having been that huge armored column that ran out of fuel halfway). (on a side note, the bot that replied to your post is hilarious :D)
Russian leadership fucked itself. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They are also tough nuts to crack frontally. Especially on the turret.
How fast your tank can go backwards is a strange thing to be proud of. I mean, you could just turn the tank around.
Reversing fast keeps the armor facing the enemy. That's just smart design.
Bro are you out of your mind? Fast reverse and heavier rear tank armor aren't part of a defensive doctrine.
Song???
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/vp2y4d/-/iej6ofq
Bummer they're letting it just endlessly reverse all over the crops.
Too bad they didn't stick around for the turret toss competition. It's my favorite.
Forgive my skepticism, but seeing how popular the turret tossing games have become, are there many tanks that are even repairable after they're done with them?
Turret tossing involves the ammunition exploding. If this doesn't happen the tank is very likely salvageable.
K I gotta ask. How useful is a captured tank really if it's already been knocked out? Isn't that just concrete proof that it's a creaking death trap?
If the squishy bits inside can run away from the tank then there's a good chance it's salvageable 👍
There's a good youtuber, Perun who answers this question. There is no other weapon of war capable of shrugging off small arms, while bringing a machine gun to handle infantry and cannon to handle vehicles into battle. They have weakness to heavy weapons, aircraft, and new anti tanks weapons, but if they were useless than Russia would be leaving them behind. Properly used, tanks are still devastating, which is why Ukraine is keen on getting some, right after the slightly higher priority of long range artillery.
They didn't want to stay for the Turret Tossing Event? What a shame.
It's a losing game ¯_(ツ)_/¯
They just abandoned the tank, what are you taking about?
It's about snake island, which Russia gave up as "a sign of good will". They actually got shelled until they left, like this tank crew.
This particular tank though is supposedly a T62 60 year old hunk of junk, I wouldn’t want to repurpose it lol
Ghost riding the whip UA edition.
Be like theses guys
Great job! The Ukrainian Army needs more of those goodwill-inducing weapons. Keep them burning until they stop coming!
I'm glad for them.
Lol this is amazing! Great snake island reference 😂
Live RuZZkies are better than dead ones, at least they can be traded for Ukrainian heroes. Also saves on body bags.
If they're traded can't they be put back into the combat
Ah how kind of them to show such goodwill.
Generally they have so little equipment and nowhere to go, they don't want to go back to the army, but they don't know where they are, so they're captured in less than a week.
Ahh yes, the generous russian goodwill gestures
It being a T62, they should have ran before getting in