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It is truly embarrassing from Ireland how unwilling they are to contribute to European defence. Especially when the claims of neutrality fall a bit flat as they ask other European nations to patrol for Russian subs... It's not neutrality if you're picking a side guys.
Not entirely sure how they manage to get away with being so cheap and calling it the moral high ground, would be nice if they got called out for it a bit more often.
Makes me laugh when they call it the celtic tiger like it is something amazing. Lowering taxes so corps don't pay their way is a race to the bottom for all of us in the end.
Ireland had a budget surplus of 8 billion euros last fiscal year, the equivalent of 3% of its economy, so it could spend 2% of its budget on defense and it literally not effect spending elsewhere
As someone from Northern Ireland who is pretty open on the constitutional question, Ireland would have to get serious about defense before I could vote for a united Ireland
What would 3% of Ireland's budget get them though? I genuinely never realized how small it all is, half the population of Greater London across the entire island.
3% of Ireland’s budget is €2.5bn Euros.
For $120 million per year you could maintain 12 F-35s or 2 Type-45 destroyers.
Granted they would need to buy them and have the infrastructure to use them.
> but realistically there is no chance we would allow a foreign power to attack Ireland.
Can't think of any realistic scenarios, but the UK would be beyond idiotic to allow an enemy nation (in a hypothetical war) to invade and control Ireland. Allowing them to amass forces just over the Irish sea would be game over for the UK.
That's the problem though right? Just buying the 12 jets would take up a pretty huge chunk of their annual budget wouldn't it?
To be clear not trying to make a point, was genuinely curious so thanks for providing the info!
The thing is that'd do...
It wouldn't be a problem for Britain, France & Norway searching for this sub if Ireland contribute a decent share in their own way. If they had a decent fleet of f35s or a couple of Destroyers then it wouldn't be a problem for the rest of NATO to help them out in ways they are not capabale.
Historically, it may have made sense when there was a gentleman's agreement between London and Dublin not to do anything that would trigger escalation in Northern Ireland.
And a military build-up in the south would have been seen as hugely inflammatory in the 20th century.
That's not the case any more, and I think Dublin is starting to realise the current situation is unsustainable.
i don't consider all Irish people cunts either...i think nuance of the word cunt doesn't translate so well on here..
But Ireland are definitely freeloading cunts when it come their "neutrality "
I mean the worst part for me is the republic pretending their refusal to accept any responsibility for their own defence is borne out of some enlightened noble belief in pacifism or neutrality. At the very least they should just be honest and admit they wont spend the money because their geographic position means they dont have to.
Lost a lot of respect for Ireland.
Howl and yell about the UK being horrible for wanting to deport refuges that are escaping through France.
But as soon as the UK says oh you can have them. Kicks off that it's not fair that the refuges shouldn't be allowed to pass through countries. Unsure if they even re-named them as just migrants.
I think its because Irish people in general dont appreciate the sheer fortune of their geographic position and how much theyre shielded from having to make tough decisions regarding immigration and military investment , which is because theyre on the periphery of europe not because of how innately noble the country is. I mean im Irish (well Northern Irish) and ive become pretty sick of how self righteous and arrogant the republic is. That and the fact so many of the pro russian voices in europe are from Ireland, like those disgusting freaks Mick wallace and clare daly has made me feel rather ashamed in the last two years.
"We're a catastrophic liability of we fall so please daddy save us"
Meanwhile some of the first UK deaths of ww2 where from irish terrorist bombs supporting the nazis
>Meanwhile some of the first UK deaths of ww2 where from irish terrorist bombs supporting the nazis
What's the point of this statement, other then to stoke hatred towards the Irish?
80,000 Irish *volunteered* for British Forces during WW2. Over 200,000 enlisted during WW1. A handful of wayward Nazi sympathisers don't negate that. Just like King Edward's Nazi sympathising doesn't represent the rest of Britain.
You mean 42,000 republic irish, dont try to include the northern on your tally.
And they where all declared deserters untill 2012
Ww1 was over a century ago
>And they where all declared deserters untill 2012
No they weren't, you keep repeating this. The 6% of them that joined after deserting the Irish Defence Force were.
Do you hold Britain to the same standard over what it did to those that fought Franco?
2.5% of the population of Ireland joined the British army during ww2. While 7.5% of the population of England served in the army. 8% of the population of Ireland temporarily moved to England to support its economy while it was at war.
>Meanwhile some of the first UK deaths of ww2 where from irish terrorist bombs supporting the nazis
It's a little disingenuous of you to say that without saying/admitting that there were quite a few, not entirely mysterious, reasons why those attacks took place.
Also, framing it as 'in support' of the Nazis is slippery as fuck too.
Because the IRA thought the nazis would grant them northern ireland if they supported a german invasion of Ireland from which to launch an invasion of the uk, however the nazies actualy thought them a complete liability so merely used them as terrorists?
Iceland is actually part of nato tho
Also Iceland has a population of less than 400,000
Ireland has a population of 5+ million
Ireland needs to do more rather than relying on a country most of its population despises
As an Irish person, most of our population certainly does not despise Britain. There's a small vocal minority that can't let history be history but the vast majority of Irish people beat absolutely no ill will whatsoever. Quite the opposite. Irish people support English football teams, listen to English pop music, watch British TV and most have relatives and friends living in the UK. The Queen was greeted by cheering crowds when she visited Ireland 10 years ago. There's no love lost for the Tories, and we probably end up supporting whoever is playing England in the Six Nations (which is probably the same for Scotland and Wales, to be fair), but for most Irish people that's about the worst of it. I agree that Ireland should shoulder its fair share on defense and not rely so much on the UK.
The only people that despise the UK are some of the redditors on r/ireland lol.
I’ll say that the Irish (well, not Dublin lol, more like Galway to Cork) were very friendly. Got free parking tickets (where people had time left) every day for a week in different places!
Trouble is angsty teenagers grow up, having been fed a diet of non-stop vitriol and spurious opinions masquerading as facts and so the divisive tribalism continues ad nauseum.
> The only people that despise the UK are some of the redditors on r/ireland lol.
To be fair on the subs man, look at some of the comments in this sub even on this thread and other subs like r/ukpolitics. Comments that fucking despise the Irish. LEts not even consider r/badunitedkingdom...
To be fair - aside from the last year on this sub - most people posting appeared to hate the UK….
Eta that last subreddit says specially slagging off the UK is the point of the sun so I guess I don’t need to spend any more than the 10 seconds I spent in it!
As someone with Irish family who has spent a lot of time there throughout my life, the Irish only really talk about their dislike of Britain when the UK acts in a way that total ignores or disregards the history of the UK's role in Ireland, or when people are totally ignorant of it.
This pops up frequently when you have a right-wing government that does right-wing shit, and when you have a population that is basically ignorant to what its empire was historically involved in. The UK had what could be fairly described as an insurgent civil war, and a huge chunk of the population has barely any idea about The Troubles in specific detail. Even people who were living contemporary to it were are often shockingly lacking in knowledge.
With Brexit there have been a lot more moments and narratives that basically come across as the UK wanting to dictate policy for Ireland, which has made responses from Irish politicians become something that Brits are seeing in the news. And these can often look incredibly angry at the UK and pulling up history, but when, for example, a British politician makes any comments about food imports into Ireland the politicians are going to first be angry, and secondly ask the UK to not invoke the narratives that lead to the Great Hunger. But a lot of Brits just get the message that Ireland is stuck in the past and hates Britain.
If only this were true; I've experienced *so* much more racism from the Irish because I'm English than I ever expected. Even from people that considered me a friend. It's stupidly casual and we're just meant to take it.
Try to tell people it's history and you're not interested in being insulted over it and you're branded a loyalist and supporter of war criminals, reminded that it's still in living memory for majority of the population, not some ancient history, and accused of downplaying it or being willfully ignorant.
On multiple occasions, and this is from lads under 25, I've had conversations that basically started with the Irish person asking me if I knew I was a bastard because I'm English and what the English did to Ireland...It's so fuckin' tiresome.
>As an Irish person, most of our population certainly does not despise Britain
I think it's just the usual chronically online people (and some of the older generations I guess.) You hear similar shit from Welsh and Scots people online, but I've always had wonderful interactions irl with everyone from these Isles.
Never felt unwelcome in small villages in the Scottish Highlands, or North Wales, places where you would imagine anti-English sentiment is highest. Sadly never been to Ireland/NI, would love to tho, and every person I've met over from there has been great.
Iceland at least has the excuse that there's only 344,000 of them. If they recruited even 1% to their military. They'd still have a military that was too small to do anything and they're not de facto stealing from all of their allies by having off shore taxation rates. So that Amazon, Google etc. pay virtually no corporation tax in the UK because it all goes through Ireland instead. Even EuroStat has started to exclude Irish financial figures from European statistics. As the Irish GNP is largely based on things like how many smartphones Samsung manages to sell around the world. When the phones never even enter into Ireland. With the Irish figures being so extreme and variable that it can make the difference between the Eurozone being in recession or seeing slight growth.
They've been talking for several years about upgrading their defences but so far it's just been talk and proposed plans. With only a miniscule increase in defence expenditure since the full invasion of Ukraine. HMS Belfast from WW2 could take out their entire navy and Spitfires could take out all of their air force. Their entire defence budget wouldn't buy one capable anti-submarine warfare plane or a modern frigate. With about 25% of their €1 billion budget being spent on pensions. They only spend 0.21% of GDP on defence, against the NATO standard of 2%.
>With only a miniscule increase in defence expenditure since the full invasion of Ukraine.
>They only spend 0.21% of GDP on defence, against the NATO standard of 2%.
According to Wikipedia, Irish defence budget was 0.21% of gdp in 2019, having consistently fallen from just under 1% in '99 and reaching the dizzying high of 0.23% of gdp in 2022.
Just wanted to add some figures to show how seriously Ireland takes its defence.
Yes, the republic is nauseating in how shamelessly they freeload off of the rest of the rest of europe for protection whilst self-righteously acting like theyre more noble and enlightened than the rest of the west for not investing in any real defence capabilities, not even after the last 2 years (which they can only afford to do due to the luck of their geographic position.) Is there any other countries in a similar position? Canada and New Zealand, maybe?
As someone from the ROI, I agree with everything you've said. Our neutrality is a paper shield and the weak link in European defence. Can't see it changing though.
>Especially when the claims of neutrality fall a bit flat as they ask other European nations to patrol for Russian subs...
Neutral doesn't just mean anyone can piss about in their territorial waters.
No. But if you're asking one side to defend your waters and airspace against the other.... whose side are you on?
You know there's literally an agreement that Irish airpsace falls under the British sphere of protection? Yep, totally neutral.
This is one of the reasons why I don't get why so many people often fawn after Ireland as like an enlighten version of the British.
They're entire economy is propped up by basically undercutting the rest of the world in Corporation Tax and the Double Irish tax loop swizz and then do fuck all for defence of the continent.
It's also annoying that the irish government expect the British navy and airforce to do the heavy lifting with the defence when the Irish government is slagging the brits off to the irish population...
So let’s say hypothetically Finland are neutral (not sure if they are or not) - should they help the Russians looking for a British sub off Finland and if they don’t help do so be called non-neutral?
Finland is a member of NATO.
Yes, if the hypothetical situation was flipped over to Finland and they: routinely sided with Russia diplomatically, had an agreement for Russian planes to patrol their skies, were subject to NATO incursions to which they responded by asking for Russian assistance etc etc, they could not reasonably be called a neutral country. We would all more than happily call them a Russian puppet at that point.
>But at least Switzerland could defend their air space
Provided it's [during regular business hours](https://aviationhumor.net/the-swiss-air-force-armed-and-dangerous-but-only-in-office-hours/) and not during the air force pilots' designated lunch break.
If you read the article the french and Italians had to intercept it for the Swiss.
If your military has less working hour flexibility than even the French and Italians then you have a serious problem...
Switzerland has compulsory military service, and ongoing enlistment in the reserves until you're 42. The entire country is a fortress, riddled with hidden defensive systems. They only removed the explosives from under their strategic bridges a couple of years ago, and every building has bunkers for every citizen. There is a huge difference between Switzerland's neutrality and Ireland's.
The Swiss are arms dealers, whereas Ireland are not. They profit from their weapons ending up in conflict theatres while being neutral, that is way more immoral
I think their point still stands. They are behind NATO lines regardless of being members or not.
.I.e. a ground invasion (like Ukraine) is impossible.
Ukraine aren't NATO members, but they ARE the front line.
>“Ireland simply [does not have the capacity](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/only-russian-good-will-can-keep-irish-no-fly-zone-intact-0cg6jq23d) to deal with threats like this but we need to educate the public to allow us to enter into bespoke arrangements with countries that can,” said Declan Power, the security analyst. “We need to move forward, not have an argument about joining Nato, but setting up bespoke arrangements. We need to explain this all to the public.
Ireland has the same population size as Finland and Norway. So its ok for them to call the Norwegians to fly over a very expensive piece of maritime surveillance kit when they have an actual physical border with Russia and then go back to having a defence force that is only slightly better armed than the boy scouts?
They also heavily rely on the RAF for watching Russian aircraft near their airspace while the aforementioned other small countries fly F-35 and all the expense that entails.
Couple of squadrons of Gripen and about 5 P3s would not break the bank and cover most of their air needs. They would not have to bone up to Red Flag level or be expected to pull serious duty internationally just lend some weight to those who are sort of now defending their air and sea space for free.
I mean, I get why the UK is doing this sort of thing. I'm not a huge fan, but I get it, since we share a land border. If Ireland got flattened by some kind of hostile power it would be an excellent staging post to invade the UK. France I guess I can see as well, being both EU member states and all.
I am mystified as to why Norway wouldn't tell Ireland to go and piss off.
Because norway knows it will depend on the UK and needs to protect us as we protect them too.
Meanwhile europe knoes from WW2 ireland will be "neutral" while launching terror bombings against the uk in the hopes the enemy grants them northern Ireland
>Meanwhile europe knoes from WW2 ireland will be "neutral" while launching terror bombings against the uk in the hopes the enemy grants them northern Ireland
What utter hateful shite that intentionally disregards the tens of thousands of Irish people that joined the British army not long after independence to fight fascism, with thousands giving their lives for it. Way to spit on the memory of WW2 soldiers that you couldn't hold a candle to.
You mean the people decalred traitors and deserters?
Only to be reversed in 2012?
When nearly every single one of them was dead the Irish government didnt have to answer awkward questions about them?
You're referring to what happened to those that deserted the Irish defence forces to sign up - around 6% of Irish volunteers in the British Army in WW2; while tarnishing all of them. You still don't seem to realise how you compare to these people.
Meanwhile, Ireland granted Britain naval bases and returned downed pilots. 8% of Irelands population moved to England to work in factories and support its economy during the war. 2.5% of the population of Ireland joined the British Army which is 1/3 of the proportion of English that did. To give you some cultural context of the time: this all occurred less than 20 years after Irish independence through civil war in which British forces were slaughtering civilians in the street.
Weird that I'm getting downvotted for sharing facts about Ireland in WW2 instead of just letting this guy spout his nationalistic bullshit.
> Meanwhile europe knoes from WW2 ireland will be "neutral" while launching terror bombings against the uk in the hopes the enemy grants them northern Ireland
What's your source for the Irish Government bombing Northern Ireland during WWII?
Ah no it was irish citizenery under IRA that bombed the uk, not NI the UK, london etc
The irish government simply contented itself declaring any soldier that fought the nazis a traitor.
If Northern Ireland didn't exist, they very well may have.
Norway and Britain have been very close allies since WW2, especially military wise. After brexit, they even offered us continued freedom of movement, but the Tories didn't want to reciprocate.
>After brexit, they even offered us continued freedom of movement, but the Tories didn't want to reciprocate.
I did not know this.... Just when you think you couldn't hate the Tories more...
We should just publically announce NATO defense policy in the event of war with a near-peer adversary: for the UK to immediately occupy the republic as it clearly can't defend itself, and its fall would imperil NATO (in all likelihood, that's quite possibly what it already is) and see how quickly their defense funding changes.
To be fair, you call any of these three countries and tell them you offer them a free exercise to find a russian sub, their only answer will be "yes please". That's what these guys would do anyway, but now they don't have to take time making a simulation.
Irish man here i remember reading that we barely even had the correct radar for defense. They'll spend millions of euro on consultants to tell them the water pipes are shite and more millions putting meters on peoples water or 10s of millions on electronic voting boothes that never get used. Or buying themselves a fleet of brand new audis with eu money right after the financial collapse.
But they wouldnt bother with anything even remotely useful. Refuse to tax corporations even after the EU told them they had to.
Shambolic arseholes the lot of them. More concerned now about a conflict that doesnt conern us rather than one that definitely does.
Another Irishman here.
This is just embarrassing on our part.
We sit and bemoan about the big bad Brits, day in and day out. However when it comes to them protecting/monitoring our skies and seas, we take no issue cause it saves us a few quid.
How in the name of fuck can we call ourselves independent people if we can’t even be bothered to create the means of protecting our own sovereignty and people, but instead rely on the same people we forever vilify.
We’ve some brass neck.
It's not even being able to defend your own country, it's the fact Ireland enjoys the safety of a Western nation but not willing to support the defence of western freedom, someone else will do it.
All the time throwing snide jibes at "the Brits" from the sidelines with an air of superiority. I would be embarrassed too.
And what use is it? The only Air Defence they currently have is 6 RBS-70 a MAN-PAD's which wouldn't be effective against a russian incursion. Likely Russia would be able to fire stand off missiles and leave before entering range that's if they even have those MAN-PAD's deployed.
All they would use the Radar for is call the RAF to come and help.
Why does Europe bend over for Ireland?
Tax haven for corps so steal all the high paying jobs and deny tax for other countries.
Expect other countries to pay their military equipment.
Honestly, not having the capabilities to protect ourselves makes me feel like our independence is half arsed.
Protecting the people of a nation should be the bare necessity of any nation, regardless if it’s one that has always been historically neutral.
Instead, we are more than too happy to rely on the same people we say our occupying our country or oppressed us for centuries. It makes zero sense and it is utterly brazen and embarrassing, but clearly not embarrassing enough to promote any meaningful change.
I'd like to be worried but given the historical performance of Russian subs and the level of equipment they are deploying in Ukraine I just wonder if the search will actually turn into Search and rescue.
Subs are the one thing Russia does well. Underwater things are their main specialty, which is why they were able to blow up the pipelines to Europe so easily.
..well subs, disinformation and subverting democracies of other nations with their own disinformation backed candidates.
Ireland has moved away from its performative position on illegal migration now it has to deal with it first hand.
It’s time to also now move on from ‘neutrality’, it has a capable enemy that’s interested in exploiting it, whether it likes it or not.
Ireland needs to contribute and pay its fair share. Enough of the freeloading. Being a small country isn’t an excuse. The Baltic States, Norway and Finland also have populations of 5 million or less, just like Ireland, but clearly they take defence much more seriously.
“We don’t have any enemies because everyone loves us” isn’t a valid defence strategy anymore.
Remember Ireland, Spain and the Swiss didn't participate in WW2. Spain had finished a civil war, Switzerland was a good haven. Both of these are effectively pro Nazi. Ireland was taking the moral high ground, by not fighting Nazis and Fascists. Ireland is now taking the moral high ground by not helping Ukraine against Russia. Their people are taking the high ground by backing Hamas. Their country took the high ground by becoming a tax haven despite whining how left wing they are. They're government has 180 degree turned from let refugees in to send them back to the UK just as soon as they had some themselves. They are a joke of a nation, whose own people sold the food during the famine but they take no flak, no responsibility, and side with the wrong side persistently. Grow up, its only because you'd be a European Cuba that Britain and Europe protect you.
Why would you judge a nation by what was going on there 4 generations ago in WW2. It's ridiculous like Irish people judging present day Brits based on the potato famine or Indians judging us on the Bengal famine. And you can't just compare the Ukraine/Russia situation to WW2 either. Most countries in the world aren't helping Ukraine that doesn't make them Nazis lmao. They just don't have a military. Pipe down.
In 1939 Ireland had existed as an independent country for less then two decades, during which time they had a civil war. The country was in the process of recovering from centuries of foreign occupation.
The Irish government also allowed allied aircraft to use Irish airspace unchallenged, and provided the weather reports used to plan the Normandy Landings.
While I agree that Ireland needs to pay it's fair share, you frothing at the mouth over WW2 is pretty fucking strange.
You seriously can't comprehend why Ireland didn't side with Britain during WW2? Why a country might have an issue with the neighbouring colonial power that oppressed them for centuries, stole their land, genocided them and with whom they fought a war just 20 years before WW2? If you use your brain for 5 seconds, I'm sure you can figure it out.
Most people at that time in Ireland had friends and family killed by the British, their homes and towns burned by the British (check out the black and tans, the burning of Cork in 1920, or the burning of Balbriggan in 1920, or 100 other examples). Allying with the UK would have dragged Ireland back into a civil war.
And despite their history and how hated Britain was, Ireland coordinated with the US on the D-Day landings to give them crucial weather information, released all allied forces but captured all axis troops, and 1 in 15 Irishmen died fighting the Nazis (for comparison's sake it was 1 in 30 British men). But because our Taoiseach (PM) stupidly offered condolences on Hitler's death, we all get labelled Nazi sympathisers for the next 80 years. We actually get more criticism about WW2 than countries like Slovakia, Croatia or others who were literally Nazi allies.
Can you imagine telling the Ukraninans in 20 years that they have to help and ally with Russia? And if they didn't want to do it, they were basically nazis?
Also, for the record, Ireland is constantly sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine, and our military is helping train Ukranian soldiers.
I got a 14 day ban over in /r/Ireland for asking why they keep deleting threads about this. Pathetic. My Mrs is Irish and I spend a lot of time there and am moving there shortly so not going over there to troll I’m on that sub a fair amount.
So can someone explain to me why this is an issue? So what if there is a Russian sub off Ireland, not like they are going to do anything, so what's the big issue? honest question
Their are a number of critical infrastructure under the sea of the cost of Ireland, for example, undersea cables, which are critical infrastructure for Western countries including Ireland.
Having Russia poking about that area is a huge risk, as they are likely mapping it out or tracking western military vessels, there is also the risk of Russia entering Irelands territory, which again is a huge risk for Western countries especially the UK.
Ireland maintains 'neutrality' and has zero capabilities to do anything about Russia "man handling" them if Russia choose to do so, so they rely on the Western countries to do something as it is also a risk to them, hence why all the comments of "freeloading" in this post.
"So what if Russia is gathering forces on the Ukrainian border, not like they are going to do anything, so what's the big issue?"
Literally think for 2 seconds before commenting please for the love of God.
Could simply be a case of Russia seeing how Ireland/Britain react and how quickly. You see it quite often with Russian planes entering UK/Irish airspace. They are not neccesairly planning to do anything but rather are testing to see how quickly the RAF can dispatch and tell them to leave. There will be a folder on someone's desk in Moscow that may be used as input for a decision if Russia wants to try something more daring.
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It is truly embarrassing from Ireland how unwilling they are to contribute to European defence. Especially when the claims of neutrality fall a bit flat as they ask other European nations to patrol for Russian subs... It's not neutrality if you're picking a side guys. Not entirely sure how they manage to get away with being so cheap and calling it the moral high ground, would be nice if they got called out for it a bit more often.
free loading cunts just say it as it is
Don't forget to mention their tax haven status too
Yup it's like anyone's too scared to say it as it is..they can do nuthin wrong. Total bollocks i see plenty wrong both past and present
Mate who is too scared to say Ireland is a tax haven?
Makes me laugh when they call it the celtic tiger like it is something amazing. Lowering taxes so corps don't pay their way is a race to the bottom for all of us in the end.
That term hasn't been used since the 2008 crash...
Ireland had a budget surplus of 8 billion euros last fiscal year, the equivalent of 3% of its economy, so it could spend 2% of its budget on defense and it literally not effect spending elsewhere As someone from Northern Ireland who is pretty open on the constitutional question, Ireland would have to get serious about defense before I could vote for a united Ireland
Good point well made.
Jimbo
What would 3% of Ireland's budget get them though? I genuinely never realized how small it all is, half the population of Greater London across the entire island.
3% of Ireland’s budget is €2.5bn Euros. For $120 million per year you could maintain 12 F-35s or 2 Type-45 destroyers. Granted they would need to buy them and have the infrastructure to use them.
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> but realistically there is no chance we would allow a foreign power to attack Ireland. Can't think of any realistic scenarios, but the UK would be beyond idiotic to allow an enemy nation (in a hypothetical war) to invade and control Ireland. Allowing them to amass forces just over the Irish sea would be game over for the UK.
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The Irish gov during ww2 had plans to work with the UK in the event of a German attack.
That's the problem though right? Just buying the 12 jets would take up a pretty huge chunk of their annual budget wouldn't it? To be clear not trying to make a point, was genuinely curious so thanks for providing the info!
Yes, it would. Every other country has to spend that in order not to get invaded, Ireland just gets that for free, from mainly UK taxpayers.
They could buy Gripens as a cheaper to run alternative and have more of them.
The thing is that'd do... It wouldn't be a problem for Britain, France & Norway searching for this sub if Ireland contribute a decent share in their own way. If they had a decent fleet of f35s or a couple of Destroyers then it wouldn't be a problem for the rest of NATO to help them out in ways they are not capabale.
why spend money when others are willing to do it for you for their own strategic goals?
Should we all be free loading cunts now, Father?
that would be a ecumenical matter
Ah, go on
to be sure
I blame the Greeks
Historically, it may have made sense when there was a gentleman's agreement between London and Dublin not to do anything that would trigger escalation in Northern Ireland. And a military build-up in the south would have been seen as hugely inflammatory in the 20th century. That's not the case any more, and I think Dublin is starting to realise the current situation is unsustainable.
Well I wouldn't say Irish people are all cunts
i don't consider all Irish people cunts either...i think nuance of the word cunt doesn't translate so well on here.. But Ireland are definitely freeloading cunts when it come their "neutrality "
I mean the worst part for me is the republic pretending their refusal to accept any responsibility for their own defence is borne out of some enlightened noble belief in pacifism or neutrality. At the very least they should just be honest and admit they wont spend the money because their geographic position means they dont have to.
The people of Ireland and the Irish government are two separate things. Same as here.
Lost a lot of respect for Ireland. Howl and yell about the UK being horrible for wanting to deport refuges that are escaping through France. But as soon as the UK says oh you can have them. Kicks off that it's not fair that the refuges shouldn't be allowed to pass through countries. Unsure if they even re-named them as just migrants.
I think its because Irish people in general dont appreciate the sheer fortune of their geographic position and how much theyre shielded from having to make tough decisions regarding immigration and military investment , which is because theyre on the periphery of europe not because of how innately noble the country is. I mean im Irish (well Northern Irish) and ive become pretty sick of how self righteous and arrogant the republic is. That and the fact so many of the pro russian voices in europe are from Ireland, like those disgusting freaks Mick wallace and clare daly has made me feel rather ashamed in the last two years.
Yet again wanting their cake and to eat it too. They are making themselves out to be fools when it comes to this and immigration recently.
They have defence cooperations with the Brits and the Americans, similar to Iceland.
"Defence co-operations" = "please come and defend us, we can't be bothered to do it ourselves". \*pats self on back for being wonderfully \*neutral\*
"We're a catastrophic liability of we fall so please daddy save us" Meanwhile some of the first UK deaths of ww2 where from irish terrorist bombs supporting the nazis
Worth mentioning that a lot of Irish volunteered for the British armed forces during the war too.
And were treated terribly after the war by their countrymen
Who were only pardoned in 2013 for doing so.
>Meanwhile some of the first UK deaths of ww2 where from irish terrorist bombs supporting the nazis What's the point of this statement, other then to stoke hatred towards the Irish? 80,000 Irish *volunteered* for British Forces during WW2. Over 200,000 enlisted during WW1. A handful of wayward Nazi sympathisers don't negate that. Just like King Edward's Nazi sympathising doesn't represent the rest of Britain.
You mean 42,000 republic irish, dont try to include the northern on your tally. And they where all declared deserters untill 2012 Ww1 was over a century ago
>And they where all declared deserters untill 2012 No they weren't, you keep repeating this. The 6% of them that joined after deserting the Irish Defence Force were. Do you hold Britain to the same standard over what it did to those that fought Franco? 2.5% of the population of Ireland joined the British army during ww2. While 7.5% of the population of England served in the army. 8% of the population of Ireland temporarily moved to England to support its economy while it was at war.
>Meanwhile some of the first UK deaths of ww2 where from irish terrorist bombs supporting the nazis It's a little disingenuous of you to say that without saying/admitting that there were quite a few, not entirely mysterious, reasons why those attacks took place. Also, framing it as 'in support' of the Nazis is slippery as fuck too.
Because the IRA thought the nazis would grant them northern ireland if they supported a german invasion of Ireland from which to launch an invasion of the uk, however the nazies actualy thought them a complete liability so merely used them as terrorists?
Neutral lol had no problem establishing their neutrality by keeping their lights on back in WW2 leading the Luftwaffe straight to Belfast
Iceland is actually part of nato tho Also Iceland has a population of less than 400,000 Ireland has a population of 5+ million Ireland needs to do more rather than relying on a country most of its population despises
As an Irish person, most of our population certainly does not despise Britain. There's a small vocal minority that can't let history be history but the vast majority of Irish people beat absolutely no ill will whatsoever. Quite the opposite. Irish people support English football teams, listen to English pop music, watch British TV and most have relatives and friends living in the UK. The Queen was greeted by cheering crowds when she visited Ireland 10 years ago. There's no love lost for the Tories, and we probably end up supporting whoever is playing England in the Six Nations (which is probably the same for Scotland and Wales, to be fair), but for most Irish people that's about the worst of it. I agree that Ireland should shoulder its fair share on defense and not rely so much on the UK.
The only people that despise the UK are some of the redditors on r/ireland lol. I’ll say that the Irish (well, not Dublin lol, more like Galway to Cork) were very friendly. Got free parking tickets (where people had time left) every day for a week in different places!
Yeah, lol.. that sub is full of angsty teenagers. I don't think it's any different to r/Scotland or whatever.
Trouble is angsty teenagers grow up, having been fed a diet of non-stop vitriol and spurious opinions masquerading as facts and so the divisive tribalism continues ad nauseum.
> The only people that despise the UK are some of the redditors on r/ireland lol. To be fair on the subs man, look at some of the comments in this sub even on this thread and other subs like r/ukpolitics. Comments that fucking despise the Irish. LEts not even consider r/badunitedkingdom...
To be fair - aside from the last year on this sub - most people posting appeared to hate the UK…. Eta that last subreddit says specially slagging off the UK is the point of the sun so I guess I don’t need to spend any more than the 10 seconds I spent in it!
As someone with Irish family who has spent a lot of time there throughout my life, the Irish only really talk about their dislike of Britain when the UK acts in a way that total ignores or disregards the history of the UK's role in Ireland, or when people are totally ignorant of it. This pops up frequently when you have a right-wing government that does right-wing shit, and when you have a population that is basically ignorant to what its empire was historically involved in. The UK had what could be fairly described as an insurgent civil war, and a huge chunk of the population has barely any idea about The Troubles in specific detail. Even people who were living contemporary to it were are often shockingly lacking in knowledge. With Brexit there have been a lot more moments and narratives that basically come across as the UK wanting to dictate policy for Ireland, which has made responses from Irish politicians become something that Brits are seeing in the news. And these can often look incredibly angry at the UK and pulling up history, but when, for example, a British politician makes any comments about food imports into Ireland the politicians are going to first be angry, and secondly ask the UK to not invoke the narratives that lead to the Great Hunger. But a lot of Brits just get the message that Ireland is stuck in the past and hates Britain.
If only this were true; I've experienced *so* much more racism from the Irish because I'm English than I ever expected. Even from people that considered me a friend. It's stupidly casual and we're just meant to take it. Try to tell people it's history and you're not interested in being insulted over it and you're branded a loyalist and supporter of war criminals, reminded that it's still in living memory for majority of the population, not some ancient history, and accused of downplaying it or being willfully ignorant. On multiple occasions, and this is from lads under 25, I've had conversations that basically started with the Irish person asking me if I knew I was a bastard because I'm English and what the English did to Ireland...It's so fuckin' tiresome.
Cant let history be while simultaniously being ignorant or selective of history.
>As an Irish person, most of our population certainly does not despise Britain I think it's just the usual chronically online people (and some of the older generations I guess.) You hear similar shit from Welsh and Scots people online, but I've always had wonderful interactions irl with everyone from these Isles. Never felt unwelcome in small villages in the Scottish Highlands, or North Wales, places where you would imagine anti-English sentiment is highest. Sadly never been to Ireland/NI, would love to tho, and every person I've met over from there has been great.
You just outed how little you know about the Irish people. Ouch.
britain has a defence co-operation agreement with iceland but Tesco and Sainsburys can go fuck themselves when the russians invade!
You have to protect Iceland as it's the only one with Greggs branded pasties
Iceland at least has the excuse that there's only 344,000 of them. If they recruited even 1% to their military. They'd still have a military that was too small to do anything and they're not de facto stealing from all of their allies by having off shore taxation rates. So that Amazon, Google etc. pay virtually no corporation tax in the UK because it all goes through Ireland instead. Even EuroStat has started to exclude Irish financial figures from European statistics. As the Irish GNP is largely based on things like how many smartphones Samsung manages to sell around the world. When the phones never even enter into Ireland. With the Irish figures being so extreme and variable that it can make the difference between the Eurozone being in recession or seeing slight growth. They've been talking for several years about upgrading their defences but so far it's just been talk and proposed plans. With only a miniscule increase in defence expenditure since the full invasion of Ukraine. HMS Belfast from WW2 could take out their entire navy and Spitfires could take out all of their air force. Their entire defence budget wouldn't buy one capable anti-submarine warfare plane or a modern frigate. With about 25% of their €1 billion budget being spent on pensions. They only spend 0.21% of GDP on defence, against the NATO standard of 2%.
>With only a miniscule increase in defence expenditure since the full invasion of Ukraine. >They only spend 0.21% of GDP on defence, against the NATO standard of 2%. According to Wikipedia, Irish defence budget was 0.21% of gdp in 2019, having consistently fallen from just under 1% in '99 and reaching the dizzying high of 0.23% of gdp in 2022. Just wanted to add some figures to show how seriously Ireland takes its defence.
And what's their contribution? At least Iceland is strategically Important lol
It's not always neutrality if you don't pick a side either. Belgium was neutral and Belgium found that forced upon them anyway.
Yes, the republic is nauseating in how shamelessly they freeload off of the rest of the rest of europe for protection whilst self-righteously acting like theyre more noble and enlightened than the rest of the west for not investing in any real defence capabilities, not even after the last 2 years (which they can only afford to do due to the luck of their geographic position.) Is there any other countries in a similar position? Canada and New Zealand, maybe?
Canada is beside Russia, so not anywhere near as enviable as Ireland.
As someone from the ROI, I agree with everything you've said. Our neutrality is a paper shield and the weak link in European defence. Can't see it changing though.
>Especially when the claims of neutrality fall a bit flat as they ask other European nations to patrol for Russian subs... Neutral doesn't just mean anyone can piss about in their territorial waters.
No. But if you're asking one side to defend your waters and airspace against the other.... whose side are you on? You know there's literally an agreement that Irish airpsace falls under the British sphere of protection? Yep, totally neutral.
It’s because they know NATO will protect Northern Ireland because it’s a NATO country and shares the island.
They were open to allowing Nazi Germany access to their ports until Churchill told them in no uncertain terms what would happen.
This is one of the reasons why I don't get why so many people often fawn after Ireland as like an enlighten version of the British. They're entire economy is propped up by basically undercutting the rest of the world in Corporation Tax and the Double Irish tax loop swizz and then do fuck all for defence of the continent.
It's also annoying that the irish government expect the British navy and airforce to do the heavy lifting with the defence when the Irish government is slagging the brits off to the irish population...
So let’s say hypothetically Finland are neutral (not sure if they are or not) - should they help the Russians looking for a British sub off Finland and if they don’t help do so be called non-neutral?
Finland is a member of NATO. Yes, if the hypothetical situation was flipped over to Finland and they: routinely sided with Russia diplomatically, had an agreement for Russian planes to patrol their skies, were subject to NATO incursions to which they responded by asking for Russian assistance etc etc, they could not reasonably be called a neutral country. We would all more than happily call them a Russian puppet at that point.
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"neutrality" is an inherently immoral stance to take, Switzerland being the prime historical example. It's always about money
But at least Switzerland could defend their air space or respond to an incident without help, hence not freeloading
>But at least Switzerland could defend their air space Provided it's [during regular business hours](https://aviationhumor.net/the-swiss-air-force-armed-and-dangerous-but-only-in-office-hours/) and not during the air force pilots' designated lunch break.
That's most countries though. Launch an invasion on a Sunday afternoon and you'll be plain sailing until Monday morning.
If you read the article the french and Italians had to intercept it for the Swiss. If your military has less working hour flexibility than even the French and Italians then you have a serious problem...
And they don’t have many problems with Russian submarines, either
Helps being surrounded by NATO, and being in a good relationship with them
Switzerland spends *a lot* on defence, especially during the Cold War. As did (then-neutral) Sweden and Austria.
I didn't say they didn't, doesn't change the fact they made a lot of money from "neutrality" in the 20th century
At least the Swiss have the decency to take their neutrality seriously
They aren’t neutral anymore
Switzerland has compulsory military service, and ongoing enlistment in the reserves until you're 42. The entire country is a fortress, riddled with hidden defensive systems. They only removed the explosives from under their strategic bridges a couple of years ago, and every building has bunkers for every citizen. There is a huge difference between Switzerland's neutrality and Ireland's.
The Swiss are arms dealers, whereas Ireland are not. They profit from their weapons ending up in conflict theatres while being neutral, that is way more immoral
Ireland are not in NATO
I think their point still stands. They are behind NATO lines regardless of being members or not. .I.e. a ground invasion (like Ukraine) is impossible. Ukraine aren't NATO members, but they ARE the front line.
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I agree
Yet it depends on NATO country's to defend them
How was that the excuse when Ireland was neutral before NATO even existed?
>“Ireland simply [does not have the capacity](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/only-russian-good-will-can-keep-irish-no-fly-zone-intact-0cg6jq23d) to deal with threats like this but we need to educate the public to allow us to enter into bespoke arrangements with countries that can,” said Declan Power, the security analyst. “We need to move forward, not have an argument about joining Nato, but setting up bespoke arrangements. We need to explain this all to the public. Ireland has the same population size as Finland and Norway. So its ok for them to call the Norwegians to fly over a very expensive piece of maritime surveillance kit when they have an actual physical border with Russia and then go back to having a defence force that is only slightly better armed than the boy scouts? They also heavily rely on the RAF for watching Russian aircraft near their airspace while the aforementioned other small countries fly F-35 and all the expense that entails. Couple of squadrons of Gripen and about 5 P3s would not break the bank and cover most of their air needs. They would not have to bone up to Red Flag level or be expected to pull serious duty internationally just lend some weight to those who are sort of now defending their air and sea space for free.
I mean, I get why the UK is doing this sort of thing. I'm not a huge fan, but I get it, since we share a land border. If Ireland got flattened by some kind of hostile power it would be an excellent staging post to invade the UK. France I guess I can see as well, being both EU member states and all. I am mystified as to why Norway wouldn't tell Ireland to go and piss off.
Because norway knows it will depend on the UK and needs to protect us as we protect them too. Meanwhile europe knoes from WW2 ireland will be "neutral" while launching terror bombings against the uk in the hopes the enemy grants them northern Ireland
>Meanwhile europe knoes from WW2 ireland will be "neutral" while launching terror bombings against the uk in the hopes the enemy grants them northern Ireland What utter hateful shite that intentionally disregards the tens of thousands of Irish people that joined the British army not long after independence to fight fascism, with thousands giving their lives for it. Way to spit on the memory of WW2 soldiers that you couldn't hold a candle to.
You mean the people decalred traitors and deserters? Only to be reversed in 2012? When nearly every single one of them was dead the Irish government didnt have to answer awkward questions about them?
You're referring to what happened to those that deserted the Irish defence forces to sign up - around 6% of Irish volunteers in the British Army in WW2; while tarnishing all of them. You still don't seem to realise how you compare to these people. Meanwhile, Ireland granted Britain naval bases and returned downed pilots. 8% of Irelands population moved to England to work in factories and support its economy during the war. 2.5% of the population of Ireland joined the British Army which is 1/3 of the proportion of English that did. To give you some cultural context of the time: this all occurred less than 20 years after Irish independence through civil war in which British forces were slaughtering civilians in the street. Weird that I'm getting downvotted for sharing facts about Ireland in WW2 instead of just letting this guy spout his nationalistic bullshit.
It was reversed in 2012. What's your point? Also the opinion of the Irish government until 2012 doesn't change the fact that they still served.
> Meanwhile europe knoes from WW2 ireland will be "neutral" while launching terror bombings against the uk in the hopes the enemy grants them northern Ireland What's your source for the Irish Government bombing Northern Ireland during WWII?
Ah no it was irish citizenery under IRA that bombed the uk, not NI the UK, london etc The irish government simply contented itself declaring any soldier that fought the nazis a traitor.
If Northern Ireland didn't exist, they very well may have. Norway and Britain have been very close allies since WW2, especially military wise. After brexit, they even offered us continued freedom of movement, but the Tories didn't want to reciprocate.
>After brexit, they even offered us continued freedom of movement, but the Tories didn't want to reciprocate. I did not know this.... Just when you think you couldn't hate the Tories more...
We should just publically announce NATO defense policy in the event of war with a near-peer adversary: for the UK to immediately occupy the republic as it clearly can't defend itself, and its fall would imperil NATO (in all likelihood, that's quite possibly what it already is) and see how quickly their defense funding changes.
There's a reason you're not a general
Not sure if this is satire or the most unbelievably tone deaf suggestion ever. Bravo
To be fair, you call any of these three countries and tell them you offer them a free exercise to find a russian sub, their only answer will be "yes please". That's what these guys would do anyway, but now they don't have to take time making a simulation.
Irish man here i remember reading that we barely even had the correct radar for defense. They'll spend millions of euro on consultants to tell them the water pipes are shite and more millions putting meters on peoples water or 10s of millions on electronic voting boothes that never get used. Or buying themselves a fleet of brand new audis with eu money right after the financial collapse. But they wouldnt bother with anything even remotely useful. Refuse to tax corporations even after the EU told them they had to. Shambolic arseholes the lot of them. More concerned now about a conflict that doesnt conern us rather than one that definitely does.
Another Irishman here. This is just embarrassing on our part. We sit and bemoan about the big bad Brits, day in and day out. However when it comes to them protecting/monitoring our skies and seas, we take no issue cause it saves us a few quid. How in the name of fuck can we call ourselves independent people if we can’t even be bothered to create the means of protecting our own sovereignty and people, but instead rely on the same people we forever vilify. We’ve some brass neck.
It's not even being able to defend your own country, it's the fact Ireland enjoys the safety of a Western nation but not willing to support the defence of western freedom, someone else will do it. All the time throwing snide jibes at "the Brits" from the sidelines with an air of superiority. I would be embarrassed too.
Primary Radar, we didn't have it it was part of planned defence spending in the last few years and is currently being implemented.
That specific radar you mention is on the way.
And what use is it? The only Air Defence they currently have is 6 RBS-70 a MAN-PAD's which wouldn't be effective against a russian incursion. Likely Russia would be able to fire stand off missiles and leave before entering range that's if they even have those MAN-PAD's deployed. All they would use the Radar for is call the RAF to come and help.
Why does Europe bend over for Ireland? Tax haven for corps so steal all the high paying jobs and deny tax for other countries. Expect other countries to pay their military equipment.
Because they’ve forever ingrained into their psyche and narrative their forever ending oppression, even by the mere existence of Northern Ireland.
Because they have amazing “soft power” according to some Irish redditors. Even more than the UK!
Honestly, not having the capabilities to protect ourselves makes me feel like our independence is half arsed. Protecting the people of a nation should be the bare necessity of any nation, regardless if it’s one that has always been historically neutral. Instead, we are more than too happy to rely on the same people we say our occupying our country or oppressed us for centuries. It makes zero sense and it is utterly brazen and embarrassing, but clearly not embarrassing enough to promote any meaningful change.
A nations defence should not be left to it's neighbours.
I'd like to be worried but given the historical performance of Russian subs and the level of equipment they are deploying in Ukraine I just wonder if the search will actually turn into Search and rescue.
Subs are the one thing Russia does well. Underwater things are their main specialty, which is why they were able to blow up the pipelines to Europe so easily. ..well subs, disinformation and subverting democracies of other nations with their own disinformation backed candidates.
Ireland has moved away from its performative position on illegal migration now it has to deal with it first hand. It’s time to also now move on from ‘neutrality’, it has a capable enemy that’s interested in exploiting it, whether it likes it or not.
Ireland needs to contribute and pay its fair share. Enough of the freeloading. Being a small country isn’t an excuse. The Baltic States, Norway and Finland also have populations of 5 million or less, just like Ireland, but clearly they take defence much more seriously. “We don’t have any enemies because everyone loves us” isn’t a valid defence strategy anymore.
"We don't have any enemies because our enemies have to get past our neighbours first" more like. Sounds very much like Southern Europe.
Remember Ireland, Spain and the Swiss didn't participate in WW2. Spain had finished a civil war, Switzerland was a good haven. Both of these are effectively pro Nazi. Ireland was taking the moral high ground, by not fighting Nazis and Fascists. Ireland is now taking the moral high ground by not helping Ukraine against Russia. Their people are taking the high ground by backing Hamas. Their country took the high ground by becoming a tax haven despite whining how left wing they are. They're government has 180 degree turned from let refugees in to send them back to the UK just as soon as they had some themselves. They are a joke of a nation, whose own people sold the food during the famine but they take no flak, no responsibility, and side with the wrong side persistently. Grow up, its only because you'd be a European Cuba that Britain and Europe protect you.
Why would you judge a nation by what was going on there 4 generations ago in WW2. It's ridiculous like Irish people judging present day Brits based on the potato famine or Indians judging us on the Bengal famine. And you can't just compare the Ukraine/Russia situation to WW2 either. Most countries in the world aren't helping Ukraine that doesn't make them Nazis lmao. They just don't have a military. Pipe down.
Hamas and tax haven status was 4 generations ago? I know covid fucked up people's perception of time but come on.
In 1939 Ireland had existed as an independent country for less then two decades, during which time they had a civil war. The country was in the process of recovering from centuries of foreign occupation. The Irish government also allowed allied aircraft to use Irish airspace unchallenged, and provided the weather reports used to plan the Normandy Landings.
While I agree that Ireland needs to pay it's fair share, you frothing at the mouth over WW2 is pretty fucking strange. You seriously can't comprehend why Ireland didn't side with Britain during WW2? Why a country might have an issue with the neighbouring colonial power that oppressed them for centuries, stole their land, genocided them and with whom they fought a war just 20 years before WW2? If you use your brain for 5 seconds, I'm sure you can figure it out. Most people at that time in Ireland had friends and family killed by the British, their homes and towns burned by the British (check out the black and tans, the burning of Cork in 1920, or the burning of Balbriggan in 1920, or 100 other examples). Allying with the UK would have dragged Ireland back into a civil war. And despite their history and how hated Britain was, Ireland coordinated with the US on the D-Day landings to give them crucial weather information, released all allied forces but captured all axis troops, and 1 in 15 Irishmen died fighting the Nazis (for comparison's sake it was 1 in 30 British men). But because our Taoiseach (PM) stupidly offered condolences on Hitler's death, we all get labelled Nazi sympathisers for the next 80 years. We actually get more criticism about WW2 than countries like Slovakia, Croatia or others who were literally Nazi allies. Can you imagine telling the Ukraninans in 20 years that they have to help and ally with Russia? And if they didn't want to do it, they were basically nazis? Also, for the record, Ireland is constantly sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine, and our military is helping train Ukranian soldiers.
Offered condolences on Hitler’s death? Can you fucking imagine
Yeah, no shit it was stupid. But not quite as stupid as labeling all of Ireland pro-nazi because of 1 mans comment almost 100 years ago
Honestly the Irish government have really been embarrassing themselves lately
I got a 14 day ban over in /r/Ireland for asking why they keep deleting threads about this. Pathetic. My Mrs is Irish and I spend a lot of time there and am moving there shortly so not going over there to troll I’m on that sub a fair amount.
So can someone explain to me why this is an issue? So what if there is a Russian sub off Ireland, not like they are going to do anything, so what's the big issue? honest question
The could be tapping into under sea cables or attempting to track Nuclear submarines coming in and out of Scotland.
Their are a number of critical infrastructure under the sea of the cost of Ireland, for example, undersea cables, which are critical infrastructure for Western countries including Ireland. Having Russia poking about that area is a huge risk, as they are likely mapping it out or tracking western military vessels, there is also the risk of Russia entering Irelands territory, which again is a huge risk for Western countries especially the UK. Ireland maintains 'neutrality' and has zero capabilities to do anything about Russia "man handling" them if Russia choose to do so, so they rely on the Western countries to do something as it is also a risk to them, hence why all the comments of "freeloading" in this post.
"So what if Russia is gathering forces on the Ukrainian border, not like they are going to do anything, so what's the big issue?" Literally think for 2 seconds before commenting please for the love of God.
Could simply be a case of Russia seeing how Ireland/Britain react and how quickly. You see it quite often with Russian planes entering UK/Irish airspace. They are not neccesairly planning to do anything but rather are testing to see how quickly the RAF can dispatch and tell them to leave. There will be a folder on someone's desk in Moscow that may be used as input for a decision if Russia wants to try something more daring.
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