It’s not unbalanced because there is a massive trade off - the time with Vayne top has 1 less tank/bruiser and if she gets camped she offers no utility to teamfights, only damage. There’s a reason why her WR is the same as bot.. because it’s a massive trade off. Sure some matchups you seriously destroy but that’s kinda just top lane in general - super matchup dependent. If she gets camped and can’t play up and take early turrets cuz she’s scared of getting dove, she can’t put up a massive lead.
Still comes down to your team to put her behind but as of now she isnt inherently more broken than like Garen who just silences you and dumps all his skills on you while running away and being unable to get caught, demanding 2-3 champs minimum to take him down.
LMAO comparing garen to vaynes , garen has trade offs. He has a pretty weak early game and is exploitable early on. Vayne top does not have a weak early game since it's impossible to trade with her without having eaten 3 qs and minion damage for trying to chase her
It's a cheese pick, it doesn't auto win anything.
Play Malphite, q poke her on cd, dont die pre 6. Spam ping your jungle and your R when their up = Vayne cant do shit.
Teamfights? Hold R for Vayne and GG.
> sry for invading btw, i am a traditional melee toplane main and i am
just starting to question what riot is letting you guys cook for so
long.
A pick that makes you have to play differently or conservatively does not make a pick unbalanced.
It's beatable, you don't beat it by running mindlessly at your enemy. You beat it by playing smart and with your team.
yeah good point. I would really like to see gameplay where a vayne player describes the mistakes he sees his enemy top do. do you by chance know sources?
also i meant vayne usually auto wins the lane, not the game, although that can follow easily after. champions without mobility don’t have any chance pushing the lane, so she perma controls where you have to be if you want to at least get xp or a bit gold
i oftenly got replies like „change your playstyle“ „you have to play different vs vayne“ ok but you guys don’t tell me how to play. should i go full river shen and walk around lvl 2 ganking people? bc you cant even farm caster minions if the jungler doesn’t camp or what is the plan
Playing Top against any ranged champ requires you to play differently as a melee.
It's fine to get pushed in, it's fine to go down 20-30 CS but you need to preserve your health and resources.
If you keep losing 40%+ of your health to get 1 ranged minion then you're not making opportunities for your Mid Laner, Jungler or Support to punish the ranged top laner.
If they push you in = They're overextending and vulnerable to ganks.
"But Vayne will outscale me" - Sure but you're still playing a melee top, she can't really match your side lane pressure unless you've fed her a 3 course meal plus dessert.
Many times I've seen Top laners greed for a caster minion, lose 40%+ of their HP and then cry that the ranged top is overpowered or their jungler sucks.
I once was playing Jungle and I had a Sett top vs Vayne. I said "Stay safe until level 3 and I'll come up to gank her. My top laner loses all his health going for a minion".
I type "-.- are you capable of listening? Now you're too low for me to gank"
The main thing Melee top laners don't seem to grasp is the "Preservation of Health and Resources" part of laning vs a Ranged champion.
i do this all the time with yorick, play safe till 6 and then auto win lane, but vs vayne for example this doesn‘t work. on paper yorick counters her, in reality vayne autos once then runs away from all the damage and thanks you for the free 8 gold
The good thing about Yorick is Vayne cant match you in sidelanes unless she's disgustingly fed.
You just avoid her and knock down turrets.
You kinda play like a bait, force enemies to respond to you which gives your teams a numbers advantage.
Yorick is one of those champs the enemy MUST answer or they will lose the game.
There's something that the playerbase in general needs to learn to accept -
The days of lanes containing specific types of champions are long gone.
The days of top laners just running at each other and seeing who has more stats are long gone.
Riot wants diversity in all lanes, which is why we're seeing Ranged top, Mage Junglers, Marksman mid laners, Camille Support and AP Bot laners.
The only time Riot nerfs a champion because of a flex role is when that flex role becomes dominant. Examples being Heimerdinger Support (season or 2 ago), Seraphine Bot, Lucian Mid etc.
Stats wise - Vayne bot sits at around 49.6 winrate and Top around 50.6.
That's not out of line by any stretch of the imagination.
49.6 and 50.6 winrates are not what I'd consider "dominant".
For Vayne specifically - 52 is usually when she starts appearing on Riot's radar.
I use U.GG for my stats - Few years ago u.gg was said to be the most accurate.
I'm under the impression you really want to make Vayne a botlaner only... problem is, Riot themselves don't want to do that since they see it as a cultural thing already. I'm my eyes, she's more of a Toplaner that happens to be played as a botlaner than the inverse.
I'd be thrilled if I could play an actual champion if they reworked vayne to be an 2024+ adc, with dashes, true damage and all. That's not happening, tank mains would protest and we all know those cucks are infiltrated within riot.
Vayne top seems oppressive because people do not know how to adapt. Get counterpicked and say "Look riooot! Ranged top infesting toplane!" and their mental goes to the drain. When TF, Akshan, Quinn have been great picks to counter her for years now.
-"But I got counter picked!" Either dodge or tell your jungler to camp you, simple. C'mon it's a Vayne, an ADC, if you can't kill a Vayne in the early levels it's no wonder you keep writing about ranged top. If you don't, might as well pick the cuck build of Doran's, second wind and Stridebreaker or do the smart thing, pick Malphite.
-"But I'm a melee main, I love melees and I hate ranged top! My honor!", there's no such thing as honor in this game, your made up rules are holding you back from having fun and that's on you.
In reality, Vayne Top is funny as hell, satisfying to pull off and most importantly, it enrages the tank mains. That alone is good enough for me. I'd rather play Kayle or Gwen most of the times I'm autofilled top, but Vayne angles are just too good to ignore. I hope Riot doesn't nerf her to be a slave to the botlane like they did with Lucian. My boy has been a slave to Nami for 3 years now.
i mostly agree and most of all respect your opinion. two points are just not really right for me. I don‘t ff and don‘t dodge, because when i want to play i want to play (and learn). so sometimes you just don‘t get last pick and i don‘t want to fall asleep watching myself play gnar or rumble in those cases (although picking rumble vs vayne sounds fun). also in my eyes only a true perma camp can win a hardcountered lane and gives the enemy jungler the chance to camp mid or bot. The other point is that i don’t complain about range tops, i especially complain about vayne because of how many tools she has to not let anybody interact with her. kayle and teemo are only good vs bad players, akshan and quinn are predictable, gnar players have an average iq of 80, jayce and ryze players need to have an iq of 130 and urgot isn’t even ranged.
i don‘t think anything of honor in ranked. I don‘t judge ranged players i just don‘t like playing them myself. maybe that will change with vayne, i already like seeing melees suffer from lethality yorick why should i even rely on ghoules or ult am i right?
It’s not unbalanced you’re bad at the game. Any melee champ can beat Vayne if they are good mechanically and understand how to trade in lane with a ranged champ. She’s not OP, most top laners are just spoiled brats who cry when they have to play against a ranged champion rather than learning the game.
ok, and i think if you lose to any melee like garen or darius or sett without summ diff, you suck. please help me learn the game then, explain what darius could do for example.
I have almost a million mastery points on Vayne and one tricked her top for two seasons, there are plenty of players that can roll her on a melee champion, because they know what they’re doing and practice rather than whining about the matchup on the internet
Darius can use the side bushes as well as his summoners to catch Vayne and stick on her, a good Darius against a good Vayne is actually a very fair matchup, the Darius just has to understand that he can’t trade early and has to let her push him in, and wait for the right opportunity to all in
so you’re saying as long as darius is visible early he should run, ok good point cant argue with that, and after a while he should wait in side bushes with 40 farm less to „kill her“? idk man all you‘re doing is disrespecting me for complaining about the matchup, yes im complainging but i want to learn. please stop that passive agressive bs.
Yes that’s exactly what he should do, bc the Vayne is going to misstep at some point and get one shot, unless you’re playing above platinum. I’m not being passive aggressive, I’m being aggressive. If we played against each you other, you on Vayne and me on Darius, I promise you I would stomp you purely because I understand the matchup and you clearly don’t.
Yep, I destroy any emerald Vayne with Trynd. Just force her E twice and she has zero mana. It seems like everyone who picks her here is frustrated tank main who then promptly lose because they can't win trades by afkstanding next to you. Honestly, if something is broken in this game, it's braindead, zero effort high reward champs like Malph or tank Sion.
Exactly bro it is not that hard once you understand why you’re losing. It’s not because the champion’s good it’s because they’re playing into her like she’s a normal top
i wanna see that, i don‘t have any games on vayne, but if you have at least 20, his darius will stand absolutely no chance, if he doesn’t have million points on him too. good luck waiting 21 secons for grab and feeling like pushing a rock uphill reaching her xD
What use is your argument if you can only beat terrible vaynes on darius? That‘s like saying yuumi top is good because you can beat intermediate bots with it
Gosh I play vayne exclusively on bot and she sucks so much... The passive is now useless to try to do some poke. Please, not another nerf due to people playing her on top and toplaners crying she's unbalanced...
Top laners just can't accept that the game has changed.
Ranged tops are not going anywhere, time for them to learn to play against them!
Just like Mage bot ain't going anywhere!
I didn't see that, apologies :)
If we have to "l2p" against bullshit like Brand, Sera, Syndra, Veigar bot then they should l2p against Ranged tops.
The main reasons Vayne players go top is because
- Less dogshit matchups
- Not bound to a lane partner
- Solo XP
Everyone here will be biased , but yes you are right vaynes is one of the must frustrating top laners to play against , "oh but your team wont have a bruiser" - they won't need on since their own one will be extremely behind and supports like nautlius which is always popular will cover any of your teams lack of resistance. "Oh but you will be camped" - if you get camped and are aware of this and play around it you give your other laners an extreme advantage and it's not like you are a sitting duck you have your q and e to escape
I'm a toplaner too and a Yorick OTP, which is a good pick into vayne, but her duelling strength is insane after 3 items. Even when ahead at some point you can't stop her.
There are counters, but majority of toplaners don't play Cassiopeia, Varus, Teemo. (Malphite is her ban, or she is lastpick).
Though she is very comp dependent, but even if your team wins, you will have an unfun lane/game.
ye but i still can’t believe the high win rate on yorick vs vayne. have you seen [This](https://youtu.be/YAjQUB25-Z8?si=14O7WXuvPRc3WBvS) slogdog is considered one of the best yoricks, and you can truly see him having no chance to lower her health in any way that would matter, even with maiden and multible full grave E’s and when fights happen she is invis 80% and runs like barry allen
Vayne is a very difficult champ to play and the vast majority of top vaynes are not mains.
I play in E2-D3 lobbies depending if I duoQ or not, and Vayne top is very manageable because people play her so bad.
The truth is, the matchup is Vayne favored if both players are extremely skilled and that is the problem Slogdog has, but we low elos don't.
What frustrates me is how hard she outscalles immobile champs, like Yorick, and can easily win with item disadvantage.
first actual advice i got here besides getting camped by my jungler, which i can not control. midlaners being down to swap is not in my control too but way more propable. I know that going for caster minions is suicide…
Team comp matters in midgame and the best team comp wins almost every time, but Vayne top is not a bad pick for most team compositions. She is a flex, so enemy team will have a hard time when they will see vayne on first 2 picks. She has different play styles so she can fit in more compositions than other champions and she can be kinda durable still and provide space for her team with her ult and q's.
Vayne problem is that she's weak early (especially after q cd change early) and scaling to late. She needs a team, that will be able to endure early game with minimal losses. Well, and another problem is that toplaner can play with fleet, second wind and doran's shield so all Vayne autos will be almost useless which decreases her strength in lane even further.
So yeah, team comp matters but Vayne is not bad for it, even if she looks like squishy adc champion - with proper runes, builds and play style she can be very annoying to deal with.
It’s not unbalanced because there is a massive trade off - the time with Vayne top has 1 less tank/bruiser and if she gets camped she offers no utility to teamfights, only damage. There’s a reason why her WR is the same as bot.. because it’s a massive trade off. Sure some matchups you seriously destroy but that’s kinda just top lane in general - super matchup dependent. If she gets camped and can’t play up and take early turrets cuz she’s scared of getting dove, she can’t put up a massive lead. Still comes down to your team to put her behind but as of now she isnt inherently more broken than like Garen who just silences you and dumps all his skills on you while running away and being unable to get caught, demanding 2-3 champs minimum to take him down.
LMAO comparing garen to vaynes , garen has trade offs. He has a pretty weak early game and is exploitable early on. Vayne top does not have a weak early game since it's impossible to trade with her without having eaten 3 qs and minion damage for trying to chase her
It's a cheese pick, it doesn't auto win anything. Play Malphite, q poke her on cd, dont die pre 6. Spam ping your jungle and your R when their up = Vayne cant do shit. Teamfights? Hold R for Vayne and GG. > sry for invading btw, i am a traditional melee toplane main and i am just starting to question what riot is letting you guys cook for so long. A pick that makes you have to play differently or conservatively does not make a pick unbalanced. It's beatable, you don't beat it by running mindlessly at your enemy. You beat it by playing smart and with your team.
yeah good point. I would really like to see gameplay where a vayne player describes the mistakes he sees his enemy top do. do you by chance know sources? also i meant vayne usually auto wins the lane, not the game, although that can follow easily after. champions without mobility don’t have any chance pushing the lane, so she perma controls where you have to be if you want to at least get xp or a bit gold i oftenly got replies like „change your playstyle“ „you have to play different vs vayne“ ok but you guys don’t tell me how to play. should i go full river shen and walk around lvl 2 ganking people? bc you cant even farm caster minions if the jungler doesn’t camp or what is the plan
Playing Top against any ranged champ requires you to play differently as a melee. It's fine to get pushed in, it's fine to go down 20-30 CS but you need to preserve your health and resources. If you keep losing 40%+ of your health to get 1 ranged minion then you're not making opportunities for your Mid Laner, Jungler or Support to punish the ranged top laner. If they push you in = They're overextending and vulnerable to ganks. "But Vayne will outscale me" - Sure but you're still playing a melee top, she can't really match your side lane pressure unless you've fed her a 3 course meal plus dessert. Many times I've seen Top laners greed for a caster minion, lose 40%+ of their HP and then cry that the ranged top is overpowered or their jungler sucks. I once was playing Jungle and I had a Sett top vs Vayne. I said "Stay safe until level 3 and I'll come up to gank her. My top laner loses all his health going for a minion". I type "-.- are you capable of listening? Now you're too low for me to gank" The main thing Melee top laners don't seem to grasp is the "Preservation of Health and Resources" part of laning vs a Ranged champion.
i do this all the time with yorick, play safe till 6 and then auto win lane, but vs vayne for example this doesn‘t work. on paper yorick counters her, in reality vayne autos once then runs away from all the damage and thanks you for the free 8 gold
The good thing about Yorick is Vayne cant match you in sidelanes unless she's disgustingly fed. You just avoid her and knock down turrets. You kinda play like a bait, force enemies to respond to you which gives your teams a numbers advantage. Yorick is one of those champs the enemy MUST answer or they will lose the game.
There's something that the playerbase in general needs to learn to accept - The days of lanes containing specific types of champions are long gone. The days of top laners just running at each other and seeing who has more stats are long gone. Riot wants diversity in all lanes, which is why we're seeing Ranged top, Mage Junglers, Marksman mid laners, Camille Support and AP Bot laners. The only time Riot nerfs a champion because of a flex role is when that flex role becomes dominant. Examples being Heimerdinger Support (season or 2 ago), Seraphine Bot, Lucian Mid etc. Stats wise - Vayne bot sits at around 49.6 winrate and Top around 50.6. That's not out of line by any stretch of the imagination. 49.6 and 50.6 winrates are not what I'd consider "dominant". For Vayne specifically - 52 is usually when she starts appearing on Riot's radar. I use U.GG for my stats - Few years ago u.gg was said to be the most accurate.
I'm under the impression you really want to make Vayne a botlaner only... problem is, Riot themselves don't want to do that since they see it as a cultural thing already. I'm my eyes, she's more of a Toplaner that happens to be played as a botlaner than the inverse. I'd be thrilled if I could play an actual champion if they reworked vayne to be an 2024+ adc, with dashes, true damage and all. That's not happening, tank mains would protest and we all know those cucks are infiltrated within riot. Vayne top seems oppressive because people do not know how to adapt. Get counterpicked and say "Look riooot! Ranged top infesting toplane!" and their mental goes to the drain. When TF, Akshan, Quinn have been great picks to counter her for years now. -"But I got counter picked!" Either dodge or tell your jungler to camp you, simple. C'mon it's a Vayne, an ADC, if you can't kill a Vayne in the early levels it's no wonder you keep writing about ranged top. If you don't, might as well pick the cuck build of Doran's, second wind and Stridebreaker or do the smart thing, pick Malphite. -"But I'm a melee main, I love melees and I hate ranged top! My honor!", there's no such thing as honor in this game, your made up rules are holding you back from having fun and that's on you. In reality, Vayne Top is funny as hell, satisfying to pull off and most importantly, it enrages the tank mains. That alone is good enough for me. I'd rather play Kayle or Gwen most of the times I'm autofilled top, but Vayne angles are just too good to ignore. I hope Riot doesn't nerf her to be a slave to the botlane like they did with Lucian. My boy has been a slave to Nami for 3 years now.
>Lucian been a slave to nami Ayo brother watch your words xD
i mostly agree and most of all respect your opinion. two points are just not really right for me. I don‘t ff and don‘t dodge, because when i want to play i want to play (and learn). so sometimes you just don‘t get last pick and i don‘t want to fall asleep watching myself play gnar or rumble in those cases (although picking rumble vs vayne sounds fun). also in my eyes only a true perma camp can win a hardcountered lane and gives the enemy jungler the chance to camp mid or bot. The other point is that i don’t complain about range tops, i especially complain about vayne because of how many tools she has to not let anybody interact with her. kayle and teemo are only good vs bad players, akshan and quinn are predictable, gnar players have an average iq of 80, jayce and ryze players need to have an iq of 130 and urgot isn’t even ranged. i don‘t think anything of honor in ranked. I don‘t judge ranged players i just don‘t like playing them myself. maybe that will change with vayne, i already like seeing melees suffer from lethality yorick why should i even rely on ghoules or ult am i right?
It’s not unbalanced you’re bad at the game. Any melee champ can beat Vayne if they are good mechanically and understand how to trade in lane with a ranged champ. She’s not OP, most top laners are just spoiled brats who cry when they have to play against a ranged champion rather than learning the game.
ok, and i think if you lose to any melee like garen or darius or sett without summ diff, you suck. please help me learn the game then, explain what darius could do for example.
I have almost a million mastery points on Vayne and one tricked her top for two seasons, there are plenty of players that can roll her on a melee champion, because they know what they’re doing and practice rather than whining about the matchup on the internet
Darius can use the side bushes as well as his summoners to catch Vayne and stick on her, a good Darius against a good Vayne is actually a very fair matchup, the Darius just has to understand that he can’t trade early and has to let her push him in, and wait for the right opportunity to all in
so you’re saying as long as darius is visible early he should run, ok good point cant argue with that, and after a while he should wait in side bushes with 40 farm less to „kill her“? idk man all you‘re doing is disrespecting me for complaining about the matchup, yes im complainging but i want to learn. please stop that passive agressive bs.
Yes that’s exactly what he should do, bc the Vayne is going to misstep at some point and get one shot, unless you’re playing above platinum. I’m not being passive aggressive, I’m being aggressive. If we played against each you other, you on Vayne and me on Darius, I promise you I would stomp you purely because I understand the matchup and you clearly don’t.
Yep, I destroy any emerald Vayne with Trynd. Just force her E twice and she has zero mana. It seems like everyone who picks her here is frustrated tank main who then promptly lose because they can't win trades by afkstanding next to you. Honestly, if something is broken in this game, it's braindead, zero effort high reward champs like Malph or tank Sion.
Exactly bro it is not that hard once you understand why you’re losing. It’s not because the champion’s good it’s because they’re playing into her like she’s a normal top
I‘ll gladly play vayne into your darius, what‘s your ign?
i wanna see that, i don‘t have any games on vayne, but if you have at least 20, his darius will stand absolutely no chance, if he doesn’t have million points on him too. good luck waiting 21 secons for grab and feeling like pushing a rock uphill reaching her xD
I should have 500+ vayne top games. Am on vacation rn so it‘ll have to wait a week but I don‘t think he‘ll take up the challenge anyways.
Did I ask you?
What use is your argument if you can only beat terrible vaynes on darius? That‘s like saying yuumi top is good because you can beat intermediate bots with it
Gosh I play vayne exclusively on bot and she sucks so much... The passive is now useless to try to do some poke. Please, not another nerf due to people playing her on top and toplaners crying she's unbalanced...
I agree, i only play vayne adc and hate this new vayne top meta, people saying shes a toplaner and not a adc infurates me
Bot meta is basically Caitlyn, Ashe, Jhin, Jinx. Until Crit gets nerfed or on-hit gets buffed - I don't think people's mindset will change.
Nah people just don’t know how to play vayne adc and cope on top lane
Top laners just can't accept that the game has changed. Ranged tops are not going anywhere, time for them to learn to play against them! Just like Mage bot ain't going anywhere!
What? I said I play exclusively vayne adc
I didn't see that, apologies :) If we have to "l2p" against bullshit like Brand, Sera, Syndra, Veigar bot then they should l2p against Ranged tops. The main reasons Vayne players go top is because - Less dogshit matchups - Not bound to a lane partner - Solo XP
I understand why people are playing vayne top, I’m just an old school player that refuses to go top with my main
Fair.
49.6 bot laner and a 50.6 top laner. There's no grounds for a nerf, she isn't out of line.
Everyone here will be biased , but yes you are right vaynes is one of the must frustrating top laners to play against , "oh but your team wont have a bruiser" - they won't need on since their own one will be extremely behind and supports like nautlius which is always popular will cover any of your teams lack of resistance. "Oh but you will be camped" - if you get camped and are aware of this and play around it you give your other laners an extreme advantage and it's not like you are a sitting duck you have your q and e to escape
I'm a toplaner too and a Yorick OTP, which is a good pick into vayne, but her duelling strength is insane after 3 items. Even when ahead at some point you can't stop her. There are counters, but majority of toplaners don't play Cassiopeia, Varus, Teemo. (Malphite is her ban, or she is lastpick). Though she is very comp dependent, but even if your team wins, you will have an unfun lane/game.
ye but i still can’t believe the high win rate on yorick vs vayne. have you seen [This](https://youtu.be/YAjQUB25-Z8?si=14O7WXuvPRc3WBvS) slogdog is considered one of the best yoricks, and you can truly see him having no chance to lower her health in any way that would matter, even with maiden and multible full grave E’s and when fights happen she is invis 80% and runs like barry allen
Vayne is a very difficult champ to play and the vast majority of top vaynes are not mains. I play in E2-D3 lobbies depending if I duoQ or not, and Vayne top is very manageable because people play her so bad. The truth is, the matchup is Vayne favored if both players are extremely skilled and that is the problem Slogdog has, but we low elos don't. What frustrates me is how hard she outscalles immobile champs, like Yorick, and can easily win with item disadvantage.
Swap with midlane. Most midlaners shit on Vayne. And most Toplaners can survive against midlaners.
first actual advice i got here besides getting camped by my jungler, which i can not control. midlaners being down to swap is not in my control too but way more propable. I know that going for caster minions is suicide…
She's as same in toplane as in botlane in terms of power level. Her winrate is the same.
thats probably because this pick ruins team comp
Well, then Vayne top wouldn't have below 50% in first 25 minutes.
[удалено]
Team comp matters in midgame and the best team comp wins almost every time, but Vayne top is not a bad pick for most team compositions. She is a flex, so enemy team will have a hard time when they will see vayne on first 2 picks. She has different play styles so she can fit in more compositions than other champions and she can be kinda durable still and provide space for her team with her ult and q's. Vayne problem is that she's weak early (especially after q cd change early) and scaling to late. She needs a team, that will be able to endure early game with minimal losses. Well, and another problem is that toplaner can play with fleet, second wind and doran's shield so all Vayne autos will be almost useless which decreases her strength in lane even further. So yeah, team comp matters but Vayne is not bad for it, even if she looks like squishy adc champion - with proper runes, builds and play style she can be very annoying to deal with.
Yes, vayne top is disgusting and people should only play her adc in my humble opinion