I don’t know if it’s a lack of funding, but more so a lack of equal distribution. Like private schools shouldn’t be getting any funding, and the funding they get should be spent elsewhere.
Education shouldn't be testing the limits of what you can memorise, but test critical thinking, creativity, etc. It shouldn't be 6 hours 5 days a week of being told what to write and say, but help students actually become well-rounded people
I also don’t like how VCE basically moulds your brain to a certain type of thinking, (can depend on the subjects you’re doing) (especially with English). I might be wrong but this is what I personally feel
Teachers who are paid well and care would 100% make schooling way better. I found most primary school teachers were very passionate about teaching but high school teachers can be pretty bad at actually teaching…
Exams. They should be written in English, not VCAAese and shouldn't require mind reading abilities. The exam should test your knowledge of the content and ability to apply it, and nothing else.
It's more frustrating when that's not it, because it reduces the sense of control.
Yes, why should they get money from the government to build swimming pools and giant gyms while a half of the classrooms in our schools are portables, and a third don't have air conditioning.
You are graded on a curve in some American high schools, esp. when they’re accelerated subjects 🤡. It’s called ‘weighted Grade Point Average’. And because America is way too big to employ something like the ATAR system, people need extracurriculars so that they can brag about how they’re “unique”.
i would put more emphasis on things like the arts/history and overall just how the world works bcos in the real world those things matter more than sciences and I would probably get rid of the ranking system in VCE and how your cohorts exam performance can impact on your score.. ya
Yeah, how exactly does others in your school affect your exam score? Because, overall my school isn't very academic, will this have much of an impact on me??
Well I’m not an expert but essentially if your cohort does well on sacs but in comparison, badly on the exam it looks as thought your schools’s sacs were too easy, so you get scaled down. I’ve heard that being ranked first in a subject means that your cohort does not impact you.
Abolish private schools, public schools are so overlooked especially by the politicians who never need to interact with them personally and the public schools are clearly suffering because of it. Quality teachers shouldn’t be funneled into those schools because parents can shell out tens of thousands of dollars a year
Yeah that is fair. I go to a Catholic school so $6,000 a year but still a lot and it still isn't fair because not everybody can afford this. If there were no private schools then maybe the government would fund public ones better.
yeah, that’s my view exactly. i feel the same about hospitals, like if they’re all public they’ll all get the attention and funding they need, whereas the privatization of these industries just leads to a greater class divide
ATA**R**(and a lot of VCE as a result) is a ranking tool, not just an achievement measuring tool. I have often thought about the competitive and stressful aspects of VCE, but I have no idea how this could be changed while still retaining a method of ranking students. Say they removed the competitive aspects, now external orgs are gonna host uni ranking exams. Think of the acer scholarship tests, indian and chinese uni entrance exams, etc. It invites even more stress and decreases fairness. The best argument I could think of for external entrance testing is that not all students want to go to uni and thus shouldn't have to be stressed as such, but that's a useless point when VCEVM and unscored are a thing.
i mean, i feel like education should just be available. why do you need to pass an exam to get into uni? the students who don't end up doing well get weeded out anyway. i know logistically this might not be viable but it just makes more sense to me
> i feel like education should just be available
That would be good, yeah. Not very practical though.
>why do you need to pass an exam to get into uni?
If you're talking about the end-of-year exam, there's simply no other way to scale marks between schools other than getting the whole cohort to do the same assessment. Doing it on the whole year's content is def stressful, but that's the best way to ensure fairness across all the topics.
If you're talking about assessments in general, that's the only way to rank academic ability. Unis are gonna use third party assessments if vce cannot deliver a ranking, and that's worse for everyone involved.
1. Hire more qualified teachers (for public schools)
2. Abolish private schools
3. No longer have English in the 'top four', but still keep it compulsory
The timetables!! Obviously this varies from school to school, but there being such a high minimum for instructed hours really restricts how flexible a school can me. Being at school and in class for 5-8 hours a day, 5 days a week is a lot, especially for someone like me who struggles to work during structured class time. I would much prefer more lecture based content with some tutorials, but with much more independence for completing tasks. Having one or two classes a day sounds much more manageable than the 4+ most of us have rn. I hate having so much wasteful class time, when I really could be doing the work independently in the same time.
I also really hate task based assessments, and would much prefer tests or essays with a set time constraint and no prior work, other than study and basic essay prep, required.
I see what you mean. Personally, I would like to do one subject at a time, like do just art every day for a few weeks then move onto my next subject. Or maybe two subjects at a time.
If you don’t mind a parent chiming in…
Schools zones, especially when the public schools are so wildly different from one another. Invest into public schools so that they are all ‘good’ schools.
Homework, there is way too much of it. Kids don’t need to be at school all day and then come home to spend hours on homework.
Student behaviour. It should be easier to expel students, and there should be schools for those students to go to that are equipped to handle students who aren’t willing/able to engage in mainstream schooling in a non violent manner. All students and teachers should feel safe going to school.
Teachers wages and workloads. The money teachers receive compared to their workloads is ridiculous. I’m someone that would have the appropriate skills and aptitude to be a maths teacher (of which there is a shortage) But why would I? I can make more money working significantly less hours elsewhere. I don’t take work home on the weekends, and I don’t have to worry about being abuse or violence in the workplace.
I do think that English should not inherently be a top 4 subject, but English is actually super useful, and removing the requirement will only harm people who don't chose English. There is no degree in any university that doesn't require proficiency in writing, and definitely none that don't require the critical thinking and comprehension skills taught in English. Even outside of attending university, there is not one person who, in their daily life, will not benefit in some manner by being eloquent and highly literate. There are way too many people going about their lives with zero comprehension skills, or who can barely piece an email together.
But that’s not what English teaches. There is no reason for us to spend 1 lesson on expository writing (arguably the most versatile and useful type of writing you learn in English) and then half the year analysing texts
It doesn’t make any sense like when am I going to need to write a creative text when I don’t want to be an author of fiction. When am I going need to analyse a book or a movie when I’m planning on studying science after high school
English is my hardest subject, it’s the subject that has caused me the most stress, it’s the only subject that has brought me to tears. It is a subject without use, without worth, without a reason to exist for the majority of people who take it
English doesn’t teach you to write emails
That's annoying for you. Maybe they should create an English for life subject or something so you can just learn more practical English skills, that would be cool.
As somebody who’s very science oriented, I’d love to see a more stem related English subject that could focus on analysing how scientific reports, posters, and things like that are written. (Especially as the 600 word limit in vce sciences makes it really difficult to properly express my ideas whilst staying grammatically correct on my posters)
English teaches you English, which is a transferable skill. English does teach you how to write emails, because English teaches you English. You shouldn't need someone to sit you down and explain how to write every individual style of writing, but instead you should have enough competency in your own language, (or at least the language of your formal education) to transfer skills from one style to another.
Text analysis is so important, even though the texts themselves might not be relevant, the skills taught are. The fundamental skill in a text analysis is being able to come to your own conclusions, based on evidence, and to defend them. That's super important, that's how good opinions are formed. You're very much missing something if you think a scientist won't need those skills. University science involves reading, and it also involves writing. You need to be able to read and analyze scientific studies, to write reports and essays, to understand real life implications of discoveries or concepts. These are all required in a bachelor's of science. Of course your English skills will specialise as you move into whatever scientific niche you chose, but a foundational level of English is necessary for those skills to even develop in the first place.
English is a hard subject, I'm dyslexic myself, so I get it. But it's incredibly important, and although your struggles with it are totally legitimate, an appropriate level of English proficiency is necessary for anyone who wants to pursue tertiary study. I do have frustrations with VCE English, and the course is absolutely not perfect, but English itself is incredibly important.
Honestly the whole system needs to be overhauled. We should get rid of standardised testing and use a wide range of assessments that test skills such as creativity, problem solving, etc. Standardised testing causes a lot of unnecessary stress and overall does not provide students with the skills needed to tackle the real world. A wider range of assessments that test on an array of skills would give a far more accurate picture into someone's ability and potential while also giving them the skills to flourish.
The other best way is doing a diploma and transition to 2nd year of a bachelors, if you can't get a bachelors immediately with your ATAR. You literally do not lose any time whatsoever and will graduate the same time as if you did a first years of bachelors
Handwriting stamina is such an important skill to develop, if you're going to be sitting SACS and exams on paper. Like someone who does everything on their laptop except tests will absolutely not write as much, or as well, as someone who writes on paper for everything.
if handwriting was optional i would still choose to do it for this reason, the point is that i would get to choose when i do it and what tasks i practice it with
for example, if it's my first draft for english and i'm only concerned with fleshing out my ideas and i know i am going to make a ton of edits, then it's going to be exponentially easier for me to type and this is what i would choose, whereas if i'm prepping for exams i would choose to handwrite
A few things.
1. Open book exams for all subjects. That is allowing a book of notes or a bound reference like in some maths exams. As someone who struggled with the pressure in exams despite doing the work but never really excelled. I firmly believe that if you do the work and make good notes then it is still a fair assessment. Those who take the piss or don’t do the work still will not excel. You need to make it practical so allowing someone to take in an entire essay to copy is not what I mean here but allowing a page of quotes and/or notes to prompt you.
2. Removal of exams all together in more practical subjects and have the subject based on assignments or practical tasks. In particular for design and IT subjects.
3. Removal of the competitiveness of ATAR or an overhaul of the system. While I get this is hard, students need to be reminded that your ATAR is your rank for one year, not the rest of your life.
4. Every school required to at least offer VET subjects and a 3rd party coming in to explain about additional options and pathways for completing high school.
1. How are you gonna regulate that? Are we really gonna have to do inspections of tens of thousands of reference papers? So much work goes into increasing the fairness of marks, through scaling and aggregates and ranking and so much more. You can't fairly pass/fail reference sheets based on their content, at least not in any way that I can think of.
2. VCAA-marked exams are essential for fairly ranking students.
3. Please see my other comment, VCE and ATAR is primarily a competitive ranked system, that is its purpose.
4. This sounds fair, but it's unrealistic to say that every school should provide x amount of vet subjects. what about regional schools who might not have specialised teachers for VET? are they to close down?
Literally what is the point in VCE if you can bring entire reference books in for all exams. Imagine if I just write every single scale down, along with every diminished chord and shit for music. Imagine if I had EVERY piece of data I needed for Geography. It is needed that you have taken in information to actually complete the subjects. This bound reference book idea you’ve mentioned literally will just be students copy and pasting mindlessly into the exam. Maybe a single sheet of paper is more likely?
For the practical subjects not getting exams, or making them a practical exam is already kind of in place. Music performance has a music performance exam. What are woodwork students meant to do? Make a bench from scratch like the great British bake off? It’s unnecessary and those classes have theory anyways so why get rid of their exam? They showcase these skills through SACs and assessments throughout the year which already make up half of their overall mark.
The removal of competitiveness in VCE is literally just removing VCE altogether. Yes it is stressful to be against all your classmates but it is there as a way to make studying more meaningful and allows students (who want to try) to try their best. Everyone knows it doesn’t define their future, we’ve seen all the talk online every single year when ATARs get released. It is spoken about in school to year 11s and 12s all the time, or at least in my school.
I get your points are your opinion but god they would just not work.
have Mountains132 bound to a stake and burned alive
Ya damn right.
il gather the wood to help burn him
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Keep this thought in mind for the rest of your life and make sure you vote for the party that will properly fund public education please!
And ban social media for under 16, good luck ALP sucking up to the rwfw
Labor has been in power for like 10 years buddy
Exactly my point. Other party’s could run on a ‘let’s fund public education campaign’ in the future?
I don’t know if it’s a lack of funding, but more so a lack of equal distribution. Like private schools shouldn’t be getting any funding, and the funding they get should be spent elsewhere.
Education shouldn't be testing the limits of what you can memorise, but test critical thinking, creativity, etc. It shouldn't be 6 hours 5 days a week of being told what to write and say, but help students actually become well-rounded people
I also don’t like how VCE basically moulds your brain to a certain type of thinking, (can depend on the subjects you’re doing) (especially with English). I might be wrong but this is what I personally feel
Kinda why I chose the subjects I did because you can be a bit more self-directed and creative with them.
New switch back to phonics is a move in this direction
Teachers who are paid well and care would 100% make schooling way better. I found most primary school teachers were very passionate about teaching but high school teachers can be pretty bad at actually teaching…
Exams. They should be written in English, not VCAAese and shouldn't require mind reading abilities. The exam should test your knowledge of the content and ability to apply it, and nothing else. It's more frustrating when that's not it, because it reduces the sense of control.
i would abolish private schools and school zoning
Yes, why should they get money from the government to build swimming pools and giant gyms while a half of the classrooms in our schools are portables, and a third don't have air conditioning.
more of a uni thing but measuring individual ss for relevant subjects rather than an just the atar
Make teachers make me sit next to pretty girl so I can get a gf
idk if this is just my school but more time for revision cause so much of the time two lessons before exams we’re still covering uncovered content
Grading people on a curve is evil and outdated. The point should be actually learning shit.
To be fair, if you take away the curve, then the top universities will start demanding you to do 500 extracurriculars, cure cancer etc like America
You are graded on a curve in some American high schools, esp. when they’re accelerated subjects 🤡. It’s called ‘weighted Grade Point Average’. And because America is way too big to employ something like the ATAR system, people need extracurriculars so that they can brag about how they’re “unique”.
i would put more emphasis on things like the arts/history and overall just how the world works bcos in the real world those things matter more than sciences and I would probably get rid of the ranking system in VCE and how your cohorts exam performance can impact on your score.. ya
Yeah, how exactly does others in your school affect your exam score? Because, overall my school isn't very academic, will this have much of an impact on me??
Well I’m not an expert but essentially if your cohort does well on sacs but in comparison, badly on the exam it looks as thought your schools’s sacs were too easy, so you get scaled down. I’ve heard that being ranked first in a subject means that your cohort does not impact you.
Okay, thank you.
That they upgrade the tech subjects. No one uses Hungarian notation anymore.
Abolish private schools, public schools are so overlooked especially by the politicians who never need to interact with them personally and the public schools are clearly suffering because of it. Quality teachers shouldn’t be funneled into those schools because parents can shell out tens of thousands of dollars a year
Yeah that is fair. I go to a Catholic school so $6,000 a year but still a lot and it still isn't fair because not everybody can afford this. If there were no private schools then maybe the government would fund public ones better.
yeah, that’s my view exactly. i feel the same about hospitals, like if they’re all public they’ll all get the attention and funding they need, whereas the privatization of these industries just leads to a greater class divide
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You're not funny bro shut the fuck up with your repetitive as joke
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cunt actually shut the fuck up
exams & standardised testing has been proven to be bs & also harbours a lot of stress so get rid of that
ATA**R**(and a lot of VCE as a result) is a ranking tool, not just an achievement measuring tool. I have often thought about the competitive and stressful aspects of VCE, but I have no idea how this could be changed while still retaining a method of ranking students. Say they removed the competitive aspects, now external orgs are gonna host uni ranking exams. Think of the acer scholarship tests, indian and chinese uni entrance exams, etc. It invites even more stress and decreases fairness. The best argument I could think of for external entrance testing is that not all students want to go to uni and thus shouldn't have to be stressed as such, but that's a useless point when VCEVM and unscored are a thing.
i mean, i feel like education should just be available. why do you need to pass an exam to get into uni? the students who don't end up doing well get weeded out anyway. i know logistically this might not be viable but it just makes more sense to me
> i feel like education should just be available That would be good, yeah. Not very practical though. >why do you need to pass an exam to get into uni? If you're talking about the end-of-year exam, there's simply no other way to scale marks between schools other than getting the whole cohort to do the same assessment. Doing it on the whole year's content is def stressful, but that's the best way to ensure fairness across all the topics. If you're talking about assessments in general, that's the only way to rank academic ability. Unis are gonna use third party assessments if vce cannot deliver a ranking, and that's worse for everyone involved.
> standardised testing has been proven to be bs source?
1. Hire more qualified teachers (for public schools) 2. Abolish private schools 3. No longer have English in the 'top four', but still keep it compulsory
The timetables!! Obviously this varies from school to school, but there being such a high minimum for instructed hours really restricts how flexible a school can me. Being at school and in class for 5-8 hours a day, 5 days a week is a lot, especially for someone like me who struggles to work during structured class time. I would much prefer more lecture based content with some tutorials, but with much more independence for completing tasks. Having one or two classes a day sounds much more manageable than the 4+ most of us have rn. I hate having so much wasteful class time, when I really could be doing the work independently in the same time. I also really hate task based assessments, and would much prefer tests or essays with a set time constraint and no prior work, other than study and basic essay prep, required.
100% agree with this!
This sounds like the epitome of university! I think you'll thrive in that setting haha if you decide to choose uni.
I see what you mean. Personally, I would like to do one subject at a time, like do just art every day for a few weeks then move onto my next subject. Or maybe two subjects at a time.
Oh that would be so nice!! But I think I might get bored like that, imagine 4 weeks straight of your least favourite subjects
Oh yeah that's a good point. I would like it for my good subjects though!
If you don’t mind a parent chiming in… Schools zones, especially when the public schools are so wildly different from one another. Invest into public schools so that they are all ‘good’ schools. Homework, there is way too much of it. Kids don’t need to be at school all day and then come home to spend hours on homework. Student behaviour. It should be easier to expel students, and there should be schools for those students to go to that are equipped to handle students who aren’t willing/able to engage in mainstream schooling in a non violent manner. All students and teachers should feel safe going to school. Teachers wages and workloads. The money teachers receive compared to their workloads is ridiculous. I’m someone that would have the appropriate skills and aptitude to be a maths teacher (of which there is a shortage) But why would I? I can make more money working significantly less hours elsewhere. I don’t take work home on the weekends, and I don’t have to worry about being abuse or violence in the workplace.
Remove English as a forced subject it’s gonna be the reason I don’t get into the uni course I want and it’s the most useless subject of all time
I do think that English should not inherently be a top 4 subject, but English is actually super useful, and removing the requirement will only harm people who don't chose English. There is no degree in any university that doesn't require proficiency in writing, and definitely none that don't require the critical thinking and comprehension skills taught in English. Even outside of attending university, there is not one person who, in their daily life, will not benefit in some manner by being eloquent and highly literate. There are way too many people going about their lives with zero comprehension skills, or who can barely piece an email together.
But that’s not what English teaches. There is no reason for us to spend 1 lesson on expository writing (arguably the most versatile and useful type of writing you learn in English) and then half the year analysing texts It doesn’t make any sense like when am I going to need to write a creative text when I don’t want to be an author of fiction. When am I going need to analyse a book or a movie when I’m planning on studying science after high school English is my hardest subject, it’s the subject that has caused me the most stress, it’s the only subject that has brought me to tears. It is a subject without use, without worth, without a reason to exist for the majority of people who take it English doesn’t teach you to write emails
That's annoying for you. Maybe they should create an English for life subject or something so you can just learn more practical English skills, that would be cool.
As somebody who’s very science oriented, I’d love to see a more stem related English subject that could focus on analysing how scientific reports, posters, and things like that are written. (Especially as the 600 word limit in vce sciences makes it really difficult to properly express my ideas whilst staying grammatically correct on my posters)
English teaches you English, which is a transferable skill. English does teach you how to write emails, because English teaches you English. You shouldn't need someone to sit you down and explain how to write every individual style of writing, but instead you should have enough competency in your own language, (or at least the language of your formal education) to transfer skills from one style to another. Text analysis is so important, even though the texts themselves might not be relevant, the skills taught are. The fundamental skill in a text analysis is being able to come to your own conclusions, based on evidence, and to defend them. That's super important, that's how good opinions are formed. You're very much missing something if you think a scientist won't need those skills. University science involves reading, and it also involves writing. You need to be able to read and analyze scientific studies, to write reports and essays, to understand real life implications of discoveries or concepts. These are all required in a bachelor's of science. Of course your English skills will specialise as you move into whatever scientific niche you chose, but a foundational level of English is necessary for those skills to even develop in the first place. English is a hard subject, I'm dyslexic myself, so I get it. But it's incredibly important, and although your struggles with it are totally legitimate, an appropriate level of English proficiency is necessary for anyone who wants to pursue tertiary study. I do have frustrations with VCE English, and the course is absolutely not perfect, but English itself is incredibly important.
Honestly the whole system needs to be overhauled. We should get rid of standardised testing and use a wide range of assessments that test skills such as creativity, problem solving, etc. Standardised testing causes a lot of unnecessary stress and overall does not provide students with the skills needed to tackle the real world. A wider range of assessments that test on an array of skills would give a far more accurate picture into someone's ability and potential while also giving them the skills to flourish.
Other ways to get into a bachelor degree other than an ATAR.
The other best way is doing a diploma and transition to 2nd year of a bachelors, if you can't get a bachelors immediately with your ATAR. You literally do not lose any time whatsoever and will graduate the same time as if you did a first years of bachelors
make handwriting optional for all work except test conditions / SACs
Handwriting stamina is such an important skill to develop, if you're going to be sitting SACS and exams on paper. Like someone who does everything on their laptop except tests will absolutely not write as much, or as well, as someone who writes on paper for everything.
if handwriting was optional i would still choose to do it for this reason, the point is that i would get to choose when i do it and what tasks i practice it with
for example, if it's my first draft for english and i'm only concerned with fleshing out my ideas and i know i am going to make a ton of edits, then it's going to be exponentially easier for me to type and this is what i would choose, whereas if i'm prepping for exams i would choose to handwrite
A few things. 1. Open book exams for all subjects. That is allowing a book of notes or a bound reference like in some maths exams. As someone who struggled with the pressure in exams despite doing the work but never really excelled. I firmly believe that if you do the work and make good notes then it is still a fair assessment. Those who take the piss or don’t do the work still will not excel. You need to make it practical so allowing someone to take in an entire essay to copy is not what I mean here but allowing a page of quotes and/or notes to prompt you. 2. Removal of exams all together in more practical subjects and have the subject based on assignments or practical tasks. In particular for design and IT subjects. 3. Removal of the competitiveness of ATAR or an overhaul of the system. While I get this is hard, students need to be reminded that your ATAR is your rank for one year, not the rest of your life. 4. Every school required to at least offer VET subjects and a 3rd party coming in to explain about additional options and pathways for completing high school.
1. How are you gonna regulate that? Are we really gonna have to do inspections of tens of thousands of reference papers? So much work goes into increasing the fairness of marks, through scaling and aggregates and ranking and so much more. You can't fairly pass/fail reference sheets based on their content, at least not in any way that I can think of. 2. VCAA-marked exams are essential for fairly ranking students. 3. Please see my other comment, VCE and ATAR is primarily a competitive ranked system, that is its purpose. 4. This sounds fair, but it's unrealistic to say that every school should provide x amount of vet subjects. what about regional schools who might not have specialised teachers for VET? are they to close down?
Literally what is the point in VCE if you can bring entire reference books in for all exams. Imagine if I just write every single scale down, along with every diminished chord and shit for music. Imagine if I had EVERY piece of data I needed for Geography. It is needed that you have taken in information to actually complete the subjects. This bound reference book idea you’ve mentioned literally will just be students copy and pasting mindlessly into the exam. Maybe a single sheet of paper is more likely? For the practical subjects not getting exams, or making them a practical exam is already kind of in place. Music performance has a music performance exam. What are woodwork students meant to do? Make a bench from scratch like the great British bake off? It’s unnecessary and those classes have theory anyways so why get rid of their exam? They showcase these skills through SACs and assessments throughout the year which already make up half of their overall mark. The removal of competitiveness in VCE is literally just removing VCE altogether. Yes it is stressful to be against all your classmates but it is there as a way to make studying more meaningful and allows students (who want to try) to try their best. Everyone knows it doesn’t define their future, we’ve seen all the talk online every single year when ATARs get released. It is spoken about in school to year 11s and 12s all the time, or at least in my school. I get your points are your opinion but god they would just not work.
So an open book exam for a non existent exam? Make up your mind