Charge More, due to the hours you have to commit to in order to capture blue/golden hours dusk/dawn times, hero. Self respect, self care over money. It’s okay to fire your clients. They value the cost of your work over the integrity of your work.
Don’t set yourself on fire to keep others warm.
Keep Doing Great Things!
The only thing wrong with this quote is it’s too low. Very low charge for post production. I understand if OP needs the job but this sort of squeezing is why I left the industry. Where is that $1000 suppose to come off from? The very reasonably priced production? Rental and expenses? The too low priced post?
OP I would ask the client these questions to some extent. Ask him where he would like to cut $1000 of labor. Also, charge more for post.
Agree with that post - it’s already at absolute low income (but ok if you need it for your reel). I would suggest you tell him to cut the sun rise- go there for 8 hours and call it a day. Tell him he can save 400€ with that
Interesting... I think all these low-effort Fiverr editors have warped my idea of how much post-production is worth 😅
I'm still transitioning from the "paid hobbyist" to the "professional freelancer" phase, so some of my prices and practices aren't quite ironed out yet.
Any thoughts on a proper post-production fee?
I wouldn’t go less than $100 for post. If you’re still somewhat new, start there.
I’d also up your pre production to $75 an hour, but also, consider a base flat rate ie $600 for all projects, up to 8 hours, and then $75 thereafter.
And I’d move your production rates to a day rate instead of hourly.
Side note, this client seems weird referring to your invoice as “demands”. Sorry you have to deal with this.
I have literally said to a client “I need to be paid in money, exposure can’t pay my rent.” And you know what, they listened.
And no, you’re not overcharging. If anything, you are not charging enough.
I would still work for less money if the job truly brings me exposure. But when a client tries to negotiate like this. O walk away.
If they change their mind and comes back to me. I would only start work with a 50% deposit and would not deliver the first cut of the video until full payment is made.
I only work around your types and help from time to time... even I can say with absolute certainty, because the same thing occurs in my completely unrelated field that this is a sign not to do any business with the person, because there's a high % chance they will screw you over, and you will walk out with less either accepting it, paying lawyers, or spending more energy collecting payment than the job itself.
OP needs to drop this job if they aren't ready for the headache... and let the customer know exactly why!
I agree… i got screwed over on a craiglist deal from a complete piece of shit stuck up person. He bought a bunch of machines from me as is, then sued me! Cost me $3000 in attorney fees. Lost money, i had a red flag I didnt listen to.
So just to let you know, any contract you have, needs to have that the client will pay your attorney fees! Huge lesson learned on my end. In America, we do not get attorney fees paid unless it is in a contract, or fraud.
Agree. Whenever a client mentions “exposure” and tries to use it as a currency for negotiation at this level. That’s a red flag and I would lose interest in working with them. As more trouble might be on the way.
When a work is worth the exposure, you will know and naturally quote them a price that’s worth your time.
I would politely drop this client, and let them know if they change their mind, I’ll still be available to serve them.
1/3 of money before filming, 1/3 after filming , 1/3 when video is completed (because you will do much more editing customer wants - charge it extra). Don’t agree with anything other than that. Watermarked video until you got the money
Yea also 2/3 1/3 is ok - on new customers I don’t trust get sure you have production costs in as soon as possible - and do the post production separately, sometimes Cashflow gets month after shooting. On bigger budget always go 1/3 2/3 3/3 method. If you pay your stuff and co worker and have to wait for cash income - think of your cash reserves (like times in corona - ppl were broke )
Likely a real estate agent... and if they get fired, the owner decides not to sell you don't get paid. Sounds like a shitty agent. If they are going to get a 3% comission on what sounds like a multi million dollar estate they should bea ble tyo come up with the money.
Yeah there’s a way to have that conversation that doesn’t involve the client saying “I will pay X total”. If they had said “I only have 5k how can we make it work” that’s a different story. But this opens the door to them TELLING you what you’re worth. “I don’t like how it turned out so I’m only paying you 4k.” “The house didn’t sell for asking so I’m paying you 2k” “another realtor is taking over this listing so I no longer have budget and he isn’t going to honor the agreement” etc
I agree with this 100%. He could’ve said it different and respectfully. I get that it’s all business at the end of the day, but we are also human at the end of the day. Don’t demand, just ask. “Hey “name” I seen your invoice and unfortunately my budget is 5k right now, is there anything we can do to work with that? I’m sorry for the misunderstanding”
Oh definitely! This email was actually the first time they named a budget, despite me asking more than once when we first began discussing this project.
The client seemed to imply that money would be no issue up until this point (and even bragged to me about paying a previous videographer over $7k for a smaller project) so I stupidly went along with it.
I'll try to salvage this by cutting out some of the production hours, but we'll see if they even want to play ball after this. I'm not even sure I want to anymore.
I don’t know your financial situation so I can’t say how hard it is to turn down $5K, but I’d run the other way. If he’s already making proclamations about how much he’s decided to pay you, only pay after the sale closes (months from now) and trying to strong arm you by saying he’s interviewing other cinematographers, those are just major red flags. Let this real estate bro take the video himself.
Depends on your level of experience and market but probably not. But the fact that you guys are months into development and are just getting to this is pretty troublesome. This should have been done before development.
I agree. I'll admit I'm not perfect about talking business, but I did ask the client directly what their budget was and it was dismissed as if money wasn't an issue.
I'm just now remembering that they also waffled on any kind of upfront deposit, which is a major red flag.
Maybe this client is better off left video-less? lol
Understandable. I learned the hard way on this and have a story similar to yours. Hopefully you guys can salvage the situation and you can get paid though.
I hope so as well. This was a referral from a family member, and I definitely came into this negotiation with more trust than was warranted.
I'd still love to walk away from this project with something fresh for my portfolio and a half-decent payout, but I'm definitely not going to be giving this client everything we discussed at that price point.
If you are comfortable with 5,000 then get it in writing, get a $2500 deposit before you do any more work. And you get paid when you deliver the final video, not when he makes the sale.
You‘re being asked to lower your price by $1000+ for a fixed set of service. For one, the way this person asks for it it is ridiculous, they totally overvalue the value of their $5000 in the open market. So that indicates someone that is potentially difficult to work with to me. That said, in essence they are asking you for a FAVOUR — a discount on your usual rate. IF you‘re willing to do the work at that rate because it still represents decent income for you, then you are now in the perfect position to ASK for something in return („if I can do this for you, what can you dof dor me?“) — so for example you could go along the lines of „The quoted rate is my standard rate for this type & amount of work and in my experience it represents good value-for money. That said I understand from your message that your budget for the production doesn‘t quite reach that far, which is fine. I can meet you at your asking price, if you agree to ___INSERT SOMETHING THAT‘S IMPORTANT TO YOU___ (eg „pay 50% upfront“ or „pay the invoice upon delivery of the videos“ etc). If they refuse or come back complaining about this you 100% should walk away, unless you don‘t value your work, time or mental health.
This is a really great way of handling this situation, love that last point. I'll add, though, that OP shouldn't lower price in order to get a 50% deposit or to have the client pay the invoice upon delivery of the videos since those are both standard practices in freelancing. OP should ask for something else that will take up the client's time and/or resources in order for the client to understand that the $1000 taken off from the invoice quote is something of value that he actually has to compensate for and that he's not just getting a deal for an easy decision like agreeing to some terms in a contract.
I've been doing real estate media work for many years, and I've worked in the Seattle luxury market. While your quote is definitely within a normal range for videography and cinema work, the real estate media world is a different animal, and it really depends on the listing, the agency etc. but you're definitely on the high side if you don't have the real estate edits in your portfolio to justify the price - the day-to-twilight shake edits etc that are all the rage right now.
It sucks, but they could certainly replace you and get very high-quality work for probably half of what you're charging from people who do real estate media all day every day. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, that's just what the market will bear. There are guys in Florida who do similar work but are charging $10k or more for similar video work.
Sounds to me like this listing agent is way out of their league listing a property at a price point that they probably don't have experience with. and finally, it's definitely not normal for them to not be paying you until they close a sale, because it could take them months or even years depending on the price point. Payment in full upon delivery.
Absolutley this! Real Estate Media companies do these types of shoots all the time and most under-charge for the amount of time and effort they provide. Personally I know many are tired of the EDM rollercoaster style edits but they are still being slapped together like a 12 year old that just discovered premiere pro. [https://studio910pb.com/](https://studio910pb.com/) and [https://arturoandlauren.com/](https://arturoandlauren.com/) are good examples of how the higher end listings are being done here in the US for anyone that has never done real estate stuff.
Yeah, I know the types of videos you're talking about. This client is looking for a 5-10 minute documentary about the house itself, with an interview with the homeowner who designed and built it himself. Seems like a cool concept - if it ends up happening lol
Gotcha. Yeah that does seem pretty cool if it does come about.
I think maybe the ones I'm talking about have the industry term "walk around" or "flow throughs" or something?
Good luck OP! It's great that you have received solid advise from other professionals here, and I appreciate you sharing your experiences. I'm trying to learn the ropes on freelance work myself, and am gaining a lot of insight from this post!
Just out of curiosity: Would it ever be considered to build in a percentage of the final purchase price when the home is sold as a part of payment? I could see this being potentially mutually beneficial for both new agents and videographers, only after retainers and gear costs have been accounted for.
Also I'm interested to know the clientele that utilizes videos like these. At last in my area (Washington DC Metro) houses sell within days of listing, some with very little pictures listed. Maybe when it gets to upper-tier mansions these are necessary? Or is it more about creating videos for the agent saying "look at the houses I have access to and can sell for you"?
Sometimes if its a commercial property that is being listed the agreement is the media will cost a certain percentage of the final selling price. Like 1%. Also the purpose of these high production videos are not to sell the house but to sell the listing agents brand. Also rich-people clout when they want bragging rights if one of these videos goes viral.
In most places in the U.S. it is actually illegal for anybody but the agent to make any commission off of a sale, including the media provider. That doesn't mean you couldn't say charge them a percentage of the asking price but you definitely cannot structure it as an actual commission based on the actual negotiated sale price.
And the value of videos like these is not necessarily to sell the home, it's for an agent to take their next listing appointment to win more business from homeowners who are thinking about selling. They sit down at their listing presentation and go, "this is what I will do to help get you the most money for *your* home."
You can make a killing during real estate media selling packages of photo video and virtual tours, but you definitely do not make a killing on individual videos. They are not worth a whole bunch of preproduction or spending half a day on site. You get in, shoot in 30-45 minutes, come back for twilight if it's a luxury prop, and bang out an edit in 90 minutes with a self-made template. I know lots of guys that are pulling in $150k+ doing real estate media because they do several shoots a day and outsource a lot of their editing.
Yeah! It's an interesting niche to be sure. It takes a while to break into but I enjoy it and make a good living. It's kind of hard to dabble in it though because you really need to have specialty outsourced editors, 360° cameras and hosting services etc
I learned this sale trick from a coworker:
Talk money in the first meeting. Do a rough draft of what they are asking, make a quick calculations and give them a ballpark figure. Explain that you'll do the actual math when you go over the details, but this helps both to decise if it is an avenue worth pursuing.
It feels wrong when you're not very experienced, especially when selling ourselves, it often feels like we are not worth asking for what amounts to a lot of money, but as seen from your invoice, what theyre asking for takea a lot of time.
We often feel like doing business is about building relationships and being friendly first, and that we have to pretend that the money is just an after thought because we love working with people and we're not greedy. But it leads to endless meetings and coffees and calls only for the sunk cost fallacy to take hold and making you feel like you can't lose this sale since you've already invested so much.
Instead, be upfront about what your time is worth. If they are not interested after a reasonable indication of the expected cost, this deal is not worth pursuing.
While it is easy to nitpick from the sidelines, he wasn't acting like a professional at the beginning. They didn't discuss price, sign a contract and he did not get a deposit before starting. I think OP is in the right here, but he can learn from his early mistakes.
It’s tempting, of course because $5k or $6k isn’t a small amount of income regardless. However this just seems like the type of client who won’t be happy with the outcome and will pick apart everything, resulting in more work and putting up a fight to pay until it’s their version of perfect.
IMO, it would be worth a final email explaining your normal process (deposit before any work begins), process of production, 2 rounds of revisions, and payment once agreed upon video is produced and that’s that. If they scoff at that, let them go. For your own sanity.
I’d walk. Partly because they’re offering you less, partly because they mistakenly think that working for them will bring you more work and hence they deserve a discount.
But mostly because they don’t want to pay anything until AFTER the house sells. Lowering the fee is one thing, but they need to give you a down payment before the shoot to cover your fees for an assistant as well as travel, rentals, and ferry. It’s completely unrealistic for them to think you’ll work for free and just wait around for a check when/if the house sells. Get a deposit, do the work, get paid, deliver the final. That’s the proper order.
"well, we didn't get the sale price we wanted, so paying your fee didn't seem appropriate after all the exposure we've already given you. good luck with everything!"
Exactly!
If the house sells and how fast it sells is nothing the filmmaker can influence. If they market it badly or price is just too high you'll never get paid.
I mean, you’re not even charging for equipment. If anything this quote is low, but agreed with u/dalecookie that the budget should have been dealt with ages ago.
Agreed, the only reason you should be sending this breakdown so late is if they are changing the scope and requesting an update. But then nothing should be coming as a crazy surprise either.
I also can’t figure out the rates either. W/o gear, that’s 1500/10 which is like Union DP rates (not saying too much, since that’s just a minimum, but just for reference). But if you’re getting that, you definitely DON’T need exposure lol. But if it DOES include your standard kit, that seems on the low end too (although totally depends on what your kit includes, especially with the 2nd videographer making half of that w/ addition kit too). If that’s what you’re doing, my personal opinion: don’t ever bundle labor and kit either. It creates confusion since it looks like you are getting WAY more and there is no justification as to why. People understand if a $50k camera costs 250/day to rent. They don’t understand YOU making 250/day more if another camera gets used by someone else
Do you usually itemize equipment. Are you specific are you? Would you simply list Drone, 2 cameras, gimbal, lighting---maybe based on a package where you have basic, medium, and extreme....or something?
I guess I need to see more invoices to see what everyones doing.
Partly depends on the job, but I usually just break it down to base kits. For example, Drone Kit @ $$$/Day. This includes the drone, remote, sds, filters, batteries, etc (basically anything I would always bring if I was simply asked to bring a drone). But if I’m asked for something extra, that gets a separate line to represent the added cost. This is partly for transparency, partly to track add-ons since the company can change their mind. If they just see one large number, they may completely back out (like OPs scenario), when it’s possible the “last straw” was a $50 add-on that they don’t see in the line items.
For example, if I need a backup drone bc we are in a remote location and wouldn’t be able to source one in the event of a crash, the backup is an added line (I usually charge half rate or something like that since it’s not supposed to get used).
Where it “depends on the job” is two factor. If I’m the operator, I don’t mind being less detailed since I will know what is supposed to be there and what was working properly. If I’m renting to a whole crew (for example 3 cameras and I’m not the only operator), I’ll get more detailed (# of cables, # of cards, etc) so I can properly inventory everything at the end of the job, whether that’s for me to reimburse or a production company L&D is also job dependent.
If it’s a production company, I’m even MORE detailed, down to serial numbers bc they need that info for their insurance.
The level of detail is partly personal preference, partly job necessity. But that’s even MORE reason NOT to lump it into your personal rate on a budget line.
Oh yes, I totally list all equipment with rates. If it's a camera, it's also lenses, batteries w/charger, filters, tripod, cards, card reader, laptop for data transfer- everything is listed. They have to realize what all is involved.
I’d expect double this invoice rate with equipment and insurance. Create a peer group to review your quotes and you’ll be surprised how much higher you should be charging.
Not knowing anything about your position, the client, etc., personally I'd say you're about 4k shy. Location shoot, 2nd shooter +gear, shoot day length (if they're having you do sunrise shots that could lead to an overtime shoot day) etc. Also, I didn't see a revision limit in your post hours which could lead a client like this to endless nitpicking. So, no, you're not overcharging, they're trying to get you on the cheap. In my humble opinion.
Well said. This is a huge consideration as well OP. These are also probably the clients that will come back with "Oh we actually found someone to do it for $3500. Can you match that?" To which my answer is usually: "Wow, that sounds like a deal! You should go with them. Also, can I get their contact info? I'd like to hire them for some other work."
No. If anything, I believe you are charging too little. You set the prices - the client does not get to dictate the price, the payment terms nor your method of production. Serious, professional clients do not attempt to negotiate production services. I would consider this a major red flag and a client that you will most likely have to chase down for payment and possible small claims court to recover. If you do proceed with this client, I would insist on full payment upfront.
This realtor is going to make 10-15% on a property worth in excess of, mostly likely, $1 million. This means they stand to make a minimum of 100k. In order to secure that sale, you asking 6k is extremely generous for the amount of work and time you are having to spend. This client has no problems charging what they are charging for their services but has a problem with another businessperson charging a fair fee for theirs.
If it were us, we would be saying “Our corporate policy requires full payment for shoots to secure a booking. We have a long-standing history with a diverse range of clients. We will unfortunately not be able to proceed without full payment of $X.XXX”
I would stand your ground with this one and let this client go if they don’t budge. They will save you many sleepless nights later.
FWIW.
I see where you're going with this, but I've never heard of a realtor getting 10-15% except for like a convenience store without property at 80-100k.
Curious to know if this is actually a thing somewhere else in the world cuz it sounds juicy
It is and most certainly can be remarkably juicy. Also, where I am, it’s often 5-8%. But that’s beside the point - it could be 1%, 100% or they could be making their commission in macaroni or vintage POGs. Any way you slice it…the quote is way too low and the “client” is a red flag pasta.
I’m sooooooo over clients mentioning “exposure”. Unless you’re providing me a Super Bowl ad spot or linking me with 3 other paying clients after I’m done working with you, your “exposure” has just as much worth to me as a stale piece of dog poop.
An invoice is usually what you send when you are asking for money based off of previously agreed fees or pay structure outlined in a proposal or contract document. Do you mean you sent a proposal with these fees, or did he already agree to the fees and you've now invoiced him? If he already agreed, then he needs to pay.
If this is just you guys negotiating, then figure out a way to make it worth both your while (if he needs it cheaper, scale down the project so you don't have to use the other video guy or it takes less time). If you can't figure it out, then it's no deal.
You're right, I used the wrong term in my distracted posting! The top of this sheet said "estimate", and it's the first time the client saw anything price-related. I'll 1000% get a contract signed with them before moving forward, if we ever get to that point.
I was mostly worried about being way off base with my estimate, but there are lots of other issues with this client that I can learn from.
Thanks for the advice!
Honestly the second “exposure” is mentioned I say “thank you but no” and won’t do the job. I get that people need to eat and pay bills but saying “exposure” just means it will be problem after problem
I’ll never let the client dictate how I run my business.
If I’m buying from their business, you think they’d let me come in and modify their prices, terms & business processes?
No. They’d tell me to fuck off, or follow their process.
Stay well away from this. But do it with manners.
If this was me replying I would say:
Thanks for the reply,
I'm sorry the quote doesn't agree with you.
Would you like my help finding you another video Grapher who may find your conditions acceptable?
Look forward to hearing from you
Signed
You
👋 realtor here. Worst part of my job… working with other realtors.
If he is selling that kind of high end luxury and can’t afford to pay you out of his pocket, he is not confident with his skills.
Know your value and stand firm. The reality is if you discount them this job, they will either want it again, or go somewhere else because they don’t want to haggle.
If it’s worth the money to you and you don’t have anything else lined up, take it, if you can find other work in place of it let it go.
They likely will get in inferior product from another photographer/videographer or not be able to match your bid.
I personally never hire the cheap guy unless I know there worth it, or there is a reason we have to lowball.
Prior to being a realtor I was a home inspector. 50% of the time they asked for pay at close they never kept me up to date when closing was and I had to track them down. Several of those times they never gave the invoice to the title company so they had to pay me out of their pocket after closing after I threatened to contact their broker and report them to the realtor association.
I understand a roof being pay at close, but videography… realtor needs to pony up. He’s putting all the risk on you. You can always make him sign a contract requiring him to pay out of pocket after a certain date, but then you gotta keep up with it and be ready to take them to court if necessary.
If you didn't sign a contract, you can try to negotiate if you don't want to take a haircut. If you did sign a contract, they are responsible for paying up based on those terms.
Personally, 2 people + gear + transpo + pre and post for a multi-day location shoot for a luxury real estate property? $6K is chump change. When I was in-house at a luxury sports car manufacturer, we hired a 4(?)-man production team (1 photo, 2 video, 1 drone) for a two-day event and we paid something like $20,000 for that (granted, there were some rentals we paid for and stuff, but even without those it would've been upwards of $15K).
Taking a $1,000 hit sucks, but if you don't have a contract, it may be better to just cut your losses and take it as a lesson, especially if there's potential for repeat business (iffy, but not impossible).
Not a snowballs chance in hell that I would ever allow someone to work with me after they send me an email like that. Disrespectful, rude, controlling, petulant.
If you do want to move forward, I would do this:
Remove items from your invoice to meet their $5k, and then absolutely do not shoot a damn second of footage until you’re paid in full, if they need to reschedule until they pay then do that. I’ve never been paid AFTER project completion with the exception of clients I’ve had for 5+ years for ongoing work.
To imagine they intend to pay you the full $5k when they sell is hopeful at best, and if they did they would reduce the amount and put off and delay payment based on pretty much any excuse they can think of. In zero other industries do companies pay their marketing agencies on a TBD basis only after they have enough money from clients.
Fuck this guy, hard! Waaaaaaay too many red flags. I'd add a "being a fucking idiot surcharge" to the quote and send it back to him with another 0 on the end 🤣
And then there is me who I make my clients pay in full days before shooting or at least on the same day of the first shoot (I do social media packages) why are people so afraid of asking for payment?
I wouldnt work with anyone that questions my rates and thinks they can tell me how much i should charge.
I dont get paid when the sales close, I get paid before i leave the house or i aint shooting shit.
No this is a fair value invoice for what the client requested. Most real estate clients suck. Just the mention of “exposure” and his insistance that they won’t pay until the sale closes should make you run the other direction. Get ready for weeks of the most nitpicky edit requests.
Don’t walk, Run. Also, this is a great rate with consideration to artistic ability and your delivered quality, any cheaper and you’ll go broke.
These red flags will manifest into bounced checks, litigation, and craziness. Know what your sanity is worth and the value you provide.
Run, don't walk, away from this. This client is obviously a nightmare. They will be a nightmare to work with. They are rude and demanding, and they seem to think very little of you as a business and a person.
I promise that if you do this project, you'll regret it.
No. You wildly are not overcharging at all. You're fine.
There are a lot of red flags in their response.
A client doesn't tell you what they will pay. They can tell you their budget and ask what can be done within their budget.
Exposure or the promise for future work is a giant nope. That mostly means they are low balling you or they don't understand the costs that are involved in video production.
Cut ties. Focus on other clients or self marketing.
WALK.
1. It costs what it costs. They don't get to dictate what they're paying you unless they're asking you to reduce your hours to meet their budget.
2. You should not be getting paid when the house sells, you should be getting paid when you've done your part.
3. Fuck "exposure"
RUN AWAY! This guy’s tone is disgusting, and disrespectful. “I will pay $5,000 total…” Wtf? Imagine going to a grocery store to buy chicken, and you telling the cashier what you’ll pay for it. Fuck outta here.
No, client has all the classic hallmarks of a pain in the ass. You just saved yourself 64 hours of work and whole lot of heartache trying to get paid for it.
The fact that they're telling you they won't pay you until they don't need you anymore is suspect. You shouldn't do any work at all without at least 50% up front.
Any time "exposure" is mentioned as an alternative to actual payment, you should walk. Whomever would be hiring your services certainly isn't working for clicks, or likes, or any other form of fake influencer cash, they're working for money, actual, tangible, pay-your-bills-with-it money.
Hard to say if you're over charging because it depends lots on the market you're in.
I would definitely drop any client that talks about exposure or only paying when the home sells. That's absurd.
I think your only mistake is not mailing down a budget a long time ago, and also sending a detailed list like this.
No one really gives a shit how many hours you work. In fact trying to justify your price by your hours gives more of an employee vibe.
Focus on deliverables and results. Your job is to solve this guy's marketing problems. It's irrelevant to him whether that will take you 4 hours or 40 hours.
You didn't convince him of the value of your solution to his problem, you tried to convince him because of how much time it was going to cost YOU.
But ultimately I wouldn't work with this person anyway.
This is gonna sting cause obviously you want the money but this guy is shady as hell. He’s been setting you up to low ball you and trying to use his big boy realtor negotiation tactics he learned from some wanna be Drill Sargent “online coach” who says you have to have a six pack to work for him.
You don’t care when his sale closes, your work is done and must be paid 30 days or whatever you do personally. Exposure in a real estate video is not a thing. You’re being completely reasonable, he sucks.
Fuck your exposure. How's that going to feed my family? And what the fuck kind of exposure am I going to get out of a real estate video? Are they selling this house to Spielberg? Damn, that response pisses me off. This is the worst kind of customer. They will never appreciate my value. Meanwhile, they're standing by for a six-figure commission.
Tell him you wish him the best of luck. He’ll go for the lowest bidder and be unhappy with the quality. Then he’ll either disappear with his tail between his legs, or, man up and admit he was wrong, and pay your rate on the next shoot. Stick to your guns, your rate is fine for the job.
Your pricing is extremely reasonable and this guy sets off all sorts of red flags.
Do not take this unless he is paying you the full $6005 and paying it up-front, not "at close".
$1000 is chump change on real estate deals. If he's going to raise a fuss over that he is probably a perpetual haggler who will pick arguments or refute charges over and over again until you're run so ragged dealing with them that you're settling on scraps. Let him be someone else's problem.
everyone has given you good advice. walk away. red flags. etc...
some slimy people will do this - try to push the final agreement on rates as far as possible, so that they can strong-arm you knowing that you can't possibly book another gig on such short notice. pushing this off for months is extremely scummy, and while i could say "hey, you should've nipped that in the bud", i'm guessing you know that lesson very saliently now.
i will add this, which i haven't seen people say (but maybe it's down the page a bit):
there is a chance that, when you tell the client you're walking away from the job, they might capitulate. it's imperative that you **do not accept their business**. at least not for this invoice.
these people rationalize that if what they did was wrong, then they would have gotten punished.
if they can be a deranged asshole to you and then relent and agree to pay your $6k invoice with no other consequence except paying the rate that they were supposed to pay in the first place, then they effectively paid no price whatsoever for this transgressive behavior.
that's not just terrible for you - it's terrible for the entire profession. it's important for all the professionals in your area that nobody normalizes tolerating this.
if the client comes scrambling back to get your business a week from now, then you should send them an invoice with a *steep* surcharge for the last-minute nature of the job, and demand a substantial fraction (eg 1/2) of the invoice to be paid before the first day of shooting.
that being said, hopefully you never hear from this person again. how often do you start a professional relationship with someone on this kind of footing and get to the end of the gig and think "wow, that worked out quite smoothly"? my experience is "never". these people are full of drama and trouble from tip to tail.
I primarily do luxury real estate videos. Getting paid when the agent closes the sale would never happen. If I did agree to that, I’d want half of the agent’s commission. After all, I’m taking on risk at that point.
The demeanor of this client is not good. Sounds like a nightmare, ego maniac client.
They phrase that like it's a hostile negotiation lol. Politely tell them you are unable to offer the project as is at their target price. If you want you can see if there's an item you can knock off the list to bring the price down. Like say if you don't have to spend the night.
Fuck em tho
$6k is a screaming deal on what you described. Editing should be at least $1500. Baller move is to write a new quote/estimate with all of the suggestions in the comments (equipment, revisions, 'difficult client fee', etc). Reply to the client with "i apologize for the error in my previous quote. Thank you for your patience and allowing me to correct it." Attach the new quote of $10k-$12k.
Disclaimer: this is the petty route. I can take it because it's not my business or reputation. You probably shouldn't.
You're usually better off charging a little bit more and then making them feel better by taking off a little bit. It's a game but there's so many that love to play it.
Here's my rule of thumb for rates; most people set their own rates competitively to incur favor, but you should price a project as if you had to outsource everything. Can you find an editor that would do what you wanted for 50/hr, preproduction for 40/hr? Because that's the only way you can price your business with growth and subcontractors built in. If you're shooting for 150/hr, price the rest of your time appropriately. Make sure that rate is separate from the kit fee. Charge for OT.
The fact the client was hesitant and avoidant discussing money is a big red flag. If you do decide to take this gig I would advise getting them to pay half up front to make sure they don’t stiff you or renegotiate price after the piece is shot. I don’t think you are overcharging at all. In fact I’m going to screenshot this for reference.
Not much to add and you’re getting good advice from this sub.
So many red flags that if you’re in a financial position to walk away may want to consider doing so.
1) Do you have a contract (I assume not since there’s no price agreement but have to ask as that changes advice)
2) Does this client have a history of working with videographers or working in real estate? Sometime the background helps to know if they’re slimy or just ignorant of the market/hiring process.
3) Do you have number of revisions and response timelines built in to the contract? My videographer spidey sense is off the charts this client will be a pain in post and use any excuse not to pay.
Can’t help myself and gotta echo the not being paid until the house closes. Get the upfront and then final on delivery. Document everything if you have to go to small claims. Any time you have to actively plan around small claims is a sign a client isn’t worth it but again, I totally get personal financial needs and the portfolio addition.
Good luck!
Exposure? Nah, the only way I’d give anyone a discount is if they refer 3 of their friends that *actually* buy full price from me beforehand. Then maybe we can discuss a discount.
Your prices are very reasonable. I’d be charging $80/hour for pre and post.
Client seems like a douche to haggle you down $1000 when you’ve basically laid out terms for the bare minimum here.
You didn't shoot yet? Like, you've done a lot of talking, and not shot or edited a frame of video yet?
Cut a thousand bucks worth of stuff from the quote and do the gig for $5k. Take the money and run. PS, I get paid when I deliver the video, not when the house sells.
Hell I would have never sent an itemized invoice. Here’s my price, take it or leave it. Itemized invoices just give people stuff to nitpick. I’d would have gave them a price, wrote down what was part of the contract, ie. Length, amount of edits, ect… and that would have been it.
This doesn’t sound like the kind of project you’ll get any actual exposure from.
No one cares who shot a real estate video filled with talking heads.
Stick with your quote.
"Yeah no problem I will remove the charges for pre production and post production which will get you to your budget of $5,000. I will however warn you this means I will be showing up unprepared and will only be able to provide you will unedited footage after the shoot. It really is a shame you can not afford to get those services as I would consider them vital to the success of any project."
"Unfortunately those terms won't be within my ability, the price is already my discounted rate, and I would not be able to confirm the contract without a 50% non refundable deposit. I was looking forward to this project so I'm sorry it didn't work out for me to help you with it, I'm sure we will find something to work on together in future."
I mean is it worth losing $5k over $1k? It sucks you're just finding this out. Pre pro and lighting (granted its your kit) could easily be eaten. If you think this is a client a lot of work could come from say you'll cut them a deal on this first one. If there have already been tons of read flags maybe this is the straw that breaks the camels back and walk away.
Paid upon escrow, lol. What a douche move assuming this wasn’t already discussed. I’d walk away on principle alone. Or tell them it’s $3k down, plus $5k upon escrow if I’m being bought as if I were a pair of Reebok’s on Kmart layaway plan.
Seems pretty low to me.
Still working on my site but here's a sample invoice page if you kind of want to get a rough idea of what companies will pay....this is not the real site name, it's a url I'm just building the site on.
I actually don't know what the rates the agency charged these clients but this is what I would have charged if the clients came directly to me.
[Estimate Examples Page – PhotonMover](https://photonmover.com/Staging01/estimate-examples-page/)
I’d walk away from this one honestly, like others have said, too many red flags from the client. They’ll probably be unhappy regardless and leave a scathing 0/5 review.
The only questions I have is why do you need to spend the night at the house instead of getting there in the morning before dawn to setup? Are you charging them for the overnight stay?
Bail. This is a shit shoot.
Next time, have an estimate and a 50% deposit paid for. Money should (excuse the caps, but I mean it) ALWAYS BE IN THE DISCOVERY DISCUSSIONS.
Anytime a client mentions “exposure”, that’s a huge red flag. There’s nothing wrong with your quote.
Yea fuck him. Everyone wants to low ball.
Charge More, due to the hours you have to commit to in order to capture blue/golden hours dusk/dawn times, hero. Self respect, self care over money. It’s okay to fire your clients. They value the cost of your work over the integrity of your work. Don’t set yourself on fire to keep others warm. Keep Doing Great Things!
Agreed, frizzle anyone who throws out the "exposure" bollocks to avoid paying you what you're worth. Edit: language :)
The only thing wrong with this quote is it’s too low. Very low charge for post production. I understand if OP needs the job but this sort of squeezing is why I left the industry. Where is that $1000 suppose to come off from? The very reasonably priced production? Rental and expenses? The too low priced post? OP I would ask the client these questions to some extent. Ask him where he would like to cut $1000 of labor. Also, charge more for post.
Agree with that post - it’s already at absolute low income (but ok if you need it for your reel). I would suggest you tell him to cut the sun rise- go there for 8 hours and call it a day. Tell him he can save 400€ with that
I totally agree
Interesting... I think all these low-effort Fiverr editors have warped my idea of how much post-production is worth 😅 I'm still transitioning from the "paid hobbyist" to the "professional freelancer" phase, so some of my prices and practices aren't quite ironed out yet. Any thoughts on a proper post-production fee?
I wouldn’t go less than $100 for post. If you’re still somewhat new, start there. I’d also up your pre production to $75 an hour, but also, consider a base flat rate ie $600 for all projects, up to 8 hours, and then $75 thereafter. And I’d move your production rates to a day rate instead of hourly. Side note, this client seems weird referring to your invoice as “demands”. Sorry you have to deal with this.
Yep, another "Exposure" = Fuck You.
I agree with this
yea if i hear that word, i turn the other direction and never look back
I have literally said to a client “I need to be paid in money, exposure can’t pay my rent.” And you know what, they listened. And no, you’re not overcharging. If anything, you are not charging enough.
That word immediately stood out to me too. Why do people still think this is effective leverage in 2024??
I would still work for less money if the job truly brings me exposure. But when a client tries to negotiate like this. O walk away. If they change their mind and comes back to me. I would only start work with a 50% deposit and would not deliver the first cut of the video until full payment is made.
I only work around your types and help from time to time... even I can say with absolute certainty, because the same thing occurs in my completely unrelated field that this is a sign not to do any business with the person, because there's a high % chance they will screw you over, and you will walk out with less either accepting it, paying lawyers, or spending more energy collecting payment than the job itself. OP needs to drop this job if they aren't ready for the headache... and let the customer know exactly why!
I agree… i got screwed over on a craiglist deal from a complete piece of shit stuck up person. He bought a bunch of machines from me as is, then sued me! Cost me $3000 in attorney fees. Lost money, i had a red flag I didnt listen to. So just to let you know, any contract you have, needs to have that the client will pay your attorney fees! Huge lesson learned on my end. In America, we do not get attorney fees paid unless it is in a contract, or fraud.
Any time a client mentions "exposure" the price goes up 25%.
Let me pay mi bills with exposure
I can’t put exposure on my sandwich.
6400 ISO DEPOSITED TO YOUR DSLR
But we have so many upcoming opportunities- this is going to be big!
That passive-aggressive tone is another red flag. Not a way a professional would negotiate.
"Fuck you, pay me"
Hell yeah, one of my buddies actually has FYPM tattooed on his arm. Such truth.
Mike Monteiro for the win!
More red flags than a Chinese military parade. OP needs to double his rates, set out clear payment terms and stay away from these types of gigs.
HUGE red flag. "Exposure" doesn't pay the bills. Screw that guy.
What do you mean? Exposure is great! Think of all the other clients you can reach who'll pay you with even more exposure!
What? Your grocery store or landlord doesn’t accept “exposure bucks?”
Agree. Whenever a client mentions “exposure” and tries to use it as a currency for negotiation at this level. That’s a red flag and I would lose interest in working with them. As more trouble might be on the way. When a work is worth the exposure, you will know and naturally quote them a price that’s worth your time. I would politely drop this client, and let them know if they change their mind, I’ll still be available to serve them.
What, you don't get paid until the sale closes? I'd stay away from that. There are lots of red flags here.
Then they don’t get a video without a huge watermark until the sale closes! 😂
Na. Without 50% up front they ain’t getting shit to begin with
This is the way
Yeah it would cost them nothing to just bail on you. Half up front or milestones.
At 480p
480p with huge watermarks and maybe even in b/w with random pixelated effects key framed
240p
Gif?
120i. :-)
How bout I draw you a sketch of what you will get once you pay me
What’s your car got to do with anything?
pp
With inverted colours
Woah, that's what that line means? Run from this client (and maybe send a bill for services already rendered).
Yeah that’s the part that really sent a chill up my spine, when and if you will get paid. Yikes.
1/3 of money before filming, 1/3 after filming , 1/3 when video is completed (because you will do much more editing customer wants - charge it extra). Don’t agree with anything other than that. Watermarked video until you got the money
This is a good idea! I've only heard of the 50/50 split before, but this method makes more sense in my head
Yea also 2/3 1/3 is ok - on new customers I don’t trust get sure you have production costs in as soon as possible - and do the post production separately, sometimes Cashflow gets month after shooting. On bigger budget always go 1/3 2/3 3/3 method. If you pay your stuff and co worker and have to wait for cash income - think of your cash reserves (like times in corona - ppl were broke )
Likely a real estate agent... and if they get fired, the owner decides not to sell you don't get paid. Sounds like a shitty agent. If they are going to get a 3% comission on what sounds like a multi million dollar estate they should bea ble tyo come up with the money.
They will try to negotiate it to 4000 after nit-picking every tiny thing.
What if it never sells with this broker/agency?
When a client tells YOU when and how much THEY will pay you…. It’s time to walk away. So many red flags.
I don’t mind when a client tells me their budget, but their budget will dictate what they get.
Yeah there’s a way to have that conversation that doesn’t involve the client saying “I will pay X total”. If they had said “I only have 5k how can we make it work” that’s a different story. But this opens the door to them TELLING you what you’re worth. “I don’t like how it turned out so I’m only paying you 4k.” “The house didn’t sell for asking so I’m paying you 2k” “another realtor is taking over this listing so I no longer have budget and he isn’t going to honor the agreement” etc
Yeah unilaterally deciding to pay less than agreed to is bullshit
I agree with this 100%. He could’ve said it different and respectfully. I get that it’s all business at the end of the day, but we are also human at the end of the day. Don’t demand, just ask. “Hey “name” I seen your invoice and unfortunately my budget is 5k right now, is there anything we can do to work with that? I’m sorry for the misunderstanding”
This. Totally agree.
Oh definitely! This email was actually the first time they named a budget, despite me asking more than once when we first began discussing this project. The client seemed to imply that money would be no issue up until this point (and even bragged to me about paying a previous videographer over $7k for a smaller project) so I stupidly went along with it. I'll try to salvage this by cutting out some of the production hours, but we'll see if they even want to play ball after this. I'm not even sure I want to anymore.
I don’t know your financial situation so I can’t say how hard it is to turn down $5K, but I’d run the other way. If he’s already making proclamations about how much he’s decided to pay you, only pay after the sale closes (months from now) and trying to strong arm you by saying he’s interviewing other cinematographers, those are just major red flags. Let this real estate bro take the video himself.
Do nothing until you have half up front. This guy is gonna string you along for everything he can get out of you.
> I don’t mind when a client tells me their budget, but their budget will dictate what they get. Totally, but worded like they did feels disrespectful
Depends on your level of experience and market but probably not. But the fact that you guys are months into development and are just getting to this is pretty troublesome. This should have been done before development.
I agree. I'll admit I'm not perfect about talking business, but I did ask the client directly what their budget was and it was dismissed as if money wasn't an issue. I'm just now remembering that they also waffled on any kind of upfront deposit, which is a major red flag. Maybe this client is better off left video-less? lol
I’d even say 75% deposit, because they sound like they could stiff you of the remainder. I often use the reason of ‘first time clients’.
Understandable. I learned the hard way on this and have a story similar to yours. Hopefully you guys can salvage the situation and you can get paid though.
I hope so as well. This was a referral from a family member, and I definitely came into this negotiation with more trust than was warranted. I'd still love to walk away from this project with something fresh for my portfolio and a half-decent payout, but I'm definitely not going to be giving this client everything we discussed at that price point.
If you are comfortable with 5,000 then get it in writing, get a $2500 deposit before you do any more work. And you get paid when you deliver the final video, not when he makes the sale.
And the final payment unlocks the video WITHOUT watermark.
You‘re being asked to lower your price by $1000+ for a fixed set of service. For one, the way this person asks for it it is ridiculous, they totally overvalue the value of their $5000 in the open market. So that indicates someone that is potentially difficult to work with to me. That said, in essence they are asking you for a FAVOUR — a discount on your usual rate. IF you‘re willing to do the work at that rate because it still represents decent income for you, then you are now in the perfect position to ASK for something in return („if I can do this for you, what can you dof dor me?“) — so for example you could go along the lines of „The quoted rate is my standard rate for this type & amount of work and in my experience it represents good value-for money. That said I understand from your message that your budget for the production doesn‘t quite reach that far, which is fine. I can meet you at your asking price, if you agree to ___INSERT SOMETHING THAT‘S IMPORTANT TO YOU___ (eg „pay 50% upfront“ or „pay the invoice upon delivery of the videos“ etc). If they refuse or come back complaining about this you 100% should walk away, unless you don‘t value your work, time or mental health.
This is a really great way of handling this situation, love that last point. I'll add, though, that OP shouldn't lower price in order to get a 50% deposit or to have the client pay the invoice upon delivery of the videos since those are both standard practices in freelancing. OP should ask for something else that will take up the client's time and/or resources in order for the client to understand that the $1000 taken off from the invoice quote is something of value that he actually has to compensate for and that he's not just getting a deal for an easy decision like agreeing to some terms in a contract.
Good tips, thank you! I'm going to keep these in mind if I can get this flaky client on the phone again to talk options
Yea I feel like the move is to scale down the promised scope of work to accommodate the lower fee and clearly signal you’re doing so
I've been doing real estate media work for many years, and I've worked in the Seattle luxury market. While your quote is definitely within a normal range for videography and cinema work, the real estate media world is a different animal, and it really depends on the listing, the agency etc. but you're definitely on the high side if you don't have the real estate edits in your portfolio to justify the price - the day-to-twilight shake edits etc that are all the rage right now. It sucks, but they could certainly replace you and get very high-quality work for probably half of what you're charging from people who do real estate media all day every day. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, that's just what the market will bear. There are guys in Florida who do similar work but are charging $10k or more for similar video work. Sounds to me like this listing agent is way out of their league listing a property at a price point that they probably don't have experience with. and finally, it's definitely not normal for them to not be paying you until they close a sale, because it could take them months or even years depending on the price point. Payment in full upon delivery.
Absolutley this! Real Estate Media companies do these types of shoots all the time and most under-charge for the amount of time and effort they provide. Personally I know many are tired of the EDM rollercoaster style edits but they are still being slapped together like a 12 year old that just discovered premiere pro. [https://studio910pb.com/](https://studio910pb.com/) and [https://arturoandlauren.com/](https://arturoandlauren.com/) are good examples of how the higher end listings are being done here in the US for anyone that has never done real estate stuff.
Yeah, I know the types of videos you're talking about. This client is looking for a 5-10 minute documentary about the house itself, with an interview with the homeowner who designed and built it himself. Seems like a cool concept - if it ends up happening lol
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUVo6bA\_6v0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUVo6bA_6v0) basically this
Gotcha. Yeah that does seem pretty cool if it does come about. I think maybe the ones I'm talking about have the industry term "walk around" or "flow throughs" or something? Good luck OP! It's great that you have received solid advise from other professionals here, and I appreciate you sharing your experiences. I'm trying to learn the ropes on freelance work myself, and am gaining a lot of insight from this post!
Just out of curiosity: Would it ever be considered to build in a percentage of the final purchase price when the home is sold as a part of payment? I could see this being potentially mutually beneficial for both new agents and videographers, only after retainers and gear costs have been accounted for. Also I'm interested to know the clientele that utilizes videos like these. At last in my area (Washington DC Metro) houses sell within days of listing, some with very little pictures listed. Maybe when it gets to upper-tier mansions these are necessary? Or is it more about creating videos for the agent saying "look at the houses I have access to and can sell for you"?
Sometimes if its a commercial property that is being listed the agreement is the media will cost a certain percentage of the final selling price. Like 1%. Also the purpose of these high production videos are not to sell the house but to sell the listing agents brand. Also rich-people clout when they want bragging rights if one of these videos goes viral.
In most places in the U.S. it is actually illegal for anybody but the agent to make any commission off of a sale, including the media provider. That doesn't mean you couldn't say charge them a percentage of the asking price but you definitely cannot structure it as an actual commission based on the actual negotiated sale price. And the value of videos like these is not necessarily to sell the home, it's for an agent to take their next listing appointment to win more business from homeowners who are thinking about selling. They sit down at their listing presentation and go, "this is what I will do to help get you the most money for *your* home."
Oh wow didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know!
Sounds very much like my area, real estate video aren’t particularly well paid. For the mainstream ones.
You can make a killing during real estate media selling packages of photo video and virtual tours, but you definitely do not make a killing on individual videos. They are not worth a whole bunch of preproduction or spending half a day on site. You get in, shoot in 30-45 minutes, come back for twilight if it's a luxury prop, and bang out an edit in 90 minutes with a self-made template. I know lots of guys that are pulling in $150k+ doing real estate media because they do several shoots a day and outsource a lot of their editing.
Good to know. Thanks!
Yeah! It's an interesting niche to be sure. It takes a while to break into but I enjoy it and make a good living. It's kind of hard to dabble in it though because you really need to have specialty outsourced editors, 360° cameras and hosting services etc
Never ever do any work without a retainer (calling it a deposit implies they might get it back)
I learned this sale trick from a coworker: Talk money in the first meeting. Do a rough draft of what they are asking, make a quick calculations and give them a ballpark figure. Explain that you'll do the actual math when you go over the details, but this helps both to decise if it is an avenue worth pursuing. It feels wrong when you're not very experienced, especially when selling ourselves, it often feels like we are not worth asking for what amounts to a lot of money, but as seen from your invoice, what theyre asking for takea a lot of time. We often feel like doing business is about building relationships and being friendly first, and that we have to pretend that the money is just an after thought because we love working with people and we're not greedy. But it leads to endless meetings and coffees and calls only for the sunk cost fallacy to take hold and making you feel like you can't lose this sale since you've already invested so much. Instead, be upfront about what your time is worth. If they are not interested after a reasonable indication of the expected cost, this deal is not worth pursuing.
You're acting like a professional. They're not.
While it is easy to nitpick from the sidelines, he wasn't acting like a professional at the beginning. They didn't discuss price, sign a contract and he did not get a deposit before starting. I think OP is in the right here, but he can learn from his early mistakes.
Sure. He's got a lot to learn, but the client is plain unethical.
It’s tempting, of course because $5k or $6k isn’t a small amount of income regardless. However this just seems like the type of client who won’t be happy with the outcome and will pick apart everything, resulting in more work and putting up a fight to pay until it’s their version of perfect. IMO, it would be worth a final email explaining your normal process (deposit before any work begins), process of production, 2 rounds of revisions, and payment once agreed upon video is produced and that’s that. If they scoff at that, let them go. For your own sanity.
I’d walk. Partly because they’re offering you less, partly because they mistakenly think that working for them will bring you more work and hence they deserve a discount. But mostly because they don’t want to pay anything until AFTER the house sells. Lowering the fee is one thing, but they need to give you a down payment before the shoot to cover your fees for an assistant as well as travel, rentals, and ferry. It’s completely unrealistic for them to think you’ll work for free and just wait around for a check when/if the house sells. Get a deposit, do the work, get paid, deliver the final. That’s the proper order.
What if the house never sells.
"well, we didn't get the sale price we wanted, so paying your fee didn't seem appropriate after all the exposure we've already given you. good luck with everything!"
I put a Wells Fargo sign on my lawn and currently pay half my mortgage in exposure.
Retainer, not deposit. We have to collectively adjust that terminology. Deposits are returned. Retainers secure work and are not returned.
Is there a legal distinction here?* Edit: just googled. There is. I will no longer being using the term deposit in any of my contracts.
Deposits aren't always returned. Often the deposit is locking in a payment that can't be returned if you cancel an order.
That's true, but language would have to be added into the contract about what happens to the deposit in case of no payment, etc.
Yeah, that's what I'm describing. It's still like, a deposit though. We don't have to use another, fancier term for it!
Exactly! If the house sells and how fast it sells is nothing the filmmaker can influence. If they market it badly or price is just too high you'll never get paid.
I mean, you’re not even charging for equipment. If anything this quote is low, but agreed with u/dalecookie that the budget should have been dealt with ages ago.
Agreed, the only reason you should be sending this breakdown so late is if they are changing the scope and requesting an update. But then nothing should be coming as a crazy surprise either. I also can’t figure out the rates either. W/o gear, that’s 1500/10 which is like Union DP rates (not saying too much, since that’s just a minimum, but just for reference). But if you’re getting that, you definitely DON’T need exposure lol. But if it DOES include your standard kit, that seems on the low end too (although totally depends on what your kit includes, especially with the 2nd videographer making half of that w/ addition kit too). If that’s what you’re doing, my personal opinion: don’t ever bundle labor and kit either. It creates confusion since it looks like you are getting WAY more and there is no justification as to why. People understand if a $50k camera costs 250/day to rent. They don’t understand YOU making 250/day more if another camera gets used by someone else
Do you usually itemize equipment. Are you specific are you? Would you simply list Drone, 2 cameras, gimbal, lighting---maybe based on a package where you have basic, medium, and extreme....or something? I guess I need to see more invoices to see what everyones doing.
Partly depends on the job, but I usually just break it down to base kits. For example, Drone Kit @ $$$/Day. This includes the drone, remote, sds, filters, batteries, etc (basically anything I would always bring if I was simply asked to bring a drone). But if I’m asked for something extra, that gets a separate line to represent the added cost. This is partly for transparency, partly to track add-ons since the company can change their mind. If they just see one large number, they may completely back out (like OPs scenario), when it’s possible the “last straw” was a $50 add-on that they don’t see in the line items. For example, if I need a backup drone bc we are in a remote location and wouldn’t be able to source one in the event of a crash, the backup is an added line (I usually charge half rate or something like that since it’s not supposed to get used). Where it “depends on the job” is two factor. If I’m the operator, I don’t mind being less detailed since I will know what is supposed to be there and what was working properly. If I’m renting to a whole crew (for example 3 cameras and I’m not the only operator), I’ll get more detailed (# of cables, # of cards, etc) so I can properly inventory everything at the end of the job, whether that’s for me to reimburse or a production company L&D is also job dependent. If it’s a production company, I’m even MORE detailed, down to serial numbers bc they need that info for their insurance. The level of detail is partly personal preference, partly job necessity. But that’s even MORE reason NOT to lump it into your personal rate on a budget line.
That makes a lot of sense, thanks!!
Oh yes, I totally list all equipment with rates. If it's a camera, it's also lenses, batteries w/charger, filters, tripod, cards, card reader, laptop for data transfer- everything is listed. They have to realize what all is involved.
I’d expect double this invoice rate with equipment and insurance. Create a peer group to review your quotes and you’ll be surprised how much higher you should be charging.
Especially with load in and out with a boat ride.
Not knowing anything about your position, the client, etc., personally I'd say you're about 4k shy. Location shoot, 2nd shooter +gear, shoot day length (if they're having you do sunrise shots that could lead to an overtime shoot day) etc. Also, I didn't see a revision limit in your post hours which could lead a client like this to endless nitpicking. So, no, you're not overcharging, they're trying to get you on the cheap. In my humble opinion.
Well said. This is a huge consideration as well OP. These are also probably the clients that will come back with "Oh we actually found someone to do it for $3500. Can you match that?" To which my answer is usually: "Wow, that sounds like a deal! You should go with them. Also, can I get their contact info? I'd like to hire them for some other work."
That’s a killer line!
Yeah peace out on this fucker OP.
No. If anything, I believe you are charging too little. You set the prices - the client does not get to dictate the price, the payment terms nor your method of production. Serious, professional clients do not attempt to negotiate production services. I would consider this a major red flag and a client that you will most likely have to chase down for payment and possible small claims court to recover. If you do proceed with this client, I would insist on full payment upfront. This realtor is going to make 10-15% on a property worth in excess of, mostly likely, $1 million. This means they stand to make a minimum of 100k. In order to secure that sale, you asking 6k is extremely generous for the amount of work and time you are having to spend. This client has no problems charging what they are charging for their services but has a problem with another businessperson charging a fair fee for theirs. If it were us, we would be saying “Our corporate policy requires full payment for shoots to secure a booking. We have a long-standing history with a diverse range of clients. We will unfortunately not be able to proceed without full payment of $X.XXX” I would stand your ground with this one and let this client go if they don’t budge. They will save you many sleepless nights later. FWIW.
I see where you're going with this, but I've never heard of a realtor getting 10-15% except for like a convenience store without property at 80-100k. Curious to know if this is actually a thing somewhere else in the world cuz it sounds juicy
It is and most certainly can be remarkably juicy. Also, where I am, it’s often 5-8%. But that’s beside the point - it could be 1%, 100% or they could be making their commission in macaroni or vintage POGs. Any way you slice it…the quote is way too low and the “client” is a red flag pasta.
That’s a good price right there. This is probably a multi million dollar home. Real estate agents are the worst clients in my opinion.
You'll never see a dime from this guy.
Walk away. Don’t be an ass about it. Just say politely “I don’t think I’m the right person for this project. Best of luck.”
I’m sooooooo over clients mentioning “exposure”. Unless you’re providing me a Super Bowl ad spot or linking me with 3 other paying clients after I’m done working with you, your “exposure” has just as much worth to me as a stale piece of dog poop.
An invoice is usually what you send when you are asking for money based off of previously agreed fees or pay structure outlined in a proposal or contract document. Do you mean you sent a proposal with these fees, or did he already agree to the fees and you've now invoiced him? If he already agreed, then he needs to pay. If this is just you guys negotiating, then figure out a way to make it worth both your while (if he needs it cheaper, scale down the project so you don't have to use the other video guy or it takes less time). If you can't figure it out, then it's no deal.
You're right, I used the wrong term in my distracted posting! The top of this sheet said "estimate", and it's the first time the client saw anything price-related. I'll 1000% get a contract signed with them before moving forward, if we ever get to that point. I was mostly worried about being way off base with my estimate, but there are lots of other issues with this client that I can learn from. Thanks for the advice!
Sounds like a scammer. So many errors. Do you know this guy?
Yeah, the diction is extremely similar to a lot of scam messages I get for photography. Huge red flags all over this.
Honestly the second “exposure” is mentioned I say “thank you but no” and won’t do the job. I get that people need to eat and pay bills but saying “exposure” just means it will be problem after problem
I’ll never let the client dictate how I run my business. If I’m buying from their business, you think they’d let me come in and modify their prices, terms & business processes? No. They’d tell me to fuck off, or follow their process.
Stay well away from this. But do it with manners. If this was me replying I would say: Thanks for the reply, I'm sorry the quote doesn't agree with you. Would you like my help finding you another video Grapher who may find your conditions acceptable? Look forward to hearing from you Signed You
👋 realtor here. Worst part of my job… working with other realtors. If he is selling that kind of high end luxury and can’t afford to pay you out of his pocket, he is not confident with his skills. Know your value and stand firm. The reality is if you discount them this job, they will either want it again, or go somewhere else because they don’t want to haggle. If it’s worth the money to you and you don’t have anything else lined up, take it, if you can find other work in place of it let it go. They likely will get in inferior product from another photographer/videographer or not be able to match your bid. I personally never hire the cheap guy unless I know there worth it, or there is a reason we have to lowball. Prior to being a realtor I was a home inspector. 50% of the time they asked for pay at close they never kept me up to date when closing was and I had to track them down. Several of those times they never gave the invoice to the title company so they had to pay me out of their pocket after closing after I threatened to contact their broker and report them to the realtor association. I understand a roof being pay at close, but videography… realtor needs to pony up. He’s putting all the risk on you. You can always make him sign a contract requiring him to pay out of pocket after a certain date, but then you gotta keep up with it and be ready to take them to court if necessary.
Don't walk, run away from this person. "Payment on the day the sale closes" is the most insane thing I've ever heard. They will fuck you
If you didn't sign a contract, you can try to negotiate if you don't want to take a haircut. If you did sign a contract, they are responsible for paying up based on those terms. Personally, 2 people + gear + transpo + pre and post for a multi-day location shoot for a luxury real estate property? $6K is chump change. When I was in-house at a luxury sports car manufacturer, we hired a 4(?)-man production team (1 photo, 2 video, 1 drone) for a two-day event and we paid something like $20,000 for that (granted, there were some rentals we paid for and stuff, but even without those it would've been upwards of $15K). Taking a $1,000 hit sucks, but if you don't have a contract, it may be better to just cut your losses and take it as a lesson, especially if there's potential for repeat business (iffy, but not impossible).
When this person said "exposure" they implied they are doing YOU a favor. Walk.
Not a snowballs chance in hell that I would ever allow someone to work with me after they send me an email like that. Disrespectful, rude, controlling, petulant. If you do want to move forward, I would do this: Remove items from your invoice to meet their $5k, and then absolutely do not shoot a damn second of footage until you’re paid in full, if they need to reschedule until they pay then do that. I’ve never been paid AFTER project completion with the exception of clients I’ve had for 5+ years for ongoing work. To imagine they intend to pay you the full $5k when they sell is hopeful at best, and if they did they would reduce the amount and put off and delay payment based on pretty much any excuse they can think of. In zero other industries do companies pay their marketing agencies on a TBD basis only after they have enough money from clients.
I think you’re actually undervaluing the job with this quote. Post production especially is so low.
Fuck this guy, hard! Waaaaaaay too many red flags. I'd add a "being a fucking idiot surcharge" to the quote and send it back to him with another 0 on the end 🤣
Like, I wouldn't tell you how to do your job... but no contract and no deposit means no thanks.
I hire shooters all the time. The tone of this joker is ridiculous. Little alpha wanna-be. Get far from this dude. Something stinks.
And then there is me who I make my clients pay in full days before shooting or at least on the same day of the first shoot (I do social media packages) why are people so afraid of asking for payment?
I wouldnt work with anyone that questions my rates and thinks they can tell me how much i should charge. I dont get paid when the sales close, I get paid before i leave the house or i aint shooting shit.
No this is a fair value invoice for what the client requested. Most real estate clients suck. Just the mention of “exposure” and his insistance that they won’t pay until the sale closes should make you run the other direction. Get ready for weeks of the most nitpicky edit requests.
Do not take this.
Don’t walk, Run. Also, this is a great rate with consideration to artistic ability and your delivered quality, any cheaper and you’ll go broke. These red flags will manifest into bounced checks, litigation, and craziness. Know what your sanity is worth and the value you provide.
Run, don't walk, away from this. This client is obviously a nightmare. They will be a nightmare to work with. They are rude and demanding, and they seem to think very little of you as a business and a person. I promise that if you do this project, you'll regret it.
No. You wildly are not overcharging at all. You're fine. There are a lot of red flags in their response. A client doesn't tell you what they will pay. They can tell you their budget and ask what can be done within their budget. Exposure or the promise for future work is a giant nope. That mostly means they are low balling you or they don't understand the costs that are involved in video production. Cut ties. Focus on other clients or self marketing.
WALK. 1. It costs what it costs. They don't get to dictate what they're paying you unless they're asking you to reduce your hours to meet their budget. 2. You should not be getting paid when the house sells, you should be getting paid when you've done your part. 3. Fuck "exposure"
RUN AWAY! This guy’s tone is disgusting, and disrespectful. “I will pay $5,000 total…” Wtf? Imagine going to a grocery store to buy chicken, and you telling the cashier what you’ll pay for it. Fuck outta here.
No, client has all the classic hallmarks of a pain in the ass. You just saved yourself 64 hours of work and whole lot of heartache trying to get paid for it.
The fact that they're telling you they won't pay you until they don't need you anymore is suspect. You shouldn't do any work at all without at least 50% up front.
Any time "exposure" is mentioned as an alternative to actual payment, you should walk. Whomever would be hiring your services certainly isn't working for clicks, or likes, or any other form of fake influencer cash, they're working for money, actual, tangible, pay-your-bills-with-it money.
Just the vibe of this feels gross. Spidey sense
Hard to say if you're over charging because it depends lots on the market you're in. I would definitely drop any client that talks about exposure or only paying when the home sells. That's absurd. I think your only mistake is not mailing down a budget a long time ago, and also sending a detailed list like this. No one really gives a shit how many hours you work. In fact trying to justify your price by your hours gives more of an employee vibe. Focus on deliverables and results. Your job is to solve this guy's marketing problems. It's irrelevant to him whether that will take you 4 hours or 40 hours. You didn't convince him of the value of your solution to his problem, you tried to convince him because of how much time it was going to cost YOU. But ultimately I wouldn't work with this person anyway.
Anybody that can give you "exposure" that is worth anything can afford to pay you.
Even if you were overcharging, payment "on the day the sale closes" is SOOOOO bad. Run away.
This is gonna sting cause obviously you want the money but this guy is shady as hell. He’s been setting you up to low ball you and trying to use his big boy realtor negotiation tactics he learned from some wanna be Drill Sargent “online coach” who says you have to have a six pack to work for him. You don’t care when his sale closes, your work is done and must be paid 30 days or whatever you do personally. Exposure in a real estate video is not a thing. You’re being completely reasonable, he sucks.
Fuck your exposure. How's that going to feed my family? And what the fuck kind of exposure am I going to get out of a real estate video? Are they selling this house to Spielberg? Damn, that response pisses me off. This is the worst kind of customer. They will never appreciate my value. Meanwhile, they're standing by for a six-figure commission.
Your quote is fine, that client is terrible.
Tell him you wish him the best of luck. He’ll go for the lowest bidder and be unhappy with the quality. Then he’ll either disappear with his tail between his legs, or, man up and admit he was wrong, and pay your rate on the next shoot. Stick to your guns, your rate is fine for the job.
Your pricing is extremely reasonable and this guy sets off all sorts of red flags. Do not take this unless he is paying you the full $6005 and paying it up-front, not "at close".
$1000 is chump change on real estate deals. If he's going to raise a fuss over that he is probably a perpetual haggler who will pick arguments or refute charges over and over again until you're run so ragged dealing with them that you're settling on scraps. Let him be someone else's problem.
lol you would be crazy dumb to accept any part of this deal
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^HotlineBirdman: *Lol you would* *Be crazy dumb to accept* *Any part of this deal* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
everyone has given you good advice. walk away. red flags. etc... some slimy people will do this - try to push the final agreement on rates as far as possible, so that they can strong-arm you knowing that you can't possibly book another gig on such short notice. pushing this off for months is extremely scummy, and while i could say "hey, you should've nipped that in the bud", i'm guessing you know that lesson very saliently now. i will add this, which i haven't seen people say (but maybe it's down the page a bit): there is a chance that, when you tell the client you're walking away from the job, they might capitulate. it's imperative that you **do not accept their business**. at least not for this invoice. these people rationalize that if what they did was wrong, then they would have gotten punished. if they can be a deranged asshole to you and then relent and agree to pay your $6k invoice with no other consequence except paying the rate that they were supposed to pay in the first place, then they effectively paid no price whatsoever for this transgressive behavior. that's not just terrible for you - it's terrible for the entire profession. it's important for all the professionals in your area that nobody normalizes tolerating this. if the client comes scrambling back to get your business a week from now, then you should send them an invoice with a *steep* surcharge for the last-minute nature of the job, and demand a substantial fraction (eg 1/2) of the invoice to be paid before the first day of shooting. that being said, hopefully you never hear from this person again. how often do you start a professional relationship with someone on this kind of footing and get to the end of the gig and think "wow, that worked out quite smoothly"? my experience is "never". these people are full of drama and trouble from tip to tail.
I primarily do luxury real estate videos. Getting paid when the agent closes the sale would never happen. If I did agree to that, I’d want half of the agent’s commission. After all, I’m taking on risk at that point. The demeanor of this client is not good. Sounds like a nightmare, ego maniac client.
Ye you need to get out of that sale asap. Sounds like a right prick.
Fuck them, man. So many hell no statements there. He can go to hell with his exposure. And “I will pay $5,000…. “
“Demands”. Yeah that’s a no go for me partner
Exposure? For a real estate video? And they won’t pay you until the house sells? Run don’t walk.
“Payment after sale is closed” that’s all you have to know
If this motherfucker is like this BEFORE you agree to the gig… you know, the sweet-talking phase… imagine how they will treat you after you sign on
They phrase that like it's a hostile negotiation lol. Politely tell them you are unable to offer the project as is at their target price. If you want you can see if there's an item you can knock off the list to bring the price down. Like say if you don't have to spend the night. Fuck em tho
I’d’ve charged 10k. They sound like a nightmare to work with though after they made that claim about exposure.
People die from exposure.
Idk I’m not at a point where I’d walk away from a 1k difference here. I’d demand 25 or 50% upfront though.
the only ‘exposure’ a client like this will bring you is more clients like them. cheap, demanding, demeaning and unreasonable.
I'd probably charge the same for it.
$6k is a screaming deal on what you described. Editing should be at least $1500. Baller move is to write a new quote/estimate with all of the suggestions in the comments (equipment, revisions, 'difficult client fee', etc). Reply to the client with "i apologize for the error in my previous quote. Thank you for your patience and allowing me to correct it." Attach the new quote of $10k-$12k. Disclaimer: this is the petty route. I can take it because it's not my business or reputation. You probably shouldn't.
You're usually better off charging a little bit more and then making them feel better by taking off a little bit. It's a game but there's so many that love to play it.
Here's my rule of thumb for rates; most people set their own rates competitively to incur favor, but you should price a project as if you had to outsource everything. Can you find an editor that would do what you wanted for 50/hr, preproduction for 40/hr? Because that's the only way you can price your business with growth and subcontractors built in. If you're shooting for 150/hr, price the rest of your time appropriately. Make sure that rate is separate from the kit fee. Charge for OT.
The fact the client was hesitant and avoidant discussing money is a big red flag. If you do decide to take this gig I would advise getting them to pay half up front to make sure they don’t stiff you or renegotiate price after the piece is shot. I don’t think you are overcharging at all. In fact I’m going to screenshot this for reference.
Not much to add and you’re getting good advice from this sub. So many red flags that if you’re in a financial position to walk away may want to consider doing so. 1) Do you have a contract (I assume not since there’s no price agreement but have to ask as that changes advice) 2) Does this client have a history of working with videographers or working in real estate? Sometime the background helps to know if they’re slimy or just ignorant of the market/hiring process. 3) Do you have number of revisions and response timelines built in to the contract? My videographer spidey sense is off the charts this client will be a pain in post and use any excuse not to pay. Can’t help myself and gotta echo the not being paid until the house closes. Get the upfront and then final on delivery. Document everything if you have to go to small claims. Any time you have to actively plan around small claims is a sign a client isn’t worth it but again, I totally get personal financial needs and the portfolio addition. Good luck!
Exposure? Nah, the only way I’d give anyone a discount is if they refer 3 of their friends that *actually* buy full price from me beforehand. Then maybe we can discuss a discount.
Your prices are very reasonable. I’d be charging $80/hour for pre and post. Client seems like a douche to haggle you down $1000 when you’ve basically laid out terms for the bare minimum here.
You didn't shoot yet? Like, you've done a lot of talking, and not shot or edited a frame of video yet? Cut a thousand bucks worth of stuff from the quote and do the gig for $5k. Take the money and run. PS, I get paid when I deliver the video, not when the house sells.
Hell I would have never sent an itemized invoice. Here’s my price, take it or leave it. Itemized invoices just give people stuff to nitpick. I’d would have gave them a price, wrote down what was part of the contract, ie. Length, amount of edits, ect… and that would have been it.
This doesn’t sound like the kind of project you’ll get any actual exposure from. No one cares who shot a real estate video filled with talking heads. Stick with your quote.
"Yeah no problem I will remove the charges for pre production and post production which will get you to your budget of $5,000. I will however warn you this means I will be showing up unprepared and will only be able to provide you will unedited footage after the shoot. It really is a shame you can not afford to get those services as I would consider them vital to the success of any project."
"Unfortunately those terms won't be within my ability, the price is already my discounted rate, and I would not be able to confirm the contract without a 50% non refundable deposit. I was looking forward to this project so I'm sorry it didn't work out for me to help you with it, I'm sure we will find something to work on together in future."
I mean is it worth losing $5k over $1k? It sucks you're just finding this out. Pre pro and lighting (granted its your kit) could easily be eaten. If you think this is a client a lot of work could come from say you'll cut them a deal on this first one. If there have already been tons of read flags maybe this is the straw that breaks the camels back and walk away.
Not worth it, they will screw you
Paid upon escrow, lol. What a douche move assuming this wasn’t already discussed. I’d walk away on principle alone. Or tell them it’s $3k down, plus $5k upon escrow if I’m being bought as if I were a pair of Reebok’s on Kmart layaway plan.
Seems pretty low to me. Still working on my site but here's a sample invoice page if you kind of want to get a rough idea of what companies will pay....this is not the real site name, it's a url I'm just building the site on. I actually don't know what the rates the agency charged these clients but this is what I would have charged if the clients came directly to me. [Estimate Examples Page – PhotonMover](https://photonmover.com/Staging01/estimate-examples-page/)
I’d walk away from this one honestly, like others have said, too many red flags from the client. They’ll probably be unhappy regardless and leave a scathing 0/5 review. The only questions I have is why do you need to spend the night at the house instead of getting there in the morning before dawn to setup? Are you charging them for the overnight stay?
It's an entirely you decision. Some would be stoked for the 5k. I understand it's not an easy part of running a business
Bail. This is a shit shoot. Next time, have an estimate and a 50% deposit paid for. Money should (excuse the caps, but I mean it) ALWAYS BE IN THE DISCOVERY DISCUSSIONS.