I saw Ronin well after the whole Sean Bean always dies meme. The amount of times I was like "yeah this is it"... By the end of that movie I had Bean Balls. It's like blue balls but it's what happens when you watch a movie like Ronin waiting for Sean Bean to die, but instead you get cock teased nonstop because his character is pretty much expected to die in every single scene he's in just by nature of how he's written and the danger... BUT SOMEHOW.....
But however, not in the original version.
During the war, Paris killed Achilles by shooting his heel with a poisoned arrow.
Late in the war, Paris was killed by Philoctetes.
I've always loved the line he says to the kid who brings him his shield.
Boy: "They say you can't be killed"
Achilles: "Well, I wouldn't be bothering with a shield then, would I?"
Agamemnon: Perhaps we should have our war tomorrow, when you're better rested.
I should have you whipped for your impudence!
Achilles: Perhaps you should fight him.
Interestingly Saul, the first king of Israel was selected to be king due to his prowess in battle and good looks. When he was older and a practiced politician he was less heroic and adventurous and relied on a shepherd to slay the giant if the philistines. He would eventually come to fear that shepherd would take the throne from him, and he was correct.
Achilles tries the same move on Hector in this scene, but Hector blocks it.
Also, for most of the fight Hector is the aggressor, and Achilles is the one backing up and defending. Even though you can tell Hector knows he has no chance going into it, but he knows keeping Achilles from being aggressive is the only possible strategy he has.
I mean, putting aside the nitpicky stuff of 'that's not how you really fight with those weapons' and whatnot, for my money the fight was actually over at 2:34 in the video and the rest is just playing with his food. The sequence that starts at 2:24 and ends at 2:34 begins with Hector already on the backfoot coming in and attacking wide outside the line again and again but the way Achilles holds the center calmly and even lets Hector get as close as he did without ever faltering or even respecting his offensive options is so utterly dominant the rest is a foregone conclusion.
For how bad Hollywood is at "that's not how you fight with those weapons" (I cringed SO hard at Wednesday and Bianca's duel because they already showed in the *same fucking scene* they know what fencing looks like), this was pretty damn reasonable.
You don't normally see accurate representations of what fighting with a spear looks like in Hollywood, because they aren't flashy weapons with big swinging arcs like you get with big fantasy swords.
This comes as close as you can get while still giving Hollywood what it wants.
> You don't normally see accurate representations of what fighting with a spear looks like in Hollywood, because they aren't flashy weapons with big swinging arcs like you get with big fantasy swords.
It's a brutal, confusing mess of bodies and blood. Just look at "hollywood" fights and and actual brawl. In real life you're not entering a fight and taking on multiple people, executing your punches and blocks perfectly. You're going to be desperately groping and throwing punches as you gasp for air and barely keep yourself standing after a minute or two. Shit sucks in reality, and they ignore the "best" part of a fight; recovering, which can take awhile depending on how bad you overestimated your abilities.
Especially larger battles. There was no big dash of both armies crunching together or stopping just before and swinging like you see in Lord of the Rings, for example. It was a careful dance of each side getting close than executing poking/lunging attacks back and forth until a large group of either side turned/ran. More like two scared schoolkids fighting than the dramatic, theatrical stuff you see in movies. You know what constituted as a "good soldier" back then? Wasn't skill, being a good soldier basically came down to following orders, and not turning and running when half the people next to you get eviscerated. That was largely the deciding factor of who "won", was simply who could stand more truama/deaths before calling it quits and saying "Nah, fuck that" and getting killed as they run.
If you want some good content on the realities of combat and such in history, Dan Carlin and Lions Led by Donkeys are good for listening. Plenty of good books out there too.
For all its faults in later seasons, Game of Throne's Battle of the Bastards was a damn near perfect representation of what I imagine a real medieval battle would've been.
The problem with walled fortifications is that while the enemy cannot get in, neither can food and water. Water, maybe there’s a well inside the fort, but food is definitely limited.
So if you just turtle up, the clock starts ticking on you, while the enemy just needs to put a piquet on your fort and can go ham on your countryside.
Better to meet the enemy army in the field, supported by the fort. It gives your wounded a safe place to retreat to during the fight, and if things start to go badly, you can retreat in good order back into the fort and save your army from complete destruction.
Meanwhile, the enemy cannot replace every casualty you inflict - and if he routs, he has no safe place to recover.
Battles for forts are won or lost outside the walls.
A good tactic is to have reinforcements to encircle the beseigers, and always leave space for them to escape. I believe Ceasar has a number of times where he was able to turn the beseigers into the besieged this way.
Often though, ancient fortifications are made around a water source to outlast seiges. Food remains a problem for sure.
In college, anytime something was fucking with us and we wanted to joke about bringing in the big guns to deal with it we’d always go “boagRIUUUUUUS!!!!”
Absolutely love the film, but this was my main gripe with that scene too lol.
Like “ok we’ll have our fight but if you try to desecrate the body of the goddamned PRINCE, my archers gonna arch ya, obviously”
Yeah, contested landings weren't really a thing back then, you'd just land somewhere else and walk. It's not like the city you're going to besiege is gonna run away.
There are a number of historical accounts of contested landings. Ships were slow and landing points few, armies often shadowed armada to try and prevent them landing or attack them while they did so.
This is such a reddit thread. One person says landings weren't a thing in that time. Another person says there are a number of historical accounts. The rest of the redditors have no idea but that wont stop most of them from picking a side.
It wasn't just that. It's the Trojans going down a steep hill to attack the Greeks instead of just sitting on the high ground. The use of fire arrows.
And the absolute worst is all the giant wooden stakes thrown randomly about
Darius I would like a word, as would Aeschylus and his brother, Cynegeirus.
At the Battle of Marathon the Greeks not only opposed the Persians’ landing, they opposed their ships _leaving_. Cynegeirus was killed when he waded into the water and took hold of a Persian boat to drag it back onto the beach.
Ancient greek had their own code of honor, Arête, and just sniping Achilles in this situation would have run against that. According to Iliad, Hector knew he would die at Achilles hand, Achilles knew his choices were to kill Hector and then die himself, or live very long life but without any glory.
I worked with a guy named Hector for a long time and this is how I would greet him every day. In retrospect I am sure it got old after a while but damn if I didn't milk it for all its worth.
This is my go-to example where the director's cut made a huge improvement (ok maybe it's Kingdom of Heaven but this is a close second). I felt the theatrical version was just a dumb action flick, and I could see how some would think the director's cut is a little too slow paced, but I just love the feel for the character development... you really start to feel for the characters and their losses (except Paris, he's a little bitch)
"I am Ajax, breaker of stones! Look upon me and despair!"
There are other parts with Odysseus, but that one part that stuck with me. Highly recommend the director's cut.
What makes this fight unique for me is that they show fatigue. Hector ultimately loses because he gasses and becomes sloppy while Achilles stamina holds. That's how fights work in real world. Most movies just show characters with infinite cardio which is just so unrealistic.
The King on Netflix has some brutal fights like this. Guys in full plate armor just gassed on the ground stabbing or smashing each other in the face however they can.
I agree, but that fall and ankle twist Hector took definitely didn't help. Your comment re-windedness is cogent too. Overall what makes the fight great is that there's a clear arc to it, and definitely a back-and-forth rather than a straight up Achilles stomp.
For a minute, it's clear that Hector's got the upper hand. He manages to get the graze in on Achilles. Achilles looks rattled for a moment, right before they cut back to O'Toole's Priam verging on a smile as he sees his son has a chance.
Not for long, though, as when Hector tries to push his momentum, Achilles manages to knock him to the ground. You can see Hector's ankle twist on that rock (btw, how great is Eric Bana's physical acting, here?), and it's at that point you can tell it's over. Hector hobbles over to grab the broken spear point, while also struggling to get back on his feet. The rest of the fight, Hector is both winded and less agile due to his ankle, it does him in.
What a great fight in an otherwise sorta schlocky movie.
A fantastic example of this honestly is the legendary [Wheels on Meals fight](https://youtu.be/Zlwh8x7bygk) between Jackie Chan and Benny the Jet. I posted lower down that my favorite fight on screen was a different Jackie Chan fight, but I was reminded of this one while hunting through YouTube and definitely want to change my answer.
His jump stab move with the spear has been copied in other movies and games. Think the last time I saw it was the new God of War. Every time I see it done it reminds me of Troy.
I personally really liked the over-the-shoulder spear resting in the dip in the shield, as well as when he switched stances and rotated the shield with crisp sound. Was also pretty cool to realize that they had the swords sheathed behind the shields for once the spears broke.
I have a psvr and in Swordsman you can wield a sword and shield. Resting the sword on the shield and using your sword like a pool stick is very satisfying.
In the Illiad, the Achilles heel is not a thing. Achilles doesn't even die in the Illiad. It's only predicted that he will die, with no mention to his heel that didn't get dunked into the Styx, that myth came around much later way after the Illiad and gets retroactively applied.
[Reddit's attitude towards consumers has been increasingly hostile as they approach IPO. I'm not interested in using their site anymore, nor do I wish to leave my old comments as content for them.]
You like the regular old Iliad then.
Don't know why you are suggesting without the later Achillies heel myth that suddenly the rest of the mystical stuff disappears. For the Illiad is loaded with the Gods constantly appearing and intervening, alongside all sorts of magic. All that is fundamental to the Illiad unlike the Achillies heel myth which was again a later addition not found in the Illiad proper.
It's interesting that this movie made you feel this way, my most recent exposure to the Iliad was the book Song of Achilles so when I watch this fight I'm just wanting Achilles to avenge Patroclus
It's supposed to be that way. Hector is human and relatable (this is true for the Iliad and its good translations too). Achilles for most of the story is more or less a monster. But the story is about Achilles because he undergoes character progression with the death of Patroclus and Hector. You'll always root for Hector, but he had to die.
After the Trojan War, following Hector's murder by Achilles and the city's capture and sacking by the Greeks, the Greek herald Talthybius informed her of the plan to kill Astyanax, her son by Hector, by throwing him from the city walls. This act was carried out by Neoptolemus who then took Andromache as a concubine and Hector's brother, Helenus, as a slave. By Neoptolemus, she was the mother of Molossus, and according to Pausanias, of Pielus and Pergamus. When Neoptolemus died, Andromache married Helenus and became Queen of Epirus. Pausanias also implies that Helenus' son, Cestrinus, was by Andromache. In Epirus Andromache faithfully continued to make offerings at Hector’s cenotaph. Andromache eventually went to live with her youngest son, Pergamus in Pergamum, where she died of old age
For greek tragedies this can be a somewhat happy ending
I think Greek mythology is what eventually led to names being shortened and simplified.
We have the visionary Joe from Crete to thank for his infinite wisdom and farsightedness.
The *Troy* drinking game:
Take a drink every time:
- Someone yells another person’s name
- Someone says “the gods”
- Someone with a name dies
- Achilles insults someone
- Paris is a little bitch
The directors cut is the only cut of that movie. The theatrical release was a joke. They cut out the entire arc about the son, making the mother’s arc not make sense
I was always super obsessed with the Morpheus vs Neo fight in the matrix due to how long the shots are in that film. Western films just started going wild with the cuts in the early 2000s.
I'm gonna do the opposite and link Liam Neeson being awesome in [this excellent fight scene from Rob Roy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERmM5l2ceoY).
Yeah, the choreography is cool but it's so chopped up it's really hard to connect. You barely ever get to see a move in full. I also wish they'd pull the camera back just two feet so we could see their full bodies move. Closeups are fine but their full body shots are weirdly cut off at the top.
Definitely the Iliad and Odyssey for those new to the epic. Speaking as a dude who’s listened to the audiobook of SoA on repeat more times than I can count, the book leans more as a Greek BL romance, some people may not be so into that focus especially if they aren’t privy to Homer’s work. Regardless I love SoA as I found it during my coming out around the pandemic. I’m reading the Odyssey right now and love getting to know more about Odysseus’ struggles post Troy.
Brad Pitt and Eric Bana had an agreement that they’d pay $50 every tap and $100 for each big hit that was accidental. I guess Brad owed like $750 by the end of the shoot. Such a good fight scene!
I genuinely try not to get too hung up on battle scenes being realistic looking. Fights in performances are there to dazzle and look cool, it's a different goal, so I can understand there being things that don't make sense in a real fight but are there for style. But Achilles fighting for 12 seconds (I measured) with his shield held behind his back is for me taking the corpse of verisimilitude and doing the fuckin Macarena on top of it.
The purpose of the fights is to tell the story; Achilles is arrogant, prideful, angry. He is taunting a weak opponent who we have come to like and in a way he is taunting the audience. Has he no shame? Has he no honor? Hector treats him with dignity and Achilles treats him like dirt.
We also have the "what ifs", in the movie we don't see magic or gods but we know the characters believe in them. They also say Achilles is invincible, and at times he says he isn't but he often acts as though he is. So we are left wondering, can be really be killed? In the end we see he can, stumbling about Troy as it burns, his one redeeming quality isn't enough to save him.
>He is taunting a weak opponent who we have come to like
I chafe at this, though I agree with your wider point. Both in the movie and the source material, Hector isn't a "weak" opponent. He's the greatest warrior of Troy, surpassing all other Greeks/Hellenes/Achaeans.
Except, of course, Achilles. It's not that Hector's weak, it's just that Achilles, for all his pride, is just leagues above any other mortal.
The comments here are surprisingly favorable, for a movie I remember being pretty widely mocked at the time.
Suspension of disbelief can only carry you so far, and it isn't far enough for this ridiculous choreography.
This film was clearly made to make sense with no supernatural stuff going on. Fighting like that is just gonna get you killed in the real world, and it doesn't matter how otherwise skilled you are. As I said, I acknowledge that it makes sense for film fights to involve stuff that you wouldn't do in a real fight, but looks cool. For me, that pushes that line so far that it stops me from enjoying the scene, as I can no longer suspend disbelief.
I love it but the bit where the camera moves past a still sword and it makes the *schwing* noise is SO fucking funny and silly. I mean it's a silly fun movie anyway but they must have been laughing their asses off in the editing booths when they did that.
My guess is he is saying while the action of Troy was good, the story and script itself was pretty poor.
I am guessing. Not agreeing. Ive never seen Troy
I saw it in theaters with a group of nerdy teenage boys and we uniformly panned the stilted dialogue at the time. One of my high school's frequent substitute teachers was in the audience. When she was covering my class the next week, I asked her how she liked it, because we thought the action was fun but everything else was pretty wooden and the dialogue sucked.
She immediately defended it with, "well if you think about it, that's probably how they actually talked back in ancient times."
If I remember correctly, the poem has Hector wearing Achilles’ armour which he had stripped from Patroclus. Achilles knows that the one weak spot in the armour is at the base of the neck where there is a small notch, and throws his spear so it punctures through. Hector dies, chocking on blood and pleading for his body to be returned to his father.
Probably looks like crap unedited, settings missing by miles, unathletic dudes, etc. Ever seen a fight scene on network tv? That's what they look like unedited
This is not a good fight scene. The choreography is really well done and cool but the constant cuts in the editing let you know the actors were only splicing one or two moves at a time and then calling cut. It probably took days if not weeks to film this fight.
https://youtu.be/QLL9plgz0pg
These guys are throwing 5, 6, 7 moves together with no cuts. Sure they are using strings and baby powder and other special effects but the choreography and stunt work is phenomenal.
Bana and Pitt really deserve some kudos for giving it their all here. Terrific work. I remember seeing the movie in cinemas and while it didn’t quite hit the heights I’d hoped it would, this fight was standout scene in action movies that year.
This fight was awesome for sure, but the fight scene that really stuck with me was when Paris is getting was getting dominated in the duel before Hector steps in. It is hard to imagine anything in life being that terrifying.
Hector wife plays superbly in that scene at 1:37.
You really feel the fear growing on her when she gets that it won't end well for her husband just by witnessing the first moves of Achilles.
I wonder how actors manage to perform in such accurate skill. Do they train in front of a coach ?
on a cinematic view, i dont like it, way too much cut. its borderline epileptic.
I would rather see the action lasting a bit longer before to switch to another angle
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
Casting an actor with long straight blonde hair for an ancient Greek hero always irked me, but turns out that Achilles is described as having fair/tawny/blonde hair in the Illiad:
> Grief came upon the son of Peleus, and within his shaggy breast his heart was divided, whether he should draw his sharp sword from beside his thigh, [190] and break up the assembly, and slay the son of Atreus, or stay his anger and curb his spirit. While he pondered this in mind and heart, and was drawing from its sheath his great sword, Athene came from heaven. The white-armed goddess Hera had sent her forth, [195] for in her heart she loved and cared for both men alike. She stood behind him, and seized the son of Peleus **by his fair hair,** appearing to him alone. No one of the others saw her. Achilles was seized with wonder, and turned around, and immediately recognized Pallas Athene.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1
The movie where everyone dies except Sean Bean.
I wish he would have gotten a sequel with The Odyssey.
You’ll get the Armand Assante miniseries and LIKE IT!
I’m glad I’m not the only one that watched that in their high school lit class.
Why is Armand Assante always puckering his lips??
Because it's the LAW!!
I’m still holding out hope for an HBO type miniseries on The Odyssey. Would be perfect
I saw Ronin well after the whole Sean Bean always dies meme. The amount of times I was like "yeah this is it"... By the end of that movie I had Bean Balls. It's like blue balls but it's what happens when you watch a movie like Ronin waiting for Sean Bean to die, but instead you get cock teased nonstop because his character is pretty much expected to die in every single scene he's in just by nature of how he's written and the danger... BUT SOMEHOW.....
It's the implication that gets you.
What a great movie. The scene with "the boat house at Hereford" is chef's kiss
Orlando Bloom lives in the extended edition
And in the regular version.
But however, not in the original version. During the war, Paris killed Achilles by shooting his heel with a poisoned arrow. Late in the war, Paris was killed by Philoctetes.
And my bow.
Achilles killing that giant at the start of the movie was epic.
I've always loved the line he says to the kid who brings him his shield. Boy: "They say you can't be killed" Achilles: "Well, I wouldn't be bothering with a shield then, would I?"
Boy: "I would be scared to fight that giant." Achilles: "That's why no one will remember your name." Damn son.
Straight up murdered that boy by words!
Achilles’ first victim of the movie
That was the sack of wine
And that ass asleep in his tent
r/murderedbywords
Agamemnon: Perhaps we should have our war tomorrow, when you're better rested. I should have you whipped for your impudence! Achilles: Perhaps you should fight him.
Imagine a king who fights his own battles. Wouldn't that be a sight? Evergreen observation.
Best line in the movie.
this movie is full of banger lines out of Achilles, Pitt *nails* a man who believes he is the gods' instrument on earth and has a destiny
Interestingly Saul, the first king of Israel was selected to be king due to his prowess in battle and good looks. When he was older and a practiced politician he was less heroic and adventurous and relied on a shepherd to slay the giant if the philistines. He would eventually come to fear that shepherd would take the throne from him, and he was correct.
Of all the warlords loved by the gods, I hate him the most.
What *is* that kids name? Actor or the character Found it: >Jacob Smith ... Messenger Boy
How effortless that kill was gives you an idea what calibur of fighter Hector was. It only makes this scene more epic.
Achilles tries the same move on Hector in this scene, but Hector blocks it. Also, for most of the fight Hector is the aggressor, and Achilles is the one backing up and defending. Even though you can tell Hector knows he has no chance going into it, but he knows keeping Achilles from being aggressive is the only possible strategy he has.
> Achilles tries the same move on Hector in this scene, but Hector blocks it. Twice! Once with the spear and once with the sword.
I mean, putting aside the nitpicky stuff of 'that's not how you really fight with those weapons' and whatnot, for my money the fight was actually over at 2:34 in the video and the rest is just playing with his food. The sequence that starts at 2:24 and ends at 2:34 begins with Hector already on the backfoot coming in and attacking wide outside the line again and again but the way Achilles holds the center calmly and even lets Hector get as close as he did without ever faltering or even respecting his offensive options is so utterly dominant the rest is a foregone conclusion.
For how bad Hollywood is at "that's not how you fight with those weapons" (I cringed SO hard at Wednesday and Bianca's duel because they already showed in the *same fucking scene* they know what fencing looks like), this was pretty damn reasonable. You don't normally see accurate representations of what fighting with a spear looks like in Hollywood, because they aren't flashy weapons with big swinging arcs like you get with big fantasy swords. This comes as close as you can get while still giving Hollywood what it wants.
> You don't normally see accurate representations of what fighting with a spear looks like in Hollywood, because they aren't flashy weapons with big swinging arcs like you get with big fantasy swords. It's a brutal, confusing mess of bodies and blood. Just look at "hollywood" fights and and actual brawl. In real life you're not entering a fight and taking on multiple people, executing your punches and blocks perfectly. You're going to be desperately groping and throwing punches as you gasp for air and barely keep yourself standing after a minute or two. Shit sucks in reality, and they ignore the "best" part of a fight; recovering, which can take awhile depending on how bad you overestimated your abilities. Especially larger battles. There was no big dash of both armies crunching together or stopping just before and swinging like you see in Lord of the Rings, for example. It was a careful dance of each side getting close than executing poking/lunging attacks back and forth until a large group of either side turned/ran. More like two scared schoolkids fighting than the dramatic, theatrical stuff you see in movies. You know what constituted as a "good soldier" back then? Wasn't skill, being a good soldier basically came down to following orders, and not turning and running when half the people next to you get eviscerated. That was largely the deciding factor of who "won", was simply who could stand more truama/deaths before calling it quits and saying "Nah, fuck that" and getting killed as they run. If you want some good content on the realities of combat and such in history, Dan Carlin and Lions Led by Donkeys are good for listening. Plenty of good books out there too.
*The King* on Netflix had a really good representation of fighting in battles I felt. It's exactly as you describe, just a big hot mess.
That final battle scene is so brutal and chaotic. I love it
For all its faults in later seasons, Game of Throne's Battle of the Bastards was a damn near perfect representation of what I imagine a real medieval battle would've been.
Spoken like a true hoplite.
For sure. The choreography of that fight is great.
You mean Immorten Joe's son?
I guess he was just getting ready for Game of Thrones because I had no idea David Benioff wrote it.
Well Homer wrote it he just interpreted it
D'oh!
At least Homer finished his books.
To be fair he's had nearly 3000 years.
\> impregnable walls \> puts army and cavalry on the unprotected side Sounds familiar.
Agamemnon even calls them out on it on screen. "I see you've chosen not to hide behind your walls. Very valiant of you. Ill-advised... but valiant."
The problem with walled fortifications is that while the enemy cannot get in, neither can food and water. Water, maybe there’s a well inside the fort, but food is definitely limited. So if you just turtle up, the clock starts ticking on you, while the enemy just needs to put a piquet on your fort and can go ham on your countryside. Better to meet the enemy army in the field, supported by the fort. It gives your wounded a safe place to retreat to during the fight, and if things start to go badly, you can retreat in good order back into the fort and save your army from complete destruction. Meanwhile, the enemy cannot replace every casualty you inflict - and if he routs, he has no safe place to recover. Battles for forts are won or lost outside the walls.
A good tactic is to have reinforcements to encircle the beseigers, and always leave space for them to escape. I believe Ceasar has a number of times where he was able to turn the beseigers into the besieged this way. Often though, ancient fortifications are made around a water source to outlast seiges. Food remains a problem for sure.
Benioff can write shit if he doesnt have material to copy. See the last seasons of gamemof thrones for an example.
> [Achilles killing that giant at the start of the movie was epic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z5UKystdZg)
Loved this scene also because in the Iliad, one of Homer's epithets for Achilles is "swift-footed".
In college, anytime something was fucking with us and we wanted to joke about bringing in the big guns to deal with it we’d always go “boagRIUUUUUUS!!!!”
BOAGRIUS!!!!!!!!
"There are no pacts between lions and men" "oh? In that case, archers!"
Absolutely love the film, but this was my main gripe with that scene too lol. Like “ok we’ll have our fight but if you try to desecrate the body of the goddamned PRINCE, my archers gonna arch ya, obviously”
Feel like they could have easily solved that by not fighting right next to the walls. Fight further back. Fire some arrows that miss. Problem solved.
Can we talk about the beach landing though? Atrocious from a historical standpoint. It's literally Saving Private Ryan circa 1250 BCE.
Yeah, contested landings weren't really a thing back then, you'd just land somewhere else and walk. It's not like the city you're going to besiege is gonna run away.
There are a number of historical accounts of contested landings. Ships were slow and landing points few, armies often shadowed armada to try and prevent them landing or attack them while they did so.
This is such a reddit thread. One person says landings weren't a thing in that time. Another person says there are a number of historical accounts. The rest of the redditors have no idea but that wont stop most of them from picking a side.
Actually no, disagreements on reddit don't actually happen. It's just a common myth with no basis in reality.
It wasn't just that. It's the Trojans going down a steep hill to attack the Greeks instead of just sitting on the high ground. The use of fire arrows. And the absolute worst is all the giant wooden stakes thrown randomly about
Darius I would like a word, as would Aeschylus and his brother, Cynegeirus. At the Battle of Marathon the Greeks not only opposed the Persians’ landing, they opposed their ships _leaving_. Cynegeirus was killed when he waded into the water and took hold of a Persian boat to drag it back onto the beach.
Ancient greek had their own code of honor, Arête, and just sniping Achilles in this situation would have run against that. According to Iliad, Hector knew he would die at Achilles hand, Achilles knew his choices were to kill Hector and then die himself, or live very long life but without any glory.
The point was that the king of Troy was an honorable man, while everyone else wasn’t. Steep price for honor.
HECTOOOOOOOR!!!!!
HECTAAAAARRRRRR!!!!
TETSUOOOOO
KANAEDAAAA
I worked with a guy named Hector for a long time and this is how I would greet him every day. In retrospect I am sure it got old after a while but damn if I didn't milk it for all its worth.
There is literally no one in this thread that isn't extremely proud of you for this.
This is my go-to example where the director's cut made a huge improvement (ok maybe it's Kingdom of Heaven but this is a close second). I felt the theatrical version was just a dumb action flick, and I could see how some would think the director's cut is a little too slow paced, but I just love the feel for the character development... you really start to feel for the characters and their losses (except Paris, he's a little bitch)
"I am Ajax, breaker of stones! Look upon me and despair!" There are other parts with Odysseus, but that one part that stuck with me. Highly recommend the director's cut.
how much time does it add ? Never thought to check if Troy had one. I did see the Kingdoms though and the difference was huge.
Adds about 33 minutes to the film.
Good lord I need to find this
It certainly adds more depth, but from watching the theatrical too many times; the score is off pace and really takes me out of the moment
The score of the director’s cut is an abomination. I was so mad during several scenes that were ruined simply due to that.
Glad I’m not the only one. The new scenes are really great but that score. Just ugh. Not good
The directors cut ruins the score though. It's jarring. The music is superb in the original and they butcher it in the extended.
When this came out it was one of the best choreographed 1v1 fights I'd ever seen in a movie.
What makes this fight unique for me is that they show fatigue. Hector ultimately loses because he gasses and becomes sloppy while Achilles stamina holds. That's how fights work in real world. Most movies just show characters with infinite cardio which is just so unrealistic.
I do like that they took the time to show Achilles finally take a winded breath for maybe one of the first fights in his life.
“Your son was the best I’ve fought”
[Rob Roy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERmM5l2ceoY) uses that to stellar effect in its final duel. Liam Neeson looks totally gassed by the end.
The man is no dunce with a blade.
Great movie too. A personal favorite.
The King on Netflix has some brutal fights like this. Guys in full plate armor just gassed on the ground stabbing or smashing each other in the face however they can.
The King was a surprisingly good movie. Had heard nothing about it in advance but loved it; some fantastic performances too.
I agree, but that fall and ankle twist Hector took definitely didn't help. Your comment re-windedness is cogent too. Overall what makes the fight great is that there's a clear arc to it, and definitely a back-and-forth rather than a straight up Achilles stomp. For a minute, it's clear that Hector's got the upper hand. He manages to get the graze in on Achilles. Achilles looks rattled for a moment, right before they cut back to O'Toole's Priam verging on a smile as he sees his son has a chance. Not for long, though, as when Hector tries to push his momentum, Achilles manages to knock him to the ground. You can see Hector's ankle twist on that rock (btw, how great is Eric Bana's physical acting, here?), and it's at that point you can tell it's over. Hector hobbles over to grab the broken spear point, while also struggling to get back on his feet. The rest of the fight, Hector is both winded and less agile due to his ankle, it does him in. What a great fight in an otherwise sorta schlocky movie.
A fantastic example of this honestly is the legendary [Wheels on Meals fight](https://youtu.be/Zlwh8x7bygk) between Jackie Chan and Benny the Jet. I posted lower down that my favorite fight on screen was a different Jackie Chan fight, but I was reminded of this one while hunting through YouTube and definitely want to change my answer.
His jump stab move with the spear has been copied in other movies and games. Think the last time I saw it was the new God of War. Every time I see it done it reminds me of Troy.
Superman stab!
I personally really liked the over-the-shoulder spear resting in the dip in the shield, as well as when he switched stances and rotated the shield with crisp sound. Was also pretty cool to realize that they had the swords sheathed behind the shields for once the spears broke.
I have a psvr and in Swordsman you can wield a sword and shield. Resting the sword on the shield and using your sword like a pool stick is very satisfying.
Still is yoooo
The drum beat definitely made it more epic
Feels like they watched some crouching tiger hidden dragon fights and said "let's do that, but in greece".
It’s a good scene, but let’s put some respect on CTHD. This is nowhere near the technical level.
Every time I watch that fight, I always pray I've slipped into a parallel universe where Hector wins.
Sorry, the gods decided his fate. He had no chance. According to the poem anyway.
If only he had have gone for the heel
In the Illiad, the Achilles heel is not a thing. Achilles doesn't even die in the Illiad. It's only predicted that he will die, with no mention to his heel that didn't get dunked into the Styx, that myth came around much later way after the Illiad and gets retroactively applied.
[Reddit's attitude towards consumers has been increasingly hostile as they approach IPO. I'm not interested in using their site anymore, nor do I wish to leave my old comments as content for them.]
You like the regular old Iliad then. Don't know why you are suggesting without the later Achillies heel myth that suddenly the rest of the mystical stuff disappears. For the Illiad is loaded with the Gods constantly appearing and intervening, alongside all sorts of magic. All that is fundamental to the Illiad unlike the Achillies heel myth which was again a later addition not found in the Illiad proper.
He went for it a bunch of different times, looks like he hit it once but it was armored
Ah yes, armor has a great way of protecting one’s soft spots.
That’s why I’m wearing a codpiece
Yeah its weird. We KNOW Achilles wins, but we can't help but root for Hector anyway.
It's interesting that this movie made you feel this way, my most recent exposure to the Iliad was the book Song of Achilles so when I watch this fight I'm just wanting Achilles to avenge Patroclus
I was and always be rooting for Achilles. Hector can eat s&@t, die, and wander the underworld without eyes, tong and ears.
It's supposed to be that way. Hector is human and relatable (this is true for the Iliad and its good translations too). Achilles for most of the story is more or less a monster. But the story is about Achilles because he undergoes character progression with the death of Patroclus and Hector. You'll always root for Hector, but he had to die.
hoo boy don't let me tell you what happens to andromache and astyanax after.
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After the Trojan War, following Hector's murder by Achilles and the city's capture and sacking by the Greeks, the Greek herald Talthybius informed her of the plan to kill Astyanax, her son by Hector, by throwing him from the city walls. This act was carried out by Neoptolemus who then took Andromache as a concubine and Hector's brother, Helenus, as a slave. By Neoptolemus, she was the mother of Molossus, and according to Pausanias, of Pielus and Pergamus. When Neoptolemus died, Andromache married Helenus and became Queen of Epirus. Pausanias also implies that Helenus' son, Cestrinus, was by Andromache. In Epirus Andromache faithfully continued to make offerings at Hector’s cenotaph. Andromache eventually went to live with her youngest son, Pergamus in Pergamum, where she died of old age For greek tragedies this can be a somewhat happy ending
Amazing how similar Greek Tragedies are to Australian Christmas gatherings once Uncle Merv gets on the Tinnies.
Nice
Uncle Merv bringing a slab of Toohey's to the family Christmas.
[Wtf?](http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/852/286/9ac.jpg)
I think Greek mythology is what eventually led to names being shortened and simplified. We have the visionary Joe from Crete to thank for his infinite wisdom and farsightedness.
The *Troy* drinking game: Take a drink every time: - Someone yells another person’s name - Someone says “the gods” - Someone with a name dies - Achilles insults someone - Paris is a little bitch
If I had to drink whenever Paris is a little bitch, I couldn't set my cup down until he was off screen.
Orlando Bloom really was a great choice for that. It’s especially awesome because he shows in Kingdom of Heaven that he is not a little bitch.
Roundabout way to call Legolas a bitch, homie.
What do your bitch eyes see?
I never thought I'd die fighting side by side with a bitch.
That still only counts as one, bitch
He's great in kingdom of heaven
I love the director's cut and I can totally see why Ridley Scott put it out.
The directors cut is the only cut of that movie. The theatrical release was a joke. They cut out the entire arc about the son, making the mother’s arc not make sense
Director’s cut edition additions: -every time you see bare butt or b00bs -every time a baby is thrown into a burning building
How many babies are thrown into burning buildings?
Enough…
Chug your entire glass when you hear, "YOU SACK OF WINE!"
[Drink](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIOMXWIF95w)
Someone with a name dies might be too much. Are we talking has a name in the credits? Everybody has a name... I can't drink 1000+ beers tonight
Do you think the actors died?
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It's an older reference Sir, but it checks out.
In the book Hector runs away and Achilles chases him around Troy multiple times.
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Would be cooler if there wasn't a cut between every single move.
I was always super obsessed with the Morpheus vs Neo fight in the matrix due to how long the shots are in that film. Western films just started going wild with the cuts in the early 2000s.
Somebody cue the clip of Liam Neeson jumping over a fence!
I'm gonna do the opposite and link Liam Neeson being awesome in [this excellent fight scene from Rob Roy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERmM5l2ceoY).
[Okay!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3axtK6iI7lw)
Sorry. The editor charges per-cut.
[Jackie Chan: editing action](https://youtu.be/Z1PCtIaM_GQ?t=300)
Exactly. It's so ludicrously choppy. The choreography is amazing, but they ruin it with 200 different angles in 1 minute.
Yeah, the choreography is cool but it's so chopped up it's really hard to connect. You barely ever get to see a move in full. I also wish they'd pull the camera back just two feet so we could see their full bodies move. Closeups are fine but their full body shots are weirdly cut off at the top.
Would highly recommend anyone to read “The song of Achilles” if this scratched a Greek itch
Definitely the Iliad and Odyssey for those new to the epic. Speaking as a dude who’s listened to the audiobook of SoA on repeat more times than I can count, the book leans more as a Greek BL romance, some people may not be so into that focus especially if they aren’t privy to Homer’s work. Regardless I love SoA as I found it during my coming out around the pandemic. I’m reading the Odyssey right now and love getting to know more about Odysseus’ struggles post Troy.
I’ll trade you. Read David Gemmel’s Troy trilogy. Thank me later.
You sack of wine!
Love this movie, I can remember watching it in theaters. Was sitting so far forward in my seat, could feel my heart pounding.
I remember seeing this in theaters and it gave me anxiety. I was rooting for Hector, but knew his ass was grass. Lmao.
Bana!
Brad Pitt and Eric Bana had an agreement that they’d pay $50 every tap and $100 for each big hit that was accidental. I guess Brad owed like $750 by the end of the shoot. Such a good fight scene!
I genuinely try not to get too hung up on battle scenes being realistic looking. Fights in performances are there to dazzle and look cool, it's a different goal, so I can understand there being things that don't make sense in a real fight but are there for style. But Achilles fighting for 12 seconds (I measured) with his shield held behind his back is for me taking the corpse of verisimilitude and doing the fuckin Macarena on top of it.
The purpose of the fights is to tell the story; Achilles is arrogant, prideful, angry. He is taunting a weak opponent who we have come to like and in a way he is taunting the audience. Has he no shame? Has he no honor? Hector treats him with dignity and Achilles treats him like dirt. We also have the "what ifs", in the movie we don't see magic or gods but we know the characters believe in them. They also say Achilles is invincible, and at times he says he isn't but he often acts as though he is. So we are left wondering, can be really be killed? In the end we see he can, stumbling about Troy as it burns, his one redeeming quality isn't enough to save him.
>He is taunting a weak opponent who we have come to like I chafe at this, though I agree with your wider point. Both in the movie and the source material, Hector isn't a "weak" opponent. He's the greatest warrior of Troy, surpassing all other Greeks/Hellenes/Achaeans. Except, of course, Achilles. It's not that Hector's weak, it's just that Achilles, for all his pride, is just leagues above any other mortal.
Achilles has that Cristiano Ronaldo in his prime vibe, prideful as fuck, but goddamn does he back it up
The comments here are surprisingly favorable, for a movie I remember being pretty widely mocked at the time. Suspension of disbelief can only carry you so far, and it isn't far enough for this ridiculous choreography.
Literally every time either Hector or Achilles attacks, whatever they're holding in their other hand is at their side or behind their back.
It kind of fits if you think that Achilles was styling on him on purpose to show dominance, he was that arrogant, after all.
This film was clearly made to make sense with no supernatural stuff going on. Fighting like that is just gonna get you killed in the real world, and it doesn't matter how otherwise skilled you are. As I said, I acknowledge that it makes sense for film fights to involve stuff that you wouldn't do in a real fight, but looks cool. For me, that pushes that line so far that it stops me from enjoying the scene, as I can no longer suspend disbelief.
I love it but the bit where the camera moves past a still sword and it makes the *schwing* noise is SO fucking funny and silly. I mean it's a silly fun movie anyway but they must have been laughing their asses off in the editing booths when they did that.
The amount of camera cuts in this fight is absurd.
Troy was one of David Benioff's first scripts. If you wondered what happened to GoT after they ran out of GRRM material, this should shed some light.
You sack of wine!
Love how Brad Pitt just goes for it lol
I don't understand what you mean by this
My guess is he is saying while the action of Troy was good, the story and script itself was pretty poor. I am guessing. Not agreeing. Ive never seen Troy
I saw it in theaters with a group of nerdy teenage boys and we uniformly panned the stilted dialogue at the time. One of my high school's frequent substitute teachers was in the audience. When she was covering my class the next week, I asked her how she liked it, because we thought the action was fun but everything else was pretty wooden and the dialogue sucked. She immediately defended it with, "well if you think about it, that's probably how they actually talked back in ancient times."
What does this even mean lol
They’re like 40% bare skin and yet both killing blows are through the armor Fuckin movies man
If I remember correctly, the poem has Hector wearing Achilles’ armour which he had stripped from Patroclus. Achilles knows that the one weak spot in the armour is at the base of the neck where there is a small notch, and throws his spear so it punctures through. Hector dies, chocking on blood and pleading for his body to be returned to his father.
uh... why the fuck does he keep using the inside of the shield to perry?
cause cool
I find this fight like most modern action fights… it’s all cut up and edited together so you can’t really get a look at the fight overall.
Probably looks like crap unedited, settings missing by miles, unathletic dudes, etc. Ever seen a fight scene on network tv? That's what they look like unedited
This is not a good fight scene. The choreography is really well done and cool but the constant cuts in the editing let you know the actors were only splicing one or two moves at a time and then calling cut. It probably took days if not weeks to film this fight. https://youtu.be/QLL9plgz0pg These guys are throwing 5, 6, 7 moves together with no cuts. Sure they are using strings and baby powder and other special effects but the choreography and stunt work is phenomenal.
Bana and Pitt really deserve some kudos for giving it their all here. Terrific work. I remember seeing the movie in cinemas and while it didn’t quite hit the heights I’d hoped it would, this fight was standout scene in action movies that year.
One of the best part is missing though: Achilles screaming hector over and over again
This fight was awesome for sure, but the fight scene that really stuck with me was when Paris is getting was getting dominated in the duel before Hector steps in. It is hard to imagine anything in life being that terrifying.
Hector wife plays superbly in that scene at 1:37. You really feel the fear growing on her when she gets that it won't end well for her husband just by witnessing the first moves of Achilles. I wonder how actors manage to perform in such accurate skill. Do they train in front of a coach ?
on a cinematic view, i dont like it, way too much cut. its borderline epileptic. I would rather see the action lasting a bit longer before to switch to another angle
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Casting an actor with long straight blonde hair for an ancient Greek hero always irked me, but turns out that Achilles is described as having fair/tawny/blonde hair in the Illiad: > Grief came upon the son of Peleus, and within his shaggy breast his heart was divided, whether he should draw his sharp sword from beside his thigh, [190] and break up the assembly, and slay the son of Atreus, or stay his anger and curb his spirit. While he pondered this in mind and heart, and was drawing from its sheath his great sword, Athene came from heaven. The white-armed goddess Hera had sent her forth, [195] for in her heart she loved and cared for both men alike. She stood behind him, and seized the son of Peleus **by his fair hair,** appearing to him alone. No one of the others saw her. Achilles was seized with wonder, and turned around, and immediately recognized Pallas Athene. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1
I'm happy for you that you liked this, but personally I thought it has aged poorly and didn't do anything for me.
I'll see your Troy and raise you the sword fight from Rob Roy.