Or in a middle seat between a couple 350 pounders like I was this weekend. Never buying a cheap ticket with them again. First come first serve seating really shits on those last in the boarding line.
Southwest Airlines exists because they took the turnaround time on an airplane from an hour and twenty minutes down to 40 minutes.
That's it.
The reason their boarding process historically worked like it did for them was because it impacted their turnaround times. No assigned seating is more efficient.
Unless Standard seating gets seated first, this doesn't help their efficiency gain. In fact, it makes them like every other airline and they lose efficiency.
Sell.
I had a 6:05 out of ATL on southwest. I got to the airport before TSA even opened. Still almost missed the flight because of those chuckle fucks. And we trust these people to find bombs and other weapons? Lol
TSA: "Let me take this possible bomb threat [water] and *carefully* place it in this public receptacle [trash can] with the other bombs [more water, some lotion]"
I think people exploiting preboard has basically broken their business model so they had to try something. You can just say you need to preboard and you can get the best seats ahead of the people paying top price and frequent flyers.
That and paying for earlier boarding has killed it. You can check in right at the 24hr mark before your flight and be C10. Then since no one checks bags, good luck getting your carry on in the cabin. Plus you have a bunch of dickwads that will have one person get the priority boarding then try to save 5 seats…. Not that they often get their way, but it does slow things down as those people get in arguments with passengers and flight attendants.
My 0.02, eliminate the priority boarding, reduce the carry on size and tell people ahead of time if you try to save a seat, you will be kicked off the flight.
I’ve never seen anyone relinquish saved seats. Meaning they “hold” them until the rest of their party arrives, and that’s that. People grumble, but move along.
Now people trying to hold their middle seat on a full flight just to hopefully not sit next to someone gets called out.
I’ve flown SW many, many times a year for 8+ years with the companion pass, and I’ve never had an issue with check-in placement. If you’re truly right on the 24hr mark, you’re getting in the B’s. Today I was A40 with standard check-in on an entirely full flight.
Last flight I had was with a bunch of sports teams. Saved seats were going on all over the place. Multiple people just sat down and flight attendants were harping at them all the while. That might have been an extreme case, that broke people, but it needs to be punished. It slows down seating which is the whole point of open seating. Want to sit next your bud, sick with them or fly United.
With the C10 thing, it’s happened a few times in the last 3-4 months, where I have been very late Bs or early Cs even 24 hours ahead. I suspect this could be route dependent. If flights are full of regular fliers that know to pay extra for premium or check in at 24hr on the nose, then this is what happens.
Agreed, that would be wildly frustrating, but there’s always those couple of bad experiences on every airline. I fly enough United flights in addition to SW to have seen some annoying shit there too, but no airline is perfect.
And yes, my A40 example is an extreme in itself. I’m usually early B’s and more often late B’s than A. You’re exactly right that it depends on how many people happen to have or purchase early bird check-in.
Another annoying thing is the family boarding where you could end up with B1, but watch seemingly half the plane board during family boarding because of a couple toddlers.
The companion pass still makes flying SW an unreal value, so it’d have to absolutely suck for me not to fly it, and SW is still pretty solid on most trips.
Yes, seen those family boardings many times. We used to take advantage of them back when our kids where little, but god damn, it seems to get abused these days. It will be like one 4 year old and family of 8 boards….
We are taking advantage of the companion pass now too. Pretty nice deal alright.
If 15 people pay more to go and save a row of seats for their family/friends, why is that wrong? Multiple rows would be BS, but other than being mildly annoyed, I’ve never had a real issue with people who hold a row. Now hopefully your family members are still in B or something. If they’re C25, that’s probably going to piss some people off.
It sounds like it will still work the same though, but instead of getting a boarding group assignment based on checkin time, it is assigned by which 1/3 of the plane you are in.
I imaging it would not change turnaround.
I always board last sit in the back of the pane anyway. Overall I spend less time on the plane, and statistically the back of the plane is the safest in a crash.
Also, there is no disadvantage to seating standard first, since the forward sections are still reserved. And I know people will yell "overhead storage"
But even on full flights, they almost never need to gate-check carryons since 737s have ample storage.
Will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Their management has made a lot of good decisions over the years so I think this either boosts revenue, or it flops and they revert back. In general Southwest is the only airline stock I’d ever consider holding. They have the same flight traffic volume as the other big carriers while only flying to half as many destinations, and all using the same type of aircraft.
Basically, they know their customers and provide an optimized and efficient experience. With both JetBlue and Spirit on shaky legs right now, there’s a lot of domestic air travel volume that could be going up for grabs, and Southwest is positioned well to capitalize.
Southwest sucks and I regret having spent a small fortune with them for business travel. At first it was charming to have the no change fees, free bags, low prices, etc. even the cattle call wasn’t that bad.
I got fucked in the ‘22-‘23 winter storm when they were down for weeks while everyone else was back up and running. That’s when I realized United and delta are priced equally, except that provide a far better experience.
Basically all the advantages they offered ten years ago are now offered by all airlines.
They don’t provide a far better experience. Not at all. Last week I was flying out to Miami and flight was delayed, we were boarded. We were then taken out of plane, meaning plane is useless so new plane had to come, delayed literally 9 hours. Zero compensation. You could have changed flights for next day but no hotel compensation etc. So yeah. Every airline is the same breed. They don’t care even if you fly business and accumulate hundreds of thousands of points a year. So if you have money fly private. That is the only solution.
Delays are one thing, but if you fly a lot for work you can get a ton of other benefits, from nicer seats, better meals, priority service on checked luggage etc. With southwest you’re always part of the cattle call but I guess you can get an A1-A15 to make you feel better.
I agree with you. I fly SW with the companion pass most of the time with my SO for personal travel, but in exclusive to United for work. I had Premiere Gold for a few years, so getting the SA Gold lounge access, free premium economy seating at booking, and United Club for international trips was nice. Nothing like that for SW.
Plus, then I had a bunch of UA points for international trips.
Southwest was great when they were actually cheaper. But their price advantage is long gone, now you just pay the same to sit next to a bunch of families from Iowa trying to go to Disney world
Southwest was great when they were actually cheaper. But their price advantage is long gone, now you just pay the same to sit next to a bunch of families from Iowa trying to go to Disney world
>With that in mind, Southwest is considering breaking the cabin into three parts:
>* The front third of the plane would be branded as Premium/Premier
* The middle third of the plane would be branded as Select (exit row seats would still be considered Premium/Premier, if they fall in this zone)
* The back third of the plane would be branded as Standard
They should have taken a page out of the playbook of the USDA and used Prime, Choice, and Select.
I don't know but I will share this; I never buy airlines, fashion, retail or restaurants for the most part. I find them too cyclical, too volatile and me too out of touch with trends to invest in. Southwest was one of my favorite airlines to fly. I hope they recover.
I sold my bag at a few K loss....been in it too long and fuck it...put that all into Nvidia so we'll see how we go.
Used to love LUV, but between their own fuck ups and Boeings, the trapdoor of bad news just hasn't stopped for 2 years.
Good luck I'm out that bish
As a regular southwest customer i will never pay the extra fee above the base price. Imagine not knowing your customer base whatsoever. They are already only eeking out sales above other airlines by being only slightly cheaper.
Airlines are cutting corners on safety, raising fees and prices, cutting customer service, making seating space less- all in the name of shareholder and ceo profits. That all sounds bullish to me.
I hope this doesn’t count as insider trading, but I was at a trade show recently and there were a lot of Southwest guys huddled around a booth that had a new design that lets you stack two sets of seats vertically in a 737. Very bullish!
Doesn’t matter how many physical seats you shove in there, as peoples physical weights are what matter. Southwests small 73’s seat 143 and their larger 73’s seat 175. That’s pretty much the max for flesh, bags, and fuel to limit distances flown due to weight. Flight planning already gets tight with current full loads and any added weather alternate diversions planned.
Bullish ozempic though.
Correct and with the FAA increasing the average passenger weight, Southwest has to operate many flights from hot climates with a few seats unsold on their MAX aircraft. The stacked seats will never be a thing unless larger engines are outfitted, which I doubt is happening. Would also be an egress nightmare with anyone remotely disabled.
Might not be able to fit more people but you might be able to squish the poors into a smaller portion of the plane (probably some load distribution to consider) and then give the premium sections more space and charge more for those seats.
The CEO did mention recently trying to generate more income so this would be a way to do it. The only problem is with how much they’ve spent trying to improve their existing boarding process to milk every second, it seems wild they would move to a slower traditional boarding structure.
I don’t see this as a thing unless they decide to expand into airbus models. The 737s are all uniform for a reason and this kind of change would cause problem from maintenance, boarding, and even crew training possibly (minor deviations but still there depending on if they need to sac a row for more space in the premium side).
You could do this on a 321 and since it would be brand new, you wouldn’t ruin your existing behemoth.
You do understand that they don’t just arbitrarily “generate revenue” right? That’s predicated on the idea that people actually give them money for those considerations. Combined with the new horrible seats and the cataclysmic changes suggested here - I’m expecting a ‘Delta overhauling Sky Miles’ sort of response.
Southwest is the cattle car of America where in irrelevant parts of the country they are the Delta. They generate revenue by flying competitively through parts of the country no one else really wants to. DAL, BWI, MDW, etc with a low cost single structure model. When the choice is Southwest or Spirit… I mean you’re kind of stuck here.
The model itself isn’t extendable past a certain point. You can’t drive dollars without creating some more exclusivity of the product somehow. They’ve milked the system for all they can with their uniformity and oil hedging.
Delta and American aren’t airlines really, they are credit card point companies they happen to fly planes now. Delta has figured out how to milk every step of the travel process to create a premium experience option that people want to pay for. United went a different direction and figured out how to get back to international flying.
Southwest doesn’t have any more tools with their existing layout to extract money unless they give up the free bags. They’ve basically hit a wall. Now are no assigned seats as sacred as the Costco hotdog… That’s the real question.
Better opportunities out there than airlines imo. Tried w AAL and luv, sold both for very moderate gains. Glad I got out of AAL around 15 earlier this year.
$LUV is the only stock I bought somewhat near peak covid crash, back in May/June 2020, that is worth less now than it was then without doing any type of split in between. At the time I bought, they had one of the largest open orders for, and had already taken delivery of, significant number of Boeing 737 Max series aircraft. That was one of only 2 or 3 models in Southwest's entire fleet, and was grounded for some of 2019 until Christmas travel season of 2020, 6+ months after I bought shares. In fact, I bought because I thought gosh, any airline that doesnt go bankrupt from this, can only go up! And it did for quite a while, but now its reversed all gains, and I'm down a little over 18%. My cost basis, 100% of which was purchased between May 1, 2020 and June 1, 2020, was $33.85, and that's down $6.10 per share as of a few minutes ago.
So, I bought when international travel to US was completely closed, domestic travel was severely restricted and in low demand, and a large portion of their fleet was grounded for safety reasons. And the share price is currently down nearly 20% between then and today without any of those obstacles still in play, for the most part (some specific Max series are grounded again now based on specific interior options and doors blowing off, but I don't think any of theirs are still grounded because they either didnt have that interior option or complied with the ADs quickly). I'm not sure what to make of that other than to say they are either stupidly undervalued right now, or they're in super bad shape and heading in the wrong direction as a company to have fallen so much between June 1, 2020 and now. I'm not sure which it is, but I strongly suspect the latter is far more likely.
They're still having worldwide meltdowns and cancellations due to their outdated IT systems that manage scheduling and ticketing, and I've yet to hear any scuttlebutt about them doing a thing to replace or upgrade them, in any reasonable effort to prevent or even mitigate the mass catastrophic failures that have happened 2 or 3 times now in the last 18 months that grounded most of their fleet for 1 to 3 days at a time, stranding thousands of passengers each time.
They're also progressively abandoning their niche market and the advantage they once had. They devalued their miles and frequent flyer programs 2 or 3 times each in the last few years, now are spit balling fee-added reserved seating. All 3 legacy domestics have done away with change fees since covid, which was formerly a big advantage of Southwest, and they're really about one baggage fee away from becoming the same as the legacy domestic carriers, but with an older, all Boeing fleet which are becoming irrationally but widely feared by a lot of the consumer market, a lower level of service compared to the domestics, and no first class or real food options. Oh, and it's extremely notable that whereas I used to regularly see their airfare at 35-50% of the price of legacy carriers, I now see them frequently at 100-125% of a legacy carrier price, so another huge jump in the wrong direction there. Can't see any of that working out real well for them long term, so I'll be holding my very tiny bag just to see if I can get out at less of a loss, and get out if or when the getting is good. In fact now that this post made me type this all out loud, I'll probably buy a couple NTM long puts, too, if the premiums are reasonable.
Southwest was a good company because they ran more efficiently than other airlines, and offered the consumer a different, slightly reduced experience for a way better ticket price, with significantly more flexibility, all without nickel and diming folks to death, but almost nothing that made them standout and or appeal to that enormous target demographic still exists today, or is shared with the legacy domestics. I think they're also forgetting their main demographic, and have lost their identity for the most part, in terms of who is Southwest Airlines and who is the intended Southwest Airlines customer. I see no reason they won't do significantly worse than legacy carriers going forward, unless they make drastic changes in the opposite direction of the last several, back to what made them successful. Right now, they've devolved to operating similarly to the legacy carriers, at the same or similar price points, but with a reduced level of customer service and amenities, and they seem to be moving farther in that direction. That said, they are creating a bit of a vacuum in the budget air travel market by abandoning what once made them great.
They might accidentally fall back into that vacuum once their increasingly common price increases fail gloriously and they're forced to roll back some of these changes to prevent bankruptcy, and they might also swap to an all Airbus fleet, but either and or both scenarios trend toward medium to long term bearish movement, with possible very short term rips once or twice as they spin reports on revenue from fee increases, but the king term hit to demand and business hasn't hit the reports yet, that type of thing. I'm just waiting for a short upswing to close out my very small position, probably still at a loss. Right now, they are offering a slightly worse experience than legacy carriers, at a similar or higher price in most US markets outside some specific high volume, high demand routes. That just has zero chance of long term sustainability, much less growth, in my humble opinion.
TLDR: I bought in 2020 when half their fleet was grounded, international travel was mostly prohibited, and domestic air travel was extremely restricted and in very low demand, and it's down just over 18% since then, with all those obstacles cleared. Big 🌈🐻 vibes for me.
Holy shit. It's Chad Dickens.
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This sucks. Southwest is defined by two things: quality service, especially during IRROPS (except for that one time) and rapid boarding through sit wherever. Used to be defined by being cheap too but that's gone now so yeah.
The biggest problem for Southwest is their fleet badly needs a replacement for its aging lower capacity 737-700s. They currently run a fleet of older 737-700s and larger 737-800s and their replacement 737-8 Maxes, with plans for the smaller 737-7 Max to replace the 737-700.
Unfortunately, the 737-7 Max is delayed by the FAA and Southwest dropped its plans on the 737-7 Max joining the fleet in 2024. Southwest uses a mix of low and medium capacity 737s. This fleet mix used to be at a 4:1 ratio in favor of low capacity planes but is now more like 1:1 due to 737-7 Max delays. Their 737-700 continue to age and now over half their fleet is composed of the larger capacity 737-800 and 737-8 Max because they have to use the larger 737-8 Max to replace small 737-700s. Now larger 737-8 Maxes are used on routes that were serviced by smaller 737-700s and Southwest's passenger load factor fell in 2023. I think the cabin idea Southwest is piloting in customer focus groups is patchwork solution to their fleet mix problem of having too much airplane capacity for their routes, rather than an innovative way to transform their business model. They still operate on lean point-to-point routes with a low turnaround time on a single aircraft type.
I wouldn't personally buy Southwest unless I believe they will figure out their fleet mix problem in the near term, through either 737-7 Max certification soon enough for 2025 deliveries or the acquisition of another airline with smaller, newer jets. The latter would represent a partial change in its business model if it means acquiring and adopting another aircraft type like a small Airbus or Embraer.
Business flyers would easily expense more costly seats if they are not able to fly mainline carriers up front seats…. Lots of money left on the table for them.
I don’t see the point. The international network/coverage doesn’t work out. If you only fly domestic I guess it’s whatever, but the lack of upgrades, can’t use points/credits for flying family international, etc. makes it uninteresting for me personally.
Yup, I even have the companion pass, so my SO and I fly out of MDW all the time. Actually on the Orange line coming back from MDW right now.
But I’ll fly United ORD to try to keep up status with an airline that actually gets you some perks plus has a global reach, so points can actually go towards vacations.
I haven’t flown on United since they smashed that guys face when they forcibly deplaned him. I know that was a one off, but their whole vibe doesn’t land with me.
LOVE the companion pass and that’s a big enough perk to stick with Southwest. To each their own, though.
Haven’t had any bad experiences with United, and I’ve traveled with them a bunch for work trips, but every airline is a YMMV situation these days.
Companion pass for personal trips is a major factor in flying SW, and MDW being so easy compared to ORD is an added bonus.
I used to like how quickly I can get through MDW. But once you get enough status for United’s premium or first class, you’ll never wanna sit in those SW seats again. Plus ORD has better food options though I think MDW is renovating yet again.
I live at OAK/SFO main hub. There’s no upgrades or international benefits on Southwest. I don’t know any execs or in management who fly Southwest. 🤷🏽♂️
It's not just about upgrades, it's about point to point route timings. Getting from the Bay to Austin is hard. The only legacy non stop carrier is United and they only run three routes a day and none get you there before 3 pm or let you return back after 4pm. Southwest gives you far more options. And pretending that United has a better hard or soft product than Southwest is a joke. United is literal trash domestically and internationally is even worse. Pretending that Polaris was a hybrid J/F was a farce that they've thankfully abandoned in marketing, but even ignoring that it barely qualifies as J, especially when comparing to Middle Eastern and Asian competitors.
Southwest is barely better than spirit. I’d welcome better seating, boarding, and new classes. If they could introduce first class, I’d be stoked. Even if it’s “Delta level” first.
>Southwest’s plans seem way too complicated
That summarizes my feelings perfectly. Also southwest sucks donkey dick to begin with, so... Just let me pick my fucking seat like the rest of the world, even movie theaters can do it.
I don’t like airlines. For 3 years I heard dal luv and ual, 1000 shares of each in my portfolio for the sake of theta only. I sold covered calls for years. After 3 years last month closed my positions. Even after the premiums I received from selling calls performance was not worth the work. Not buying another airline stock ever.
I read the article, however I want to just comment on my experience with southwest as it is currently.
I fucking hate southwest. It’s the airline for regards who don’t actually travel much. The entire concept of not having a seat assigned is the most ghetto thing in the world and there is no way it makes boarding quicker. I hate talking and interacting with people - especially strangers in an airport at 5;30 AM. The entire rigamorol of discussing what boarding number yoi are then jockeying for seats when clearly middle age fats traveling together sit in seat a & c to try to get the entire row… it’s fucking stupid.
The civilized male flies united and is at least platinum, preferably 1K.
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I'll be in the back with the poors
Or in a middle seat between a couple 350 pounders like I was this weekend. Never buying a cheap ticket with them again. First come first serve seating really shits on those last in the boarding line.
Did you just figure that out lol
No. With the slims
The way to make a small fortune in airline business is to start with a large fortune
I’m still bag holding SAVE so I can’t get involved with another airline…
I was going to ask why the fuck would anyone hold SAVE but then I remembered what sub I was browsing.
I was holding for the merger and trust me, I now deeply regret it.
Don’t worry….. they’ll have a merger eventually. Maybe in 2030.
Same, I'm bagholding SAVE hard. Bought right after the JBLU deal failed. I was hoping for a bounce. The dip just kept dipping.
Are you me?
I made so much money when American Airlines went bankrupt. 33 cents a share to $41.
Thanks for your contribution to my low-cost trans-continental flight....
Same. I’m just watching it nose dive lol
Waiting for that 26 to hit huh 
ugh same it's going to 0. I will curse Judge Young till my dying day.
Southwest Airlines exists because they took the turnaround time on an airplane from an hour and twenty minutes down to 40 minutes. That's it. The reason their boarding process historically worked like it did for them was because it impacted their turnaround times. No assigned seating is more efficient. Unless Standard seating gets seated first, this doesn't help their efficiency gain. In fact, it makes them like every other airline and they lose efficiency. Sell.
ABC
And then tell you "you should have arrived 3 hours early."
And then make you do a 2nd identity check at the gate because reasons that makes your flight leave 30m late anyway
ABC
I had a 6:05 out of ATL on southwest. I got to the airport before TSA even opened. Still almost missed the flight because of those chuckle fucks. And we trust these people to find bombs and other weapons? Lol TSA: "Let me take this possible bomb threat [water] and *carefully* place it in this public receptacle [trash can] with the other bombs [more water, some lotion]"
I think people exploiting preboard has basically broken their business model so they had to try something. You can just say you need to preboard and you can get the best seats ahead of the people paying top price and frequent flyers.
That and paying for earlier boarding has killed it. You can check in right at the 24hr mark before your flight and be C10. Then since no one checks bags, good luck getting your carry on in the cabin. Plus you have a bunch of dickwads that will have one person get the priority boarding then try to save 5 seats…. Not that they often get their way, but it does slow things down as those people get in arguments with passengers and flight attendants. My 0.02, eliminate the priority boarding, reduce the carry on size and tell people ahead of time if you try to save a seat, you will be kicked off the flight.
You still can't do anything about preboard without classes, you can't even ask iirc
I’ve never seen anyone relinquish saved seats. Meaning they “hold” them until the rest of their party arrives, and that’s that. People grumble, but move along. Now people trying to hold their middle seat on a full flight just to hopefully not sit next to someone gets called out. I’ve flown SW many, many times a year for 8+ years with the companion pass, and I’ve never had an issue with check-in placement. If you’re truly right on the 24hr mark, you’re getting in the B’s. Today I was A40 with standard check-in on an entirely full flight.
Last flight I had was with a bunch of sports teams. Saved seats were going on all over the place. Multiple people just sat down and flight attendants were harping at them all the while. That might have been an extreme case, that broke people, but it needs to be punished. It slows down seating which is the whole point of open seating. Want to sit next your bud, sick with them or fly United. With the C10 thing, it’s happened a few times in the last 3-4 months, where I have been very late Bs or early Cs even 24 hours ahead. I suspect this could be route dependent. If flights are full of regular fliers that know to pay extra for premium or check in at 24hr on the nose, then this is what happens.
Agreed, that would be wildly frustrating, but there’s always those couple of bad experiences on every airline. I fly enough United flights in addition to SW to have seen some annoying shit there too, but no airline is perfect. And yes, my A40 example is an extreme in itself. I’m usually early B’s and more often late B’s than A. You’re exactly right that it depends on how many people happen to have or purchase early bird check-in. Another annoying thing is the family boarding where you could end up with B1, but watch seemingly half the plane board during family boarding because of a couple toddlers. The companion pass still makes flying SW an unreal value, so it’d have to absolutely suck for me not to fly it, and SW is still pretty solid on most trips.
Yes, seen those family boardings many times. We used to take advantage of them back when our kids where little, but god damn, it seems to get abused these days. It will be like one 4 year old and family of 8 boards…. We are taking advantage of the companion pass now too. Pretty nice deal alright.
Yo I’m in A10 position boarding I’m just gonna save the row for my bros hope you don’t mind.
If 15 people pay more to go and save a row of seats for their family/friends, why is that wrong? Multiple rows would be BS, but other than being mildly annoyed, I’ve never had a real issue with people who hold a row. Now hopefully your family members are still in B or something. If they’re C25, that’s probably going to piss some people off.
Don't forget they USED to be the best fuel hedgers in the business... Now they're one step above Spirit Airlines.
It sounds like it will still work the same though, but instead of getting a boarding group assignment based on checkin time, it is assigned by which 1/3 of the plane you are in. I imaging it would not change turnaround. I always board last sit in the back of the pane anyway. Overall I spend less time on the plane, and statistically the back of the plane is the safest in a crash.
Also, there is no disadvantage to seating standard first, since the forward sections are still reserved. And I know people will yell "overhead storage" But even on full flights, they almost never need to gate-check carryons since 737s have ample storage.
Investors have poured their money in airlines for a 100 years with terrible results.
So have the taxpayers.
Will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Their management has made a lot of good decisions over the years so I think this either boosts revenue, or it flops and they revert back. In general Southwest is the only airline stock I’d ever consider holding. They have the same flight traffic volume as the other big carriers while only flying to half as many destinations, and all using the same type of aircraft. Basically, they know their customers and provide an optimized and efficient experience. With both JetBlue and Spirit on shaky legs right now, there’s a lot of domestic air travel volume that could be going up for grabs, and Southwest is positioned well to capitalize.
Southwest sucks and I regret having spent a small fortune with them for business travel. At first it was charming to have the no change fees, free bags, low prices, etc. even the cattle call wasn’t that bad. I got fucked in the ‘22-‘23 winter storm when they were down for weeks while everyone else was back up and running. That’s when I realized United and delta are priced equally, except that provide a far better experience. Basically all the advantages they offered ten years ago are now offered by all airlines.
They don’t provide a far better experience. Not at all. Last week I was flying out to Miami and flight was delayed, we were boarded. We were then taken out of plane, meaning plane is useless so new plane had to come, delayed literally 9 hours. Zero compensation. You could have changed flights for next day but no hotel compensation etc. So yeah. Every airline is the same breed. They don’t care even if you fly business and accumulate hundreds of thousands of points a year. So if you have money fly private. That is the only solution.
Delays are one thing, but if you fly a lot for work you can get a ton of other benefits, from nicer seats, better meals, priority service on checked luggage etc. With southwest you’re always part of the cattle call but I guess you can get an A1-A15 to make you feel better.
I agree with you. I fly SW with the companion pass most of the time with my SO for personal travel, but in exclusive to United for work. I had Premiere Gold for a few years, so getting the SA Gold lounge access, free premium economy seating at booking, and United Club for international trips was nice. Nothing like that for SW. Plus, then I had a bunch of UA points for international trips.
Southwest was great when they were actually cheaper. But their price advantage is long gone, now you just pay the same to sit next to a bunch of families from Iowa trying to go to Disney world
I wouldn’t fly them if I didn’t have the companion pass, but I consistently have, so it’s impossible to beat that value on most domestic flights
Southwest was great when they were actually cheaper. But their price advantage is long gone, now you just pay the same to sit next to a bunch of families from Iowa trying to go to Disney world
>With that in mind, Southwest is considering breaking the cabin into three parts: >* The front third of the plane would be branded as Premium/Premier * The middle third of the plane would be branded as Select (exit row seats would still be considered Premium/Premier, if they fall in this zone) * The back third of the plane would be branded as Standard They should have taken a page out of the playbook of the USDA and used Prime, Choice, and Select.
I don't know but I will share this; I never buy airlines, fashion, retail or restaurants for the most part. I find them too cyclical, too volatile and me too out of touch with trends to invest in. Southwest was one of my favorite airlines to fly. I hope they recover.
I sold my bag at a few K loss....been in it too long and fuck it...put that all into Nvidia so we'll see how we go. Used to love LUV, but between their own fuck ups and Boeings, the trapdoor of bad news just hasn't stopped for 2 years. Good luck I'm out that bish
As a regular southwest customer i will never pay the extra fee above the base price. Imagine not knowing your customer base whatsoever. They are already only eeking out sales above other airlines by being only slightly cheaper.
Airlines are cutting corners on safety, raising fees and prices, cutting customer service, making seating space less- all in the name of shareholder and ceo profits. That all sounds bullish to me.
I hope this doesn’t count as insider trading, but I was at a trade show recently and there were a lot of Southwest guys huddled around a booth that had a new design that lets you stack two sets of seats vertically in a 737. Very bullish!
Doesn’t matter how many physical seats you shove in there, as peoples physical weights are what matter. Southwests small 73’s seat 143 and their larger 73’s seat 175. That’s pretty much the max for flesh, bags, and fuel to limit distances flown due to weight. Flight planning already gets tight with current full loads and any added weather alternate diversions planned. Bullish ozempic though.
Correct and with the FAA increasing the average passenger weight, Southwest has to operate many flights from hot climates with a few seats unsold on their MAX aircraft. The stacked seats will never be a thing unless larger engines are outfitted, which I doubt is happening. Would also be an egress nightmare with anyone remotely disabled.
Only the poor, able bodied people will get to sit in the back with the double stacked seats and die tripping over each other in an emergency.
Might not be able to fit more people but you might be able to squish the poors into a smaller portion of the plane (probably some load distribution to consider) and then give the premium sections more space and charge more for those seats.
That was literally the business model of AirTran, which Southwest Airlines acquired and dissolved that type of seating model for their standard.
Didn’t know that, but I wouldn’t put it past them to bring it back. Companies have been known to do some stupid shit lol
Wasnt there a concern about the people stacked having bowel movements or whatnot
That's why there's a $25 upcharge to guarantee a spot in the top row
And a $25 umbrella add on for the bottom.
Bullish on my fart having about 1 foot to travel between my asshole and the nose of the unlucky schmuck behind me. 😏💨😶🌫️
Only thing I know is I booked a ticket from KCI to D.C. and southwest wanted $300 per leg. I got $300 round trip on AA.
Sounds like they’re trying to be more like frontier which is .. probably not good.
I heard when you precheck in for your seats, they are now going to ask you a riddle.
I fly weekly and will never do southwest because i have to fight for seats fuck that
Southwest is chaos these days. Hard pass
Southwest finally admitting its Spirit
The CEO did mention recently trying to generate more income so this would be a way to do it. The only problem is with how much they’ve spent trying to improve their existing boarding process to milk every second, it seems wild they would move to a slower traditional boarding structure. I don’t see this as a thing unless they decide to expand into airbus models. The 737s are all uniform for a reason and this kind of change would cause problem from maintenance, boarding, and even crew training possibly (minor deviations but still there depending on if they need to sac a row for more space in the premium side). You could do this on a 321 and since it would be brand new, you wouldn’t ruin your existing behemoth.
You do understand that they don’t just arbitrarily “generate revenue” right? That’s predicated on the idea that people actually give them money for those considerations. Combined with the new horrible seats and the cataclysmic changes suggested here - I’m expecting a ‘Delta overhauling Sky Miles’ sort of response.
Southwest is the cattle car of America where in irrelevant parts of the country they are the Delta. They generate revenue by flying competitively through parts of the country no one else really wants to. DAL, BWI, MDW, etc with a low cost single structure model. When the choice is Southwest or Spirit… I mean you’re kind of stuck here. The model itself isn’t extendable past a certain point. You can’t drive dollars without creating some more exclusivity of the product somehow. They’ve milked the system for all they can with their uniformity and oil hedging. Delta and American aren’t airlines really, they are credit card point companies they happen to fly planes now. Delta has figured out how to milk every step of the travel process to create a premium experience option that people want to pay for. United went a different direction and figured out how to get back to international flying. Southwest doesn’t have any more tools with their existing layout to extract money unless they give up the free bags. They’ve basically hit a wall. Now are no assigned seats as sacred as the Costco hotdog… That’s the real question.
fck ur mom
Buy
Bullish. I don't fly Southwest just for this reason as a tall guy.
The only ones who ever made money were the ones buying puts on 9/10/01
Better opportunities out there than airlines imo. Tried w AAL and luv, sold both for very moderate gains. Glad I got out of AAL around 15 earlier this year.
Change is risk, risk means weak knees.
Like Chinese stocks, I'll never invest in airline stocks, even if they said they are incorporating AI and quantum computing I still wouldn't invest.
Balls of steel is what you need to buy or hold airlines. No thank you
This sounds like a desperate move that will ultimately fail.
$LUV is the only stock I bought somewhat near peak covid crash, back in May/June 2020, that is worth less now than it was then without doing any type of split in between. At the time I bought, they had one of the largest open orders for, and had already taken delivery of, significant number of Boeing 737 Max series aircraft. That was one of only 2 or 3 models in Southwest's entire fleet, and was grounded for some of 2019 until Christmas travel season of 2020, 6+ months after I bought shares. In fact, I bought because I thought gosh, any airline that doesnt go bankrupt from this, can only go up! And it did for quite a while, but now its reversed all gains, and I'm down a little over 18%. My cost basis, 100% of which was purchased between May 1, 2020 and June 1, 2020, was $33.85, and that's down $6.10 per share as of a few minutes ago. So, I bought when international travel to US was completely closed, domestic travel was severely restricted and in low demand, and a large portion of their fleet was grounded for safety reasons. And the share price is currently down nearly 20% between then and today without any of those obstacles still in play, for the most part (some specific Max series are grounded again now based on specific interior options and doors blowing off, but I don't think any of theirs are still grounded because they either didnt have that interior option or complied with the ADs quickly). I'm not sure what to make of that other than to say they are either stupidly undervalued right now, or they're in super bad shape and heading in the wrong direction as a company to have fallen so much between June 1, 2020 and now. I'm not sure which it is, but I strongly suspect the latter is far more likely. They're still having worldwide meltdowns and cancellations due to their outdated IT systems that manage scheduling and ticketing, and I've yet to hear any scuttlebutt about them doing a thing to replace or upgrade them, in any reasonable effort to prevent or even mitigate the mass catastrophic failures that have happened 2 or 3 times now in the last 18 months that grounded most of their fleet for 1 to 3 days at a time, stranding thousands of passengers each time. They're also progressively abandoning their niche market and the advantage they once had. They devalued their miles and frequent flyer programs 2 or 3 times each in the last few years, now are spit balling fee-added reserved seating. All 3 legacy domestics have done away with change fees since covid, which was formerly a big advantage of Southwest, and they're really about one baggage fee away from becoming the same as the legacy domestic carriers, but with an older, all Boeing fleet which are becoming irrationally but widely feared by a lot of the consumer market, a lower level of service compared to the domestics, and no first class or real food options. Oh, and it's extremely notable that whereas I used to regularly see their airfare at 35-50% of the price of legacy carriers, I now see them frequently at 100-125% of a legacy carrier price, so another huge jump in the wrong direction there. Can't see any of that working out real well for them long term, so I'll be holding my very tiny bag just to see if I can get out at less of a loss, and get out if or when the getting is good. In fact now that this post made me type this all out loud, I'll probably buy a couple NTM long puts, too, if the premiums are reasonable. Southwest was a good company because they ran more efficiently than other airlines, and offered the consumer a different, slightly reduced experience for a way better ticket price, with significantly more flexibility, all without nickel and diming folks to death, but almost nothing that made them standout and or appeal to that enormous target demographic still exists today, or is shared with the legacy domestics. I think they're also forgetting their main demographic, and have lost their identity for the most part, in terms of who is Southwest Airlines and who is the intended Southwest Airlines customer. I see no reason they won't do significantly worse than legacy carriers going forward, unless they make drastic changes in the opposite direction of the last several, back to what made them successful. Right now, they've devolved to operating similarly to the legacy carriers, at the same or similar price points, but with a reduced level of customer service and amenities, and they seem to be moving farther in that direction. That said, they are creating a bit of a vacuum in the budget air travel market by abandoning what once made them great. They might accidentally fall back into that vacuum once their increasingly common price increases fail gloriously and they're forced to roll back some of these changes to prevent bankruptcy, and they might also swap to an all Airbus fleet, but either and or both scenarios trend toward medium to long term bearish movement, with possible very short term rips once or twice as they spin reports on revenue from fee increases, but the king term hit to demand and business hasn't hit the reports yet, that type of thing. I'm just waiting for a short upswing to close out my very small position, probably still at a loss. Right now, they are offering a slightly worse experience than legacy carriers, at a similar or higher price in most US markets outside some specific high volume, high demand routes. That just has zero chance of long term sustainability, much less growth, in my humble opinion. TLDR: I bought in 2020 when half their fleet was grounded, international travel was mostly prohibited, and domestic air travel was extremely restricted and in very low demand, and it's down just over 18% since then, with all those obstacles cleared. Big 🌈🐻 vibes for me.
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Never, ever invest in an airline.
My son works for them and thinks they are a disaster and they are losing $ every quarter.
Why is running an airline so difficult? You take peoples money, they sit in seat and you take them from place A to B….
This sucks. Southwest is defined by two things: quality service, especially during IRROPS (except for that one time) and rapid boarding through sit wherever. Used to be defined by being cheap too but that's gone now so yeah.
I think UA is better with status than WN during IRROPS personally. So no point in Southwest
Well it’s up 9% today so I hope you bought
The biggest problem for Southwest is their fleet badly needs a replacement for its aging lower capacity 737-700s. They currently run a fleet of older 737-700s and larger 737-800s and their replacement 737-8 Maxes, with plans for the smaller 737-7 Max to replace the 737-700. Unfortunately, the 737-7 Max is delayed by the FAA and Southwest dropped its plans on the 737-7 Max joining the fleet in 2024. Southwest uses a mix of low and medium capacity 737s. This fleet mix used to be at a 4:1 ratio in favor of low capacity planes but is now more like 1:1 due to 737-7 Max delays. Their 737-700 continue to age and now over half their fleet is composed of the larger capacity 737-800 and 737-8 Max because they have to use the larger 737-8 Max to replace small 737-700s. Now larger 737-8 Maxes are used on routes that were serviced by smaller 737-700s and Southwest's passenger load factor fell in 2023. I think the cabin idea Southwest is piloting in customer focus groups is patchwork solution to their fleet mix problem of having too much airplane capacity for their routes, rather than an innovative way to transform their business model. They still operate on lean point-to-point routes with a low turnaround time on a single aircraft type. I wouldn't personally buy Southwest unless I believe they will figure out their fleet mix problem in the near term, through either 737-7 Max certification soon enough for 2025 deliveries or the acquisition of another airline with smaller, newer jets. The latter would represent a partial change in its business model if it means acquiring and adopting another aircraft type like a small Airbus or Embraer.
SWA is broke. Has no money and extremely dated IT systems. Upset crews and pilots. Yeah it’s going to moon
Business flyers would easily expense more costly seats if they are not able to fly mainline carriers up front seats…. Lots of money left on the table for them.
I don’t know any business flyers who fly Southwest unless it’s an emergency personally
I do. It’s a lot easier for me to get to MDW than ORD. I also fly mostly short routes and like getting credit for segments instead of just miles.
I don’t see the point. The international network/coverage doesn’t work out. If you only fly domestic I guess it’s whatever, but the lack of upgrades, can’t use points/credits for flying family international, etc. makes it uninteresting for me personally.
Yup, I even have the companion pass, so my SO and I fly out of MDW all the time. Actually on the Orange line coming back from MDW right now. But I’ll fly United ORD to try to keep up status with an airline that actually gets you some perks plus has a global reach, so points can actually go towards vacations.
I fly UA also and just load points from chase into southwest when I have to in a pinch.
I haven’t flown on United since they smashed that guys face when they forcibly deplaned him. I know that was a one off, but their whole vibe doesn’t land with me. LOVE the companion pass and that’s a big enough perk to stick with Southwest. To each their own, though.
Haven’t had any bad experiences with United, and I’ve traveled with them a bunch for work trips, but every airline is a YMMV situation these days. Companion pass for personal trips is a major factor in flying SW, and MDW being so easy compared to ORD is an added bonus.
I used to like how quickly I can get through MDW. But once you get enough status for United’s premium or first class, you’ll never wanna sit in those SW seats again. Plus ORD has better food options though I think MDW is renovating yet again.
almost every tech conference i go to, the salespeople rave about flying SWA.
lol.
Where do you live? I feel like the SFO/OAK/SJC+SAN+AUS tech triangle runs on LUV
I live at OAK/SFO main hub. There’s no upgrades or international benefits on Southwest. I don’t know any execs or in management who fly Southwest. 🤷🏽♂️
It's not just about upgrades, it's about point to point route timings. Getting from the Bay to Austin is hard. The only legacy non stop carrier is United and they only run three routes a day and none get you there before 3 pm or let you return back after 4pm. Southwest gives you far more options. And pretending that United has a better hard or soft product than Southwest is a joke. United is literal trash domestically and internationally is even worse. Pretending that Polaris was a hybrid J/F was a farce that they've thankfully abandoned in marketing, but even ignoring that it barely qualifies as J, especially when comparing to Middle Eastern and Asian competitors.
Southwest is barely better than spirit. I’d welcome better seating, boarding, and new classes. If they could introduce first class, I’d be stoked. Even if it’s “Delta level” first.
>Southwest’s plans seem way too complicated That summarizes my feelings perfectly. Also southwest sucks donkey dick to begin with, so... Just let me pick my fucking seat like the rest of the world, even movie theaters can do it.
yes
Yes
I don’t like airlines. For 3 years I heard dal luv and ual, 1000 shares of each in my portfolio for the sake of theta only. I sold covered calls for years. After 3 years last month closed my positions. Even after the premiums I received from selling calls performance was not worth the work. Not buying another airline stock ever.
buy NVDA
I read the article, however I want to just comment on my experience with southwest as it is currently. I fucking hate southwest. It’s the airline for regards who don’t actually travel much. The entire concept of not having a seat assigned is the most ghetto thing in the world and there is no way it makes boarding quicker. I hate talking and interacting with people - especially strangers in an airport at 5;30 AM. The entire rigamorol of discussing what boarding number yoi are then jockeying for seats when clearly middle age fats traveling together sit in seat a & c to try to get the entire row… it’s fucking stupid. The civilized male flies united and is at least platinum, preferably 1K.