AP article about it is wild
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-6-6-2024-3d07e712f8abc1e08339163180823fb8
"The hospital initially reported that nine women and 14 children were among those killed in the strike on the school. The hospital morgue later amended those records to show that the dead included three women, nine children and 21 men. It was not immediately clear what caused the discrepancy. An Associated Press reporter had counted the bodies but was unable to look beneath the shrouds."
Not questioning Hamas narrative even after they change their numbers, questioning everything IDF says but never even thinking to look up how many of the casualties are militants, like it doesn't even matter.
I get they might not have been able to tell woman and men apart..size wise about the same under a cover.
But going from 14 children to 9, Then 0 man to 21 + 3 woman... That's just guessing at this point.
No, it absolutely is not - and this is important because Hamas uses plenty of young men in their ranks. These statistics all classify 18 as the adult cutoff, the majority of child deaths are aged 15-18.
I'm not talking about what's included in statistics, I'm talking about how people interpret them based on how they're written. One person can say that 'there were XYZ child deaths' and reasonably include teen soldiers, because teens can still be considered children by virtue of not yet being adults. But it also wouldn't be abnormal for someone to hear 'dead child' and default to an eight year old or something, because 'otherwise they would have said teen'. The term "child" absolutely is ambiguous because of how easily it can be misinterpreted without clarification and mutual understanding of how it's being used.
There definitely are teen soldiers amongst the dead children. The picture they want to show is that children die, even though they’re far from innocent.
It’s only ambiguous in ignorant readers’ eyes. The media uses the term “children” to refer to any underage casualty in a conflict. Most outlets do, for most global conflicts. Since indeed many people don’t know for certain what is meant, and even for those that due, it increases engagement of the article and elicits a strong emotional response, improving readability. That’s media for you.
And Hamas employees plenty of people under the age of 18, another part of the discussion to this day that seems to be completely ignored by leftist media...
If a 17-year-old or 15-year-old dies that was an active member of Hamas that helped carry out the atrocities on October 7th... Do the people reporting who died actually take that into account? Or is a child, just a child even if you take away the gun that they were carrying? In my mind, if you are a terrorist, then you are a fucking terrorist. The fact that you happen to be an adolescent, is the fault of Hamas, and literally nobody else.
It could indeed be a 17 year old Hamas fighter if that's what you are asking. But let's be real here, obviously children with no affiliation with Hamas are dying there. And it is a tragedy, that is however also something Hamas could have prevented.
The terms are quite ambiguous in my native language as well, but most often another word is used to describe kids who are almost adults. I could see how one could confuse 16-17yo and young adults. But even then numbers are obviously chosen to fit an agenda.
I wouldn’t put it past Hamas to count 18 year olds as children too. Nobody is auditing the numbers. The media is blindly taking info provided by a third world terror org.
“Hagari said there were around 30 suspected militants in the three rooms. He said the military had confirmed killing nine of them, and displayed a slide showing their names and photos. He provided no other evidence to substantiate the military’s claims.”
Wafaa Shurafaa, unhappy with names and photos, wants to taste actual terrorist martyr blood as “evidence”?
But the Hamas Health Ministry’s names are always kosher?
> Troops pulled out of the Jabalia camp in northern Gaza last Friday after weeks of fighting caused widespread destruction. First responders have recovered the bodies of 360 people, mostly women and children, killed during the battles.
Don’t worry, they’re still swallowing Hamas’s figures without question
> It was not immediately clear what caused the discrepancy.
lmaooooooo
Yeah it's not like Hamas and its 'health ministry' have ever been caught blatantly lying before or anything...
We are seeing so much of this all the time. It's crazy how people cling on to their stance about Israel lying all the time, when we repeatedly see how the media actually lies to us. Or in the kindest expression, they are idiots who accept Hamas narrative and completely disregard Israels. One would think that these sorts of reveals should at least make people reflect on their stance. But i guess that is asking too much for what seems to be Hamas supporters, something that seems more clear for every day that passes.
I can not fathom how any rational human being can believe that Israel and the IDF are liars by default and intentionally and maliciously reporting false numbers to every nation across the world, but then also turn around and in the same breath say that they have full faith in any statement that Hamas has ever made.
I guess I can fathom how any human being can believe these things, but it's the irrationality of it all that absolutely boggles the mind. The amount of cognitive dissonance required to carry those thoughts simultaneously could be considered a mental illness at that point.
I'm not going to say anything so naive as "we can trust Israel completely", because I live in America and I know perfectly well that the Government is just like any other entity that will gladly spin the truth in small ways to make things seem a little better.
*However*, Israel, like the United States, has local press, local courts, and free speech. Altogether, the worst "lies" they tend to tell are either fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, various levels of relatively inconsequential incompetence, or legitimate mistakes. That's why we do occasionally see clarifications and follow-up stories from Israel, such as results of investigations and outcomes of court cases.
Like a normal, functional country, if you simply pay attention you can at least get fairly close to the truth, even if it takes a little investigation and patience for things to settle out.
Then there's Hamas. Frankly, anyone who believes them without a grain of salt the size of a small whale is an idiot.
I heard on NPR yesterday a reporter say they observed a body bag that said it contained 5 dead children. Didn’t see anything, just a bag with writing on it. Why would they put multiple bodies in one bag? Why just write “dead children” and not like names or something? Knowing what I do of Hamas it seemed sus af. I’m continuously surprised by what NPR will report on as fact in this situation.
What they're failing to mention is that the only reason that the AP reporter was allowed in is because they are likely a Gaza local associated with Hamas.
Have you guys not learned a thing from our friend Baghdad Bob ?
They LIE.
Terrorists LIE.
It's that simple.
Remember?:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=94VhPH7B0uY
The fact that Western Media takes Terrorists words at face value, is utter lunacy, lack of professionalism, or knowingly biased.
> Not questioning Hamas narrative even after they change their numbers, questioning everything IDF says but never even thinking to look up how many of the casualties are militants, like it doesn't even matter.
It doesn't matter to the AP.
And how many of those children, were Hamas soldiers?
It is infuriating to me, that people like yourself do not seem to understand that Hamas regularly uses people under the age of 18, and that doesn't magically make them immune from being a terrorist.
When a terrorist dies that also happens to be an adolescent, that is on hamas.
Edit:
Also, it should probably be noted that UNRWA is literally a grooming and recruitment center for Hamas...
https://vimeo.com/856467890
You cannot find work in Gaza, unless you are a member of Hamas, otherwise your chances of income are next to zero. If you really want to understand what it is like to be a Gazan that doesn't support the genocidal beliefs of Hamas, then you should listen to them. 👇
https://youtu.be/y8s5mF-DNmU?si=ZMYnodHIBj87msh7
Crazy how the news went from "30 dead mostly women and children" to "most of the dead are grown men, at least half of which were terrorists"
But again, it doesn’t matter, the lie went three times around the world before the truth got it’s boots on
There were literal riots in the streets across the globe when NYT, Al Jazeera, and many others reported as fact that Al Ahli hospital was bombed by IDF killing 500 civilians. GLOBAL PROTESTS. Diplomatic trips canceled.
It was all a lie. We haven’t learned.
The problem is that by the time the IDF bothers to actually research the claims, Hamas / media lies are already as good as "facts".
Especially since Useful Idiots don't really need facts .
I'm a leftist and I don't eat it up. Any who do are idiots, and any who support hamas are trautors to the leftist cause IMO.
How could any of them support a terrorist organisation which is closer to right wing ideology?
if only israel stopped shooting journalists so we'd actually have somebody that's not Hamas (lying terrorists) or IDF (lying terrorists) reporting on shit like this
If only [journalists in Gaza weren't threatened by torture and death](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/02/gaza-journalist-facing-prison-term-for-exposing-corruption-in-hamas-controlled-ministry/) for reporting critically about Hamas, and if only [the journalists weren't knowingly associated with recognized terrorist groups](https://jewishinsider.com/2024/05/journalists-death-toll-gaza-war-israel-hamas-palestinian-islamic-jihad/), and if only they didn't do things like [being commanders of Hamas anti-tank brigades](https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-journalist-is-also-a-hamas-commander-idf-says/)
You think a journalist can go to Gaza and give a fair report without being dealt with by Hamas?
Try writing something against Hamas while being in Gaza and tell me how it goes.
I'm constantly reminded of this video from 9 years ago.
They had to smuggle out and leave Gaza before reporting this....
>This report is being aired on NDTV and published on ndtv.com after our team left the Gaza strip - Hamas has not taken very kindly to any reporting of its rockets being fired. But just as we reported the devastating consequences of Israel's offensive on Gaza's civilians, it is equally important to report on how Hamas places those very civilians at risk by firing rockets deep from the heart of civilian zones.
https://youtu.be/A_fP6mlNSK8
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-641680
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-6-6-2024-3d07e712f8abc1e08339163180823fb8
An AP reporter literally was there and “didn’t check under the shrouds” before reporting.
Reporters are literally just doing random guess work just to blame Israel.
They didn't randomly guess anything, they reported what both sides said about the casualty numbers and even questioned why the Gaza numbers had a discrepancy. Read it again...
War journalists die in high numbers and that's not unique to Israel/Gaza. You can see it in the historical counts of journalist casualties by war and country--Gaza is not the outlier you think it is.
I’m waiting for the Columbia University students to be enraged at Hamas terrorists for using schoolchildren as human shields, instead of only blaming Israel for striking.
Are you surprised? Go point out the largest killing of civilians was done via car bomb by the IRA next to a church and it will be justified by saying "it wasn't the IRA it was a different organization!". Yea, a group calling themselves "The Real IRA" that told cops the wrong location of the bomb and caused higher casualty numbers because they evacuated the civilians to *right next to the bomb*.
That bomb was moved several hundred miles and and the IRA says "we didn't know about it" as if the people driving the bomb didn't use their routes and such.
Is anyone surprised anyone that gladly sings songs supporting the IRA is on the side if HAMAS? HAMAS is just using IRA tactics in a more modern era.
The largest killing of civilians ever? The largest killing of civilians in that era (the troubles) in Ireland were Dublin-Monaghan bombings carried out by Ulster loyalists targeting Irish nationalists and Catholics
Sorry. Wikipedia calls it the "deadliest incident of the Troubles in Norther Ireland". I'm only quoting them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing
It seems odd though. When I was searching for this specific incident so many others came up. It was hard to narrow down this specific one because the IRA had bombed so many different churches.
I still think it's weird to sing songs and praise a group that likes to bomb churches and brag about it. To me that's like praising ISIS for getting rid of religious statues.
Those songs are sung more to the anti-British sentiment rather than pro IRA. It’s hard to explain to outsiders so I can see why it would seem odd, but the vast majority of people in Ireland agree that the IRA were a net negative influence towards peace in Northern Ireland
Without meaning to be rude, it sounds like you don't know an awful lot about the Troubles, or indeed, the psyche of an oppressed people.
I'm in no way a supporter of Hamas, nor, I would argue, are 99% of the people in r/Ireland, but can see why people, particularly the Irish, would be very strongly anti Israeli.
You're absolutely right. What would someone that's Polish know about being oppressed? It's not like Polish people were tossed into some kind of camp, numbers put on their arms, killed in awful ways, executed in the streets, and then at the end of it all oppressed by the country that "saved" them. And thats just recent history.
That also doesn't cover the other half of my family, or my life experiences of traveling. But you're right. I've never seen the psyche of an oppressed people before.
In that conflict pro uk terrorist groups, as well as the uk security fitves had a higher civilian/combatant kill ratio.
Peoole pointing fingers at the Ira and making comparisons to that conflict need to look closer.
The IRA has gone through many iterations and fractured. The original IRA of British rule and Irish fighting for independence is not the same IRA doing bombings in the 80s/90s. You know this but have a disdain for Ireland since they don’t simp for Israel.
[Here's ](https://x.com/MiddleEastBuka/status/1799012329700704561?t=I4cu2tJ1VSI_P4gmaWLcXg&s=19) an excellent analysis of the casualties in this strike
I noticed that they listed Mr. "intact furniture" as one of the 18 martyrs (#3). May his name be blessed.
Makes me sort of wonder whether they at all know what they are doing, or is this like middle-school project levels of quality.
Did it ever occur to you that if Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, and/ or hospitals and schools, as hiding places, we won't be having these discussions ?
Almost like if you can’t wage war without using your civilians as shields you should maybe not wage war.
Hamas might have every right to resist an occupier. But their inadequacy to do so without safeguarding their civilian populations doesn’t justify using them as a defensive tactic.
It would be different if Israel had started this war and as a result Hamas were like well we gotta fight back and we have no way to do it other than this.
If Hamas didn't do that there literally would not be wars in Gaza or a terrorist organization leading Gaza. Hamas exists solely for the destruction of Israel. Not once in its 40+ year long existence did it provide a single point of aid to the Palestinians (discounting Sheikh Yassin's early personal contributions before leading Hamas to where it is today). For nearly 20 years it has worked exclusively to turn Gaza into a future war zone, filled with civilians above ground acting as human shields for the hundreds of miles of tunnel infrastructure underground. Not a single shelter for its 2 million civilians. Not a single day spent attempting to reach an agreement with Israel.
That is current interantional law- kinda- as it stands.
The reasoning is that if you punish the person who hit the human shields, it incentivizes people to use human shields. We obviously don't want that, so international law allows people to hit anyways.
There is a bit about proportionality, but it's really vague so it's kinda hard to determine what specifically counts as proportional.
It works like this: its against the rules of war to hide amongst civilians. The moment a enemy combatant is found and confirmed within civilian infrastructure (schools, churches, hospitals and the like) that civilian infrastructure is then turned into a legitimate military target (especially if there's been confirmed fire coming from the building)
Ontop of this. Hamas doesnt use any identifying markers to mark their military combatants, which is another warcrime. And if they do, they tend to ditch thoose markers, after engangement, so IDF cant identify them as easily (which tbf is a very common terrorist group tactic to use, and not anything hamas specific)
The amount of civilian casualties depend on situation.
Are those your civilians? What is the ratio of possible future casualties?
Airstrike on building in US to kill some terrorist and a few hostages won't fly. But I can see it being feasible if there is an urgent risk of disproportionate losses due to terrorist action.
Airstrike on building in enemy territory that has bunch of civs and combatants is more reasonable. You won't do it if the amount of civs to combatants is too high, unless it is enemy leader and this is the best chance to do it.
The difference is that in a war, you can't control the situation. Specops are good, but not magic. Sending them willy nilly into enemy territory with high density of combatants won't amount to much. But if it's your land, terrorists don't have support of local population, you have much better knowledge about the situation and you are in control of the environment, success of specops is more likely.
In ww1 and ww2, there was a theory of strategic bombing. If you keep bombing enemy cities, they will surrender. Which means that a huge fleet of bombers will guarantee peace since the civilian population would surely overthrown government that attacks you. Didn't really work that well.
Yeah but they are. So why is the only solution the level the building?
Not that the US is the gold standard, but when they killed Bin Laden. I don’t think anyone (except the Pakistanis) would’ve batted an eye if they just cruise missiled the compound. But instead they sent people in and of the dozens of people that were there they killed 5.
As an American I can say that the US is not great in many ways, but it is widely recognized that our military is top-notch among the nations of the world. This doesn't mean they are perfect but it does mean that it's kind of unfair to compare the elite SEAL Team Six, armed with previously unknown stealth helicopter technology and the full intelligence of the US satellite system, against pretty much anybody else.
Think about it: you're asking them to go infiltrate a hostile foreign nation under wartime conditions, and assassinate their targets without collateral damage. That kind of thing is an ultra high risk mission even for US special forces, and even they lost a helicopter and risked the mission failing. If you are thinking that this is an ok job for some accountant-turned-IDF-reservist with three months of training, that is ludicrous.
Did you even check what Israel says about this strike? The IDF said they used precision munitions and specifically targeted 3 rooms that the terrorists were in (after delaying the strike twice due to the presence of women and children in the area - they were monitoring with a drone). Why are you presuming that they were sloppy about it? They're fighting an enemy that lies to their teeth about every aspect of the outcome and everyone laps it up.
And the US wanted to catch Bin Laden (the equivalent of Israel capturing the leader of all of Hamas - who is not even in Gaza) alive, so your entire attempt at an analogy is failing there. Israel isn't going to waste their soldiers' lives on whatever lower nothings were in this school.
What's the alternative? Send soldiers and have a battle with bullets and shrapnel flying everywhere? Pretty much a guarantee of a bloodbath as it'd be all but impossible to distinguish non-threats since Palestinian terrorists have used men, women and children as suicide bombers before. Anyone getting close to the soldiers would probably have been gunned down.
The US sent Spec Ops for Bin Laden not out of a fear of collateral casualties, but because they needed first hand confirmation/evidence that he was dead. It would have been a massive embarrassment if Bin Laden somehow survived, or, more likely, if someone claimed he did and the US didn't having evidence to the contrary.
They also don't have a choice. All other attempts at legitimate governance from within Gaza have been destroyed. Someone has to run the place, and the only ones who survive are those who can do guerrilla warfare. Anyone who attempts to peacefully and openly do anything for the people in Gaza gets assassinated.
Not the Karim Khan or the ICC! They are too busy with the charges they just pressed against Israel's democratically elected leader and defense minister. I think folks would take the U.N., the ICC, and Khan himself more seriously if they were actually even handed in at least this dispute. He's been ignoring China, Afghanistan, and Nigeria for his entire tenure but let's put that aside.
He didn't bring charges against Hamas ***until*** he also brought charges against Israel (despite the fact that Hamas' crimes were literally video taped 6 months ago) and even then he ***only*** charged Hamas for the Oct. 7 crimes. Still nothing about the prior and ongoing missile attacks that Hamas openly states are targeting civilians, still nothing about Hamas stealing aid, and still nothing about Hamas using human shields.
It's also pretty damning that the charges he brought against Israel are not related to their bombing campaign but for restricting aid into Gaza thereby creating a famine to "exterminate" the Palestinians in Gaza. Let's say you buy all that, Khan's silence when Egypt doesn't just restrict aid, but literally shuts down all aid into Gaza because they don't like that the Israeli's control the crossing and it rots in the Sinai during a famine completely undermines his seriousness about the charges he brought against Israel. Similarly, his silence when Hamas steals the aid from the victims of the famine is pretty egregious considering it may be the literal ***proximate cause*** of the famine that he is charging Israel with creating.
If it's Israel, merely limiting aid to Gaza is creating a famine that constitutes a crime against humanity and "extermination."
If it's Hamas literally stealing aid to support their war and selling what's left to the victims of the purported famine, he doesn't see any issue.
If it's Egypt shutting down ***all aid*** during the purported famine, again he can't be bothered to even issue a statement condemning it. He's too busy charging Israel for doing less.
Hamas always straight up lie, and the anti-Semitic pro Palestinians believe it and ignore counter evidence produced in the future.
What is even worse are the "Wilhelm Marr" press who also report these lies, and believe me, they know that they are lies.
As the saying goes, once bitten, twice shy, three times a fool. With the amount of blatant Hamas lies so far, the press and the pro Palestinian are either more than stupid or just anti-Semitic.
The numbers are always a coverup and a lie, the use of hospitals or schools is always a coverup and a lie, whodoneit is always a lie, its all just fiction..
Right or wrong, (I don't think the IDF is blameless anymore), it's very clear that the perception of who is the aggressor matters in warfare, particularly in the West. And words like refugee camp, hospital, and school matter.
It's also very clear that had ISIS been smarter, they could have easily played the West. It is Hamas that is reporting these casualties, and the Western media eats it noncritically. The American coalition was absolutely as ruthless in its air campaign. Thousands died. Fewer terrorist attacks in Europe, and more weekly casualty reports about civilian deaths in Mosul and Raqqa, would've changed that war's support completely.
BTW, UN CEO called that attack a massacre and horrible attack.
The funny thing is that there is a ton of evidence of Hamas operating from UN facilities and yet the UN CEO never said anything about it
AP article about it is wild https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-6-6-2024-3d07e712f8abc1e08339163180823fb8 "The hospital initially reported that nine women and 14 children were among those killed in the strike on the school. The hospital morgue later amended those records to show that the dead included three women, nine children and 21 men. It was not immediately clear what caused the discrepancy. An Associated Press reporter had counted the bodies but was unable to look beneath the shrouds." Not questioning Hamas narrative even after they change their numbers, questioning everything IDF says but never even thinking to look up how many of the casualties are militants, like it doesn't even matter.
> An Associated Press reporter had counted the bodies but was unable to look beneath the shrouds. lol
“This sack of potatoes is 15 dead children “
True journalism
It WAS, in fact, immediately clear what caused the discrepancy.
I get they might not have been able to tell woman and men apart..size wise about the same under a cover. But going from 14 children to 9, Then 0 man to 21 + 3 woman... That's just guessing at this point.
What does children mean? Pre-teen or just less than 18 years old? I'm not a native English speaker.
It's ambiguous and depends on the intent of the person saying it.
No, it absolutely is not - and this is important because Hamas uses plenty of young men in their ranks. These statistics all classify 18 as the adult cutoff, the majority of child deaths are aged 15-18.
I'm not talking about what's included in statistics, I'm talking about how people interpret them based on how they're written. One person can say that 'there were XYZ child deaths' and reasonably include teen soldiers, because teens can still be considered children by virtue of not yet being adults. But it also wouldn't be abnormal for someone to hear 'dead child' and default to an eight year old or something, because 'otherwise they would have said teen'. The term "child" absolutely is ambiguous because of how easily it can be misinterpreted without clarification and mutual understanding of how it's being used.
There definitely are teen soldiers amongst the dead children. The picture they want to show is that children die, even though they’re far from innocent.
It’s only ambiguous in ignorant readers’ eyes. The media uses the term “children” to refer to any underage casualty in a conflict. Most outlets do, for most global conflicts. Since indeed many people don’t know for certain what is meant, and even for those that due, it increases engagement of the article and elicits a strong emotional response, improving readability. That’s media for you.
I’m not doubting you, but I would love to see a source for this if you have/know of one. I’ve looked a few times but never found anything legit.
It's generally less than 18.
And Hamas employees plenty of people under the age of 18, another part of the discussion to this day that seems to be completely ignored by leftist media... If a 17-year-old or 15-year-old dies that was an active member of Hamas that helped carry out the atrocities on October 7th... Do the people reporting who died actually take that into account? Or is a child, just a child even if you take away the gun that they were carrying? In my mind, if you are a terrorist, then you are a fucking terrorist. The fact that you happen to be an adolescent, is the fault of Hamas, and literally nobody else.
Well the sheep who follow are to blame as well. Useful idiots are more and more useful these days.
For Hamas it means under 19, and also does not differentiate between terrorists and non combatants.
Interesting. Is the legal adult age 19 in Palestine?
Age of consent only matters in developed countries
No, it's more that reporting 18 year old terrorists as "children" is better optics for Hamas.
Usually it's anyone under 18
It could indeed be a 17 year old Hamas fighter if that's what you are asking. But let's be real here, obviously children with no affiliation with Hamas are dying there. And it is a tragedy, that is however also something Hamas could have prevented.
The terms are quite ambiguous in my native language as well, but most often another word is used to describe kids who are almost adults. I could see how one could confuse 16-17yo and young adults. But even then numbers are obviously chosen to fit an agenda.
I wouldn’t put it past Hamas to count 18 year olds as children too. Nobody is auditing the numbers. The media is blindly taking info provided by a third world terror org.
15-18 age men and sometime up-to 21 that also counted even they're carrying gun and a members of HAMAS.
Everyone is a child!
15 year old hamas child soldiers probably included
Not guessing, it's outright lying for sympathy. They know very well how to play peoples hearths.
It's like a game of 52 pickup
“Hagari said there were around 30 suspected militants in the three rooms. He said the military had confirmed killing nine of them, and displayed a slide showing their names and photos. He provided no other evidence to substantiate the military’s claims.” Wafaa Shurafaa, unhappy with names and photos, wants to taste actual terrorist martyr blood as “evidence”? But the Hamas Health Ministry’s names are always kosher?
> Troops pulled out of the Jabalia camp in northern Gaza last Friday after weeks of fighting caused widespread destruction. First responders have recovered the bodies of 360 people, mostly women and children, killed during the battles. Don’t worry, they’re still swallowing Hamas’s figures without question
> It was not immediately clear what caused the discrepancy. lmaooooooo Yeah it's not like Hamas and its 'health ministry' have ever been caught blatantly lying before or anything...
We are seeing so much of this all the time. It's crazy how people cling on to their stance about Israel lying all the time, when we repeatedly see how the media actually lies to us. Or in the kindest expression, they are idiots who accept Hamas narrative and completely disregard Israels. One would think that these sorts of reveals should at least make people reflect on their stance. But i guess that is asking too much for what seems to be Hamas supporters, something that seems more clear for every day that passes.
I can not fathom how any rational human being can believe that Israel and the IDF are liars by default and intentionally and maliciously reporting false numbers to every nation across the world, but then also turn around and in the same breath say that they have full faith in any statement that Hamas has ever made. I guess I can fathom how any human being can believe these things, but it's the irrationality of it all that absolutely boggles the mind. The amount of cognitive dissonance required to carry those thoughts simultaneously could be considered a mental illness at that point.
I'm not going to say anything so naive as "we can trust Israel completely", because I live in America and I know perfectly well that the Government is just like any other entity that will gladly spin the truth in small ways to make things seem a little better. *However*, Israel, like the United States, has local press, local courts, and free speech. Altogether, the worst "lies" they tend to tell are either fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, various levels of relatively inconsequential incompetence, or legitimate mistakes. That's why we do occasionally see clarifications and follow-up stories from Israel, such as results of investigations and outcomes of court cases. Like a normal, functional country, if you simply pay attention you can at least get fairly close to the truth, even if it takes a little investigation and patience for things to settle out. Then there's Hamas. Frankly, anyone who believes them without a grain of salt the size of a small whale is an idiot.
I heard on NPR yesterday a reporter say they observed a body bag that said it contained 5 dead children. Didn’t see anything, just a bag with writing on it. Why would they put multiple bodies in one bag? Why just write “dead children” and not like names or something? Knowing what I do of Hamas it seemed sus af. I’m continuously surprised by what NPR will report on as fact in this situation.
I mean. If we are being grotesque, if there were only parts recovered I could see that being the case.
Or maybe there is a shortage of body bags? Regardless, journalists should be doing some verification before just parroting what one side says…
What they're failing to mention is that the only reason that the AP reporter was allowed in is because they are likely a Gaza local associated with Hamas.
Bet some of the militants were 16-17 year old and Hamas was happy to add them to their children death count
The only people who buy into Hamas numbers are useful idiots. The issue is, thanks to social media, the numbers of useful idiots has exploded.
The AP: Brought to you by Qatar’s petrodollars, the PRC, and Putin
> It was not immediately clear what caused the discrepancy. Oh sure sure sure.
Ah, 9 children. Sure sounds like a school that is very much running and not a building Hamas made sure to stock with some human shields.
Have you guys not learned a thing from our friend Baghdad Bob ? They LIE. Terrorists LIE. It's that simple. Remember?: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=94VhPH7B0uY The fact that Western Media takes Terrorists words at face value, is utter lunacy, lack of professionalism, or knowingly biased.
> Not questioning Hamas narrative even after they change their numbers, questioning everything IDF says but never even thinking to look up how many of the casualties are militants, like it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter to the AP.
And how many of those children, were Hamas soldiers? It is infuriating to me, that people like yourself do not seem to understand that Hamas regularly uses people under the age of 18, and that doesn't magically make them immune from being a terrorist. When a terrorist dies that also happens to be an adolescent, that is on hamas. Edit: Also, it should probably be noted that UNRWA is literally a grooming and recruitment center for Hamas... https://vimeo.com/856467890 You cannot find work in Gaza, unless you are a member of Hamas, otherwise your chances of income are next to zero. If you really want to understand what it is like to be a Gazan that doesn't support the genocidal beliefs of Hamas, then you should listen to them. 👇 https://youtu.be/y8s5mF-DNmU?si=ZMYnodHIBj87msh7
Crazy how the news went from "30 dead mostly women and children" to "most of the dead are grown men, at least half of which were terrorists" But again, it doesn’t matter, the lie went three times around the world before the truth got it’s boots on
There were literal riots in the streets across the globe when NYT, Al Jazeera, and many others reported as fact that Al Ahli hospital was bombed by IDF killing 500 civilians. GLOBAL PROTESTS. Diplomatic trips canceled. It was all a lie. We haven’t learned.
The problem is that by the time the IDF bothers to actually research the claims, Hamas / media lies are already as good as "facts". Especially since Useful Idiots don't really need facts .
Well, it does take time to verify information, and conjuring up a lie takes only a moment!
Yup. Amazing thought, how irresponsible international media is. Amateurs.
How does anybody actually verify any of this?
They don't. Most everything that is reported by hamas is a lie to turn western minds against Israel. And the lefties eat it up.
I'm a leftie and I don't eat it up
There's dozens of us!
dozens!
Thank you
Likewise. It’s frustrating to see the absolute misinformed fervor of many on the left, when it comes to Israel/Palestine.
I'm a leftist and I don't eat it up. Any who do are idiots, and any who support hamas are trautors to the leftist cause IMO. How could any of them support a terrorist organisation which is closer to right wing ideology?
As opposed to the government of Israel, which has definitely never lied or changed its story or numbers to propagandize righties...
if only israel stopped shooting journalists so we'd actually have somebody that's not Hamas (lying terrorists) or IDF (lying terrorists) reporting on shit like this
If only [journalists in Gaza weren't threatened by torture and death](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/02/gaza-journalist-facing-prison-term-for-exposing-corruption-in-hamas-controlled-ministry/) for reporting critically about Hamas, and if only [the journalists weren't knowingly associated with recognized terrorist groups](https://jewishinsider.com/2024/05/journalists-death-toll-gaza-war-israel-hamas-palestinian-islamic-jihad/), and if only they didn't do things like [being commanders of Hamas anti-tank brigades](https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-journalist-is-also-a-hamas-commander-idf-says/)
You think a journalist can go to Gaza and give a fair report without being dealt with by Hamas? Try writing something against Hamas while being in Gaza and tell me how it goes.
I'm constantly reminded of this video from 9 years ago. They had to smuggle out and leave Gaza before reporting this.... >This report is being aired on NDTV and published on ndtv.com after our team left the Gaza strip - Hamas has not taken very kindly to any reporting of its rockets being fired. But just as we reported the devastating consequences of Israel's offensive on Gaza's civilians, it is equally important to report on how Hamas places those very civilians at risk by firing rockets deep from the heart of civilian zones. https://youtu.be/A_fP6mlNSK8 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-641680
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-6-6-2024-3d07e712f8abc1e08339163180823fb8 An AP reporter literally was there and “didn’t check under the shrouds” before reporting. Reporters are literally just doing random guess work just to blame Israel.
They didn't randomly guess anything, they reported what both sides said about the casualty numbers and even questioned why the Gaza numbers had a discrepancy. Read it again...
War journalists die in high numbers and that's not unique to Israel/Gaza. You can see it in the historical counts of journalist casualties by war and country--Gaza is not the outlier you think it is.
I’m waiting for the Columbia University students to be enraged at Hamas terrorists for using schoolchildren as human shields, instead of only blaming Israel for striking.
r/ireland is saying that UNRWA are some of the best working lads around. The delusion over there is crazy.
The inclusion of "UN" in UNRWA is one of the 20th Century's greatest PR coups.
United Nations Rocket Warehouse Agency.
Are you surprised? Go point out the largest killing of civilians was done via car bomb by the IRA next to a church and it will be justified by saying "it wasn't the IRA it was a different organization!". Yea, a group calling themselves "The Real IRA" that told cops the wrong location of the bomb and caused higher casualty numbers because they evacuated the civilians to *right next to the bomb*. That bomb was moved several hundred miles and and the IRA says "we didn't know about it" as if the people driving the bomb didn't use their routes and such. Is anyone surprised anyone that gladly sings songs supporting the IRA is on the side if HAMAS? HAMAS is just using IRA tactics in a more modern era.
Palestinians literally taught the IRA bomb making in the 70s, in Lebanon and then later in Libya.
The largest killing of civilians ever? The largest killing of civilians in that era (the troubles) in Ireland were Dublin-Monaghan bombings carried out by Ulster loyalists targeting Irish nationalists and Catholics
Sorry. Wikipedia calls it the "deadliest incident of the Troubles in Norther Ireland". I'm only quoting them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing
Ah “in Northern Ireland” the key there then
It seems odd though. When I was searching for this specific incident so many others came up. It was hard to narrow down this specific one because the IRA had bombed so many different churches. I still think it's weird to sing songs and praise a group that likes to bomb churches and brag about it. To me that's like praising ISIS for getting rid of religious statues.
Those songs are sung more to the anti-British sentiment rather than pro IRA. It’s hard to explain to outsiders so I can see why it would seem odd, but the vast majority of people in Ireland agree that the IRA were a net negative influence towards peace in Northern Ireland
Thats fair. I guess I've just had the wrong people try to explain the songs I've heard to me. I appreciate you taking the time to talk it out with me.
the only people I've ever heard sing an IRA song were Irish-Americans
Without meaning to be rude, it sounds like you don't know an awful lot about the Troubles, or indeed, the psyche of an oppressed people. I'm in no way a supporter of Hamas, nor, I would argue, are 99% of the people in r/Ireland, but can see why people, particularly the Irish, would be very strongly anti Israeli.
You're absolutely right. What would someone that's Polish know about being oppressed? It's not like Polish people were tossed into some kind of camp, numbers put on their arms, killed in awful ways, executed in the streets, and then at the end of it all oppressed by the country that "saved" them. And thats just recent history. That also doesn't cover the other half of my family, or my life experiences of traveling. But you're right. I've never seen the psyche of an oppressed people before.
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Ulster is a province in Ireland
Sorry but I’m genuinely curious, why not take ~2 seconds to google this?
In that conflict pro uk terrorist groups, as well as the uk security fitves had a higher civilian/combatant kill ratio. Peoole pointing fingers at the Ira and making comparisons to that conflict need to look closer.
Does that justify bombing churches? Just checking.
The IRA has gone through many iterations and fractured. The original IRA of British rule and Irish fighting for independence is not the same IRA doing bombings in the 80s/90s. You know this but have a disdain for Ireland since they don’t simp for Israel.
This truly has nothing whatsoever to do with Ireland
That sub hasn’t had a post about Hamas or UNRWA in over a month
Don't hold your breath 😉
School’s out for the summer so they don’t have to care for a few months.
Don’t hold your breath.
Is their government supplying weapons and financial support to Hamas doing that?
[Here's ](https://x.com/MiddleEastBuka/status/1799012329700704561?t=I4cu2tJ1VSI_P4gmaWLcXg&s=19) an excellent analysis of the casualties in this strike
I noticed that they listed Mr. "intact furniture" as one of the 18 martyrs (#3). May his name be blessed. Makes me sort of wonder whether they at all know what they are doing, or is this like middle-school project levels of quality.
I'd say that's a translation mistake, in arabic it's Salim, also a man name.
Good lord.
Innocent students learning applied electrical engineering, basic organic chemistry, and ballistic trajectory mathematics 😢
Did it ever occur to you that if Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, and/ or hospitals and schools, as hiding places, we won't be having these discussions ?
I mean, the war would have been over in six days, with few to no civilian casualties.
Almost like if you can’t wage war without using your civilians as shields you should maybe not wage war. Hamas might have every right to resist an occupier. But their inadequacy to do so without safeguarding their civilian populations doesn’t justify using them as a defensive tactic. It would be different if Israel had started this war and as a result Hamas were like well we gotta fight back and we have no way to do it other than this.
A war involving Israel over in 6 days. Where have I heard that before?
If Hamas didn't do that there literally would not be wars in Gaza or a terrorist organization leading Gaza. Hamas exists solely for the destruction of Israel. Not once in its 40+ year long existence did it provide a single point of aid to the Palestinians (discounting Sheikh Yassin's early personal contributions before leading Hamas to where it is today). For nearly 20 years it has worked exclusively to turn Gaza into a future war zone, filled with civilians above ground acting as human shields for the hundreds of miles of tunnel infrastructure underground. Not a single shelter for its 2 million civilians. Not a single day spent attempting to reach an agreement with Israel.
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That is current interantional law- kinda- as it stands. The reasoning is that if you punish the person who hit the human shields, it incentivizes people to use human shields. We obviously don't want that, so international law allows people to hit anyways. There is a bit about proportionality, but it's really vague so it's kinda hard to determine what specifically counts as proportional.
It works like this: its against the rules of war to hide amongst civilians. The moment a enemy combatant is found and confirmed within civilian infrastructure (schools, churches, hospitals and the like) that civilian infrastructure is then turned into a legitimate military target (especially if there's been confirmed fire coming from the building) Ontop of this. Hamas doesnt use any identifying markers to mark their military combatants, which is another warcrime. And if they do, they tend to ditch thoose markers, after engangement, so IDF cant identify them as easily (which tbf is a very common terrorist group tactic to use, and not anything hamas specific)
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The amount of civilian casualties depend on situation. Are those your civilians? What is the ratio of possible future casualties? Airstrike on building in US to kill some terrorist and a few hostages won't fly. But I can see it being feasible if there is an urgent risk of disproportionate losses due to terrorist action. Airstrike on building in enemy territory that has bunch of civs and combatants is more reasonable. You won't do it if the amount of civs to combatants is too high, unless it is enemy leader and this is the best chance to do it. The difference is that in a war, you can't control the situation. Specops are good, but not magic. Sending them willy nilly into enemy territory with high density of combatants won't amount to much. But if it's your land, terrorists don't have support of local population, you have much better knowledge about the situation and you are in control of the environment, success of specops is more likely. In ww1 and ww2, there was a theory of strategic bombing. If you keep bombing enemy cities, they will surrender. Which means that a huge fleet of bombers will guarantee peace since the civilian population would surely overthrown government that attacks you. Didn't really work that well.
Yeah but they are. So why is the only solution the level the building? Not that the US is the gold standard, but when they killed Bin Laden. I don’t think anyone (except the Pakistanis) would’ve batted an eye if they just cruise missiled the compound. But instead they sent people in and of the dozens of people that were there they killed 5.
As an American I can say that the US is not great in many ways, but it is widely recognized that our military is top-notch among the nations of the world. This doesn't mean they are perfect but it does mean that it's kind of unfair to compare the elite SEAL Team Six, armed with previously unknown stealth helicopter technology and the full intelligence of the US satellite system, against pretty much anybody else. Think about it: you're asking them to go infiltrate a hostile foreign nation under wartime conditions, and assassinate their targets without collateral damage. That kind of thing is an ultra high risk mission even for US special forces, and even they lost a helicopter and risked the mission failing. If you are thinking that this is an ok job for some accountant-turned-IDF-reservist with three months of training, that is ludicrous.
Did you even check what Israel says about this strike? The IDF said they used precision munitions and specifically targeted 3 rooms that the terrorists were in (after delaying the strike twice due to the presence of women and children in the area - they were monitoring with a drone). Why are you presuming that they were sloppy about it? They're fighting an enemy that lies to their teeth about every aspect of the outcome and everyone laps it up. And the US wanted to catch Bin Laden (the equivalent of Israel capturing the leader of all of Hamas - who is not even in Gaza) alive, so your entire attempt at an analogy is failing there. Israel isn't going to waste their soldiers' lives on whatever lower nothings were in this school.
What's the alternative? Send soldiers and have a battle with bullets and shrapnel flying everywhere? Pretty much a guarantee of a bloodbath as it'd be all but impossible to distinguish non-threats since Palestinian terrorists have used men, women and children as suicide bombers before. Anyone getting close to the soldiers would probably have been gunned down. The US sent Spec Ops for Bin Laden not out of a fear of collateral casualties, but because they needed first hand confirmation/evidence that he was dead. It would have been a massive embarrassment if Bin Laden somehow survived, or, more likely, if someone claimed he did and the US didn't having evidence to the contrary.
They also don't have a choice. All other attempts at legitimate governance from within Gaza have been destroyed. Someone has to run the place, and the only ones who survive are those who can do guerrilla warfare. Anyone who attempts to peacefully and openly do anything for the people in Gaza gets assassinated.
> level the building Does [this building](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPZLwRCbcAAit-w?format=jpg&name=medium) look leveled to you?
Not the Karim Khan or the ICC! They are too busy with the charges they just pressed against Israel's democratically elected leader and defense minister. I think folks would take the U.N., the ICC, and Khan himself more seriously if they were actually even handed in at least this dispute. He's been ignoring China, Afghanistan, and Nigeria for his entire tenure but let's put that aside. He didn't bring charges against Hamas ***until*** he also brought charges against Israel (despite the fact that Hamas' crimes were literally video taped 6 months ago) and even then he ***only*** charged Hamas for the Oct. 7 crimes. Still nothing about the prior and ongoing missile attacks that Hamas openly states are targeting civilians, still nothing about Hamas stealing aid, and still nothing about Hamas using human shields. It's also pretty damning that the charges he brought against Israel are not related to their bombing campaign but for restricting aid into Gaza thereby creating a famine to "exterminate" the Palestinians in Gaza. Let's say you buy all that, Khan's silence when Egypt doesn't just restrict aid, but literally shuts down all aid into Gaza because they don't like that the Israeli's control the crossing and it rots in the Sinai during a famine completely undermines his seriousness about the charges he brought against Israel. Similarly, his silence when Hamas steals the aid from the victims of the famine is pretty egregious considering it may be the literal ***proximate cause*** of the famine that he is charging Israel with creating. If it's Israel, merely limiting aid to Gaza is creating a famine that constitutes a crime against humanity and "extermination." If it's Hamas literally stealing aid to support their war and selling what's left to the victims of the purported famine, he doesn't see any issue. If it's Egypt shutting down ***all aid*** during the purported famine, again he can't be bothered to even issue a statement condemning it. He's too busy charging Israel for doing less.
Hamas always straight up lie, and the anti-Semitic pro Palestinians believe it and ignore counter evidence produced in the future. What is even worse are the "Wilhelm Marr" press who also report these lies, and believe me, they know that they are lies. As the saying goes, once bitten, twice shy, three times a fool. With the amount of blatant Hamas lies so far, the press and the pro Palestinian are either more than stupid or just anti-Semitic.
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Yup its horrible that hamas lies and uses hospitals and schools and coverups.
The numbers are always a coverup and a lie, the use of hospitals or schools is always a coverup and a lie, whodoneit is always a lie, its all just fiction..
But I saw on twitter that they’re all women and children?
Right or wrong, (I don't think the IDF is blameless anymore), it's very clear that the perception of who is the aggressor matters in warfare, particularly in the West. And words like refugee camp, hospital, and school matter. It's also very clear that had ISIS been smarter, they could have easily played the West. It is Hamas that is reporting these casualties, and the Western media eats it noncritically. The American coalition was absolutely as ruthless in its air campaign. Thousands died. Fewer terrorist attacks in Europe, and more weekly casualty reports about civilian deaths in Mosul and Raqqa, would've changed that war's support completely.
BTW, UN CEO called that attack a massacre and horrible attack. The funny thing is that there is a ton of evidence of Hamas operating from UN facilities and yet the UN CEO never said anything about it
Gutierrez is a fuckin anti Israel clown. A head clown in a circus 🎪 that the UN has become.
Please tell me that there's at least some proof of this? We can't just take Israel's word, right?
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Burn in hell each one of them
Really interesting how several of the 'pro Palestine' = anti semitism commenters have pro Russian posts elsewhere. Hmm 🤔