Ukraine took a risk moving a Patriot battery that close to the front, but it paid off. Pretty sure Russia now keeps their radar planes much further back.
See this is why we should be careful of slippery slopes!
First your innocently strapping knives on Rhombas, and next thing you know your strapping patriot missiles to unmanned drones!
I like the Claymore edition that plays "Welcome to the Jungle" when activated.
https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1943774
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/doomba
Yeah, the other day I caught my daughter strapping a SA-7 MANPADs to an autonomous jetski.
I should have suspected something when she started dropping tennis balls on the dog with a quadrotor... I thought it was innocent, but I guess that's how it always starts!
Serbs shot down F-117A with S-125 missle , designed in 1961 .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-125_Neva/Pechora
And ZoltƔn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani
On battlefield (well sky too) - never undestimate resourceful and smart adversary.
Speculated to be with an outdated S-200 system. Much less capable of engaging maneuvering threats like fighters or fast threats like ballistic missiles, but might be able to hit a big slow AWACS plane from long range.
The Libyans apparently tried to chuck a missile at ether a tanker or a CC aircraft years ago, (before the 2011 shit) by timing the holding pattern. They missed, but it was damn close from my understanding.
Wonder if the Ukrainians did something similar with the not Patriot missile.
>by timing the holding pattern.
I think that's one of the reasons that guy in the Balkans shot down a Nighthawk back in the 90s. They kept flying the same route over and over again until a smart colonel in charge of a SAM battery still using technology utilizing vacuum tubes shot one down.
Kinda. The Serbians knew the nighthawk flew in a particular pattern but they still couldn't get a lock. They waited until the bay doors opened which changes the aircraft stealth signature and managed to get a firing solution.
Thatāll never happen again either. Until that incident the nighthawk had bomb doors that would open and close normally. They were upgraded, and all subsequent stealth aircraft have systems to open the doors for fractions of a second to deploy ammo.
Likely a result of the franken sam system. Possibly guidance provided by Patriot radars to s200s which is crazy and says a lot about the adaptability of US systems
I remember hearing that Russian jets/military planes donāt carry as many countermeasure charges as western planes. I tried to confirm this but donāt see any definitive proof. In such a gigantic and slow aircraft, running out of countermeasures is basically a death sentence, even with a 1960ās era SAM.
Patriot range quotes assume a maneuvering target but if you launch on the most efficient path at a target moving in a predictable path and you program it to fly at a speed maximizing range, it can out perform the quoted range, apparently significantly.
Contrast this to Russian systems where the quoted range is best case, not real world.
Yea the fact that they managed it with S-200/SA-5 was fucking wild. Big slow planes is what S-200 was designed for, but still it was near the limits of the systems range
Russia is a bit scary because they do have some nuclear weapons which certainly might still work. But you have to keep Russia in perspective.
The GDP of Russia is smaller than the GDP of the US state of Texas but has a land mass 25 times larger. They simply do not have the economy to wage the war they're waging. Nor do they have the economy to back up the threats they're making.
More interesting, the estimates are 300,000 casualties (dead and wounded), and up to a hlaf million of best, brightest and most mobile of military age left the country when the threat of being drafted happened. If we assume the population of males about 20-30 is maybe 8 million, that means they've lost 800,000 potential soldiers - 10% of their "target audience".
Someone once made a point that Russia is essentially a third-world country, with a few spots like Moscow and St. Petersburg that are first-world. For the rest, income, amenities, infrastructure and education are on par with the third world. Only oil money keeps it afloat.
Google co-founder called it Nigera with Snow.
If you look at all the crime, health, education, wealth inequality, AIDS and other preventable diseases, child rape/abuse, domestic abuse, corruption, etc. statistics... Russia is actually *worse* than Nigeria in almost everything.
I hate that people don't understand the definition of the "world" parties. 1st world is Western Bloc countries mostly aligned with NATO. 2nd World are Eastern Bloc countries, like those aligned within the Warsaw Pact. 3rd world relates to countries who aren't part of either group.
It has nothing to do with the countries GDP, just their political elegance.
Yeah, by the correct/original definitions Switzerland is a third-world country, and likely the richest one. Really throws a wrench into the modern interpretation that seems to just mean "relatively poor country full of brown people."
Russia is the Duchy of Muscovy where people live first world lives and a vast colonial hinterland where widows get paid off in frozen fish.
The sooner people remember that Russia is simply a rebrand of most of the Russian Empire (and they want the rest back) the sooner people will understand what they're dealing with.
> The GDP of Russia is smaller than the GDP of the US state of Texas but has a land mass 25 times larger.
I found this interesting so I looked up some stats ([with a quick search](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_GDP), don't blame me):
California
GDP: $3.86 trillion
GDP per capita: $99,120
Landmass: 423,970 km^2
Texas
GDP: $2.56 trillion
GDP per capita: $84,040
Landmass: 695,660 km2
New York
GDP: $2.15 trillion
GDP per capita: $109,970
Landmass: 141,299 km2
Europe
GDP: $18.98 trillion
GDP per capita: $56,970
Landmass: 10,014,000 km^2
Russia
GDP: $2.24 trillion
GDP per capita: $10,169
Landmass: 17,000,000 km^2
And the final fight: GDP per capita per km^2 (how good are you at turning land into a good living (or... how many market makers do you have counting beans per square kilometer)):
California: $0.234/km^2
Texas: $0.121/km^2
New York: $0.778/km^2
Europe: $0.0057/km^2
Russia: $0.0006/km^2
I'm not saying we should cower in fear of Russia's nuclear threats, because of the obvious nuclear blackmail.
Buuuut, I am also glad that the Biden admin/Western leaders are taking a somewhat cautious approach (though I totally empathize with how this would be extremely frustrating to Ukrainians... to say the least)
I only say this because looking on Reddit there is a lot of
"What are you going to do stab me?!"
- Guy who was stabbed
Energy going on.
Yea, Russia's nuclear threats are likely just words. But there is an ENORMOUS downside to miscalculating. Putin, at least to my reading, probably doesn't see much daylight between himself and the Russian state. That is, what is good for Putin is good for Russia, and more importantly what is bad for Putin is bad for Russia. If Putin becomes political destabilized as a result of the US giving the green light for Ukraine to use US weapons against Russia in Russia, I could see there's a real possibility Putin turning to nuclear weapons as a last resort if he felt personally threatened from loss of political power.
Beyond that, because of the tree of patronage he has setup, there are a lot of senior political and military leaders who would also be at risk if Putin were to be deposed... which means increases the likelihood of a nuclear weapon being used.
Again, not trying to suggest this is likely, or the US/West be paralyzed by fear. Just that, I'm glad that US/WEst aren't YOLOing their strategy.
Also, the U.S. actually has intelligence regarding Russian capabilities and better HUMINT on actual actors and motivations within the government.
They know a lot more about whether or not Russiaās just making empty threats than someone posting on Reddit.
Not just (potentially unreliable) intelligence from the CIA/NSA, the US & Russia inspected one another's arsenals under the [New START](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_START) treaty until Russia withdrew in February of 2023. That's recent enough that we *know* how well their arsenal is likely to function. It's not public knowledge, but it's not from spies, it's from recent inspections of Russia's nuclear stockpile by the US.
> Also, the U.S. actually has intelligence regarding Russian capabilities and better HUMINT on actual actors and motivations within the government.
This is why I generally don't engage with the endless debate on which weapons to give or what actions the US/West should take. I agree that we *should* do as much as we can, but I'm going to leave the details up to the people with the intel and experience to make the right choice!
> If Putin becomes political destabilized as a result of the US giving
Nuclear use by Putin is not the only threat in that situation.
Most terrorist groups are already present inside Russia, including the big name Muslim terrorist groups. If Russia starts to break up, we would have to stabilize or risk nuclear missiles spreading, not to mention N. Korea, Iran and their proxy's.
Putin is not suicidal. His life is the only one that does matter. He's bluffed at every "escalation" by the West because he knows forcing NATO involvement is suicide.
This is why nuclear coercion rarely, if ever, actually works. No one is going to believe youāre crazy enough to end the world, and if they *do* believe youāre that crazy, the rest of the world is going to do whatever it takes to take that ability away from you.
I noticed this too and had to look up the SU-47 because *surely* they made a SU-47, that has to be one of the sleekest fighters I've ever seen
Very glad they hit a SU-57 and not a SU-47Ā
NOOOO this is genuinely heartbreaking
I was going to look it up after work, thank you fellow redditor...only a true friend would tell you the news you don't want to hear :(
> Anyone know where they keep the remaining 4?
this is james bond level type secret intelligence. anybody who can actually report their location with any degree of accuracy is not going to be posting it on reddit lol.
that being said, they're probably in Russia.
It's a massive plane, can't exactly hide it if you want to fly it. You could probably find them with commercial satellite imagery. I'd start near Akhtubins, Astrakhan Oblast.
Social engineering is the best and easiest way to extract intel, why wouldnāt anyone post about it on reddit? Reddit is probably where they get most outreach
[Perhaps only 3 are in operation](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-a50-spy-plane-ukraine-hit-taganrog-1877630).
Which in the normal scheme of things means only 2 are likely to be flyable at any given time, if they are lucky. Maintenance has to occur and these are complex aircraft.
I know where they are not. Does that help? If enough people do the same we should be able to find them. Like Sherlock Holmes:
>"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
If we know everywhere they are not... Right?
But hey. Money well spent I'd say.
[The estimate of six remaining A-50s is from after shooting down the two that are referenced here.](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/02/25/7443616/)
Imagine a ship you don't fight other people with and is used for some other activity. You keep it safe so you "bling" it out with the best gear money can buy for every marginal gain you can get.
Then, in one momentary lapse in attention or judgement, your damage alarms goes off.
Russian lies about the techs capabilities by claiming higher than possible, US lies about tech by downplaying their capabilities. Thereās the āofficialā ranges of stuff like patriot and then the actual ranges. Lol
> US lies about tech by downplaying their capabilities.
Is it lies, or are things purposely downplayed for safety? Sure something could theoretically operate at some extreme degree, but it could be a safety issue, a danger to the equipment itself, or it could just not be *as* accurate/good. So you write down slightly lower numbers so things stay safe and make the equipment last longer, but if it's *required*, you can go above that.
To quote Scotty from Star Trek - "A good engineer is always a whee bit conservative on paper".
Just like the F-22's true potential can never be reached by a human pilot, it would kill them.
I would assume they knew the actual Patriot range as they've seen them fly before. Figuring out the energy available to it shouldn't be that hard.
But note that the Patriot system is multiple vehicles that do not actually have to be colocated. What I think happened here is that they knew where the missile control was but one of the launch vehicles sneaked closer. They **thought** they were just outside the envelope but the envelope moved. And a big, slow radar plane isn't going to fare well against a SAM.
The networked nature of integrated air defenses meant that the radar and control van didn't need to be anywhere close to a launcher that can get close to the front, ripple off some birds, and scoot within minutes.
Would have to be the German donated Patriot as itās the one battery that is highly mobile. Ukraine is innovating new ways to employ mobile air defence assets.
US should look into having more mobile patriot units
Yeah I remember at the start, a lot of experts saying drones aren't that important, reminds me of old general's in WW1 saying the same thing about planes.
I read a book maybe 10 years ago that I donāt recall, but it basically argued that the only solutions in the future is either a one world government or a collapse of civilization. Everyone is building deadlier and deadlier weapons and nukes are bound to spread eventually. If there are two different entities competing over limited resources, eventually it comes to blows.
What is ironic about civilization collapsing is that inevitably, the cyclic nature of humans determines we will be right back to where we started shortly after. Small groups will eventually become big tribes, will become countriesā¦.ect.
War never changes.
There was a bottleneck in the past where as few as 10,000 humans survived. The tech was different, and the reason for the collapse was different, but we died and we came back.
Whatās the quote?
āIām not sure what weapons WW3 will be fought with but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones.āā¦ or something to that effect.
I donāt know about that, weāve dug up much of the easily available and easy to use energy now
Complex civilisation would take a lot longer to get going again
I think the only thing that would get humans to co-exist peacefully is an outside entity that we could unite against. Kaiju or aliens or whatever. Something so "other" and hostile that even the most different humans would rather fight it than fight each other.
Sure, perhaps some sort of neurologic enhancement that makes us all smarter and more frustration tolerant and more able to work towards a long term goal; but I'm not sure the people that result from that sort of enhancement are humans anymore. They might be our evolutionary descendants though.
Not necessarily. Look at Europe, a non-stop theatre of war since the Roman Empire. Now one big happy family with even the same currency and no border guards. (And the morons in Britain who voted to leave are slowly realizing how stupid that was.)
The USA has plent of differences, but (so far) they work them out without fighting since 1865.
The joke goes that "workers of the world unit! You have nothing to lose but your chains... and your TVs and nice cars and houses..." Economic success removes the urgency for war; disparity ensures war happens.
Apparently the first invading force from Russia was looting Ukraine houses for flat screen TV's, washers and dryers, scooters, even tractors... all stuff they could not afford back home but more economically successful Ukraine did have.
100% my thoughts exactly. Itās going to take something existential for the majority of people to work together.
Covid is a bad example. I mean, itās hard to ignore the giant monsters demolition cities
Heck, not even considering war entirely, that premise may prove correct.
The ability of our planet to sustain a population of 8.1+ Billion humans is collapsing in front of out eyes. Within just a decade or two, parts of the world will become too hot for people to live in. The uber rich on top of the pyramid will be vacationing in the arctic soon, like out of Phil Dick novel. Some entire nations will be flooded over. Our food supplies will collapse, new diseases and fungus, and so on. 1000s of species going extinct every year.
There is no real global authority that can deal with environment collapse, or the systematic underlying economic issues that are the cause.
I'm Canadian. On a global scale, it hardly even matters what policies or laws on pollution we follow when our population is 41,000,000, meanwhile 1,410,000,000 are Indian and 1,400,000,000
are Chinese. We are 1/100 the population of either.
Who knows? The optimist in me thinks that only global nuclear war, an alien invasion, a meteor strike, or the environmental collapse which is upcoming may be the only disasters large enough to force humanity the choice: either cooperate, evolve past the nation-state era, or perish as a species.
Of course, we could adopt the policies of Saskatchewan's premier - instead of Canada doing its part to limit carbon emissions we should keep pumping out the carbon and instead demand the bigger countries cut emissions.
The thing is, populations are levelling off and even shrinking, everywhere except Africa. China has reached peak population, India is almost there. South Korea, at the extreme, has less than 1 birth per female, meaning a massive population implosion. Japan and Russia are in the same boat. Once people are rich enough, childrena are a cost not a benefit - you gotta really want them. USA and Canada are only increasing because of immigration. By 2100 world population should be dropping - if we can hang on that long.
We are already seeing the effects of climate change - unrest in the equatorial regions, people fleeing en masse to Europe (crossing the Mediterranean) or to the USA across the Rio Grande. This is only going to get worse. Border problems are apparently number 1 or 2 election concern in the USA. Heat domes in the US southwest. 50Ā°C in New Delhi. (122Ā°F) Changing weather patters aggravating droughts and floods. Even the wildfires in western Canada.
may you live in interesting times...
The armchair generals saying that at the beginning of the Ukraine war clearly missed the Second Nagorno-Karabakh war. Drones were key to Azerbaijan's victory.
The Second Nagorno-Karabakh War wasn't really reported on in the US, and what little that was said was basically this area is at war as much as the Middle East and West Africa so it doesn't matter.
Throughout modern history the military leadership has always been stubborn about the adoption of new technology, even if it can be game changing. British officers didn't let airmen have parachutes because they thought it was cowardly. US officers resisted the adoption of smaller caliber rifles post ww2. The US stubbornly continued use of the Iowa class battleships up until the 90s despite them being essentially useless in anything except shore bombardment in areas with no anti ship weapons.
It would've been hilarious to see men dropping grenades and bombs from the back seat of a bi-plane. While trailing a banner behind it that says, "Your Ad Could Be Here!!!" in German and French.
> I think the whole world is studying this war intensely.
This is exactly why the Spanish Civil War was so important. The Nazis used it to field-test weapons and strategies, and doing so is a big part of why they beat shit out of Europe at the beginning of WWII. The allies weren't paying as close attention, and countries like France was caught off-guard using WWI-tier tactics/equipment to defend against WWII tactics/equipment.
I think the idea of drone warfare is quite scary, there are now even more pushed to replace fighter jets with fighter dronesā¦ really some skynet shit right there.
>US should look into having more mobile patriot units
The US doesn't really need to. Much like the importance of small drones this is a feature of this war because neither side can control the air. NATO doesn't do trench warfare, they take the sky and laugh at you trying to hold the dirt.
US Officials talked about it in a latest military convention. It was a german one, america is quite impressed by that btw. Ukrainian crews trained maneuvers like this around the clock when they were stationed in germany.
She specifically called it a SAMbush.
There was a video of an interview with some antiair-lady from the US military - where she made quite a fangirl impression talking about how Ukraine is using their antiair assets.
There is a political issue though. Germany was angry after Ukraine used the Patriot battery to shoot down a few helis over Bryansk (northern frontline). And asked not to use its batteries to strike inside Russia. A-50 was shot down like a year later over Russia.
According to certain statements on the recent Fires Symposium, the Germans seem to have specifically trained the Ukrainians to use their mobile Patriots to use them for "SAMbushing", waking the teams up in the middle of the night with marching orders etc.
or watch the interview with the US Colonel this article is based on. The article links to the video.
She says at ~1:30 that it was indeed the highly mobile German provided Patriot system that Ukrainians used to shoot down the A-50.
No problem it happens given the amount of events that are similar or that have overlapped. Its difficult even for the people who have followed the war daily to remember it all perfectly and not get mixed up
> Clemente highlighted the historic nature of this strike, stating, āI havenāt seen [anything like this] in 22 years of being an air defender.ā
Well, because this is more or less the only high tech war conducted since forever.
Radar planes arenāt something you can buy at the used car lot. A tremendous amount of procurement is required. Not just in parts, but in engineering and training as well.
I'm pretty sure once you're locked, you're fucked without jamming given the kind of system patriot is. The missile Flys by ground based radar and only actively seeks with onboard once it's close right?
That means it only sees the missile but not the lock it self, since scanning radar is easily detected due to its wide range?
Or does this system still need scanning and fire control separately and then switches to active homing?
The US are probably studying the effectiveness of their patriot missile launcher in Ukraine and any failure or bug would be ironed out for the next generation of launchers.
Ukraine has been Frankensteining SAM's together from the new stuff they've been getting from NATO and the old soviet stuff left over from the cold war.
Ukraine took a risk moving a Patriot battery that close to the front, but it paid off. Pretty sure Russia now keeps their radar planes much further back.
Still it didn't help them. Ukraine shot down another one way way out of Patriot range shortly after that one.
It was a Patriot launcher strapped to sea drone š
See this is why we should be careful of slippery slopes! First your innocently strapping knives on Rhombas, and next thing you know your strapping patriot missiles to unmanned drones!
...wait, people are past just strapping on googly eyes?
They're called "Doombas".
Well yeah, the fighting is in the Donbass reagion.
No, Donbass! Doombas arent from Donbas š¤¦āāļø
Goombas! Got it!
#š
I like the Claymore edition that plays "Welcome to the Jungle" when activated. https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1943774 https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/doomba
The googly eyes are so the missile can see where it is going. They are still critical
*so the missile can see where it isn't
That way it knows where it is.
I wanna see Ukraine strap googly eyes on their drones now. Even if itās just for a meme photoš
Yeah, the other day I caught my daughter strapping a SA-7 MANPADs to an autonomous jetski. I should have suspected something when she started dropping tennis balls on the dog with a quadrotor... I thought it was innocent, but I guess that's how it always starts!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Now I want to make a Roton cover for my rhoomba and a skeletor hoodie for my cat.
Just wait until they start training Lynx's on Rhoombas. Cats and AI Robots will take over from humanity
I legitimately can't tell if this is serious.
Ukraine claimed it was an S-200 modified for extended range for the second one.
Imagine losing your fancy AWACS plane to your own missile from the late 60's
When you put it that way....... big oof.
Serbs shot down F-117A with S-125 missle , designed in 1961 . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-125_Neva/Pechora And ZoltƔn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani On battlefield (well sky too) - never undestimate resourceful and smart adversary.
I am disappointed it wasn't a shark with a frickin' laser on its head.
If it was out of range how did they get it?
Speculated to be with an outdated S-200 system. Much less capable of engaging maneuvering threats like fighters or fast threats like ballistic missiles, but might be able to hit a big slow AWACS plane from long range.
The Libyans apparently tried to chuck a missile at ether a tanker or a CC aircraft years ago, (before the 2011 shit) by timing the holding pattern. They missed, but it was damn close from my understanding. Wonder if the Ukrainians did something similar with the not Patriot missile.
>by timing the holding pattern. I think that's one of the reasons that guy in the Balkans shot down a Nighthawk back in the 90s. They kept flying the same route over and over again until a smart colonel in charge of a SAM battery still using technology utilizing vacuum tubes shot one down.
Kinda. The Serbians knew the nighthawk flew in a particular pattern but they still couldn't get a lock. They waited until the bay doors opened which changes the aircraft stealth signature and managed to get a firing solution.
Thatāll never happen again either. Until that incident the nighthawk had bomb doors that would open and close normally. They were upgraded, and all subsequent stealth aircraft have systems to open the doors for fractions of a second to deploy ammo.
Likely a result of the franken sam system. Possibly guidance provided by Patriot radars to s200s which is crazy and says a lot about the adaptability of US systems
I've long suspected that they has US help in making the S-x00 systems not totally shit with better tech
Somebody in 2004 wrote a 270 page analysis of possible S-x00 system upgrades and the Pentagon just dusted it off.
I remember hearing that Russian jets/military planes donāt carry as many countermeasure charges as western planes. I tried to confirm this but donāt see any definitive proof. In such a gigantic and slow aircraft, running out of countermeasures is basically a death sentence, even with a 1960ās era SAM.
The brass traded the countermeasures for vodka and caviar. It's not like they're the ones flying the planes.
Patriot range quotes assume a maneuvering target but if you launch on the most efficient path at a target moving in a predictable path and you program it to fly at a speed maximizing range, it can out perform the quoted range, apparently significantly. Contrast this to Russian systems where the quoted range is best case, not real world.
They have a small stock of Soviet-era surface to air missiles with greater range than Patriot missiles.
That was never revealed.
Pictures also showed ukraine has mounted some sort of aa missiles to naval drones. Most likely an s200 though.
Think they were doing that cause they learned choppers were starting to notice the drones so they looked at em and said "bet."
the "official" range :P
Yea the fact that they managed it with S-200/SA-5 was fucking wild. Big slow planes is what S-200 was designed for, but still it was near the limits of the systems range
I just hope the operator said "You're fired!" before pressing the button at them.
and nuclear war didnt start? How is that possible
It's almost like russian nuclear threats do not mean much
Is potato
And rutabaga.
I dunno man, potatoes have depth.
Russia is a bit scary because they do have some nuclear weapons which certainly might still work. But you have to keep Russia in perspective. The GDP of Russia is smaller than the GDP of the US state of Texas but has a land mass 25 times larger. They simply do not have the economy to wage the war they're waging. Nor do they have the economy to back up the threats they're making.
More interesting, the estimates are 300,000 casualties (dead and wounded), and up to a hlaf million of best, brightest and most mobile of military age left the country when the threat of being drafted happened. If we assume the population of males about 20-30 is maybe 8 million, that means they've lost 800,000 potential soldiers - 10% of their "target audience". Someone once made a point that Russia is essentially a third-world country, with a few spots like Moscow and St. Petersburg that are first-world. For the rest, income, amenities, infrastructure and education are on par with the third world. Only oil money keeps it afloat.
The peasants are the ones fighting, anyone with basic money can bribe their way out.
For a while.
Last I saw yesterday the casualties were up past 520k, once you account for DNR/LNR deaths and Wagner
>Someone once made a point that Russia is essentially a third-world country I find this comment amusing.
I mean yeah Russia is a 2nd world country with 3rd world problems
Its like some sort of second world country
Google co-founder called it Nigera with Snow. If you look at all the crime, health, education, wealth inequality, AIDS and other preventable diseases, child rape/abuse, domestic abuse, corruption, etc. statistics... Russia is actually *worse* than Nigeria in almost everything.
I hate that people don't understand the definition of the "world" parties. 1st world is Western Bloc countries mostly aligned with NATO. 2nd World are Eastern Bloc countries, like those aligned within the Warsaw Pact. 3rd world relates to countries who aren't part of either group. It has nothing to do with the countries GDP, just their political elegance.
Yeah, by the correct/original definitions Switzerland is a third-world country, and likely the richest one. Really throws a wrench into the modern interpretation that seems to just mean "relatively poor country full of brown people."
Well, I think Switzerland is Western-aligned. It's part of the Schengen area at least.
I was always fond of, "Russia is just a gas station run by the mafia."
Russia is the Duchy of Muscovy where people live first world lives and a vast colonial hinterland where widows get paid off in frozen fish. The sooner people remember that Russia is simply a rebrand of most of the Russian Empire (and they want the rest back) the sooner people will understand what they're dealing with.
> The GDP of Russia is smaller than the GDP of the US state of Texas but has a land mass 25 times larger. I found this interesting so I looked up some stats ([with a quick search](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_GDP), don't blame me): California GDP: $3.86 trillion GDP per capita: $99,120 Landmass: 423,970 km^2 Texas GDP: $2.56 trillion GDP per capita: $84,040 Landmass: 695,660 km2 New York GDP: $2.15 trillion GDP per capita: $109,970 Landmass: 141,299 km2 Europe GDP: $18.98 trillion GDP per capita: $56,970 Landmass: 10,014,000 km^2 Russia GDP: $2.24 trillion GDP per capita: $10,169 Landmass: 17,000,000 km^2 And the final fight: GDP per capita per km^2 (how good are you at turning land into a good living (or... how many market makers do you have counting beans per square kilometer)): California: $0.234/km^2 Texas: $0.121/km^2 New York: $0.778/km^2 Europe: $0.0057/km^2 Russia: $0.0006/km^2
I'm not saying we should cower in fear of Russia's nuclear threats, because of the obvious nuclear blackmail. Buuuut, I am also glad that the Biden admin/Western leaders are taking a somewhat cautious approach (though I totally empathize with how this would be extremely frustrating to Ukrainians... to say the least) I only say this because looking on Reddit there is a lot of "What are you going to do stab me?!" - Guy who was stabbed Energy going on. Yea, Russia's nuclear threats are likely just words. But there is an ENORMOUS downside to miscalculating. Putin, at least to my reading, probably doesn't see much daylight between himself and the Russian state. That is, what is good for Putin is good for Russia, and more importantly what is bad for Putin is bad for Russia. If Putin becomes political destabilized as a result of the US giving the green light for Ukraine to use US weapons against Russia in Russia, I could see there's a real possibility Putin turning to nuclear weapons as a last resort if he felt personally threatened from loss of political power. Beyond that, because of the tree of patronage he has setup, there are a lot of senior political and military leaders who would also be at risk if Putin were to be deposed... which means increases the likelihood of a nuclear weapon being used. Again, not trying to suggest this is likely, or the US/West be paralyzed by fear. Just that, I'm glad that US/WEst aren't YOLOing their strategy.
Also, the U.S. actually has intelligence regarding Russian capabilities and better HUMINT on actual actors and motivations within the government. They know a lot more about whether or not Russiaās just making empty threats than someone posting on Reddit.
Not just (potentially unreliable) intelligence from the CIA/NSA, the US & Russia inspected one another's arsenals under the [New START](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_START) treaty until Russia withdrew in February of 2023. That's recent enough that we *know* how well their arsenal is likely to function. It's not public knowledge, but it's not from spies, it's from recent inspections of Russia's nuclear stockpile by the US.
> Also, the U.S. actually has intelligence regarding Russian capabilities and better HUMINT on actual actors and motivations within the government. This is why I generally don't engage with the endless debate on which weapons to give or what actions the US/West should take. I agree that we *should* do as much as we can, but I'm going to leave the details up to the people with the intel and experience to make the right choice!
> If Putin becomes political destabilized as a result of the US giving Nuclear use by Putin is not the only threat in that situation. Most terrorist groups are already present inside Russia, including the big name Muslim terrorist groups. If Russia starts to break up, we would have to stabilize or risk nuclear missiles spreading, not to mention N. Korea, Iran and their proxy's.
*Putin* may be suicidal but the entire Kremlin ain't.
Putin is not suicidal. His life is the only one that does matter. He's bluffed at every "escalation" by the West because he knows forcing NATO involvement is suicide.
Someone in the Kremlin needs to have Putin slip on his tea. Where's Captain Marco Ramius when we need him?!
This is why nuclear coercion rarely, if ever, actually works. No one is going to believe youāre crazy enough to end the world, and if they *do* believe youāre that crazy, the rest of the world is going to do whatever it takes to take that ability away from you.
They're boiling the Russian frog..... small calculated escalations so they don't freak out
Radar plane? Imagine the operators in thereā¦ā¦hey Ivan, whatās this thing coming at us really fast on our radar?
āThereās a red thingyā¦ coming towards the green thingyā¦ I think weāre the green thingy.ā āAppropriate Galaxy Quest reference.
Miners not minors!
By Grabthar's hammer... what a savings.
In a movie chock full of absolutely quotable quotes, I think that's my favorite, made so of course by Alan Rickman's delivery.
IS THERE AIR?! YOU DON'T KNOW!
Letās get out of here before one of those things kills Guy!
"Follow up question: is it bad if the red thingy hits the green thingy?"
Since red plus green equals yellow, Iād think it is only moderately bad. Might be a little rough, but we should be good.
Isnāt it brown? They should be shitting themselves instead.
Less bad since your shields should be up under yellow alert.
[Yo!](https://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/23000000/Sam-Rockwell-sam-rockwell-23073790-500-291.gif)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Hopefully us EW engineers can keep you safe :)
There's a reason why radars that track missiles in flight put missiles on an intercept with your position at the very top of the priority tree.
You ever get home to your loved ones and just scream a dial-up tone at them?
That sounds horrible. Ever thought bout a different line of work?
"Don't worry, our air defense is asleep" Maybe that isn't *our* air defense.
āProbably a bird, how should I know?ā š¬š¤·āāļø
Russia had 6, A-50s. The loss of 2, especially their crews, is *massive*. Anyone know where they keep the remaining 4?
Far from Ukraine for sure.
Did you see the deep strike on an Su-47? Far probably isn't far enough.
Su-57 not 47
I noticed this too and had to look up the SU-47 because *surely* they made a SU-47, that has to be one of the sleekest fighters I've ever seen Very glad they hit a SU-57 and not a SU-47Ā
The only SU-47 ever built is sitting outside uncovered in a plane graveyard. https://i.redd.it/9bwkkks62ap91.png
āIf I ever won the lottery, I wonāt tell anyone. But there will be signsā¦ā
Wait there can't be only one, I've seen so many in ace combat! And the SU-57 can't be a glorified parade float after how well it did in top gun!
Well the SU-57s were matched up against F18s. If it was F35s the movie wouldāve been shorter than the trailer
NOOOO this is genuinely heartbreaking I was going to look it up after work, thank you fellow redditor...only a true friend would tell you the news you don't want to hear :(
Sukhoi makes some ridiculously pretty fighters. Not the most effective, but great at airshows!
They should have gotten into aircraft production for private individuals not militaries. They would've been bigger than boeing!
> Anyone know where they keep the remaining 4? this is james bond level type secret intelligence. anybody who can actually report their location with any degree of accuracy is not going to be posting it on reddit lol. that being said, they're probably in Russia.
That or ~~leaking intel on~~ playing War Thunder
What Iām curious about is if they can even use them in a useful manner because they are clearly very susceptible to being shot down
It's a massive plane, can't exactly hide it if you want to fly it. You could probably find them with commercial satellite imagery. I'd start near Akhtubins, Astrakhan Oblast.
Then we check the Warthunder forums!
no it's not lol they are probably visible on satellite photos
Social engineering is the best and easiest way to extract intel, why wouldnāt anyone post about it on reddit? Reddit is probably where they get most outreach
[Perhaps only 3 are in operation](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-a50-spy-plane-ukraine-hit-taganrog-1877630). Which in the normal scheme of things means only 2 are likely to be flyable at any given time, if they are lucky. Maintenance has to occur and these are complex aircraft.
I know where they are not. Does that help? If enough people do the same we should be able to find them. Like Sherlock Holmes: >"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." If we know everywhere they are not... Right? But hey. Money well spent I'd say.
Good point. There definitely aren't any in my house, if that helps.Ā
That's exactly what you'd say if they were, though
[The estimate of six remaining A-50s is from after shooting down the two that are referenced here.](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/02/25/7443616/)
Nice try, Zelenskyy
I wonder how brown their pants were. They'd have the sensors and training to know they're being illuminated by something blingy.
Do you play EVE? Haven't heard blingy outside of that gameĀ
7o
Brave?
As someone who spent their time mining mostly in EVE that blingy was indeed pant shit inducing.
When you're in a blinged out Hulk and the stealth bomber uncloaks...
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Imagine a ship you don't fight other people with and is used for some other activity. You keep it safe so you "bling" it out with the best gear money can buy for every marginal gain you can get. Then, in one momentary lapse in attention or judgement, your damage alarms goes off.
There's video. They were spamming flares and chaff for minutes straight.
Russians and votniks find out Patriot range on google is not the actual patriot range.
Russian lies about the techs capabilities by claiming higher than possible, US lies about tech by downplaying their capabilities. Thereās the āofficialā ranges of stuff like patriot and then the actual ranges. Lol
> US lies about tech by downplaying their capabilities. Is it lies, or are things purposely downplayed for safety? Sure something could theoretically operate at some extreme degree, but it could be a safety issue, a danger to the equipment itself, or it could just not be *as* accurate/good. So you write down slightly lower numbers so things stay safe and make the equipment last longer, but if it's *required*, you can go above that. To quote Scotty from Star Trek - "A good engineer is always a whee bit conservative on paper". Just like the F-22's true potential can never be reached by a human pilot, it would kill them.
š¤«
I would assume they knew the actual Patriot range as they've seen them fly before. Figuring out the energy available to it shouldn't be that hard. But note that the Patriot system is multiple vehicles that do not actually have to be colocated. What I think happened here is that they knew where the missile control was but one of the launch vehicles sneaked closer. They **thought** they were just outside the envelope but the envelope moved. And a big, slow radar plane isn't going to fare well against a SAM.
Weren't they more playing faster and looser with the Patriots than recommended?
The networked nature of integrated air defenses meant that the radar and control van didn't need to be anywhere close to a launcher that can get close to the front, ripple off some birds, and scoot within minutes.
Would have to be the German donated Patriot as itās the one battery that is highly mobile. Ukraine is innovating new ways to employ mobile air defence assets. US should look into having more mobile patriot units
I think the whole world is studying this war intensely. First war with heavy drone use by both sides and an actual land war in the 21st century.
Yeah I remember at the start, a lot of experts saying drones aren't that important, reminds me of old general's in WW1 saying the same thing about planes.
will be lots of innovation that comes from this war. Hopefully more good than bad but we all know how humans are.
I read a book maybe 10 years ago that I donāt recall, but it basically argued that the only solutions in the future is either a one world government or a collapse of civilization. Everyone is building deadlier and deadlier weapons and nukes are bound to spread eventually. If there are two different entities competing over limited resources, eventually it comes to blows.
What is ironic about civilization collapsing is that inevitably, the cyclic nature of humans determines we will be right back to where we started shortly after. Small groups will eventually become big tribes, will become countriesā¦.ect. War never changes.
All of this has happened before...
Tell us more
There was a bottleneck in the past where as few as 10,000 humans survived. The tech was different, and the reason for the collapse was different, but we died and we came back.
1000, actually, so even more dire circumstances. Nuclear war would set us back massively but humanity would survive.
Whatās the quote? āIām not sure what weapons WW3 will be fought with but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones.āā¦ or something to that effect.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Newton.
I donāt know about that, weāve dug up much of the easily available and easy to use energy now Complex civilisation would take a lot longer to get going again
I think the only thing that would get humans to co-exist peacefully is an outside entity that we could unite against. Kaiju or aliens or whatever. Something so "other" and hostile that even the most different humans would rather fight it than fight each other. Sure, perhaps some sort of neurologic enhancement that makes us all smarter and more frustration tolerant and more able to work towards a long term goal; but I'm not sure the people that result from that sort of enhancement are humans anymore. They might be our evolutionary descendants though.
Not necessarily. Look at Europe, a non-stop theatre of war since the Roman Empire. Now one big happy family with even the same currency and no border guards. (And the morons in Britain who voted to leave are slowly realizing how stupid that was.) The USA has plent of differences, but (so far) they work them out without fighting since 1865. The joke goes that "workers of the world unit! You have nothing to lose but your chains... and your TVs and nice cars and houses..." Economic success removes the urgency for war; disparity ensures war happens. Apparently the first invading force from Russia was looting Ukraine houses for flat screen TV's, washers and dryers, scooters, even tractors... all stuff they could not afford back home but more economically successful Ukraine did have.
100% my thoughts exactly. Itās going to take something existential for the majority of people to work together. Covid is a bad example. I mean, itās hard to ignore the giant monsters demolition cities
Heck, not even considering war entirely, that premise may prove correct. The ability of our planet to sustain a population of 8.1+ Billion humans is collapsing in front of out eyes. Within just a decade or two, parts of the world will become too hot for people to live in. The uber rich on top of the pyramid will be vacationing in the arctic soon, like out of Phil Dick novel. Some entire nations will be flooded over. Our food supplies will collapse, new diseases and fungus, and so on. 1000s of species going extinct every year. There is no real global authority that can deal with environment collapse, or the systematic underlying economic issues that are the cause. I'm Canadian. On a global scale, it hardly even matters what policies or laws on pollution we follow when our population is 41,000,000, meanwhile 1,410,000,000 are Indian and 1,400,000,000 are Chinese. We are 1/100 the population of either. Who knows? The optimist in me thinks that only global nuclear war, an alien invasion, a meteor strike, or the environmental collapse which is upcoming may be the only disasters large enough to force humanity the choice: either cooperate, evolve past the nation-state era, or perish as a species.
Of course, we could adopt the policies of Saskatchewan's premier - instead of Canada doing its part to limit carbon emissions we should keep pumping out the carbon and instead demand the bigger countries cut emissions. The thing is, populations are levelling off and even shrinking, everywhere except Africa. China has reached peak population, India is almost there. South Korea, at the extreme, has less than 1 birth per female, meaning a massive population implosion. Japan and Russia are in the same boat. Once people are rich enough, childrena are a cost not a benefit - you gotta really want them. USA and Canada are only increasing because of immigration. By 2100 world population should be dropping - if we can hang on that long. We are already seeing the effects of climate change - unrest in the equatorial regions, people fleeing en masse to Europe (crossing the Mediterranean) or to the USA across the Rio Grande. This is only going to get worse. Border problems are apparently number 1 or 2 election concern in the USA. Heat domes in the US southwest. 50Ā°C in New Delhi. (122Ā°F) Changing weather patters aggravating droughts and floods. Even the wildfires in western Canada. may you live in interesting times...
The armchair generals saying that at the beginning of the Ukraine war clearly missed the Second Nagorno-Karabakh war. Drones were key to Azerbaijan's victory.
The Second Nagorno-Karabakh War wasn't really reported on in the US, and what little that was said was basically this area is at war as much as the Middle East and West Africa so it doesn't matter.
Throughout modern history the military leadership has always been stubborn about the adoption of new technology, even if it can be game changing. British officers didn't let airmen have parachutes because they thought it was cowardly. US officers resisted the adoption of smaller caliber rifles post ww2. The US stubbornly continued use of the Iowa class battleships up until the 90s despite them being essentially useless in anything except shore bombardment in areas with no anti ship weapons.
It would've been hilarious to see men dropping grenades and bombs from the back seat of a bi-plane. While trailing a banner behind it that says, "Your Ad Could Be Here!!!" in German and French.
You see the autonomous tank the US released footage of!?
> I think the whole world is studying this war intensely. This is exactly why the Spanish Civil War was so important. The Nazis used it to field-test weapons and strategies, and doing so is a big part of why they beat shit out of Europe at the beginning of WWII. The allies weren't paying as close attention, and countries like France was caught off-guard using WWI-tier tactics/equipment to defend against WWII tactics/equipment.
I think the idea of drone warfare is quite scary, there are now even more pushed to replace fighter jets with fighter dronesā¦ really some skynet shit right there.
>US should look into having more mobile patriot units The US doesn't really need to. Much like the importance of small drones this is a feature of this war because neither side can control the air. NATO doesn't do trench warfare, they take the sky and laugh at you trying to hold the dirt.
US Officials talked about it in a latest military convention. It was a german one, america is quite impressed by that btw. Ukrainian crews trained maneuvers like this around the clock when they were stationed in germany. She specifically called it a SAMbush.
I look forward to seeing a drone with patriot coming in from both directions using the new the SAMWich manoeuvre
There was a video of an interview with some antiair-lady from the US military - where she made quite a fangirl impression talking about how Ukraine is using their antiair assets.
That sounds really interesting. Do you remember where you saw it?
What you want is a tracked launcher that can take one missile 20-40km further ahead and still be linked with the patriot battery
There is a political issue though. Germany was angry after Ukraine used the Patriot battery to shoot down a few helis over Bryansk (northern frontline). And asked not to use its batteries to strike inside Russia. A-50 was shot down like a year later over Russia.
Germany gave them the okay to use it in Russian territory since the first event. Not really a political issue now.
According to certain statements on the recent Fires Symposium, the Germans seem to have specifically trained the Ukrainians to use their mobile Patriots to use them for "SAMbushing", waking the teams up in the middle of the night with marching orders etc.
or watch the interview with the US Colonel this article is based on. The article links to the video. She says at ~1:30 that it was indeed the highly mobile German provided Patriot system that Ukrainians used to shoot down the A-50.
Ukraine: S-200 Russia: We shout it ourself while trying to intercept S-200 US: It was actually Patriot
The reason for confusion is because of 2 shootdowns in a short time frame. January A-50 shootdown = Patriot February A-50 shootdown = S-200
Oh thanks.
No problem it happens given the amount of events that are similar or that have overlapped. Its difficult even for the people who have followed the war daily to remember it all perfectly and not get mixed up
Buy one, get one free!
> Clemente highlighted the historic nature of this strike, stating, āI havenāt seen [anything like this] in 22 years of being an air defender.ā Well, because this is more or less the only high tech war conducted since forever.
You figure the radar plane would have used its radar to see it coming
They most certainly saw it coming, but big slow radar plane can do nothing but wait for the inevitable.
They saw it coming. They were spamming flares and chaff for multiple minutes and flying away from it.
Noice!~
Damn, corruption really make the Russian army more incompetent than before. Truly a shadow of its former self (USSR).
For once we used a missile to take down a target that cost more than the missile.
War is Hell. Maybe Russia should withdraw?
Well done
send em more patriots
Memo to Putin: "HA-HA!!" \~ Nelson
Radar planes arenāt something you can buy at the used car lot. A tremendous amount of procurement is required. Not just in parts, but in engineering and training as well.
I'm pretty sure once you're locked, you're fucked without jamming given the kind of system patriot is. The missile Flys by ground based radar and only actively seeks with onboard once it's close right? That means it only sees the missile but not the lock it self, since scanning radar is easily detected due to its wide range? Or does this system still need scanning and fire control separately and then switches to active homing?
The US are probably studying the effectiveness of their patriot missile launcher in Ukraine and any failure or bug would be ironed out for the next generation of launchers.
Itās also great for business as other countries see how effective the weapons can be in real world situations
Radar planes are supposed to enable attacking force to take control of sky but Russia failed miserably here (thankfully.)
I wish we were allowed to do it sooner. So many lives are already lost. At least Kharkiv is safer now
The radar plane is not as good as they say! Commrad, you missed the blip on the screen!
Ukraine has been Frankensteining SAM's together from the new stuff they've been getting from NATO and the old soviet stuff left over from the cold war.
ukraine MacGyver things up to fuck the shit out of Russians.
Good!!!!!
Send more Patriots.
A plane is just a bigger and slower missile for the patriot system