Not it did not. It did for military and certain civil services and it is still in place as a some sort of dress code. In fact it comes from Ottoman period tradition. Servants of the state are not allowed to have beards. Growing a beard was among the proofs that Prince Mustafa was considered in rebellion to the Sultan. Because only the monarch was allowed to have one.
No, TĆ¼rkiye banned headscarves and beards only for students and those working in government and military institutions. If you were a civilian who did not work in these jobs, these prohibitions did not cover you.
I dont know if it's written in Turkey's constitution, but the Turkish military is also considered the secular "watchdogs" of the country. I dont know if they are obligated to act, but if they feel/determine that the government is becoming non-secular they throw a coup to protect the secular democratic institution
My father was basically a us diplomat with Turkey. A ton of his friends were arrested on fake charges. During the ācoupā the wives of many of his friends there were messaging him for help, but then would say āthey are at the doorā so he would block their number cause now the government had the phone and he could never trust the messages sent from them. He said it was the hardest thing heās ever done. He has helped a bunch of the people who got out get asylum but heās heartbroken he couldnāt help more people out.
> I dont know if it's written in Turkey's constitution
No, but over time they came to consider that their responsibility. Most recently they forced Prime Minister Erbakan to step down in 97 not through force, but simply through the credible threat of military action, because he was thought to be interfering with the separation of church and state.
Needless to say, Erdogan has blown way past everything all the other guys did, and completely defanged the military in the process.
I have a friend from Tajikistan and she has told me that if you try to go out in public with a large beard, law enforcement can literally pin you to the ground and shave your face on the spot. They take those kinds of laws very seriously, and for good reason.
Edit: just to clarify, I don't think there are any laws against having big beards. But especially with younger men it's very frowned upon. And obviously getting force shaved on the street doesn't happen to everyone, but it's a thing that can happen, especially if you've been warned before.
To be honest I think it's more younger men who they're worried about being radicalized that it happens to. I don't think there is actually any law about it, but more a social faux pas.
yes itās uncommon for young men to have beards. iāve personally been stopped by the police for having one, but i paid a fine and had no further issues
My Indian friend is married to a Tajik woman. I went to their wedding, they are not religious people at all. They don't care about Islam and openly drink as well. Among the best people I have come across, warm and friendly. The only thing is they can only speak Russian, Tajik and Farsi so it's hard to have much of a conversation with them.
Edit: It's been pointed to me that Tajik and Farsi are the same language or are similar languages.
Oh yeah, i was meaning from a globalist/maximum speakers view. If you dont plan on going very far distance-wise then other languages become much more useful.
English is the universal default language of international business. You'll find English in pretty much every country because of it, even if it's just in print/signs
English, Spanish and mandarin cover a way bigger spectrum of language families then Russian, Tajik and Farsi.
eg.: Speaking English and German is way easier then speaking English and Mandarin. As both German and English are Germanic languages
German is hard due to grammar rules. I would use Swedish as an example since Swedish is closer grammatically to English while having a lot of shared vocabulary
Eh, donāt believe it. Swedish has genders, complicated plurals, cool but complicated suffix definitive form. Easy to speak Swedish poorly, but it is plenty difficult to actually learn it.
Some people have a gift for languages. I knew someone who was Greek and grew up in Alexandria, Egypt. He learned Greek and Arabic as a child. He married a French woman living in Australia, from whom he picked up French and English. Later, they moved to South Africa where she had been born. He picked up Afrikaans there.
So, five languages total. And, AFAIK, he never took lessons to learn any of them. Amazing. :)
Yes in short.
You are a dialect until you force others to accept you as your own language.
Like, there's less difference in a lot of cases between Norweigan, Danish and Swedish than there is between say a London accent and a Scots "dialect".
But they ahve their own identities that everyone agrees on so they are languages, whereas scotland doesn't have that power.
Or the differences between Serbian, Croatian etc. The serbs and the Croats will say they are different languages when they are being nationalistic.
But plenty of serbs and croats will admit they are *very* similar.
It's the same language dude lol. Any Iranian can easily communicate with a tajik and vice versa
source: literally just got back from Tajikistan (I'm iranian)
From what I can find Tajik is a local variant of Persian. Wikipedia seems to indicate that Persian and Farsi is the same and that local variants like Tajik are similar enough to enable easy communication. So from my understanding that is similar to an American speaking English and American English or Texan and English.
I donāt know how similar Tajik is to the Farsi spoken in Iran, but itās definitely mutually intelligible with other Farsi dialects. I know a speaker of Afghan Farsi and a speaker of Tajik and they could understand each other very well when the other was talking on the phone in their native language.
I'd have said more like English and Scots.
The same phrase:
Tajik: meboshed, Todjik man kame medonom
Farsi: beboshed, Farsi je kame belodom
So you can see how they would be intelligible but probably more different than American and English English. Also Tajiki is written in Cyrillic and Farsi is written in a Persian script
I also speak 4-5 languages, so something like this is pretty common in South Asia and Central Asia. The point was that I didn't know any of their languages, should've phrased it better.
My friend's wife speaks some English since she got her masters in India, her family and friends only know a few English phrases. I have been meeting them on and off for a few years. So I got familiar with their culture. She has also invited me to her country a few times. I also picked up some Russian basics from travelling to Kazakhstan.
That's the thing people forget about the Islamic world, it's incredibly diverse. There's a world of difference between a middle class person in Casablanca and someone from a tribal region of Pakistan.
There has been a struggle for the soul of Islamic civilisation for centuries. The ultimate culture war.
Tajiks do follow Islam but with my interactions with them they seem to be culturally more Russian or Persian. Most of them behave like atheists. I don't even know if it's apt to call them Islamic
It's a bit like Catholicism. You claim to be Muslim because that's just what you do, maybe do the occasional holiday, but you're otherwise atheist.
Like the old joke in Ireland: 'I'm a Catholic, but I'm an Atheist Catholic'.
One of my professors was like that. Secular, but also Orthodox Jewish. He didnāt go to synagogue, but, as he said, the synagogue he wasnāt going to *must* be an Orthodox one.
I mean Iām Muslim because the imam explained it to me in a way that resonated far more than any other spiritual dogma. It boiled down to āyou do you, God is God, your relationship with God is only ever between you and God, religious leaders and the community of the mosques and madrassahs are as much for community gatherings and connecting people than it is spiritual leadership, and if you feel like you and God are okay, who am I to judgeā.
But like, I donāt go to mosque. I barely practice Ramadan, donāt do taqir, smoke and drink, donāt act self conscious or with an air of humility. But God and I, I think weāre at an understanding.
Religion is always far more forgiving than the violent fundamentalists that make the news. Thatās true for Islam just as itās true for Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism and Judaism.
It's apt to call them Islamic if they consider themselves Islamic. You just have to realize "Islamic" doesn't necessarily mean "devout practicing Muslim".
It's similar in Iran. We (Iranians + Central Asians) were not originally Muslim, Islam was imposed on us as a result of Arab colonialism, but unlike the cultures of the Levant, we resisted Arabization. As a result, we maintained our languages and traditions like the Zoroastrian holiday of Nowruz. This is why we are not stereotypically "Muslim" like the Arabs or the Levantines.
And this is why we have a successful Zoroastrian (Parsi) community in India. They were exiled by the Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent and the Indians have been benefiting from their contributions ever since. One member of that community helped develop key parts of Indiaās nuclear program. Another formed the Air India company.
> There has been a struggle for the soul of Islamic civilisation for centuries. The ultimate culture war.
Yeah, and one that more tolerant and vibrant cultures have been losing in many regions. ^(*mutter mutter groan groan gripe*)
before the pandemic one of my coworkers was Tajik. He spoke Russian, Tajik (persian in cyrilic), Turkish (from when he went to university in Cyprus), and English. He was a cool guy but he went back to Tajikistan to get married during the pandemic.
I can only speak to travel from India since when I lived in the US I didn't know much. There are no direct flights outside of a weekly chartered one. The cost of living is extremely low, per capita is half of India (similar to Pakistan). Country sides can be a bit dangerous near the border areas because of more rampant religion and Afghan influence from the Taliban. The cities are decently developed for a poor country, people are warm and inviting.
If you want to do a trip there I would advice you to go to Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan and take a flight from those countries for cheap. There is not that much to do if you compare it with bigger cultural centers like Europe or Japan or India.
It's a beautiful country. If you respect the people and the culture you will be fine. Tajiks I have met can be fiery with a quick temper, but they are also good, dependable people. When going to a country like Tajikistan as a tourist, expect to bend to the culture, not the other way around.
I visited Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan last year and was really surprised to see how relatively secular it felt. You can obviously tell you are visiting Muslim majority countries but it was not as dominating as expected especially in Almaty.
Speaking with locals it sounds like one of the few positive legacies of the Soviet empire was their godless atheism that lead to āIslam lightā so to speak. Fascinating part of the world to visit.
Indeed. Considering that they're over 90% Muslim it really goes to show that the regional culture matters a hell of a lot more than the religion per se.
At least the police is arresting the bad guys (extremists). Sometimes itās a necessary evil when the threat is right next door. Donāt forget Uzbekistan borders Taliban controlled Afghanistan.
Okay, DNA tests to prevent cousin marriages may not be such a bad idea. I have an irrational fear of finding out being related to my wife in some shape or form. My wife's family is related to just about everyone in our town. Good thing is, most of my family is dead. That's not supposed to be so morbid, but they're not from town thankfully.
But, it was an irrational fear of mine.
Well, I'd say most generally don't have to worry if they're not marrying someone from their own town, and possibly not even that. A consanguineous marriage, or a marriage that could lead to children with increased chance of health defects, is defined as second cousins or closer. Aka, your grandparents were siblings.
It can be noted that while the chances of health defects increase in that scenario, the number go from 3 percent to 6 percent. So its twice as high, but not significant chance on it's own.Ā
One can also note that if a non-consanguineous couple have a child with health defects, the chance for their next child having one is 6 percent. Meaning a non-consanguineous couple with a child with birth defect is just as likely to produce offspring with birth defects as a first cousin couple.Ā
I was hanging out with a really hot girl I liked from school, and think she liked me. Her mom came home, and was being friendly and asked me some questions. When she asked my last name, she said, "wait a minute, what is your dad's name?" When I told her she said, "Oh my god, we are cousins!!!"
Worst day ever.
Fuck, that sounds like my experience... I dated a girl for a few weeks, then when I met her mother, she knew who I was... turns out she had been my babysitter when I was really young. She was my mom's cousin. So the girl I was dating was my second cousin... we had no idea.
If you are referring to Adams and Jefferson they married their 3rd cousins. If you were referring to FDR he married his 5th cousin.
Just to clarify for anyone reading. No president married a first or second cousin.
My SIL and I both did the 23 and me tests. Our results were insanely similar. Of course the % werenāt exact but the only difference is that I had a tiny bit of Ashkenazi Jewish.Ā Very happy to announce I am not related to my partner of at that time 8 years.Ā
Just like my boss. A former disease specialist who turned weapons expert two years ago but nowadays focuses more on his job as a soccer trainer in regards of the UEFA 24
Hey every 4 years.. itās your time to put that expertise to use. Canāt just been sitting on that gold mine of knowledge, gotta be able to show people on Reddit how much smarter you are than them, especially former pole vault athletes../S
Thatās what makes you an expert. I racked my brain but didnāt think of this to improve. But my expertise is in the 5- star armchair general in military game planing.
>Additionally, Tajikistan has informally discouraged men from wearing bushy beards. Reports indicate that thousands of men have been forcibly stopped by police over the past decade and had their beards shaved off against their will.
>The Tajik government started cracking down on the hijab in 2007 when the Ministry of Education prohibited both Islamic attire and Western-style miniskirts for students.
>This ban was later expanded to include all public institutions, with some organisations requiring their employees and visitors to remove their headscarves. Local authorities formed special teams to enforce this informal ban, and police even conducted raids in markets to apprehend people breaking the rule.
>The bill has caused debate among Tajikistan's **mostly Muslim population** in the tightly governed ex-Soviet republic.
"Smart" government.
How the fuck is this upvoted lol? They are absolutely abhorrent nation. Or is this I'm just one of those "I hate Muslims so this is all that matters to me, everyone else can fuck off and die" moments?
We need DNA tests to stop cousin marriage in Kentucky , Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. Problem then the number of marriages would crash to near zero.
[Commercial DNA testing has proved that incest is much more common than had previously been estimated](https://brucegerencser.net/2024/05/questions-bruce-is-incest-always-wrong/)
Note: I'm linking to a blog post that summarizes and links to paywalled studies.
https://encyclopedia.pub/media/common/202210/mceclip0-6347d8ffe7906.png
https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/28985
Oddly enough, first-cousin marriage is legal in places like New York and California, banned in places like Louisiana,Ā and a straight up criminal offense in Texas and Oklahoma.Ā
Go figure.
The shitty first apartment I lived in had a rule on the lease: "No stacking tires on the balcony." I'm guessing they had actual issues with that. And I've never seen that rule at any other place because most people have enough common sense to not stack old tires on their balcony.
So yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say states with the laws had a problem with 1st cousin marriage, and in states without the laws didn't.
I wonder if that's even cost effective. I'm not about to go to bat for cousin-fucking, but it seems like the cost:benefit ratio might end up being on par with mandatory drug testing for food stamps. In other words, it could cost far more to administer the tests than you will ever "save" in catching people based on the incidence of the forbidden act and the relative cost of the harm it causes.Ā
https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/chalabi-datalab-cousins-1.png - doesn't break it down by state (not sure if such data even exists) but certainly it's far less anywhere in the US than it is in some parts of the world, where it's >50% of marriages.
From what I find. Not significant in modern times to deserve the stereotypes. When I was growing up in the South - rednecks would make fun of Islamic families because of stereotype of distinct cousin marriages. Even if true or not in their family. Now, people make fun of rednecks again.
Alabama is just an easy punching bag for weak comedians.
Tajikistan is also a dictatorship with a poor human rights record.
Edit: It's wild to me how many people there are responding to this comment trying to argue with me that there are situations where dictatorships aren't bad. Give your heads a shake.
Statistically speaking, a dictatorship or even a dictator can't get everything wrong as 100% and 0% don't really exist given enough samples. For example, guess who killed Hitler?
Just because a country a dictatorship does not mean that they can't do good things. The world isn't black and white. Tajikistan's problems come from Soviet-era nepotism and corruption, but social programs like this are objectively a good thing.
Coming from an Iranian who spent considerable time in Tajikistan, most people don't care about the dictatorship; the country is progressing economically after being left in shambles thanks to the Taliban Islamists in the civil war, and there is a great sense of hope and overall people seemed very happy.
Foreigners like you are far more pre-occupied with the Rahmon dictatorship and alleged "human rights violations" than 80% of the tajik population is.
A flaming arrow to the chest is in fact worse than an arrow to the chest. But you're kinda right in that their both bad, but kinda wrong in that dying screaming while on fire is worse than bleeding out
well the idea is that a hijab makes it so men aren't tempted by the woman wearing one so they don't commit any sexual sin. Basically victim blaming.
That's how i understand it atleast
thats always the excuse for these religious covers... yet men still rape and sexually assault these women... its almost like the men are the problem or something.
I remember when I want to school in Belgium. and seeing all the girls who dressed just the same a non religious people quickly wear a scarf/hijab when school ended because their older brother/father would be waiting for them and they made it clear that if they saw them walking without said garments they would be in serious trouble.
in NYC I used to commute using the E train and on my commute back home when we got a few stops before Jamaica I'd always see a bunch of young women put their hijabs on, I found it amusing at the time but now that I know what it means I find it sad. I live in what I would consider a pretty progressive city and there are still people here who are forced to veil themselves out of fear, I'd like to think it was a choice.
never thought about that but yes it begins young. Does explain why their prophet married a six year old girl and started having sex with her at age 9.
And that's written in their own religious texts
That's called religious indoctrination.
You can find it elsewhere just not with hijab.
Mennonite and Amish have had historically strict attire for their women, the men as well though less so in Mennonite communities.
Early Baptist homemaker women, some still alive today apparently, often wear full head dressings any time they walk outside where other men might gaze at their locks of hair etc.
Catholic nuns being forced to wear head dressing and the priests had a historically more open nature on their dress code going into the 1980s. It's not uncommon to find a pastor or nun in normal dress today, but as a kid, I often saw groups of clothed men and women in religious dress.
I don't condone the hijab, I heard all I needed to from my friends over the years about what choice actually resembles. It wasn't until their mom divorced dad that they all seemed to really choose their lives. Mom is highly faithful as a Muslim and never once wore her hijab here in Canada. They owned a restaurant so she did then, to help keep her hair out of the way etc but that was a true choice imo, she couldn't often pass it down to her girls until her husband was out of the picture.
Indoctrination and core beliefs run deep
You equate the Amish and... nuns with the regular muslim wear that are forced - in many cases- to wear the hijab? Even priests wear specific clothing, and it's not the same. Nuns and priests don't get killed by their relatives if they choose to not wear their garments.
Yep must protect those women. Oh and also child marriage is A-O-K. And also it's ok to murder a woman if she dares to have an extramarital affair, or if she's simply accused of one, regardless of whether she did. Oh and it's ok to have your daughter killed if you simply wanted a boy instead of a girl. Oh and if your daughter wants a relationship with a non muslim or shows any interest in non muslim ideologies, def needs to be murdered. Oh and if she says she doesn't want to wear a hijab, def got to kill her.
But yeh, we totally need hijabs to protect women.
How about just ban the pressure, coercion and violence then? Plenty of schools in African countries educating women how to point out abuse and how to report it. Education is the proper way to combat human rights abuse. Not with supporting another human rights abuse.
Oh good that's fixed now because they literally have *no choice* thanks to this actual authoritarian government that everyone here is praising. Of course, those women will *still be subject* to violence, coercion, pressure....but now the government will also **subject to fines greater than the annual average income** (fines of 7900 somoni; annual household income ~$700 USD = 7000 somoni)
Not only that, it's also a law that *only* applies during holidays and it *also* literally *bans children's festivities*.
> passed a law on June 19 prohibiting "alien garments" and children's festivities during two major Islamic holidaysāEid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha.
What a paragon of progressivism! (So long as your analysis of the situation doesn't go deeper than "Muslim bad")
What a joke that Redditors are getting excited over this.
> only applies during holidays and it also literally bans children's festivities.
Oh, so actually they didn't ban head scarfs at all, they just banned Islamic women from leaving the house during those two particular days.
You're right that it seems more like a crackdown against other ethnic groups and freedom of religion than an actual attempt at curving misogynistic practices.
> they just banned Islamic women from leaving the house during those two particular days.
One of the holidays is Ramadan, so a whole month of house confinement! Such progress.
"I'm very pro-women, and that's why I force women to do or not do what I think is best for them." Classic.
Let women choose for themselves what to wear. We may not agree with their choice, but...that's kinda the whole point of this whole "freedom" thing.
It's not good in any way as they have a book with outfits women are allowed to wear. All other things including miniskirts are banned.
They also want to ban women from wearing flat shoes. Only high heels are allowed. Which will lead to many women having issues with their legs and back health as constantly wearing high heels is not good for the human anatomy.
With your hate for Islam you don't mind supporting an authoritarian regime. I guess it's all good according to you that women are told what they MUST wear as long as it's not a hijab. Your deep hatred for and lack of understanding of a religion you know very little of has made you think you are right to tell women what to wear while pointing fingers at the "other side". I guess the irony is lost on you.
Although it's true that some women are forced to wear the hijab, the majority chose to wear it. Neither the exteme conservatives nor the uber liberal or anyone else in between should tell women what to wear.
Edit: typo.
Tajikistan is also one of the worst countries in the world when it comes to corruption and human rights, no wonder from an authoritarian dictatorship, yet people will defend this because it's the government being "progressive" to save women from "oppression" and not a religious institution.
Wearing a veil should be a woman's choice, religious extremists and the government needs to sod off.
> Wearing a veil should be a woman's choice, religious extremists and the government needs to sod off.
That's the ideal scenario, but in practice many believe they don't have a choice or let themselves be coerced into wearing them by their men/families. Unless the woman's family is cool with that, she'll either have to cut herself off from the family or simply submit. Guess which one happens more often.
I donāt really know how to feel about this, actually. I donāt know what the Muslim women of Tajikistan actually think about this bill, especially since the article so short, but Iād hope their opinion is at least somewhat taken into account before people decide this was some kind of win.
Hijab politics have always been messy affairs, both in and outside of predominantly Islamic societies. Muslim women have both protested being forced to don a Hijab, and also protested its ban as well. This conflict is often exacerbated by Western politicians and citizens who treat all Muslim women as either brainwashed damsels with no agency, or simple-minded zealots. In either case, there is the idea that these women need āenlighteningā in the most condescending manner possible. Furthermore, many people on the outside assume these women *are always* being forced to wear their hijabs. While this is often the unfortunate truth, it isnāt always, as many Muslim women will attest to. To me, itās not right to put words in their mouths and ascribe their stated choice to wear a headscarf to religious mind control.
Personally, Iām against *almost* all legal bans of religious expression, particularly because these laws are often drafted from a place of bigotry, or meant to score cynical political points. Telling women what they can or cannot wear always feels like a loop back around to exasperated misogyny to me.
as an immigrant who check r/ myhhomecountry sub no it is not. Ex pats have often less knowledge of their home country than many redditors. Im always bomabraded by the "we have mansions in africa too stop making us look poor". The people you see commenting on these subs often are children of immigrants who have been to their home countries once as punishment.
There's a joke among Iranians that Tajikistan is the last place to practice any Iranian culture in the region. And seeing this, it's clear the Tajik government cares more about Iranic culture than whatever the fuck is happening in the IR.
Fun fact: there are more statues of Cyrus the Great in Tajikistan than all of Iran.
I'm Iranian, but I don't know of this joke you're talking about.
Regardless, when I was in Tajikistan there was far more knowledge about Iranian culture than in Iran. The Rahmon govt sends two volumes of the Shahnameh to every new family. It's truly great.
Not really sure what youāre attempting to say.
But one thing is for certain: the Irani government is significantly more dangerous and corrupt than the Tajik government
Clear my doubt : hijaab means only the head covering right? Or do you mean Burqa/niqaab (where even face is covered)?
In India too, many female students protest against hijaab ban, but they are clearly wearing burqa.
In the middle east, hijab refers to the cover of the hair only. But it is very common for non middle easterners to use the term interchangeably for burqa and niqab without realizing the difference.
This is so fascinating, a look into a country that is little spoken about. Itās a very interesting juxtaposition since there was a Tajik Islamic terror cell just apprehended in the United States.
Tajikstan is still maintains alot of soviet culture. The communist party of tajikstan was never overthrown, it just re-branded when communism failed and still rules Tajikstan today. So the country is run by very secular rulers and political islam is very frowned upon.Ā
Problem is of course that Tajikstan neighbors some very islamist countries, and young disaffected Tajiks can be swayed by islamist teachings since its the defacto opposition ideology in the country.
It's pretty clear that western clothing has become a part of everyday life in Tajikistan. While your train of thought is correct, I don't think jeans are "alien" anymore.
The article mentions that there is a push to make women wear traditional clothes:
> In recent years, the Tajik government has promoted traditional Tajik clothing through a campaign. In 2017, millions of people received text messages urging women to wear Tajik national clothes. The messages emphasised the importance of respecting and making it a tradition to wear these outfits. This effort peaked in 2018 with the release of a 376-page manual titled "The Guidebook Of Recommended Outfits In Tajikistan," which detailed appropriate attire for various occasions.
If that push is exclusive to women that could have problematic roots of its own.
Yes, they do, but ironically there is no rhyme or reason to their "alien clothing" rule.
They have banned miniskirts too for being European, yet have published a book with approved outfits, see below link. In it some western style clothing are part of the approved attire. Like mentioned already, no rhyme or reason for what is considered alien.
The only reason so many people on this post are supportive of the new laws in Tajikistan is because they are on the "hijab bad" bandwagon, not realising that if they went to Tajikistan they too would be DICTATED to wear certain clothing and would get fined if they are not wearing "approved outfits".
https://www.rferl.org/a/tajikistan-what-to-wear-a-style-guideline-for-women/29197855.html
By the way, flat shoes are also banned despite numerous research showing they are not good for the legs or back.
Because we all know that men cannot control their urgens if they see the beautiful hair of a woman, whereas mens' hair doesn't inspire the same feelings in women.
But women of age covering their hair is a very, very old tradition and is only becoming a bit unique with Islam because the rest of the world has become a lot more secular.
Besides the whole infringement on freedom of expression issue, I genuinely donāt understand āalien garmentā argument. If we were to assume burqa is an āArab garmentā then suits and ties must be a āWestern garmentā.
If the goal is make day to day Tajik people dress more like their nomadic Turkic ancestors on horseback, sure Iād get it. But otherwise just a general ban of a specific garment because itās alien to the native culture isā¦ misdirected?
Having a beard is also strongly discouraged by the government of Tajikstan, in order to battle radicalism they say.
Turkey, back under Ataturk, banned beards as well.
Not it did not. It did for military and certain civil services and it is still in place as a some sort of dress code. In fact it comes from Ottoman period tradition. Servants of the state are not allowed to have beards. Growing a beard was among the proofs that Prince Mustafa was considered in rebellion to the Sultan. Because only the monarch was allowed to have one.
Ataturk government š¤ New York Yankees
No, TĆ¼rkiye banned headscarves and beards only for students and those working in government and military institutions. If you were a civilian who did not work in these jobs, these prohibitions did not cover you.
I dont know if it's written in Turkey's constitution, but the Turkish military is also considered the secular "watchdogs" of the country. I dont know if they are obligated to act, but if they feel/determine that the government is becoming non-secular they throw a coup to protect the secular democratic institution
Today Turkish army is just Erdogan puppet. They purged bad apples of Feto and purged secular ones with them.
Yeah, that orchestrated ācoupā in 2016 conveniently allowed Erdogan to purge and imprison anyone not loyal to him.
My father was basically a us diplomat with Turkey. A ton of his friends were arrested on fake charges. During the ācoupā the wives of many of his friends there were messaging him for help, but then would say āthey are at the doorā so he would block their number cause now the government had the phone and he could never trust the messages sent from them. He said it was the hardest thing heās ever done. He has helped a bunch of the people who got out get asylum but heās heartbroken he couldnāt help more people out.
> I dont know if it's written in Turkey's constitution No, but over time they came to consider that their responsibility. Most recently they forced Prime Minister Erbakan to step down in 97 not through force, but simply through the credible threat of military action, because he was thought to be interfering with the separation of church and state. Needless to say, Erdogan has blown way past everything all the other guys did, and completely defanged the military in the process.
I have a friend from Tajikistan and she has told me that if you try to go out in public with a large beard, law enforcement can literally pin you to the ground and shave your face on the spot. They take those kinds of laws very seriously, and for good reason. Edit: just to clarify, I don't think there are any laws against having big beards. But especially with younger men it's very frowned upon. And obviously getting force shaved on the street doesn't happen to everyone, but it's a thing that can happen, especially if you've been warned before.
My mom would love Tajikistan
For good reason?
this is an exaggeration, plenty of older men especially go outside with long beards unbothered.
To be honest I think it's more younger men who they're worried about being radicalized that it happens to. I don't think there is actually any law about it, but more a social faux pas.
yes itās uncommon for young men to have beards. iāve personally been stopped by the police for having one, but i paid a fine and had no further issues
So they're like the New York Yankees of Countries?
My Indian friend is married to a Tajik woman. I went to their wedding, they are not religious people at all. They don't care about Islam and openly drink as well. Among the best people I have come across, warm and friendly. The only thing is they can only speak Russian, Tajik and Farsi so it's hard to have much of a conversation with them. Edit: It's been pointed to me that Tajik and Farsi are the same language or are similar languages.
Speaking 3 languages is pretty good though lol
Equally impressive as speaking English, Spanish, and Mandarin but about 1/4 as useful
Depends what region you live in. I guess if you live next to Russia and 3-4 countries that speak farsi, it's pretty useful.
Oh yeah, i was meaning from a globalist/maximum speakers view. If you dont plan on going very far distance-wise then other languages become much more useful.
Sure yes globaly
Can't beat knowing English if you surf the web. Most of the worlds knowledge and information is in that language.
English is the universal default language of international business. You'll find English in pretty much every country because of it, even if it's just in print/signs
I live in the US but work with Refugees and being able to speak Farsi would be nearly as useful as Spanish for me
I teach refugees. Farsi/dari and Pashto are languages that would help me immensely
English, Spanish and mandarin cover a way bigger spectrum of language families then Russian, Tajik and Farsi. eg.: Speaking English and German is way easier then speaking English and Mandarin. As both German and English are Germanic languages
German is hard due to grammar rules. I would use Swedish as an example since Swedish is closer grammatically to English while having a lot of shared vocabulary
shit is that true? I had no idea!
Eh, donāt believe it. Swedish has genders, complicated plurals, cool but complicated suffix definitive form. Easy to speak Swedish poorly, but it is plenty difficult to actually learn it.
Probably 1/10 as useful if you're comparing to those three.
If the dude is Indian he probably knows 3 more - English, Hindi, and whatever his local mother tongue was.
Some people have a gift for languages. I knew someone who was Greek and grew up in Alexandria, Egypt. He learned Greek and Arabic as a child. He married a French woman living in Australia, from whom he picked up French and English. Later, they moved to South Africa where she had been born. He picked up Afrikaans there. So, five languages total. And, AFAIK, he never took lessons to learn any of them. Amazing. :)
Not to be a jackass but Tajik and Farsi are the same language! They are both considered dialects of Persian. Source:: I study Persian
some consider them. The difference between a language and a dialect is a murky one though.
Iāve heard it said that the difference between a language and a dialect is an army and a navy (though, maybe no navy in Tajikistanās case).
Yes in short. You are a dialect until you force others to accept you as your own language. Like, there's less difference in a lot of cases between Norweigan, Danish and Swedish than there is between say a London accent and a Scots "dialect". But they ahve their own identities that everyone agrees on so they are languages, whereas scotland doesn't have that power. Or the differences between Serbian, Croatian etc. The serbs and the Croats will say they are different languages when they are being nationalistic. But plenty of serbs and croats will admit they are *very* similar.
It's the same language dude lol. Any Iranian can easily communicate with a tajik and vice versa source: literally just got back from Tajikistan (I'm iranian)
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Both Iranian languages but not mutually intelligible. Like how German and Swedish are both Germanic.
Besides some loan words they are both pretty different from each other
Many Afghanis speak Dari, which is basically their name for the local Farsi dialect.
Another indo-Iranian language. Think French and Spanish as two different romance languages
Aren't Farsi and Tajik mutually intelligible?
Yes, Persians and Tajiks can speak to each other. I think Tajik is more like old persian (what was explained to me).
Tajik is more like Farsi with a Russian accent. Source: I'm Iranian and lived and studied in Tajikstan for a summer about a decade ago.Ā
Tajik in tajikistan felt more like Afghan dialect than russian accent. I did not get any notions of a russian accent.
The language is called Persian, itās incorrect to call it Farsi when speaking English Source: Iām Iranian
> only speak Russian, Tajik and Farsi Our definitions of "only" differ greatly.
From what I can find Tajik is a local variant of Persian. Wikipedia seems to indicate that Persian and Farsi is the same and that local variants like Tajik are similar enough to enable easy communication. So from my understanding that is similar to an American speaking English and American English or Texan and English.
Tajik is very similar, but my experience as an Iranian has been that Tajiks have an easier time understanding me than I have understanding them.
Farsi and Dari are very similar as well
I donāt know how similar Tajik is to the Farsi spoken in Iran, but itās definitely mutually intelligible with other Farsi dialects. I know a speaker of Afghan Farsi and a speaker of Tajik and they could understand each other very well when the other was talking on the phone in their native language.
I'd have said more like English and Scots. The same phrase: Tajik: meboshed, Todjik man kame medonom Farsi: beboshed, Farsi je kame belodom So you can see how they would be intelligible but probably more different than American and English English. Also Tajiki is written in Cyrillic and Farsi is written in a Persian script
I also speak 4-5 languages, so something like this is pretty common in South Asia and Central Asia. The point was that I didn't know any of their languages, should've phrased it better.
How did you become and stay friends without a common language?Ā
My friend's wife speaks some English since she got her masters in India, her family and friends only know a few English phrases. I have been meeting them on and off for a few years. So I got familiar with their culture. She has also invited me to her country a few times. I also picked up some Russian basics from travelling to Kazakhstan.
That's the thing people forget about the Islamic world, it's incredibly diverse. There's a world of difference between a middle class person in Casablanca and someone from a tribal region of Pakistan. There has been a struggle for the soul of Islamic civilisation for centuries. The ultimate culture war.
Tajiks do follow Islam but with my interactions with them they seem to be culturally more Russian or Persian. Most of them behave like atheists. I don't even know if it's apt to call them Islamic
It's a bit like Catholicism. You claim to be Muslim because that's just what you do, maybe do the occasional holiday, but you're otherwise atheist. Like the old joke in Ireland: 'I'm a Catholic, but I'm an Atheist Catholic'.
One of my professors was like that. Secular, but also Orthodox Jewish. He didnāt go to synagogue, but, as he said, the synagogue he wasnāt going to *must* be an Orthodox one.
I mean Iām Muslim because the imam explained it to me in a way that resonated far more than any other spiritual dogma. It boiled down to āyou do you, God is God, your relationship with God is only ever between you and God, religious leaders and the community of the mosques and madrassahs are as much for community gatherings and connecting people than it is spiritual leadership, and if you feel like you and God are okay, who am I to judgeā. But like, I donāt go to mosque. I barely practice Ramadan, donāt do taqir, smoke and drink, donāt act self conscious or with an air of humility. But God and I, I think weāre at an understanding. Religion is always far more forgiving than the violent fundamentalists that make the news. Thatās true for Islam just as itās true for Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism and Judaism.
Homie i wish more people thought like you. That's the religious reformation i want to see.
for reference the term within the church is Lapsed Catholic
It's apt to call them Islamic if they consider themselves Islamic. You just have to realize "Islamic" doesn't necessarily mean "devout practicing Muslim".
It's similar in Iran. We (Iranians + Central Asians) were not originally Muslim, Islam was imposed on us as a result of Arab colonialism, but unlike the cultures of the Levant, we resisted Arabization. As a result, we maintained our languages and traditions like the Zoroastrian holiday of Nowruz. This is why we are not stereotypically "Muslim" like the Arabs or the Levantines.
And this is why we have a successful Zoroastrian (Parsi) community in India. They were exiled by the Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent and the Indians have been benefiting from their contributions ever since. One member of that community helped develop key parts of Indiaās nuclear program. Another formed the Air India company.
Freddie Mercury
> There has been a struggle for the soul of Islamic civilisation for centuries. The ultimate culture war. Yeah, and one that more tolerant and vibrant cultures have been losing in many regions. ^(*mutter mutter groan groan gripe*)
before the pandemic one of my coworkers was Tajik. He spoke Russian, Tajik (persian in cyrilic), Turkish (from when he went to university in Cyprus), and English. He was a cool guy but he went back to Tajikistan to get married during the pandemic.
How is Tajikistan for tourism?
I can only speak to travel from India since when I lived in the US I didn't know much. There are no direct flights outside of a weekly chartered one. The cost of living is extremely low, per capita is half of India (similar to Pakistan). Country sides can be a bit dangerous near the border areas because of more rampant religion and Afghan influence from the Taliban. The cities are decently developed for a poor country, people are warm and inviting. If you want to do a trip there I would advice you to go to Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan and take a flight from those countries for cheap. There is not that much to do if you compare it with bigger cultural centers like Europe or Japan or India.
It's a beautiful country. If you respect the people and the culture you will be fine. Tajiks I have met can be fiery with a quick temper, but they are also good, dependable people. When going to a country like Tajikistan as a tourist, expect to bend to the culture, not the other way around.
I visited Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan last year and was really surprised to see how relatively secular it felt. You can obviously tell you are visiting Muslim majority countries but it was not as dominating as expected especially in Almaty. Speaking with locals it sounds like one of the few positive legacies of the Soviet empire was their godless atheism that lead to āIslam lightā so to speak. Fascinating part of the world to visit.
Indeed. Considering that they're over 90% Muslim it really goes to show that the regional culture matters a hell of a lot more than the religion per se.
I mean, Uzbekistan is a straight up police state and Almaty is packed with ethnic Russians.
At least the police is arresting the bad guys (extremists). Sometimes itās a necessary evil when the threat is right next door. Donāt forget Uzbekistan borders Taliban controlled Afghanistan.
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Okay, DNA tests to prevent cousin marriages may not be such a bad idea. I have an irrational fear of finding out being related to my wife in some shape or form. My wife's family is related to just about everyone in our town. Good thing is, most of my family is dead. That's not supposed to be so morbid, but they're not from town thankfully. But, it was an irrational fear of mine.
Well, I'd say most generally don't have to worry if they're not marrying someone from their own town, and possibly not even that. A consanguineous marriage, or a marriage that could lead to children with increased chance of health defects, is defined as second cousins or closer. Aka, your grandparents were siblings.
It can be noted that while the chances of health defects increase in that scenario, the number go from 3 percent to 6 percent. So its twice as high, but not significant chance on it's own.Ā One can also note that if a non-consanguineous couple have a child with health defects, the chance for their next child having one is 6 percent. Meaning a non-consanguineous couple with a child with birth defect is just as likely to produce offspring with birth defects as a first cousin couple.Ā
I was hanging out with a really hot girl I liked from school, and think she liked me. Her mom came home, and was being friendly and asked me some questions. When she asked my last name, she said, "wait a minute, what is your dad's name?" When I told her she said, "Oh my god, we are cousins!!!" Worst day ever.
Fuck, that sounds like my experience... I dated a girl for a few weeks, then when I met her mother, she knew who I was... turns out she had been my babysitter when I was really young. She was my mom's cousin. So the girl I was dating was my second cousin... we had no idea.
at least 2 us presidents have married their cousins
If you are referring to Adams and Jefferson they married their 3rd cousins. If you were referring to FDR he married his 5th cousin. Just to clarify for anyone reading. No president married a first or second cousin.
My SIL and I both did the 23 and me tests. Our results were insanely similar. Of course the % werenāt exact but the only difference is that I had a tiny bit of Ashkenazi Jewish.Ā Very happy to announce I am not related to my partner of at that time 8 years.Ā
Not really irrational if you're all related though is it
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Lmao they heard ONE fact about Tajikistan and all of a sudden have a full opinion of the country they couldnāt find on a map
Itās like when the Olympics comes around and I become a pole vault expert
Just like my boss. A former disease specialist who turned weapons expert two years ago but nowadays focuses more on his job as a soccer trainer in regards of the UEFA 24
Hey every 4 years.. itās your time to put that expertise to use. Canāt just been sitting on that gold mine of knowledge, gotta be able to show people on Reddit how much smarter you are than them, especially former pole vault athletes../S
I also tell the runners to run faster. The fools!
Thatās what makes you an expert. I racked my brain but didnāt think of this to improve. But my expertise is in the 5- star armchair general in military game planing.
^ My vote for comment of the day
>Additionally, Tajikistan has informally discouraged men from wearing bushy beards. Reports indicate that thousands of men have been forcibly stopped by police over the past decade and had their beards shaved off against their will. >The Tajik government started cracking down on the hijab in 2007 when the Ministry of Education prohibited both Islamic attire and Western-style miniskirts for students. >This ban was later expanded to include all public institutions, with some organisations requiring their employees and visitors to remove their headscarves. Local authorities formed special teams to enforce this informal ban, and police even conducted raids in markets to apprehend people breaking the rule. >The bill has caused debate among Tajikistan's **mostly Muslim population** in the tightly governed ex-Soviet republic. "Smart" government.
Wikipedia says that "mostly" is actually roughly 96%, so more of an "overwhelmingly".
"They overwhelmingly come at night.... overwhelmingly."
Belgium banned the burka over 15 years ago. But not sure what the motives were.
How the fuck is this upvoted lol? They are absolutely abhorrent nation. Or is this I'm just one of those "I hate Muslims so this is all that matters to me, everyone else can fuck off and die" moments?
Typical reddit when reacting to anything related to religion
Man you really missed the mark on this one.
I don't blame them given the fact that they border Afghanistan.
We need DNA tests to stop cousin marriage in Kentucky , Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. Problem then the number of marriages would crash to near zero.
[Commercial DNA testing has proved that incest is much more common than had previously been estimated](https://brucegerencser.net/2024/05/questions-bruce-is-incest-always-wrong/) Note: I'm linking to a blog post that summarizes and links to paywalled studies.
https://encyclopedia.pub/media/common/202210/mceclip0-6347d8ffe7906.png https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/28985 Oddly enough, first-cousin marriage is legal in places like New York and California, banned in places like Louisiana,Ā and a straight up criminal offense in Texas and Oklahoma.Ā Go figure.
California? George Michael must be thrilled!
Her?
I wonder if it's because those states had actual issues with cousin marriage? I have no idea I'm just being a dick
The shitty first apartment I lived in had a rule on the lease: "No stacking tires on the balcony." I'm guessing they had actual issues with that. And I've never seen that rule at any other place because most people have enough common sense to not stack old tires on their balcony. So yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say states with the laws had a problem with 1st cousin marriage, and in states without the laws didn't.
Every rural area in the world had issues with cousin marriage.
Up until 2008, pre-marriage blood tests were a think in most of the south.
I wonder if that's even cost effective. I'm not about to go to bat for cousin-fucking, but it seems like the cost:benefit ratio might end up being on par with mandatory drug testing for food stamps. In other words, it could cost far more to administer the tests than you will ever "save" in catching people based on the incidence of the forbidden act and the relative cost of the harm it causes.Ā
Only for STDs, and they basically weren't enforced at all.
What is the actual rate of cousin marriages in these places ?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/chalabi-datalab-cousins-1.png - doesn't break it down by state (not sure if such data even exists) but certainly it's far less anywhere in the US than it is in some parts of the world, where it's >50% of marriages.
From what I find. Not significant in modern times to deserve the stereotypes. When I was growing up in the South - rednecks would make fun of Islamic families because of stereotype of distinct cousin marriages. Even if true or not in their family. Now, people make fun of rednecks again. Alabama is just an easy punching bag for weak comedians.
Tajikistan is also a dictatorship with a poor human rights record. Edit: It's wild to me how many people there are responding to this comment trying to argue with me that there are situations where dictatorships aren't bad. Give your heads a shake.
Statistically speaking, a dictatorship or even a dictator can't get everything wrong as 100% and 0% don't really exist given enough samples. For example, guess who killed Hitler?
>For example, guess who killed Hitler? No idea, but he must have been a hero, right? ...Right?
If I recall correctly it was Super Jesus 2000.
The Kims have to be close 100% wrong
Approaching asymptotically towards 100% exists in statistics.
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Just because a country a dictatorship does not mean that they can't do good things. The world isn't black and white. Tajikistan's problems come from Soviet-era nepotism and corruption, but social programs like this are objectively a good thing. Coming from an Iranian who spent considerable time in Tajikistan, most people don't care about the dictatorship; the country is progressing economically after being left in shambles thanks to the Taliban Islamists in the civil war, and there is a great sense of hope and overall people seemed very happy. Foreigners like you are far more pre-occupied with the Rahmon dictatorship and alleged "human rights violations" than 80% of the tajik population is.
Reddit isn't great at nuance and understanding historical context.
A dictatorship is much better than an Islamist dictatorship.
Any kind of dictatorship is bad, actually.
A flaming arrow to the chest is in fact worse than an arrow to the chest. But you're kinda right in that their both bad, but kinda wrong in that dying screaming while on fire is worse than bleeding out
False. Example: Singapore.
A punch in the face is bad. If the punch comes from me or from Mike Tyson are not equally bad. The world is not white and black.
That's in an ideal world. Which is not possible, unfortunately.
The image shown is not the Hijab btw.
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I don't remember where I read it, but one said that the Hijab protects women. From what? Their families (committing hate crimes).
well the idea is that a hijab makes it so men aren't tempted by the woman wearing one so they don't commit any sexual sin. Basically victim blaming. That's how i understand it atleast
thats always the excuse for these religious covers... yet men still rape and sexually assault these women... its almost like the men are the problem or something.
Blasphemy! She was asking for it looking beautiful with her hair dancing in the wind! I hate that I think it's necessary, but /s of course.
and I've noticed a lot of little girls(children) wearing it....which says something.
I remember when I want to school in Belgium. and seeing all the girls who dressed just the same a non religious people quickly wear a scarf/hijab when school ended because their older brother/father would be waiting for them and they made it clear that if they saw them walking without said garments they would be in serious trouble.
in NYC I used to commute using the E train and on my commute back home when we got a few stops before Jamaica I'd always see a bunch of young women put their hijabs on, I found it amusing at the time but now that I know what it means I find it sad. I live in what I would consider a pretty progressive city and there are still people here who are forced to veil themselves out of fear, I'd like to think it was a choice.
god I hate religion
never thought about that but yes it begins young. Does explain why their prophet married a six year old girl and started having sex with her at age 9. And that's written in their own religious texts
Beware: incoming paedo defenders
That's called religious indoctrination. You can find it elsewhere just not with hijab. Mennonite and Amish have had historically strict attire for their women, the men as well though less so in Mennonite communities. Early Baptist homemaker women, some still alive today apparently, often wear full head dressings any time they walk outside where other men might gaze at their locks of hair etc. Catholic nuns being forced to wear head dressing and the priests had a historically more open nature on their dress code going into the 1980s. It's not uncommon to find a pastor or nun in normal dress today, but as a kid, I often saw groups of clothed men and women in religious dress. I don't condone the hijab, I heard all I needed to from my friends over the years about what choice actually resembles. It wasn't until their mom divorced dad that they all seemed to really choose their lives. Mom is highly faithful as a Muslim and never once wore her hijab here in Canada. They owned a restaurant so she did then, to help keep her hair out of the way etc but that was a true choice imo, she couldn't often pass it down to her girls until her husband was out of the picture. Indoctrination and core beliefs run deep
You equate the Amish and... nuns with the regular muslim wear that are forced - in many cases- to wear the hijab? Even priests wear specific clothing, and it's not the same. Nuns and priests don't get killed by their relatives if they choose to not wear their garments.
Yep must protect those women. Oh and also child marriage is A-O-K. And also it's ok to murder a woman if she dares to have an extramarital affair, or if she's simply accused of one, regardless of whether she did. Oh and it's ok to have your daughter killed if you simply wanted a boy instead of a girl. Oh and if your daughter wants a relationship with a non muslim or shows any interest in non muslim ideologies, def needs to be murdered. Oh and if she says she doesn't want to wear a hijab, def got to kill her. But yeh, we totally need hijabs to protect women.
Come on it is just brainwashing
How about just ban the pressure, coercion and violence then? Plenty of schools in African countries educating women how to point out abuse and how to report it. Education is the proper way to combat human rights abuse. Not with supporting another human rights abuse.
Oh good that's fixed now because they literally have *no choice* thanks to this actual authoritarian government that everyone here is praising. Of course, those women will *still be subject* to violence, coercion, pressure....but now the government will also **subject to fines greater than the annual average income** (fines of 7900 somoni; annual household income ~$700 USD = 7000 somoni) Not only that, it's also a law that *only* applies during holidays and it *also* literally *bans children's festivities*. > passed a law on June 19 prohibiting "alien garments" and children's festivities during two major Islamic holidaysāEid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. What a paragon of progressivism! (So long as your analysis of the situation doesn't go deeper than "Muslim bad") What a joke that Redditors are getting excited over this.
> only applies during holidays and it also literally bans children's festivities. Oh, so actually they didn't ban head scarfs at all, they just banned Islamic women from leaving the house during those two particular days. You're right that it seems more like a crackdown against other ethnic groups and freedom of religion than an actual attempt at curving misogynistic practices.
> they just banned Islamic women from leaving the house during those two particular days. One of the holidays is Ramadan, so a whole month of house confinement! Such progress.
And now other men have decided they shouldn't be allowed to wear it, so women still don't have the choice.
"I'm very pro-women, and that's why I force women to do or not do what I think is best for them." Classic. Let women choose for themselves what to wear. We may not agree with their choice, but...that's kinda the whole point of this whole "freedom" thing.
It's not good in any way as they have a book with outfits women are allowed to wear. All other things including miniskirts are banned. They also want to ban women from wearing flat shoes. Only high heels are allowed. Which will lead to many women having issues with their legs and back health as constantly wearing high heels is not good for the human anatomy. With your hate for Islam you don't mind supporting an authoritarian regime. I guess it's all good according to you that women are told what they MUST wear as long as it's not a hijab. Your deep hatred for and lack of understanding of a religion you know very little of has made you think you are right to tell women what to wear while pointing fingers at the "other side". I guess the irony is lost on you. Although it's true that some women are forced to wear the hijab, the majority chose to wear it. Neither the exteme conservatives nor the uber liberal or anyone else in between should tell women what to wear. Edit: typo.
So what to good to pressure, coerce and violently disallow them from choosing to what to wear!
Women being told they have to wear something by a religion is bad. Women being told they can't wear something by a government is also bad.
i had to scroll a lot to find a sane comment and thats concerning.
Tajikistan is also one of the worst countries in the world when it comes to corruption and human rights, no wonder from an authoritarian dictatorship, yet people will defend this because it's the government being "progressive" to save women from "oppression" and not a religious institution. Wearing a veil should be a woman's choice, religious extremists and the government needs to sod off.
> Wearing a veil should be a woman's choice, religious extremists and the government needs to sod off. That's the ideal scenario, but in practice many believe they don't have a choice or let themselves be coerced into wearing them by their men/families. Unless the woman's family is cool with that, she'll either have to cut herself off from the family or simply submit. Guess which one happens more often.
This is the only sane take
I donāt really know how to feel about this, actually. I donāt know what the Muslim women of Tajikistan actually think about this bill, especially since the article so short, but Iād hope their opinion is at least somewhat taken into account before people decide this was some kind of win. Hijab politics have always been messy affairs, both in and outside of predominantly Islamic societies. Muslim women have both protested being forced to don a Hijab, and also protested its ban as well. This conflict is often exacerbated by Western politicians and citizens who treat all Muslim women as either brainwashed damsels with no agency, or simple-minded zealots. In either case, there is the idea that these women need āenlighteningā in the most condescending manner possible. Furthermore, many people on the outside assume these women *are always* being forced to wear their hijabs. While this is often the unfortunate truth, it isnāt always, as many Muslim women will attest to. To me, itās not right to put words in their mouths and ascribe their stated choice to wear a headscarf to religious mind control. Personally, Iām against *almost* all legal bans of religious expression, particularly because these laws are often drafted from a place of bigotry, or meant to score cynical political points. Telling women what they can or cannot wear always feels like a loop back around to exasperated misogyny to me.
The first comment on this post from r/tajikistan is informative: https://www.reddit.com/r/Tajikistan/comments/1dkorah/what_96_muslims_will_do/
as an immigrant who check r/ myhhomecountry sub no it is not. Ex pats have often less knowledge of their home country than many redditors. Im always bomabraded by the "we have mansions in africa too stop making us look poor". The people you see commenting on these subs often are children of immigrants who have been to their home countries once as punishment.
How about just make it illegal for men to control what a woman decides to do.Ā
There's a joke among Iranians that Tajikistan is the last place to practice any Iranian culture in the region. And seeing this, it's clear the Tajik government cares more about Iranic culture than whatever the fuck is happening in the IR. Fun fact: there are more statues of Cyrus the Great in Tajikistan than all of Iran.
I'm Iranian, but I don't know of this joke you're talking about. Regardless, when I was in Tajikistan there was far more knowledge about Iranian culture than in Iran. The Rahmon govt sends two volumes of the Shahnameh to every new family. It's truly great.
Not really sure what youāre attempting to say. But one thing is for certain: the Irani government is significantly more dangerous and corrupt than the Tajik government
It's interesting to see, that religions and those who fight it, always somehow fight over who gets to control what women are allowed or not.
Yeah its just a tug of war between people who want to control everything, those who don't have enough power just get tossed around constantly.
Clear my doubt : hijaab means only the head covering right? Or do you mean Burqa/niqaab (where even face is covered)? In India too, many female students protest against hijaab ban, but they are clearly wearing burqa.
In the middle east, hijab refers to the cover of the hair only. But it is very common for non middle easterners to use the term interchangeably for burqa and niqab without realizing the difference.
You are right, they banned hijab which techincally means that burqa and nikaab are also banned.
This is so fascinating, a look into a country that is little spoken about. Itās a very interesting juxtaposition since there was a Tajik Islamic terror cell just apprehended in the United States.
Tajikstan is still maintains alot of soviet culture. The communist party of tajikstan was never overthrown, it just re-branded when communism failed and still rules Tajikstan today. So the country is run by very secular rulers and political islam is very frowned upon.Ā Problem is of course that Tajikstan neighbors some very islamist countries, and young disaffected Tajiks can be swayed by islamist teachings since its the defacto opposition ideology in the country.
Its their country, they can do what they want. Especially as they share a border with Afghanistan I can see why this law was made.
What even is the definition of "Alien Garments"?
Alien, other worldly. So outside of Tajik region. I think that would cover more than hijab/burqa
So T-shirt and jeans would count? That's not Tajik clothing.
It's pretty clear that western clothing has become a part of everyday life in Tajikistan. While your train of thought is correct, I don't think jeans are "alien" anymore.
The article mentions that there is a push to make women wear traditional clothes: > In recent years, the Tajik government has promoted traditional Tajik clothing through a campaign. In 2017, millions of people received text messages urging women to wear Tajik national clothes. The messages emphasised the importance of respecting and making it a tradition to wear these outfits. This effort peaked in 2018 with the release of a 376-page manual titled "The Guidebook Of Recommended Outfits In Tajikistan," which detailed appropriate attire for various occasions. If that push is exclusive to women that could have problematic roots of its own.
Yes, they do, but ironically there is no rhyme or reason to their "alien clothing" rule. They have banned miniskirts too for being European, yet have published a book with approved outfits, see below link. In it some western style clothing are part of the approved attire. Like mentioned already, no rhyme or reason for what is considered alien. The only reason so many people on this post are supportive of the new laws in Tajikistan is because they are on the "hijab bad" bandwagon, not realising that if they went to Tajikistan they too would be DICTATED to wear certain clothing and would get fined if they are not wearing "approved outfits". https://www.rferl.org/a/tajikistan-what-to-wear-a-style-guideline-for-women/29197855.html By the way, flat shoes are also banned despite numerous research showing they are not good for the legs or back.
Why exactly women are told to cover their hair but not men?
Because we all know that men cannot control their urgens if they see the beautiful hair of a woman, whereas mens' hair doesn't inspire the same feelings in women. But women of age covering their hair is a very, very old tradition and is only becoming a bit unique with Islam because the rest of the world has become a lot more secular.
Not native
All of that effort and tajik citizens still some how join iskp
Big crop of bots on this one, ain't there?
This a overwhelmingly muslim country as well. Interesting.
Definitely a complex issue. Important to remember that choice in religious practice is key, regardless of the varying views out there
Reddit when: People forced to do something: š” People forced not to do something: š„°
Rare Tajikistan W
Besides the whole infringement on freedom of expression issue, I genuinely donāt understand āalien garmentā argument. If we were to assume burqa is an āArab garmentā then suits and ties must be a āWestern garmentā. If the goal is make day to day Tajik people dress more like their nomadic Turkic ancestors on horseback, sure Iād get it. But otherwise just a general ban of a specific garment because itās alien to the native culture isā¦ misdirected?
Tajiks are Iranian, not Turkic
Western style mini skirts are also bannedĀ
Good! The hijab isnāt in womenās favor at all!