And as always, it's because unscrupulous people are trying to make money with no regards for the lives of the people they sell their services to:
> More than half of the fatalities were people from Egypt, according to two officials in Cairo. Egypt revoked the licenses of 16 travel agencies that helped unauthorized pilgrims travel to Saudi Arabia, authorities said.
> Saudi authorities cracked down on unauthorized pilgrims, expelling tens of thousands of people. But many, mostly Egyptians, managed to reach holy sites in and around Mecca, some on foot. Unlike authorized pilgrims, they had no hotels to escape from the scorching heat.
> In its statement, the government said the 16 travel agencies failed to provide adequate services for pilgrims. It said these agencies illegally facilitated the travel of pilgrims to Saudi Arabia using visas that don’t allow holders to travel to Mecca.
It already is in a way. A lot of those people are forced to do this through religious pressures.
Go, or face your entire family becoming pariahs in the community.
> It's not hard to imagine the Hajj becominging a kind of extreme religious ritual for some where they go hatless and without water for the glory of Allah.
Like the Sacred Spiral from the Foundation TV series where Luminism followers have to walk through the desert to achieve enlightenment, with lots of them dying.
I was thinking the same thing. In the end god and the supernatural are just delusions of the mind, exacerbated by extreme physical and mental stress. Had Cleon been weaker he may have seen something.
I would rather die in a hot pilgrimage to pay respects to a sky faerie than in an air conditioned office room.
I respect people with deeply held crazy beliefs and are willing to die for them.
Yea damn all those good working conditions with climate control, access to clean water, and restrooms.
How dare people have intelligent conversation with their peers while earning a good wage.
Much better to die for a system designed to oppress and control the masses for nothing in return.
*I don’t like the weak and the sick sort of people that commit suicide. But there is one variety I accept. People who commit suicide to establish themselves*
Take a mouse that thinks it’s a cat. I don’t know how, but it does. It’s gone through all the tests and concluded that it’s a cat. Its view of other mice changes. They are its meat, that’s all, but it tells itself it refrains from eating them just to hid the fact that it’s a cat”.
“A rather large mouse, I suppose”.
“It doesn’t matter. It’s not a question of size but of confidence. It’s sure that the concept ‘cat’ has taken on the guise ‘mouse’, nothing more. It believes in the concept and not the flesh.The idea is enough, the body doesn’t matter. The happiness from the contempt is all the greater.
“But then one day” – Furusawa shoved this glases up and drew a persuasive line beside his hose – “but then one day the mouse meets a real cat.
“‘I’m going to eat you’, says the cat.
“‘You can’t’, replies the mouse.
“‘And why not?’
“‘Cats don’t eat cats. It’s impossible as a matter of instinct and as a matter of principle. I’m a cat myself, whatever else I may look like’.
“The cat rolls over laughing. It laughs so hard it’s clawing the air and its white furry belly is heaving. Then it gets up and starts to eat the mouse. The mouse protests.
“‘What are you eating me for?’
“‘Because you’re a mouse’.
“‘I’m a cat. Cats don’t eat cats’.
“‘You’re a mouse’.
“‘I’m a cat’.
“‘Prove it’.
“So the mouse jumps into the laundry tub, all with suds, and drowns itself. The cat wets a forepaw and has a lick. The suds taste horrible. So it leaves the body floating there. We all know why the cat goes off without eating the mouse. Because it’s not something for a cat to eat.
“That’s what I’m talking about. The mouse commits suicide to establish itself. It doesn’t of course make the cat recognize it as a cat, and it didn’t think when it killed itself that it would. But it was brave and perceptive and filled with self-respect. I saw that there are two parts to mouseness. First is that it is a mouse in every physical detail. Second is that it is, for a cat, worth eating. Those two. It has long ago given up in the first matter, but in the second there is still hope. It dies in front of the cat without being eaten, and it establishes itself as something that cats don’t eat. In those two respects it has proved it wasn’t a mouse. That much. To prove besides that it was a cat is simple. If something that had the form of a mouse wasn’t a mouse, then it can be anything else. And so the suicide is a success. The mouse had established itself. What do you think?”.
MISHIMA, Yukio, The decay of the angel, Vintage Classics, London, 2001, 118-119.
You know, you can disagree with someone for a lot of reasons but to belittle people who are literally dying for their religion is one of the most vile statements you can make. You know Pilgrims are found in literally every single religion? Have you met many Muslim people? Have you talked to them about their lives? Muslims, just like every single group of the world are not a monolith. I recommend getting out of your bubble and experiencing the world. You’ve find our similarities greatly outweigh our differences.
Doing a pilgrimage isn't necessarily stupid, depending on the location, weather conditions, your own health et cetera. Going to a severely overcrowded area in 50C heat and blastering sun is dumb though.
Hey, your choice how to feel; that’s on you. I personally don’t feel controlled by my religion, but it could be different for others. I feel freer tbh, but your feelings may be different.
Likewise. My religion empowers me amongst many other beautiful reasons why I am a man of god. Each to their own I guess the way I see it by disrespecting something others believe in they revoke their access to complain when someone disrespects something they believe also it’s a two way street but all praise to god each and everyday in my house and I’m not ashamed to defend god in public :) peace and love to all.
Man, my point is that like it ain’t my religion, and I’m not telling them to go on Hajj. If they want to they can. They’re making decisions on their own and they have the agency to do that. Obviously I think it’s sad. But I ain’t got no dogs in that fight.
In my religion we don’t do stuff like that lmao. When we do pilgrimage it’s not like what Hajj is.
Well it's not for you to decide things for them or shit on other people's beliefs if you don't agree with them. If you're an atheist, that's your belief. You're not the supreme being.
Politics aside, this is genuinely a tragic situation. It shows how dedicated people can get for their religion.
May they rest in peace.
EDIT: I'm not supporting this btw
Tragic. i went to pride in my city yesterday and where i am it was about 100 degrees, had a reading as high as 103. saw so many people look absolutely exhausted and slumped over. was thinking that all of these summertime events (not talking about the Hajj here) are going to have to be moved to offseasons in the coming years. just curious if it will be before or after widespread heat related deaths or hospitalizations.
I’m curious about age and health going in. Not saying that it couldn’t kill young people, but I wonder how many of these are old or sick people trying to do the trip.
Saudi Arabia made 10-15 Billion this year off the Hajj.
And as always, it's because unscrupulous people are trying to make money with no regards for the lives of the people they sell their services to: > More than half of the fatalities were people from Egypt, according to two officials in Cairo. Egypt revoked the licenses of 16 travel agencies that helped unauthorized pilgrims travel to Saudi Arabia, authorities said. > Saudi authorities cracked down on unauthorized pilgrims, expelling tens of thousands of people. But many, mostly Egyptians, managed to reach holy sites in and around Mecca, some on foot. Unlike authorized pilgrims, they had no hotels to escape from the scorching heat. > In its statement, the government said the 16 travel agencies failed to provide adequate services for pilgrims. It said these agencies illegally facilitated the travel of pilgrims to Saudi Arabia using visas that don’t allow holders to travel to Mecca.
If I were Muslim I'd go to Petra instead. The arguments for Petra being the real holy city in the Islam have convinced me.
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It already is in a way. A lot of those people are forced to do this through religious pressures. Go, or face your entire family becoming pariahs in the community.
Oh but don’t worry they can restore their place in the community by beating you to death!
> It's not hard to imagine the Hajj becominging a kind of extreme religious ritual for some where they go hatless and without water for the glory of Allah. Like the Sacred Spiral from the Foundation TV series where Luminism followers have to walk through the desert to achieve enlightenment, with lots of them dying.
I was thinking the same thing. In the end god and the supernatural are just delusions of the mind, exacerbated by extreme physical and mental stress. Had Cleon been weaker he may have seen something.
Delusions exploited by people to oppress and control other people. Organized religion is the worst plague the world has ever known.
How about being a wage slave for a corporate overlord and then dying at your desk during a conference call?
Is the desk in a room with AC and a water cooler?
I would rather die in a hot pilgrimage to pay respects to a sky faerie than in an air conditioned office room. I respect people with deeply held crazy beliefs and are willing to die for them.
Yea damn all those good working conditions with climate control, access to clean water, and restrooms. How dare people have intelligent conversation with their peers while earning a good wage. Much better to die for a system designed to oppress and control the masses for nothing in return.
*I don’t like the weak and the sick sort of people that commit suicide. But there is one variety I accept. People who commit suicide to establish themselves* Take a mouse that thinks it’s a cat. I don’t know how, but it does. It’s gone through all the tests and concluded that it’s a cat. Its view of other mice changes. They are its meat, that’s all, but it tells itself it refrains from eating them just to hid the fact that it’s a cat”. “A rather large mouse, I suppose”. “It doesn’t matter. It’s not a question of size but of confidence. It’s sure that the concept ‘cat’ has taken on the guise ‘mouse’, nothing more. It believes in the concept and not the flesh.The idea is enough, the body doesn’t matter. The happiness from the contempt is all the greater. “But then one day” – Furusawa shoved this glases up and drew a persuasive line beside his hose – “but then one day the mouse meets a real cat. “‘I’m going to eat you’, says the cat. “‘You can’t’, replies the mouse. “‘And why not?’ “‘Cats don’t eat cats. It’s impossible as a matter of instinct and as a matter of principle. I’m a cat myself, whatever else I may look like’. “The cat rolls over laughing. It laughs so hard it’s clawing the air and its white furry belly is heaving. Then it gets up and starts to eat the mouse. The mouse protests. “‘What are you eating me for?’ “‘Because you’re a mouse’. “‘I’m a cat. Cats don’t eat cats’. “‘You’re a mouse’. “‘I’m a cat’. “‘Prove it’. “So the mouse jumps into the laundry tub, all with suds, and drowns itself. The cat wets a forepaw and has a lick. The suds taste horrible. So it leaves the body floating there. We all know why the cat goes off without eating the mouse. Because it’s not something for a cat to eat. “That’s what I’m talking about. The mouse commits suicide to establish itself. It doesn’t of course make the cat recognize it as a cat, and it didn’t think when it killed itself that it would. But it was brave and perceptive and filled with self-respect. I saw that there are two parts to mouseness. First is that it is a mouse in every physical detail. Second is that it is, for a cat, worth eating. Those two. It has long ago given up in the first matter, but in the second there is still hope. It dies in front of the cat without being eaten, and it establishes itself as something that cats don’t eat. In those two respects it has proved it wasn’t a mouse. That much. To prove besides that it was a cat is simple. If something that had the form of a mouse wasn’t a mouse, then it can be anything else. And so the suicide is a success. The mouse had established itself. What do you think?”. MISHIMA, Yukio, The decay of the angel, Vintage Classics, London, 2001, 118-119.
Schizophrenia is a hell of a thing.
You know, you can disagree with someone for a lot of reasons but to belittle people who are literally dying for their religion is one of the most vile statements you can make. You know Pilgrims are found in literally every single religion? Have you met many Muslim people? Have you talked to them about their lives? Muslims, just like every single group of the world are not a monolith. I recommend getting out of your bubble and experiencing the world. You’ve find our similarities greatly outweigh our differences.
Dying for religion is stupid, no matter which religion is it.
No, defending this stupidity is vile
All religion is vile I agree
Nah, I don't need to experience organized religion, of any kind. Just a system created by people to control other people. Pass.
Doing a pilgrimage isn't necessarily stupid, depending on the location, weather conditions, your own health et cetera. Going to a severely overcrowded area in 50C heat and blastering sun is dumb though.
Ok, you can relax now, you've got my snake oil salesman of the year nominee.
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Why should I respect a system designed by people as a means to control other people? Pass.
Hey, your choice how to feel; that’s on you. I personally don’t feel controlled by my religion, but it could be different for others. I feel freer tbh, but your feelings may be different.
Likewise. My religion empowers me amongst many other beautiful reasons why I am a man of god. Each to their own I guess the way I see it by disrespecting something others believe in they revoke their access to complain when someone disrespects something they believe also it’s a two way street but all praise to god each and everyday in my house and I’m not ashamed to defend god in public :) peace and love to all.
Mate, i say with peace and love. Shut up
Posting this comment on an article about 1000 people dying likely from sunstroke while performing a religious ritual is peak irony
The sun needs to be talked out of its strict materialism!
They can't see the forest for the trees.
Man, my point is that like it ain’t my religion, and I’m not telling them to go on Hajj. If they want to they can. They’re making decisions on their own and they have the agency to do that. Obviously I think it’s sad. But I ain’t got no dogs in that fight. In my religion we don’t do stuff like that lmao. When we do pilgrimage it’s not like what Hajj is.
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Time for imams to come up with their own version of the Kool-Aid.
Imagine if 1000 people died trying to see any other monument. Maybe it's time to stop having the Hajj?
You don't have to imagine 2k. 2015 stampede.
Or do the pilgrimage in January, not middle of summer in the desert.
It's on the lunar calendar. It isn't always during the summer.
It will be in 2037. It rotates.
Kindly do a little research before forming and voicing your opinion.
Have you done research on Atheism? Please do a little before making comments like this.
It's not a tourist attraction that you're just going to stop it ffs.
It's a tourist attraction for people who tell themselves 3-5 times a day a fairytale exists.
Well it's not for you to decide things for them or shit on other people's beliefs if you don't agree with them. If you're an atheist, that's your belief. You're not the supreme being.
It's not for you to tell me what I can and cannot do. By definition Atheism is a lack of belief.
With all those effective prayers being uttered? Some divine being didn’t intervene? It’s almost like it’s made up.
If anyone else told themselves 3-5 times a day something exists, we would be correct to critique and make fun of them.
That’s brutal
Religion is a scary thing, kids
Politics aside, this is genuinely a tragic situation. It shows how dedicated people can get for their religion. May they rest in peace. EDIT: I'm not supporting this btw
Peak Reddit, you’re getting downvoted for showing empathy and concern
this is the comment that gets downvoted?! lmao
it probably got downvoted because I wrote "piece" instead of "peace" like the idiot I am.
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Tragic. i went to pride in my city yesterday and where i am it was about 100 degrees, had a reading as high as 103. saw so many people look absolutely exhausted and slumped over. was thinking that all of these summertime events (not talking about the Hajj here) are going to have to be moved to offseasons in the coming years. just curious if it will be before or after widespread heat related deaths or hospitalizations.
Fair point actually.
I’m curious about age and health going in. Not saying that it couldn’t kill young people, but I wonder how many of these are old or sick people trying to do the trip.