The reference to hybrids comes from a survey, not actual consumer behaviour. At the end of the day the article is only really noting that second hand EVs are getting cheaper, which is a good thing to drive investment in charging infrastructure.
EV prices have always crashed quickly, because it's an emerging technology and each new iteration is significantly better than the previous one. The average max mileage has gone up from about 180 to 220 to 260 to 300 over the last four years (approximately). If people can get nearly twice the mileage with a new car, they'll do it, meaning the older versions are less inherently valuable. It has very little to do with consumer preferences and much to do with very practical technological concerns.
Exactly. This survey looks designed to try to paint the market as a reflection of consumer preferences whereas it is more that consumers now have more attractive offers due to the technical development of batteries.
I think a large part of it is also the underlying fear that old EVs might have issues with the battery, which is like having the engine die in your ICE car but even more costly to fix. Nobody wants to be the one out of warranty when something that costs a good percent of the total value of the car dies.
Isn't that worse? It shows that people are not willing to buy second hand evs which might drive people from buying them since the resale value is lower?
EV used market in Norway is still strong. I just checked my own car. Looks like used prices for Tesla model 3 2019 are the same price as six months ago.
I think the estimate is 12-15 years, though that is I think the very low end of the estimates. That would definitely have to be factored in long-term though.
For people who use their cars until they are really old (like me) this is not a problem. We have a 2012 leaf and still love it. Its range is about 2/3 of the original and it still does everything we need it to (it’s an around town vehicle). I’ve never bought gas for it, it has needed almost no maintenance and my driveway s complexion is markedly improved.
I've always wondered the same thing. It is so stupid to look at used prices just like it was stupid to only talk about ranges. The car and oil industry is shitting in their pants and they'll do whatever they can in order to slow the change that is coming.
People have looked at used prices on all cars basically forever. Not sure why EVs would be different? Unless you are keeping the car until it dies, the residual value is likely to be relevant. It isn’t some kind of big oil conspiracy that people want lower depreciation vehicles vs higher ones (whatever the fuel).
The drop in value is a little more severe in (premium) ev's at the moment (model s plaid or porsche taycan). Comparable cars in that range don't seem to take quite as drastic a hit to value (depending on brand).
That being said, if you can actually afford a vehicle like that...it's probably not the biggest deal in the world to you since it should be a lease for tax purposes, and you've likely got other cars/toys, so I wouldn't worry about it until you're there.
What makes people I know not want to get one at all is the price of battery tech. My old man doesn't like the idea of blowing money on a depreciating vehicle. He usually buys a cheap/reliable (cad $5k-10k) 10-15 year old Toyota or Honda with around 100k kms on it and drives it another 10-15 years. You can't convince someone who uses that method to pick up a car that might need a battery that costs more than what they would consider spending on a vehicle in the first place.
If they can figure out the fresh battery swap for less than 5k (usd), or figure out how to replace cells more efficiently at lower costs to repair than what a routine ice cars service comes to, there are a sea of people that would go buy a used model 3 or something along those lines right now (me included).
Big luxury saloons have always had horrendous depreciation. Most buyers are wary of running something so complex out of warranty. Look how fast petrol/diesel range rovers, or big mercs depreciate
I mean... People buy Pickup Trucks that lose 1/2 their value the second it leaves the lot.
Buying a car is about ego just as much as it is every other confounding factor
Pickups hold their value really well past the usual 20% hit within the first year from what I've seen. Idk where you're seeing 1/2, but if I can find one on the market that's only been driven for a few weeks for $25-30k instead of $50-60k, I'd probably buy it.
I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I know a couple people in Canada that sold their used diesel trucks down in the states a few years ago for almost as much as they originally bought them for.
Trucks hold value really well overall. The person you replied to likely formed that opinion from some trucks bad type feelings.
Yeah, I'm in Canada. My coworker bought a new Bronco (big model) and sold it for more than what he paid to someone in the States after driving it for a year. Other guys I work with are still getting crazy offers for their trucks from their dealerships. (We get employee discounts that vary across models so people have more incentive to go with certain vehicles like trucks over small suvs)
I keep waiting for used car prices to normalize a bit with the availability of new stuff increasing since I'm looking to swap from my Honda Fit to something a little bigger/nicer for highway driving, but it doesn't seem to be happening yet. 😅
I was told that info by a dealer about a year and a half ago
I do personally think Trucks as your daily commuter car are bad for the various multitudes of other reasons like vehicle weight, hood height, ground visibility/blind spots, emissions/fuel efficiency, and nighttime safety concerns due to headlight height.
Similar issues with full size SUVs
But that dislike was not the basis of my information
Also, there's a quality of life improvement for never having to look at the cost of gas.
"gas prices expected to increase" no longer causes dread and anxiety for me
problem with evs is the tech improves so much with each gen, the old ones just become outdated fast. crashing resale prices is one of the main reasons I haven't bought an ev yet. even hybrids, I can't imagine resale rates are great.
Good for some buyers though. I’d happily buy an EV with only 100km range if it was super cheap. I barely leave my small town anyway, and I’ve got a petrol car for the very rare longer trip.
You have to be a little careful with those, the first gen didn't have a thermal management system so the batteries actually do wear out.
They fixed that for the second gen onward.
Would be great if you you just put smaller batteries in the big evs for cheap. I wouldnt have an issue buying a previously 40k ev for dirt cheap, if you could put in a 100km battery for dirt cheap too. But like it is now you can usually only replace the battery with the same battery and it usually costs as much as a new ev.
It may be just you repeating an argument you heard (which is fine, just pointing out it's not correct) - That last point just simply isn't true - I have an m3 2021. A new battery would cost me 6-8k today. Be even cheaper in a few years.
The battery has an 8 year warranty anyway (so if the battery goes below 70 percent capacity/ health in 8 years they replace it) - but it's just not likely to need replacing for a minimum 15 years and tbh it will probably last the lifetime of the car. The battery wouldn't just die, it would slowly degrade. So rather than 250 miles, I may get 150 miles as an extreme example.
After 3 years, my battery health is at 98 percent, so it would be a long time before I needed to replace it for any reason (if atall), and that's me 100 percent charging using Superchargers, as I live in a terrace house. So I charge the most unhealthy way possible.
Our new house is currently being built, which will have solar and battery. So I'll be charging the car more or less "for free" moving forward.
Judging by loosing 2 percent in 3 years, you can see it would be a long way off before getting anywhere near that less milage per charge.
A new battery costs similar to a new engine replacement in my experience.
The savings I'm making yearly with no services, no major engine repairs, and petrol vs electric, even if I need to replace the battery after a decade, I'm still massively quids in.
As a side point, great video on a tesla that has done nearly half a million miles on the same battery as a taxi. Still fine and no issues. The advantage is that there isn't an engine. So no servicing is required, and because there aren't major moving parts like a standard car, they are more reliable longterm.
I bought it second hand, so saved 30 percent off the new price. I personally wouldn't buy one new with how fast they drop in price.
For a 25k car, I'm over the moon with it. Had it for a year, new features updated every few months so it doesn't get that "this car feels old" feeling.
Ultimately, i'm buying it to drive and save money long term. If it drops a few k every year, I'm not bothered. It's not an investment, it's a car I'll run to the ground, and I can get around on the cheap. I work from home, so it's not a long distance car. Whenever we do go long distance, I drive for 3 hours, and nip in for a snack or toilet while it charges for 20 mins.
But if it's not for you, it's not for you. Nothing wrong with that :)
And again, please don't take this as a typical "reddit NO YOU'RE WRONG", I understand there are opinions and views out there that are out of date
The only real worry with the battery pack is if a cell goes bad.
Then the question is can you get the cell replaced or do you have to replace the whole pack? If you can replace the bad cell, your battery costs are a fraction of the cost of replacing a battery pack.
There are companies that can replace a bad cell in the UK in a tesla. I've never heard of it happening personally, but I assume it can happen - but then tesla would cover you for that type of thing I would think / tesla would replace it in the first 8 years.
But at that stage, I'd happily replace the battery so it's fresh range again (by which point it would be far cheaper than the 6/8k it is currently)
I keep reading about all of these new batteries coming to market that will change the EV world.
I want to hear how you can swap in one of these batteries so you can take advantage of the newer technology and not have to rely on the original technology.
I know someone on the UK subredit that had a 2018 tesla and had the battery replaced under warranty. Tesla swapped the old battery for the 2022 battery, as they didn't have the old version on stock. Meant he could charge his car to 100 percent regularly instead of 80 percent (which is recommended with the pre 2021 battery's) So it must be possible
Yeah in the UK the warranty is with the car, not the owner (I know we have good consumer protection so not sure if it's standard around the world), but that's the same for all things in the UK. Always the device / thing / work carried out
> It may be just you repeating an argument you heard (which is fine, just pointing out it's not correct)
It depends on the brand and model.
[Vancouver EV owner shares cautionary tale after car deemed ‘total loss’](https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/)
Did you know that folks are swapping batteries for the Nissan Leaf? Essentially they're replacing a 24kwh (80 miles range) battery with a 62kwh (215 miles range) battery. The batteries are usually from wrecked cars and avg around 5-10k.
Running off this, I converted my Honda CRX into an EV using Nissan Leaf parts. Started with a 24 kwh battery and upgrade it later to a 40kwh. I also get 200 miles range because my car is 1000lbs lighter than the Leaf.
Putting little batteries into something bigger doesn't make much sense but it's doable. Check out diyelectriccar and you'll find tons of builds.
>Would be great if you you just put smaller batteries in the big evs for cheap.
or hear me out... just build small economy non-performance electric cars. so it isn't a big investment for a car that "maybe i can't use it on some trips" and just renting for the once a year trip up to the mountains is a viable option.
some ppl need daily or frequent range and unless some tech comes to enable, it will always be a bad tick to be pure battery... but for many or most... 150mi per day/charge is more than workable... if it wasn't such an investment.
and make the batteries some standard so that they can be replaced easy ffs. propriity everything is such a money grab.
IDK maybe i'm on a different plant to think
# [2. Mini Hardtop Cooper SE Classic—$31,895.](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g40605495/cheapest-electric-cars/)
is still a ridiculous amount to have to spend on a "small utility car."
and...
* ***Car and Driver*** **rating: 6/10**
* **EPA-estimated driving range: 114 miles**
sorry FTS
* ***Car and Driver*** **rating: 6/10**
* **EPA-estimated driving range: 114 miles**
sorry FTS other markets have far better options for half the cost. protectionism at the consumers expense at its best *worst*. and word, stupid expensive now and forever if they get their way.
i'm old but this is like asking "what is google" lol but i understand...
Fuck
That
Shit
as in that much for a bad car that does barely 100miles per charge? know corners need to be cut for a utility but mini is not near utility spartan nor priced that way IMHO < seriously, google is a resource if not in your language or experience.
no shit ppl don't buy them, they are anemic and expensive to buy or maintain.
Well jeah, that would also be an option. Though so far the small economy evs are still around 20k. (There are cheaper ones, but those are like 2 seats only and barely any trunk space, etc...)
byd can make 'em even less (how is not a moral point here, cheap stuff from china all has the same cost/pricing vectors IHMO) but lobbyists and US politicians have tariff and goobermint subsidized enabling the auto mfgr to continue to be fat lazy focused on quarterly profits... slobs that don't even protect their union workers (they produce in mexico to cut the unions).
and still us companies could get into the making small utilitarian affordable vehicles, again. but no, no money.
Bettery replacement is more of a myth than a reality. Batteries are made to last the life of the car and are not more often changed than the motors in a ICE vehicle.
That highly depends on the manufacturer and how the battery is used. I can see a decent amount of evs for sale with broken batteries (like barely running amyore with full charge) that would otherwise work perfectly fine (at least according to the listings)
Let me guess - they are all Nissan Leafs of the first generation? Those did not have a thermal management system and had a tendency to die early. Other EVs not so much.
In the U.S. the average driver drives 13500 miles so over 20 years that’s 270k miles and a good chunk of cars will need a transmission/engine change before then that will cost more than the car is worth. The average car driven by the average driver will last 200k miles and 12 years since those are averages for every car that makes it 24 years there is also a car that is totaled on year 1
That's probably about right for EVs too. Old generation Teslas are 10+ years old with 90%+ of their stated battery capacity at this point.
The only real exception are 1st gen products without active battery thermal management like the old Nissan Leafs.
> Bettery replacement is more of a myth than a reality.
I'd say because BEVs haven't been on the market for very long. I can think of maybe 8 hybrid batteries we've replaced in the time I've been on the tools and they were from 20 series prius' (the early 2000's model). In saying that they weren't getting regularly fast charged, so had the most optimal charging a battery could have. Battery life in BEVs is gonna be a 'wait and see' deal until the real world starts spitting out results.
Going to end up having to take the batteries out every morning and give them a lick before you put them back in like the TV remote so you can get to work. Minor inconvenience for the right price.
I've done some math on this, for local driving, all I'd need is about 120km range to be happy, so maybe 160km range to make up for winter range reduction.
There should be cheaper options in my range, the battery itself is much of the cost.. of a TM3 cost is 60k and most of that going towards the batteries with 550km range, where's my $20k 160km range car for local stuff?
if you live in the US you could theoretically get a mazda mx-30 with like 6000 miles for 13-16k after tax rebates, which is an amazing price for a nice city car
The crashed resale prices are great for adoption though. Growing up, cars depreciated and that was normal. Somewhere along the way people expected cars to hold their values which is a bit weird.
I picked up an old electric 2015 Fiat 500e for 5k. Runs great and I get free charging at work.
Crashing prices for used cars is a good thing in my opinion.
The problem with ev's right now, its the vhs/betamax cd/minidisk & hd-dvd/bluray saga all over again.. except with 60-100k vehicles.
Its a punt. If you plan to run it for life, or get it on lease where you can swap it out after a few years, no worries. But if you plan to sell/trade in at 3-5 yrs, you have no clue what it's going to be worth.
Battery ev's could end up the obsolete tech, or they could dominate. Nobody knows which way it will go. And the best quality doesn't always win. It's usually price and convenience.
Don’t you think if technology improves so much that current Li-ion batteries are worthless then existing ICE cars would be even more worthless? If EV didn’t have range issues they would be the best car by far. I’m assuming whatever comes after today’s Li-ion will have higher energy density, range and performance.
>If EV didn’t have range issues they would be the best car by far.
You also need to develop charging infrastructure. Hardly anyone that doesn’t live in an SFH can charge overnight.
We don't know whats going to happen. Ice won't be worthless for a while but obsolete ev tech might.
Bigger faster charging, swappable powerpacks, fuel cells for hybrids, unkown other things..
If you have a 5yo ev that takes a few hours to charge on obsolete, hard to find and slowly replaced chargers, while everyone else is done in a few mins. It's going to be n issue.
Or maybe chargers themselves will be obsolete with on road charging..
ICE won’t be worthless but if the cost of fuel goes up it may as well be. people are complaining in the U.S. about $3 a gallon while it’s close to $7 a gallon in France. Imagine what would happen if it hit $10 a gallon in the U.S.. people would very quickly stop complaining about the convenience of ICEs
What I mean is if this magical tech is right around the corner, that allows charging in a few mins for hundreds of miles of range… why would anyone buy an ICE car? You’re paying more per mile in gas than electricity, for a car which requires constant maintenance, and on top of all of that you are paying for less performance. Even cheap EVs these days can do 0-60 in 6-7 seconds. How long does a Corolla take? It just doesn’t make sense. This magical EV tech is an existential threat to all cars, not just EVs. The only car that will be immune are cars that have an emotional attachment to the engine, such as a classic Mustang or a Porsche 911.
Because the infrastucture for ice is stable. When the final format settles then ice will phase out (but they still have years of servicable life). Unlike whatever form of ev loses the battle, and getts tossed on the scrapheap.
FYI china already has battery swapping starions, hybrid hydrogen ev's are pretty much here.
Battery and charger tech is changing by the year.
There is a road capable of charging an ev as it drives already.
This tech is around, its just a matter of waiting for the one that dominates
> There is a road capable of charging an ev as it drives already.
Where? Sounds implausible. Even phone wireless chargers are only 75% efficient, and they're not moving at 60kph.
I was lucky. My hybrid's battery died just weeks before warranty expired. Toyota swapped it for a new one. I would not have invested that much into an old car otherwise. And the resale value for a hybrid without a usable battery? Nothing.
Whilst there is truth to this, it’s not entirely true/not necessarily an overly important factor. I bought my EV (Renault Zoe) in 2020. New models from 2019 were sort of the first (in UK anyway) blend of really good mileage (in EV terms), but also being more affordable (would not go as far as saying affordable, but priced at a point that wasn’t outrageous).
Of course, since then there have been more EVs released, my Renault Zoe which can do around 200 miles has been outpaced by some newer models which can do as much as 300. But the Renault Zoe is still the same price (if not more due to inflation), and any model that is “better” comes at a comparatively much higher cost
Now, that’s not to say a new car won’t be out tomorrow that can do 400 miles - but tbh, given my car is also a rapid charge model (and I live in the UK so not a huge country) the 200, mile range is plenty for any drive I ever have to do. I don’t have a need to sell for a better model as it’s sufficient, unless I simply just decided I fancied a car with longer range
we have had massive amounts of inflation these last years, an unprecedented amount. it is highly unlikely (hopefully anyway) that that rate of inflation will continue. and hopefully as well, they will actually start making some affordable evs thereby dropping the value of all older evs even more.
So you can't rely on inflation to keep your ev value up.
Sorry if my comment was misconstrued - I wasn’t saying I was relying on inflation to keep the value of my EV up, I’m saying that my car brand new is more expensive than when I bought it (whereas ordinarily you’d obviously expect it to go the other way). However, newer EV models are still comparatively much more expensive than my car new, so even though my model is a few years old and there are newer cars with better range, the newer models are much less affordable, and the bang you get for the buck on my model is very good.
One thing you are right on, any model pre 2019 (before when range truly did leap for EVs) is now effectively very low value, as the range on those cars was problematic (I.e. long distance travelling was not really feasible with those models), and newer models are vastly superior to them now. But the iterations of the models we have now are less impactful, as the range of models nowadays is already at a good baseline
Battery. The SS batteries are out in 2025 and their range is like 600 miles and they reportedly last over 1 million miles. China is releasing the Sodium batteries that are supposed to be dirt cheap and almost completely ethically sourced (uses salt and graphite), it's how BYD reached their sub 10K 400km range car. Tesla announced their 4 million mile battery and just recently announced it passed it's 1 millionth mile in tests (although Elon is.... fuckin Elon). Some chemistries are supposed to allow for 50% charge in 10 mins. Electric cars honestly more closely resemble Iphones. At the start, one iteration is gonna be leaps and bounds ahead of the other, Iphone 2, 3 4 etc till they reach the limit of the tech and kind of plateau, like current gen Iphones. Also a lot of Tesla's flooded the market because initially Elon said self driving gonna happen on the Model 3. however it looks like he was full of shit and that's not happening, so Hertz dumped thousands of them.
Self driving had nothing to do with Hertz dropping their EV fleet. They dropped it because their implementation was garbage and resale values dropped. Car rental places don't keep their cars long and right now owning an EV is only cost effective if you plan to own it for the life of the car.
Just a guess but its durability is probably more of an indicator of how *well* it works till it gets there. Presumably, the longer the more useful it is over a longer timeframe (less than 1 mil).
Would you buy a new GPU if you knew the next generation is just around the corner and is promised to have 70% better performance?
As for mileage, it matters because of potential costs to replace a battery? It's not cheap to do so (at least for now). ICE cars don't measure in miles because the engines don't have a chemical efficiency that naturally decreases over time. If well maintained, an ICE car run for 15 years. An EV battery loses potency over time. So obviously the longer it lasts, the better.
That situation used to be the norm for computers for decades. Not just the GPU. CPU, Ethernet, wifi, motherboard chipsets, RAM, storage - everything got massively better and cheaper every couple of years.
But while you could always wait another year and get something better for the money, you couldn't use it while you waited.
In the past 5 years, the incremental improvements between generations of computer tech isn't really that big anymore. So now you could easily just skip 2 or 3 generations and get something that will have a significant benefit over what you currently have. I'm EVs will eventually get there, sooner rather than later. But as it stands, too much of the EV tech is being improved at a rate that makes it unattractive to buy one now.
EVs also don't have a timing belt to go, or a gasket to leak coolant into your engine block, or engines made of steel and aluminum with different coefficients of expansion, or water pumps to fail, or O2 sensors to die, catalytic converters to be stolen etc... they are vastly simpler machines, and a lot of things that are going to economically kill a to 10+ year old car simply do not apply.
The hybrids hold waaaaay better than the ICE I just sold. My 2016 Impala V6 traded for 5/28k. A 2016 Camry XLE Hybrid with the same mileage would have traded for 12/26k.
The hybrids actually hold value better, which is why I now drive a 24 Camry Hybrid.
Same. Saw all those Telsas for sale by Hertz and that made me rethink going full electric. Shit, read a story today that a toddler got stuck in a Tesla as the battery had died right after grandma closed the door. wtf, imagine running out of gas and getting locked out of your car as a result.
To be fair that's more of a fault of tesla's shitty engineering, it could happen in a petrol car if it is designed badly too.
All of those systems should have a simple, mechanical back-up.
>Imagine running out of gas and getting locked out of your car as a result.
I can't imagine that, because our trusty old gas car has a 12V battery which controls the door locking/unlocking, lights, radio, etc.
Oh wait, so does our EV and every other EV on the road! So the 'story' as you've described it is complete BS. Just like a gas car, even if the engine/main battery is dead, the interior of an EV including door locks functions completely fine.
Considering it's Tesla I'd be more likely to believe it was their software that fucked up and refused to unlock the doors, but again, that has nothing to do with being an EV.
An electrical fault or software bug locking a toddler inside a car can also happen to a gas vehicle. I’ve had one failing to start but starting the windshield wipers instead and needed to be "reboot" to behave properly.
Do not confuse the 12-V battery and the drive train battery.
If the story you read is accurate, then the toddler got trapped in the car because the 12-V battery died. This is 100% the owner's fault. On older Teslas, when the 12-V battery reaches end of life, a warning is pushed to the Tesla app on your phone and displayed on screen in the vehicle. The warning is very clear that the battery needs to be replaced with great urgency and that lots of bad things can happen if the battery is not replaced. The owner of this vehicle probably ignored the warning for several weeks or months and did not replace their battery, and they suffered the consequences.
Replacing the battery is extremely easy. When mine went out I was able to make a same day appointment with my local Tesla service center. It took about 30 min and cost $125.
Within the last few years Tesla switched the 12-V battery from lead acid to lithium ion, so the batteries no longer need to be replaced in the lifetime of the vehicle. So, even though there was already little reason to be concerned about this, now there is virtually zero reason to be concerned about it.
Exactly. Like other technology, there’s more and more fancy stuff each year. People would rather just buy it new with a brand new battery than to buy used.
It’s so weird..the phrasing in your comment was so specific and familiar, I could’ve sworn I read it elsewhere or was experiencing déjà vu..
The wording is almost [identical to this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/e9rTjg8EgI) by u/totesnotdog on another post 19 hours ago..
Crazy, I am certainly not a bit, but I've said nearly the same thing. But I didn't use brand names.
I am 100% with the og comment though.
I want to get to and from work, so keep me safe doing that.
2 seater is just fine, as long as it has a fair size trunk. Having a sweet sound system and adaptive cruise would be amazing.
Keep it low 20's - absolutely perfect.
I feel like there is an absolute market for fleet commuting cars.
Citroen have a released a basic 25k ev and a bunch of reviews are “I wish it had this luxury, I wish it had that luxury”. It is irritating that they aren’t even contextualising, just whinging.
I recently got an EV and it's quite life changing, previously I had a hybrid which I liked more than my turbo and NA engines, but the EV is perfect for me.
I just did a 200 mile trip and had 80 left with the ac blasting and mostly motorway miles.
That said, we have an ICE car for the second car in the house and without a driveway and the means to charge cheaply at home or for free at work, an EV makes absolutely no sense. For the week before I had the charger I was paying 80p per kw which is basically 20p per mile.
When it comes to a long road trip I will have to use the rapid chargers to top up but a couple of times a year is perfectly acceptable for me, when I'm paying 1-2p per mile with home charging.
The bit that gets me is how much people are offended by EV cars, it's like they personally insult them. I can only imagine it was like when Ford started mass producing cars and people still believed horses were better than an engine. "Ha, you have to put fuel in that, good luck finding a place to buy that; my horse eats what I don't want, sucker"
Plug-in hybrids are the logical next step while the electric grid is being expanded. It would be like a Prius that would get 125 mpg. Then all electric can take off once the grid is built - or solar/electric cars like Aptera could remove the demand completely from the grid.
The second hand market for EVs aren’t good due to availability. There are dealerships who have so many secondhand EVs they had to stop taking them as trade-ins.
Its issue is the degraded battery. An EVs battery is incredibly expensive to replace and does not like extreme climates (hot or cold). Very few people want to buy a used EV with a battery that’s at 70% capacity.
We have one Lexus hybrid SUV and one Tesla SUV. For daily chores I use the Tesla. It is charged at home at midnight. 2.5 years of ownership, 2% battery degradation and other than tire rotation no maintenance. I hardly use the brakes because the regeneration shows the car when the fit is removed from the accelerator. For an interstate trip with family we only use the Lexus which is far more comfortable. The Tesla has low profile tires, hard suspension and more road noise in the cabin. It heats up in the summer due to its full glass roof. It is very poorly designed car. My ideal EV would be a Lexus EV. I would not recommend an EV because the first generation models are need better technology, denser batteries, faster charging during interstate trips and away from home. With each year summer setting new records clearly we need to reduce green house gases including C02. More solar panels, more EVs will help future generations. As a baby boomer I worry for my grandkids. In 50 years what will the weather be like. Many parts of the world will be unlivable leading to mass migration and civil strife. The shallow seas around UAE will act as a night “sun”. Many crops will not grow in the tropical zone. Climate change is real. We can ask do it not to reduce our carbon print.
Hybrid is the worst of both worlds actually. It's still a fossil fuel burning cars and uses more different components, eradicating one of the advantages of EVs.
But it's a useful bridge technology for a while and provides buyers with peace of mind in the interim period.
You're right. Hybrid is more of a stopgap technology to tie through until EV technology and infrastructure mature but at the moment is going through hiccups.
I dont know, the Yaris is considered one of the cheapest cars in the world to maintain because its so reliable despite having to deal with the potential breaking of both electric and gasoline components.
One of the main selling points of a hybrid is not that people want an electric car, its that gasoline costs are low.
A hybrid, like for example the Yaris, will swap between electric and gasoline whenever it needs to without the driver needing to manually charge the car so you dont even notice its there outside of gas costs.
Models and manufacturers have their own variance in reliability.
But fundamentally EVe are just much simpler to convert energy into movement. It's basically a battery, a motor and some cabling. To be fair the battery gets a bit of extra complication with thermal management to optimize safety and lifespan.
And the EV motor doesn't even need to have parts prone to friction to work. Doesn't even need oil.
Thanks to recuperation EVs hardly need to use brakes - the motor just switches to be a generator and turns kinetic energy back to electricity.
An ICE car has a lot more components that have moving parts, get very hot and need maintenance and will get used up within a few years. It's fundamentally more prone to have parts getting used up. Brake pads, spark plugs, mufflers, etc...
To be fair, hybrids have regenrative breaking as well. And accelerating with addition of the electric motors. So less strain on the engine and breaks during high load. Which makes them more reliable than normal ICE cars. But fully electric will still be better obviously.
It's a compromise concept. And thus it has the advantages and disadvantages of a compromise.
IMHO their main selling point is getting people over range anxiety while the infrastructure is still being built up and people need to adapt their habits.
Nope, they don't.
The discussion about lithium deposits is silly. The number of known reserves of a few years ago is already out of date and more will be found now that it's worthwhile to look harder for them.
In the 70s the world had a few decades of known oil reserves left - yet more were found since then and we would actually have less problems if it did run out.
Also batteries can use a variety of chemistry's and various alternatives are in research or already on their way to availability. And it can get recycled. Unlike fossil fuels - which gets used up and ends up in the atmosphere.
Hybrids are entirely irresponsible (in the long run) because they still use fossils to operate in a hybrid mode. As soon as you don't use fossils in a hybrid anymore you have a silly EV with unused parts than can fail and need maintenance. As long as it uses fossils (even at a reduced rate) it's part of a larger problem were trying to fix.
It's ok-ish as a bridge tech. But not a long term option.
You are shortsighted and letting what you consider perfect to be the enemy of good. PHEV fill the niche that many drivers want:
Good fuel economy on short daily trips due to mostly using home changed electricity.
Highly efficient when using gasoline.
Ability to refuel in minutes at anytime removing all range anxiety.
It’s a winning solution for the current market. Which is why PHEV are increasing faster than pure EV sales.
https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2024/05/15/global_ev_sales_continue_to/
It's not the best of both worlds though. You get a minimal MPG increase that you could achieve by just getting a smaller vehicle, but now you also have to maintain an electric drivetrain in addition to a gas one. Statistically they have more issues than either an ICE or EV.
>best of both world
Are you smoking exhaust fumes?
Hybrids:
* have exhaust emissions
* are more complex (two drive systems) and hence:
* • are more prone to failure
* • are more difficult to service
All the downsides of internal combustion (more servicing, exhaust emissions) with the facade of being electric.
----
edit: since people are replying "they're more reliable" without providing any numbers, here are numbers.
>Consumer reports finds that hybrids have about 25% less issues than pure ICE cars.
That's because [Toyota in general has less issues than other makes.](https://i.imgur.com/YRtShGZ.jpeg) Same for Kia, Ford, Honda, and Nissan, which sell the bulk of the hybrids. You might as well say Toyota, Honda, Kia, Ford, and Nissan ICE vehicles have 25% less issues than the average ICE vehicle.
But if you compare apples to apples, for example Toyota hybrids to Toyota ICEs and BEV, you get [this](https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/15/5/183):
|Vehicle|Toyota BZ3|Toyota Aqua|Toyota Prius|Toyota Axio|Toyota Allion|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
|Maintenance costs|$3267|$6192|$6610|$4080|$4080|
So, comparing apples to apples (or Toyotas to Toyotas) the maintenance costs of the hybrids are 50% higher than ICE and about double than BEV, which would be expected.
This is [Simpson's Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox). If you compare the average of all hybrids, they're better than the average of all ICE. But if you compare Toyota hybrids to Toyota ICE, they're more expensive to maintain, and so on for each make.
Toyota hybrids are not prone to failure. They are actually more reliable. The transmission is much simpler (in a toyota hybrid) than a regular ice. They don't have the belts,starter, or alternator. They have the same regen braking that allows brake pads to last longer.
Everyone.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/
Pure Hybrids have 26% less problems than gas cars. Electric cars have 79% MORE problems than gas cars.
Toyota and Lexus (Toyota’s luxury brand) lead the industry.
>”Lexus, Toyota, and Mini are the three most reliable brands in this year’s annual auto reliability brand rankings, with the two Japanese brands swapping spaces from last year. “
>”Overall, hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE). Some standouts include the Lexus UX and NX Hybrid and the Toyota Camry Hybrid, Highlander Hybrid, and RAV4 Hybrid.”
Hybrid is the best option for a combination of reliability, range and efficiency.
>Electric cars have 79% MORE problems than gas cars.
You are severely misreading that report.
[This study](https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/15/5/183) and [this study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030626191731526X?via%3Dihub) show that PHEV maintenance is 50% higher than pure electric, when comparing electric, hybrid, and ICE across the same brand or across similarly-specced cars. Even [this Consumer Report report](https://imgur.com/YRtShGZ) shows that pure electric (Tesla) has lower maintenance than any other tested marque, though they don't break down according to BEV/PHEV/ICE.
>“It might not seem that long ago, but Toyota launched the Prius hybrid about 25 years ago,” Elek says. “Automakers have been making hybrids long enough that they’ve gotten really good at it. Plus, many hybrids are also made by manufacturers that tend to produce reliable vehicles overall, such as Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia.”
1. It's comparing different makes, instead of comparing similar models from the same maker.
2. It's a self-reported survey, not a proper measure of service and maintenance, but user-reported "problems" such as "broken interior trim"
This is not an estimate of reliability. It's user-reported "problems" that might be a misaligned door or a dim brake light and so on. Because Toyota, Hundai, Kia, and Ford dominate the hybrid market, hybrids have less "problems" such as bad trim because those are reliable auto-makers.
This has nothing to do with actual service and maintenance of the drive system.
How so? It generally cuts emissions by half but requires significantly less (Toyota's 1:6:90 rule, unless you've got better numbers) battery than a full EV (and therefore is much more affordable to the ordinary person) and doesn't need to sacrifice battery life to fast fill/charge.
Enough battery for daily errands around town. Flexibility to use gas on a road trip.
Main reason I won't get an EV as my primary vehicle: you're SOL if there is an extended power outage. Also Tesla having a bunch of powered stuff is dangerous if post is suddenly lost.
And how long will there be petrol available after drivers panic buy?
Think toilet paper, there will be some numbskull profiteer filling up to resell as soon there's an opportunity. This happens already in many countries where fuel is scarce.
So you are more worried about the car in a power outage than anything else not working without power? And you could use the car to power your home that could also be helpful. But if we add solar here then… Can you produce oil at home?
I do keep a stash of gas (i do cycle it so it doesn't go bad) in case of emergencies and a generator. I live in an area where hurricanes hit, though not frequently, so if the power goes out for a few days or a week or more, i can get by with gas. If I had solar, maybe EV could be viable.
You can use this generator to fill your car also. You have all the options in your hand. The car can help you for a few days feeding your home. Then the generator could help. The generator could work in the most efficient range to charge your car and your car could adapt perfectly to any condition like just one bulb running. The generator can’t do that.
Gas will run out pretty fast, if there is an extended power outage. And an EV can be used as a huge Powerbank that can power the household for a week. Adaptors needed, though.
Bigger evs have around 60kwh batteries. Depending on the country an average household can consume so much that this will last only a day or so little that it can last for even multiple weeks. I guess on average across all countries one week seems reasonable.
I have a 10 kWh battery at home and from fully charged that lasts until around 10 am the next day. This makes us fully off grid if it's not cloudy. Combined with a 50 kWh car battery you could easily run your fridge and lights for a week or so.
>I won't get an EV as my primary vehicle: you're SOL if there is an extended power outage
I live in a part of Australia that regularly gets massive storms, but also impacts from cyclones, bushfires and major floods. Every 2-3 years we have a major weather event where power is out for days at a time.
This is actually one of the big reasons I specifically got an EV, and I have an adapter I can plug into the charge port that turns my car into a generator on wheels. I can run any appliance that uses a standard household outlet like our fridge, freezer, water pump, septic system, lights, computers, etc. I can also plug in a portable cooktop, air fryer, kettle, etc to cook and boil water as well as power my router to keep the internet running because the mobile network only lasts about 6-12 hours in a full blackout. If it's cold I can run a heater, if it's hot I can sleep in the car with the AC on. A city near me recently had a power outage that lasted for weeks in some suburbs after a huge storm, and a lady was even able to [run a dialysis machine using her car](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/01/amazing-queensland-mum-uses-electric-car-to-save-sons-life-with-dialysis-during-power-outage).
Believe me when I say it works really, really well. If it's not a widespread power outage and the roads are clear I can just drive to a charger in a suburb that has power and fill up again, if it's a huge outage or I'm trapped at home I can switch over to our old portable generator and run appliances or even charge the car slowly. Most outages are resolved within 48 hours so the generator doesn't get much use these days, but it's still useful to have. I can also say from experience that simply plugging an adapter into the car and pulling a cable to the house is so much quicker than dragging out the generator, setting it up in a ventilated area, checking oil, fuel and finally getting it running, especially when it's often dark, windy and pouring rain.
EV's aren't perfect by any means, but for power outages they're pretty damn good (assuming you don't get a Tesla, because they don't have that function).
Jumping straight to EV in masse before infrastructure was in place was mightily stupid. Chevy Volt was perfect in its idea. Small enough battery for most city driving and a generator for everything else and everything powers an electric motor. This could have scaled to sedans, with pickup trucks probably benefiting more than anyone.
Guess the problem is people are scared of the longevity of the EVs. Either for the battery life or for “software” issues. I have to say I do include myself in such group. As someone with very little knowledge about them in general, I’m a little skeptical on such.
It was a good strategy when Tesla was the lead player. If you boost the whole market sales, and you are 90% of the market, it is the same.
Tesla had made it's charger an industry standard and sells them to the other companies, but also gets steady income.
Too bad they just fired their whole charging tech staff. And then rehired some of them. Because Musk is turning out to be a terrible child who happens to be a billionaire CEO.
EV charging market is still severely underserved and there is lots of room for growth. Even if Tesla made huge in-roads there is no problem with being a competitor. Another problem I had with EV charger is how they decided not to go with a standard.
You are right that a lack of charging standard is a problem. But lack of standards is somewhat normal for new and quickly developing tech.
But the EU standardized years ago and the US recently got an industry standard by Ford etc... switching to Teslas tech.
That problem is currently getting solved.
The issue with EVS for me is the ability to charge at home, which is really only available if you have a driveway/garage. Many houses have street parking or little carparks not necessarily next to the property. Once they solve a way of being able to cheaply and quickly install charging points at these areas, without them just being in the way, I imagine more people would go electric.
I'm not sure how they would tackle that issue though.
Unlikely to be cheap and quick, plus with the state of the roads, I don't really have confidence in the upkeep of such a large system.
Most likely would probably be battery tech that makes it small enough to be removable, then you could either take it indoors to charge (potential safety issues) or just got to a location (probably petrol station/supermarket) to swap a battery for a fully charged one, paying the difference in charge.
This would also stop vehicle price degradation due to battery lifespan.
We just are not there yet technology wise.
The EV market has a lot of issues, without even mentioning any charging network issues here are some of the reasons this is happening;
No one wants to buy a used EV with an old battery. People already have range anxiety with EVs imagine buying one that’s at 70% capacity.
They are very expensive to insure.
They can be very expensive to fix. A new battery can easily cost over $5,000.
They depreciate very fast.
Car batteries do not like extreme climates, causing faster capacity degradation in places with snow or high heat.
Dealerships are turning EVs trade-ins away. They get so many and they don’t want so much sitting on the lot that they won’t be able to sell the new ones they have on hand.
EVs are still making improvement jumps like it's going from a GTX 1080 to and RTX 4080 every year. It makes sense for most people to wait until the tech is more mature and standardized. That can also be said about charging infrastructure. It's a key reason I didn't get an EV.
You also loose all your car money if the ICE motor suddenly fails. But both are rare occurrences. Batteries don't just fail all the time. They're also not in low capacity after a few years.
These are worries that people have because the tech is new and every single failure goes into a headline. While ICE car is totaled due to motor crapping out is a boring statistic. Something people are used to (used to the fact that while it can happen it's sufficiently unlikely to happen to them soon).
Nah, it depends on the value of the vehicle, repairing or replacing an engine is indeed expensive but definitely worth it if the vehicle has significant value. If the batteries fail in a newish EV a replacement might be too expensive for someone who put most of their money in a vehicle because they have to get to work somehow. It's a big financial risk for people in that situation. But it's good news that fairly new used EVs are getting cheaper, that means the risk will be lower for those who need an entry level electric vehicle.
It will be the same for EVs. Either the failure totals the car, or the replacement will be worth it. Both are expensive and can total the car. But in either case it can be worthwhile - depending on particular circumstances.
Either way it's a sufficiently rare occurrence to not be a major worry. It's just that with ICE cars people are used to this and nobody writes an article about the millionths ICE motor failure. While batteries are new and failures often make the headlines.
It's odd. I read that sales of EVs are ramping up and China is being cock blocked to allow the big auto markets to sell their cars without the threat of cheap China cars.
Eventually, there won't be a reason to consider gas unless you own a classic.
For the retro refit crowd crashing used prices means second hand donor parts getting cheaper. This is just good news for the health of the entire industry, cars are way overvalued as a component of a debt bubble
The reference to hybrids comes from a survey, not actual consumer behaviour. At the end of the day the article is only really noting that second hand EVs are getting cheaper, which is a good thing to drive investment in charging infrastructure.
EV prices have always crashed quickly, because it's an emerging technology and each new iteration is significantly better than the previous one. The average max mileage has gone up from about 180 to 220 to 260 to 300 over the last four years (approximately). If people can get nearly twice the mileage with a new car, they'll do it, meaning the older versions are less inherently valuable. It has very little to do with consumer preferences and much to do with very practical technological concerns.
Exactly. This survey looks designed to try to paint the market as a reflection of consumer preferences whereas it is more that consumers now have more attractive offers due to the technical development of batteries.
I think a large part of it is also the underlying fear that old EVs might have issues with the battery, which is like having the engine die in your ICE car but even more costly to fix. Nobody wants to be the one out of warranty when something that costs a good percent of the total value of the car dies.
27% of new car sales are leases. A low residual value increases the cost of leasing, and has a detrimental effect on sales.
Isn't that worse? It shows that people are not willing to buy second hand evs which might drive people from buying them since the resale value is lower?
Nah, just that there has been a general shortage of EVs, and now that EVs have become affordable, more people can buy new ones.
EV used market in Norway is still strong. I just checked my own car. Looks like used prices for Tesla model 3 2019 are the same price as six months ago.
Would you have to get a new battery? How much of the car cost is in that?
I think the estimate is 12-15 years, though that is I think the very low end of the estimates. That would definitely have to be factored in long-term though.
For people who use their cars until they are really old (like me) this is not a problem. We have a 2012 leaf and still love it. Its range is about 2/3 of the original and it still does everything we need it to (it’s an around town vehicle). I’ve never bought gas for it, it has needed almost no maintenance and my driveway s complexion is markedly improved.
I've always wondered the same thing. It is so stupid to look at used prices just like it was stupid to only talk about ranges. The car and oil industry is shitting in their pants and they'll do whatever they can in order to slow the change that is coming.
People have looked at used prices on all cars basically forever. Not sure why EVs would be different? Unless you are keeping the car until it dies, the residual value is likely to be relevant. It isn’t some kind of big oil conspiracy that people want lower depreciation vehicles vs higher ones (whatever the fuel).
The drop in value is a little more severe in (premium) ev's at the moment (model s plaid or porsche taycan). Comparable cars in that range don't seem to take quite as drastic a hit to value (depending on brand). That being said, if you can actually afford a vehicle like that...it's probably not the biggest deal in the world to you since it should be a lease for tax purposes, and you've likely got other cars/toys, so I wouldn't worry about it until you're there. What makes people I know not want to get one at all is the price of battery tech. My old man doesn't like the idea of blowing money on a depreciating vehicle. He usually buys a cheap/reliable (cad $5k-10k) 10-15 year old Toyota or Honda with around 100k kms on it and drives it another 10-15 years. You can't convince someone who uses that method to pick up a car that might need a battery that costs more than what they would consider spending on a vehicle in the first place. If they can figure out the fresh battery swap for less than 5k (usd), or figure out how to replace cells more efficiently at lower costs to repair than what a routine ice cars service comes to, there are a sea of people that would go buy a used model 3 or something along those lines right now (me included).
Big luxury saloons have always had horrendous depreciation. Most buyers are wary of running something so complex out of warranty. Look how fast petrol/diesel range rovers, or big mercs depreciate
I mean... People buy Pickup Trucks that lose 1/2 their value the second it leaves the lot. Buying a car is about ego just as much as it is every other confounding factor
Pickups hold their value really well past the usual 20% hit within the first year from what I've seen. Idk where you're seeing 1/2, but if I can find one on the market that's only been driven for a few weeks for $25-30k instead of $50-60k, I'd probably buy it.
I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I know a couple people in Canada that sold their used diesel trucks down in the states a few years ago for almost as much as they originally bought them for. Trucks hold value really well overall. The person you replied to likely formed that opinion from some trucks bad type feelings.
Yeah, I'm in Canada. My coworker bought a new Bronco (big model) and sold it for more than what he paid to someone in the States after driving it for a year. Other guys I work with are still getting crazy offers for their trucks from their dealerships. (We get employee discounts that vary across models so people have more incentive to go with certain vehicles like trucks over small suvs) I keep waiting for used car prices to normalize a bit with the availability of new stuff increasing since I'm looking to swap from my Honda Fit to something a little bigger/nicer for highway driving, but it doesn't seem to be happening yet. 😅
I was told that info by a dealer about a year and a half ago I do personally think Trucks as your daily commuter car are bad for the various multitudes of other reasons like vehicle weight, hood height, ground visibility/blind spots, emissions/fuel efficiency, and nighttime safety concerns due to headlight height. Similar issues with full size SUVs But that dislike was not the basis of my information
most people do not own their vehicle long term like this tho so resale value is important.
Driveway complexion is a thing?
Also, there's a quality of life improvement for never having to look at the cost of gas. "gas prices expected to increase" no longer causes dread and anxiety for me
problem with evs is the tech improves so much with each gen, the old ones just become outdated fast. crashing resale prices is one of the main reasons I haven't bought an ev yet. even hybrids, I can't imagine resale rates are great.
Good for some buyers though. I’d happily buy an EV with only 100km range if it was super cheap. I barely leave my small town anyway, and I’ve got a petrol car for the very rare longer trip.
Used Nissan Leafs have about a 100km range and are fairly inexpensive in many areas.
You have to be a little careful with those, the first gen didn't have a thermal management system so the batteries actually do wear out. They fixed that for the second gen onward.
Yep, can confirm, thankfully I’m under warranty but I’m In the process of having my Nissan Leaf bought out by Nissan due to battery degradation.
That’s what I drive and I live in a rural area with harsh winters. But for my family it really is a second car. Wouldn’t be capable as a only vehicle
Would be great if you you just put smaller batteries in the big evs for cheap. I wouldnt have an issue buying a previously 40k ev for dirt cheap, if you could put in a 100km battery for dirt cheap too. But like it is now you can usually only replace the battery with the same battery and it usually costs as much as a new ev.
It may be just you repeating an argument you heard (which is fine, just pointing out it's not correct) - That last point just simply isn't true - I have an m3 2021. A new battery would cost me 6-8k today. Be even cheaper in a few years. The battery has an 8 year warranty anyway (so if the battery goes below 70 percent capacity/ health in 8 years they replace it) - but it's just not likely to need replacing for a minimum 15 years and tbh it will probably last the lifetime of the car. The battery wouldn't just die, it would slowly degrade. So rather than 250 miles, I may get 150 miles as an extreme example. After 3 years, my battery health is at 98 percent, so it would be a long time before I needed to replace it for any reason (if atall), and that's me 100 percent charging using Superchargers, as I live in a terrace house. So I charge the most unhealthy way possible. Our new house is currently being built, which will have solar and battery. So I'll be charging the car more or less "for free" moving forward. Judging by loosing 2 percent in 3 years, you can see it would be a long way off before getting anywhere near that less milage per charge. A new battery costs similar to a new engine replacement in my experience. The savings I'm making yearly with no services, no major engine repairs, and petrol vs electric, even if I need to replace the battery after a decade, I'm still massively quids in. As a side point, great video on a tesla that has done nearly half a million miles on the same battery as a taxi. Still fine and no issues. The advantage is that there isn't an engine. So no servicing is required, and because there aren't major moving parts like a standard car, they are more reliable longterm. I bought it second hand, so saved 30 percent off the new price. I personally wouldn't buy one new with how fast they drop in price. For a 25k car, I'm over the moon with it. Had it for a year, new features updated every few months so it doesn't get that "this car feels old" feeling. Ultimately, i'm buying it to drive and save money long term. If it drops a few k every year, I'm not bothered. It's not an investment, it's a car I'll run to the ground, and I can get around on the cheap. I work from home, so it's not a long distance car. Whenever we do go long distance, I drive for 3 hours, and nip in for a snack or toilet while it charges for 20 mins. But if it's not for you, it's not for you. Nothing wrong with that :) And again, please don't take this as a typical "reddit NO YOU'RE WRONG", I understand there are opinions and views out there that are out of date
The only real worry with the battery pack is if a cell goes bad. Then the question is can you get the cell replaced or do you have to replace the whole pack? If you can replace the bad cell, your battery costs are a fraction of the cost of replacing a battery pack.
There are companies that can replace a bad cell in the UK in a tesla. I've never heard of it happening personally, but I assume it can happen - but then tesla would cover you for that type of thing I would think / tesla would replace it in the first 8 years. But at that stage, I'd happily replace the battery so it's fresh range again (by which point it would be far cheaper than the 6/8k it is currently)
I keep reading about all of these new batteries coming to market that will change the EV world. I want to hear how you can swap in one of these batteries so you can take advantage of the newer technology and not have to rely on the original technology.
I know someone on the UK subredit that had a 2018 tesla and had the battery replaced under warranty. Tesla swapped the old battery for the 2022 battery, as they didn't have the old version on stock. Meant he could charge his car to 100 percent regularly instead of 80 percent (which is recommended with the pre 2021 battery's) So it must be possible
does the warranty for the battery transfer to a second owner if sold again? I'm in the US.
Yeah in the UK the warranty is with the car, not the owner (I know we have good consumer protection so not sure if it's standard around the world), but that's the same for all things in the UK. Always the device / thing / work carried out
> It may be just you repeating an argument you heard (which is fine, just pointing out it's not correct) It depends on the brand and model. [Vancouver EV owner shares cautionary tale after car deemed ‘total loss’](https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/)
Did you know that folks are swapping batteries for the Nissan Leaf? Essentially they're replacing a 24kwh (80 miles range) battery with a 62kwh (215 miles range) battery. The batteries are usually from wrecked cars and avg around 5-10k. Running off this, I converted my Honda CRX into an EV using Nissan Leaf parts. Started with a 24 kwh battery and upgrade it later to a 40kwh. I also get 200 miles range because my car is 1000lbs lighter than the Leaf. Putting little batteries into something bigger doesn't make much sense but it's doable. Check out diyelectriccar and you'll find tons of builds.
>Would be great if you you just put smaller batteries in the big evs for cheap. or hear me out... just build small economy non-performance electric cars. so it isn't a big investment for a car that "maybe i can't use it on some trips" and just renting for the once a year trip up to the mountains is a viable option. some ppl need daily or frequent range and unless some tech comes to enable, it will always be a bad tick to be pure battery... but for many or most... 150mi per day/charge is more than workable... if it wasn't such an investment. and make the batteries some standard so that they can be replaced easy ffs. propriity everything is such a money grab.
Mini has their pure electrics languishing on the lots. A lot of people who are in the market for that price point rent and don’t have charger access.
IDK maybe i'm on a different plant to think # [2. Mini Hardtop Cooper SE Classic—$31,895.](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g40605495/cheapest-electric-cars/) is still a ridiculous amount to have to spend on a "small utility car." and... * ***Car and Driver*** **rating: 6/10** * **EPA-estimated driving range: 114 miles** sorry FTS
It’s in the same price range as a Leaf or most other new cars. Cars are stupid expensive now.
* ***Car and Driver*** **rating: 6/10** * **EPA-estimated driving range: 114 miles** sorry FTS other markets have far better options for half the cost. protectionism at the consumers expense at its best *worst*. and word, stupid expensive now and forever if they get their way.
What’s FTS?
i'm old but this is like asking "what is google" lol but i understand... Fuck That Shit as in that much for a bad car that does barely 100miles per charge? know corners need to be cut for a utility but mini is not near utility spartan nor priced that way IMHO < seriously, google is a resource if not in your language or experience. no shit ppl don't buy them, they are anemic and expensive to buy or maintain.
Well jeah, that would also be an option. Though so far the small economy evs are still around 20k. (There are cheaper ones, but those are like 2 seats only and barely any trunk space, etc...)
I mean a 2019 Bolt is like 20k CAD I can't imagine how cheap that is in freedom dollars. That's what I drive and it has like 250 miles of range.
byd can make 'em even less (how is not a moral point here, cheap stuff from china all has the same cost/pricing vectors IHMO) but lobbyists and US politicians have tariff and goobermint subsidized enabling the auto mfgr to continue to be fat lazy focused on quarterly profits... slobs that don't even protect their union workers (they produce in mexico to cut the unions). and still us companies could get into the making small utilitarian affordable vehicles, again. but no, no money.
Except you don't need to replace the battery...
Bettery replacement is more of a myth than a reality. Batteries are made to last the life of the car and are not more often changed than the motors in a ICE vehicle.
That highly depends on the manufacturer and how the battery is used. I can see a decent amount of evs for sale with broken batteries (like barely running amyore with full charge) that would otherwise work perfectly fine (at least according to the listings)
Let me guess - they are all Nissan Leafs of the first generation? Those did not have a thermal management system and had a tendency to die early. Other EVs not so much.
In the US manufacturers are required by law to have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty at a minimum on the battery packs.
What's the life of the car? Plenty of petrol / diesel cars will last 20+ years and 150k+ miles if looked after.
In the U.S. the average driver drives 13500 miles so over 20 years that’s 270k miles and a good chunk of cars will need a transmission/engine change before then that will cost more than the car is worth. The average car driven by the average driver will last 200k miles and 12 years since those are averages for every car that makes it 24 years there is also a car that is totaled on year 1
That's probably about right for EVs too. Old generation Teslas are 10+ years old with 90%+ of their stated battery capacity at this point. The only real exception are 1st gen products without active battery thermal management like the old Nissan Leafs.
How much would you be spending on maintenance over those 150k miles?
> Bettery replacement is more of a myth than a reality. I'd say because BEVs haven't been on the market for very long. I can think of maybe 8 hybrid batteries we've replaced in the time I've been on the tools and they were from 20 series prius' (the early 2000's model). In saying that they weren't getting regularly fast charged, so had the most optimal charging a battery could have. Battery life in BEVs is gonna be a 'wait and see' deal until the real world starts spitting out results.
Going to end up having to take the batteries out every morning and give them a lick before you put them back in like the TV remote so you can get to work. Minor inconvenience for the right price.
I bought 500e for 5k and its been awesome. Range is only 80 miles but I drive 4 miles to work and get free charging.
The average person drives less than 40 km per day, 100km range is nearly three days driving, I’d go that too
I've done some math on this, for local driving, all I'd need is about 120km range to be happy, so maybe 160km range to make up for winter range reduction. There should be cheaper options in my range, the battery itself is much of the cost.. of a TM3 cost is 60k and most of that going towards the batteries with 550km range, where's my $20k 160km range car for local stuff?
if you live in the US you could theoretically get a mazda mx-30 with like 6000 miles for 13-16k after tax rebates, which is an amazing price for a nice city car
The crashed resale prices are great for adoption though. Growing up, cars depreciated and that was normal. Somewhere along the way people expected cars to hold their values which is a bit weird. I picked up an old electric 2015 Fiat 500e for 5k. Runs great and I get free charging at work. Crashing prices for used cars is a good thing in my opinion.
The problem with ev's right now, its the vhs/betamax cd/minidisk & hd-dvd/bluray saga all over again.. except with 60-100k vehicles. Its a punt. If you plan to run it for life, or get it on lease where you can swap it out after a few years, no worries. But if you plan to sell/trade in at 3-5 yrs, you have no clue what it's going to be worth. Battery ev's could end up the obsolete tech, or they could dominate. Nobody knows which way it will go. And the best quality doesn't always win. It's usually price and convenience.
Don’t you think if technology improves so much that current Li-ion batteries are worthless then existing ICE cars would be even more worthless? If EV didn’t have range issues they would be the best car by far. I’m assuming whatever comes after today’s Li-ion will have higher energy density, range and performance.
>If EV didn’t have range issues they would be the best car by far. You also need to develop charging infrastructure. Hardly anyone that doesn’t live in an SFH can charge overnight.
We don't know whats going to happen. Ice won't be worthless for a while but obsolete ev tech might. Bigger faster charging, swappable powerpacks, fuel cells for hybrids, unkown other things.. If you have a 5yo ev that takes a few hours to charge on obsolete, hard to find and slowly replaced chargers, while everyone else is done in a few mins. It's going to be n issue. Or maybe chargers themselves will be obsolete with on road charging..
ICE won’t be worthless but if the cost of fuel goes up it may as well be. people are complaining in the U.S. about $3 a gallon while it’s close to $7 a gallon in France. Imagine what would happen if it hit $10 a gallon in the U.S.. people would very quickly stop complaining about the convenience of ICEs
What I mean is if this magical tech is right around the corner, that allows charging in a few mins for hundreds of miles of range… why would anyone buy an ICE car? You’re paying more per mile in gas than electricity, for a car which requires constant maintenance, and on top of all of that you are paying for less performance. Even cheap EVs these days can do 0-60 in 6-7 seconds. How long does a Corolla take? It just doesn’t make sense. This magical EV tech is an existential threat to all cars, not just EVs. The only car that will be immune are cars that have an emotional attachment to the engine, such as a classic Mustang or a Porsche 911.
Because the infrastucture for ice is stable. When the final format settles then ice will phase out (but they still have years of servicable life). Unlike whatever form of ev loses the battle, and getts tossed on the scrapheap. FYI china already has battery swapping starions, hybrid hydrogen ev's are pretty much here. Battery and charger tech is changing by the year. There is a road capable of charging an ev as it drives already. This tech is around, its just a matter of waiting for the one that dominates
> There is a road capable of charging an ev as it drives already. Where? Sounds implausible. Even phone wireless chargers are only 75% efficient, and they're not moving at 60kph.
Half the country wouldn't buy an EV even if they had 500 mile range and charge stations everywhere.
Why do you say that? I don’t think most people care, they just want the cheapest car, if an EV costs the same but is cheaper to run why would you not?
I was lucky. My hybrid's battery died just weeks before warranty expired. Toyota swapped it for a new one. I would not have invested that much into an old car otherwise. And the resale value for a hybrid without a usable battery? Nothing.
Whilst there is truth to this, it’s not entirely true/not necessarily an overly important factor. I bought my EV (Renault Zoe) in 2020. New models from 2019 were sort of the first (in UK anyway) blend of really good mileage (in EV terms), but also being more affordable (would not go as far as saying affordable, but priced at a point that wasn’t outrageous). Of course, since then there have been more EVs released, my Renault Zoe which can do around 200 miles has been outpaced by some newer models which can do as much as 300. But the Renault Zoe is still the same price (if not more due to inflation), and any model that is “better” comes at a comparatively much higher cost Now, that’s not to say a new car won’t be out tomorrow that can do 400 miles - but tbh, given my car is also a rapid charge model (and I live in the UK so not a huge country) the 200, mile range is plenty for any drive I ever have to do. I don’t have a need to sell for a better model as it’s sufficient, unless I simply just decided I fancied a car with longer range
we have had massive amounts of inflation these last years, an unprecedented amount. it is highly unlikely (hopefully anyway) that that rate of inflation will continue. and hopefully as well, they will actually start making some affordable evs thereby dropping the value of all older evs even more. So you can't rely on inflation to keep your ev value up.
Sorry if my comment was misconstrued - I wasn’t saying I was relying on inflation to keep the value of my EV up, I’m saying that my car brand new is more expensive than when I bought it (whereas ordinarily you’d obviously expect it to go the other way). However, newer EV models are still comparatively much more expensive than my car new, so even though my model is a few years old and there are newer cars with better range, the newer models are much less affordable, and the bang you get for the buck on my model is very good. One thing you are right on, any model pre 2019 (before when range truly did leap for EVs) is now effectively very low value, as the range on those cars was problematic (I.e. long distance travelling was not really feasible with those models), and newer models are vastly superior to them now. But the iterations of the models we have now are less impactful, as the range of models nowadays is already at a good baseline
Toyota hybrid resale value is high. NiMH >>>>> Lithium for longevity.
What is this tech that’s improved so much with every “gen” that makes EVs outdated?
Battery. The SS batteries are out in 2025 and their range is like 600 miles and they reportedly last over 1 million miles. China is releasing the Sodium batteries that are supposed to be dirt cheap and almost completely ethically sourced (uses salt and graphite), it's how BYD reached their sub 10K 400km range car. Tesla announced their 4 million mile battery and just recently announced it passed it's 1 millionth mile in tests (although Elon is.... fuckin Elon). Some chemistries are supposed to allow for 50% charge in 10 mins. Electric cars honestly more closely resemble Iphones. At the start, one iteration is gonna be leaps and bounds ahead of the other, Iphone 2, 3 4 etc till they reach the limit of the tech and kind of plateau, like current gen Iphones. Also a lot of Tesla's flooded the market because initially Elon said self driving gonna happen on the Model 3. however it looks like he was full of shit and that's not happening, so Hertz dumped thousands of them.
Self driving had nothing to do with Hertz dropping their EV fleet. They dropped it because their implementation was garbage and resale values dropped. Car rental places don't keep their cars long and right now owning an EV is only cost effective if you plan to own it for the life of the car.
Didn't they announce they were doing a soft launch of a self driving taxi service?
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Just a guess but its durability is probably more of an indicator of how *well* it works till it gets there. Presumably, the longer the more useful it is over a longer timeframe (less than 1 mil).
Would you buy a new GPU if you knew the next generation is just around the corner and is promised to have 70% better performance? As for mileage, it matters because of potential costs to replace a battery? It's not cheap to do so (at least for now). ICE cars don't measure in miles because the engines don't have a chemical efficiency that naturally decreases over time. If well maintained, an ICE car run for 15 years. An EV battery loses potency over time. So obviously the longer it lasts, the better.
That situation used to be the norm for computers for decades. Not just the GPU. CPU, Ethernet, wifi, motherboard chipsets, RAM, storage - everything got massively better and cheaper every couple of years. But while you could always wait another year and get something better for the money, you couldn't use it while you waited.
In the past 5 years, the incremental improvements between generations of computer tech isn't really that big anymore. So now you could easily just skip 2 or 3 generations and get something that will have a significant benefit over what you currently have. I'm EVs will eventually get there, sooner rather than later. But as it stands, too much of the EV tech is being improved at a rate that makes it unattractive to buy one now.
EVs also don't have a timing belt to go, or a gasket to leak coolant into your engine block, or engines made of steel and aluminum with different coefficients of expansion, or water pumps to fail, or O2 sensors to die, catalytic converters to be stolen etc... they are vastly simpler machines, and a lot of things that are going to economically kill a to 10+ year old car simply do not apply.
Blade batteries, for one.
Depends on the country. In Europe they do well, especially in areas with stricter environmental laws and taxes/levies based on CO2 output of the car.
The hybrids hold waaaaay better than the ICE I just sold. My 2016 Impala V6 traded for 5/28k. A 2016 Camry XLE Hybrid with the same mileage would have traded for 12/26k. The hybrids actually hold value better, which is why I now drive a 24 Camry Hybrid.
No the problem is the potential high cost of replacing the batteries, who in their right mind would risk €15,000 of repairs on a second hand car?
Same. Saw all those Telsas for sale by Hertz and that made me rethink going full electric. Shit, read a story today that a toddler got stuck in a Tesla as the battery had died right after grandma closed the door. wtf, imagine running out of gas and getting locked out of your car as a result.
To be fair that's more of a fault of tesla's shitty engineering, it could happen in a petrol car if it is designed badly too. All of those systems should have a simple, mechanical back-up.
Model 3 and Y do have pretty simple mechanical handles. Not sure what happened in this situation, though.
>Imagine running out of gas and getting locked out of your car as a result. I can't imagine that, because our trusty old gas car has a 12V battery which controls the door locking/unlocking, lights, radio, etc. Oh wait, so does our EV and every other EV on the road! So the 'story' as you've described it is complete BS. Just like a gas car, even if the engine/main battery is dead, the interior of an EV including door locks functions completely fine. Considering it's Tesla I'd be more likely to believe it was their software that fucked up and refused to unlock the doors, but again, that has nothing to do with being an EV.
An electrical fault or software bug locking a toddler inside a car can also happen to a gas vehicle. I’ve had one failing to start but starting the windshield wipers instead and needed to be "reboot" to behave properly.
Do not confuse the 12-V battery and the drive train battery. If the story you read is accurate, then the toddler got trapped in the car because the 12-V battery died. This is 100% the owner's fault. On older Teslas, when the 12-V battery reaches end of life, a warning is pushed to the Tesla app on your phone and displayed on screen in the vehicle. The warning is very clear that the battery needs to be replaced with great urgency and that lots of bad things can happen if the battery is not replaced. The owner of this vehicle probably ignored the warning for several weeks or months and did not replace their battery, and they suffered the consequences. Replacing the battery is extremely easy. When mine went out I was able to make a same day appointment with my local Tesla service center. It took about 30 min and cost $125. Within the last few years Tesla switched the 12-V battery from lead acid to lithium ion, so the batteries no longer need to be replaced in the lifetime of the vehicle. So, even though there was already little reason to be concerned about this, now there is virtually zero reason to be concerned about it.
Yeah, the article said she was supposed to get three warnings. Tesla admitted she got none
Exactly. Like other technology, there’s more and more fancy stuff each year. People would rather just buy it new with a brand new battery than to buy used.
Good. Means I can buy a second one for cheaper.
I'm just waiting for used BMW I3s with the REX to hit the 6k mark and I'm replacing my 2000 Insight.
I'm almost dead set on getting a used M3LR and ditching my IT career to become a taxi driver lol.
Get the car but keep the job
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It’s so weird..the phrasing in your comment was so specific and familiar, I could’ve sworn I read it elsewhere or was experiencing déjà vu.. The wording is almost [identical to this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/e9rTjg8EgI) by u/totesnotdog on another post 19 hours ago..
Yeah that's too alike to be a coincidence. More and more comments online are not made by humans.
Dead internet theory is true
Crazy, I am certainly not a bit, but I've said nearly the same thing. But I didn't use brand names. I am 100% with the og comment though. I want to get to and from work, so keep me safe doing that. 2 seater is just fine, as long as it has a fair size trunk. Having a sweet sound system and adaptive cruise would be amazing. Keep it low 20's - absolutely perfect. I feel like there is an absolute market for fleet commuting cars.
Citroen have a released a basic 25k ev and a bunch of reviews are “I wish it had this luxury, I wish it had that luxury”. It is irritating that they aren’t even contextualising, just whinging.
It’s called the Chevy Bolt :)
And a Hyundai Kona, and a Kia Nero…
Isn't this basically the Renault Zoe? (Not the best range in the market but newer ones are decent)
Base model 3 can be bought new for about $30k
Man the oil industry is going a great PR job of tanking consumer confidence in EVs.
I recently got an EV and it's quite life changing, previously I had a hybrid which I liked more than my turbo and NA engines, but the EV is perfect for me. I just did a 200 mile trip and had 80 left with the ac blasting and mostly motorway miles. That said, we have an ICE car for the second car in the house and without a driveway and the means to charge cheaply at home or for free at work, an EV makes absolutely no sense. For the week before I had the charger I was paying 80p per kw which is basically 20p per mile. When it comes to a long road trip I will have to use the rapid chargers to top up but a couple of times a year is perfectly acceptable for me, when I'm paying 1-2p per mile with home charging. The bit that gets me is how much people are offended by EV cars, it's like they personally insult them. I can only imagine it was like when Ford started mass producing cars and people still believed horses were better than an engine. "Ha, you have to put fuel in that, good luck finding a place to buy that; my horse eats what I don't want, sucker"
Wow, [iSeeCars.com](http://iSeeCars.com) seem to do a lot of advertising with business insider....
Plug-in hybrids are the logical next step while the electric grid is being expanded. It would be like a Prius that would get 125 mpg. Then all electric can take off once the grid is built - or solar/electric cars like Aptera could remove the demand completely from the grid.
Good. The lack of a cheap second hand market is stifling EV uptake.
Huh. Good point.
The second hand market for EVs aren’t good due to availability. There are dealerships who have so many secondhand EVs they had to stop taking them as trade-ins. Its issue is the degraded battery. An EVs battery is incredibly expensive to replace and does not like extreme climates (hot or cold). Very few people want to buy a used EV with a battery that’s at 70% capacity.
We have one Lexus hybrid SUV and one Tesla SUV. For daily chores I use the Tesla. It is charged at home at midnight. 2.5 years of ownership, 2% battery degradation and other than tire rotation no maintenance. I hardly use the brakes because the regeneration shows the car when the fit is removed from the accelerator. For an interstate trip with family we only use the Lexus which is far more comfortable. The Tesla has low profile tires, hard suspension and more road noise in the cabin. It heats up in the summer due to its full glass roof. It is very poorly designed car. My ideal EV would be a Lexus EV. I would not recommend an EV because the first generation models are need better technology, denser batteries, faster charging during interstate trips and away from home. With each year summer setting new records clearly we need to reduce green house gases including C02. More solar panels, more EVs will help future generations. As a baby boomer I worry for my grandkids. In 50 years what will the weather be like. Many parts of the world will be unlivable leading to mass migration and civil strife. The shallow seas around UAE will act as a night “sun”. Many crops will not grow in the tropical zone. Climate change is real. We can ask do it not to reduce our carbon print.
Toyota was right for delaying producing EV of their own and stick with tried and true hybrid that was best of both world.
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>Please don't ask me for a "source" like some dummies do, as all of this info is readily available. Please do.
Aka " Do your own research!" Also the earth is flat. Don't ask me for a source, dummies!
They are building a large battery plant right now so I think they kinda caved
You still need batteries for hybrids. They are slowly changing to hybrids only. Look at the camry. No regular ice all models in the US are hybrid.
Not finding anything about this. Source?
Hybrid is the worst of both worlds actually. It's still a fossil fuel burning cars and uses more different components, eradicating one of the advantages of EVs. But it's a useful bridge technology for a while and provides buyers with peace of mind in the interim period.
You're right. Hybrid is more of a stopgap technology to tie through until EV technology and infrastructure mature but at the moment is going through hiccups.
I dont know, the Yaris is considered one of the cheapest cars in the world to maintain because its so reliable despite having to deal with the potential breaking of both electric and gasoline components. One of the main selling points of a hybrid is not that people want an electric car, its that gasoline costs are low. A hybrid, like for example the Yaris, will swap between electric and gasoline whenever it needs to without the driver needing to manually charge the car so you dont even notice its there outside of gas costs.
Models and manufacturers have their own variance in reliability. But fundamentally EVe are just much simpler to convert energy into movement. It's basically a battery, a motor and some cabling. To be fair the battery gets a bit of extra complication with thermal management to optimize safety and lifespan. And the EV motor doesn't even need to have parts prone to friction to work. Doesn't even need oil. Thanks to recuperation EVs hardly need to use brakes - the motor just switches to be a generator and turns kinetic energy back to electricity. An ICE car has a lot more components that have moving parts, get very hot and need maintenance and will get used up within a few years. It's fundamentally more prone to have parts getting used up. Brake pads, spark plugs, mufflers, etc...
To be fair, hybrids have regenrative breaking as well. And accelerating with addition of the electric motors. So less strain on the engine and breaks during high load. Which makes them more reliable than normal ICE cars. But fully electric will still be better obviously.
It's a compromise concept. And thus it has the advantages and disadvantages of a compromise. IMHO their main selling point is getting people over range anxiety while the infrastructure is still being built up and people need to adapt their habits.
PHEV or EREVs make more responsible use of limited battery resources.
Nope, they don't. The discussion about lithium deposits is silly. The number of known reserves of a few years ago is already out of date and more will be found now that it's worthwhile to look harder for them. In the 70s the world had a few decades of known oil reserves left - yet more were found since then and we would actually have less problems if it did run out. Also batteries can use a variety of chemistry's and various alternatives are in research or already on their way to availability. And it can get recycled. Unlike fossil fuels - which gets used up and ends up in the atmosphere. Hybrids are entirely irresponsible (in the long run) because they still use fossils to operate in a hybrid mode. As soon as you don't use fossils in a hybrid anymore you have a silly EV with unused parts than can fail and need maintenance. As long as it uses fossils (even at a reduced rate) it's part of a larger problem were trying to fix. It's ok-ish as a bridge tech. But not a long term option.
You are shortsighted and letting what you consider perfect to be the enemy of good. PHEV fill the niche that many drivers want: Good fuel economy on short daily trips due to mostly using home changed electricity. Highly efficient when using gasoline. Ability to refuel in minutes at anytime removing all range anxiety. It’s a winning solution for the current market. Which is why PHEV are increasing faster than pure EV sales. https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2024/05/15/global_ev_sales_continue_to/
It's not the best of both worlds though. You get a minimal MPG increase that you could achieve by just getting a smaller vehicle, but now you also have to maintain an electric drivetrain in addition to a gas one. Statistically they have more issues than either an ICE or EV.
>best of both world Are you smoking exhaust fumes? Hybrids: * have exhaust emissions * are more complex (two drive systems) and hence: * • are more prone to failure * • are more difficult to service All the downsides of internal combustion (more servicing, exhaust emissions) with the facade of being electric. ---- edit: since people are replying "they're more reliable" without providing any numbers, here are numbers. >Consumer reports finds that hybrids have about 25% less issues than pure ICE cars. That's because [Toyota in general has less issues than other makes.](https://i.imgur.com/YRtShGZ.jpeg) Same for Kia, Ford, Honda, and Nissan, which sell the bulk of the hybrids. You might as well say Toyota, Honda, Kia, Ford, and Nissan ICE vehicles have 25% less issues than the average ICE vehicle. But if you compare apples to apples, for example Toyota hybrids to Toyota ICEs and BEV, you get [this](https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/15/5/183): |Vehicle|Toyota BZ3|Toyota Aqua|Toyota Prius|Toyota Axio|Toyota Allion| |-|-|-|-|-|-|-| |Maintenance costs|$3267|$6192|$6610|$4080|$4080| So, comparing apples to apples (or Toyotas to Toyotas) the maintenance costs of the hybrids are 50% higher than ICE and about double than BEV, which would be expected. This is [Simpson's Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox). If you compare the average of all hybrids, they're better than the average of all ICE. But if you compare Toyota hybrids to Toyota ICE, they're more expensive to maintain, and so on for each make.
Toyota hybrids are not prone to failure. They are actually more reliable. The transmission is much simpler (in a toyota hybrid) than a regular ice. They don't have the belts,starter, or alternator. They have the same regen braking that allows brake pads to last longer.
>They are actually more reliable Compared to...?
Toyota’s highly reliable hybrid system provides otherwise with vehicles over 20 years old still on the road and pushing 300,000 miles.
>highly reliable ...compared to?
Everyone. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/ Pure Hybrids have 26% less problems than gas cars. Electric cars have 79% MORE problems than gas cars. Toyota and Lexus (Toyota’s luxury brand) lead the industry. >”Lexus, Toyota, and Mini are the three most reliable brands in this year’s annual auto reliability brand rankings, with the two Japanese brands swapping spaces from last year. “ >”Overall, hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE). Some standouts include the Lexus UX and NX Hybrid and the Toyota Camry Hybrid, Highlander Hybrid, and RAV4 Hybrid.” Hybrid is the best option for a combination of reliability, range and efficiency.
>Electric cars have 79% MORE problems than gas cars. You are severely misreading that report. [This study](https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/15/5/183) and [this study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030626191731526X?via%3Dihub) show that PHEV maintenance is 50% higher than pure electric, when comparing electric, hybrid, and ICE across the same brand or across similarly-specced cars. Even [this Consumer Report report](https://imgur.com/YRtShGZ) shows that pure electric (Tesla) has lower maintenance than any other tested marque, though they don't break down according to BEV/PHEV/ICE.
I’m not. The graphic is right there in the report clearly showing what I stated comparing electric powertrains to gasoline ones.
>“It might not seem that long ago, but Toyota launched the Prius hybrid about 25 years ago,” Elek says. “Automakers have been making hybrids long enough that they’ve gotten really good at it. Plus, many hybrids are also made by manufacturers that tend to produce reliable vehicles overall, such as Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia.” 1. It's comparing different makes, instead of comparing similar models from the same maker. 2. It's a self-reported survey, not a proper measure of service and maintenance, but user-reported "problems" such as "broken interior trim" This is not an estimate of reliability. It's user-reported "problems" that might be a misaligned door or a dim brake light and so on. Because Toyota, Hundai, Kia, and Ford dominate the hybrid market, hybrids have less "problems" such as bad trim because those are reliable auto-makers. This has nothing to do with actual service and maintenance of the drive system.
Worst of both worlds more like
How so? It generally cuts emissions by half but requires significantly less (Toyota's 1:6:90 rule, unless you've got better numbers) battery than a full EV (and therefore is much more affordable to the ordinary person) and doesn't need to sacrifice battery life to fast fill/charge.
Enough battery for daily errands around town. Flexibility to use gas on a road trip. Main reason I won't get an EV as my primary vehicle: you're SOL if there is an extended power outage. Also Tesla having a bunch of powered stuff is dangerous if post is suddenly lost.
During "an extended power outage," is the local gas station still operating?
It sounds like in some areas they are required to have gas generators. I have to look up my area.
And how long will there be petrol available after drivers panic buy? Think toilet paper, there will be some numbskull profiteer filling up to resell as soon there's an opportunity. This happens already in many countries where fuel is scarce.
So you are more worried about the car in a power outage than anything else not working without power? And you could use the car to power your home that could also be helpful. But if we add solar here then… Can you produce oil at home?
I do keep a stash of gas (i do cycle it so it doesn't go bad) in case of emergencies and a generator. I live in an area where hurricanes hit, though not frequently, so if the power goes out for a few days or a week or more, i can get by with gas. If I had solar, maybe EV could be viable.
You can use this generator to fill your car also. You have all the options in your hand. The car can help you for a few days feeding your home. Then the generator could help. The generator could work in the most efficient range to charge your car and your car could adapt perfectly to any condition like just one bulb running. The generator can’t do that.
Gas will run out pretty fast, if there is an extended power outage. And an EV can be used as a huge Powerbank that can power the household for a week. Adaptors needed, though.
A week? Where did those numbers come from?
A typical household uses between 7 and 10 kwH per day, many EVs today have 70kwH+ batteries.
Interesting. It does take your vehicle out of the equation for transportation, but can help keep your fridge running for a while which is helpful.
Bigger evs have around 60kwh batteries. Depending on the country an average household can consume so much that this will last only a day or so little that it can last for even multiple weeks. I guess on average across all countries one week seems reasonable.
I have a 10 kWh battery at home and from fully charged that lasts until around 10 am the next day. This makes us fully off grid if it's not cloudy. Combined with a 50 kWh car battery you could easily run your fridge and lights for a week or so.
60kWh of Tesla 3. My annual electricity consumption per day is ~4 kWh. Make it 5 kWh per day, and it is still a week.
>I won't get an EV as my primary vehicle: you're SOL if there is an extended power outage I live in a part of Australia that regularly gets massive storms, but also impacts from cyclones, bushfires and major floods. Every 2-3 years we have a major weather event where power is out for days at a time. This is actually one of the big reasons I specifically got an EV, and I have an adapter I can plug into the charge port that turns my car into a generator on wheels. I can run any appliance that uses a standard household outlet like our fridge, freezer, water pump, septic system, lights, computers, etc. I can also plug in a portable cooktop, air fryer, kettle, etc to cook and boil water as well as power my router to keep the internet running because the mobile network only lasts about 6-12 hours in a full blackout. If it's cold I can run a heater, if it's hot I can sleep in the car with the AC on. A city near me recently had a power outage that lasted for weeks in some suburbs after a huge storm, and a lady was even able to [run a dialysis machine using her car](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/01/amazing-queensland-mum-uses-electric-car-to-save-sons-life-with-dialysis-during-power-outage). Believe me when I say it works really, really well. If it's not a widespread power outage and the roads are clear I can just drive to a charger in a suburb that has power and fill up again, if it's a huge outage or I'm trapped at home I can switch over to our old portable generator and run appliances or even charge the car slowly. Most outages are resolved within 48 hours so the generator doesn't get much use these days, but it's still useful to have. I can also say from experience that simply plugging an adapter into the car and pulling a cable to the house is so much quicker than dragging out the generator, setting it up in a ventilated area, checking oil, fuel and finally getting it running, especially when it's often dark, windy and pouring rain. EV's aren't perfect by any means, but for power outages they're pretty damn good (assuming you don't get a Tesla, because they don't have that function).
True true.
Jumping straight to EV in masse before infrastructure was in place was mightily stupid. Chevy Volt was perfect in its idea. Small enough battery for most city driving and a generator for everything else and everything powers an electric motor. This could have scaled to sedans, with pickup trucks probably benefiting more than anyone.
Guess the problem is people are scared of the longevity of the EVs. Either for the battery life or for “software” issues. I have to say I do include myself in such group. As someone with very little knowledge about them in general, I’m a little skeptical on such.
It's funny how other ev cars didn't follow Tesla's proven strategy. Build chargers than the cars.
It was a good strategy when Tesla was the lead player. If you boost the whole market sales, and you are 90% of the market, it is the same. Tesla had made it's charger an industry standard and sells them to the other companies, but also gets steady income.
Tesla's future is as a EV charging station and infrastructure company that also sells cars instead of the other way around.
Too bad they just fired their whole charging tech staff. And then rehired some of them. Because Musk is turning out to be a terrible child who happens to be a billionaire CEO.
EV charging market is still severely underserved and there is lots of room for growth. Even if Tesla made huge in-roads there is no problem with being a competitor. Another problem I had with EV charger is how they decided not to go with a standard.
You are right that a lack of charging standard is a problem. But lack of standards is somewhat normal for new and quickly developing tech. But the EU standardized years ago and the US recently got an industry standard by Ford etc... switching to Teslas tech. That problem is currently getting solved.
The issue with EVS for me is the ability to charge at home, which is really only available if you have a driveway/garage. Many houses have street parking or little carparks not necessarily next to the property. Once they solve a way of being able to cheaply and quickly install charging points at these areas, without them just being in the way, I imagine more people would go electric. I'm not sure how they would tackle that issue though.
Roads that charge cars wirelessly?
Unlikely to be cheap and quick, plus with the state of the roads, I don't really have confidence in the upkeep of such a large system. Most likely would probably be battery tech that makes it small enough to be removable, then you could either take it indoors to charge (potential safety issues) or just got to a location (probably petrol station/supermarket) to swap a battery for a fully charged one, paying the difference in charge. This would also stop vehicle price degradation due to battery lifespan. We just are not there yet technology wise.
The EV market has a lot of issues, without even mentioning any charging network issues here are some of the reasons this is happening; No one wants to buy a used EV with an old battery. People already have range anxiety with EVs imagine buying one that’s at 70% capacity. They are very expensive to insure. They can be very expensive to fix. A new battery can easily cost over $5,000. They depreciate very fast. Car batteries do not like extreme climates, causing faster capacity degradation in places with snow or high heat. Dealerships are turning EVs trade-ins away. They get so many and they don’t want so much sitting on the lot that they won’t be able to sell the new ones they have on hand.
Whoever starts making after-market battery packs will change everything. Once there is enough used evs I can see it being profitable
If they had a rentable replaceable battery per EV it might make economic sense to buy one second hand.. Until then. Nope.
EVs are still making improvement jumps like it's going from a GTX 1080 to and RTX 4080 every year. It makes sense for most people to wait until the tech is more mature and standardized. That can also be said about charging infrastructure. It's a key reason I didn't get an EV.
For now hybrids seem to be better for the environment than EVs, right? I am curious how is the longevity.
Hybrids are just a safer bet for many people who can't afford the risk of losing all the money they spent on an EV if the battery fails, for instance.
You also loose all your car money if the ICE motor suddenly fails. But both are rare occurrences. Batteries don't just fail all the time. They're also not in low capacity after a few years. These are worries that people have because the tech is new and every single failure goes into a headline. While ICE car is totaled due to motor crapping out is a boring statistic. Something people are used to (used to the fact that while it can happen it's sufficiently unlikely to happen to them soon).
Nah, it depends on the value of the vehicle, repairing or replacing an engine is indeed expensive but definitely worth it if the vehicle has significant value. If the batteries fail in a newish EV a replacement might be too expensive for someone who put most of their money in a vehicle because they have to get to work somehow. It's a big financial risk for people in that situation. But it's good news that fairly new used EVs are getting cheaper, that means the risk will be lower for those who need an entry level electric vehicle.
It will be the same for EVs. Either the failure totals the car, or the replacement will be worth it. Both are expensive and can total the car. But in either case it can be worthwhile - depending on particular circumstances. Either way it's a sufficiently rare occurrence to not be a major worry. It's just that with ICE cars people are used to this and nobody writes an article about the millionths ICE motor failure. While batteries are new and failures often make the headlines.
It's odd. I read that sales of EVs are ramping up and China is being cock blocked to allow the big auto markets to sell their cars without the threat of cheap China cars. Eventually, there won't be a reason to consider gas unless you own a classic.
For the retro refit crowd crashing used prices means second hand donor parts getting cheaper. This is just good news for the health of the entire industry, cars are way overvalued as a component of a debt bubble