***The Telegraph reports:***
A woman in Germany has been given a harsher sentence than a convicted rapist after she was found guilty of defaming him.
Maja R, a 20-year-old from Hamburg, called him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”, defamatory under German law.
He was one of nine attackers who gang-raped a 15-year-old girl in a Hamburg park in 2020, in a case that shocked the city.
Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail for her verbal attacks. The rapist was given a suspended sentence and served no prison time due to his age.
The sentence has sparked anger over what critics see as the flaws in Germany’s judicial system, with disproportionate punishment for defamation.
Maja R expressed her disgust in a direct message to one of the gang-rapists via WhatsApp, after his name and number were leaked on Snapchat. She told the court she sent her message to him “without thinking twice”.
“Aren’t you ashamed when you look in the mirror?” she asked, calling him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”.
She also told the criminal that he “couldn’t go anywhere without getting kicked in the face” and said, “let’s hope you are just locked away”.
The man was one of nine men and boys convicted of raping a heavily drunk 15-year-old in the bushes of a Hamburg park over a number of hours in Sept 2020.
Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?”
The rest of the attackers, including the one defamed by Maja R, were given suspended sentences, due to being under 18 at the time. Anne Meier-Goering, the presiding judge, lamented during the trial that “none of the defendants said a word of regret”.
Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case.
She apologised to the young man she had contacted, telling the court “it didn’t help anyone”. She added that she wanted to go back to school and study to become a paediatric nurse.
The case has laid bare Germany’s harsh defamation laws, which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like “idiot”. Breaking the law can lead to punishment of up to two years in prison.
The district court said it had received strong reactions over the rulings in both the defamation case and the rape trial which prompted it.
Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg.
A court spokesman told the Hamburger Abendblatt local newspaper last week: “We are observing the hostility in connection with the proceedings and the verdict with great concern.”
He said the anger over the case had “reached a new, worrying level of intensity” and described the criticism as “a targeted attack on the rule of law”.
**Full story:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/28/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-calling/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/28/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-calling/)
> Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg.
They are doing what now...
If they would put an end to such obvious bullshit can you really blame people for being on board? If your under 18 why do you have a free crime pass in Germany?
And that rehabilitation attitude is one reason why people stop voting for left-wing governments. What do you think would happen in the upcoming US election if the Biden administration announced that rapists would no longer do jail time so they could be rehabilitated?
Frankly, such serious crimes demand punishment. There's no justice when the victim's life is ruined but the perpetrator gets to just go on and live a great life.
The US would have to start putting rapist in jail first for that decision to be made.
[Only 6% of rapist see jail time due to lack of reporting.](https://cmsac.org/facts-and-statistics/#:~:text=Factoring%20in%20unreported%20rapes%2C%20only,a%2058%25%20chance%20of%20conviction.) If reported, only around 50% will be arrested, and there are 25,000 untested rape kits (from the 30 states that reported, the real number is much higher than that) just sitting in storage from the few people who do report it.
I firmly believe that rapists and paedophiles CANNOT be rehabilitated. They know what they're doing is wrong, and yet they show zero remorse for their actions. Some (many) even go as far as taunting their victims.
The judge's rule simply reinforces the belief that they can commit such atrocious crimes and get away with it. Unfortunately until humongous sentences start being issued I fear nothing will change
Germany won't have US style free speech laws because their system is built partly to fight nazi influence. It's why they're so aggressive against anti-Israel protesters.
It can still be almost the same as here in the US with the exception of it's illegal to be a Nazi or call for a genocide.
It's not that different from the incitement to violence laws we have here.
Far right wing would castrate the rapists no matter who they are
Here it’s about the special status the rapist hold as an underaged boy and new immigrant from a disenfranchised socioeconomic background
So far left wing
He means that because the existing left wing government is giving special treatment to the rapist that people will likely want to replace the left wing government with a right wing one.
>Far right wing would castrate the rapists no matter who they are
LOL
That might be the dumbest thing I have read this year, and people have been talking about last night's presidential debate for the past 16 hours.
Not necessarily, far right people tend to make exceptions for their buddies, discredit rape when done by their friends.
Let’s not go to extremes, the far right has never been above corruption, even when going against their supposed values.
Far-Delusional comment.
The far right in Europe are literally using rape as a weapon of war right now.
The right wing has never been anti-rape. At most, they have been anti-other-races-doing-the-raping.
how is defamation if he is a rapist? that seems like calling a spade a spade
it's honestly disgusting, and only going to push people to the right-wing
I left politically and dont understand WTF a lot of leaders are doing, they are alienating everyone
Its real in Germany now
> Rape culture refers to a cultural environment that creates a context where rape is normalized, trivialized, accepted, and even encouraged
If this is the rule of law in Germany, there absolutely *should* be a “targeted attack on the rule of law”. Gang rapists suffering virtually no consequences just because they’re under 18 is absurd. They know goddamn well that that behavior is reprehensible, and they showed absolutely no remorse.
It's actually asinine to think that a sexually mature male cannot understand the consequences of committing sexual assault and therefore should be excused of it. If the age of consent is lower than 18 (and it is), then the age of receiving full punishment for sexual assault should be lowered along with it. The law already considers you an 'adult' with its age of consent laws, it should not suddenly treat you as a "child" if you commit sexual crimes.
But of course, it's just another symptom of ivory tower bureaucracy, where some privileged, rich man who has no contact with any form of "real life" decides how the world works at his desk and pats himself on the back for phrasing his musings with fancy words as if that's a sign of any sophistication.
>Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?”
Stop it Germany, this is why the right-wing is gaining support in Europe.
This is why right-wingers are gaining support around the world.
Once the left decided free speech was actually a bad thing, they lost many of their most ardent supporters.
I wouldn't even call it defamation because the guy did the crime, and was found guilty.
From the German law
>Whosoever asserts or disseminates a fact related to another person which may defame him or negatively affect public opinion about him, shall, unless this fact can be **proven to be true**, be liable to imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine and, if the offence was committed publicly
Yeah, sounds like they got it wrong by their own rules.
In UK law, you have several defenses:
* it is true
* it is vulgar abuse
* it is opinion, rather than matter of fact (e.g. "[fact I can prove] makes them a _terrible person_").
Also, big difference is that defamation isn't criminal, it is a civil offense — so the defendant would have to sue in a totally separate court case.
Yeah private messages aren't subject to libel at all in the UK. Well. It depends on the size of the group chat I suppose, but speaking one on one isn't.
>I wouldn't even call it defamation because the guy did the crime, and was found guilty.
I have no clue why they used the word defamation - it's not that, it's insulting someone.
Its Kind of a mistranslation, basically insulting someone is already a crime and she got sentenced for that. If she Had Just called him a rapist, it probably wouldnt have amounted to anything but the insults and her not appearing before court heavily influenced the sentence.
Not exactly the case. I don't agree with her being punished at all. I support her actions.
However, she was apparently caught stealing and then didn't attend the hearing. So I guess this is more of a punishment for that than the actual text message.
I know. Rape should be punished MUCH harder.
But again, not the point. She was in jail for a weekend because she skipped the court date and was again found guilty of something.
You can't let someone go unpunished because someone else did something worse.
Someone who murders a murderer is still a murderer. They should get punished the same or our legal system won't matter.
That said, I again want to make clear that the punishment for the rapists was basically non existent and that feels like a crime in itself.
Two wrongs still don't make a right. I know it's old and cringy, but that's pretty much spot on.
We have just gone a serious fucked uped way since the mid 2010's.
Its so much wrong here on a small and on a larger scale we will never be able to correct.
Sounds like victim blaming. I’d commit violence, and rightfully so. Against the rapist to be clear. He definitely hasn’t gotten what he deserves. Talk about backwards and morally bankrupt. Not you, the powers that be over there are. Not being committed to justice for the real victim. For clarification
How is it defamation if she said it to the person? Even ignoring all of the other bullshit related to this law, she didn’t hurt his image publicly in any way
Meanwhile Saudi Arabia will cut your head if you say a blasphemy. Perhaps we should switch it up and behead rapists regardless of their age but let people call themselves names if they want to.
>Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case.
Wait a moment. Isn't this important to the story?
Like, I get that Germany has some laws regarding what can be said given WW2 history and the efforts afterwards like for holocaust supporters/deniers, but what the fuck, Germany? Your slur laws means you can say idiot or pig to someone?
There appears to be some similarities with how the law is in Sweden.
I appolgize for only being a layman but to my understanding it goes like this:
You may not publicly spread defaming words about another person, unless that information is of some use or benefit to the public.
This means that you can’t go around spreading rumors about people, even if those rumors are true, without risking a fine or other sanction. Even if the rapist is convicted you may not be able to spread it. Something about weighing the the benefit to the public by knowing this vs protecting private lifes.
Maybe the rapist made a mistake and won’t do it again? Or maybe it was some sort of sexual harassment? Or maybe this is a person with a history of harassment or rape and thus worthy of warning everyone else about?
Something like that. Is it good or bad? How about both, depending on the situation. But I hope this shines a light on the ways in some countries where you can ”defame” someone by telling the truth
Thank you for the explanation. In theory I’m for rehabilitation, but from what I understand they are unrepentant. I do feel like this is a Brock Turner situation, where we should name and shame.
Rape is already underreported in both men and women, shaming those who haven’t served an appropriate prison sentence because if the justice system refuses to actually dole out justice and protect the people you get shit like this. Prison is to protect the general populace and the perpetrators. Separate them because if you don’t there will be rumours and then violence.
Defamation in civil law doesn't have to be false.
In common law (like the US and most of Canada), truth can be a full defense (exceptions apply, check with a lawyer).
To be right 100% of the time is to be perfect, always assume you and your party are wrong on some issues cause it's not like your opposition got to where they are by being wrong all the time.
This does not make any sense.
That guy is a pig after the unforgivable act that he committed.
That misogynistic judge who sentenced her to jail should be ashamed of himself.
Germany has developed a new kind two class society.
The two classes are: 1. the people you love to view and show as the bad guys
2. the people who must never be viewed or shown as the bad guys.
Guess who is who, lol.
German drunks sing a dumb song on Sylt?
Names, addresses, employers! All possible info was out there in a few hours.
A group of „young men“ beat some kid to death?
„Well, it is best to delay any comments until further investigation allows for them.“
At this point the perpetrator/-s are often already known or at least there is a very strong lead to who it most likely was.
Plus: our politicians only ever shed light on crimes committed by Germans against minorities.
And if the opposite is the case and they comment on it, you can clearly tell that someone wrote that crap 5 liner for them to post on X and be in the clear.
And somehow, for no reason at all, National Socialism took over. First gradually then all at once.
Europe seems predestined to repeat its mistakes.
It’s truly fascinating to me how the European progressive elite can’t comprehend what they are doing. Maybe it’s on purpose and they want global war. That would actually make more logical sense.
Plus: the general public seem to be blind to the truth, even when present with statistics from the government itself.
Tendency: a certain demographic of people is a lot lote criminal than other - again, guess who - but most people, when asked, drastically underestimate the truth and the deny it when corrected by some counterpart in the conversation or interview.
If there is any reaction at all. Faesers lack of a reaction to several attacks was very telling, whole she was instantly on the Case regarding the Sylt Story.
This is just more proof of a broken justice system that favours criminals over victims and the rest of the general population.
Where I come from in Canada the justice system is a complete joke where criminals only get a slap on the wrist.
Y’all really need to start reading the article before you start making baseless accusations of a judge being misogynistic. She was given jail time because she had a previous conviction for theft never showed up to court.
Edit: also, the judge was a woman who lamented that none of the attackers showed any remorse.
Also small note. When I googled this to figure out it was legit, I was confused because I was reading another report from 2016 for the [EXACT SAME THING WITH THE EXACT SAME RESULT IN THE EXACT SAME CITY](https://www.dw.com/en/hamburg-teenagers-walk-free-after-gang-rape-conviction/a-36142782). These judges need to be charged themselves for dereliction of duty
Why are you talking about charging the judges? They acted in accordance with the law.
The law needs a serious overhaul. That's the problem. Not the judges.
I’m not German so tried to look up the law but sentencing is up to the judge with limits due to age and 17 year olds can be sent to youth detention for [up to 5 years (page 7)](https://rsf.uni-greifswald.de/storages/uni-greifswald/fakultaet/rsf/lehrstuehle/ls-duenkel/Veroeffentlichungen/Duenkel_-_Youth_Justice_in_Germany_-_Oxford_Handbooks_Online.pdf). So since all were reported as at least 17 at the time, 4 got probation, 4 got deferred judgement on if they will be sent to detainment (we’ll see) and 1 guy got 2 years likely because he was reportedly an asshole in court. Still seems extremely lenient for something so serious
Everything about this case is outrageous, but she was not jailed for that. She was jailed for having a theft conviction for which she never appeared in court. When she appeared in court for this, they sentenced her for the theft.
Ah thanks for pointing that out. I agree with the judge penalizing her for skipping court (assuming she wasn’t a minor at the time of that theft) but still pretty ridiculous that a minor coordinating and willingly participating in a gang rape draws less effective legal repercussions than an adult missing court for a (likely) misdemeanor
Disgusting.
Completely unacceptable for the victim and society as a whole.
If you want to understand why the far-right are “marching” - look no further.
It’s not some underground of secret Nazi’s coming to the surface… It’s people you know, seeing things like this and getting sick of it. Voting for the only parties that say they’ll deal with it.
If you want to stop the far-right, demand moderate parties address absurdities like this directly and honestly.
Yep. Mass migration of people who refuse to assimilate to German cultural norms is creating issues and the left in Germany is too stupid to realize that they are providing the right with the perfect propaganda weapons. These gang rapists should have never been in the country in the first place, like most of these refugees, due to a lack of common values and the reality they should be fighting for their own countries instead of trying to hitch a free ride off the benefits of others who sacrificed for their own countries. Selfish people looking for free shit elsewhere and then commit crimes when people don't want to consent to their selfish anti assimilationist behavior.
True justice would be every single gang rapist given the death penalty for their crime but Europe is soft unfortunately.
i have a few reasons where i am against the death penalty to rape, but the primary one is that if a rapist knows he would be killed for raping someone, why wouldnt they just kill the victim every time?
Maybe make it so horrific that the fear of punishment is enough.
Countries like Singapore used to have much worse problems with drug trafficking until they started executing people for it and publically beating the users and forcing brutal rehab. Drug crime went down.
I would not hold Singapore up as a success story here. Nowadays, the people they catch include the mentally disabled, and drug mules. There was a big uproar last year when Singapore executed a man whose IQ was deemed too low to understand the implications of his actions. That was not justice.
They don't catch the people who are actually responsible for the drug trafficking, the kingpins.
u/Rattnick
·
2 days ago
In germany we have freedom of expression not freedom of speech. If you dont like it we dont care
This you? Now do you see why freedom of speech is important?
Because the many social systems here are a massive joke that always favour the egotistical and psychopathic perpetrators.
In the Netherlands you'd be lucky to even see a judge within a few years of when it happened.
Child protection service is actively working against the interests of the children by forcing them to go back to a deranged, alcoholic and proven criminal father.
Police are a joke and will per definition only act after something major and irreversible has happened. Unless you happen to be speeding or park your car in the wrong spot ofcourse.
And the amount of prove required to convict is seriously insane. Store where my ex was on shift at the time was robbed. Perpetrators were armed and threatened her. They made away with tons of cash, goods and a stolen car.
This has occured at multiple locations and after getting caught it took 3 years to trail, during which he lived as a "free" man.
Multiple camera shots with his full face, eye witnesses and DNA on the weapon together with being caught in that stolen car. He walked free without punishment.
wokeness. if the criminal isn't white, they're automatically a victim themself by default, and if they're not, they're some other sort of victim of circumstance and therefor should be sympathized with and not punished.
just another symptom of late stage societal collapse.
The laws that apply are older than the term wokeness. Non-whites go to jail all the time.
This wasn't about the rapists being from a minority it was because they were minors.
The laws need changing but your statement is just plain wrong.
Awww, poor rapists! We couldn't POSSIBLY go hurting their fee-fees.
Absolutely disgusting. The judges involved in both cases should be ashamed of themselves.
Is this because it's an insult to pigs to be compared to rapists? If not I don't get it. The rapists deserve to be called shit worse than "pig". The fact that none of them showed remorse is horrible.
Somewhat inflammatory headline: the rapist was given a suspended sentence because he was a minor.
Still, it is bizarre, in my American view, to send anyone to jail for internet flaming, especially if the person being flamed is a literal rapist.
Its a joke he wasnt imprisoned. A minor who commits *gang rape* is a threat to society, especially to other minors. The parents need investigating as well for raising such a piece of human excrement.
This is the weirdest thing about it. Why tf would you arrest and imprison someone for calling a literal rapist a pig? Germany, get your shit together pls, this is ridiculous.
These rapists are from a protected minority......that's why calling them names is worse than rape. For those who are not aware, the perpetrators are members of a certain middle Eastern religion.
It's so bizarre some people jump straight from "it is possible these people might to discriminated against" to "all complaints against these people are because of discrimination"
Imagine wasting that man power for people insulting human trash. Everyone would be happy if they wouldn’t exist anymore so what’s the deal regarding some text messages 🤷♂️
Idiots. All of them. When this happens, societies crumble. Circle your wagons folks, because we let the proverbial barbarians in, in a proverbial trojan horse that looked like extreme "compassion" and woke reactive policy making, and its going to end in bloodshed.
Light sentences for a group of nine "young men" that gang-raped a teenager? Interesting.
Anyway, how are those opinion polls for the next German elections looking?
From the article:
Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail **because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case.**
I hope events like this are documented in future history classes to explain how/why countries turn to autocracies and right-wing governments. Not understanding how this is a part of a larger cause-effect relationship of growing populist disdain for western institutions on behalf of the citizenry seems to be a huge neo-liberal blind spot and is likely to continue snowballing until someone is willing to be “mean” and correct the course.
This is why the german right is rising again. Left wing politicians not only not dealing with this shit, but refusing to acknowledge its existence at all. It will only result in right wing lunatics being elected across all of Europe.
Most of us learn that rape is a sin a crime and worthy of damnation really early on in life. If a teenage boy does these things it’s because that’s who that man is. A rapist pig.
My fucking goodness, how disgusting. The over compensation Germany is doing is just self-flagellation.
You don't look righteous and virtuous. You look like fucking morons.
Okay look. German law people embody the bureaucratic cliché. They won't compare crimes in an "eye for an eye" fashion.
It's absolutely scandalous that none of the rapists did any time. What the fuck.
On an unrelated note, that someone got a weekend in jail for defamation and not even showing up to the court hearing is kinda realistic, actually.
And this is what is wrong with the world.
Those people need to be punished AND PUBLICLY SHAMED!
Tar and feather those disgusting pigs.
Take out ads across the country and dox them in the most public way possible. AND do so in their countries of origin.
They something far worse.
Most of the times the victim loses years from his/hers life trying to even get back to a normal state of mind.
I would go with physical castration and a sentence of life (or the durability of the victim to restore life) of physical hard work. Something along the lines of move this boulder there and back again.
Hahahahhahaha it’s hilarious the rule of law is being used to protect criminal scum. Can the Germans not be so fucking autistic for 2 seconds Jesus fucking Christ
Germany is the most dumb country. Like man. Your food sucks. You guys did the holocaust. Y'all can't even make laws right.
We should have turned you guys into Poland 2.0 or something.
Probably because pigs aren't rapists, which defames the race of our lovely bacon providers.
That trash of a human, and his fellow trash on the other hand
Defame definition: to harm the reputation of by communicating false statements about **:** to harm the reputation of by libel (see [libel entry 1 sense 2a](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libel#h1)) or slander
What false statements did she make exactly?
What an absurd fucking country.
***The Telegraph reports:*** A woman in Germany has been given a harsher sentence than a convicted rapist after she was found guilty of defaming him. Maja R, a 20-year-old from Hamburg, called him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”, defamatory under German law. He was one of nine attackers who gang-raped a 15-year-old girl in a Hamburg park in 2020, in a case that shocked the city. Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail for her verbal attacks. The rapist was given a suspended sentence and served no prison time due to his age. The sentence has sparked anger over what critics see as the flaws in Germany’s judicial system, with disproportionate punishment for defamation. Maja R expressed her disgust in a direct message to one of the gang-rapists via WhatsApp, after his name and number were leaked on Snapchat. She told the court she sent her message to him “without thinking twice”. “Aren’t you ashamed when you look in the mirror?” she asked, calling him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”. She also told the criminal that he “couldn’t go anywhere without getting kicked in the face” and said, “let’s hope you are just locked away”. The man was one of nine men and boys convicted of raping a heavily drunk 15-year-old in the bushes of a Hamburg park over a number of hours in Sept 2020. Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?” The rest of the attackers, including the one defamed by Maja R, were given suspended sentences, due to being under 18 at the time. Anne Meier-Goering, the presiding judge, lamented during the trial that “none of the defendants said a word of regret”. Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case. She apologised to the young man she had contacted, telling the court “it didn’t help anyone”. She added that she wanted to go back to school and study to become a paediatric nurse. The case has laid bare Germany’s harsh defamation laws, which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like “idiot”. Breaking the law can lead to punishment of up to two years in prison. The district court said it had received strong reactions over the rulings in both the defamation case and the rape trial which prompted it. Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg. A court spokesman told the Hamburger Abendblatt local newspaper last week: “We are observing the hostility in connection with the proceedings and the verdict with great concern.” He said the anger over the case had “reached a new, worrying level of intensity” and described the criticism as “a targeted attack on the rule of law”. **Full story:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/28/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-calling/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/28/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-calling/)
> Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg. They are doing what now...
This feels like something The Onion would post, seriously what the fuck
Do you want a right wing government? Because this is how you get an extreme right wing government. Fucking morons.
If they would put an end to such obvious bullshit can you really blame people for being on board? If your under 18 why do you have a free crime pass in Germany?
In mostly any country really
Because rehabilitation, not punishment is the idea. Problem is, where is the point where punishment becomes a form of rehabilitation
Can’t rehabilitate people who have no habilitation to start with.
And that rehabilitation attitude is one reason why people stop voting for left-wing governments. What do you think would happen in the upcoming US election if the Biden administration announced that rapists would no longer do jail time so they could be rehabilitated? Frankly, such serious crimes demand punishment. There's no justice when the victim's life is ruined but the perpetrator gets to just go on and live a great life.
The US would have to start putting rapist in jail first for that decision to be made. [Only 6% of rapist see jail time due to lack of reporting.](https://cmsac.org/facts-and-statistics/#:~:text=Factoring%20in%20unreported%20rapes%2C%20only,a%2058%25%20chance%20of%20conviction.) If reported, only around 50% will be arrested, and there are 25,000 untested rape kits (from the 30 states that reported, the real number is much higher than that) just sitting in storage from the few people who do report it.
Why are you posting a stat that includes unreported SA? How does that relate to convicted rapists?
The trouble is rehabilitation is difficult and costly to implement well so it either doesn't happen or it's a token gesture.
Rehabilitation doesn't work either. Those people should be locked up, not as punishment, but to protect everybody else.
I firmly believe that rapists and paedophiles CANNOT be rehabilitated. They know what they're doing is wrong, and yet they show zero remorse for their actions. Some (many) even go as far as taunting their victims. The judge's rule simply reinforces the belief that they can commit such atrocious crimes and get away with it. Unfortunately until humongous sentences start being issued I fear nothing will change
Politics is like a pendulum. Push it too far in one direction...
It’s crazy, Germany needs US style free speech laws or they’ll end up with a conservative government that biasly picks and chooses what it enforces.
Germany won't have US style free speech laws because their system is built partly to fight nazi influence. It's why they're so aggressive against anti-Israel protesters.
It can still be almost the same as here in the US with the exception of it's illegal to be a Nazi or call for a genocide. It's not that different from the incitement to violence laws we have here.
Far right wing would castrate the rapists no matter who they are Here it’s about the special status the rapist hold as an underaged boy and new immigrant from a disenfranchised socioeconomic background So far left wing
He means that because the existing left wing government is giving special treatment to the rapist that people will likely want to replace the left wing government with a right wing one.
>Far right wing would castrate the rapists no matter who they are LOL That might be the dumbest thing I have read this year, and people have been talking about last night's presidential debate for the past 16 hours.
Not necessarily, far right people tend to make exceptions for their buddies, discredit rape when done by their friends. Let’s not go to extremes, the far right has never been above corruption, even when going against their supposed values.
Lol, no.
Have seen two pastors admit to molesting children in the congregation and the Church members applauded and forgave them. So let's not go there bud.
Only if their parents or grandparents aren't Germany. If German boys do it, it's for the preservation of the nation.
Far-Delusional comment. The far right in Europe are literally using rape as a weapon of war right now. The right wing has never been anti-rape. At most, they have been anti-other-races-doing-the-raping.
wtf what right wingers do that?
how is defamation if he is a rapist? that seems like calling a spade a spade it's honestly disgusting, and only going to push people to the right-wing I left politically and dont understand WTF a lot of leaders are doing, they are alienating everyone
Investigating insults undermines justice. Focus on protecting victims, not offenders' feelings.
Its real in Germany now > Rape culture refers to a cultural environment that creates a context where rape is normalized, trivialized, accepted, and even encouraged
Sounds like a great use of time and resources We need to get to the bottom of who insulted these rapists ...
Add me to the list. Fuck those scumbag pieces of trash. They should be deported back to the rotting corpses of countries they crawled out from.
Spending tax payer money.
Said "authorities" need to be ....."corrected"
"What man doesn't want that?" Spoken like a true incel from one of the most misogynistic countries in the world.
If this is the rule of law in Germany, there absolutely *should* be a “targeted attack on the rule of law”. Gang rapists suffering virtually no consequences just because they’re under 18 is absurd. They know goddamn well that that behavior is reprehensible, and they showed absolutely no remorse.
It's actually asinine to think that a sexually mature male cannot understand the consequences of committing sexual assault and therefore should be excused of it. If the age of consent is lower than 18 (and it is), then the age of receiving full punishment for sexual assault should be lowered along with it. The law already considers you an 'adult' with its age of consent laws, it should not suddenly treat you as a "child" if you commit sexual crimes. But of course, it's just another symptom of ivory tower bureaucracy, where some privileged, rich man who has no contact with any form of "real life" decides how the world works at his desk and pats himself on the back for phrasing his musings with fancy words as if that's a sign of any sophistication.
Adult punishment for adult crimes
They also need to start saying: minor or not, if you aren’t a citizen and you are found to be pulling this crap, immediate deportation.
Flayed in a public square and left exposed to the elements sounds better to me.
>Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?” Stop it Germany, this is why the right-wing is gaining support in Europe.
What a filthy savage. Disgusting.
Careful now, you could spend time in prison and revoke your right to a higher education for saying things like that.
exactly! then we go crying the “right is taking over” Europe
This is why right-wingers are gaining support around the world. Once the left decided free speech was actually a bad thing, they lost many of their most ardent supporters.
what a bizarre set of circumstances... is Germany overcorrecting for sth?
Going to jail for... not even bad words.
I wouldn't even call it defamation because the guy did the crime, and was found guilty. From the German law >Whosoever asserts or disseminates a fact related to another person which may defame him or negatively affect public opinion about him, shall, unless this fact can be **proven to be true**, be liable to imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine and, if the offence was committed publicly
Yeah, sounds like they got it wrong by their own rules. In UK law, you have several defenses: * it is true * it is vulgar abuse * it is opinion, rather than matter of fact (e.g. "[fact I can prove] makes them a _terrible person_"). Also, big difference is that defamation isn't criminal, it is a civil offense — so the defendant would have to sue in a totally separate court case.
Also it was a message on whatsapp, not a public forum. So it wasn't public defamation.
Yeah private messages aren't subject to libel at all in the UK. Well. It depends on the size of the group chat I suppose, but speaking one on one isn't.
The truth has only been a defense against defamation in the UK since 2013, which is hilarious.
This is incorrect. It has always been a defence, for example see the 1953 act, the legal wording was modified to be much simpler in 2013.
I hope the verdict will be appealed soon.
>I wouldn't even call it defamation because the guy did the crime, and was found guilty. I have no clue why they used the word defamation - it's not that, it's insulting someone.
Ok but is he biologically a pig? /s
Yeah, I think we're missing something, but I don't know how to find out what.
Its Kind of a mistranslation, basically insulting someone is already a crime and she got sentenced for that. If she Had Just called him a rapist, it probably wouldnt have amounted to anything but the insults and her not appearing before court heavily influenced the sentence.
For telling it how it is.
"Cursing a minority, believe it or not. Straight to jail"
Not exactly the case. I don't agree with her being punished at all. I support her actions. However, she was apparently caught stealing and then didn't attend the hearing. So I guess this is more of a punishment for that than the actual text message.
When stealing is viewed as worse than rape
I know. Rape should be punished MUCH harder. But again, not the point. She was in jail for a weekend because she skipped the court date and was again found guilty of something. You can't let someone go unpunished because someone else did something worse. Someone who murders a murderer is still a murderer. They should get punished the same or our legal system won't matter. That said, I again want to make clear that the punishment for the rapists was basically non existent and that feels like a crime in itself. Two wrongs still don't make a right. I know it's old and cringy, but that's pretty much spot on.
Mean words, maybe. Even so, I'd say they were accurate.
We have just gone a serious fucked uped way since the mid 2010's. Its so much wrong here on a small and on a larger scale we will never be able to correct.
The weekend in jail isn't such a serious punishment, the problem is suspending the sentence for the rapist.
I would say a weekend in jail for calling someone a "disgusting pig" is pretty serious.
It's unthinkable. Germany has really dropped a few pegs in my mind. Not very liberal or free.
Both are absolutely ridiculous Germany genuinely seems like an absolute joke of a country reading this
I am German and I can confirm that it is indeed an absolute joke
Sounds like victim blaming. I’d commit violence, and rightfully so. Against the rapist to be clear. He definitely hasn’t gotten what he deserves. Talk about backwards and morally bankrupt. Not you, the powers that be over there are. Not being committed to justice for the real victim. For clarification
It's not the victim, it's a random other person who 'defamed' him
How is it defamation if she said it to the person? Even ignoring all of the other bullshit related to this law, she didn’t hurt his image publicly in any way
Meanwhile Saudi Arabia will cut your head if you say a blasphemy. Perhaps we should switch it up and behead rapists regardless of their age but let people call themselves names if they want to.
Even with the offender being a minor, what a bizarre story.
It's really telling how fucked up when full on rape gets less prison time than simple true words spoken.......
>Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case. Wait a moment. Isn't this important to the story?
No because she shouldn't be facing any consequences for calling a rapist a pig.
Yes, she received jail time because she had prior convictions, I imagine she wouldn't if she didn't have any
It is. Priors always influence the sentence.
It's the Telegraph, they only paint Germany in the worst light possible.
Like, I get that Germany has some laws regarding what can be said given WW2 history and the efforts afterwards like for holocaust supporters/deniers, but what the fuck, Germany? Your slur laws means you can say idiot or pig to someone?
I don’t understand how it’s defamatory? Can someone explain. He is a rapist. So what am I missing?
It's a mistranslation. She was punished for insulting him and yes that is a crime in Germany (§185 StGB)
That’s crazy as hell
Crazier things have happened in Germany...
That shouldn’t be a crime
You can't be mean to rapists, you may hurt the feewings, could someone please think of the poor rapists! 😭 Just in case: #/S
There appears to be some similarities with how the law is in Sweden. I appolgize for only being a layman but to my understanding it goes like this: You may not publicly spread defaming words about another person, unless that information is of some use or benefit to the public. This means that you can’t go around spreading rumors about people, even if those rumors are true, without risking a fine or other sanction. Even if the rapist is convicted you may not be able to spread it. Something about weighing the the benefit to the public by knowing this vs protecting private lifes. Maybe the rapist made a mistake and won’t do it again? Or maybe it was some sort of sexual harassment? Or maybe this is a person with a history of harassment or rape and thus worthy of warning everyone else about? Something like that. Is it good or bad? How about both, depending on the situation. But I hope this shines a light on the ways in some countries where you can ”defame” someone by telling the truth
Thank you for the explanation. In theory I’m for rehabilitation, but from what I understand they are unrepentant. I do feel like this is a Brock Turner situation, where we should name and shame. Rape is already underreported in both men and women, shaming those who haven’t served an appropriate prison sentence because if the justice system refuses to actually dole out justice and protect the people you get shit like this. Prison is to protect the general populace and the perpetrators. Separate them because if you don’t there will be rumours and then violence.
Defamation in civil law doesn't have to be false. In common law (like the US and most of Canada), truth can be a full defense (exceptions apply, check with a lawyer).
Saw this on another news outlet and people were calling it “a conservative blog” and weren’t believing it.
Always awkward when conservatives are right about something.
To be right 100% of the time is to be perfect, always assume you and your party are wrong on some issues cause it's not like your opposition got to where they are by being wrong all the time.
This does not make any sense. That guy is a pig after the unforgivable act that he committed. That misogynistic judge who sentenced her to jail should be ashamed of himself.
C'mon, let's not bring pigs down to their level.
Germany has developed a new kind two class society. The two classes are: 1. the people you love to view and show as the bad guys 2. the people who must never be viewed or shown as the bad guys. Guess who is who, lol. German drunks sing a dumb song on Sylt? Names, addresses, employers! All possible info was out there in a few hours. A group of „young men“ beat some kid to death? „Well, it is best to delay any comments until further investigation allows for them.“ At this point the perpetrator/-s are often already known or at least there is a very strong lead to who it most likely was. Plus: our politicians only ever shed light on crimes committed by Germans against minorities. And if the opposite is the case and they comment on it, you can clearly tell that someone wrote that crap 5 liner for them to post on X and be in the clear.
And somehow, for no reason at all, National Socialism took over. First gradually then all at once. Europe seems predestined to repeat its mistakes. It’s truly fascinating to me how the European progressive elite can’t comprehend what they are doing. Maybe it’s on purpose and they want global war. That would actually make more logical sense.
Plus: the general public seem to be blind to the truth, even when present with statistics from the government itself. Tendency: a certain demographic of people is a lot lote criminal than other - again, guess who - but most people, when asked, drastically underestimate the truth and the deny it when corrected by some counterpart in the conversation or interview.
Who said that about murderers? Any quotes? Because right wingers are so happy to call themselves victims nowadays.
If there is any reaction at all. Faesers lack of a reaction to several attacks was very telling, whole she was instantly on the Case regarding the Sylt Story.
Exactly. They tell by not telling.
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This is just more proof of a broken justice system that favours criminals over victims and the rest of the general population. Where I come from in Canada the justice system is a complete joke where criminals only get a slap on the wrist.
Y’all really need to start reading the article before you start making baseless accusations of a judge being misogynistic. She was given jail time because she had a previous conviction for theft never showed up to court. Edit: also, the judge was a woman who lamented that none of the attackers showed any remorse.
Regardless, jail time for theft… yes… bt zero time for RAPING a minor?! The fuck is going on?
German Legal Prosecutors Pocket Guide for Sex Crimes: Gang raping minors :) Being mean to gang rapists D:
Also small note. When I googled this to figure out it was legit, I was confused because I was reading another report from 2016 for the [EXACT SAME THING WITH THE EXACT SAME RESULT IN THE EXACT SAME CITY](https://www.dw.com/en/hamburg-teenagers-walk-free-after-gang-rape-conviction/a-36142782). These judges need to be charged themselves for dereliction of duty
ironically enough the state of Hamburg was the first with over 50% female judges
Why are you talking about charging the judges? They acted in accordance with the law. The law needs a serious overhaul. That's the problem. Not the judges.
I’m not German so tried to look up the law but sentencing is up to the judge with limits due to age and 17 year olds can be sent to youth detention for [up to 5 years (page 7)](https://rsf.uni-greifswald.de/storages/uni-greifswald/fakultaet/rsf/lehrstuehle/ls-duenkel/Veroeffentlichungen/Duenkel_-_Youth_Justice_in_Germany_-_Oxford_Handbooks_Online.pdf). So since all were reported as at least 17 at the time, 4 got probation, 4 got deferred judgement on if they will be sent to detainment (we’ll see) and 1 guy got 2 years likely because he was reportedly an asshole in court. Still seems extremely lenient for something so serious
Everything about this case is outrageous, but she was not jailed for that. She was jailed for having a theft conviction for which she never appeared in court. When she appeared in court for this, they sentenced her for the theft.
Ah thanks for pointing that out. I agree with the judge penalizing her for skipping court (assuming she wasn’t a minor at the time of that theft) but still pretty ridiculous that a minor coordinating and willingly participating in a gang rape draws less effective legal repercussions than an adult missing court for a (likely) misdemeanor
Depending on what each party looks like of course.
Disgusting. Completely unacceptable for the victim and society as a whole. If you want to understand why the far-right are “marching” - look no further. It’s not some underground of secret Nazi’s coming to the surface… It’s people you know, seeing things like this and getting sick of it. Voting for the only parties that say they’ll deal with it. If you want to stop the far-right, demand moderate parties address absurdities like this directly and honestly.
Yep. Mass migration of people who refuse to assimilate to German cultural norms is creating issues and the left in Germany is too stupid to realize that they are providing the right with the perfect propaganda weapons. These gang rapists should have never been in the country in the first place, like most of these refugees, due to a lack of common values and the reality they should be fighting for their own countries instead of trying to hitch a free ride off the benefits of others who sacrificed for their own countries. Selfish people looking for free shit elsewhere and then commit crimes when people don't want to consent to their selfish anti assimilationist behavior. True justice would be every single gang rapist given the death penalty for their crime but Europe is soft unfortunately.
i have a few reasons where i am against the death penalty to rape, but the primary one is that if a rapist knows he would be killed for raping someone, why wouldnt they just kill the victim every time?
Maybe make it so horrific that the fear of punishment is enough. Countries like Singapore used to have much worse problems with drug trafficking until they started executing people for it and publically beating the users and forcing brutal rehab. Drug crime went down.
I would not hold Singapore up as a success story here. Nowadays, the people they catch include the mentally disabled, and drug mules. There was a big uproar last year when Singapore executed a man whose IQ was deemed too low to understand the implications of his actions. That was not justice. They don't catch the people who are actually responsible for the drug trafficking, the kingpins.
"why is the far right rising in Europe?"
u/Rattnick · 2 days ago In germany we have freedom of expression not freedom of speech. If you dont like it we dont care This you? Now do you see why freedom of speech is important?
So immigrants are gang raping people and the victims are being put in jail? And then they scratch their heads on why people are going right.
The woman being charged wasn't the victim. But I agree. The charges for the rapists should've been harsher. Probation for a gang rape is wild.
reading the article challenge (impossible)
She even had to apologize ~~to her rapist~~ (not the same women, corrected), lmao. Good work Germany.
Wasnt her that was raped. Still fucking hilarious on a bad level. German law is a joke.
yeah, especially since it sounds from this like it is legally possible for a woman to be jailed for calling her rapist a disgusting rapist
Oh ok. This is not nearly as fucked up then.
The woman who was sent to jail was not the victim, they are two different people
The title should be clearer, the woman is not the rape survivor, she's just a random person who messaged the rapist after his number got doxxed.
And they wonder why the right continues to gain support. This insanity right here.
Why is the EU so lenient to violent criminals and so harsh on victims of crime? This seems to be a theme.
Because the many social systems here are a massive joke that always favour the egotistical and psychopathic perpetrators. In the Netherlands you'd be lucky to even see a judge within a few years of when it happened. Child protection service is actively working against the interests of the children by forcing them to go back to a deranged, alcoholic and proven criminal father. Police are a joke and will per definition only act after something major and irreversible has happened. Unless you happen to be speeding or park your car in the wrong spot ofcourse. And the amount of prove required to convict is seriously insane. Store where my ex was on shift at the time was robbed. Perpetrators were armed and threatened her. They made away with tons of cash, goods and a stolen car. This has occured at multiple locations and after getting caught it took 3 years to trail, during which he lived as a "free" man. Multiple camera shots with his full face, eye witnesses and DNA on the weapon together with being caught in that stolen car. He walked free without punishment.
wokeness. if the criminal isn't white, they're automatically a victim themself by default, and if they're not, they're some other sort of victim of circumstance and therefor should be sympathized with and not punished. just another symptom of late stage societal collapse.
The laws that apply are older than the term wokeness. Non-whites go to jail all the time. This wasn't about the rapists being from a minority it was because they were minors. The laws need changing but your statement is just plain wrong.
Awww, poor rapists! We couldn't POSSIBLY go hurting their fee-fees. Absolutely disgusting. The judges involved in both cases should be ashamed of themselves.
Is this because it's an insult to pigs to be compared to rapists? If not I don't get it. The rapists deserve to be called shit worse than "pig". The fact that none of them showed remorse is horrible.
calling a rapist a pig is an insult to pigs lol
Somewhat inflammatory headline: the rapist was given a suspended sentence because he was a minor. Still, it is bizarre, in my American view, to send anyone to jail for internet flaming, especially if the person being flamed is a literal rapist.
Its a joke he wasnt imprisoned. A minor who commits *gang rape* is a threat to society, especially to other minors. The parents need investigating as well for raising such a piece of human excrement.
Still crazy from a US perspective cause we’d just charge him as an adult cause the crime was so awful
This is the weirdest thing about it. Why tf would you arrest and imprison someone for calling a literal rapist a pig? Germany, get your shit together pls, this is ridiculous.
You'd be surprised by German laws. A man once was raided by the police and arrested for calling a politician a dick on Twitter.
If he's old enough to commit rape he's old enough to go to fucking jail.
She called him a "rapist pig" and "disgusting miscarriage". She is right, but the problem is that under German law insults are a crime (§185 StGB)
These rapists are from a protected minority......that's why calling them names is worse than rape. For those who are not aware, the perpetrators are members of a certain middle Eastern religion.
It's so bizarre some people jump straight from "it is possible these people might to discriminated against" to "all complaints against these people are because of discrimination"
Thank you Angela Merkel.
The term “idiot” could land you up to 2 years in prison from this article. That’s absolutely insane. Shes the one who implemented these laws?
I imagine part of the thanking Angela Merkel related to letting thousands of these men into the country on an open invite.
How is it defamation if it was a direct message? Was it on a group chat or something?
Translation issue. In Germany, you get jail time for insulting someone. That's not a joke, it's fucking crazy.
That is so fucked up.
It's time for the people of Germany to engage in civil disobedience and unleash a torrent of insults against that rapist pig.
Imagine wasting that man power for people insulting human trash. Everyone would be happy if they wouldn’t exist anymore so what’s the deal regarding some text messages 🤷♂️
Idiots. All of them. When this happens, societies crumble. Circle your wagons folks, because we let the proverbial barbarians in, in a proverbial trojan horse that looked like extreme "compassion" and woke reactive policy making, and its going to end in bloodshed.
Light sentences for a group of nine "young men" that gang-raped a teenager? Interesting. Anyway, how are those opinion polls for the next German elections looking?
O.o
From the article: Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail **because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case.**
Still, they arrest her for theft but not the other dudes for rape
I hope events like this are documented in future history classes to explain how/why countries turn to autocracies and right-wing governments. Not understanding how this is a part of a larger cause-effect relationship of growing populist disdain for western institutions on behalf of the citizenry seems to be a huge neo-liberal blind spot and is likely to continue snowballing until someone is willing to be “mean” and correct the course.
And then, for no reason at all, the people elected Adolf Hitler
He…all of them should have “rapist pig” tattooed on their foreheads
We should just skin the rapist alive and be done with it.
This is why the german right is rising again. Left wing politicians not only not dealing with this shit, but refusing to acknowledge its existence at all. It will only result in right wing lunatics being elected across all of Europe.
The world has lost its fucking mind. Beam me up!
Most of us learn that rape is a sin a crime and worthy of damnation really early on in life. If a teenage boy does these things it’s because that’s who that man is. A rapist pig.
German laws are in serious need of reform.
And they are surprised as to what’s happening in elections recently why
Germany sounds like a shit hole. They just lowered the penalties for child porn too... such a disgusting place.
how do you go from Nazis to this shit? Find some balance (and some balls while you're at it)
My fucking goodness, how disgusting. The over compensation Germany is doing is just self-flagellation. You don't look righteous and virtuous. You look like fucking morons.
This is how the “far right” wins.
Germany should start taking actual crimes more seriously and stop trying to police people’s speech
Since when is pig a curse name? That's a big offense to all pigs
He got no sentence due to his age? Can someone please clarify for me, at what age it is appropriate to join in a gang rape of a 15yr old?
Disgusting to see how screwed up the entire world has quickly become.
History will repeat itself
And people wonder why the far right is getting more voters...
Okay look. German law people embody the bureaucratic cliché. They won't compare crimes in an "eye for an eye" fashion. It's absolutely scandalous that none of the rapists did any time. What the fuck. On an unrelated note, that someone got a weekend in jail for defamation and not even showing up to the court hearing is kinda realistic, actually.
Every Iranian feminist should be given a heavy weapon.
Fuck Germany and fuck that pig rapist piece of shit.
How is it slandering if it's true? That man IS a disgusting pig who deserves to get kicked in the face wherever he goes. Fuck that asshole.
Germany continuing it's millennia-long goal of embarrassing and destroying Europe, I see.
This is insane
Any they wonder why nationalism is on the rise ffs
And this is what is wrong with the world. Those people need to be punished AND PUBLICLY SHAMED! Tar and feather those disgusting pigs. Take out ads across the country and dox them in the most public way possible. AND do so in their countries of origin.
With "justice" like this, the only true justice happens with that rapist pig surrounded in a dark alley.....
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They something far worse. Most of the times the victim loses years from his/hers life trying to even get back to a normal state of mind. I would go with physical castration and a sentence of life (or the durability of the victim to restore life) of physical hard work. Something along the lines of move this boulder there and back again.
The left bowed to their extremists now we all pay
Thank god I live in America, seems abhorrent that simple words land you in jail when the guy in question was absolute a pig by raping a minor wtf??!!!
Hahahahhahaha it’s hilarious the rule of law is being used to protect criminal scum. Can the Germans not be so fucking autistic for 2 seconds Jesus fucking Christ
Germany is the most dumb country. Like man. Your food sucks. You guys did the holocaust. Y'all can't even make laws right. We should have turned you guys into Poland 2.0 or something.
Lmfao. Europe is fucking joke
Western societies are going big on misogyny. Western men hate women.
Probably because pigs aren't rapists, which defames the race of our lovely bacon providers. That trash of a human, and his fellow trash on the other hand
Defame definition: to harm the reputation of by communicating false statements about **:** to harm the reputation of by libel (see [libel entry 1 sense 2a](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libel#h1)) or slander What false statements did she make exactly? What an absurd fucking country.