This is nuts. It absolutely needs to be the end of Kobayashi Seiyaku.
They had one simple responsibility not to make things that kill people. And in emails, there was some evidence that they were aware if this issue.
Right now they have a few commercials on TV apologizing for the inconvenience and announcing the recall.
I don't think we will ever know the real number of deaths because a lot of resellers were selling these supplements in countries all over the world. In some countries, they may not make the connection between a death and taking this particular supplement.
I'm really surprised this came out of Japan. I for sure thought we'd all get poisoned by all the Chinese supplements at some point. i figured theyd Just throw a little fentanly in everyone's multivitamin and boom no more american problem. Not like anyone tests these and they all probably come from like 3 Chinese factories.
Or maybe it's more tested then I think?
That says more about you than about China or Japan. A huge percentage of the things we buy in the West (including some of the medicines that keep us healthy) come from China, yet cases of harm directly imputable to Chinese responsibility are extremely rare. Not sure what makes you think Japanese companies would have people's health in higher regard than Chinese ones.
Sure it hasn't or barely has happened, it just makes more sense for China to poison Americans intentionally than Japan. Not saying this company intentionally did that. Very impressive that China hasn't done so accidentally or even on purpose yet. Just seems like an obvious vector of attack considering the relationship between the us and China. But they probably don't really want to see us all die since ya know we buy all their stuff.
I was with you on the first sentence (I'm mixed Japanese and they stress quality and pride in work) but then boy did that take a random racist conspiracy theory twist.
Lol what's racist or conspiracy about it? China produces most of our supplements and most of the fentanyl to mexican cartels comes from China.
https://www.dea.gov/documents/2023/2023-10/2023-10-03/justice-department-announces-eight-indictments-against-china
They kinda indirectly are poisoning the us with fentanyl anyways. Why not just skip the middle man at some point and just throw it in all the supplements.
I don't hate Chinese people. I'm just aware of what's happening.
Yes? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
It's not really about Nanny state, it's about how much corruption there is. And corruption can crop up anywhere. If it spreads, so does the danger to the average consumer.
Thank you, I was going to go in a ruff about this AND the heparin drug that was cut with something else that killed people that came from China. We have to this day been one of the leading exporters of baby formula to China because of what happened in 2008. We have stricter import guidelines on medicine because of the heparin situation.
sorry, where is the news about the Chinese throwing a little fentanyl in everyone's multivitamin?
Typical American:
When see bad news from the West, mention/fabricate China bad news first, then accuse Chinese about "Whataboutism"
What? There is no news. That's pretty clear from my post that I believed this would happen from China, not Japan. Not that it actually had.
They produce most of our supplements and do they even get tested? so by the numbers this would more likely happen from them, they also supply Mexico cartels with most of its fentanyl. they also (shock!) don't exactly see eye to eye with America and have been engaged in some form of conflict with usa for some time. also opium wars.
Put that all together and I made an aside that China makes more sense for this news to come from then Japan.
Nothing more. if you want to read into it more then that, that's cool. But there isn't more to it.
Typical again to blame your own problem with others.
Assuming China is the enemy of West civilization, why only you guys get such a huge problem of fentanyl,not Japan who has the worst relationship with China or UK who once had the opium war with China?
China has made death penalty to criminals who smuggle fentanyl to the US. However, the synthesis of fentanyl can be done through many different ways using legal materials, if they don't do the final synthesis part in China, it is difficult to regulate from the producer side.
Your drug problem is definitely not just limited to fentanyl , the overdose deaths from meth or cocaine are increasing rapidly as well. That probably says your DEA doesn't do their job well so that you have become a lucrative & safe market for world durg dealers.
Well the drug problem in the us is complicated and there's plenty of blame to go around for everyone involved. I would say the freedom of the us probably has a part in it being a bigger problem here than in most places. Also the diversity of life and culture here compared to a place like Japan. Also the ease of access into the us from the border crossings it is easy to bring in illegal drugs unlike say Japan again. It is an easily exploited problem and an easy way to make money in America. China sees an opportunity and took it.
Supplements industry is overall extreamly shady as they are not regulated like pharma companies are and basically they can claim anything and put something else in their product and basically there's nothing stopping them.
A quantitative review of NMR a popular and expensive health supplements shows that only 14% of brands contains what they claim. And a stunning 64% did not contain any trace of what they claim. The rest had less or far less.
https://s23.q4cdn.com/937095816/files/doc_downloads/2021/Quantitative-Analysis-of-22-NMN-Consumer-Products-Oct-2021.pdf
If you haven't heard of them, ConsumerLab tests supplements. You have to be a member to read the full test results, but you can generally see their top recommendations for free.
[ConsumerLab.com](http://www.ConsumerLab.com)
Trust me, brands will put on their label they've been certified by third parties like consumer lab or UL without ever testing the product. How do I know? I design packaging and have had clients ask me to do all sorts of sketchy stuff and add all sorts of lies to packaging and advertising campaigns. Not just small companies either, fortune 500s too
That's why I don't trust the labeling.
ConsumerLab isn't an endorsement, its a company that analyzes supplements and reports the results. I'm pretty sure ConsumerLab does not allow anybody to advertise their results as any kind of endorsement, similar to the way Consumer Reports does not allow manufacturers to advertise their recommendations.
This is a source I use to at least have a little confidence that my vitamin supplements actually contain the amounts claimed on the labels.
It doesn't look like the top recommendations are available without a subscription. I checked Magnesium, vitamin D and Fish Oil, none of them are available.
The supplement industry is such a scam, the things they can get away with are ridiculous. People have no idea just how bad it is and just see it as a legitimate alternative to *actual* medicine.
The worst part is that there are some legitimate non-Rx supplements that can actually help to treat medical conditions but without regulation who knows if you'll get a real one. My rare nervous system damage syndromes have no FDA approved treatments so I'm on several different Rxs but they're not enough so I am also on Palmitoylethanolamide and R-Alpha Lipoic Acid which have been part of formal studies and are sometimes "prescribed" (it's non-Rx) by doctors but again it's entirely unregulated so it's this game of trying to find a brand that is legit but doesn't break the bank. When I'm already on so many treatments that can cost up to hundreds a month I can't really afford an extra $160+ a month on the highest reputation brand for supplements. They have definitely helped though!
Yeah everyone here is shitting on people who use supplements "instead of" medicine, but I use a supplement (n-acetylcysteine) that my psychiatrist told me to use. I also read dozens of peer-reviewed studies that show the effectiveness of said supplement. Not all supplements are homeopathic medicine.
Yeah the higher up comment was overly broad in framing supplements as "alternative medicine".
Supplements are also things like vitamins.
Research funding is also not infinite. There are a lot of substances out there that have not had enough targetted funding to clear it for specific medical purposes, but have fairly promising test data. So it ends up coming down to people choosing if they're okay with the risk of taking something that doesn't have larger scale and timeframe outcomes.
The body building and fitness scene is full of substances like this. Many come and go as scams, while the ones that actually work tend to stick around, because you have people in these communities that get blood work to confirm changes.
That said, yes the "homeopathic mom" scene is especially full of scams and huge unproven claims given to all kinds of substances without any proper data to back it up. That is absolutely stupid for sure.
I have very painful poly neuropathy in 80% of my body. Been taking ala for 4 years. It somehow helps a little. During a 3 month period when I was in and out of hospital I didn’t take it. I was in so much pain. So it does work.
Yeah I recently had to skip my supplements for a couple days while I had a stomach virus and my symptoms came back so bad. Now that I have been on them for a few days again it's starting to get better.
A friend of mine ended up into alternative and chinese traditional medicine (because her disease has too few useful treatments yet) - and one of the things her "Dr of Chinese Medicine" prescribed her came in a little box covered in nothing you could read unless you knew mandarin, and contained ten black lumps of coal-tar like looking substance that she had to chop up and mince and drink with water.
She spent fifteen years exploring "treatments" like that, including "rectal ozone" treatments and "intravenous ozone injections". She credited her Dr. of Chinese Medicine with "curing her" (but she was never actually cured).
She died of cancer three years ago.
( She did NOT even for a moment consult her "alternative medicine experts" when it came to cancer. Another interesting tidibit - her "famous brilliant" alternative medicine Dr that she spent ten grand a year getting consultations with for a decade? Forced into retirement around 2021 when he came out as wildly anti-vax and wildly covid conspiracy nutjob. )
>she spent ten grand a year
That bugs me most I think, all these people are against scientifically proven medicine because its "big pharma" and yet shill out thousands for cooks and cranks like they are fighting the good fight.
Im sorry for the loss of your friend.
The modern world under capitalism is insanely complex. Of course I support proven medicine over random bullshit, but it’s incredibly difficult to ascertain for the average person what’s actually going to help them and what isn’t.
It’s wild that there’s tons of doctors that will listen to a few symptoms a patient claims and then instantly prescribe them powerful psychoactive drugs that are intended to completely change a person’s view of reality.
Most doctors have been forced to limit patient interaction as much as possible so they can see more customers and maximize profits. I totally understand why some people become so disillusioned with the medical system in America that they put their faith in random bullshit instead of
> Many people try to avoid "actual medicine" because of how often it can cause more harm than good and can even have side effects that destroy some peoples health.
Correct. But here's the thing: any supplement that actually works *is medicine* and will have the same potential for side-effects.
Many supplement manufacturers sidestep this reality by giving non-existent doses of the supplement.
I've noticed some American supplement/herbal medicine brands advertise on their packaging that they are "homeopathic", even though they are clearly not and have actual, specified amounts of said herb or supplement in the product.
WTF? Is this because "homeopathic" has no legal meaning in the US or something? Is it used as a general word for "herbal" or "alternative" medicine? I found it baffling when I visited the US.
"Homeopathic", "herbal", and "alternative" all have no legal meaning in the US. Like food additives, supplements are barely regulated in America. And America de facto sets the global standards.
"The medicines doctors give you to control those things have caused so many severe health issues for people in my family. The side effects are so we couldn't even convince my elderly mother to keep taking hers. She would rather have died, than lived with the side effects of the medicines."
Where did you get this crazy-ass theory?
Not if you do your research. When I seem to catch a cold, some Pau D’Arco and Selenium when taken early nips it in the bud for me. And the whole reason I even know about it is because in the past I managed to cure some nasty stuff that doctors failed to properly diagnose with it. They *can* be legitimate alternative to actual medicine because some supplements like the ones I mentioned above have a more general field of application and relatively harmless compared to what the doctor might prescribe you. Heck you could die from a pack of eggs in a supermarket, this is not a reason to call the entire industry a scam because of a few bad eggs.
Than the FDA already saying that it can't find a plausible reading to call supplements medications? People like to pretend Chevron deference was about experts saying what is and isn't dangerous, but it was really about lawyers (experts or a sort, I guess) seeking how far they could stretch beyond the obvious reading of the law.
The FDA would love to regulate supplements, they are not allowed to. Congress has passed laws limiting their scope and protecting the supplement industry. Thanks in large part to the disgusting retired Utah senator Orrin Hatch
There is nothing obvious about a vague law other than it’s initial intent. Are the laws good enough to be perfect in application at every instance? No. But (edit: from my view,) replacing bad with worse (throwing the baby out with the bath water) has always been a common goal of the red team.
This concern is overblown which is typical of reddit. While the ruling removed the mandatory deferral to agency interpretations of Federal Laws it does not forbid a court from still doing so. Also consider that states do not operate this way and they do a fine job of reigning in bad actors all the time. Nothing in this ruling invalidates the expertise of agencies and any proceeding in Federal Court will bring their concerns to light for all to see which leads to...
Plus there is another side to all of this. Getting to Federal court does not mean the person or company is getting away with it. Many will seek to avoid this level of public scrutiny as a lot of the administrative rulings by agencies are generally not interesting enough to reach the attention of the public. However once you are in Federal Court the media tends to notice and if there is a public harm element to the story we are off to the races.
Finally, many agencies like the FDA do not need a legal proceeding to act. Regulations permit them to recall products and companies voluntarily do this all the time. The last thing most companies want is the public perception they are resisting the FDA while people are being harmed.
But that ignores the central issue’s Thai was a massive power grab away from regulators they are experts in the field and towards judges who rarely if ever have any expertise or knowledge in these fields.
Capture the judiciary, talke away the power to regulate, then deny all claims in the courts. This is the express plan of the federalist society/2025 types.
The people these companies are scamming from are the same people who thought the FDA was pushing conspiracies during COVID about “non approved” treatments.
They don’t care.
Is there not any sort of government agency that can test products in the US? That can prosecute companies which lie about the content of their products, especially if they harm consumers? As a non American, I am somewhat confused.
Surely, whatever the product - pharmaceutical, herbal, homeopathic, food supplement, food, whatever - if they mislead consumers as to the contents, and/or the results of consuming the product, they will be prosecuted? It shouldn't be on the consumers to sue the company AFTER they've been harmed or misled, surely?
The supplement industry has gotten laws passed limiting the scope of regulatory agencies. The FDA is powerless for the most part when it comes to anything classified as a supplement, and those labeled that way can literally put whatever they want in their product with no oversight. On the contrary, the FDA is very good at regulating the pharmaceutical industry and you can trust those product have the safety, purity, potency, and efficacy that is claimed.
Man, it would seem that that is a great way to get sued, but I guess with the sheer number of supplement companies and some being pretty small, they probably know that they will get a “cease and desist” or some kind of warning before any real action is taken. And so they just stick it on Willy-nilly until they actually get caught.
It's not even regulated as food as they also have to tell you what they put in, it should be logical that is the minimum requirement of at least the things you put inside your body.
This is why I have been trying to track down cGMP produced supplements but it's hard to figure out which companies are actually cGMP or just say they are following GMP guidelines.
Following your response, I saw that "Current Good Manufacturing Process" certificates are used for international sale.
American supplements cannot "grow" their brand to ship globally unless they meet standards of the market nations.
These supplements were only sold in China and Japan. The supplement market in China is really crazy, people love their supplements and there are all sorts of black market supplements people take. My kids babysitter is from China and her mom visited her in the US for a few months and every day she’d go to Costco and buy hundreds of supplements and then sell them on instagram and send them to China (probably illegal). She made thousands and thousands of dollars in the few months she was here. The US supplements apparently go for $$$ over there because they believe they’re highly regulated (jokes on them…).
To be fair, given what passes as supplements in China, I’d rather have one from the US that just doesn’t work. Imagine having to eat shriveled goat penis everyday just for nothing!
Goat penis wont kill you something laced with lead or mercury ore is more problematic, those are a thing too.
In the US the allowed limit of lead is often exceeded, but it’s never just straight up an ingredient.
Nothing is stopping American supplement makers from putting whatever they want in their product. There’s no reason they would be any safer than anything from China.
> Imagine having to eat shriveled goat penis everyday just for nothing!
Eh, I guess it would depend on [how it's cooked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVjkMVUZF38#t=13m27s).
Like Rocky Mountain Oysters.
I may be mistaken but I think a Japanese company made a bad batch of tryptophan back in the 1980s that resulted in a full import ban until like 2005. To this day I never see tryptophan on the shelves in my pharmacy
The cause of death seems to be kidney failure, specifically a toxic compound in the supplement damaging the proximal tubules. Based on animal studies, the compound is suspected to be puberulic acid.
This "red yeast rice" supplement involves fermenting rice with the mold Monascus purpureus, which produces lovastatin, the same compound as Merck's statin drug Mevacor. It is suspected that contamination by other strains of mold in that fermentation produced the puberulic acid.
My best friend owns a small nutritional supplement factory in China, while she strives really hard to produce safe, accurate, and reliable products of the highest quality, the stories she shares about the competition and potential customers (retailers) are super disturbing. Cynicism, deceit, and greed prevails on both sides. If you consume nutritional supplements, you should expect you’re being deliberately lied to about basically everything on the label. Good companies exist, but they are rare.
My mom got into supplements when she was older and put a lot of research in finding good sources for them because apparently which country you source certain herbs/spices from is important because some countries like India and China are well known for having heavy metal contaminants. The main one she was looking for was tumeric.
She got friendly with the local health food and supplement store owner and they would help her source things. She ended up having to buy certain things in bulk a few times.
There are a lot of people spreading misinformation about supplements. Supplements will not grant you immortality. Supplements will not protect against heart disease or cancer.
I used to be a believer in taking extra supplements until I found out a)excess is harmful, b)tumors LOVE extra vitamins and c)what you buy in supplement packages most likely doesn’t even contain any!
If it isn’t eliminated in your urine, excess can be harmful for certain vitamins. Overall your body is pretty good at regulating and maintaining itself. Do you have any sources for B, I’d love to check that out
I knew the supplement industry was shady, but how about whey protein powder and creatine in Japan? I’ve been buying whatever’s on sale, but maybe I should be a little more selective…
Supplements are not tested to be effective. There is no credible evidence that they work as claimed. The best supporters can do is offer anecdotes. Anecdotes are not substitutes for double blind studies.
Vitamin supplement availability is important for the comparatively "small" group that actually needs them, e.g. the elderly and patients on heavily restricted diets.
It's sort of like gluten free. The vast majority of people who eat gluten free products do not need to do so, but the larger market means that the products are more widely available for the people who do need them.
Depends on what you think (or rather label) is a supplement, protein powder and creatine are supplements, by definition, and they do indeed work, very well actually.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10079511/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10079511/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407788/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407788/)
This is ridiculous. This is like saying all drugs cause death or drugs don’t work. There are hundreds of different supplements ranging from vitamins, minerals, herbs, etc. Vitamin c supplement will prevent and treat scurvy but does not significantly reduce cancer. St Johns Wort in several systematic reviews shows efficacy for mild and moderate depression, and compared to antidepressant drugs it has less side effects. But it does not work for bipolar. Taking vitamins does not make you live longer and taking too much will shorten your life. Also adulterate products is a big concern. It is complicate subject that you can not just say it works or doesn’t.
>Supplements are not tested to be effective. **There is no credible evidence that they work as claimed.** The best supporters can do is offer anecdotes. Anecdotes are not substitutes for double blind studies.
>They do not work.
That’s…not what your article says.
The study referenced was looking specifically at mortality data.
>had about the same risk of dying
>the mortality benefits
>mortality data
If you actually read it…
>its findings suggest that the regular use of dietary supplements should not be recommended for the general U.S. population. Of course, this doesn’t rule out the possibility that certain subgroups of people, including perhaps those following certain special diets or with known nutritional deficiencies, may benefit.
That is only for frequent donors. People usually don't need them. Supplements do not work. https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/dont-waste-time-or-money-on-dietary-supplements.
Even from what you linked
>Americans spend billions per year on these products, **even though most people don’t need them.**
For something “supplements don’t work” … oh there is a subgroup that DOES need them.
The whole article talks about healthy people taking EXTRA supplements. Which is unnecessary and potentially harmful.
What it DOES NOT claim is that supplements as a whole “don’t work” especially for those are vitamin deficient.
I've literally gotten before and after blood tests to check vitamin levels and have seen my levels improve after taking supplements that the doctor recommended. It's not hard to verify that some supplements do work, you just have to get them from a reputable company and sometimes pair them with something else so your body absorbs them better.
Also, you can easily test it out yourself by taking a good fiber supplement.
That person referenced an article, that refers to a study, that looked just at supplement use in relation to MORTALITY data compared to those that didn’t use supplements.
That’s their great schtick that supplements “don’t work”.
Conveniently ignoring the multitude of data that exists on supplement use in those with vitamin deficiencies. Data on formulation absorption rate. Etc.
Their schtick is if you don’t end up living longer than the dude that doesn’t take supplements, screw your quality of life all that matters is mortality rate, then supplements don’t work.
Stay the fuck away from supplements. They do not work. The only ones supporting that shit are useless influencers selling that shit. Do not waste your money.
Which is not the same thing as a regulated economy.
Planned economies cut corners to achieve quotas they were meant to reach. Regulated capitalism maximizes profits with given boundary conditions.
I am living in Germany but I am working for a Japanese company. The Japanese are not really that different than everybody else. We have a saying in Germany, that everyone is just cooking with water, and that also goes for the Japanese.
When I was living and working in Japan I noticed they were always very strict at following the rules, almost to a fault. They wouldn’t question why they were following those rules. They would just do it because “that’s the way it’s done” not to rock the boat.
Although it may vary without different companies, particularly overseas, in 3 years I didn’t see any corner cutting. Japan is known to be quite a strict rules based culture.
Maybe they need to question why they are doing things more than just doing it though.
This is nuts. It absolutely needs to be the end of Kobayashi Seiyaku. They had one simple responsibility not to make things that kill people. And in emails, there was some evidence that they were aware if this issue. Right now they have a few commercials on TV apologizing for the inconvenience and announcing the recall. I don't think we will ever know the real number of deaths because a lot of resellers were selling these supplements in countries all over the world. In some countries, they may not make the connection between a death and taking this particular supplement.
”So sorry we inconvenienced you by murdering you to save our profits”
Insert South park meme. “We’re sorrry” 👉☺️👈
Thoughts and Prayers
Like the Kobayashi Maru it is a no-win scenario…
Until you reprogram the scenario to be fearful of THE Capt. Kirk.
Wasn’t Kobayashi Pharmaceutical the villain in Isle of Dogs too?
I'm really surprised this came out of Japan. I for sure thought we'd all get poisoned by all the Chinese supplements at some point. i figured theyd Just throw a little fentanly in everyone's multivitamin and boom no more american problem. Not like anyone tests these and they all probably come from like 3 Chinese factories. Or maybe it's more tested then I think?
That says more about you than about China or Japan. A huge percentage of the things we buy in the West (including some of the medicines that keep us healthy) come from China, yet cases of harm directly imputable to Chinese responsibility are extremely rare. Not sure what makes you think Japanese companies would have people's health in higher regard than Chinese ones.
Recall the 2008 scandal when a Chinese company put melamine in its baby formula to “bulk it out” a bit and children died?
Sure it hasn't or barely has happened, it just makes more sense for China to poison Americans intentionally than Japan. Not saying this company intentionally did that. Very impressive that China hasn't done so accidentally or even on purpose yet. Just seems like an obvious vector of attack considering the relationship between the us and China. But they probably don't really want to see us all die since ya know we buy all their stuff.
What do they gain by intentionally poisoning a few people lol? They'll just lose money in the longterm
I was with you on the first sentence (I'm mixed Japanese and they stress quality and pride in work) but then boy did that take a random racist conspiracy theory twist.
Lol what's racist or conspiracy about it? China produces most of our supplements and most of the fentanyl to mexican cartels comes from China. https://www.dea.gov/documents/2023/2023-10/2023-10-03/justice-department-announces-eight-indictments-against-china They kinda indirectly are poisoning the us with fentanyl anyways. Why not just skip the middle man at some point and just throw it in all the supplements. I don't hate Chinese people. I'm just aware of what's happening.
You think a highly scrutinized nanny state is more likely to be selling its own people poison than a country with a culture of unfettered consumerism?
Yes? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal It's not really about Nanny state, it's about how much corruption there is. And corruption can crop up anywhere. If it spreads, so does the danger to the average consumer.
Thank you, I was going to go in a ruff about this AND the heparin drug that was cut with something else that killed people that came from China. We have to this day been one of the leading exporters of baby formula to China because of what happened in 2008. We have stricter import guidelines on medicine because of the heparin situation.
There was the [TD glycerine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_cough_syrup) incident too.
sorry, where is the news about the Chinese throwing a little fentanyl in everyone's multivitamin? Typical American: When see bad news from the West, mention/fabricate China bad news first, then accuse Chinese about "Whataboutism"
China had a big scandal about contaminated baby formula a couple years back.
What? There is no news. That's pretty clear from my post that I believed this would happen from China, not Japan. Not that it actually had. They produce most of our supplements and do they even get tested? so by the numbers this would more likely happen from them, they also supply Mexico cartels with most of its fentanyl. they also (shock!) don't exactly see eye to eye with America and have been engaged in some form of conflict with usa for some time. also opium wars. Put that all together and I made an aside that China makes more sense for this news to come from then Japan. Nothing more. if you want to read into it more then that, that's cool. But there isn't more to it.
Typical again to blame your own problem with others. Assuming China is the enemy of West civilization, why only you guys get such a huge problem of fentanyl,not Japan who has the worst relationship with China or UK who once had the opium war with China? China has made death penalty to criminals who smuggle fentanyl to the US. However, the synthesis of fentanyl can be done through many different ways using legal materials, if they don't do the final synthesis part in China, it is difficult to regulate from the producer side. Your drug problem is definitely not just limited to fentanyl , the overdose deaths from meth or cocaine are increasing rapidly as well. That probably says your DEA doesn't do their job well so that you have become a lucrative & safe market for world durg dealers.
Well the drug problem in the us is complicated and there's plenty of blame to go around for everyone involved. I would say the freedom of the us probably has a part in it being a bigger problem here than in most places. Also the diversity of life and culture here compared to a place like Japan. Also the ease of access into the us from the border crossings it is easy to bring in illegal drugs unlike say Japan again. It is an easily exploited problem and an easy way to make money in America. China sees an opportunity and took it.
Sorry your bit of truth was downvoted so harshly. But this is Reddit not the real world. 🌍
[удалено]
Seiyaku = Phrmaceutical…
Kobayashi = Porcelain Edit. Its a Usual Suspects reference. Sigh.
Now that’s a deep cut I can get behind
More like Kobayashi Seppuku.
Supplements industry is overall extreamly shady as they are not regulated like pharma companies are and basically they can claim anything and put something else in their product and basically there's nothing stopping them. A quantitative review of NMR a popular and expensive health supplements shows that only 14% of brands contains what they claim. And a stunning 64% did not contain any trace of what they claim. The rest had less or far less. https://s23.q4cdn.com/937095816/files/doc_downloads/2021/Quantitative-Analysis-of-22-NMN-Consumer-Products-Oct-2021.pdf
If you haven't heard of them, ConsumerLab tests supplements. You have to be a member to read the full test results, but you can generally see their top recommendations for free. [ConsumerLab.com](http://www.ConsumerLab.com)
Looks like even top picks are paywalled. Could you give me maybe a preview of what the top ALA brands are?
Trust me, brands will put on their label they've been certified by third parties like consumer lab or UL without ever testing the product. How do I know? I design packaging and have had clients ask me to do all sorts of sketchy stuff and add all sorts of lies to packaging and advertising campaigns. Not just small companies either, fortune 500s too
That's why I don't trust the labeling. ConsumerLab isn't an endorsement, its a company that analyzes supplements and reports the results. I'm pretty sure ConsumerLab does not allow anybody to advertise their results as any kind of endorsement, similar to the way Consumer Reports does not allow manufacturers to advertise their recommendations. This is a source I use to at least have a little confidence that my vitamin supplements actually contain the amounts claimed on the labels.
Thank you for sharing this resource!
It doesn't look like the top recommendations are available without a subscription. I checked Magnesium, vitamin D and Fish Oil, none of them are available.
[This website](https://labdoor.com/rankings) also tests a variety of vitamins and lists their findings regarding accuracy.
The supplement industry is such a scam, the things they can get away with are ridiculous. People have no idea just how bad it is and just see it as a legitimate alternative to *actual* medicine.
The worst part is that there are some legitimate non-Rx supplements that can actually help to treat medical conditions but without regulation who knows if you'll get a real one. My rare nervous system damage syndromes have no FDA approved treatments so I'm on several different Rxs but they're not enough so I am also on Palmitoylethanolamide and R-Alpha Lipoic Acid which have been part of formal studies and are sometimes "prescribed" (it's non-Rx) by doctors but again it's entirely unregulated so it's this game of trying to find a brand that is legit but doesn't break the bank. When I'm already on so many treatments that can cost up to hundreds a month I can't really afford an extra $160+ a month on the highest reputation brand for supplements. They have definitely helped though!
Yeah everyone here is shitting on people who use supplements "instead of" medicine, but I use a supplement (n-acetylcysteine) that my psychiatrist told me to use. I also read dozens of peer-reviewed studies that show the effectiveness of said supplement. Not all supplements are homeopathic medicine.
Yeah the higher up comment was overly broad in framing supplements as "alternative medicine". Supplements are also things like vitamins. Research funding is also not infinite. There are a lot of substances out there that have not had enough targetted funding to clear it for specific medical purposes, but have fairly promising test data. So it ends up coming down to people choosing if they're okay with the risk of taking something that doesn't have larger scale and timeframe outcomes. The body building and fitness scene is full of substances like this. Many come and go as scams, while the ones that actually work tend to stick around, because you have people in these communities that get blood work to confirm changes. That said, yes the "homeopathic mom" scene is especially full of scams and huge unproven claims given to all kinds of substances without any proper data to back it up. That is absolutely stupid for sure.
Love, love, love NAC.
How often and how much do you take per day?
I take around 2000 mg every day.
I have very painful poly neuropathy in 80% of my body. Been taking ala for 4 years. It somehow helps a little. During a 3 month period when I was in and out of hospital I didn’t take it. I was in so much pain. So it does work.
Yeah I recently had to skip my supplements for a couple days while I had a stomach virus and my symptoms came back so bad. Now that I have been on them for a few days again it's starting to get better.
It doesn’t help my feet neuropathy
My feet are toast. It doesn’t help them much.
A friend of mine ended up into alternative and chinese traditional medicine (because her disease has too few useful treatments yet) - and one of the things her "Dr of Chinese Medicine" prescribed her came in a little box covered in nothing you could read unless you knew mandarin, and contained ten black lumps of coal-tar like looking substance that she had to chop up and mince and drink with water. She spent fifteen years exploring "treatments" like that, including "rectal ozone" treatments and "intravenous ozone injections". She credited her Dr. of Chinese Medicine with "curing her" (but she was never actually cured). She died of cancer three years ago. ( She did NOT even for a moment consult her "alternative medicine experts" when it came to cancer. Another interesting tidibit - her "famous brilliant" alternative medicine Dr that she spent ten grand a year getting consultations with for a decade? Forced into retirement around 2021 when he came out as wildly anti-vax and wildly covid conspiracy nutjob. )
>she spent ten grand a year That bugs me most I think, all these people are against scientifically proven medicine because its "big pharma" and yet shill out thousands for cooks and cranks like they are fighting the good fight. Im sorry for the loss of your friend.
The modern world under capitalism is insanely complex. Of course I support proven medicine over random bullshit, but it’s incredibly difficult to ascertain for the average person what’s actually going to help them and what isn’t. It’s wild that there’s tons of doctors that will listen to a few symptoms a patient claims and then instantly prescribe them powerful psychoactive drugs that are intended to completely change a person’s view of reality. Most doctors have been forced to limit patient interaction as much as possible so they can see more customers and maximize profits. I totally understand why some people become so disillusioned with the medical system in America that they put their faith in random bullshit instead of
I mean when you’re literally dying…
May I interest you in some Blue-green Algae????
I’d rather take my Soylent Green.
There’s a little bit of us in every bite.
I would make a comment about expensive healthcare is causing a substitute good effects for supplements but the bots will down vote ;)
you just made that comment moron
Yikes, that's terrifying! Guess I'll stick to eating my veggies and getting some fresh air instead.
It’s 2024 There is no “fresh air “ and hopefully you grow your own vegetables
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> Many people try to avoid "actual medicine" because of how often it can cause more harm than good and can even have side effects that destroy some peoples health. Correct. But here's the thing: any supplement that actually works *is medicine* and will have the same potential for side-effects. Many supplement manufacturers sidestep this reality by giving non-existent doses of the supplement.
I've noticed some American supplement/herbal medicine brands advertise on their packaging that they are "homeopathic", even though they are clearly not and have actual, specified amounts of said herb or supplement in the product. WTF? Is this because "homeopathic" has no legal meaning in the US or something? Is it used as a general word for "herbal" or "alternative" medicine? I found it baffling when I visited the US.
"Homeopathic", "herbal", and "alternative" all have no legal meaning in the US. Like food additives, supplements are barely regulated in America. And America de facto sets the global standards.
"The medicines doctors give you to control those things have caused so many severe health issues for people in my family. The side effects are so we couldn't even convince my elderly mother to keep taking hers. She would rather have died, than lived with the side effects of the medicines." Where did you get this crazy-ass theory?
Not if you do your research. When I seem to catch a cold, some Pau D’Arco and Selenium when taken early nips it in the bud for me. And the whole reason I even know about it is because in the past I managed to cure some nasty stuff that doctors failed to properly diagnose with it. They *can* be legitimate alternative to actual medicine because some supplements like the ones I mentioned above have a more general field of application and relatively harmless compared to what the doctor might prescribe you. Heck you could die from a pack of eggs in a supermarket, this is not a reason to call the entire industry a scam because of a few bad eggs.
And now after the fall the Chevron deference it's going to get a whole lot worse.
"Looks like things are going from bad to worse, huh? Stay safe out there!"
Than the FDA already saying that it can't find a plausible reading to call supplements medications? People like to pretend Chevron deference was about experts saying what is and isn't dangerous, but it was really about lawyers (experts or a sort, I guess) seeking how far they could stretch beyond the obvious reading of the law.
The FDA would love to regulate supplements, they are not allowed to. Congress has passed laws limiting their scope and protecting the supplement industry. Thanks in large part to the disgusting retired Utah senator Orrin Hatch
There is nothing obvious about a vague law other than it’s initial intent. Are the laws good enough to be perfect in application at every instance? No. But (edit: from my view,) replacing bad with worse (throwing the baby out with the bath water) has always been a common goal of the red team.
This concern is overblown which is typical of reddit. While the ruling removed the mandatory deferral to agency interpretations of Federal Laws it does not forbid a court from still doing so. Also consider that states do not operate this way and they do a fine job of reigning in bad actors all the time. Nothing in this ruling invalidates the expertise of agencies and any proceeding in Federal Court will bring their concerns to light for all to see which leads to... Plus there is another side to all of this. Getting to Federal court does not mean the person or company is getting away with it. Many will seek to avoid this level of public scrutiny as a lot of the administrative rulings by agencies are generally not interesting enough to reach the attention of the public. However once you are in Federal Court the media tends to notice and if there is a public harm element to the story we are off to the races. Finally, many agencies like the FDA do not need a legal proceeding to act. Regulations permit them to recall products and companies voluntarily do this all the time. The last thing most companies want is the public perception they are resisting the FDA while people are being harmed.
But that ignores the central issue’s Thai was a massive power grab away from regulators they are experts in the field and towards judges who rarely if ever have any expertise or knowledge in these fields. Capture the judiciary, talke away the power to regulate, then deny all claims in the courts. This is the express plan of the federalist society/2025 types.
Regulations come from the Executive Branch, you’re okay with the unelected having that power?
They don’t. The power comes from the enabling legislation. The experts are the ones who enact that will using their technical expertise.
The people these companies are scamming from are the same people who thought the FDA was pushing conspiracies during COVID about “non approved” treatments. They don’t care.
Why isn't there some company which periodically tests supplements in labs and gives ratings? I'd pay good money for such a service
There is: ConsumerLab. Excellent resource.
Not if you have to pay for it....information like that should be free, instead of behind a paywall to see whats good or bad..
Then start a free website and pay for the testing yourself? Be the solution you want to see.
Is there not any sort of government agency that can test products in the US? That can prosecute companies which lie about the content of their products, especially if they harm consumers? As a non American, I am somewhat confused. Surely, whatever the product - pharmaceutical, herbal, homeopathic, food supplement, food, whatever - if they mislead consumers as to the contents, and/or the results of consuming the product, they will be prosecuted? It shouldn't be on the consumers to sue the company AFTER they've been harmed or misled, surely?
The supplement industry has gotten laws passed limiting the scope of regulatory agencies. The FDA is powerless for the most part when it comes to anything classified as a supplement, and those labeled that way can literally put whatever they want in their product with no oversight. On the contrary, the FDA is very good at regulating the pharmaceutical industry and you can trust those product have the safety, purity, potency, and efficacy that is claimed.
There is, but also be aware brands will say they've been certified by a third party when they haven't been
Man, it would seem that that is a great way to get sued, but I guess with the sheer number of supplement companies and some being pretty small, they probably know that they will get a “cease and desist” or some kind of warning before any real action is taken. And so they just stick it on Willy-nilly until they actually get caught.
You can thank Orrin Hatch, Utah, and Young Living for the fact that the FDA can’t regulate most of that industry.
This is written by a supplement company as well (Truniagin). How do we know if they are reliable as well? Whole industry yes a bit sus.
They need a wholesome dogfood brand type option where there's literal particle analysis for each bottle and they'd make bank.
It's not even regulated as food as they also have to tell you what they put in, it should be logical that is the minimum requirement of at least the things you put inside your body.
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It's on page 4 of the report
This is why I have been trying to track down cGMP produced supplements but it's hard to figure out which companies are actually cGMP or just say they are following GMP guidelines.
Following your response, I saw that "Current Good Manufacturing Process" certificates are used for international sale. American supplements cannot "grow" their brand to ship globally unless they meet standards of the market nations.
Yes. It's the same rule pharmaceutical companies follow. It also ensures that products are tested and are what they are susposed to be.
These supplements were only sold in China and Japan. The supplement market in China is really crazy, people love their supplements and there are all sorts of black market supplements people take. My kids babysitter is from China and her mom visited her in the US for a few months and every day she’d go to Costco and buy hundreds of supplements and then sell them on instagram and send them to China (probably illegal). She made thousands and thousands of dollars in the few months she was here. The US supplements apparently go for $$$ over there because they believe they’re highly regulated (jokes on them…).
To be fair, given what passes as supplements in China, I’d rather have one from the US that just doesn’t work. Imagine having to eat shriveled goat penis everyday just for nothing!
Goat penis wont kill you something laced with lead or mercury ore is more problematic, those are a thing too. In the US the allowed limit of lead is often exceeded, but it’s never just straight up an ingredient.
Nothing is stopping American supplement makers from putting whatever they want in their product. There’s no reason they would be any safer than anything from China.
Haha this is a very good point.
> Imagine having to eat shriveled goat penis everyday just for nothing! Eh, I guess it would depend on [how it's cooked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVjkMVUZF38#t=13m27s). Like Rocky Mountain Oysters.
That's wild!
> The US supplements apparently go for $$$ over there because they believe they’re highly regulated (jokes on them…). Lol.
I’m in Canada where natural products are regulated. This gives me an idea…
Costco stuff is good stuff. If even Kirkland can’t be trusted then idk who you can trust. 🤷
So… US supplements are highly regulate… when compared to other markets so she wasn’t totally wrong
Aahh the completely unregulated world of "supplements". They are "natural" though, so they've got to be good for you.
Yep, As natural as cyanide and asbestos
Don't worry, everything else is about to get completely unregulated!
Radiation is natural, has to be healthy. We don’t even need a meter to measure over 3.6 roentgen.
I may be mistaken but I think a Japanese company made a bad batch of tryptophan back in the 1980s that resulted in a full import ban until like 2005. To this day I never see tryptophan on the shelves in my pharmacy
5-Htp is pretty common, likely replaced it
Tryptophan is still sold. Even in Walgreens. Just less common.
Can anyone explain what is the cause of death?
The cause of death seems to be kidney failure, specifically a toxic compound in the supplement damaging the proximal tubules. Based on animal studies, the compound is suspected to be puberulic acid. This "red yeast rice" supplement involves fermenting rice with the mold Monascus purpureus, which produces lovastatin, the same compound as Merck's statin drug Mevacor. It is suspected that contamination by other strains of mold in that fermentation produced the puberulic acid.
Most of the time the yeast doesn’t produce anything nasty. But under certain circumstances it decides to declare war and starts producing bio toxins.
My best friend owns a small nutritional supplement factory in China, while she strives really hard to produce safe, accurate, and reliable products of the highest quality, the stories she shares about the competition and potential customers (retailers) are super disturbing. Cynicism, deceit, and greed prevails on both sides. If you consume nutritional supplements, you should expect you’re being deliberately lied to about basically everything on the label. Good companies exist, but they are rare.
My mom got into supplements when she was older and put a lot of research in finding good sources for them because apparently which country you source certain herbs/spices from is important because some countries like India and China are well known for having heavy metal contaminants. The main one she was looking for was tumeric.
Where did she end up getting turmeric from?
She got friendly with the local health food and supplement store owner and they would help her source things. She ended up having to buy certain things in bulk a few times.
This is really bad.
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It wasn’t. It was produced by another type of mould that contaminated their production processes.
There are a lot of people spreading misinformation about supplements. Supplements will not grant you immortality. Supplements will not protect against heart disease or cancer.
This is absolutely crazy. 80 deaths? Wowzers.
I used to take some red yeast rice. I really should just ditch supplements due to lack of regulation mostly everywhere it seems.
I used to be a believer in taking extra supplements until I found out a)excess is harmful, b)tumors LOVE extra vitamins and c)what you buy in supplement packages most likely doesn’t even contain any!
If it isn’t eliminated in your urine, excess can be harmful for certain vitamins. Overall your body is pretty good at regulating and maintaining itself. Do you have any sources for B, I’d love to check that out
Yeah B is a big claim there man. I second the request for sources
red yeast rice
Anyone know if Nature’s Way is trusted enough?
I knew the supplement industry was shady, but how about whey protein powder and creatine in Japan? I’ve been buying whatever’s on sale, but maybe I should be a little more selective…
That story certainly explains why Asian tourists love buying supplements in our pharmacy and ask "is good quality right?"
Paraquat Murders Redux incoming shortly.
Supplements are not tested to be effective. There is no credible evidence that they work as claimed. The best supporters can do is offer anecdotes. Anecdotes are not substitutes for double blind studies.
Oh this one is extremely effective. Death is an off label outcome though.
Death is one result they do not advertise.
Vitamin supplement availability is important for the comparatively "small" group that actually needs them, e.g. the elderly and patients on heavily restricted diets. It's sort of like gluten free. The vast majority of people who eat gluten free products do not need to do so, but the larger market means that the products are more widely available for the people who do need them.
Most do not need them. The small group of people who need them can take them with the recommendation of a doctor.
Precisely. That means the products need to be widely available.
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They do not work. https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2019/04/16/study-finds-no-benefit-for-dietary-supplements/.
Depends on what you think (or rather label) is a supplement, protein powder and creatine are supplements, by definition, and they do indeed work, very well actually. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10079511/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10079511/) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407788/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407788/)
This is ridiculous. This is like saying all drugs cause death or drugs don’t work. There are hundreds of different supplements ranging from vitamins, minerals, herbs, etc. Vitamin c supplement will prevent and treat scurvy but does not significantly reduce cancer. St Johns Wort in several systematic reviews shows efficacy for mild and moderate depression, and compared to antidepressant drugs it has less side effects. But it does not work for bipolar. Taking vitamins does not make you live longer and taking too much will shorten your life. Also adulterate products is a big concern. It is complicate subject that you can not just say it works or doesn’t.
>Supplements are not tested to be effective. **There is no credible evidence that they work as claimed.** The best supporters can do is offer anecdotes. Anecdotes are not substitutes for double blind studies. >They do not work. That’s…not what your article says. The study referenced was looking specifically at mortality data. >had about the same risk of dying >the mortality benefits >mortality data If you actually read it… >its findings suggest that the regular use of dietary supplements should not be recommended for the general U.S. population. Of course, this doesn’t rule out the possibility that certain subgroups of people, including perhaps those following certain special diets or with known nutritional deficiencies, may benefit.
Then please explain why they sometimes hand out Iron supplements at the blood donation facility.
That is only for frequent donors. People usually don't need them. Supplements do not work. https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/dont-waste-time-or-money-on-dietary-supplements.
Even from what you linked >Americans spend billions per year on these products, **even though most people don’t need them.** For something “supplements don’t work” … oh there is a subgroup that DOES need them. The whole article talks about healthy people taking EXTRA supplements. Which is unnecessary and potentially harmful. What it DOES NOT claim is that supplements as a whole “don’t work” especially for those are vitamin deficient.
I've literally gotten before and after blood tests to check vitamin levels and have seen my levels improve after taking supplements that the doctor recommended. It's not hard to verify that some supplements do work, you just have to get them from a reputable company and sometimes pair them with something else so your body absorbs them better. Also, you can easily test it out yourself by taking a good fiber supplement.
That person referenced an article, that refers to a study, that looked just at supplement use in relation to MORTALITY data compared to those that didn’t use supplements. That’s their great schtick that supplements “don’t work”. Conveniently ignoring the multitude of data that exists on supplement use in those with vitamin deficiencies. Data on formulation absorption rate. Etc. Their schtick is if you don’t end up living longer than the dude that doesn’t take supplements, screw your quality of life all that matters is mortality rate, then supplements don’t work.
Stay the fuck away from supplements. They do not work. The only ones supporting that shit are useless influencers selling that shit. Do not waste your money.
The supplement industry in general is a litmus test for how fucked we are in the US after the recent Chevron decision by SCOTUS
Best thing to ever happen to us
I guess we'll find out
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May I present to you, every other Country in the world!
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It's both.
It’s called capitalism. We need endless checks to share holders sooooo….
No. Cutting corners and cheating is more evident in planned economies
Which is not the same thing as a regulated economy. Planned economies cut corners to achieve quotas they were meant to reach. Regulated capitalism maximizes profits with given boundary conditions.
Every market based economy in the world is regulated. But I agree the US could do more on that
Watch me replace Japan with India and get upvoted instead by the same neckbeards downvoted you.
No it’s not.
Am working for a Japanese company and cutting corners is what they do… and apologize when stuff breaks, rinse and repeat 🙄
Are you living in Japan? It looks like you are working as a programmer in Germany?
I am living in Germany but I am working for a Japanese company. The Japanese are not really that different than everybody else. We have a saying in Germany, that everyone is just cooking with water, and that also goes for the Japanese.
When I was living and working in Japan I noticed they were always very strict at following the rules, almost to a fault. They wouldn’t question why they were following those rules. They would just do it because “that’s the way it’s done” not to rock the boat. Although it may vary without different companies, particularly overseas, in 3 years I didn’t see any corner cutting. Japan is known to be quite a strict rules based culture. Maybe they need to question why they are doing things more than just doing it though.
Change the country to China, your vote counts will go in the opposite direction.
Supplements will not protect you. https://www.verywellhealth.com/vitamin-mineral-supplements-waste-money-5496909.
Are you a man? Women tend to be low in iron due to their periods so supplements do work. I've had them prescribed to me by the doctor 💊
Do not waste your money. https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2022/06/vitamins-supplements-are-a-waste-of-money-for-most-americans/.