They did. The court ruling said that as long as they haven't been drafted and in lack of other legislation, they cannot receive funding at all from the government. The average yeshiva student is still getting the same amount of money right now because they all raised more through private donations coming particularly from the Haredim in the United States.
Only the Ultra-orthodox get a stipend for every child they have, and they usually have between 4 and even up to 20 in some rare cases.
They get budget from the Gov to build schools that are seperate from the ministry of education where they don't have to teach Math or Science, only Torah and religious studies. They also used to get budget to build Yeshivot which are like religious study colleges where they send their 18+ year olds instead of letting them go to work or enlist like all the other yound adults.
The ultra orthodox used to also have a draft exemption if they were a part of a Yeshiva until they are 25 years old (used to be 35 a few years back btw) and that means they are not allowed to even get a job until age 25.
I never understood why Israel government does it. Like I understand it for short term, if you want high religiosity to some extend to have these kind of people support you, to "preseve" Judaism.
But long term? They are growing religious extremists who aren't interested in contributing to society, in many ways leech out of it.
And now maybe the government will get reality check of what they have been nurturing.
If there is something else going on let me know. Even though my family lives in Israel I actually don't know that many things about it, they just say "nobody likes them" lol.
Thing is,
They don't have to work and they like to keep it that way. Whenever there are elections, be it for the Gov or for local authorities, they always go out to vote in much higher percentages than seculars.
The politicians know that if they give them favour they will get easy votes.
That's one of the reasons the UO parties have 7 mandates while for example the arab parties have 5, even though there are about 2 mil arab israelis and yet only about 1.3 mil UO.
Yeah it's all politics.
Haredim are quite non ideological, their priorities are basically "give us our money and let our people study Torah in peace and we'll vote with you on anything". Which made them indispensable political partners - they're basically easy guaranteed votes for whatever you want, as long as you pay their sector and don't touch some very specific religious subjects (mostly about work/public transport on Shabbat, kosher food, etc). It's not about right/left - Oslo accords passed exclusively thanks to them, for example.
They've been a part of almost every coalition in Israel's history - right or left wing. Their general indifference and ability to join either political side, meant they often became the "kingmakers" of choosing who gets to be PM. Which created a political "bidding war" for their "services" - basically who can bribe them with more money and better policies. It was always seen as a "small price to pay" for winning the election, and both right and left parties went along and paid it. And so it went on, and slowly a few hundred military exemptions became complete exemptions for ALL of them.
In recent years, Bibi has taken it to the extreme - giving them quite insane fundings and almost everything they desire to buy their loyalty. The left wing was basically outbid, and many leftists/centerists have turned against this arrangement, which made Haredim "officially" a part of the right wing faction, but it wasn't always like this.
> I never understood why Israel government does it.
It was a trap the Israeli government fell into early on in its history. The ultra-orthadox community was very small originally when Israel was founded. But the government needed their vote at times, so they felt it was no big deal to throw some bones at this tiny minority group.
Decades later, that tiny minority group isn't so tiny anymore due to their rather insane reproductive practices, and whoever is prime minister at the time, isn't willing to suffer the potential political blows they would receive, stripping benefits from a now large voting bloc.
The policy was started largely because The Holocaust nearly wiped out so many of their religious scholars. However, that was far enough in the past to review that policy today.
I would also assume that % of non religious Jews have risen, and probably if you exclude orthodox average Israeli, even religious one, has less religiosity than back in a day.
So it probably feels more weird to support these people.
It started as a way to kick a political problem down the road when Israel was still getting set up, and there was multiple huge divisions.
This was a quick way to paper over what was then a very small problem. Now that road has been walked, and the problem has grown in multiple different ways.
If the young haredi aren't educated enough to function in mainstream society, it keeps them in the community and dependent on the haredi leadership...who get a generous cut of their benefits.
Many haredi communities operate like exploitative cults. It's a bad situation.
The IDF ran a pilot program for haredi recruits a few years ago and found they needed months of remedial education, as well as training on how to function outside their ulta-orthodox bubble, especially in how to deal with women.
They're idiots. They can do very basic arithmetic and that's about it. I know a guy that was on the fringes of these types of groups that finished high school with a barely functional math capacity.
It happened like this: "You are saying we have to do these things, and you are wrong, therefore EVERYTHING you mandate must be wrong", and then they threw out anything like it and turtled down.
>Only the Ultra-orthodox get a stipend for every child they have,
This is incorrect. Everyone is entitled to the child stipend.
They do get other forms of support unique to them.
Studying Torah and religious studies? Might as well study Harry Potter. Maths and science hold the key to the future, if Israel is to have one it will be because they have properly educated the population.
Just them, and everyone but them is frustrated and annoyed and wants them to get up and contribute to society already. This draft law is a big move in the right direction. You can't expect a country to wait on you hand and foot and refuse to contribute without repercussions
Religious exemptions for military service are the most bullshit thing ever. If you have compulsory service none of the exceptions should ever be for anything voluntary.
There should be an alternative civil service for everyone who is a pacifist, be it for religious, political or moral reasons.
At least in peace time. When your country is under attack, usually everyone has to do their part and do what is needed. No one should be under the illusion that avoiding military services would help you avoiding drafting in case of war. The only difference is how much training you've got prior.
That already exists, the army is extremely happy to let pacifists go work at the fire service or paramedics.
The Haredim still object to it because it's not Torah study. They believe anyone not studying Torah isn't fulfilling their true potential. The only thing that matters in their view is Torah study, everything else is irrelevant.
Why do you have to be a religious zealot to get an exemption for moral reasons? I don’t want to kill anyone either but they’d sure as shit draft me if I were a citizen.
They attacked a police precinct in Brooklyn in the 1970s.
[70 people were hurt, 62 were police. ](https://www.nytimes.com/1978/12/03/archives/70-are-hurt-including-62-officers-as-hasidim-storm-a-police-station.html)
One guy only was arrested and the charges were dropped when the media stopped paying attention.
Maybe I'm ignorant here but isn't that the whole origin of the Jewish religion?
It's a religion that developed in a late bronze age pastoral society where the priesthood could live in the temple enjoying the benefits of everyone's labour (free meat basically) while the shepherds had a life of hardship in the fields...
The whole Torah is almost a diary of Yahweh punishing the Israelites when they don't continue to offer their animal sacrifices - sounds like the ultimate divine protection racket imo.
> Maybe I'm ignorant here but isn't that the whole origin of the ~~Jewish~~ religion?
No need to even specify any religion, but I'd wager it's a lot more rampant in christianity/islam but my knowledge of judaism is pretty limited.
Also seems fair to say some specific branches of religions take it much further IE mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, reading up on how mormons run Utah is pretty disturbing and it really does feel like a huge racket and closer to the mafia than a religion.
That's not the ultra-orthodox, that's the national religious bloc. They are both orthodox, but they are very distinct groups. Very common for people to get them mixed up. The ultra-orthodox only really live in two settlements, Beitar Illit and Kiriyat Sefer and they only moved there because of government encouragement, not for ideological reasons.
That's not true, almost none of this stream of Ultra Orthodox live in settlements. They are what you could consider apathetic to zionism as a project, their interests are purely material.
Some of them actually send stones... By throwing them on the soldiers that (sometimes) stop them from attacking Palestinians in the West Bank and destroying their possessions; or kick them out from their illegal outposts they regularly establish.
The exception was given early on when there were literally 400 yeshiva students. The seculars assumed the ultra-Orthodox would disappear sooner or later and the ultra-Orthodox assumed the state wouldn't make it and the seculars would leave. They were both wrong, but the seculars were wronger.
It's more the fact that they have a LOT of kids. They don't get many converts at all, but people who are raised Haredi don't tend to leave it either. Kind of like the Amish in the US. (Except the Amish work hard and support themselves.)
Another differentiation is that the Amish aren't constantly rattling the war saber. It's one thing to not want to be a part of a force of violence, it's another to tell other people they need to fight a group of people while "I'm going to read this really old document and think about you all."
Yeah, but the lessons of the last two drafts is that the Draft sucks at producing a fighting force. In the modern military, the only chance the military would request a draft is in response to an existential threat to the US.
Edit: The united states, not isis lol
>In the modern military, the only chance the military would request a draft is in response to an existential threat to the IS.
I really doubt we'd ever reinstate the draft just to save ISIS.
In practice refusing to register with the draft is not punished.
Also the Amish don't interact with any of the benefit systems that compel men to register. The soft power ways to force men to enlist don't matter to them.
They're are no criminal punishments but you would be refused many benefits of the state like federal student loans and grants if you refused to sign up for the draft.
Yup. And this is the ultimate sticking point for ordinary Israelis.
These guys cause a lot of the problems but aren’t responsible to help when their pot stirring causes open conflict.
Off-topic, but: Jesus fucking Christ, those sketches are the single best depiction of what it feels like to be in an emotionally abusive relationship I've seen in my life. Those weren't "comedy" sketches, they were fucking short horror movies.
If you ever find yourself in a relationship with a Meegan, run, don't walk, as far and fast away as possible. If they try to manipulate you into staying, don't engage with their arguments, don't try to reason with them, they'll just twist your words into a pretzel. Just get your shit and go. And do it fast, because that kind of person *will* escalate to physical abuse without a shred of remorse. (Mainly because they're incapable of feeling remorse.)
That’s true, but the reason that their numbers exploded was because ultra-Orthodox Jews (like a lot of religious conservatives) tend to marry young and have large families
It wasn't originally a blanket exemption - 400 was the annual quota for exemptions, regardless of the size of the UO population. Until Begin canceled the quota in 1977 to gain their political support.
When the stated war goal of every side you fight against is the total destruction of your nation and people then there are no conscientious objectors, just cowards.
And they say this explicitly, they're quite insulting to secular Israelis, because they believe Israeli only exists because of their prayer.
There's entitlement, then there's proper mental illness.
It's stayed in place because the ruling coalitions over the years have needed the Orthodox to be able to form a government. To avoid an Orthodox revolt, they've maintained massive carve outs for the Orthodox \(not just in military service\).
Unfortunately, they take the "go forth and multiply" really seriously and breed like fucking rabbits. Then they raise their kids to marry early and fuck like rabbits with men studying Torah and women to take care of the household and keep fucking. 2 people can produce 100 in 2 or 3 generations. Obviously, really unsustainable especially in a very small country like Israel.
> Where do they get their money to survive? The Israeli government can't be subsidizing that unsustainable lifestyle. Right? Right??
They get UBI, essentially.
Living as a settler in the West Bank is highly subsidized. Also, these folks are supported by others, sometimes going door to door asking for money so they can focus on their studies for the good of everyone. Too busy working for a living and not able to constantly study Torah? No problem, give me and my family some cash and I'll perform blessings for you and your family. It's like a 18X mitzvah.
There used to only be a few hundred of them. Hundreds of couples having an *average* of six to seven kids over the course of several generations…it’s now in the tens of thousands.
Yet another case of the older generation ruining shit.
"Young people these days have no drive! Back in my day all we did was *checks notes* make children and take government handouts!"
/s
Pretty much when they came up with the rule they didn't constitute a large percentage of the Israeli population and the alternative to being drafted was spending 8 years in the yeshuve. Basically an ultra religious Bible college. Only the most dedicated would take that way because of how long it takes. Now that the ultra religious are a larger part of the country the mostly secular left that has been fighting Israel's wars got tired of the handouts.
You also have to understand that these people literally just study Torah and Talmud every day, subsidized by donors, and until earlier this year, many military-aged men received government subsidies. So people were angry that they were getting paid by a government (I.e. it’s people) that they refused to stand up for. Add to that the frustration with the Hasidic’s disproportionate say in government affairs with Bibi’s coalition…..and you’ve got where things are today.
I can tell you the effect as I see it. I'm super fucking goy, but my wife's fam is orthodox and they have a baker's dozen rabbis in New York and Israel. Basically, to hear these guys talk, they're the heart and soul of Israel and know everything. Everything. And the country exists to support and protect them. Frankly, looks like a grift to me. Doesn't help that they're dicks.
God fucking damn it, they are literally the biggest crybaby. They expect to live without working or doing anything actually productive for society and now they get one thing they have to do and are throwing a tamper tantrum
They're the fucking worst. Had an Israeli GF who accidentally drove into a Hasidic neighborhood and they attacked her, tried to pull her out of the car. All because she was a woman driver.
The Hasidic community in New York is the same. They don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves and they treat anyone on their turf like they are some gang, meanwhile escaping all accountability for their actions.
Was it a Hasidic community who built tunnels under New York so they could ignore covid regs because there religious practices were more important than the lives of those in the wider community?
Amazing how selfish "religious" people can be
In NYC they used to have the Mitzvah Mobiles (now they’re called Mitzvah tanks). They would go up to women who looked Jewish and would say, “Why are you wearing makeup and miniskirts? This is not who you are. You should be married to a Jewish man and bring your children up to be proud Jews.” They soon learned - back in the 1970s - not to do that to my sister in law. They would jump off the sidewalk when she walked past them applying lipstick saying, “You have something to say to me? Huh?” It was the 1970s when the women’s movement was … radical. They were big fat men and she was about 90lbs. She’d bust their balls every time. They did not mess with her.
I bet they'd be right at home with the Iranian or Saudi morality police, probably even armed with the same BOLO alerts and diagrams (though the Saudi ones have apparently been tempered in the past few years)
That was never their issue. They’re not pacifists. They just believe that their prayers are more effective in securing Israel’s future — and it’s an easy cop out for them to also claim that it’s not meant to work for their own causes, but all of Israel’s collectively, while still totally missing the point.
If they truly believed that, they wouldnt attack the Israeli government. They would just pray hard as it is a more effective method to change government's opinion.
Again: they can’t pray for just themselves, they can only pray for Israel as a whole. It’s this bullshit state of mind where “our wish will only come true if everybody believes in it” kid theater bullshit becomes a reality for these people.
Since their prayers are so effective at getting god to do whatever is in the best interest of all of Israel, then unless they have been slacking and not praying hard enough, them being drafted is god working in mysterious ways to answer their prayers and make Israel better.
No. Their belief says that God cannot change the heart of other Jews, no matter how much they pray. The idea is that they must convince their brothers the old fashioned way. I mean violence. The old fashioned way is violence.
Its Okay, its in Israel's interest that they are not getting drafted, they can pray for it. Or if its not in Israel's interest they avoid the draft, then, well, they should get drafted.
A part of their belief says Jews have free will, and must voluntarily agree to this scheme, but it won’t work so long as not everybody is on board. They can’t pray for something that’s in Israel’s interest if it involves affecting the wills of other Jews through prayer — hence violence against the government.
Since no group of people has ever fully agreed with each other, this is an admission that it is impossible for their prayers to ever work, unless almost everyone else is dead...
For example: they're not allowed to press buttons to operate an elevator on the Sabbath (Saturday). Why? Making the elevator go is considered work, and therefore would break the Sabbath. Someone at some point has determined, however, that if they just make the elevator run through all of the floors automatically for the whole of the Sabbath but ahead of it beginning, nobody would have to press any button.
The result is a less useful, more wasteful elevator.
Not only does it defeat the point of not having anyone "do work", it also ends up wasting more energy. They interpret the button press as the work being done. That's how litigious they get.
I know they were never pacifists, never claimed they were. I was saying their violent actions show that their issue is not with the violent aspect of military service. Then I pointed out that they are crybabies because what they are doing throwing a tantrum. Such seems to be a common cultural practice throughout religious communities in the Middle East. It’s something they can bond and find common ground with many religious Muslim communities maybe.
>Protests in Jerusalem against the drafting of ultra-Orthodox Jews into the Israeli military turned violent on Sunday, with demonstrators attacking both law enforcement officers and a minister’s car, according to local police.
It is rather ironic that the ultra-orthodox Jews are protesting their inclusion into the military draft when it is their extreme beliefs that help lead Israel to the situation that it is in today where it needs the military more than ever...
They're happy to steal land that isn't theirs, send women to war then spit on them when they come home because they're not in the kitchen and send their brothers to fight in their stead so the land they so covet is easier to steal.
Fuck em.
Probably the worst kind of Israeli citizens. Happy to reap the benefits of the ultra right government such as establishing illegal settlements, but not when actually asked to step up themselves.
Consistently at my job (at a zoo) it’s the Hasidics who have a blatant disregard for our rules and often violate multiple rules at a time and continue to do so even after being told off. They really just don’t give a shit about anything but themselves
I consider ultra-orthodox Jewish an equivalent of Muslim zealots. Different belief in religion but both fanatical and will do harm to others because they believe they are in the right in the eyes of god.
Those protestors should be arrested and sent to military boot camp pronto but not assigned to combat battalion as they are bound to turn it against their compatriot if given an chance.
I do think the idea of having them in the military is a bit worrying tho. The chances they do some fuck shit to suvilians for some holy war bullshit is exponentially higher then a normal soldier.
These assholes are the original "thoughts and prayers" douchebags. They have the stuck-in-the past part of the Amish without any of the hard work aspect, the religious insanity of evangelicals, and the cultyness of Branch Davidians. And they are terrible clients (and I am jewish, so I can't imagine how they treat non jews).
I don’t have much sympathy for them; they bitch and moan and want to be catered to but contribute nothing to the welfare of others-just like conservatives the world over
Ah yes, "My imaginary friend said I'm a chosen one and you're shit." Can we stop pretending these people are anything but dangerous idiots at this point?
>Rioters threw stones at police officers and the car of Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf as he returned to his house, according to an Israeli police spokesperson. Protesters also set trash cans and the road on fire, blocking the highway.
Thus proving that the exemption is not valid if it is based on their unwillingness to fight.
More generally though I am concerned that these nutters will have to be thrown out of military service (or put in jail) at a much larger rate than the rest of the population since their self-righteous self image makes them much more likely to commit crimes against prisoners.
These morons make me ashamed to be Jewish.
It’s like that preacher scene. Why are the loudest voices of a group crying for privilege or putting down others always the worst examples of it?
Not just in Israel are the ultra-Orthodox on the public dole. But very much so in the United States. Lakewood, New Jersey being just one example where welfare fraud by the ultra-orthodox occurs.
>Rioters threw stones at police officers and the car of Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf as he returned to his house, according to an Israeli police spokesperson. Protesters also set trash cans and the road on fire, blocking the highway.
Guessing the Israeli forces must've opened fire with live rounds in response, which I've heard is justified in such scenarios. Right?
Considering that (as a political base) they've been the biggest hindrence to peace (prior to October 6) , they probably should be subject to the same service requirements as the majority of Israeli citizens.
What petulant little shits. These whoresons wont for war and death but not to be a part of it.
Let their service have latrine duty as the most pleasant.
"Since you're throwing rocks, it's clear that you see the value in fighting for what's important. That's why we're giving you free military training: so you'll know how to do violence properly, when it's time to fight for what's important."
> Rioters threw stones at police officers and the car of Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf as he returned to his house, according to an Israeli police spokesperson. Protesters also set trash cans and the road on fire, blocking the highway.
Threw stones? In the West Bank that will get a Palestinian shot. Wonder what happened to these protesters. Are they labeled as terrorists and shot down too?
Now take away their government stipend as well.
They did. The court ruling said that as long as they haven't been drafted and in lack of other legislation, they cannot receive funding at all from the government. The average yeshiva student is still getting the same amount of money right now because they all raised more through private donations coming particularly from the Haredim in the United States.
Wait...do all Jews in Israel get this or just hisidics?
Only the Ultra-orthodox get a stipend for every child they have, and they usually have between 4 and even up to 20 in some rare cases. They get budget from the Gov to build schools that are seperate from the ministry of education where they don't have to teach Math or Science, only Torah and religious studies. They also used to get budget to build Yeshivot which are like religious study colleges where they send their 18+ year olds instead of letting them go to work or enlist like all the other yound adults. The ultra orthodox used to also have a draft exemption if they were a part of a Yeshiva until they are 25 years old (used to be 35 a few years back btw) and that means they are not allowed to even get a job until age 25.
I never understood why Israel government does it. Like I understand it for short term, if you want high religiosity to some extend to have these kind of people support you, to "preseve" Judaism. But long term? They are growing religious extremists who aren't interested in contributing to society, in many ways leech out of it. And now maybe the government will get reality check of what they have been nurturing. If there is something else going on let me know. Even though my family lives in Israel I actually don't know that many things about it, they just say "nobody likes them" lol.
Thing is, They don't have to work and they like to keep it that way. Whenever there are elections, be it for the Gov or for local authorities, they always go out to vote in much higher percentages than seculars. The politicians know that if they give them favour they will get easy votes. That's one of the reasons the UO parties have 7 mandates while for example the arab parties have 5, even though there are about 2 mil arab israelis and yet only about 1.3 mil UO.
Yeah it's all politics. Haredim are quite non ideological, their priorities are basically "give us our money and let our people study Torah in peace and we'll vote with you on anything". Which made them indispensable political partners - they're basically easy guaranteed votes for whatever you want, as long as you pay their sector and don't touch some very specific religious subjects (mostly about work/public transport on Shabbat, kosher food, etc). It's not about right/left - Oslo accords passed exclusively thanks to them, for example. They've been a part of almost every coalition in Israel's history - right or left wing. Their general indifference and ability to join either political side, meant they often became the "kingmakers" of choosing who gets to be PM. Which created a political "bidding war" for their "services" - basically who can bribe them with more money and better policies. It was always seen as a "small price to pay" for winning the election, and both right and left parties went along and paid it. And so it went on, and slowly a few hundred military exemptions became complete exemptions for ALL of them. In recent years, Bibi has taken it to the extreme - giving them quite insane fundings and almost everything they desire to buy their loyalty. The left wing was basically outbid, and many leftists/centerists have turned against this arrangement, which made Haredim "officially" a part of the right wing faction, but it wasn't always like this.
> I never understood why Israel government does it. It was a trap the Israeli government fell into early on in its history. The ultra-orthadox community was very small originally when Israel was founded. But the government needed their vote at times, so they felt it was no big deal to throw some bones at this tiny minority group. Decades later, that tiny minority group isn't so tiny anymore due to their rather insane reproductive practices, and whoever is prime minister at the time, isn't willing to suffer the potential political blows they would receive, stripping benefits from a now large voting bloc.
The policy was started largely because The Holocaust nearly wiped out so many of their religious scholars. However, that was far enough in the past to review that policy today.
I would also assume that % of non religious Jews have risen, and probably if you exclude orthodox average Israeli, even religious one, has less religiosity than back in a day. So it probably feels more weird to support these people.
Especially as the non-orthodox are openly mocked or disrespected by the Orthodox as not being deemed righteous enough.
Humans really are just crabs in a bucket
It started as a way to kick a political problem down the road when Israel was still getting set up, and there was multiple huge divisions. This was a quick way to paper over what was then a very small problem. Now that road has been walked, and the problem has grown in multiple different ways.
They do it because originally there were only 500 Ultra-Orthodox Jews in all of Israel and it was easier just to appease them than to argue with them.
and they pump out a lot of babies. they seem to think they are special. so there numbers will grow which is a problem.
It's backdoor politics that started out as innocent enough and got worse with time for corrupt reasons.
Ok… I understand how the ultra-religious could ignore science, but *math?!* How do they budget or plan for anything if they can’t do math???
If the young haredi aren't educated enough to function in mainstream society, it keeps them in the community and dependent on the haredi leadership...who get a generous cut of their benefits. Many haredi communities operate like exploitative cults. It's a bad situation. The IDF ran a pilot program for haredi recruits a few years ago and found they needed months of remedial education, as well as training on how to function outside their ulta-orthodox bubble, especially in how to deal with women.
They're idiots. They can do very basic arithmetic and that's about it. I know a guy that was on the fringes of these types of groups that finished high school with a barely functional math capacity.
That also describes all too many of the people in my class. But I try at least
It happened like this: "You are saying we have to do these things, and you are wrong, therefore EVERYTHING you mandate must be wrong", and then they threw out anything like it and turtled down.
>Only the Ultra-orthodox get a stipend for every child they have, This is incorrect. Everyone is entitled to the child stipend. They do get other forms of support unique to them.
If a Muslim country did this they would be accused of training terrorists.
These people are a religious cult with extremist beliefs, so yeah pretty much.
It's basically a government funded cult with no way out because people can't even turn to the government to get away.
Studying Torah and religious studies? Might as well study Harry Potter. Maths and science hold the key to the future, if Israel is to have one it will be because they have properly educated the population.
Just them, and everyone but them is frustrated and annoyed and wants them to get up and contribute to society already. This draft law is a big move in the right direction. You can't expect a country to wait on you hand and foot and refuse to contribute without repercussions
Hasidic.
It seems like the Ultra-Orthodox do know how to mobilize and fight. Go ahead sign them up
Hasidic team six.
Schlemiel Team Six
Schlmazal team seven reporting in!
This is Goldstein leader, standing by.
I’d run with this, but my heart wouldn’t be in it knowing we are prohibited from having a Porkins.
Were you planning on eating Porkins?
So we're just going to leave free pork floating around in space now?
SlowClap.gif
I snorted. Well done.
# Hasenpfeffer Incorporated!
Tuches Brigade roll out!
Seal Team Hasidix
All Space Laser division.
Black Peyos Ops.
Religious exemptions for military service are the most bullshit thing ever. If you have compulsory service none of the exceptions should ever be for anything voluntary.
There should be an alternative civil service for everyone who is a pacifist, be it for religious, political or moral reasons. At least in peace time. When your country is under attack, usually everyone has to do their part and do what is needed. No one should be under the illusion that avoiding military services would help you avoiding drafting in case of war. The only difference is how much training you've got prior.
That already exists, the army is extremely happy to let pacifists go work at the fire service or paramedics. The Haredim still object to it because it's not Torah study. They believe anyone not studying Torah isn't fulfilling their true potential. The only thing that matters in their view is Torah study, everything else is irrelevant.
How many people do you need to study this book? Like is it super conplex or what?
Lol. I love this question….how long have they been studying the thing?
I'm fine with it if they also have exceptions for moralistic reasons. But that never seems to be the case
Why do you have to be a religious zealot to get an exemption for moral reasons? I don’t want to kill anyone either but they’d sure as shit draft me if I were a citizen.
I think that's what he meant. He is fine with Religious exemptions as long as you can also get an exemption for being a non-religious moral objector.
^ Yea, this exactly. I don't care if your reasons for objecting are religious or not. As long as all are treated the same
Compulsory military service, aka slavery, is pretty bullshit too.
They attacked a police precinct in Brooklyn in the 1970s. [70 people were hurt, 62 were police. ](https://www.nytimes.com/1978/12/03/archives/70-are-hurt-including-62-officers-as-hasidim-storm-a-police-station.html) One guy only was arrested and the charges were dropped when the media stopped paying attention.
Exactly, how can they be against war by being violent? Kinda kicks the stool out from under them.
They're extremely pro-war. They just don't want to fight in it.
Your job isn't to die for your country, it's to make the other sonuvabitch die for his.
They aren't against violence per se, they are against them, as individuals, drafting to a largely (but not entirely) secular army.
They want all the benefits of a Jewish state but don't want to help defend it. Draft them all. lol
They are the ones pushing for max retribution and illegal settlements into the west bank. It's cynical that their kids are exempt of military service.
Sort of acting like pseudo aristocracy. Public losses, private gains. No risk for them, only benefits.
Maybe I'm ignorant here but isn't that the whole origin of the Jewish religion? It's a religion that developed in a late bronze age pastoral society where the priesthood could live in the temple enjoying the benefits of everyone's labour (free meat basically) while the shepherds had a life of hardship in the fields... The whole Torah is almost a diary of Yahweh punishing the Israelites when they don't continue to offer their animal sacrifices - sounds like the ultimate divine protection racket imo.
> Maybe I'm ignorant here but isn't that the whole origin of the ~~Jewish~~ religion? No need to even specify any religion, but I'd wager it's a lot more rampant in christianity/islam but my knowledge of judaism is pretty limited. Also seems fair to say some specific branches of religions take it much further IE mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, reading up on how mormons run Utah is pretty disturbing and it really does feel like a huge racket and closer to the mafia than a religion.
That's not the ultra-orthodox, that's the national religious bloc. They are both orthodox, but they are very distinct groups. Very common for people to get them mixed up. The ultra-orthodox only really live in two settlements, Beitar Illit and Kiriyat Sefer and they only moved there because of government encouragement, not for ideological reasons.
That's not true, almost none of this stream of Ultra Orthodox live in settlements. They are what you could consider apathetic to zionism as a project, their interests are purely material.
They are literally sending thoughts and prayers for the soldiers. 😆
Some of them actually send stones... By throwing them on the soldiers that (sometimes) stop them from attacking Palestinians in the West Bank and destroying their possessions; or kick them out from their illegal outposts they regularly establish.
War doesn’t make exceptions.
Can an Israeli explain, why were these whackjobs given an exception in the first place?
The exception was given early on when there were literally 400 yeshiva students. The seculars assumed the ultra-Orthodox would disappear sooner or later and the ultra-Orthodox assumed the state wouldn't make it and the seculars would leave. They were both wrong, but the seculars were wronger.
Give the Yeshiva's an inch they take 100 miles. Who knew that getting out of shit would attract people?
It's more the fact that they have a LOT of kids. They don't get many converts at all, but people who are raised Haredi don't tend to leave it either. Kind of like the Amish in the US. (Except the Amish work hard and support themselves.)
> Except the Amish work hard and support themselves. And generally refuse military service.
Another differentiation is that the Amish aren't constantly rattling the war saber. It's one thing to not want to be a part of a force of violence, it's another to tell other people they need to fight a group of people while "I'm going to read this really old document and think about you all."
Since the US hasn't called up a draft since 1973, it's not really a live political issue here. We have an all volunteer military.
It’s still mandatory for 18 yr old men to register though
Yeah, but the lessons of the last two drafts is that the Draft sucks at producing a fighting force. In the modern military, the only chance the military would request a draft is in response to an existential threat to the US. Edit: The united states, not isis lol
>In the modern military, the only chance the military would request a draft is in response to an existential threat to the IS. I really doubt we'd ever reinstate the draft just to save ISIS.
In practice refusing to register with the draft is not punished. Also the Amish don't interact with any of the benefit systems that compel men to register. The soft power ways to force men to enlist don't matter to them.
They're are no criminal punishments but you would be refused many benefits of the state like federal student loans and grants if you refused to sign up for the draft.
Originally Ben Gurion agreed to let a small number of yeshiva students be exempt. If I remember correctly it was 400. It has ballooned to 60K today.
400 to 60k hmm almost like not dying in stupid wars is very popular
Yet 30+% of Israeli settlers are ultra orthodox. They’re fine stoking the flames, but don’t want to deal with actual war.
Yup. And this is the ultimate sticking point for ordinary Israelis. These guys cause a lot of the problems but aren’t responsible to help when their pot stirring causes open conflict.
And yell so loudly when they get called out.
Basically [Meegan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eirBtt7wIDU) on a bigger scale.
Off-topic, but: Jesus fucking Christ, those sketches are the single best depiction of what it feels like to be in an emotionally abusive relationship I've seen in my life. Those weren't "comedy" sketches, they were fucking short horror movies. If you ever find yourself in a relationship with a Meegan, run, don't walk, as far and fast away as possible. If they try to manipulate you into staying, don't engage with their arguments, don't try to reason with them, they'll just twist your words into a pretzel. Just get your shit and go. And do it fast, because that kind of person *will* escalate to physical abuse without a shred of remorse. (Mainly because they're incapable of feeling remorse.)
Jordan Peele writing a horror movie, you say?
Always an upvote for mah boys Key and Peelesomes.
That’s true, but the reason that their numbers exploded was because ultra-Orthodox Jews (like a lot of religious conservatives) tend to marry young and have large families
It wasn't originally a blanket exemption - 400 was the annual quota for exemptions, regardless of the size of the UO population. Until Begin canceled the quota in 1977 to gain their political support.
When the stated war goal of every side you fight against is the total destruction of your nation and people then there are no conscientious objectors, just cowards.
Ah, but they don't see it that way, they're religious extremists who genuinely believe that the nation will be destroyed if they stop praying.
And they say this explicitly, they're quite insulting to secular Israelis, because they believe Israeli only exists because of their prayer. There's entitlement, then there's proper mental illness.
Doubt Israelis think the wars they've had to fight have been stupid. They are literally fighting for their survival, surrounded by foes.
It's stayed in place because the ruling coalitions over the years have needed the Orthodox to be able to form a government. To avoid an Orthodox revolt, they've maintained massive carve outs for the Orthodox \(not just in military service\).
There were very few of them, and the idea was that they would be a living museum to a way of life that would die out over time.
Unfortunately, they take the "go forth and multiply" really seriously and breed like fucking rabbits. Then they raise their kids to marry early and fuck like rabbits with men studying Torah and women to take care of the household and keep fucking. 2 people can produce 100 in 2 or 3 generations. Obviously, really unsustainable especially in a very small country like Israel.
Where do they get their money to survive? The Israeli government can't be subsidizing that unsustainable lifestyle. Right? Right??
They are heavily reliant on government support
> Where do they get their money to survive? The Israeli government can't be subsidizing that unsustainable lifestyle. Right? Right?? They get UBI, essentially.
UBI but spelled with you. You basic income not those who need it you the person who votes for the people that will give you more money
Living as a settler in the West Bank is highly subsidized. Also, these folks are supported by others, sometimes going door to door asking for money so they can focus on their studies for the good of everyone. Too busy working for a living and not able to constantly study Torah? No problem, give me and my family some cash and I'll perform blessings for you and your family. It's like a 18X mitzvah.
There used to only be a few hundred of them. Hundreds of couples having an *average* of six to seven kids over the course of several generations…it’s now in the tens of thousands.
Yet another case of the older generation ruining shit. "Young people these days have no drive! Back in my day all we did was *checks notes* make children and take government handouts!" /s
Pretty much when they came up with the rule they didn't constitute a large percentage of the Israeli population and the alternative to being drafted was spending 8 years in the yeshuve. Basically an ultra religious Bible college. Only the most dedicated would take that way because of how long it takes. Now that the ultra religious are a larger part of the country the mostly secular left that has been fighting Israel's wars got tired of the handouts.
As an American I'd wager it's probably the same as the evangelicals here. They're an exceptionally reliable voter base so the right caters to them.
You also have to understand that these people literally just study Torah and Talmud every day, subsidized by donors, and until earlier this year, many military-aged men received government subsidies. So people were angry that they were getting paid by a government (I.e. it’s people) that they refused to stand up for. Add to that the frustration with the Hasidic’s disproportionate say in government affairs with Bibi’s coalition…..and you’ve got where things are today.
You're correct. That's how the criminal Bibi cemented his power by bending knee to the right wing block in order to escape jail.
I can tell you the effect as I see it. I'm super fucking goy, but my wife's fam is orthodox and they have a baker's dozen rabbis in New York and Israel. Basically, to hear these guys talk, they're the heart and soul of Israel and know everything. Everything. And the country exists to support and protect them. Frankly, looks like a grift to me. Doesn't help that they're dicks.
God fucking damn it, they are literally the biggest crybaby. They expect to live without working or doing anything actually productive for society and now they get one thing they have to do and are throwing a tamper tantrum
They're the fucking worst. Had an Israeli GF who accidentally drove into a Hasidic neighborhood and they attacked her, tried to pull her out of the car. All because she was a woman driver.
The Hasidic community in New York is the same. They don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves and they treat anyone on their turf like they are some gang, meanwhile escaping all accountability for their actions.
Was it a Hasidic community who built tunnels under New York so they could ignore covid regs because there religious practices were more important than the lives of those in the wider community? Amazing how selfish "religious" people can be
Believing in space angels above all else leads to a lot of problems.
They are also the same people who were crowding the streets during lockdown when some dude died like Covid didn’t apply to them.
In NYC they used to have the Mitzvah Mobiles (now they’re called Mitzvah tanks). They would go up to women who looked Jewish and would say, “Why are you wearing makeup and miniskirts? This is not who you are. You should be married to a Jewish man and bring your children up to be proud Jews.” They soon learned - back in the 1970s - not to do that to my sister in law. They would jump off the sidewalk when she walked past them applying lipstick saying, “You have something to say to me? Huh?” It was the 1970s when the women’s movement was … radical. They were big fat men and she was about 90lbs. She’d bust their balls every time. They did not mess with her.
those fuckers are very pushy
I bet they'd be right at home with the Iranian or Saudi morality police, probably even armed with the same BOLO alerts and diagrams (though the Saudi ones have apparently been tempered in the past few years)
B'nei Brak? I have religious family members in Israel and even they refuse to go there because the people are so hostile.
THAT’S the fighting spirit lads!
What a surprise, religious people with the "rules for thee but not for me" mentality.
Well, at least you know they can fight
Thanks for the humour
Well we can see it is not because they have any problems with using violence. Bunch of crybabies.
That was never their issue. They’re not pacifists. They just believe that their prayers are more effective in securing Israel’s future — and it’s an easy cop out for them to also claim that it’s not meant to work for their own causes, but all of Israel’s collectively, while still totally missing the point.
If they truly believed that, they wouldnt attack the Israeli government. They would just pray hard as it is a more effective method to change government's opinion.
Again: they can’t pray for just themselves, they can only pray for Israel as a whole. It’s this bullshit state of mind where “our wish will only come true if everybody believes in it” kid theater bullshit becomes a reality for these people.
Since their prayers are so effective at getting god to do whatever is in the best interest of all of Israel, then unless they have been slacking and not praying hard enough, them being drafted is god working in mysterious ways to answer their prayers and make Israel better.
No. Their belief says that God cannot change the heart of other Jews, no matter how much they pray. The idea is that they must convince their brothers the old fashioned way. I mean violence. The old fashioned way is violence.
Since that is an acceptable method of communication for them, then they should enjoy going a few rounds with riot police.
Its Okay, its in Israel's interest that they are not getting drafted, they can pray for it. Or if its not in Israel's interest they avoid the draft, then, well, they should get drafted.
A part of their belief says Jews have free will, and must voluntarily agree to this scheme, but it won’t work so long as not everybody is on board. They can’t pray for something that’s in Israel’s interest if it involves affecting the wills of other Jews through prayer — hence violence against the government.
Since no group of people has ever fully agreed with each other, this is an admission that it is impossible for their prayers to ever work, unless almost everyone else is dead...
Sounds like lawyer bullshit…
Orthodox Jews are EXTREMELY litigious, even with their own faith. There’s a whole industry dedicated to cheating around Sabbath rules.
Go on...
For example: they're not allowed to press buttons to operate an elevator on the Sabbath (Saturday). Why? Making the elevator go is considered work, and therefore would break the Sabbath. Someone at some point has determined, however, that if they just make the elevator run through all of the floors automatically for the whole of the Sabbath but ahead of it beginning, nobody would have to press any button. The result is a less useful, more wasteful elevator. Not only does it defeat the point of not having anyone "do work", it also ends up wasting more energy. They interpret the button press as the work being done. That's how litigious they get.
I know they were never pacifists, never claimed they were. I was saying their violent actions show that their issue is not with the violent aspect of military service. Then I pointed out that they are crybabies because what they are doing throwing a tantrum. Such seems to be a common cultural practice throughout religious communities in the Middle East. It’s something they can bond and find common ground with many religious Muslim communities maybe.
They also don't pay taxes or do fucking anything. They are an absolute cancer.
Yup, they're taking over towns in the USA as well and gutting all public services. It's pretty wild stuff.
People furthest from the frontlines always tend to be the loudest war supporters. Imagine that.
>Protests in Jerusalem against the drafting of ultra-Orthodox Jews into the Israeli military turned violent on Sunday, with demonstrators attacking both law enforcement officers and a minister’s car, according to local police. It is rather ironic that the ultra-orthodox Jews are protesting their inclusion into the military draft when it is their extreme beliefs that help lead Israel to the situation that it is in today where it needs the military more than ever...
I’d also say it’s ironic that they will use violence to insist they not be forced into the military.
This is about the only thing I can agree with the Israeli government on, if you want it you have to join in to get it.
UO- Defend Israel to the last soldier! IG- okay, we need more soldiers, so we're drafting you. UO- NOT LIKE THAT!
Free ride's over! Go illegally settle somewhere else if you don't like it.
They're happy to steal land that isn't theirs, send women to war then spit on them when they come home because they're not in the kitchen and send their brothers to fight in their stead so the land they so covet is easier to steal. Fuck em.
Probably the worst kind of Israeli citizens. Happy to reap the benefits of the ultra right government such as establishing illegal settlements, but not when actually asked to step up themselves.
Hasidic jews are massive assholes coming from a jew
Consistently at my job (at a zoo) it’s the Hasidics who have a blatant disregard for our rules and often violate multiple rules at a time and continue to do so even after being told off. They really just don’t give a shit about anything but themselves
Why does he still have the job then?
"We'll fight you over here so ours don't die fighting over there. Yours can keep fighting, though."
But they spend all their time contemplating shit that doesn't exist! How ever will they handle having to contribute to their society?
The ultra-religious orthodox want other Jews to die in fights they start.
Is this the violence they say they are so against? Eat fucking shit.
So they love to warmonger, but they don't want to fight themselves? Bunch of wussies if you ask me
We demand you fight for our rights We cannot fight as this is against our faith We will fight you if you make us fight for our rights Lol
Oh so they can fight?
I consider ultra-orthodox Jewish an equivalent of Muslim zealots. Different belief in religion but both fanatical and will do harm to others because they believe they are in the right in the eyes of god. Those protestors should be arrested and sent to military boot camp pronto but not assigned to combat battalion as they are bound to turn it against their compatriot if given an chance.
I do think the idea of having them in the military is a bit worrying tho. The chances they do some fuck shit to suvilians for some holy war bullshit is exponentially higher then a normal soldier.
These assholes are the original "thoughts and prayers" douchebags. They have the stuck-in-the past part of the Amish without any of the hard work aspect, the religious insanity of evangelicals, and the cultyness of Branch Davidians. And they are terrible clients (and I am jewish, so I can't imagine how they treat non jews).
I don’t have much sympathy for them; they bitch and moan and want to be catered to but contribute nothing to the welfare of others-just like conservatives the world over
Oh, so they can fight
So….they want Israel protected but just don’t want to be the ones tasked with doing it….got it 😕
I used to work to with ex Israeli soldiers and they would tell you the greatest war will be secular israelis against the religious
I guess they can fight after all
Ah yes, "My imaginary friend said I'm a chosen one and you're shit." Can we stop pretending these people are anything but dangerous idiots at this point?
They are the ones stirring up the most trouble in Israel, and don’t have the courage to join the fight.
They only know how to beat the rights out of the women in their lives.
"Front of the line" They are great at stirring shit up but lack the courage to face people fighting back.
>Rioters threw stones at police officers and the car of Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf as he returned to his house, according to an Israeli police spokesperson. Protesters also set trash cans and the road on fire, blocking the highway. Thus proving that the exemption is not valid if it is based on their unwillingness to fight. More generally though I am concerned that these nutters will have to be thrown out of military service (or put in jail) at a much larger rate than the rest of the population since their self-righteous self image makes them much more likely to commit crimes against prisoners.
Theocratic entitlement.
Oh sure, *now* they want to fight.
Fights own government wont fight for its country. Isn't that wartime treason?
These morons make me ashamed to be Jewish. It’s like that preacher scene. Why are the loudest voices of a group crying for privilege or putting down others always the worst examples of it?
Not just in Israel are the ultra-Orthodox on the public dole. But very much so in the United States. Lakewood, New Jersey being just one example where welfare fraud by the ultra-orthodox occurs.
>Rioters threw stones at police officers and the car of Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf as he returned to his house, according to an Israeli police spokesperson. Protesters also set trash cans and the road on fire, blocking the highway. Guessing the Israeli forces must've opened fire with live rounds in response, which I've heard is justified in such scenarios. Right?
Proving they can fight
What a bunch of leeches.
Seriously, pound sand, they live off government hand outs, stir shit and let others die for them. I have zero time for that group.
I believe the Ultra-Orthodox were clamoring for war in Gaza and seizing land the most. They just don't want to pay a personal price.
Considering that (as a political base) they've been the biggest hindrence to peace (prior to October 6) , they probably should be subject to the same service requirements as the majority of Israeli citizens.
"I'm too good to work!"
Maybe if you're able to attack a government minister that proves violence isn't that forbidden to you?
Look they are showing they are ready for their military gear and guns.
So they will commit violence to avoid being drafted ?
It's about time they put some skin in the game. Makes a big difference when it's your arse that might get shot implementing the stuff you voted for.
This is a pretty good working example of biting the hand that feeds.
what's the Yiddish word for chickenhawk?
Time to deploy them right on the front lines
The Haredim have gone insane
What petulant little shits. These whoresons wont for war and death but not to be a part of it. Let their service have latrine duty as the most pleasant.
If they can vote for politicians who will send their young to die, they should not be exempt from serving.
Every society officially supporting cults of any kind, be it islamic, jewish, catholic, or nationalistic is fack*d up to the bone
Ultra Orthodox are a cult. They've been cheating the system for far too long.
>Wants to destroy Palestine >Happy people are dying for the cause >Gets prompted for a mil draft >Wait no... My heart bleeds purple pish...
"Since you're throwing rocks, it's clear that you see the value in fighting for what's important. That's why we're giving you free military training: so you'll know how to do violence properly, when it's time to fight for what's important."
Dear Israeli government, One of your major problems just slapped you in the face. Deal with it. Sincerely, The World
> Rioters threw stones at police officers and the car of Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf as he returned to his house, according to an Israeli police spokesperson. Protesters also set trash cans and the road on fire, blocking the highway. Threw stones? In the West Bank that will get a Palestinian shot. Wonder what happened to these protesters. Are they labeled as terrorists and shot down too?