Off top of my head, the $1 billion package included 10 120 mm, 82mm, and 60mm mortar systems plus ammo, the patriot battery, more Excalibur 155mm howitzer rounds and HIMAR rockets, more MRAPs (mine resistant trucks) and HMMWVs, more HARM anti radar missiles, and JDAM guided missiles. Then the $800 million that's actually part of the US military budget is to purchase Soviet caliber artillery munitions (122mm artillery/rocket, 152mm artillery, and 125mm tank rounds). Then there is a whole assortment of small arms and munitions.
>JDAM guided missiles
Isn't the whole point of a JDAM to convert dumb-fire bombs into guided munitions using the JDAM kit? Why would a modern missile with it's own guidance system need a JDAM kit? I was under the impression that JDAMs were only used on unguided (dumb) bombs. Seems like a redundant waste to put them on missiles.
Ukraine didn't start integrating HARM missiles until the Kharkiv Offensive in Aug/Sept. HARMs are not why Russia wasn't able to gain air supremacy, it's why they lost the ability to defend their airspace during Ukrainian offenses.
I'd argue Russia failed to gain air supremely because historically they invested in air defense while the west (United States) invested in the much more complex ability to take out Russian air defenses. Russia is just under invested in their offensive anti air defense capabilities and it shows.
Also the number of airframes needed to gain absolutely air superiority. There was a comparison between the US Airwar in Iraq 1 and the Russian invasion of Ukraine that I saw that really laid it out well.
Between having less airframes, a larger landmass to cover and no allies supplementing with their air forces you're left with a situation where the Ukrainians can't completely cover their land but Russia also hasn't been able to achieve total air control like the US and allies did in Desert Storm.
I'll see if I can find the comparison.
Not sure if I agree. If Russia has anything going for it it's equipment. I'd expect they should have been able to gather enough airframes on their own border. I think what Russia lacked was 1) well trained people 2) well integrated combined arms practice 3) sophisticated capabilities needed to hunt and destroy anti air assets.
What have you been reading? Russia wasn't able to get air superiority because Ukraine moved all their stuff around right before the initial wave of strikes on Feb 24th. Ukraine then had STINGERS and IGLAs for anything below that high ceiling when Russia found out they couldn't fly high otherwise they'd get shot down. Russia thought they could fly into Ukrainian air space with impunity and found out they were wrong. Russia still has layered air defense in the South and East especially for the Kherson offensive.
The $45 package basically gives the president and DoD that much money to dish out the packages just like the one I just went through. It doesnt item list what is to be sent, just that that much can be sent. Also, I believe there is still around $20 billion from the previous aid package that can be sent, so the president/DoD is working with close to $60+ billion in terms of military aid.
They aren’t trained to use them, it’s better to give them equipment that works now so they can keep fighting then pull from their available manpower to re-train for a few months on new hardware.
I think the ratio for US military is like 5:1.
For every 1 front line soldier they need 5 for logistics.
(I maybe wrong on that number)
So while they maybe able to drive the tank or airplane. They for sure as fuck don't have the specific training to fix them.
This is called the '[tooth-to-tail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth-to-tail_ratio)' ratio, and can vary depending on the conflict - it hit a high of 1:14 during the Cold War, and was still 1:8 during the war in Iraq.
Zalensky claimed otherwise in his speech to the House:
> I believe there should be no taboos between us in our alliance. Ukraine never asked the American soldiers to fight on our land instead of us. I assure you that Ukrainian soldiers can perfectly operate American tanks and planes themselves.
It's not that they don't *want* tanks and aircraft, it's that we're not willing to provide them.
Zelenskyy is a wartime president who has to say things like that. He is the literal global spokesperson for Ukraine, needs to make them sound strong and capable, but it’s propaganda still. Same energy as when Ukraine brags about how many Russians have died in Ukraine while keeping quiet about their own casualty numbers.
No one is saying they don’t want them, but I don’t buy at all that there are engineers, pilots, and support staff ready for them.
Thats called a White Elephant. Its a gift that bankrupts whoever you send it too. The US doesn't operate that much stuff to be honest, its a different mindset than Russia. Quality over quantity. 1000 Abrams would be about half of whats combat ready in the US arsenal. Abrams requires the financial and industrial backing of the US to keep them running and Ukraine can't foot that infrastructure. Especially not at that level. Truth is, tanks aren't that useful anyway and as a war concept are kinda going the way of the horse. They may be central to Russian war doctrine but we see how good that is. The US is moving away from tanks, the USMC has got rid of theirs. As for the planes, we are still about 9 months to a year out to have even a handful of pilots trained to fly those in COMBAT. Otherwise you're no better than Russia by sending ill trained people to their deaths.
Ukraine is getting what it needs most and what it can utilize most. The best war planners on the planet are currently working this issue with a single minded determination and a firehose of money is pointed at it.
> Truth is, tanks aren't that useful anyway and as a war concept are kinda going the way of the horse.
People have been saying tanks are useless since tanks were first introduced, but they're not going away any time soon. Tactics will change to counter threats, but that's the ebb and flow of weaponry. There are technologies developed for the rock paper scissors game of war on a constant basis as things are learnt.
Russian tactics with tanks are flawed, but Ukraine is still using tanks the way they're best used. They're still asking for and receiving tanks.
The US is not moving away from tanks, there's plans for the Abrams for the next 30 years. The marines are going to have the army provide their tank support. Notably, the marines didn't dispose of or sell the tanks, they transferred them to the army. Not something you'd do if tanks were on the way out.
Yeah, it is annoying to hear "why cant they just send this or that". It was far more complex than just to send whatever. So many factors to take into consideration. Training, strategic value, safety etc.
We'd need to send pilots and support crew as well, at least until we've trained their own soldiers enough. I believe that's already happening, but until the training is complete those planes would do very little good.
That's actually what the $45B aid package is for. Lot's of people are being disingenuous by acting like that package is just for Ukraine. In reality it's for multiple European allies of ours and is a years worth of aid. Ukraine is only getting a small fraction of that package.
Ukraine is getting the bulk of that, but there are supplies for European countries. We are replacing stuff they have sent to Ukraine already as well, plus helping them pay for increased military operations. There is a lot of NATO activity we don't hear about --- and not just black ops. NATO forces are giving real time intelligence to Ukraine about Russian troop movements, for one. NATO troops are providing massive logistic aid as well in Eastern Europe.
None. The $45 billion is a funding package of military, humanitarian, financial and other support. This is how congress passed aid to Ukraine before. This is a basically a series of giant checks to Biden that he is allowed to spend on certain categories.
The specifics are decided when the administration announces a aid package. So the $1 billion aid package announced recently came out of the aid that was by congress earlier in the year. Congress said, 'here's money' and periodically the White House has said, 'Here's what we're spending it on.'
That's part of the reason the administration announces in such detail what they are providing. Within the limits of security, they have to say how they are using the money congress gave them.
Jokes aside, so people are aware, as of a couple of weeks ago EU countries had provided more aid in total currency terms than the US.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/media-information/2022/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-surpasses-the-us-in-total-committed-aid/
This package obviously changes that, but EU countries aren't really contributing as little as people seem to think, they're just doing theirs in smaller amounts, so it isn't getting the same headlines.
Before anyone says "but it's just pledged!", so is this package, and something like $20b of the previous US packages which haven't yet been supplied. These things take time.
Also taking refugees so families are safe and survive is legitimately priceless for soldiers and Poland alone has taken in a ludicrous number of people.
Poland knows what it is like to suffer Russia and Nazis so facing Russian Nazis like Ukraine currently is it makes sense. Poland committed hard previously too, Polish troops were a solid part of helping Britain push back against Germany.
https://reliefweb.int/report/poland/refugees-ukraine-poland-profiling-update-september-2022-enpl
1.4 million recorded refugees in a country of around 38 million. 4% of the population added as refugees in less than a year and that's only some of what the Polish are doing to help, and they still openly voice their willingness to do more. My US perspective on the bonds between Eastern European countries always made it seem like an area where they could barely stand each other but there's a level of brotherhood between these two nations that's incredible to behold.
This is definitely a form of aid that the EU provides, and the US doesn’t (to anywhere near as great an extent).
Everyone in helping, it’s just that some forms of help get headlines, and others don’t.
Don't forget the UK training tens thousand and counting ukranian troops and consistently providing higher end weapons. The UK has been setting precedents. The Russians really hate us.
Let’s also not forget who is getting the raw end of the deal when it comes to energy - the USA never got much from Russia so it isn’t suffering on that front, meanwhile in multiple countries in Europe gas/energy costs have skyrocketed to a point that severely damaged their economies. In other words, the USA is not suffering from sanctions like Europe is
Except even before the new provision passed through Congress the US had already provided $48 billion in aid. This new package will bring the new total to around $100 billion in aid, substantially more than the EU. I'm glad that the EU has finally entered the competition to see who can give the most though, one cross Atlantic rivalry I can get behind!
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
“The Ukraine” is a moniker used by Russia to delegitimize Ukraine’s sovereignty by referring to it as a region rather than a nation.
They believe it to be a region of the Russian empire to be reclaimed, rather than a nation with its own ambitions, people, and culture.
The West did cozy up to Russia since 1998. Imperial Putler just couldn't wait any longer (old) and thought the world was weak and he can do some conquerin'
Now, US mad because crazy genocide.
If the corruption within the Russian military complex was not as widespread, then they would've won this war a long time ago. As things are, even with extreme corporate milking, with everything costing 10x as much as the manufacturing cost, Russia just cannot compare.
Ah but to be fair, Russia is rotten.
Russia *could* do a lot more with the money they spend, but its system is grossly corrupt. They have on paper amazing battle kit, from air to tank forces, but in reality armor is padded with clay and weapons are rusty.
While Russia *could* get more bang for the buck, because of corruption they likely get less.
An absolute bargain to vanquish Putin, and put Russia in notice that it can’t do stupid shit. Makes Europe and the world safer for a generation. Money well spent, and almost no American blood spilled.
This war has been a great display of US weaponry to other countries and how much more superior we (US) are compared to the other side and their allies (Russia, Iran, etc). Everyone in the NATO wants the F-35, mostly everyone else in the EU, especially Eastern Europe, is dumping their old MIGS for F-16s.
Ps: I understand Iran is not in this war but they did provide drones to Russia.
Worth every penny. Now we should call Putin’s bluff and defend Ukraine from inside Ukraine. No offensive posturing, just slaughter every militant Russian within their border, including the parts that Putin annexed.
For those that will scream in horror about nukes, Russia is not able to justify using nukes unless an enemy attacks within the internationally recognized borders. If they do so otherwise, they will cease to exist. Which is why they haven’t used them already, and will not.
This. And even Xi Jinping publicly said “don’t” and they can’t afford to piss off China and lose their remaining level of cooperation. The gas station very much needs that customer.
As an American, this is an acceptable use of our defense spending.
Russia is trying to destabilize a largely liberal and democratic world order. We either deal with them by proxy or directly. I prefer the proxy method.
Ukraine is the bell weather for what the future holds. If Russia is given an inch on this, it will signal to them (and China) that the west is willing to roll over.
The world is at a watershed moment and we need to stomp our fascist scum like Russia.
Sure we use Nikes for air defense, we pretty much use patriots as abm
So they’d be perfect for Ukrainians and their needs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Hercules
“The Patriot system is one of the most expensive single aid transfers the U.S. has made to Ukraine this year. At $4 million apiece, the PAC-3 missiles that accompany the Patriot are much more expensive than Stingers or the missiles launched by HIMARS.
A Patriot battery is equipped with a truck-mounted launching system, with eight launchers that each hold between four and 16 ready-to-fire missiles, depending on the type of munition. The system, which 90 soldiers can operate, also uses radars, control stations and power generators.”
It is a complicated system that requires training and maintenance.
So Putin complains about Ukraine having the temerity to defend itself…they should rather just roll over and let every man, woman and child be raped, tortured and murdered by Russian cunts!!!
Maybe so.
But have a merry Christmas and have a drink night.
We've all been through some shit over the last year. I think Peace and good will towards all is in order.
That’s a bit misleading since this was a vote for a giant omnibus bill. The Ukraine aid is honestly a drop in the bucket compared to the whole bill, which is quite large.
Me either. I was mostly a republican voter until 2016... and they just kept going. This last election I didn't vote for a single republican, and honestly I can't see myself doing so again. If the state party apologized for saying Trump won 2020 and thoroughly distanced themselves from the whole MAGA thing, I'd consider it, but I can't see them doing so.
And it's a shame. My state rep is a good man who has done a lot of good for our district, and for my family personally. Got the transportation department to actually do something after the 3rd vehicle went off the road into our fence. But as I told him this year, I can't vote for someone who is a part of and supports the republican party in our state. They denied what happened on Jan 6th, and voting for him means supporting them, and I won't. If he went independent I'd vote for him again gladly, but it's blue and grey for me, at least for the foreseeable future.
Similar for me... although I stopped voting for any Republicans in the mid 2000s.
They lost the plot at some point. Just can't support them anymore.
The straw that broke the camel's back for me was when I heard a few state politicians(CA) mocking people in the dairy industry dumb enough to vote for them.
I realized then that they don't care about any of the people voting for them. Before someone says it...yeah it's probably the same on the other side as well.
> Republicans have been batshit crazies since at least 2008 with tea party.
Romney wasn't. His foreign policy was miles better than Obama, who did the infamous, 'reset' with Russia after the Russo-Georgia war, and in 2012 claimed that Al Quada was a greater strategic threat than Russia to American interests and mocked Romney for calling Russia one of our greatest geostrategic foes. 2022 has proved Romney right. And for me, foreign policy is one of the most important areas for presidential candidates. Romney was the better candidate there.
We’ll see next year when they have a small majority. They could single handedly fuck this all up because Putin doesn’t have to worry about an opposition party getting in his way.
Not everyone, but it would more than sustain giving all school children in the country the ability to eat a healthy lunch, with about $15billion in change. Not saying we shouldn't support Ukraine, but to pretend we don't have the ability to solve problems here at home as well, for smaller price tag, is also disingenuous.
Distributing it wouldn't be an issue if corporations and our government actually wanted everyone to have food. The issue is they don't have any interest in making sure all Americans are fed.
It’s way more complicated than that.
Some corporations would benefit greatly from more people being fed, like Cargill and ADM. but, of course, they want the government to pay them for it (which makes sense). Then there are people in the government who want to do more and other who want to do less.
We already have food stamps, food banks (that a lot of grocery stores have ongoing relationships with), and free and reduced cost school lunches. So there is an interest in feeding people. However, food stamps are very inadequate. Then there are also problems like getting food to those who need it, who have varying degrees of function. With such a big country, it’s not like you can just centrally distribute food easily and efficiently. Then there are also families where people struggling with addiction may sell their food stamps for money for drugs. And there are “food deserts” where there are few or no convenient grocery stores. But that’s not easy to fix. Grocery stores are a low margin business so a lot of factors can make running a grocery store unprofitable in an area (high rents but no ability to mark up, distribution/traffic/supply issues, shoplifting, uneven purchasing habits (seasonal or time of the month).
I think some fixes, like substantially increasing food stamps, would help. But it’s hard to fix the problem altogether.
More money than Russia, Belarus and Iran put together..its like printing money.
Basically in future those 3 countries are fuked to put it politely! Especially Russias who's military is going down and their economy! Good luck you little fuks
Ha Putin said the Patriots were outdated. Guess we'll see. Tanks, cough, for letting us know.
We'll have to replace the ones that get used with something better... eh, shame.
US will spend 95 billion dollars on Ukraine. That is 20B more than India military spendings. Taiwan has a tiny 16.9B dollar military 2022 spending budget but 1/8th.
I mean yeah would you spend 0.002% of your yearly salary to fuck over someone whos trying to take a promotion from you at work?
Imperfect analogy but the bang -for - buck ratio we’re getting on ukraines millitary aid is insane
Patriot missiles are not a cure all, and it's weird that reddit thinks they are.
It will also take months before they are all fully operational and the soldiers properly trained on how to use them.
Maybe not a cure all, but a significant improvement over the AA systems they're using currently. And they can both take down aircraft at long range, as well as ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. Park a few of these outside major cities and Russia's success rate drops significantly.
These are, in fact, a pretty big game changer
45B is a number we haven't seen since the start of the war. The US Is sending ALOT of money. Really makes you see how big America's economic power is. And unlike Afghanistan and Iraq It's a good investment because Ukraine Is basically destroying Russia's army without a dingle American soldier dying and a war between it and the west. The US Is spending alot of money but this time It's actually going to be In It's favor.
I believe our support works out to be about 5-10% of our yearly military budget.
And we’ve not even really given them our good stuff, that’s what makes the Ukrainian struggle all the more impressive
Really hope we can provide more humanitarian aid. It's criminally unfair the population of civilians are going to be freezing and starving over this fucking war that was started for no reason. Russia is destroying itself as well as putting innocent people in terrible danger of famine,disease, & exposure. This doesn't even include the obvious risk of death by random missle attacks on civilian targets.
Still no universal healthcare. *Sighs*
Sure it's not crates of cash they are sending, but damn the US sure has spent a lot of money making sure things are produced and shipped over.
> Still no universal healthcare
That will take AT LEAST 60 Democrat seats in the Senate to get to the president's desk to sign. Because there is just no way the GOP won't filibuster it. AND it's unlikely Democrats have enough votes right now to "nuke" that option.
They get it for free, and in return when this is over they become a US ally. This profits us because it lowers Russia as a threat, showing everyone that they can’t even conquer a weaker, former puppet state. This will stop enemy nations from allying with Russia, therefore allowing us to pivot to Asia to fend off China
Don’t forget you just made a freaking statement who the boss is. I mean overt the last 10 years world has been challenging towards USA, China and Russia were happy to pose as the great powers undermining US will and ability to defend allies. Welp. Not anymore. And world loves America once again. On top of that your strategic interest in having Central Europe heavily towards US right now is achieved.
It has been an absolute master class in 'aggressive negotiations." The politics it took would have been beyond Bernie Sanders. It actually seems like Biden was the best man for the job at this point in history.
Yep, and the domestic companies get paid by the US govt for supplying the resources to Ukraine for free. So there’s an economic stimulus aspect as well.
Free, and keep in mind that the majority of this stuff is already made surplus from the Cold War that would just end up rotting in a junkyard otherwise.
Before I wasn't keen on military spending. This war changed my mind on that. I just fucking love how US keeps going: meh let's throw them another 45 bil lol
There is nothing wrong with a well funded military industrial complex. It’s the only thing America seems to actually be good at. I don’t know why this is a such a “automatically bad” thing. Is a government owned less efficient military industry complex better or something?
I'd rather people (men, women, children) didn't freeze to death because someone kept targeting their electrical grid during the coldest part of the year. I mean, it's just an ever-growing list of war crimes, right? What's the big deal? Let's not pretend that money would have gone to something better in the US because there is no chance it would have. Not under Trump. Not under Biden. 9 million kids would still be food insecure, there would still be over a hundred billion in medical debt, and the pockets of weapons manufacturers would still be lined while they sat on their fat asses.
Send them weapons. More have to be made to replace those weapons, companies making them are here in the U.S., company employs U.S. citizens. Money circulates through U.S. economy. Hopefully it’ll help our economy out.
> More have to be made to replace those weapons, companies making them are here in the U.S., company employs U.S. citizens. Money circulates through U.S. economy. Hopefully it’ll help our economy out.
Seems like it would be more efficient to help people directly than dump a bunch of public funds into weapons manufacturing and hope a little bit of it trickles down to the rest of us.
They need food first, they can’t waste time making their own food and they can’t use weapons if they all can’t eat daily. But yeah after food send them weapons
On the first day of Christmas, the US gave to me: 1 Patriot missile...
2 HIMARS..
3 million rounds
4 M777s
5 fighter jets
6 tan HUMVEES
SEVEN Thousand Javelins!
8 MILLION GUNS!
9 ATACMS
10 Russian soldiers
Other than Patriot, what other weapons are in this package?
Off top of my head, the $1 billion package included 10 120 mm, 82mm, and 60mm mortar systems plus ammo, the patriot battery, more Excalibur 155mm howitzer rounds and HIMAR rockets, more MRAPs (mine resistant trucks) and HMMWVs, more HARM anti radar missiles, and JDAM guided missiles. Then the $800 million that's actually part of the US military budget is to purchase Soviet caliber artillery munitions (122mm artillery/rocket, 152mm artillery, and 125mm tank rounds). Then there is a whole assortment of small arms and munitions.
Damn bruh Off the top of your head Seriously, thanks
Right? Wtf. This dude wrote it.
The dude abides.
I think we found Viktor Bout's reddit account.
Guy doesn't have to use "IANAAD but" (I am not an arms dealer but...)
I’m impressed. This guy is ChadGpt
>JDAM guided missiles Isn't the whole point of a JDAM to convert dumb-fire bombs into guided munitions using the JDAM kit? Why would a modern missile with it's own guidance system need a JDAM kit? I was under the impression that JDAMs were only used on unguided (dumb) bombs. Seems like a redundant waste to put them on missiles.
I believe you are right. Again, I was just trying to put things down as best I could based on a list I read earlier this week.
Still, your ability to remember things is impressive!
[удалено]
Ukraine didn't start integrating HARM missiles until the Kharkiv Offensive in Aug/Sept. HARMs are not why Russia wasn't able to gain air supremacy, it's why they lost the ability to defend their airspace during Ukrainian offenses.
Yeah; HARMs are why the Ukrainian air force has been able to engage in some offensive sorties, though.
Russian Airforce is why Russia don't have air superiority xd
I'd argue Russia failed to gain air supremely because historically they invested in air defense while the west (United States) invested in the much more complex ability to take out Russian air defenses. Russia is just under invested in their offensive anti air defense capabilities and it shows.
Also the number of airframes needed to gain absolutely air superiority. There was a comparison between the US Airwar in Iraq 1 and the Russian invasion of Ukraine that I saw that really laid it out well. Between having less airframes, a larger landmass to cover and no allies supplementing with their air forces you're left with a situation where the Ukrainians can't completely cover their land but Russia also hasn't been able to achieve total air control like the US and allies did in Desert Storm. I'll see if I can find the comparison.
Not sure if I agree. If Russia has anything going for it it's equipment. I'd expect they should have been able to gather enough airframes on their own border. I think what Russia lacked was 1) well trained people 2) well integrated combined arms practice 3) sophisticated capabilities needed to hunt and destroy anti air assets.
HARM missiles haven't been around in Ukraine long enough for those to be the reason why Russia couldn't establish air superiority.
What have you been reading? Russia wasn't able to get air superiority because Ukraine moved all their stuff around right before the initial wave of strikes on Feb 24th. Ukraine then had STINGERS and IGLAs for anything below that high ceiling when Russia found out they couldn't fly high otherwise they'd get shot down. Russia thought they could fly into Ukrainian air space with impunity and found out they were wrong. Russia still has layered air defense in the South and East especially for the Kherson offensive.
For clarification, I mean the $45 billion package
The $45 package basically gives the president and DoD that much money to dish out the packages just like the one I just went through. It doesnt item list what is to be sent, just that that much can be sent. Also, I believe there is still around $20 billion from the previous aid package that can be sent, so the president/DoD is working with close to $60+ billion in terms of military aid.
Holy crap, that's literally the same size as the average yearly Russian military budget since 2015.
And that's why nobody sane fucks with US.
Exactly
Not on the field of war, anyway. Diplomacy is cheaper, easier and more effective. We destroy our enemies, when we make friends of them.
It’s for the whole next year and not only for Ukraine, but also for European allies.
Nice, wish we'd just send Ukraine a hundred F-15s and F-16s already, and a thousand Abrams
They aren’t trained to use them, it’s better to give them equipment that works now so they can keep fighting then pull from their available manpower to re-train for a few months on new hardware.
It's also not just training in use but also maintenance, support, and the entire logistics chain.
I think the ratio for US military is like 5:1. For every 1 front line soldier they need 5 for logistics. (I maybe wrong on that number) So while they maybe able to drive the tank or airplane. They for sure as fuck don't have the specific training to fix them.
This is called the '[tooth-to-tail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth-to-tail_ratio)' ratio, and can vary depending on the conflict - it hit a high of 1:14 during the Cold War, and was still 1:8 during the war in Iraq.
Zalensky claimed otherwise in his speech to the House: > I believe there should be no taboos between us in our alliance. Ukraine never asked the American soldiers to fight on our land instead of us. I assure you that Ukrainian soldiers can perfectly operate American tanks and planes themselves. It's not that they don't *want* tanks and aircraft, it's that we're not willing to provide them.
Zelenskyy is a wartime president who has to say things like that. He is the literal global spokesperson for Ukraine, needs to make them sound strong and capable, but it’s propaganda still. Same energy as when Ukraine brags about how many Russians have died in Ukraine while keeping quiet about their own casualty numbers. No one is saying they don’t want them, but I don’t buy at all that there are engineers, pilots, and support staff ready for them.
Thats called a White Elephant. Its a gift that bankrupts whoever you send it too. The US doesn't operate that much stuff to be honest, its a different mindset than Russia. Quality over quantity. 1000 Abrams would be about half of whats combat ready in the US arsenal. Abrams requires the financial and industrial backing of the US to keep them running and Ukraine can't foot that infrastructure. Especially not at that level. Truth is, tanks aren't that useful anyway and as a war concept are kinda going the way of the horse. They may be central to Russian war doctrine but we see how good that is. The US is moving away from tanks, the USMC has got rid of theirs. As for the planes, we are still about 9 months to a year out to have even a handful of pilots trained to fly those in COMBAT. Otherwise you're no better than Russia by sending ill trained people to their deaths. Ukraine is getting what it needs most and what it can utilize most. The best war planners on the planet are currently working this issue with a single minded determination and a firehose of money is pointed at it.
> Truth is, tanks aren't that useful anyway and as a war concept are kinda going the way of the horse. People have been saying tanks are useless since tanks were first introduced, but they're not going away any time soon. Tactics will change to counter threats, but that's the ebb and flow of weaponry. There are technologies developed for the rock paper scissors game of war on a constant basis as things are learnt. Russian tactics with tanks are flawed, but Ukraine is still using tanks the way they're best used. They're still asking for and receiving tanks. The US is not moving away from tanks, there's plans for the Abrams for the next 30 years. The marines are going to have the army provide their tank support. Notably, the marines didn't dispose of or sell the tanks, they transferred them to the army. Not something you'd do if tanks were on the way out.
Yeah, it is annoying to hear "why cant they just send this or that". It was far more complex than just to send whatever. So many factors to take into consideration. Training, strategic value, safety etc.
We'd need to send pilots and support crew as well, at least until we've trained their own soldiers enough. I believe that's already happening, but until the training is complete those planes would do very little good.
Each of these aid packages could arm entire countries armies individually As long as it proves effective for the Ukrainians, give them more <3
That's actually what the $45B aid package is for. Lot's of people are being disingenuous by acting like that package is just for Ukraine. In reality it's for multiple European allies of ours and is a years worth of aid. Ukraine is only getting a small fraction of that package.
Ukraine is getting the bulk of that, but there are supplies for European countries. We are replacing stuff they have sent to Ukraine already as well, plus helping them pay for increased military operations. There is a lot of NATO activity we don't hear about --- and not just black ops. NATO forces are giving real time intelligence to Ukraine about Russian troop movements, for one. NATO troops are providing massive logistic aid as well in Eastern Europe.
I think the Air force has been trying to pass along the older reaper drones to ukraine but has met resistance in congress.
None. The $45 billion is a funding package of military, humanitarian, financial and other support. This is how congress passed aid to Ukraine before. This is a basically a series of giant checks to Biden that he is allowed to spend on certain categories. The specifics are decided when the administration announces a aid package. So the $1 billion aid package announced recently came out of the aid that was by congress earlier in the year. Congress said, 'here's money' and periodically the White House has said, 'Here's what we're spending it on.' That's part of the reason the administration announces in such detail what they are providing. Within the limits of security, they have to say how they are using the money congress gave them.
Dark Brandon's big c*ck
That is the package.
7 Mac 11s, about 8 .38s, nine 9s, 10 Mac 10s, and a partridge in a pear tree
*Russia insults Patriot missiles* US: “Okay then, you won’t mind them having these.” Russia: ^no, ^wait
The US has spent about $100bn on supporting Ukraine. Russian projected military budget for 2023 is about $83bn
Add other EU countries to this and the figure grows further. F pootin.
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Jokes aside, so people are aware, as of a couple of weeks ago EU countries had provided more aid in total currency terms than the US. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/media-information/2022/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-surpasses-the-us-in-total-committed-aid/ This package obviously changes that, but EU countries aren't really contributing as little as people seem to think, they're just doing theirs in smaller amounts, so it isn't getting the same headlines. Before anyone says "but it's just pledged!", so is this package, and something like $20b of the previous US packages which haven't yet been supplied. These things take time.
Also taking refugees so families are safe and survive is legitimately priceless for soldiers and Poland alone has taken in a ludicrous number of people.
Poland has gone above and beyond in this. Honestly, i have been impressed.
Poland knows what it is like to suffer Russia and Nazis so facing Russian Nazis like Ukraine currently is it makes sense. Poland committed hard previously too, Polish troops were a solid part of helping Britain push back against Germany.
https://reliefweb.int/report/poland/refugees-ukraine-poland-profiling-update-september-2022-enpl 1.4 million recorded refugees in a country of around 38 million. 4% of the population added as refugees in less than a year and that's only some of what the Polish are doing to help, and they still openly voice their willingness to do more. My US perspective on the bonds between Eastern European countries always made it seem like an area where they could barely stand each other but there's a level of brotherhood between these two nations that's incredible to behold.
This is definitely a form of aid that the EU provides, and the US doesn’t (to anywhere near as great an extent). Everyone in helping, it’s just that some forms of help get headlines, and others don’t.
Don't forget the UK training tens thousand and counting ukranian troops and consistently providing higher end weapons. The UK has been setting precedents. The Russians really hate us.
Yeah 100%. Glad to see the EU stepping up the defense budget a little. Especially since the GDP of the entire EU is smaller than the US
Let’s also not forget who is getting the raw end of the deal when it comes to energy - the USA never got much from Russia so it isn’t suffering on that front, meanwhile in multiple countries in Europe gas/energy costs have skyrocketed to a point that severely damaged their economies. In other words, the USA is not suffering from sanctions like Europe is
Except even before the new provision passed through Congress the US had already provided $48 billion in aid. This new package will bring the new total to around $100 billion in aid, substantially more than the EU. I'm glad that the EU has finally entered the competition to see who can give the most though, one cross Atlantic rivalry I can get behind! https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
Im starting to think that the US doesn't like Russia.
“The Ukraine” is a moniker used by Russia to delegitimize Ukraine’s sovereignty by referring to it as a region rather than a nation. They believe it to be a region of the Russian empire to be reclaimed, rather than a nation with its own ambitions, people, and culture.
The West did cozy up to Russia since 1998. Imperial Putler just couldn't wait any longer (old) and thought the world was weak and he can do some conquerin' Now, US mad because crazy genocide.
A lot of that was humanitarian and economic aid, not just military aid.
Also a big big part of that is replenishing us stock
To be fair, because of the cheap labor Russia can do a lot more with less. But that won't matter much longer.
Labor won't be so cheap when it is sparse.
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Hah. As if they have so many to spare. More like they got guards with Mosins leftover from 80 years ago
If the corruption within the Russian military complex was not as widespread, then they would've won this war a long time ago. As things are, even with extreme corporate milking, with everything costing 10x as much as the manufacturing cost, Russia just cannot compare.
Gotta factor in money off the top for corruption, so $83bn = 2 ruble.
LOL!!!! Funny cause true 🥲
I mean, are they doing more, though? Seems like Ukraine is being way more efficient with what they’re being supported with.
Ah but to be fair, Russia is rotten. Russia *could* do a lot more with the money they spend, but its system is grossly corrupt. They have on paper amazing battle kit, from air to tank forces, but in reality armor is padded with clay and weapons are rusty. While Russia *could* get more bang for the buck, because of corruption they likely get less.
An absolute bargain to vanquish Putin, and put Russia in notice that it can’t do stupid shit. Makes Europe and the world safer for a generation. Money well spent, and almost no American blood spilled.
This war has been a great display of US weaponry to other countries and how much more superior we (US) are compared to the other side and their allies (Russia, Iran, etc). Everyone in the NATO wants the F-35, mostly everyone else in the EU, especially Eastern Europe, is dumping their old MIGS for F-16s. Ps: I understand Iran is not in this war but they did provide drones to Russia.
Security assistance for Ukraine is more like $22 billion.
Well, when you pay un potatoes and threats, it will bring costs down
Worth every penny. Now we should call Putin’s bluff and defend Ukraine from inside Ukraine. No offensive posturing, just slaughter every militant Russian within their border, including the parts that Putin annexed. For those that will scream in horror about nukes, Russia is not able to justify using nukes unless an enemy attacks within the internationally recognized borders. If they do so otherwise, they will cease to exist. Which is why they haven’t used them already, and will not.
This. And even Xi Jinping publicly said “don’t” and they can’t afford to piss off China and lose their remaining level of cooperation. The gas station very much needs that customer.
Ukraine seems to be more than capable of defending their homeland. Nobody wishes for a land war in Europe again.
You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is to never get involved in a land war in ~~Asia~~ Europe.
Said by military expert Admiral Atheios569. 🫡
Outspending the bastards, that's now the US won the Cold War 30 years ago.
As an American, this is an acceptable use of our defense spending. Russia is trying to destabilize a largely liberal and democratic world order. We either deal with them by proxy or directly. I prefer the proxy method. Ukraine is the bell weather for what the future holds. If Russia is given an inch on this, it will signal to them (and China) that the west is willing to roll over. The world is at a watershed moment and we need to stomp our fascist scum like Russia.
The christmas presents are arrived
Joe Biden is now Santa Claus to The Ukraine.
They've been pretty big on dropping the "The" since Russia's been attempting to undermine thier statehood
You gotta admit that for about 5.5% of just one years defense budget wrecking about 50% of Russia's army is one hell of a screaming good value.
I like the way you think! 👍
Russia wrecked themselves through years of neglecting their military to line their own pockets
It's probably the most effective use of tax dollars in a military capacity since WW2.
If the U.S is giving away Patriot missiles systems, you know they got something even better squirreled 🐿️ away, for personal use.
Sure we use Nikes for air defense, we pretty much use patriots as abm So they’d be perfect for Ukrainians and their needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Hercules
Now I'm just picturing US air defence having big old ballistas that shoot Nike shoes at enemy aircraft.
Sergeant, launch the air Jordan’s
Nike has been retired for 50 years. The US has the Air Force for air defense.
“The Patriot system is one of the most expensive single aid transfers the U.S. has made to Ukraine this year. At $4 million apiece, the PAC-3 missiles that accompany the Patriot are much more expensive than Stingers or the missiles launched by HIMARS. A Patriot battery is equipped with a truck-mounted launching system, with eight launchers that each hold between four and 16 ready-to-fire missiles, depending on the type of munition. The system, which 90 soldiers can operate, also uses radars, control stations and power generators.” It is a complicated system that requires training and maintenance.
4 million per rocket?
Per battery as I read that. I believe it can take different types of rockets. Battery being the whole system -truck, launcher, rockets, etc
Nope,$4mil per missile
Oof
So Putin complains about Ukraine having the temerity to defend itself…they should rather just roll over and let every man, woman and child be raped, tortured and murdered by Russian cunts!!!
Pretty much. He doesn’t want them to have the ability to defend against his threats. And make more threats when they can.
Like all ultra conservatives, everything Russia says is disingenuous. Best to pay zero heed to what they say.
Maybe Russia shouldn't have shit their pants so loudly when Ukraine got their first patriot.
Houston, we hit a nerve.
Maybe so. But have a merry Christmas and have a drink night. We've all been through some shit over the last year. I think Peace and good will towards all is in order.
Russia: *gasp* you do anything again, I'll react! This time I swear!
I hope this ends with V. Putin on the gallows
Next up, tomahawks?
Nearly every republican in the house voted against it
That’s a bit misleading since this was a vote for a giant omnibus bill. The Ukraine aid is honestly a drop in the bucket compared to the whole bill, which is quite large.
It’s really sad; not even sure what happened to GOP
Me either. I was mostly a republican voter until 2016... and they just kept going. This last election I didn't vote for a single republican, and honestly I can't see myself doing so again. If the state party apologized for saying Trump won 2020 and thoroughly distanced themselves from the whole MAGA thing, I'd consider it, but I can't see them doing so. And it's a shame. My state rep is a good man who has done a lot of good for our district, and for my family personally. Got the transportation department to actually do something after the 3rd vehicle went off the road into our fence. But as I told him this year, I can't vote for someone who is a part of and supports the republican party in our state. They denied what happened on Jan 6th, and voting for him means supporting them, and I won't. If he went independent I'd vote for him again gladly, but it's blue and grey for me, at least for the foreseeable future.
Similar for me... although I stopped voting for any Republicans in the mid 2000s. They lost the plot at some point. Just can't support them anymore. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was when I heard a few state politicians(CA) mocking people in the dairy industry dumb enough to vote for them. I realized then that they don't care about any of the people voting for them. Before someone says it...yeah it's probably the same on the other side as well.
2016? Republicans have been batshit crazies since at least 2008 with tea party. People kept voting for them, they kept getting worse and worse.
> Republicans have been batshit crazies since at least 2008 with tea party. Romney wasn't. His foreign policy was miles better than Obama, who did the infamous, 'reset' with Russia after the Russo-Georgia war, and in 2012 claimed that Al Quada was a greater strategic threat than Russia to American interests and mocked Romney for calling Russia one of our greatest geostrategic foes. 2022 has proved Romney right. And for me, foreign policy is one of the most important areas for presidential candidates. Romney was the better candidate there.
Their masters in Moscow said to.
Money hungry
It's all for show. They know it was gonna pass regardless but they got to appease their base.
We’ll see next year when they have a small majority. They could single handedly fuck this all up because Putin doesn’t have to worry about an opposition party getting in his way.
According to reddit's calculations in astronomy threads, these 45b could feed all of humanity for a trillion years, no more world hunger ever!
Not everyone, but it would more than sustain giving all school children in the country the ability to eat a healthy lunch, with about $15billion in change. Not saying we shouldn't support Ukraine, but to pretend we don't have the ability to solve problems here at home as well, for smaller price tag, is also disingenuous.
I Think the kids Will have a hard time eating military equipment
Yeah people seem to imagine us just shipping crates of cash over there.
Hmmm in that case we should produce more food and less military equipment.
We have so, so much food in this country that goes to waste. Really, distributing it better is a bigger factor than producing more.
Distributing it wouldn't be an issue if corporations and our government actually wanted everyone to have food. The issue is they don't have any interest in making sure all Americans are fed.
It’s way more complicated than that. Some corporations would benefit greatly from more people being fed, like Cargill and ADM. but, of course, they want the government to pay them for it (which makes sense). Then there are people in the government who want to do more and other who want to do less. We already have food stamps, food banks (that a lot of grocery stores have ongoing relationships with), and free and reduced cost school lunches. So there is an interest in feeding people. However, food stamps are very inadequate. Then there are also problems like getting food to those who need it, who have varying degrees of function. With such a big country, it’s not like you can just centrally distribute food easily and efficiently. Then there are also families where people struggling with addiction may sell their food stamps for money for drugs. And there are “food deserts” where there are few or no convenient grocery stores. But that’s not easy to fix. Grocery stores are a low margin business so a lot of factors can make running a grocery store unprofitable in an area (high rents but no ability to mark up, distribution/traffic/supply issues, shoplifting, uneven purchasing habits (seasonal or time of the month). I think some fixes, like substantially increasing food stamps, would help. But it’s hard to fix the problem altogether.
Kids get free lunch in ‘communist’ California.
It's a fun joke, but until they start setting up or taking over entire industry and running them by the state, they are no where near communist.
They are according to hard core republicans or fierce Trump supporters.
They, like my three year old, love to call people words they don't understand.
More money than Russia, Belarus and Iran put together..its like printing money. Basically in future those 3 countries are fuked to put it politely! Especially Russias who's military is going down and their economy! Good luck you little fuks
Ha Putin said the Patriots were outdated. Guess we'll see. Tanks, cough, for letting us know. We'll have to replace the ones that get used with something better... eh, shame.
Well maybe he meant outdated compared to the new toys we have lol.
Sounds like a good deal
US will spend 95 billion dollars on Ukraine. That is 20B more than India military spendings. Taiwan has a tiny 16.9B dollar military 2022 spending budget but 1/8th.
Hell yeah! Money well spent.
Boom....take that Putin...those missiles will have some spice on em... 45B....woaw
I know everyone here already knows this, but that's the most cost effective 45B the US would have spent since the Space Race
I mean yeah would you spend 0.002% of your yearly salary to fuck over someone whos trying to take a promotion from you at work? Imperfect analogy but the bang -for - buck ratio we’re getting on ukraines millitary aid is insane
Get fucked Russia looks like you wont be able to do shit once the Patriots come online lol
Patriot missiles are not a cure all, and it's weird that reddit thinks they are. It will also take months before they are all fully operational and the soldiers properly trained on how to use them.
Maybe not a cure all, but a significant improvement over the AA systems they're using currently. And they can both take down aircraft at long range, as well as ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. Park a few of these outside major cities and Russia's success rate drops significantly. These are, in fact, a pretty big game changer
45B is a number we haven't seen since the start of the war. The US Is sending ALOT of money. Really makes you see how big America's economic power is. And unlike Afghanistan and Iraq It's a good investment because Ukraine Is basically destroying Russia's army without a dingle American soldier dying and a war between it and the west. The US Is spending alot of money but this time It's actually going to be In It's favor.
I believe our support works out to be about 5-10% of our yearly military budget. And we’ve not even really given them our good stuff, that’s what makes the Ukrainian struggle all the more impressive
Really hope we can provide more humanitarian aid. It's criminally unfair the population of civilians are going to be freezing and starving over this fucking war that was started for no reason. Russia is destroying itself as well as putting innocent people in terrible danger of famine,disease, & exposure. This doesn't even include the obvious risk of death by random missle attacks on civilian targets.
A lot of the aids are humanitarian https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
Better get all that good shit in before republicans take control of the house.
What is the running total?
More needs to be done.. 101st should go in!!!
I don't see how this will make any difference when Russia just announced that they'll be providing boots and armor for their troops.
Still no universal healthcare. *Sighs* Sure it's not crates of cash they are sending, but damn the US sure has spent a lot of money making sure things are produced and shipped over.
> Still no universal healthcare That will take AT LEAST 60 Democrat seats in the Senate to get to the president's desk to sign. Because there is just no way the GOP won't filibuster it. AND it's unlikely Democrats have enough votes right now to "nuke" that option.
Yes - So make sure that you blame the right group for that failing. It’s being BLOCKED by the Republicans.
Be nice if I could get cheaper healthcare too
Healthcare.gov
Dems tried for universal healthcare. Blame republicans for the private for profit healthcare industry, most expensive of any developed country
The US already spends more on health care than anywhere in the world, the issue is access not money and certainly not 45 billion going to Ukraine
Fantastic fuck Russia
What does Aid actually mean? Does ukraine pay for the weapons? or are they given for free? How does it profit us?
They get it for free, and in return when this is over they become a US ally. This profits us because it lowers Russia as a threat, showing everyone that they can’t even conquer a weaker, former puppet state. This will stop enemy nations from allying with Russia, therefore allowing us to pivot to Asia to fend off China
Don’t forget you just made a freaking statement who the boss is. I mean overt the last 10 years world has been challenging towards USA, China and Russia were happy to pose as the great powers undermining US will and ability to defend allies. Welp. Not anymore. And world loves America once again. On top of that your strategic interest in having Central Europe heavily towards US right now is achieved.
It has been an absolute master class in 'aggressive negotiations." The politics it took would have been beyond Bernie Sanders. It actually seems like Biden was the best man for the job at this point in history.
Yep, and the domestic companies get paid by the US govt for supplying the resources to Ukraine for free. So there’s an economic stimulus aspect as well.
Free Once Ukraine returns to normal They will be an ally/repay back the US somehow.
Got it
The lend lease portion does have interest and a payment plan Other parts are straight up gifting
Free, and keep in mind that the majority of this stuff is already made surplus from the Cold War that would just end up rotting in a junkyard otherwise.
And since they are made in Alabama, it’s a $45 billion dollar job program.
Before I wasn't keen on military spending. This war changed my mind on that. I just fucking love how US keeps going: meh let's throw them another 45 bil lol
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Generally people are against folks who bomb schools and hospitals. Weird.
There is nothing wrong with a well funded military industrial complex. It’s the only thing America seems to actually be good at. I don’t know why this is a such a “automatically bad” thing. Is a government owned less efficient military industry complex better or something?
This is a good thing because the US can directly weaken It's enemies by It's sheer military industrial power and not lose a single soldier
All while bolstering the US’s own economy via the stimulus to those companies.
Good to see Americans working
I'd rather people (men, women, children) didn't freeze to death because someone kept targeting their electrical grid during the coldest part of the year. I mean, it's just an ever-growing list of war crimes, right? What's the big deal? Let's not pretend that money would have gone to something better in the US because there is no chance it would have. Not under Trump. Not under Biden. 9 million kids would still be food insecure, there would still be over a hundred billion in medical debt, and the pockets of weapons manufacturers would still be lined while they sat on their fat asses.
Well, it’s either support Ukraine and cripple Russia now, or risk getting drafted for US vs Russia war in the future.
Nothing to see here.. pretends 45 billion is being sent to aid Ukraine and not to line the pockets of U.S. weapons contractors.
Send them weapons. More have to be made to replace those weapons, companies making them are here in the U.S., company employs U.S. citizens. Money circulates through U.S. economy. Hopefully it’ll help our economy out.
> More have to be made to replace those weapons, companies making them are here in the U.S., company employs U.S. citizens. Money circulates through U.S. economy. Hopefully it’ll help our economy out. Seems like it would be more efficient to help people directly than dump a bunch of public funds into weapons manufacturing and hope a little bit of it trickles down to the rest of us.
I’m sure that’s the garbage Raytheon is saying
They need food first, they can’t waste time making their own food and they can’t use weapons if they all can’t eat daily. But yeah after food send them weapons
Healthcare for all? Nah, we gotta get those missiles for all first.