No...2v2 is historically dominated by resto druid. It's so dominant in this specific bracket that even in patches when there is another healer that is clearly overtuned, resto druid can still compete and even outperform them.
What about the folks like me who play nothing but 2s? Why would you remove 2s when logically you remove 3s to get more people into solo. Ill tell you right now the people who spam 2s are not queing 3s or solo bc we dont like the absurd randomness of it.
That's what I mean by facilitating 3v3. New players find 3v3 too fast and overwhelming so they stick to 2v2. They need to ditch the 100 pets and random summoned nameplates, reduce number of micro CC (with shared talent nodes for cc), reduce number of garbage buffs/debuffs, reduce class mobility and 1shots.. and so on
The 1trick hunter above just complained about classes that scale different between 3v3 and 2v2. That is why I think 2v2 should be completely considered a skirmish bracket same as MOBAs have 1 lane all mid, but anything competitive is 5v5 format.
The reality is arena 3v3 is not "random".. if you know where to look, everything makes sense. And 2v2 is a very slow bracket that encourages bad gameplay (once you play the game for a while).
again, thanks for speaking for me, im glad you know what everyone likes and doesnt like. Saying 'the reality is' doesnt make the following statement a fucking fact. How bout play what u want and dont come after other peoples fucking game modes? Or maybe pay attention to how much your getting downvoted and think 'the reality may be I am an idiot'
Who said anything about it fixing rng?
The point of shuffle was that instead of queing into a situation where you're playing say pres double dev into havoc survival rdru you instead have the opportunity to play every combination of those classes to help smooth out the rng of bad comps.
In hindsight the juice may not be worth the squeeze but the idea was great.
I don't think anyone is criticizing the initial intention. But as you said, if you come to the realization that it did not achieve its purpose,.. why not improve upon it. Solo Que is a success story.
> Who said anything about it fixing rng?
Well Blizz did when they introduced the format. They didn't go with a true one-and-done soloqueue because people would (understandably) complain about getting grouped into a really bad comp (and/or facing a really solid comp).
What Blizz, and many of us (myself included), didn't realize is that instead of getting the occasional bad comp/match - you now get the occasional bad *lobby* (e.g. only caster in melee lobby or only melee in all caster) and endure six rough matches instead of just one.
In the long run it probably works out to be about the same - but psychologically it's much more disheartening getting into a bad lobby than it would have been with a one-and-done IMO.
? The triple dragon game was the hardest one as rdruid. Triple AOE purge of all hots while they're all running around casting while moving, immune to kicks.
This is 2.9 MMR btw
Wish I could make cry posts like this everytime I get 3 hunters in a lobby as a mage. Happens so often, that I would get kicked of this subreddit for spamming though :< …
Imagine keeping 1 hot up in any round. Same goes for lobbies with 1 melee vs 3 casters in large map, or 1 caster vs zugzug melee in small map.
One of the overlooked issues is that shuffle doesn't change maps too, as opposed to 6 1-round games. So not only does it not improve RNG, it makes it much worse.
If blizzard were decent developers, they would admit their mistake and just remove the entire flawed format and make soloqueue the way it was supposed to be done with 1-round normal damp and shared mmr pool between dps and healers.
> Shuffle is the largest PvP ladder right now, and has been all expansion long.
Biggest mistake they've ever made is Shuffle, and if you think =/= participation alone suggests it's not you're wildly mistaken.
> Queuing into rbg/arena from anywhere "it Will kill the game", not having to grind rank 14 or other certain rating breakpoinst for best gear "no goal for players"
>
>
Nope, I actually think PVP arena without other aspects of the game should be free to play with no gear advantage. Or at least with no need to buy the expansion. You want transmogs / PVE / explore the actual world? You start paying up like we do now.
The point was that ALL 6 rounds are disadvantageous for the rdruid in that lobby (DH and hunter have purge as well). I listed a lot of CONS of shuffle format in a below post. The RNG was the ONE thing it was supposed to fix and it doesn't even do that.
The correct "play" for me was to just leave before the first round, which btw, is not punished because of, you guessed it, 6 round format.
Just to add on your points:
* "Dog of the Lob"- Problem. I.e. the person that goes 0:6, which makes the whole shuffle lobby pointless.
* Healer MMR Issue / Healer Duel
* Increased frustration & vitriol, if someone is not doing so great in a lobby
* Having to do 6 rounds in one go
There are so many downsides, and the only upside I can see is the reduction in loading screens. This probably accounts for an overall reduction in queue time. Unfortunately, I fear that they will not change the format for another decade.
Every system is going to have some positives and negatives. At least playing 6 rounds with the same people should balance things a bit. I don't think it's perfect, but what would be even worse than being in a lobby with "the dog" is playing only with him for a game or two, never against him.
I would also say that there something fun playing with the same people. You get to learn a bit about how they play, how to punish them or play with them. If it was just one game I personally would find it more frustrating. Is it frustrating at times, yes, but I don't think you're every removing everything that can be annoying.
Nothing being perfect is not a good argument against having something better imo.
The biggest supposed upside of 6 rounds with the same people doesn't even really work.
Right now you could play 2 (3 if heals) rounds with a person doing very badly who then leaves, get in another lobby where you play 2-3 rounds with a person doing terrible who then leaves and end up having waited an hour worth of queues only to get 4-6 games that were essentially out of your control. This should balance over time, but is still an absolutely terrible experience.
The odds of anything like this are drastically higher with current system, because the entire thing encourages dogpiling the weak link for easy rounds, rather than 1 round format where every match might have different people.
It makes the games even more tilting (can't leave, potentially get tunnelled non-stop for 5 more rounds if you died round 1), makes leaving worse on everyone (far longer queues, bigger rating hits).
It wouldn't be perfect, but I imagine the benefits would far outweigh the downsides of switching to a 1 round system, essentially rated skirms
My point is that better in one area might mean worse in another. Personally I think it wouldn't solve the issues that people are generally complaining about.
I would also dislike the system more. I can imagine the amount of frustration you'd feel when you get in a lobby and it's stacked against you so you just have to write the game off completely. The amount of "hurrdurr can't win go next" would be quite high I feel like. At least with 6 rounds you're A. More committed and B. You can try to figure out how to get a small win out of the lobby (like a win or two).
Explanation for what?
Cons of awful solo shuffle format:
- healer mmr. can't have shared mmr pool between dps and healers because of the way shuffling works
- difference between dps and healer role mmr in lobby leading to bad games, instead of simpler average TEAM mmr with shared pool
- healer gameplay. 80+ damp games takes healer involvement out the window and you're left depending entirely on your dps after the first 2 minutes of the round
- griefing last rounds. If it was 1 round there would be no griefing cause there would be no time. The game would end and you queue up again
- queue times. NOT TOTAL TIME PLAYED! Rather sit 5 min and play 1 game than 30 minutes to play 6. Any shuffle game means a 15-20 (gametime) + 20 min+ average wait time = 40 min in total time involvement
- weak link. Last rounds end in training the weak link. If you're the healer that is unlucky to play that guy all the last rounds, you will lose, while the other healer may have got a lucky win because the weak link was not yet found
- WINTRADING. NO MORE DECLINING THE QUEUE WITH NO PENALTY. Lower queue time = you can apply CR/MMR penalty to whoever dodges the queue. High MMR end of season is always the same thing with 10 declines until wintraders get in the shuffle lobby they desire
and so on
Pros:
- none
If you don't like rng you can always push 2v2 Resto druids almost every game, every season
You misspelled priest
No...2v2 is historically dominated by resto druid. It's so dominant in this specific bracket that even in patches when there is another healer that is clearly overtuned, resto druid can still compete and even outperform them.
Doesn’t change that every game pasts 2k is priest priest priest priest
I don't play 2v2 and I think it should be removed from the game while facilitating 3v3 access for everyone.
What about the folks like me who play nothing but 2s? Why would you remove 2s when logically you remove 3s to get more people into solo. Ill tell you right now the people who spam 2s are not queing 3s or solo bc we dont like the absurd randomness of it.
That's what I mean by facilitating 3v3. New players find 3v3 too fast and overwhelming so they stick to 2v2. They need to ditch the 100 pets and random summoned nameplates, reduce number of micro CC (with shared talent nodes for cc), reduce number of garbage buffs/debuffs, reduce class mobility and 1shots.. and so on The 1trick hunter above just complained about classes that scale different between 3v3 and 2v2. That is why I think 2v2 should be completely considered a skirmish bracket same as MOBAs have 1 lane all mid, but anything competitive is 5v5 format. The reality is arena 3v3 is not "random".. if you know where to look, everything makes sense. And 2v2 is a very slow bracket that encourages bad gameplay (once you play the game for a while).
>The 1trick hunter Excuse me sir I'll have you know that im mediocre on more classes than just hunter
again, thanks for speaking for me, im glad you know what everyone likes and doesnt like. Saying 'the reality is' doesnt make the following statement a fucking fact. How bout play what u want and dont come after other peoples fucking game modes? Or maybe pay attention to how much your getting downvoted and think 'the reality may be I am an idiot'
Uhoh fun detected, better remove. Sounds like we have a Blizzard employee here
Who said anything about it fixing rng? The point of shuffle was that instead of queing into a situation where you're playing say pres double dev into havoc survival rdru you instead have the opportunity to play every combination of those classes to help smooth out the rng of bad comps. In hindsight the juice may not be worth the squeeze but the idea was great.
I don't think anyone is criticizing the initial intention. But as you said, if you come to the realization that it did not achieve its purpose,.. why not improve upon it. Solo Que is a success story.
It’s what keeps me playing tbh
> Who said anything about it fixing rng? Well Blizz did when they introduced the format. They didn't go with a true one-and-done soloqueue because people would (understandably) complain about getting grouped into a really bad comp (and/or facing a really solid comp). What Blizz, and many of us (myself included), didn't realize is that instead of getting the occasional bad comp/match - you now get the occasional bad *lobby* (e.g. only caster in melee lobby or only melee in all caster) and endure six rough matches instead of just one. In the long run it probably works out to be about the same - but psychologically it's much more disheartening getting into a bad lobby than it would have been with a one-and-done IMO.
? The triple dragon game was the hardest one as rdruid. Triple AOE purge of all hots while they're all running around casting while moving, immune to kicks. This is 2.9 MMR btw
Everyone's at the same disadvantage. Skill will prevail.
Wish I could make cry posts like this everytime I get 3 hunters in a lobby as a mage. Happens so often, that I would get kicked of this subreddit for spamming though :< …
Imagine keeping 1 hot up in any round. Same goes for lobbies with 1 melee vs 3 casters in large map, or 1 caster vs zugzug melee in small map. One of the overlooked issues is that shuffle doesn't change maps too, as opposed to 6 1-round games. So not only does it not improve RNG, it makes it much worse. If blizzard were decent developers, they would admit their mistake and just remove the entire flawed format and make soloqueue the way it was supposed to be done with 1-round normal damp and shared mmr pool between dps and healers.
Shuffle is the largest PvP ladder right now, and has been all expansion long. What mistake?
> Shuffle is the largest PvP ladder right now, and has been all expansion long. Biggest mistake they've ever made is Shuffle, and if you think =/= participation alone suggests it's not you're wildly mistaken.
You gave a total amount of zero reasons why shuffle was a mistake.
Any type of solo queue system would be the biggest ladder.. like any private server that had solo queue working for 10+ years.
[удалено]
> Queuing into rbg/arena from anywhere "it Will kill the game", not having to grind rank 14 or other certain rating breakpoinst for best gear "no goal for players" > > Nope, I actually think PVP arena without other aspects of the game should be free to play with no gear advantage. Or at least with no need to buy the expansion. You want transmogs / PVE / explore the actual world? You start paying up like we do now. The point was that ALL 6 rounds are disadvantageous for the rdruid in that lobby (DH and hunter have purge as well). I listed a lot of CONS of shuffle format in a below post. The RNG was the ONE thing it was supposed to fix and it doesn't even do that. The correct "play" for me was to just leave before the first round, which btw, is not punished because of, you guessed it, 6 round format.
[удалено]
I'd say even more: druids have an antidispel talent that will rip evokers quite hard.
Just to add on your points: * "Dog of the Lob"- Problem. I.e. the person that goes 0:6, which makes the whole shuffle lobby pointless. * Healer MMR Issue / Healer Duel * Increased frustration & vitriol, if someone is not doing so great in a lobby * Having to do 6 rounds in one go There are so many downsides, and the only upside I can see is the reduction in loading screens. This probably accounts for an overall reduction in queue time. Unfortunately, I fear that they will not change the format for another decade.
Every system is going to have some positives and negatives. At least playing 6 rounds with the same people should balance things a bit. I don't think it's perfect, but what would be even worse than being in a lobby with "the dog" is playing only with him for a game or two, never against him. I would also say that there something fun playing with the same people. You get to learn a bit about how they play, how to punish them or play with them. If it was just one game I personally would find it more frustrating. Is it frustrating at times, yes, but I don't think you're every removing everything that can be annoying.
Nothing being perfect is not a good argument against having something better imo. The biggest supposed upside of 6 rounds with the same people doesn't even really work. Right now you could play 2 (3 if heals) rounds with a person doing very badly who then leaves, get in another lobby where you play 2-3 rounds with a person doing terrible who then leaves and end up having waited an hour worth of queues only to get 4-6 games that were essentially out of your control. This should balance over time, but is still an absolutely terrible experience. The odds of anything like this are drastically higher with current system, because the entire thing encourages dogpiling the weak link for easy rounds, rather than 1 round format where every match might have different people. It makes the games even more tilting (can't leave, potentially get tunnelled non-stop for 5 more rounds if you died round 1), makes leaving worse on everyone (far longer queues, bigger rating hits). It wouldn't be perfect, but I imagine the benefits would far outweigh the downsides of switching to a 1 round system, essentially rated skirms
My point is that better in one area might mean worse in another. Personally I think it wouldn't solve the issues that people are generally complaining about. I would also dislike the system more. I can imagine the amount of frustration you'd feel when you get in a lobby and it's stacked against you so you just have to write the game off completely. The amount of "hurrdurr can't win go next" would be quite high I feel like. At least with 6 rounds you're A. More committed and B. You can try to figure out how to get a small win out of the lobby (like a win or two).
You've just made claims. You don't have any support or explanation for your opinions.
Explanation for what? Cons of awful solo shuffle format: - healer mmr. can't have shared mmr pool between dps and healers because of the way shuffling works - difference between dps and healer role mmr in lobby leading to bad games, instead of simpler average TEAM mmr with shared pool - healer gameplay. 80+ damp games takes healer involvement out the window and you're left depending entirely on your dps after the first 2 minutes of the round - griefing last rounds. If it was 1 round there would be no griefing cause there would be no time. The game would end and you queue up again - queue times. NOT TOTAL TIME PLAYED! Rather sit 5 min and play 1 game than 30 minutes to play 6. Any shuffle game means a 15-20 (gametime) + 20 min+ average wait time = 40 min in total time involvement - weak link. Last rounds end in training the weak link. If you're the healer that is unlucky to play that guy all the last rounds, you will lose, while the other healer may have got a lucky win because the weak link was not yet found - WINTRADING. NO MORE DECLINING THE QUEUE WITH NO PENALTY. Lower queue time = you can apply CR/MMR penalty to whoever dodges the queue. High MMR end of season is always the same thing with 10 declines until wintraders get in the shuffle lobby they desire and so on Pros: - none
Why it's bad now and how your idea improves anything.
Well, the idea is a single round format, which he basically said in the first post you commented to.