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Isn't this the author who thinks owns the concept of having sun-related powers? She calls all the drama Sungate.
edit: yup, that's her. I would take her experience with a grain of salt. Having an author with bad reputation surely doesn't look good for publishers.
Yeah. No, this is someone who has shown themselves as bad press, and poisoned their chances that way. By not picking her up, they don't have to drop her later.
She failed to consider that not only are sun-related powers common, but that they appear in the folklore of the other author's culture. It's absolutely nuts to look at somebody inspired by their own culture and still try to tell them "I did it first, and I'm going to sue you"!
She's gonna have a hard time tracking down a 6th century Welsh poet to accuse. I don't have any characters with sun-related powers at the moment but I almost want to create one out of spite.
It’s kind of sad how many people go through the whole effort of writing a book only to pull the rug out from under themselves by having no understanding how how publishing works, and/or self-publishing when that isn’t really what they wanted.
The problem is, as someone who has not yet published, I constantly read that it's extremely hard to get picked up by a traditional publisher. According to others, you need a combination of a well-written story (duh) that neatly fits into a genre mold, doesn't push the boundaries (safe), usually with extensive professional editing ($$), know someone or otherwise have an "in" with the industry, somehow already have a catalog of other published works, and be willing to dedicate hours upon hours for months to researching publishers, writing proposals, and constantly being rejected. Oh, and after all of that, you have to have good timing and get lucky.
That is incredibly daunting for someone who just wants to write a few stories on the side. I have a series I'm working on. I would like it to be well-written and edited, and it would make me happy if others read and enjoyed it, but it's not my career and never will be my career. It's just one of several hobbies.
Maybe I'm over thinking this, but this is what I've gathered from reading the experiences of others.
If you just want to write a few stories on the side, then you can do that. If you want to sell books, that’s a different story and does take investment, either in the form of money if you self-publish, or time if you want to try the traditional route. Being an author is unfortunately not just about writing, but it’s not impossible. For most authors, whether traditionally published or not, it’s not their main career, but it is a second job.
A lot of people think the work of being a writer is the writing, but if you want strangers to read your work, there’s a whole other job on top of the writing that is entirely non-optional.
You do not need extensive professional editing. That’s the publisher’s job. But *you* have to have edited it to the best of your own ability before you start querying, and a lot of authors either don’t have a strong enough grasp of English to do this - in which case they were never going to get published in the first place - or don’t want to bother editing their rough draft and think the rough draft should be good enough, which is isn’t in like 99% of cases.
r/PubTips is the place to go if you want to learn about the actual realities.
If your book is something people want to read and you're willing to follow basic guidelines, the odds aren't actually as bad as all that.
Consider writing contests!! You can enter them regularly with shorter-form pieces to stay consistent + get published in different places. Short stories, publishing deals, etc. can come out of them as prizes/being noticed from them
It really depends on why you want to write. It’s very true that agents and publishers want stories that are safer and more marketable. It’s very true that you can have a very well-written story that no agent will touch since there’s no pre-existing sizable market. Which matters more to you, trying to get more sales, or telling the story you want to tell?
A lot of people see a trad pub as a mark of legitimacy, though there are plenty of trad pub books that are objectively bad and won’t sell after a brief flash in the pan. Will Colleen Hoover’s books stand the test of time? No. EL James’s didn’t either, nor did Shane Dawson’s or Colleen Ballinger’s. Trad pubs only care about what will make as much money as fast as possible. They don’t like taking risks since, while risks can occasionally pay off big, the number of risks it can take to find that one that pays off might not be worth the trouble. So they play it safe and want more of what’s sold.
A lot of people see trad pub as a sign of quality though…fuck no, some of those books are barely edited. But again, the publishers don’t care as long as they can make a bunch of money right now. They don’t care if those books are bird cage liner in a few months.
There can be a sense of selling out when you go this route though, since you have to write for the market, even if it means telling a story you don’t want to tell, or scaling back elements that meant a lot to you. Some people’s focus is on the money, and so they don’t care, but other people care more about telling the story they want to read.
A big downside to a trad pub, aside from that aspect, is that you will give up so much control, from the title to how the cover looks (some authors openly hate how their covers look so much that they don’t even want to see those books) to the layout to literally everything. You may also lose rights to additional books you haven’t even written yet.
That can be excruciating when you wrote the story you wanted. I’ve written books that could easily be edited into mainstream, but that would be me selling out and giving someone else all the control, and I don’t like that.
Indie writers can take bigger risks than trads, and those books can easily be much, much better, more gripping, unpredictable, and better edited. There is a market for indie books. I personally rarely read anything trad anymore. I’m sick and tired of the same bullshit and proselytizing.
A big thing to keep in mind:
Success for trad pub is only about the money. It doesn’t matter how good a story is, how proud you are of it, how much it can move a reader, nothing. You are a failure if your book doesn’t make enough money, and I’ve seen people devastated over this. Your success is largely out of your control.
Success for indie is the book itself. That is entirely within your control. Money is a nice bonus, but not making a lot doesn’t make you a failure since your success was in the book being created.
To disclose:
I’m that writer who doesn’t care how legitimate others see my work. If they think it’s lesser than because I won’t make them mainstream, then try to sell them off to an agent and publisher, so? I know what’s in them, and that they’re the stories I want. I write for the passion of it, not for the goal of dollars. My first trilogy was written with the goal of getting an agent, and I walked from that when I was getting great feedback from interested agents…but they consistently wanted me to make the same changes to make my characters more mainstream even though I wrote them how they were since I was disgusted by the mainstream. I didn’t want Tristan to be a controlling asshole like Edward Cullen, and I didn’t want Juliette to be a helpless stupid vapid damsel like Bella Swan. I learned through that that I had to decide what mattered.
So I walked away from some standing offers of rep contingent on modifications I wasn’t comfortable with. Anti-Edwards and anti-Bellas were a risk the traditional industry wasn‘t willing to take at the time. So I went the self-pub route, had a handful of sales, but had more than one reviewer on Goodreads and Amazon write about how my books helped them see abuse in their own relationships and escape, and one reader reached out directly about it to thank me.
My current books are the sort that I’ve been told would probably do VERY well on the trad market, but I’m not willing to risk it, and I’m not willing to give control over them over to a trad pub. Like you, I’m not here for the money—I’m here for love of the craft. If you don’t want to turn what you love into a business where success is dollars and you’re a failure if you don’t bring in enough, go indie, but if you‘re willing to risk rejection and to be told to make changes you may not want to make, but it’s worth it to say you got a trad deal, then write for the mainstream.
> I didn’t want Tristan to be a controlling asshole like Edward Cullen, and I didn’t want Juliette to be a helpless stupid vapid damsel like Bella Swan.
This issue is dear to me. My characters are complex and multi-faceted. They are not flat archetypes. They are all a little older and have had life happen to them. None are written to look like Quasimodo, but neither are they beautiful. They lead full lives and aren't limited by the stereotypes I usually read. These things are very important to me.
Furthermore, my story is all about shades of gray. It can't be boiled down to good vs. evil. Everyone must make choices and they suffer the consequences. The characters are also all smaller pieces of a complex world. They aren't superheroes.
In a nutshell, the goal of the series is to explore what would happen if you dropped five average 30 year olds into an abstracted, fantastical version of our world and told each one to pursue a different goal.
I think my story is compelling and I'd like to write and edit it in a way that others do too, even if it never makes a best seller list or makes much money.
Ive read an excerpt of her book that someone annotated on twitter (with red pen lol) and I'll be honest, I'm not sure she DID go through the effort of writing a book. I'm not an expert in AI, but her book reads like AI. It's so inconsistent and choppy in a way that isn't just bad writing, in my opinion.
Any good post or links for that advice?
I just want to get my story out into the world so I was more or less planing to release it for free. I don't need to make money because I have a good day job in a field that isn't going anywhere.
My basic plan is to start getting the story out there once I have the first "book" mostly done. Then edit and refine the book. Once that is done, pivot to making it into a motion comic or something with AI.
yeah but that's a good, well written, well reviewed and probably well selling indie. if you don't have that then the stuff written about how publishers look at it definitely applies.
I work in the publishing industry. He is 100% right. Self pubs almost never get picked up. And here is the kicker: even if you don't self pub your second book, if you self pubbed your first, it will be very very hard to find a publisher unless your first book sold really well.
Start in self pubbing, and it's very hard to become trad published. I don't care if it's your 3rd book and it has never been published before. You set yourself a track record and a history.
It's much much easier to go trad pub to self pub, so if you think you may ever want to traditionally publish, try to do it FIRST.
Can you give more detail? I always thought any amount of publishing would make someone more attractive overall. Why would being able to look and see that an author has self published and been successful make them less attractive traditionally?
What is your definition of successful? Because unless you can move several thousand copies, you are not successful in the eyes of a traditional publisher or agent.
Just self pubbing means you had some disposable income to buy a self publishing service. It means nothing. Sales are all that really matter, and unless you have sold several thousand copies, you will find getting an agent or publisher harder.
This is the standard for self pubbed or traditionally published authors who are selling a second book. You don't get a break because you self pubbed.
Ah ok, for me I wouldn't call myself successful as a self published author unless I was making enough to live on so that matches up.
My expectations were that if someone was successful, it would actually be easier to work traditionally because the inverse would be true, they could look and see you know how to write and market. Do you agree?
Yes, if you are a successful self pub author, you are easier to sell to a trad publisher.
But if you are a successful self pub author, then you may not want to go trad publishing. You'd have to look at your business model and see what a trad publisher could do for you.
Also, most people start thinking they will be successful, realize it's a third job on top of what they already do and writing itself, and then look for a publisher after they already self pubbed. Which is why I suggest trying trad publishing first and then doing self pub unless you are very confident in your ability to move books.
There are no hard and fast rules, but there are trends.
Okay, no one should ever be ghosted. That is just terrible and not professional at all.
But, yes, a flop does make it harder to sell a second book. At that point, my advice to my author would be to try something new, like a genre switch or a different age range. It's not impossible to sell after a flop, but it does make it hard - exactly like selling after an unsuccessful self pub. See, it doesn't matter if it is a self pub or trad, it's hard to sell a second book after you have established a crappy sales record.
It's not impossible, but it is harder, and at least if you sold a flop with a trad publisher, you may already have an agent who can help guide you. It's harder to get an agent after the flop, but if you already have one, you are in a better position. Do you need an agent? No, but it helps.
As for "draconian" contracts, I don't really know what you mean. Sounds like there are specific things you take issue with. I have read some bad contracts, even advised a client to walk away from one, but I haven't had an author sign any that were unfair. It's a business deal, so it's best if all parties are happy. But, it's a business deal and if you don't negotiate or just let the other side dictate terms, you may lose a lot.
Sounds like you prefer self pubbing in general, though. Good! I am glad you know what you want.
Genuine question, couldn’t people just query under a different pen name than they used to self publish? And if a publisher is bothering to do enough digging to find that their promising new writer and NoName McSelfy are one and the same, they were probably already seriously considering the book, so is it really enough to be a dealbreaker?
I’ve had friends who self published before becoming traditionally published. One languished for years with poor sales but enjoyed an increase in popularity when a well known established trad author enjoyed and promoted his work. Others had multiple early books with poor sales before achieving a breakout hit.
But another thing I’ve noticed is that if you actually do have decent sales self publishing— by no means easy to do — you’re making enough in royalties above what you would from a trad publisher to more than make up for the initial investment on cover art, editing etc. Many of my friends have mentioned seeing a decrease in pay after going trad, and several decided to go back to self publishing.
A) As an agent, if you lie to me and tell me that you never published anything before and then I find out that you did, I'd drop you because you lied to me. I don't do business with people who lie to me. And if you used your real name on the self-pubs, I will find out. Publishing is contracts and contracts have to be done with legal names.
B) Yes, if a publisher finds out that an author actually does have a sales track record and it sucks, that can be enough of a reason to not make an offer. After all, if the writing is okay, but not amazing, and the author has shown they can't move their own books, then it's not worth polishing the writing to become amazing because that is a lot of work. If they find out after you sign a publishing deal or they make an offer, it gets murky and will depend on the contract and the personalities involved. (You will also piss off your agent. See bullet A above.)
And C) "But another thing I’ve noticed is that if you actually do have decent sales self publishing— by no means easy to do — you’re making enough in royalties above what you would from a trad publisher to more than make up for the initial investment on cover art, editing etc. Many of my friends have mentioned seeing a decrease in pay after going trad, and several decided to go back to self publishing." - 100%. This is why most folk who are self-pubbed and querying agents are not successful. If they were successful, they wouldn't be querying me because most successful self-pubbed people are quite happy with their returns on investment.
In my experience, those who do go trad publishing usually do so because they want the added publicity and credibility (usually more for nonfiction authors) or they don't want to deal with the hassle of sales and cover art anymore.
Been a few years since I tried querying, but while one or two agents had querytracker questions asking if the specific book was published before, I don’t remember any of them demanding to know if I’d ever self published anything ever.
In the end I did choose self publishing because it seemed like a better deal if you’re good at it, and even if my first book’s sales were mediocre, I can still try more, and self publishing doesn’t arbitrarily punish you for life for every little misstep like trad seems very eager to do according to these comments.
Sounds like you have a system that works for you! That is good!
And no, even I don't have that on my query tracker. But I would expect it to come out in conversation and I don't know an agent who signs a client without first talking at least.
As for trad publishing punishing authors for life's missteps, that's why agents work for the author. It's my job to protect my authors, but YMMV and I can't speak to others' experiences.
I don’t doubt your experience, but I want to offer the other side of this for anyone reading.
I’m not a publisher, but I have a couple friends who are and their mantra is “publishers don’t buy books, they buy small businesses”. Basically, an unknown author with no track record is going to have a much harder time getting published than someone who has sold books, built an audience, and shown they know how to market themselves - because publishers still want you to do that even after they sign you.
Oh, you are 100% correct. They are buying little mini brands and want brands with audiences. This is why almost all nonfiction books these days seem to come from influencers.
The challenge is a lot of self pub authors are not successful businesses, particularly in fiction, which is what I see most on this sub. Most folk who are self pubbed and come to agents are not doing so because they have sold a lot of books. They are doing so because they haven't.
And while it's easier for someone with a good sales record to get published than someone with a blank slate, it is MUCH harder for someone with a poor record to get published than someone with a blank slate. Blank slates allow the publisher or agent to see potential without any countering history. They can see where they can imprint on the marketing or the author to build them from scratch without any previous numbers forcing them to think smaller.
In other words, unless you are very confident you can sell a few thousand copies, try traditional first. You can always go to self pub, but it is harder to go the other way.
If you haven't published anything else in those 10 years, and you have something new, I say give it another go at traditional. 10 years is a long time and a different market.
You still need to have a good explanation for why the self pub didn't sell well (assuming it didn't), but you can say "wrong market" and probably get away with it. Then, just like a debut author, focus on what you will do this time that will make the result better than last time.
But, yeah, 10 years is long enough to give trad another try.
Editing to add: Just for clarity, it still has to be a new book. You can't really just go out with the same thing you already published. OP's point about first rights is still true. You could possibly get away with it if you change it significantly, but then you better have a really really good explanation for the poor sales, even a decade ago. In other words, it makes it much harder.
>but then you better have a really really good explanation for the poor sales, even a decade ago.
Would "I never intended to market it, the process was part of a project to learn how to take a book from concept to publication" work as a reason?
For my final project for High school I chose to write and publish a book; that was in 2012. I do plan on rewriting it at some point because it *suuuucked* in mechanical skill, but the concept was solid, imo. But mostly I do have other works Id like to publish today.
Also, would "I was broke and 18" also work as a reason? Because that was true too lol
Phrase it this way: My submission is based on a high school senior project. This is a new book inspired by that early project.
Don't say it is the same book. You are rewriting it. It is based on your high school project. It is not the same thing.
And if you phrase the project as a high school assignment, then it puts the book in another category and absolves you of it not selling.
That said, I would go out first with one of your new projects and save the rewritten high school project for book 2 or 3. Let yourself get an adult track record first to more firmly separate it from your teenaged work.
You're right, they wouldn't know. But I would personally count it as dishonest if you said you had never published anything before and you had. And if you lied to me, I wouldn't want to keep working with you.
As mentioned above, the reaction with a publisher would depend on the contract language and personalities involved.
I think it's always best to be honest with your business partners. Agents and authors have to work together and the agent works for you. Do you really want to lie to your business partners?
Thank you for your response. I have a question about bias, if you don't mind.
I intended to use Kindle Unlimited to churn out a few quick, smutty, junk-food-for-the-imagination type paranormal fantasy romance novels under a pen name. Those seem to be popular. Frankly, I was hoping to make a little money while prepping something with more of me in it. I'm an artist, so I'm also drawing an a kids' book to publish under yet another name. Kids' books don't do so well on KU, but it's easy to do. I didn't think minimal success on any of these would tank the potential of the novel that has my heart behind it. I planned to submit it when it's perfect, as long as that takes.
If I need to disclose any books published under KU to any agent who notices my real work, would the fluff stuff bias the agent and publishers against me? I'm a bit discouraged to learn my plan may be self-sabotage.
Broadly speaking, perhaps? The novel is a dark fairy tale grounded in a modern real world setting. It's fantasy with a romantic, non-spicy subplot. Nothing graphic, merely suggested and the love interest isn't the focus at all. The fluff is romance but it is fantasy. I'd presume the adult content and romance focus move it to a different category despite the fantasy setting.
I do truly appreciate your information. Maybe I should defantasize my fluff, lol.
That sounds pretty safe to me. Still best to keep it as different as possible, but raunchy paranormal romance is a different audience than contemporary or urban fantasy with a romance subplot.
Really hammer that home in your discussions with agents, that the audience is different.
It’s rare but true. The Martian by Andy Weir and Wool by Hugh Howey were both like that if I’m not mistaken. But those were both amazingly well written books that took off, and publishers jumped in after the fact to sign them and make money.
My first traditionally published book was one that I self-published first. Three different publishers approached me about it and I eventually decided to work with one of them.
The thing is, though, I didn't query that book. I was already an established indie author with a fairly big following and I just published that book for my readers to enjoy. The publishers came to me; I didn't go to them. When indie books do get picked up by tradpub, that's the way it usually happens. The publishers move on the book, not vice-versa.
did these publishers ask for any money up front?
not to be rude, but every self pub gets approached by vanity publishers. it’s part of their business model.
That's a valid question, and it's good to ask so that other writers know what to beware of.
No, they were all legitimate traditional publishers who paid advances and had normal contracts with reversion clauses and the whole nine yards. One was a smallish imprint of a Big Five publisher. Two were independent presses that had good reputations.
I ended up working with one of the independent presses and have been with them ever since. I've done lots of books for them by now, under two different names. Some have hit bestseller lists and three have won awards. So in this case, it was legit (though I approached it with caution and researched each press very thoroughly to be sure. Every writer should do the same.)
ETA: important to note that they approached me because I was kicking ass as an indie author and was routinely landing on the Amazon Top 100 list among these publishers' other titles. So they kept seeing my books over and over again, out-selling the stuff they were already publishing 😆 You don't typically get approached by legitimate publishers unless you've already figured out how to make your indie books sell like hotcakes.
A book failing to find its audience is not proving there’s no market, it’s just “proving” that the book hasn’t found its market. Which is a problem in tradpub too considering how many pub houses are shirking their responsibilities and putting responsibility for all marketing back on the author (a thing that most authors, like it or not, are abysmal at).
There has always been too much emphasis on out-the-gate sales and presales when there is literally nothing stopping anyone, tradpub or self-published, from re-releasing their work and doing a big pr/marketing push on stuff that’s already been released. In fact, it’s the best way self-pub authors can tend to their bottom line.
This is why I am just sticking to my query letters. The greatest thing I did was listen to a professor I work with, she is a published author and her first book she self published and failed miserably. She learned and moved on and wrote a new series, and now she is retiring early because her romance series took off with an indie publishing. But she warned me to stay far away and delay the gratification, otherwise you are going to end in tears.
This is why I'm pursuing tradpub and not considering self-publication at all. I don't have faith that I can keep track of all the moving parts, or afford all the up-front costs necessary to give myself a decent chance.
While traditional publishers do less for authors than most assume, it's still more than I could do on my own. I'd benefit from their expertise, professional presentation, be more likely to land on bookstore shelves, and cover art from somebody who knows how to draw attention. To me that's way too much to give up for the sake of being published faster.
It depends what goal you set for yourself. If your goal is to have a professional published book, or series, then yes, I'd stay far, far away from self-publishing. However, if your goal is merely to publish a book, or to simply set your series out into the world, then I think self-publishing is something worth looking into (though, obviously, it is not the best choice for everybody).
You're not wrong. However.
Self-publishing is a great avenue for writers who have stories that don't have mainstream appeal or are very niche or have themes and subject matter that publishers are hesitant to take.
If you are going to self-publish a book, do so with the understanding that a publisher may not want to pick it up later.
But understand that even if you plan to look for an agent for other works, that doesn’t mean you can't also Self-publish some stuff.
This author also tried to sue another author for “copyright claims” because both of their characters used “sun powers”. When told that no one person owns “the sun” or any magical powers under it, Lauren M Davis countered with “but she doesn’t have sun *powers*, she *harnesses* the *power* of the sun which is completely different.” Not to mention the character in question is a side character, not the titular character or even the one who appears on the cover.
Yeah this sucks for her, but also this writer overall is a fucking headache who’s pissed off quite a few people.
([source](https://www.distractify.com/p/lauren-m-davis-marve-michael-anson-author-drama))
If it contains the whole story, I would say yes. If it's only the first few chapters, I would consider that as a teaser. But I am not "they" so take that with a grain of salt.
Anything that ends up online counts as "published." Publishers might have a leeway for this, two of mine stipulate it between 10-15% of the manuscript.
Anyone with a file of rejection letters knows how tragically laughable this is. For most of us, we sure as hell wouldn't be self-publishing if we could get our work published traditionally. OP makes it sound like traditional publishing is a realistic option when the reality for most of us is either to self-publish or not publish at all.
Early in a career, or in one that has yet to be well-established, I'd agree with you. However, once you have some works under your belt, and, by proxy, your skills in writing have increased substantially, you will have a much better chance at traditional publishing.
I would recommend avoiding the 'big dogs'. Find smaller publishers. Smaller agents. Query them. (Imagine if an indie filmmaker tried to give a call to Martin Scorcese... I can't imagine they'd get very far!)
OP (me) had 370 rejections on one of my books. I know. But also, once you self-publish, the book is even less likely to be picked up traditionally unless it makes a lot of $ first.
Yeah, I feel like I am running an AMA here. Self pubbing can be good and perfectly fine if you know what you are getting into. But a lot of folk are too intimidated by traditional publishing, self pub instead, and then get heartbroken when they realize that they made their lives harder, not easier.
It's really saddening, actually.
I assumed this was common knowledge. Maybe that was a wrong assumption. (I mean, of **course** publishers won't re-publish a book... that's their whole business model down the drain if they do!)
When considering to self-publish or to pursue traditional publishing, you have to do your own research into both avenues and decide what's best for you and your story. There are pros and cons to both, but you can only choose one, as made clear by this post.
Would self publishing one book or story have an effect on future ones too? Like, if I decided to self publish the first but thought the second was something worth pursuing another way.
I am an agent, so I can answer definitively.
Yes. If you self pub the first and it doesn't sell well, then yes, you won't be able to find an agent or a trade publisher.
Keep in mind "well" is not "well for a self pub." It's probably several thousand copies. Really, unless you think it can reach at least 5k, don't self pub. Why 5k? Impressive numbers matter A LOT for finding a new publisher. And it is "industry impressive" not "self pub impressive."
The only exceptions would be if you are writing an entirely different genre (picture book vs adult fantasy) or if several years have passed and your social platform is bigger, or you are now a journalist or something.
If you don't think your first novel is good enough to sell several thousand copies and/or you aren't able to advertise it or promote it with publicity beyond begging friends and family for reviews, here is my professional advice:
Don't self pub. If you think you will want to try traditional publishing in the future, don't self pub. Either try to publish this book traditionally now or shelve it to publish later, but give traditional publishing a shot FIRST. If you fail at that, you can always go to self pub. But it is REALLY HARD to go the other way.
Source: I am an agent and before that I sat at publisher Ed boards at a Big 5. I am an insider.
(Oh, and if you go, "that makes no sense!" I have also seen a publisher decline a book because the author was Canadian. She felt her YouTube audience wouldn't be in America and she would be difficult to promote. Meanwhile, she had an American audience. None of it makes any sense. Welcome to publishing)
\^Good perspective here.
When I made the transition from indie to tradpub, my books were already selling well enough as an indie author that I was able to quit my day job to write full-time and I'd bought a house from my book income. You don't necessarily need to be doing *that* well, but you need to have sales data that proves you can at least earn out a small advance.
The industry keeps changing the label! It used to be called "mainstream fiction." Then it was "upmarket." Nowadays I think they're calling it "book club fiction."
I see. Thanks for the tips, and that does make sense. I guess it’s like you said, I was assuming that maybe if I was ready to get a story out there in a get my feet wet kinda way then it wouldn’t drag down a future shot at traditional publishing with a different work.
I’m nowhere near the place where it’s worth worrying about that yet, but I saw the topic so figured I’d ask. Thanks.
Happy to help. Spread the word!
I get so many queries from self pubbed authors who think traditional publishing will help them improve their sales. It's really heart breaking 'cuz maybe the books really are well written, but I can't take them on. I know they won't sell and it's a job for me, not a charity, and I don't have the time to try and sell a book I know already is a tough sell.
It's just so sad!
Am I correct in reading this as publishing doesn't do marketing anymore? Or at least I wouldn't expect a correlation in sales between a "book with (nearly) no marketing" and "book with marketing".
You are right and wrong. They do marketing, usually at least Amazon ads and maybe some publicity, depending on your publisher and their investment in your book.
However, the author is assumed to be the biggest salesperson. You have to be using your network and pushing your book directly.
For a self pub, they assume that you hired a marketer or a publicist and did everything they would have done. So if your sales are low, it suggests that there isn't a market so not a good buy for them. And, consequently knowing this, an agent won't take up your book to sell.
Yeah, sorry! Unless you can draw a clear line between what you self pub and what you want to traditionally publish, it is hard. And by clear line, I mean different genre or book type (YA vs Adult vs nonfiction).
Oh, good! I query juvenile picture books, but I like to self-publish adult and YA.
I have had a few submissions ask outright if I self-publish, and luckily all but one had space for "yes, but I don't take it all that seriously".
This whole situation is deeply embarrassing. There isn't a single thing this author has said or done that would've helped her career in any universe. It doesn't appear as if she's done any research into how publishing works, what constitutes plagiarism, or whether ideas can be copyrighted the same way text can.
At first I thought she might be trolling to make money off the controversy, but at this point I think she's ignorant of the industry and very unwell, among other things.
The industry is very opaque, and nothing is in absolutes when it comes to it.
I didn't cover two of her actual complaints, though she doesn't understand the context (and a lot of other people don't): 1, agents/publishers take a very long time to reply to people, and do not accept being communicated with except within official channels of which they control. 2, once a manuscript is officially published, it might have been years between when the author originally propositioned the agent with their manuscript to it being published.
Yeah, everything I've researched about it has told me to "hurry up and wait" when the time comes for me to start querying. I'll just use the time to work on the next project, because it's gonna take a while.
I think sometimes hopeful authors forget that agents/publishers are also people who need coffee breaks, get sick, go on holidays, have kids to raise and mortgages to pay. The least we can do is stick to the rules and engage with them in a way that makes life easier. It's just good manners, and nobody wants to work with some jerk who didn't even bother to read the submission guidelines.
Very interesting discussion. After a year of attending $$$ conferences, classes, etc. on "how to write a query letter," "how to write a synopsis," "how to build an online platform," and having seen how the gatekeepers (agents) decide on who/what's worth picking up, I've decided to go the indie route. Agents say they get hundreds of queries every week. It seems to me there's an "industry" out there, enticing writers to pay money for a better chance at being published when actually it's a very small chance, given how many people are trying to be published. And, as another person here has said, the writer has no say on anything about the book once it's picked up by a publisher. Self-publishing is expensive, too, but it's a sure thing and one gets to publish the book the way one wrote it (even if one doesn't do the marketing and promotion necessary to make it a financial success).
This feels oddly inflammatory. Obviously, if you publish something on your own, then that is the first publication. However, if you self-publish, and it is successful, it is significantly more likely for you to have a shot with a traditional publisher, then if you went in cold, without a proven track record of significant marketability.
>if you self-publish, and it is successful, it is significantly more likely for you to have a shot with a traditional publisher
Those instances are extremely rare.
I'm not the one who said that, but it's not as rare as all that. I sold my first book, which was about fantasy role-playing games, to a traditional publisher who had earlier picked up the rights to *High Fantasy,* a self-published role-playing game, plus a string of new follow-on books and solo adventures from the same authors.
The idea that publishers never pick up backlist titles is absurd.
It *is* oddly inflammatory. If you publish a book in one place, you can't sell its first publication rights elsewhere. Obviously. So if I sign with a traditional publisher and they make a pig's ear of the rollout and marketing, which is not unknown, there goes my chance to make a big splash with its first edition.
And the claim that poor sales "prove" anything is a blatant falsehood. Lots of well-regarded works made a poor showing with their first printing.
They can just use terms "first official publication" instead if they want to float with that.
Self-publishing can prove you if it has potential or not.
If it doesn't, it's just a subcontracted risk that publishers avoided.
If it does, publishers may be interested in picking it up and refining it to a larger market.
There are countless books that have been successfully self-published and then picked up by large publishers to be further commercialized. All they are interested in is money, an if something sells well, they are definitely in. Also, if it sells well, you will have the upper hand on publishers as they are willing to pay a lot more for already proven merchandise.
As someone who works in publishing, the issue is that the people who try to go self pub to traditional aren't the folk who have sold a few thousand copies (the general definition of success for me).
They are the folk who sold a few hundred. They want a publisher to help them market their books and reach their audience. Publishers and agents, however, see someone with a poor sales record. They don't care that it was self pubbed. Authors have to be able to sell their books.
So, yeah, self pubbed books do get picked up. But being self pubbed makes it harder to be a success unless you hire marketers and publicity just to get your name out, and then the successful folk are not the ones querying agents for their already published books.
Source: all the queries from self published authors I have ever received. Some where they even explain their reasoning.
I may be misunderstanding your title but I am personally friends with many, many authors who’ve not only found incredible success in self-publishing and who also go on to receive trad pub deals for those same series. What is the point of this post? Featuring the idiot who thought she could copywrite the sun no less (with an AI generated cover. And bad prose.)
Yeah that is my problem with this whole thread. The author was recently involved with a very racist scandal and defending that auther review bombing her fellow author but OP and several people here chose to focus on the self pub VS trad publishing.
Like... Self publishing prior is the least of her issues on why people are rejecting her. Hint, its probably her childish attitude that is online for the world to see. Not that she self published.
I wasn't trying to be abrasive. I've seen people rejected by agents for pen names as well. I'm not really planning to do anything with my writing but the whole game does seem strange and one misstep can ruin you. Or at least it seems it might be a bit different for people who aren't buying houses on their writing.
Anyhow, sorry if I stepped on any toes.
I didn't think you were being abrasive, actually! Lol. I can see how my reply might have made you feel otherwise. I was just being cheeky. :)
I know it feels very intimidating to approach a huge monolithic institution like the publishing industry... or even to think about approaching it! It does feel like one misstep can ruin you. But that's not actually the case. There are ways to navigate just about any challenge within the industry. If you do want to learn how to navigate, the best resource you've got are writers like me who have already figured out the routes.
And I don't know of many missteps that a new pen name can't fix. It's a handier tool than you might suppose!
You don't think I sprang from the forehead of Zeus buying houses from my writing, do you?! Of course not. I started out exactly where everybody starts out and I built my way to where I am now, one small step at a time. I'm always happy to share my experience and advice with any writer who needs or wants it.
I've heard from multiple people that have done both and talked to publishing companies and they all said that they don't care if you self publish first. Because the publishing companies can market it differently and have a completely different consumer base. Publishers don't care if you self publish because publishers and self publishing serve two different purposes.
"given away" first print rights? NO... you have owned the rights yourself, and cannot then sell them to someone else. SOME publishers care. Not all do.
Let's continue with the quotes.
Anything you publish: ebooks, prints, on a website, counts as published. You can call it first rights, but basically publishers and agents want dibs on the first publication of the manuscript. This is not the same as copyright.
Short stories, poetry, and prose are given more leeway. Novels have way less, and most **reputable** publishers will not take an already-published novel. The exception is if the book sold very well, and that is either with a defunct press or as self-published. Most agents outline explicitly on their submission guidelines that they will not take a published work by whatever means it was published.
This is why you always use a pen name and keep anonymity.
If you self publish, do so with the expectation that it will never be trad published.
(Edit: Also don’t be a racist crazy person like this fruit loop)
>Agents and publishers do not want a book that counts as "already published"...
Untrue.
>do not want one with floundering sales and bad ratings...
Accurate. No one wants a book that's a proven flop.
Well, yeah. Don’t submit a book you’ve already self-published. It’s just one more reason for agents to say “no” when they are looking for reasons to weed down the slush pile.
But for the most part, agents also don’t take swings on unknown authors with no platform. This is because publishers don’t take swings on unknown authors with no platform.
Unless you already have an audience of a marketable size, you should strongly consider self-publishing first to prove you can sell books.
Fiction debut authors usually don't have a platform. For fiction authors, the first book is all about quality and maybe a bit of networking in the industry. It's the second book where it's all about sales. Which is why self pubbing is particularly hard in fiction because it means you are giving away your first chance where you are mostly evaluated on quality, where you have the best shot of getting a good team behind you.
Nonfiction is a whole other ball game. In nonfiction, you basically need a platform or you are shot. Platform doesn't have to be social media, though. Journalists, business owners, folk with publicity connections, etc. all also get published.
Gonna echo the comments here and add another...
Try watching the Pitch Events on Twitter. Or, if they even have them any more. A lot of the books that get picked up from there are based on premises, not platforms. I've seen accounts with less than 1000 followers get rep. It's not just marketability. It may be for non-fiction, but isn't necessarily the case for fiction.
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Isn't this the author who thinks owns the concept of having sun-related powers? She calls all the drama Sungate. edit: yup, that's her. I would take her experience with a grain of salt. Having an author with bad reputation surely doesn't look good for publishers.
This should be higher. This person is definitely not being denied based on self-pub vs trad pub
Yeah. No, this is someone who has shown themselves as bad press, and poisoned their chances that way. By not picking her up, they don't have to drop her later.
Yes.
She failed to consider that not only are sun-related powers common, but that they appear in the folklore of the other author's culture. It's absolutely nuts to look at somebody inspired by their own culture and still try to tell them "I did it first, and I'm going to sue you"!
I mean heck some characters in Arthurian legends had sun powers and I’m sure cultures before that time had them as well
She's gonna have a hard time tracking down a 6th century Welsh poet to accuse. I don't have any characters with sun-related powers at the moment but I almost want to create one out of spite.
I think she also claimed her white character is black if I’m not mistaken but same girl.
Her Goodreads is a good read ngl...
It’s kind of sad how many people go through the whole effort of writing a book only to pull the rug out from under themselves by having no understanding how how publishing works, and/or self-publishing when that isn’t really what they wanted.
The problem is, as someone who has not yet published, I constantly read that it's extremely hard to get picked up by a traditional publisher. According to others, you need a combination of a well-written story (duh) that neatly fits into a genre mold, doesn't push the boundaries (safe), usually with extensive professional editing ($$), know someone or otherwise have an "in" with the industry, somehow already have a catalog of other published works, and be willing to dedicate hours upon hours for months to researching publishers, writing proposals, and constantly being rejected. Oh, and after all of that, you have to have good timing and get lucky. That is incredibly daunting for someone who just wants to write a few stories on the side. I have a series I'm working on. I would like it to be well-written and edited, and it would make me happy if others read and enjoyed it, but it's not my career and never will be my career. It's just one of several hobbies. Maybe I'm over thinking this, but this is what I've gathered from reading the experiences of others.
If you just want to write a few stories on the side, then you can do that. If you want to sell books, that’s a different story and does take investment, either in the form of money if you self-publish, or time if you want to try the traditional route. Being an author is unfortunately not just about writing, but it’s not impossible. For most authors, whether traditionally published or not, it’s not their main career, but it is a second job.
A lot of people think the work of being a writer is the writing, but if you want strangers to read your work, there’s a whole other job on top of the writing that is entirely non-optional.
I don't like that. I would like a writing job where I get to do writing.
That would be writing fanfiction
Or copywriting
You and most every other writer in existence. It isn’t reality, unfortunately.
You do not need extensive professional editing. That’s the publisher’s job. But *you* have to have edited it to the best of your own ability before you start querying, and a lot of authors either don’t have a strong enough grasp of English to do this - in which case they were never going to get published in the first place - or don’t want to bother editing their rough draft and think the rough draft should be good enough, which is isn’t in like 99% of cases.
r/PubTips is the place to go if you want to learn about the actual realities. If your book is something people want to read and you're willing to follow basic guidelines, the odds aren't actually as bad as all that.
Consider writing contests!! You can enter them regularly with shorter-form pieces to stay consistent + get published in different places. Short stories, publishing deals, etc. can come out of them as prizes/being noticed from them
That's a good idea and I hadn't thought of this!
Where can I find these writing contests?
[Newpages.com](https://Newpages.com), especially their blog and newsletter.
Thank you!!!
It really depends on why you want to write. It’s very true that agents and publishers want stories that are safer and more marketable. It’s very true that you can have a very well-written story that no agent will touch since there’s no pre-existing sizable market. Which matters more to you, trying to get more sales, or telling the story you want to tell? A lot of people see a trad pub as a mark of legitimacy, though there are plenty of trad pub books that are objectively bad and won’t sell after a brief flash in the pan. Will Colleen Hoover’s books stand the test of time? No. EL James’s didn’t either, nor did Shane Dawson’s or Colleen Ballinger’s. Trad pubs only care about what will make as much money as fast as possible. They don’t like taking risks since, while risks can occasionally pay off big, the number of risks it can take to find that one that pays off might not be worth the trouble. So they play it safe and want more of what’s sold. A lot of people see trad pub as a sign of quality though…fuck no, some of those books are barely edited. But again, the publishers don’t care as long as they can make a bunch of money right now. They don’t care if those books are bird cage liner in a few months. There can be a sense of selling out when you go this route though, since you have to write for the market, even if it means telling a story you don’t want to tell, or scaling back elements that meant a lot to you. Some people’s focus is on the money, and so they don’t care, but other people care more about telling the story they want to read. A big downside to a trad pub, aside from that aspect, is that you will give up so much control, from the title to how the cover looks (some authors openly hate how their covers look so much that they don’t even want to see those books) to the layout to literally everything. You may also lose rights to additional books you haven’t even written yet. That can be excruciating when you wrote the story you wanted. I’ve written books that could easily be edited into mainstream, but that would be me selling out and giving someone else all the control, and I don’t like that. Indie writers can take bigger risks than trads, and those books can easily be much, much better, more gripping, unpredictable, and better edited. There is a market for indie books. I personally rarely read anything trad anymore. I’m sick and tired of the same bullshit and proselytizing. A big thing to keep in mind: Success for trad pub is only about the money. It doesn’t matter how good a story is, how proud you are of it, how much it can move a reader, nothing. You are a failure if your book doesn’t make enough money, and I’ve seen people devastated over this. Your success is largely out of your control. Success for indie is the book itself. That is entirely within your control. Money is a nice bonus, but not making a lot doesn’t make you a failure since your success was in the book being created. To disclose: I’m that writer who doesn’t care how legitimate others see my work. If they think it’s lesser than because I won’t make them mainstream, then try to sell them off to an agent and publisher, so? I know what’s in them, and that they’re the stories I want. I write for the passion of it, not for the goal of dollars. My first trilogy was written with the goal of getting an agent, and I walked from that when I was getting great feedback from interested agents…but they consistently wanted me to make the same changes to make my characters more mainstream even though I wrote them how they were since I was disgusted by the mainstream. I didn’t want Tristan to be a controlling asshole like Edward Cullen, and I didn’t want Juliette to be a helpless stupid vapid damsel like Bella Swan. I learned through that that I had to decide what mattered. So I walked away from some standing offers of rep contingent on modifications I wasn’t comfortable with. Anti-Edwards and anti-Bellas were a risk the traditional industry wasn‘t willing to take at the time. So I went the self-pub route, had a handful of sales, but had more than one reviewer on Goodreads and Amazon write about how my books helped them see abuse in their own relationships and escape, and one reader reached out directly about it to thank me. My current books are the sort that I’ve been told would probably do VERY well on the trad market, but I’m not willing to risk it, and I’m not willing to give control over them over to a trad pub. Like you, I’m not here for the money—I’m here for love of the craft. If you don’t want to turn what you love into a business where success is dollars and you’re a failure if you don’t bring in enough, go indie, but if you‘re willing to risk rejection and to be told to make changes you may not want to make, but it’s worth it to say you got a trad deal, then write for the mainstream.
> I didn’t want Tristan to be a controlling asshole like Edward Cullen, and I didn’t want Juliette to be a helpless stupid vapid damsel like Bella Swan. This issue is dear to me. My characters are complex and multi-faceted. They are not flat archetypes. They are all a little older and have had life happen to them. None are written to look like Quasimodo, but neither are they beautiful. They lead full lives and aren't limited by the stereotypes I usually read. These things are very important to me. Furthermore, my story is all about shades of gray. It can't be boiled down to good vs. evil. Everyone must make choices and they suffer the consequences. The characters are also all smaller pieces of a complex world. They aren't superheroes. In a nutshell, the goal of the series is to explore what would happen if you dropped five average 30 year olds into an abstracted, fantastical version of our world and told each one to pursue a different goal. I think my story is compelling and I'd like to write and edit it in a way that others do too, even if it never makes a best seller list or makes much money.
If my goal is to find a way to fix my busted-ass body then I'm in.
I don't think even main stream publishers would have taken her book. It was a fucking mess and (unsurprisingly) racist
Ive read an excerpt of her book that someone annotated on twitter (with red pen lol) and I'll be honest, I'm not sure she DID go through the effort of writing a book. I'm not an expert in AI, but her book reads like AI. It's so inconsistent and choppy in a way that isn't just bad writing, in my opinion.
Any good post or links for that advice? I just want to get my story out into the world so I was more or less planing to release it for free. I don't need to make money because I have a good day job in a field that isn't going anywhere. My basic plan is to start getting the story out there once I have the first "book" mostly done. Then edit and refine the book. Once that is done, pivot to making it into a motion comic or something with AI.
Don't use AI. The second you use AI your credibility goes down the toilet and no one will touch your story with a ten foot pole.
I don’t understand what this is lol
Example of a person who got mad an agent didn't take their already published work.
Oooof with a 1 star rating by the looks of things.
Checked Goodreads, the only reason it’s not a straight 1.0 is because the author gave it 5 stars on an alt
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yeah but that's a good, well written, well reviewed and probably well selling indie. if you don't have that then the stuff written about how publishers look at it definitely applies.
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I work in the publishing industry. He is 100% right. Self pubs almost never get picked up. And here is the kicker: even if you don't self pub your second book, if you self pubbed your first, it will be very very hard to find a publisher unless your first book sold really well. Start in self pubbing, and it's very hard to become trad published. I don't care if it's your 3rd book and it has never been published before. You set yourself a track record and a history. It's much much easier to go trad pub to self pub, so if you think you may ever want to traditionally publish, try to do it FIRST.
Can you give more detail? I always thought any amount of publishing would make someone more attractive overall. Why would being able to look and see that an author has self published and been successful make them less attractive traditionally?
What is your definition of successful? Because unless you can move several thousand copies, you are not successful in the eyes of a traditional publisher or agent. Just self pubbing means you had some disposable income to buy a self publishing service. It means nothing. Sales are all that really matter, and unless you have sold several thousand copies, you will find getting an agent or publisher harder. This is the standard for self pubbed or traditionally published authors who are selling a second book. You don't get a break because you self pubbed.
Ah ok, for me I wouldn't call myself successful as a self published author unless I was making enough to live on so that matches up. My expectations were that if someone was successful, it would actually be easier to work traditionally because the inverse would be true, they could look and see you know how to write and market. Do you agree?
Yes, if you are a successful self pub author, you are easier to sell to a trad publisher. But if you are a successful self pub author, then you may not want to go trad publishing. You'd have to look at your business model and see what a trad publisher could do for you. Also, most people start thinking they will be successful, realize it's a third job on top of what they already do and writing itself, and then look for a publisher after they already self pubbed. Which is why I suggest trying trad publishing first and then doing self pub unless you are very confident in your ability to move books. There are no hard and fast rules, but there are trends.
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Okay, no one should ever be ghosted. That is just terrible and not professional at all. But, yes, a flop does make it harder to sell a second book. At that point, my advice to my author would be to try something new, like a genre switch or a different age range. It's not impossible to sell after a flop, but it does make it hard - exactly like selling after an unsuccessful self pub. See, it doesn't matter if it is a self pub or trad, it's hard to sell a second book after you have established a crappy sales record. It's not impossible, but it is harder, and at least if you sold a flop with a trad publisher, you may already have an agent who can help guide you. It's harder to get an agent after the flop, but if you already have one, you are in a better position. Do you need an agent? No, but it helps. As for "draconian" contracts, I don't really know what you mean. Sounds like there are specific things you take issue with. I have read some bad contracts, even advised a client to walk away from one, but I haven't had an author sign any that were unfair. It's a business deal, so it's best if all parties are happy. But, it's a business deal and if you don't negotiate or just let the other side dictate terms, you may lose a lot. Sounds like you prefer self pubbing in general, though. Good! I am glad you know what you want.
The trad industry is literally 100% about $$$, nothing else at all. Success is only about the money, nothing else.
Genuine question, couldn’t people just query under a different pen name than they used to self publish? And if a publisher is bothering to do enough digging to find that their promising new writer and NoName McSelfy are one and the same, they were probably already seriously considering the book, so is it really enough to be a dealbreaker? I’ve had friends who self published before becoming traditionally published. One languished for years with poor sales but enjoyed an increase in popularity when a well known established trad author enjoyed and promoted his work. Others had multiple early books with poor sales before achieving a breakout hit. But another thing I’ve noticed is that if you actually do have decent sales self publishing— by no means easy to do — you’re making enough in royalties above what you would from a trad publisher to more than make up for the initial investment on cover art, editing etc. Many of my friends have mentioned seeing a decrease in pay after going trad, and several decided to go back to self publishing.
A) As an agent, if you lie to me and tell me that you never published anything before and then I find out that you did, I'd drop you because you lied to me. I don't do business with people who lie to me. And if you used your real name on the self-pubs, I will find out. Publishing is contracts and contracts have to be done with legal names. B) Yes, if a publisher finds out that an author actually does have a sales track record and it sucks, that can be enough of a reason to not make an offer. After all, if the writing is okay, but not amazing, and the author has shown they can't move their own books, then it's not worth polishing the writing to become amazing because that is a lot of work. If they find out after you sign a publishing deal or they make an offer, it gets murky and will depend on the contract and the personalities involved. (You will also piss off your agent. See bullet A above.) And C) "But another thing I’ve noticed is that if you actually do have decent sales self publishing— by no means easy to do — you’re making enough in royalties above what you would from a trad publisher to more than make up for the initial investment on cover art, editing etc. Many of my friends have mentioned seeing a decrease in pay after going trad, and several decided to go back to self publishing." - 100%. This is why most folk who are self-pubbed and querying agents are not successful. If they were successful, they wouldn't be querying me because most successful self-pubbed people are quite happy with their returns on investment. In my experience, those who do go trad publishing usually do so because they want the added publicity and credibility (usually more for nonfiction authors) or they don't want to deal with the hassle of sales and cover art anymore.
Been a few years since I tried querying, but while one or two agents had querytracker questions asking if the specific book was published before, I don’t remember any of them demanding to know if I’d ever self published anything ever. In the end I did choose self publishing because it seemed like a better deal if you’re good at it, and even if my first book’s sales were mediocre, I can still try more, and self publishing doesn’t arbitrarily punish you for life for every little misstep like trad seems very eager to do according to these comments.
Sounds like you have a system that works for you! That is good! And no, even I don't have that on my query tracker. But I would expect it to come out in conversation and I don't know an agent who signs a client without first talking at least. As for trad publishing punishing authors for life's missteps, that's why agents work for the author. It's my job to protect my authors, but YMMV and I can't speak to others' experiences.
I don’t doubt your experience, but I want to offer the other side of this for anyone reading. I’m not a publisher, but I have a couple friends who are and their mantra is “publishers don’t buy books, they buy small businesses”. Basically, an unknown author with no track record is going to have a much harder time getting published than someone who has sold books, built an audience, and shown they know how to market themselves - because publishers still want you to do that even after they sign you.
Oh, you are 100% correct. They are buying little mini brands and want brands with audiences. This is why almost all nonfiction books these days seem to come from influencers. The challenge is a lot of self pub authors are not successful businesses, particularly in fiction, which is what I see most on this sub. Most folk who are self pubbed and come to agents are not doing so because they have sold a lot of books. They are doing so because they haven't. And while it's easier for someone with a good sales record to get published than someone with a blank slate, it is MUCH harder for someone with a poor record to get published than someone with a blank slate. Blank slates allow the publisher or agent to see potential without any countering history. They can see where they can imprint on the marketing or the author to build them from scratch without any previous numbers forcing them to think smaller. In other words, unless you are very confident you can sell a few thousand copies, try traditional first. You can always go to self pub, but it is harder to go the other way.
And your advice for people who didn't know this ten years ago when they published?
If you haven't published anything else in those 10 years, and you have something new, I say give it another go at traditional. 10 years is a long time and a different market. You still need to have a good explanation for why the self pub didn't sell well (assuming it didn't), but you can say "wrong market" and probably get away with it. Then, just like a debut author, focus on what you will do this time that will make the result better than last time. But, yeah, 10 years is long enough to give trad another try. Editing to add: Just for clarity, it still has to be a new book. You can't really just go out with the same thing you already published. OP's point about first rights is still true. You could possibly get away with it if you change it significantly, but then you better have a really really good explanation for the poor sales, even a decade ago. In other words, it makes it much harder.
>but then you better have a really really good explanation for the poor sales, even a decade ago. Would "I never intended to market it, the process was part of a project to learn how to take a book from concept to publication" work as a reason? For my final project for High school I chose to write and publish a book; that was in 2012. I do plan on rewriting it at some point because it *suuuucked* in mechanical skill, but the concept was solid, imo. But mostly I do have other works Id like to publish today. Also, would "I was broke and 18" also work as a reason? Because that was true too lol
Phrase it this way: My submission is based on a high school senior project. This is a new book inspired by that early project. Don't say it is the same book. You are rewriting it. It is based on your high school project. It is not the same thing. And if you phrase the project as a high school assignment, then it puts the book in another category and absolves you of it not selling. That said, I would go out first with one of your new projects and save the rewritten high school project for book 2 or 3. Let yourself get an adult track record first to more firmly separate it from your teenaged work.
Great context to have, thank you.
If you self-publish under nom de plume, how would they know? Could they find out?
You're right, they wouldn't know. But I would personally count it as dishonest if you said you had never published anything before and you had. And if you lied to me, I wouldn't want to keep working with you. As mentioned above, the reaction with a publisher would depend on the contract language and personalities involved. I think it's always best to be honest with your business partners. Agents and authors have to work together and the agent works for you. Do you really want to lie to your business partners?
Thank you for your response. I have a question about bias, if you don't mind. I intended to use Kindle Unlimited to churn out a few quick, smutty, junk-food-for-the-imagination type paranormal fantasy romance novels under a pen name. Those seem to be popular. Frankly, I was hoping to make a little money while prepping something with more of me in it. I'm an artist, so I'm also drawing an a kids' book to publish under yet another name. Kids' books don't do so well on KU, but it's easy to do. I didn't think minimal success on any of these would tank the potential of the novel that has my heart behind it. I planned to submit it when it's perfect, as long as that takes. If I need to disclose any books published under KU to any agent who notices my real work, would the fluff stuff bias the agent and publishers against me? I'm a bit discouraged to learn my plan may be self-sabotage.
Is your novel the same genre as the fluff? If so, it could be an issue. If not, I think you are probably pretty safe.
Broadly speaking, perhaps? The novel is a dark fairy tale grounded in a modern real world setting. It's fantasy with a romantic, non-spicy subplot. Nothing graphic, merely suggested and the love interest isn't the focus at all. The fluff is romance but it is fantasy. I'd presume the adult content and romance focus move it to a different category despite the fantasy setting. I do truly appreciate your information. Maybe I should defantasize my fluff, lol.
That sounds pretty safe to me. Still best to keep it as different as possible, but raunchy paranormal romance is a different audience than contemporary or urban fantasy with a romance subplot. Really hammer that home in your discussions with agents, that the audience is different.
It’s rare but true. The Martian by Andy Weir and Wool by Hugh Howey were both like that if I’m not mistaken. But those were both amazingly well written books that took off, and publishers jumped in after the fact to sign them and make money.
My first traditionally published book was one that I self-published first. Three different publishers approached me about it and I eventually decided to work with one of them. The thing is, though, I didn't query that book. I was already an established indie author with a fairly big following and I just published that book for my readers to enjoy. The publishers came to me; I didn't go to them. When indie books do get picked up by tradpub, that's the way it usually happens. The publishers move on the book, not vice-versa.
did these publishers ask for any money up front? not to be rude, but every self pub gets approached by vanity publishers. it’s part of their business model.
That's a valid question, and it's good to ask so that other writers know what to beware of. No, they were all legitimate traditional publishers who paid advances and had normal contracts with reversion clauses and the whole nine yards. One was a smallish imprint of a Big Five publisher. Two were independent presses that had good reputations. I ended up working with one of the independent presses and have been with them ever since. I've done lots of books for them by now, under two different names. Some have hit bestseller lists and three have won awards. So in this case, it was legit (though I approached it with caution and researched each press very thoroughly to be sure. Every writer should do the same.) ETA: important to note that they approached me because I was kicking ass as an indie author and was routinely landing on the Amazon Top 100 list among these publishers' other titles. So they kept seeing my books over and over again, out-selling the stuff they were already publishing 😆 You don't typically get approached by legitimate publishers unless you've already figured out how to make your indie books sell like hotcakes.
nice, and well done! always feels good to hear a story like this.
A book failing to find its audience is not proving there’s no market, it’s just “proving” that the book hasn’t found its market. Which is a problem in tradpub too considering how many pub houses are shirking their responsibilities and putting responsibility for all marketing back on the author (a thing that most authors, like it or not, are abysmal at). There has always been too much emphasis on out-the-gate sales and presales when there is literally nothing stopping anyone, tradpub or self-published, from re-releasing their work and doing a big pr/marketing push on stuff that’s already been released. In fact, it’s the best way self-pub authors can tend to their bottom line.
This is why I am just sticking to my query letters. The greatest thing I did was listen to a professor I work with, she is a published author and her first book she self published and failed miserably. She learned and moved on and wrote a new series, and now she is retiring early because her romance series took off with an indie publishing. But she warned me to stay far away and delay the gratification, otherwise you are going to end in tears.
This is why I'm pursuing tradpub and not considering self-publication at all. I don't have faith that I can keep track of all the moving parts, or afford all the up-front costs necessary to give myself a decent chance. While traditional publishers do less for authors than most assume, it's still more than I could do on my own. I'd benefit from their expertise, professional presentation, be more likely to land on bookstore shelves, and cover art from somebody who knows how to draw attention. To me that's way too much to give up for the sake of being published faster.
It depends what goal you set for yourself. If your goal is to have a professional published book, or series, then yes, I'd stay far, far away from self-publishing. However, if your goal is merely to publish a book, or to simply set your series out into the world, then I think self-publishing is something worth looking into (though, obviously, it is not the best choice for everybody).
You're not wrong. However. Self-publishing is a great avenue for writers who have stories that don't have mainstream appeal or are very niche or have themes and subject matter that publishers are hesitant to take. If you are going to self-publish a book, do so with the understanding that a publisher may not want to pick it up later. But understand that even if you plan to look for an agent for other works, that doesn’t mean you can't also Self-publish some stuff.
This author also tried to sue another author for “copyright claims” because both of their characters used “sun powers”. When told that no one person owns “the sun” or any magical powers under it, Lauren M Davis countered with “but she doesn’t have sun *powers*, she *harnesses* the *power* of the sun which is completely different.” Not to mention the character in question is a side character, not the titular character or even the one who appears on the cover. Yeah this sucks for her, but also this writer overall is a fucking headache who’s pissed off quite a few people. ([source](https://www.distractify.com/p/lauren-m-davis-marve-michael-anson-author-drama))
She also can't write well.
Do they consider webserials self published? Meaning things like wattpad or royal road
If it contains the whole story, I would say yes. If it's only the first few chapters, I would consider that as a teaser. But I am not "they" so take that with a grain of salt.
Yes. They're not gonna check the percentage--if it's up there, it's previously published. If it's on your personal website, it's previously published.
Anything that ends up online counts as "published." Publishers might have a leeway for this, two of mine stipulate it between 10-15% of the manuscript.
But why would someone publish on Amazon then try to query out the same book to agents when it's already been published?
Usually people who do this self-publish first, then contemplate if having a publisher would increase their chance of sales.
Anyone with a file of rejection letters knows how tragically laughable this is. For most of us, we sure as hell wouldn't be self-publishing if we could get our work published traditionally. OP makes it sound like traditional publishing is a realistic option when the reality for most of us is either to self-publish or not publish at all.
Early in a career, or in one that has yet to be well-established, I'd agree with you. However, once you have some works under your belt, and, by proxy, your skills in writing have increased substantially, you will have a much better chance at traditional publishing. I would recommend avoiding the 'big dogs'. Find smaller publishers. Smaller agents. Query them. (Imagine if an indie filmmaker tried to give a call to Martin Scorcese... I can't imagine they'd get very far!)
OP (me) had 370 rejections on one of my books. I know. But also, once you self-publish, the book is even less likely to be picked up traditionally unless it makes a lot of $ first.
You are an inspiration for everyone on this sub. The odds of a writer getting picked up by a publisher are... (Googles it) ..."between 1 and 2%."
I think I'm more like a cautionary tale.
I wish you the best of luck.
I almost said "Of course?" and then I scrolled down. So good job on the apparently needed PSA!
Yeah, I feel like I am running an AMA here. Self pubbing can be good and perfectly fine if you know what you are getting into. But a lot of folk are too intimidated by traditional publishing, self pub instead, and then get heartbroken when they realize that they made their lives harder, not easier. It's really saddening, actually.
You are running the AMA. Makes my life easier though. Thank you!
I assumed this was common knowledge. Maybe that was a wrong assumption. (I mean, of **course** publishers won't re-publish a book... that's their whole business model down the drain if they do!) When considering to self-publish or to pursue traditional publishing, you have to do your own research into both avenues and decide what's best for you and your story. There are pros and cons to both, but you can only choose one, as made clear by this post.
Unfortunately, it needs to be explained.
Would self publishing one book or story have an effect on future ones too? Like, if I decided to self publish the first but thought the second was something worth pursuing another way.
I am an agent, so I can answer definitively. Yes. If you self pub the first and it doesn't sell well, then yes, you won't be able to find an agent or a trade publisher. Keep in mind "well" is not "well for a self pub." It's probably several thousand copies. Really, unless you think it can reach at least 5k, don't self pub. Why 5k? Impressive numbers matter A LOT for finding a new publisher. And it is "industry impressive" not "self pub impressive." The only exceptions would be if you are writing an entirely different genre (picture book vs adult fantasy) or if several years have passed and your social platform is bigger, or you are now a journalist or something. If you don't think your first novel is good enough to sell several thousand copies and/or you aren't able to advertise it or promote it with publicity beyond begging friends and family for reviews, here is my professional advice: Don't self pub. If you think you will want to try traditional publishing in the future, don't self pub. Either try to publish this book traditionally now or shelve it to publish later, but give traditional publishing a shot FIRST. If you fail at that, you can always go to self pub. But it is REALLY HARD to go the other way. Source: I am an agent and before that I sat at publisher Ed boards at a Big 5. I am an insider. (Oh, and if you go, "that makes no sense!" I have also seen a publisher decline a book because the author was Canadian. She felt her YouTube audience wouldn't be in America and she would be difficult to promote. Meanwhile, she had an American audience. None of it makes any sense. Welcome to publishing)
\^Good perspective here. When I made the transition from indie to tradpub, my books were already selling well enough as an indie author that I was able to quit my day job to write full-time and I'd bought a house from my book income. You don't necessarily need to be doing *that* well, but you need to have sales data that proves you can at least earn out a small advance.
Yup! And congrats! That is an amazing story!
In what genre do you publish in?
The industry keeps changing the label! It used to be called "mainstream fiction." Then it was "upmarket." Nowadays I think they're calling it "book club fiction."
OK. Thanks
I see. Thanks for the tips, and that does make sense. I guess it’s like you said, I was assuming that maybe if I was ready to get a story out there in a get my feet wet kinda way then it wouldn’t drag down a future shot at traditional publishing with a different work. I’m nowhere near the place where it’s worth worrying about that yet, but I saw the topic so figured I’d ask. Thanks.
Happy to help. Spread the word! I get so many queries from self pubbed authors who think traditional publishing will help them improve their sales. It's really heart breaking 'cuz maybe the books really are well written, but I can't take them on. I know they won't sell and it's a job for me, not a charity, and I don't have the time to try and sell a book I know already is a tough sell. It's just so sad!
Am I correct in reading this as publishing doesn't do marketing anymore? Or at least I wouldn't expect a correlation in sales between a "book with (nearly) no marketing" and "book with marketing".
You are right and wrong. They do marketing, usually at least Amazon ads and maybe some publicity, depending on your publisher and their investment in your book. However, the author is assumed to be the biggest salesperson. You have to be using your network and pushing your book directly. For a self pub, they assume that you hired a marketer or a publicist and did everything they would have done. So if your sales are low, it suggests that there isn't a market so not a good buy for them. And, consequently knowing this, an agent won't take up your book to sell.
Ah, hell, I self-pub for funsies, didn't realize that was affecting my trad pub chances. Whelp!
Yeah, sorry! Unless you can draw a clear line between what you self pub and what you want to traditionally publish, it is hard. And by clear line, I mean different genre or book type (YA vs Adult vs nonfiction).
Oh, good! I query juvenile picture books, but I like to self-publish adult and YA. I have had a few submissions ask outright if I self-publish, and luckily all but one had space for "yes, but I don't take it all that seriously".
Good! It still isn't doing yourself any favors, but it's not as big of an issue this way.
This makes no sense, which explains the sorry state most big industries are in
If your self published sells well, it will have a very positive effect on future ones, lol.
The same is true if you go through a publisher
This whole situation is deeply embarrassing. There isn't a single thing this author has said or done that would've helped her career in any universe. It doesn't appear as if she's done any research into how publishing works, what constitutes plagiarism, or whether ideas can be copyrighted the same way text can. At first I thought she might be trolling to make money off the controversy, but at this point I think she's ignorant of the industry and very unwell, among other things.
The industry is very opaque, and nothing is in absolutes when it comes to it. I didn't cover two of her actual complaints, though she doesn't understand the context (and a lot of other people don't): 1, agents/publishers take a very long time to reply to people, and do not accept being communicated with except within official channels of which they control. 2, once a manuscript is officially published, it might have been years between when the author originally propositioned the agent with their manuscript to it being published.
Yeah, everything I've researched about it has told me to "hurry up and wait" when the time comes for me to start querying. I'll just use the time to work on the next project, because it's gonna take a while. I think sometimes hopeful authors forget that agents/publishers are also people who need coffee breaks, get sick, go on holidays, have kids to raise and mortgages to pay. The least we can do is stick to the rules and engage with them in a way that makes life easier. It's just good manners, and nobody wants to work with some jerk who didn't even bother to read the submission guidelines.
This was a rabbit hole that I did not expect to fall into...
Sorry.
This woman is insufferable. I wouldn’t give a nickel for her experiences after she flopped at gaming the reviews.
Very interesting discussion. After a year of attending $$$ conferences, classes, etc. on "how to write a query letter," "how to write a synopsis," "how to build an online platform," and having seen how the gatekeepers (agents) decide on who/what's worth picking up, I've decided to go the indie route. Agents say they get hundreds of queries every week. It seems to me there's an "industry" out there, enticing writers to pay money for a better chance at being published when actually it's a very small chance, given how many people are trying to be published. And, as another person here has said, the writer has no say on anything about the book once it's picked up by a publisher. Self-publishing is expensive, too, but it's a sure thing and one gets to publish the book the way one wrote it (even if one doesn't do the marketing and promotion necessary to make it a financial success).
This feels oddly inflammatory. Obviously, if you publish something on your own, then that is the first publication. However, if you self-publish, and it is successful, it is significantly more likely for you to have a shot with a traditional publisher, then if you went in cold, without a proven track record of significant marketability.
Those instances are extremely rare.
Successful self-publishing happens all the time, especially for specialty and technical subjects. This has been true forever.
>if you self-publish, and it is successful, it is significantly more likely for you to have a shot with a traditional publisher Those instances are extremely rare.
I'm not the one who said that, but it's not as rare as all that. I sold my first book, which was about fantasy role-playing games, to a traditional publisher who had earlier picked up the rights to *High Fantasy,* a self-published role-playing game, plus a string of new follow-on books and solo adventures from the same authors. The idea that publishers never pick up backlist titles is absurd.
It *is* oddly inflammatory. If you publish a book in one place, you can't sell its first publication rights elsewhere. Obviously. So if I sign with a traditional publisher and they make a pig's ear of the rollout and marketing, which is not unknown, there goes my chance to make a big splash with its first edition. And the claim that poor sales "prove" anything is a blatant falsehood. Lots of well-regarded works made a poor showing with their first printing.
They can just use terms "first official publication" instead if they want to float with that. Self-publishing can prove you if it has potential or not. If it doesn't, it's just a subcontracted risk that publishers avoided. If it does, publishers may be interested in picking it up and refining it to a larger market. There are countless books that have been successfully self-published and then picked up by large publishers to be further commercialized. All they are interested in is money, an if something sells well, they are definitely in. Also, if it sells well, you will have the upper hand on publishers as they are willing to pay a lot more for already proven merchandise.
As someone who works in publishing, the issue is that the people who try to go self pub to traditional aren't the folk who have sold a few thousand copies (the general definition of success for me). They are the folk who sold a few hundred. They want a publisher to help them market their books and reach their audience. Publishers and agents, however, see someone with a poor sales record. They don't care that it was self pubbed. Authors have to be able to sell their books. So, yeah, self pubbed books do get picked up. But being self pubbed makes it harder to be a success unless you hire marketers and publicity just to get your name out, and then the successful folk are not the ones querying agents for their already published books. Source: all the queries from self published authors I have ever received. Some where they even explain their reasoning.
I may be misunderstanding your title but I am personally friends with many, many authors who’ve not only found incredible success in self-publishing and who also go on to receive trad pub deals for those same series. What is the point of this post? Featuring the idiot who thought she could copywrite the sun no less (with an AI generated cover. And bad prose.)
Yeah that is my problem with this whole thread. The author was recently involved with a very racist scandal and defending that auther review bombing her fellow author but OP and several people here chose to focus on the self pub VS trad publishing. Like... Self publishing prior is the least of her issues on why people are rejecting her. Hint, its probably her childish attitude that is online for the world to see. Not that she self published.
So write a different book.
According to the publisher in this thread they still don't want you even if you write something different.
Well, according to the most successful author in this sub, that's not true. Use a pen name, dude.
I wasn't trying to be abrasive. I've seen people rejected by agents for pen names as well. I'm not really planning to do anything with my writing but the whole game does seem strange and one misstep can ruin you. Or at least it seems it might be a bit different for people who aren't buying houses on their writing. Anyhow, sorry if I stepped on any toes.
I didn't think you were being abrasive, actually! Lol. I can see how my reply might have made you feel otherwise. I was just being cheeky. :) I know it feels very intimidating to approach a huge monolithic institution like the publishing industry... or even to think about approaching it! It does feel like one misstep can ruin you. But that's not actually the case. There are ways to navigate just about any challenge within the industry. If you do want to learn how to navigate, the best resource you've got are writers like me who have already figured out the routes. And I don't know of many missteps that a new pen name can't fix. It's a handier tool than you might suppose! You don't think I sprang from the forehead of Zeus buying houses from my writing, do you?! Of course not. I started out exactly where everybody starts out and I built my way to where I am now, one small step at a time. I'm always happy to share my experience and advice with any writer who needs or wants it.
I've heard from multiple people that have done both and talked to publishing companies and they all said that they don't care if you self publish first. Because the publishing companies can market it differently and have a completely different consumer base. Publishers don't care if you self publish because publishers and self publishing serve two different purposes.
Different argument. Publishers care if you try to submit to them a manuscript that was already published, either with another press or self-published.
"given away" first print rights? NO... you have owned the rights yourself, and cannot then sell them to someone else. SOME publishers care. Not all do.
Let's continue with the quotes. Anything you publish: ebooks, prints, on a website, counts as published. You can call it first rights, but basically publishers and agents want dibs on the first publication of the manuscript. This is not the same as copyright. Short stories, poetry, and prose are given more leeway. Novels have way less, and most **reputable** publishers will not take an already-published novel. The exception is if the book sold very well, and that is either with a defunct press or as self-published. Most agents outline explicitly on their submission guidelines that they will not take a published work by whatever means it was published.
This is why you always use a pen name and keep anonymity. If you self publish, do so with the expectation that it will never be trad published. (Edit: Also don’t be a racist crazy person like this fruit loop)
>Agents and publishers do not want a book that counts as "already published"... Untrue. >do not want one with floundering sales and bad ratings... Accurate. No one wants a book that's a proven flop.
Well, yeah. Don’t submit a book you’ve already self-published. It’s just one more reason for agents to say “no” when they are looking for reasons to weed down the slush pile. But for the most part, agents also don’t take swings on unknown authors with no platform. This is because publishers don’t take swings on unknown authors with no platform. Unless you already have an audience of a marketable size, you should strongly consider self-publishing first to prove you can sell books.
Most debut authors in fiction are unknown with no platform, and there are hundreds of debuts every year.
Fiction debut authors usually don't have a platform. For fiction authors, the first book is all about quality and maybe a bit of networking in the industry. It's the second book where it's all about sales. Which is why self pubbing is particularly hard in fiction because it means you are giving away your first chance where you are mostly evaluated on quality, where you have the best shot of getting a good team behind you. Nonfiction is a whole other ball game. In nonfiction, you basically need a platform or you are shot. Platform doesn't have to be social media, though. Journalists, business owners, folk with publicity connections, etc. all also get published.
Gonna echo the comments here and add another... Try watching the Pitch Events on Twitter. Or, if they even have them any more. A lot of the books that get picked up from there are based on premises, not platforms. I've seen accounts with less than 1000 followers get rep. It's not just marketability. It may be for non-fiction, but isn't necessarily the case for fiction.