So he wants you to engage in unpaid labor for him and he set up the event before getting your agreement to do it? This is on him. He got ahead of himself. Also, his reason is kinda sus - like it’s about the group being biased rather than the quality of the work.
In any event, this won’t be the first time someone provides an unhelpful critique of your work. At a certain point, your work is what it is, and there’s a market for sci-fi with LGBT elements. I mean, Dune from forever ago has LGBT elements.
Sci-fi has had prominent LGBTQ elements since the 1960s - if these folks are 40+ and have been reading sci-fi, then they will have encountered this before unless they went out of their way to avoid it.
I think we are missing part of the story. 40 year olds were born the 80s not the 1940s. The concepts referenced have been around in sci fi longer than this book club. Left Hand of Darkness is a sci-fi classic with gender switching characters, for example. Some of Heinlein’s stuff makes me blush. These people have seen it all before.
So my question to the OP is why would this group be so opposed to the concepts? The demographic and genre doesn’t explain it. Is there an explanation of some sort?
It could be those parts are coming across too woke, as they say, and trying too hard to be edgy when those concepts are older than dirt in sci fi or it could be this is a group of horrible homophobes. If it’s the latter then what’s the question here? Why would you even consider changing it in that case? Makes no sense.
Feels like we are missing something.
Yeah. I’m 43 and this sort of stuff definitely isn’t a concern amongst me or my peer group. I suspect this group has other factors beyond their age that make this an issue.
I am 52 and this is not an issue for me either . Nor was it to my parents, but they were in Vietnam and served with AA and gay men who they remained friends with as I was growing up .
My mom is 70 and will probably climb over a table to attack if you start deliberately misgendering people. She has an 80 year old sister who also supports both gay and trans rights. The female judge who just ruled against a nude spa in favor of a trans plaintiff is in her 80s. Biden is very LGBT-friendly and in his 80s, as is Bernie Sanders.
> 40 year olds were born the 80s not the 1940s. The concepts referenced have been around in sci fi longer than this book club. Left Hand of Darkness is a sci-fi classic with gender switching characters, for example. Some of Heinlein’s stuff makes me blush. These people have seen it all before.
Yes, that was my point.
Is it a political or religiously based group?
Is it just the uncle and not the group that has a problem here?
Or are you suggesting the whole story is a fabrication?
People today whine and bitch that Star Trek "got woke".
And yet, Star Trek from day one in the 60s has always been "woke",
They don't have a clue what the word means and they think everything is an attack on them.
I remember watching a commentary on the DVD pack I had where they talked about it, and it wasn't even supposed to have that, studio execs wanted that scene reshot, and Shatner was supposed to look up at the camera instead. But when they filmed it, he crossed his eyes to ruin the shot, and they had to use the earlier take with the kiss.
It’s more that it was the first lip kiss between Black and white actors on American TV. There had been kisses between Asian and white actors before, and a cheek kiss with Nancy Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr. Still very important! But not the first interracial kiss overall.
I mainly remember the female assassin forces when the replica of Duncan is learning about the original Duncan in one of the advanced timelines, engaged in lesbian sex. But it was kind of described as unnatural or his reaction to it was discomfort/disgust. And the Baron was also gay, but he was also a sadistic pedophile so that's not the best representation. I don't remember much past that.
Edit to add this may have been in one of the sequels of the series of Dune rather than the first book alone.
Yeah, Dune generally has a very 50s take on sexual morality. I wouldn't hold it up as an example of good representation. But sexual morality is a central theme, so those queer elements still have to be present. If Bill's reading group read a censored version of Dune they would miss that thread of the theme, ironically one that they might even agree with.
Dune has LGBT elements but also kind of hates gay people. A villain being gay is more acceptable to homophobes.
I like Dune. But I wouldn’t say it’s queer elements are a positive for it or a good example of queer stuff in sci fi.
>As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right.
They're not.
Let's imagine you make these changes. It's not really simple cuts or edits. Sure, you can make edits to change the gender of the lesbian pilots partner, but changing an entire species biology and therefore it's culture could be huge, and then with the princess you might need to write in a whole new character as a love interest. That's a huge investment of time, which is time taken away from writing the next book. That's a financial hit you could be taking.
But okay, let's say you do all that. You know have two versions of your book. You can't put them both on Amazon. So let's say you have the lgbt version on amazon and the non-lgbt version on kobo.
An lgbt booktokker finds your book on amazon, likes it, makes a vid, and it goes viral. Their lgbt viewers all buy your books - but a lot of them end up with the non-lgbt version. They discover what you did, and you go viral again but this time not for a good reason. That's a reputation hit you could be taking.
A local book group now wants you to do a reading, but they don't like that some of your characters are Black. They want you to change it and point out you already did this once before. You could refuse, but changing the lgbt characters and not the Black characters proves you're actually homophobic (to some people) although, hey, you're not racist. That's a reputation hit you could be taking. Or maybe you do change it. That's a huge investment of time, which is time taken away from writing the next book. That's a financial hit you could be taking.
At what point do you stop rewriting the same book because different readers want different things? How many versions do you end up with? Will you ever write a second book or just continually rewrite the first one?
Okay, it might not go that way or that badly, this was an extreme example.
Exactly. I just saw a video go viral on tiktok with a fan meeting their long time favorite author/book who (the fan) is now trans 10+ years later. They thanked him for his unwavering commitment to the LGBTQ community, especially in the wake of all the anti-queer BS happening right now. Millions of views and the author probably has thousands more people reading their work bc of that interaction.
Never change your work because someone gives you their ‘shoulds’. My husband and I own a small food business and we get ‘shoulds’ from people all the time. Even though we have built up a loyal base of customers who understand our concept and appreciate our work. If your uncle wants a book like that, he can write his own.
If this is the reason that he won’t feature your book, then he’s not your target audience. You could even create videos on tiktok yourself talking about being approached about removing these characters and not doing it. OP might end up with way more people discovering their work just based on the experience with this book group.
>You could even create videos on tiktok yourself talking about being approached about removing these characters and not doing it.
OP, do this. This is a fantastic idea. Make videos about it, be clear that you're not going to do it (if you're not, and **ask** people what they would do in this circumstance. You can leave out it's your uncle if you don't want to drag in family drama.
It was quite a ride to read it through. I love the idea of someone wanting to make videos or discuss my book for the right reasons. Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed response.
As a writer, I would never change my story based on unsolicited advice. Even more so after having finished it.
If it is attempting to being shared at book clubs and published, then the book is done. It shouldn't be changed after the fact to satisfy a book club, even if they want the colour of a car changed from red to blue, if only on the principle.
Loved your painting, Leonardo ... but do you think Mona Lisa could maybe not have such a resting bitch face? You should lighten her up a little bit. Then we'd be glad to hang your picture in the museum.
This whole thing is weird. It's a strange story about his uncle in the first place, and he just posted an AITA link yesterday where everyone unanimously told him he's NTA and he already discussed all the same points as this thread, yet he says in his OP today that he feels like his uncle had a point? Huh?
And it gets weirder if you look back through his other posts about his book, like [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/15dqbcx/comment/ju40f72/).
I hate to say it guys, but I think this is all an interest-generating ploy.
[This post in particular...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/15dqbcx/comment/ju47zui/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). OP appears to use nothing but implausible guilt-trippy tragic IRL stories to advertise his book.
**Edit: OP blocked me despite me never actually responding or commenting to him directly. Not surprising.**
I'm with you... This is peak reddit theater. It's scary that it has received so many likes and comments with it being a poorly scripted ruse... I could write off the opening chapter being controversial if the controversy were over something more nuanced than whether the grammar is correct or the story is boring.... Red flags everywhere.
Also [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/narcissisticparents/s/NV6NSxRoSi) post about his mother. Also also the ‘I dont think it really has much lgbt rep, just a lesbian, an aro-ace presenting person, and a whole race of people who’s genders are inherently mutable’. Like… your humblebrag needs humbling more.
I'm not in position to be promoted so it's easy for me to say, but fuuuck that. If your book is too gay and woke for them, they can pick another one. Or woe to them if they read something that broadens their mind a little.
A note about ego and self-importance: they're asking a writer to change their own work, which is a project involving considerable emotional investment, for their own shallow motivations. You are not the one with the ego problem. It would be different if it were an editor saying "hey this is likely to sell better with X changes" but that's not what I see here. Let him look like a fool for refusing a book unilaterally rather than at least putting it to a vote.
Signed, a bi guy who would love to see more LGBT representation.
And even if an editor says that, I would walk away before removing any form of diversity. Tell me I need to be more inclusive? Fair enough. Tell me to discriminate more? Our visions do not match.
Authors can argue back. ‘Stet’ is a thing. You might have your contract cancelled, but if it was good enough to be picked up by one bonafide publisher, it’s good enough to be picked up by another.
It's definitely not an ego problem. The book is published. What is he even asking for? A separate published book that doesn't have that stuff in it? Is he just asking to censor how you talk about it at the event? Also a race of aliens that reproduce differently than humans is hardly even LGBTQ representation. It's just Sci Fi. I've never understood when literal ALIENS not conforming to human genders are treated like that. It's like what, you're fine with the laying eggs and scaley skin, but you can't handle gender working a little differently? Come on
> It's like what, you're fine with the laying eggs and scaley skin, but you can't handle gender working a little differently?
It must be that to some people, sci-fi just means "20th century conservative values in space" and avoiding challenging culture whatsoever.
-Adding an edit here because I thought of something relevant. Robert Heinlein's *Space Cadet* was written in the first half of the 20th century, 1940s iirc. Yet he was able to imagine an alien society in which eating was seen as a private action for them, basically like relieving oneself to us. This got me thinking about how some of our norms are completely arbitrary, maybe to the point of ridiculous. Kind of like... insisting straight relationships are okay and gay ones are not. I'd hope a self-professed sci-fi fan will at least have heard of the author. Did they make no similar connections from ideas raised in other books? Or do they only ever re-read *Starship Troopers* as if it's not satire?
100%
I saw the title and wondered if it was a publisher saying "we'd love to pay you for your work, but it's a bit too woke."
This is *wayyyy* beyond that. They feel icky and are asking him to do a *lot* of editing for fucking *nothing.*
Fuck them. All the way around.
They are not right. You can choose whatever you want to portray in your book and whatever you want to change to fit somewhere. You draw your lines that you won't cross and then other people do whatever they want within that limits.
Also, usually changing queer stuff is a bad idea. Even if you "cis-straight-wash it", they won't like you and your ideas and your focus. Your book will read queer. Plus, what shitty sci-fi fans if they don't even want to try any kind of social speculation.
So, don't feel bad. 50 people is not that many. Stand your ground, or even try to contact the group by yourself and present your book without your uncle. Either they like it or they don't. Or you could try to find some queer sci-fi groups, which will be more interested in your story for what it is.
I could see it causing backlash on social media *hard* if OP builds up a fanbase elsewhere, especially if its marketed around specifically these elements
I don't think going behind his back is a good idea. That would probably just create more friction and problems. My best bet is to just accept the lost opportunity and look for other ones.
Could find out more about the group. It could be that he is one of the only ones who are homophobic and sexist. If that's the case, approach the group and do it. It's not just about the book at this point. It's about the homophobia and sexism (wanting the woman character not wanting to marry because she isn't interested in it changed sounds a lot like the sexist ideals of "women should only get married, stay home, take care of the house, and have kids for the man while he goes out and makes money. She should be entirely dependent on him and listen to him.")
If your work is good, it will stand on its own regardless of the characters' sexualities, or decisions of whether or not to marry, or the biology of a species that can choose their own gender. If it's not good, changing those details won't likely save it.
Are you proud of it as it is now? If so, don't change a thing.
TLDR: Bill is a dick.
What kind of fragile, entitled, self-serving prick expects you to write a custom edition of a work to better conform to his out-dated, toxic world view *and then* has the nerve to get pissy and try to guilt you when you say no thanks?
For literally dozens of readers.
Fuck. No.
If it was your *publisher* asking, you'd have to strongly consider it, because being commercial matters and your publisher is there to sell your work and make you famous. But for fucking Bill and a cluster of his chuckle fuck friends?
Fuck. No.
Bill is a dick.
I don’t even think a publisher, unless Christian ran, would ask for them to rewrite or remove certain parts of the book. Bill is just a dick and small minded.
As a child of the 80s and 90s, your LGBT elements sound like the kind of things most fans of the genre should be used to. Did he have a problem with Riker hooking up with Soren 35 years ago or whatever?
Right?? Bill needs to find a better excuse for being a jerkwad. "I'm too old to be a decent and respectful person" doesn't fly.
Signed, an ~over 40~ (gasp)
Bill is being ridiculous. You’ve published the book, which means the project is closed (even as your marketing efforts continue). You had your reasons for writing the characters and plot the way you did, and regardless of reader reactions, that’s that, and what’s done is done.
Further, LGBTQ+ stories are important, and you should not feel as though you have to tone those down to reach certain audiences. Not every book is for every reader; your uncle didn’t have to choose your book, but he did, and that’s on him. If he doesn’t like LGBTQ+ stories, then he has some soul searching to do (although your description makes me think that he probably won’t…).
I didn't even think it would be classified as a LGBTQ+ story. The protagonists are straight and get into a relationship together, so I certainly wouldn't advertise it as such.
Honestly, that makes his objections even sillier. Starship pilots can be lesbian, just like airline pilots can be in our world; princesses can be uninterested in marriage, which I think is covered in at least two Disney movies (bad example, but it’s what I’ve got at the moment); animal gender doesn’t have to be binary (just look at the ocean). He’s out of line.
It's presumptuous of Bill to expect you to change an already complete story for *his event*, its distasteful, and blatantly disrespectful to you as an author.
His group could use it as an opportunity to introduce an LGBT story if he feels it might be heavy on the representation.. it could be a positive thing, instead, *he asks you to change the story*..
If he wants to dictate decisions, write your own story, pal.
This is not a little thing. If I went and scrub off every penis from Michelangelo's work I would be destroying a peice of art. Period. It is beyond offensive that someone demand you change your book and then say "its no big deal". It is a big deal. Being lesbian/asexual/genderfluid affects who the characters are and the choices they make. Your decisions to represent these groups is a part of your art that DEEPENS what happens. Tell Bill that if he doesn't like it, he can write his own book. And if he does write his own book, suggest he change all the characters to fit YOUR personal taste.
P.s. 50 plus year olds are not your demographic. In the long run, their publicity is nothing and possibly harmful if they choose to give bad reviews over LGBT aspects.
This is a case of you might win the battle (get the opportunity) but lose the war (your writing career). The audience you want to reach isn't likely to forgive you doing this even once, regardless of context, and once it came out it would follow you forever. You made the right call to decline.
Also fuck Bill. Guarantee he never would've been this bold with an author who wasn't family, and a generation younger than him to boot.
Well, I'm not giving up yet. I refuse to believe this is the best opportunity I will ever get. I think if I keep my eyes open and keep looking, something else will come up and I will have other chances to get my book out there.
Please know that "Bill" is *not* giving you an opportunity. He is trying to control your book/writing/beliefs by dangling something in front of you he thinks you want, which says more about his own feelings of self importance than anything else. And if you cave, he knows he's got you, he's won. That your choices in your book were only pandering, because you would have pandered to him.
50 people who maybe *some" of them pick up your eBook as a favor? Not worth compromising your story for. Not worth the regret a month down the line that you let someone else take over *your* story. Not to mention, there's no guarantee they all think like Bill. Probably a few in there that would be horrified to learn he required that of you, and even more so that you *did* it. And if not, are they really the kind of readers you want? Because they'll expect more of the same in future books, fyi.
If your family says anything more just shrug, smile, and say "Don't know why he doesn't like my book, you'd have to ask him. Maybe he'll like the one I'm working on next better." Put that onus on *him* to explain.
You will have plenty of chances. If you get real good at organizing and calling around, you can set yourself up pretty decently. Local book shops are sometimes eager to get in a new author.
Seconding this. I read a *lot* of lgbtqia/queer books and if I found out one of the authors released a censored version of their book I would be devastated and feel completely betrayed.
You’re absolutely right to stand your ground, you shouldn’t have to change or edit your book to appease a small group. Not to mention it is a big inconvenience because changing things could lead to a domino effect of haveing to change more and more that now no longer makes sense from the initial changes
I was asked to tone down the swearing in my second novel, which I did - a little - and to remove a single phrase which may have been considered problematic, which I also did.
I would consider a change if it could be interpreted as problematic or hateful without that being a necessary part of the story. For example, a school bully using ablist, derogatory language is part of what makes her an antagonist. But it wouldn't be acceptable for me to have the protagonist using the same language, so I deleted a word that I'd inadvertently used that could also be seen as a slur. I wouldn't deliberately use language or descriptions that would more than likely generate offense, unless that was the intent so that the reader hates a character.
I wouldn't change a text based on possible responses from readers. If I've made a character a certain way, if they've stayed that way through multiple drafts then there's a reason for that! I'm not going to erase a character's sexuality or gender identity or race or disability in case I potentially offend readers like your uncles book club - because for every one reader you potentially alienate, there's another reader who will feel seen and validated because a character in a book was just like them. The world is made up of diverse people, and so too are most fictional worlds. If readers don't like that - tough.
Further more, I think it's a dangerous path to go down. If we as writers start changing our stories to appease certain readers, where do we stop? Is it when they find LGBTQ characters offensive? Do we remove all references to characters being different races? Do we start casting genders in their traditional roles, because that fits with the worldview of most of a particular book club? Will our next book be written with them in mind, self-editing our work to appease a certain section of society?
Write the story you feel compelled to write, and as long as it's not massively problematic or terribly written, it will find an audience. There will be other book groups and other readers besides your uncle's book club, who frankly sound homo/transphobic. Would you want a slew of book reviews knowing that they were only happy to read your book because you made all the characters heterosexual?
EDIT TO ADD: Just noticed the bit about creating a different version for Bill's group. No, no, no. How would you market that? STRAIGHT VERSION- now free of gayness? Choose your book - with or without asexual and queer characters.
It would be massively detrimental to you as a writer because it shows you've bowed to pressure to erase certain identities. You'd be really stupid to listen to your family.
>As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right. I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that.
This isn't a case of reacting badly to criticism, this is a case of setting healthy boundaries. It's not like he's saying he felt those particular characters were too one-dimensional, lacked development, or detract too much from the core plot of the story. He's asking you to put in extra work you never agreed to do, simply to cater it to the exact preferences of his social circle.
He's also showing a profound disrespect to the craft. If your characters are more than token representations of LGBTQ culture and are fully developed characters, then each aspect of their identity contributes to their personal history and informs how they interact with the world. Changing those things aren't as simple as flipping a switch, it's more like unravelling the pattern in the middle of tapestry. You pull on one thread and half the thing comes comes apart because of how intertwined it all is.
This would all be true if it was in one of the later drafts, but your book is already published. It's a little too late to be making significant changes to the story. You can incorporate their feedback for the next book, but it's unreasonable to be asking for you to gut the story and rewrite it once it's out in the world.
As for your family saying you're "overreacting", they are gaslighting you. I encourage you to ignore that kind of manipulation and disrespect for your boundaries.
I initially wrote a longer response, but I realized it can be boiled down to one sentence:
Bill can get fucked.
I would have given him the double-birds and walked away backwards. You did the right thing by not giving in.
No, fuck that. What he did was not fair or constructive criticism, it was an attempt at censorship. He wasn't seeking to improve your work, he was just seeking to change it. There's a difference. You did the right think on principle.
Fuck Uncle Bill and fuck the members of your family who sided with him and good on you. Why are his social problems more important than your creativity? He's telling you in effect that you should compromise your hard work and artistic vision so it won't embarrass him in front of his friends. So he clearly hasn't accepted you as an artist, which means he has no reason whatsoever to be shopping you around to them as such.
Furthermore, there's a very good chance he's taking it upon himself to be offended on behalf of people who might not be offended at all if allowed to see your original material and make up their own minds.
So, yeah, you're not the asshole.
Is it "too gay" for the group, or for your uncle? There are definitely a lot of intolerant old people. But there are plenty of old people with tolerance coming out their ass. Your uncle may be passing off his problem as their problem.
I've considered this. However, if I go around him to find out that will probably cause more problems and I just want to leave the entire situation behind me. It sucks to lose out on an opportunity like that, but I just have to accept the loss and move on.
This is not something you should ever compromise on. You did the right thing, and stick to your guns. Your uncle needs to get over himself.
If it bothers them so much about the LGBTQ stuff they can write fanfiction to change that.
Honestly, do you *want* your readership to be Bill's homophobic reading group? If yes, make the edits and republish. But it doesn't sound like that's who you want your readership to be, so move on. You don't have to cater to everyone. In fact, you *can't* cater to everyone.
Pick your readership and market to them, not market to all readers.
And just tell your family that it's already published, so you can't make major changes. It's too late. That should solve the family front.
And if you put it on KU, you can't distribute your own ebook versions anyway, so you can use that as an excuse if you need to.
Not to mention ive never really seen that done in the u.s. book market were theirs different versions of the book for different political/religious views. I would dare say making those edits would set an dangerous precedent for future writers
Don't do it, stand your ground. Screw Bill and his hateful demands. If this is what you want to write, you will find your audience. Don't ruin it for his audience.
I've gotten crap for the smallest amount of hardly mentioned LGBTQ content and my response was simple: I won't change my story unless I want to, and certainly not to soothe your bigotry.
Something better will come along. This person seems to have been presenting themselves as something they are not (imo).
It's okay not to accept the first "scrap" thrown your way - in fact, it's basically required if you want to get what you're actually worth in this world. When it comes to your creative works, don't settle. Family members can make it hard, but the truth is - they are usually the first and biggest obstacle on the road to success. It's usually because they are accustomed to seeing you in a certain light - and this endeavor, this success is a part of them that they don't know how to handle.
Personally, I don't think you're overreacting - and truthfully, there's a much larger audience than your friends or family out there. If your work was that good, you won't have trouble finding someone else who feels the same exact way without those changes. So, imo - don't do it!
Those who do usually regret it.
NTA. Your family thinks it's no big deal to rewrite your book just to appease bigots??? WTF.
I would have told Bill and everyone who took his side to fuck off right to their faces is what I would have done. Of course, I also told a diner full of elderly people that they were on the wrong side of history and the world would be a better place when they were dead when they started loudly bitching when the Oberfell decision was announced on the news, so I'm probably less confrontation-averse than the average person lol.
These people love sci-fi/fantasy and he wants you to remove LGBT content?
Have they never read The Left Hand of Darkness? This Is How You Lose The Time War? Anything by Iain M. Banks?
No, your book is YOUR book. You poured your blood, sweat, and tears into it. You don't write a second version for bigots.
Sorry if I'm calling out your family here, but anyone who wants you to change an already finished work for that... Well I calls it like I sees it.
Fuck those guys, fuck your family for seeing it that way. Bill is the self important one, he wants something from you, he set this whole thing up and now he's demanding you cater to him. It's your damn book and if he doesn't like it he can damn well find another one. Also it's just blatantly homophobic and idk why the rest of this thread is being ambivalent about that.
"Holy fuck what a bunch of entitled snowflakes." I'm apologize for speaking ill of your family, but I thought I should frankly tell you my honest reaction while reading.
I think, approached a different way, with them just telling you things they honestly thought would improve the story (for example, the items you mentioned you were open to) are proper feedback. But I think I would have just ignored recommendations to change sexual orientation or other character aspects of your characters, because those are, in the end, integral elements of your story.
Feedback needs to be feedback, not pressure. Gently tell your family so, while properly thanking them for their advice. That's as far as you should go for them.
> Members of my family have approached me and said that I am overreacting. That my own ego and self-importance for my writing were causing problems for Bill and that changing my book didn't need to be such a big deal. I tried to say that I was open to toning down the violence or the one intimate scene in the book, but they said that one change is no different than the other and I should be open to what Bill wants.
Love how so often people seem to be expected to just cater to the unreasonable idiot instead of telling the unreasonable idiot off. More convenient I suppose.
Even if you had no issue changing the book to take out all passages that might be read as "gay" - which would be at least questionable - this is still a shitton of work.
If I was you, I would probably just tell your uncle that, yes, you can edit your book to his likings so it can be presented to the 50 people, but since you will have to put in a lot of work in a presumably very limited time span, he will have to pay you the equivalent of 50 purchases upfront.
Then again, I dont have as strong ethics as others, so you might just decide that even if he somehow agreed to that condition, you dont want to sell out your work and cater to bigots.
This isn't criticism of your work, it's criticism of your political beliefs and your morality, as reflected in your work.
You're not over-reacting, you're simply declining to abrogate your own moral standards to pander to bigots.
Succeed or fail, but do it with integrity and you'll never have regrets.
Kudos. Stay strong.
I commend you for standing by your work, especially against homophobia. Family thinks that because they are family, they have a way to control people, and I'm glad you didn't give in.
If they don't like those aspects of your book, then they are not your target audience, and you will find others who appreciate your work! Personally, I go nuts over any LGBT+ representation, and am intrigued by the little I know of it!
If your uncle Bill is anything like my uncle Bill, and it sounds like he is, then he’s not really trying to give you an opportunity. He wants to make himself look good by showcasing his niece/nephew the writer to his friends, but then suddenly got embarrassed at what people may think of that gay shit.
You and he made an agreement for you to meet his group. You are staying faithful to your end of the bargain. I’m not sure how you’re communicating about this, but you should just say that you are happy to be doing the event and refuse discussion of any editorial fuckery.
Yo I am so proud! Would have been so easy to just censor it but nah you know what's right. Im a copywriter and have turned down paying work because they wanted my content on a right wing, anti lgbtqi+, or conspiracy site. It's your name. If you arent happy with what is produced, dont let any9ne tell you how to represent yourself and your beliefes. This is awesome, love you!
He seriously asked you for a bigot edit lool that's hilarious. The amount of unpaid labor he asks you to do is ridiculous, I hope he looks like a fool to all of his friends.
He offered to expose you to this group, informed the group, and made plans. Only then did he demand content changes. Simply from that perspective, he's 100% in the wrong. It's not like you agreed to make changes and then backed out... he's the one breaking the deal!
Further, Uncle Bill is doing that China thing -- censor your work or you won't be allowed access this audience. Your book is done. It's unreasonable to ask you to rework it for an audience that apparently can't handle the most gentle exposure of LGBTQ stuff.
On top of that, he's asking you to essentially lie about your book's content. This group would be exposed to and recommending a book that is *different* from the censored one they real. Unless you're going to have two distinct versions, one emblazoned with "GAY-FREE EDITION" on the cover and one with "WARNING: LESBIAN" to help a bunch of grown-up babies pick up the copy they won't make them feel icky about the gays.
**You are completely, 100% in the right. You are the author. This is your book. It's absurd to ask you to put in extra work to make different versions of it. They either like it for what it is, or they don't.**
You’re not egotistical nor self important in any way for refusing to pander to homophobes. Don’t betray your convictions. That would cause far more pain in the long run than losing out on a bigger audience. The best art is the art that is genuine. I’d love to read your book as it is.
Your Uncle Bill is an asshole. He and his book group have the right to not read your book if it's not the kind of book they'd like, and you have the right to write whatever kind of book you want.
>Members of my family have approached me and said that I am overreacting.
Your family is homophobic, I am sorry to say.
>I worry that they might be right.
They're not.
I posted this on r/AmItheAsshole, but it got taken down due to the Mods not wanting it to be a discussion on "Social Issues" I disagreed, but I respected their decision. Thought it would be a better discussion here for writers about censorship and the lengths we go to publicize our work.
Well to answer the question you asked there, you're not the asshole. Bill is the asshole, and anyone saying otherwise at the very least doesn't understand the work that goes into writing a novel.
So wait, you already published it, it’s done. And he’s asking you to essentially rewrite it? I have no idea how long this book is but that sounds like so much work to me. There’s an audience out there for what you created. Bill ain’t it. If he chooses to take that personally that’s on him. Wishing you much luck friend. Your book sounds super cool to me.
And this is the correct reaction. Or at the very least simply tell him that it seems like he has his own story that he wants to tell and that perhaps it would be better if he wrote it himself if its so important to him.
guys this is probably not a real thing that actually happened in real life
[OP's reddit account has been shamelessly promoting their book for a while now](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/15dqbcx/emailed_my_friend_an_early_draft_of_my_book_didnt/)
I don't want my book to get attention for causing my family problems. I have considered sending it off to Libraries in the bible belt to see if it gets banned. That's the kind of publicity I can get behind.
Bill sounds like a bigoted nerd. Do what you want but don't change your story. These things exist as aspects of real life. If they want to wear blinders and shun other human beings who aren't harming them or others, he can go fuck off.
Bill is in the wrong for springing a condition on you at the last minute. You are under no obligation to change your book to meet the sensibilities of a single, small book club. If you had agreed to changing the book and then changed your mind, that would be one thing, but if you agreed to the event and then later Bill said you needed the change the book, that's on Bill. He changed the terms, not you.
As for your family saying you're willing to do some changes you should be willing to do any changes, that's obviously absurd if you just think about it a little. You were open to hearing feedback, but ultimate you disagree with the feedback and are going to keep your book in the version you think is better. Your family is basically saying that because you're open to changing the book if you agree it would make the book better, you should be willing to change the book when you think it would make it worse. They're not the same.
You're also certainly not being egotistical for keeping your book the way you want it, it's your book. It's your family demanding you change it for their pleasure that are being egotistical. If they want the book a certain way and only a certain way, they can go write their own.
I would've also backed out, but that may mostly be because of why I write. It's not money, fame, I don't even particularly expect people to read it. I just like the characters and worlds I've crafted and I want them to exist.
But, from a more objective view, there are a few types of critism, and this the type you shouldn't listen to. I'm not sure what it's called, but it's not an actual problem with the writing, they just don't like it.
As a queer person who writes for queer people, I'd laugh in his face. I write "normal" YA fantasy but most of my characters are lgbtq. It's not even a romance exactly (tho it features two grown men married who foster teens) so I'm sure my book will be very controversial when I'm finally finished with it. Good. I'm looking forward to it.
I'm a trans woman, a lesbian, and a feminist.
That *will* come across in most of what I write. I tend to write stories centered on queer women. If someone has a problem with that, they are more than welcome to tell me. But I'm not exactly inclined to listen to them either.
Sure, my screenplay about man-eating lesbian werewolves (I wrote it for a screenwriting class FWIW) isn't to everyone's taste. But it's my story, and if I say, made the human love interest/main character a guy, it wouldn't feel authentic. My first book featured a poly lesbian relationship between two princesses(one of whom, the protagonist, was transgender and intersex) and a prostitute; I could have compromised, say, having the one princess break it off and go marry a guy. But at the end of the day, it felt wrong not having the three together. It didn't get published due to being milquetoast fantasy but I'm half considering reusing the world and those characters, but already established as married queens with some more obviously sci-fi elements than i had previously as opposed to the more generic 'fight for the throne' crap I'd written before.
Bill and your family are wrong, wrong, wrong. Never censor your own work for any reason. Not to promote it. Not to please an audience. Not to please the government. Bill and his book group can either accept the book as it is written or, like you said, find another author/book.
I mean if the plot of the story isn’t about the characters being lgbt
An they just so happen to have that as a part of them? I feel like that’s fleshes out the characters and world. Even if it was a sc-fi story about the aspect of being lgbt then why agree to it if you had an issue with it? Plus like others said he’s not paying you for these changes sooooo I’d stick with what you wrote because there is definitely a market of people who wouldn’t care about such minuscule things in the story.
I don’t think you’re overreacting I just think your uncle sounds a little self entitled and if he has an issue with LGBT then oh well. It’s 2023 🤷🏾♂️💀
Proud of you OP.
Sometimes when our values align with the universe, and we standby a truth that sometimes we only know, every single person who uses us will come out of the woodwork barking and thrashing.
Why should you have to go out of your way to change **your** book because old uncle Bill doesn't like certain parts of it? That's incredibly selfish of them.
50 people isn't that big of an opportunity to warrant another round of edits lol. he's essentially trying to commission a custom novel and work for free so you could either choose to tell him no or to charge an hourly rate. I recommend $100 an hour with a minimum of 10 depending on how extensive the changes are. don't work for free, and if you have to change your book significantly to get it in front of those people then it isn't your book that youd be promoting is it? don't tell him how to get out of the mess either as that would also be work he hasn't paid you for.
It'd be bad enough if they want to you not to *read* parts of your book. To demand a rewrite is absurd. Also, it sounds like they wouldn't like your book and they want another book so that's hardly a good opportunity. Do some research into promotion, you'll find your audience.
Also, be a hustler. I take copies of my book when I go out to shows, bars, etc. I sell up to 5 a night sometimes. My topic is something that kind of sells itself because a lot of people are interested in it. However, I'd buy a book from anyone if they came up to me and said they wrote it.
> It's over 50 people with a couple of online book bloggers with some decent following, so I thought it was a huge stroke of luck and a great opportunity.
That (and family pressure) may be a lot of weight on his side of the ring, but personally - I'd distribute the original version and ask around through the members who read it and want to give feedback on it, *Especially* the book bloggers. Unless Bill is an incredibly influential person in the field, he's a lightweight, and there is some serious demand for LGBTQA+ characters in fiction when presented/portrayed accurately. Some of the rest of the book group may agree with you, others may not, and you're taking a bit of a risk here. Bill cannot stop you from reaching out to the group itself (or its members) no matter what position he holds in it, once he's given that invitation. And you don't have to tell him whether the version you're distributing to the members of the book club is the original or a version edited to his standards.
> I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that.
Then fuckin' don't!
It's there on the table (metaphorically - sending it to them digitally will probably be better), they can read it or not as they wish, and offer suggestions about what they think should be changed. Whether you bother taking those suggestions is 110% up to you.
They may not be your target audience, but you can probably find one if the story itself is halfway decent - an audience that will absolutely *rejoice* at LGBTQA+ characters being included. (Source ~~my ass~~, I've known a lot of people who were openly gay or bisexual, or were kinda happy to see that idea represented, and some who weren't. You're spinning a roulette wheel here, and if you win this time, betting against Bill, that's gonna be awesome. If you go to another casino and play roulette there ...maybe somebody's gonna just love it and you'll win big. You get my drift.)
> Have you ran into a similar situation? As an author or reader, what would you have done?
I fucking talked a board on 4chan into accepting a narrative that had the Three Faces Of Eve, and how awful that interpretation of femininity is, as a plot point. Oh, and several LGBTQA+ characters. And I got away with it and people kept reading.
Don't let your uncle dictate what you can and can't write.
So Bill is fine with aliens, spaceships, and fantasy elements but draws the line at gay characters and a woman who's not interested in romance? He is prejudiced. Don't change your book for him.
I tried to write a well thought out response like some of the other commentators that defend you, but I kept erasing it. My argument mainly comes down to this: fuck em, as requesting to tone down LGBTQ themes when they are not central to the plot isn't valid criticism, but rather something they don't like and thus would like to be removed; this is under the assumption that LGBTQ themes AREN'T central to the plot, but rather just their identity (like how Levi from AoT is good at killing Titans, but hates messy shit. It's a quirk, not what defines his entire character, his arc, or the plot; it's about killing Titans, not whether Levi can get over his germaphobia to kill Titans.) and if LGBTQ themes are central to the plot, then it MAY be a valid criticism, or a matter of taste. But seeing as it is a fucking SCIENCE FICTION book with fantasy elements, and that all his criticisms are toning down or removing LGBTQ characters, I'm under the assumption that his issue is SOLELY with the LGBTQ themes. Tl;Dr: if it's central to the plot, the request to tone down the LGBTQ themes is a matter of taste, and if it's not, then he's just an asshole who doesn't like LGBTQ themes. Also, regarding people saying your ego has gotten the better of you? Fuck em.
Out of interest, what does this group think of the Banks' Culture series? Because people there can change their gender as adults, and it is sort of seen as a bit weird if you don't spend some time as the opposite gender (plus if born male then also have a child as a woman). And it's about as popular a Sci fi series as you get. The Player of Games goes even further into this, and is often seen as the best place to start.
Honestly what you have written seems very tame. I'm not even looking to be published, just in here because of the great stories, so I can't say what I would do in your place. But 50 people and a couple of bloggers doesn't seem much to compromise your art for. A $1m book deal I could understand, but this?
So your uncle read it and liked it and then later on he (or his group will) disapprove of a LGBTQ+ inclusive sci-fi novel? I have to assume if your book was too LGBTQ+ preachy then it would have been an issue with him long before he suggested presenting it to his book club. He wouldn't have suggested it for his group or if it was a "him" issue he wouldn't have finished the book all together.
For me personally, you don't fuck with the artists in your family. You encourage them and suggest they look for constructive criticism a bit further from home. For my personal boundaries, your uncle is far overstepping the line and your family has the wrong back. They should be encouraging you to be... You. And not to change for anyone.
So he "liked" the book so much he wanted you to basically rewrite the whole thing so it would appeal to his macho friends?
You honestly made me laugh xD
Your "uncle" wanted to brag about having an author in the family but didn't like to aknowledge the fact that his bigotry doesn't align with what you do. And he had the balls to actually ask you to work for free to suit his preferences.
Tell him ghost writers charge for their work, as do freelance authors hired to write an especific story for third parties. Then check up the average price per word where you live and give him an estimate depending of the length.
"One change is no different than the other"
These people think sex and violence are equivalent to queer people merely *existing*, apparently? That's bigotry, plain and simple. Of course you aren't wrong. Don't sell out on basic human decency, you shouldn't be expected to.
These people aren't your audience if they don't like the story you're telling. Promoting to them does nothing because they are not your audience. Changing things for them doesn't help you in selling the writer you are.
"Oh I'm so sorry the book wasn't to your taste, Billy. I'm going to spend my time marketing to my audience instead of changing my game. Best of luck finding a book that does work for you."
Then do that.
This isn't about quality, it's about voice. Find your people.
No no no no no no, fuck that noise. Sorry to break it to you but your uncle and his friends are homophobic. And I dont throw that term around lightly, but completely erasing any lgbt themes is just that. And it's a terrible and horrific thing to ask.
Dont you dare feel bad about anything. Please stand your ground firmly. This is YOUR book, your story, your characters, YOU put all the work into it.
Erasing lgbt themes IS NOT CRITICISM. It's blatant homophobia.
I'm outraged on your behalf. And srsly fuck your family members for being pushy on this, they should support YOU. Not the homophobic uncle.
No, you stick to it! This is so important as representation, we need more casually queer characters! Promote it in the LGBT+ community instead and find more of your people. Get a market stall at Pride days etc. We will support you instead!
"it's my thing, if you like it then you can and show it off to other people, if you like it besides one thing that you want me to change for your sake because I'd do that for some reason..." You see the idiocy in what he wants
I would have said that I'm not changing what I wrote. And then ask him why he wanted that.
He may have been uncomfortable about the matter due to someone coming to the meeting. Because he said he liked it.
You should also post this in AITA. Anyhow…
IMO you should keep your book as-is, and maybe tell Bill that unfortunately, the elements in the book that are “too gay” for him are important to keep in the book and are central to the storyline. Then telling him “but!!! I do have a much less gay book coming out soon that I know your group would love. How about that?” (Up to you if you ever want to do that)
Then if that’s not good enough, you can offer to provide a few “not too gay” chapters of your “too gay” book.
Btw Bill’s request sounds insane in this day and age. You’d think you were Chuck Tingle by how he’s reacting.
I guess you could also ask Bill to just present your book as-is to the group. Or ask him who the homophobe is in the group so you know who not to talk to.
Bill is the worst kind of idiot. An egotistical idiot.
He told the group you’d be presenting your book without confirming it with you first, then said you had to change the *already published* book to fit his preferences in order to do the event, then got mad when you didn’t want to do the event.
Stick to your guns on this. Your book doesn’t need a homophobe-friendly edition.
There is a huge difference between constructive criticism and censorship. He's asking you to change something because it offends him, not because changing it would improve the story. He's not trying to make your novel better, he's trying to make it less queer. If he doesn't want to present it as is, that's his problem. He is not your editor.
Some of the most famous pieces of Science fiction have characters that change sex: Left hand of Darkness and The Culture series spring to mind.
Tell your uncle to take it or leave it.
It is a big change and he should have talked those over with you before.
The other thing is: Every book has its audience. Your audience, naturally, doesn't seem to be people who do not like lgbtq+ themes. There are enough books out there for them.
Would you even feel alright about having two versions of the book, where one is "Oh and this one is for everyone who do not want an asexual princess"? / "And this is the version we can put up in texan schools."
A thought: your uncle "Bill" may simply have the goal of making you remove, from your book, anything he doesn't like. And he's using the prospect of his book club as a smoke screen, including more trying to guilt you into changing your book because _he_ would be embarrassed.
You don't need that kind of person in your life, really. You definitely do not need to protect them from embarrassing themselves due to their own homophobia.
>As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right. I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that.
You did the right thing, and you are not reacting badly to criticism, you are exercising your right to write what YOU want to write. Changing the book for bigotry purposes IS a big deal. Don't do it, and promote your book somewhere else.
You did the right thing. It was not criticism, it was censorship.
And even if it wasn't discrominatory and bigot, and if it was criticism, it's still pretty weird to ask (with what compentency, then?) to edit an ALREADY PUBLISHED book. Editors can do that (before); readers can suggest it (before), but not ask or tell you to.
This is not a big opportunity and you are right to stand by your values. Anyway, you don’t want to be associated with bigotry.
Asking to remove characters due to them being lgbtq+ is a big thing to ask.
Sounds like Bill made his own problems, not you. If he started planning out events just assuming you were going to change the book for him, well that's a massive presumption on his part.
> As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right. I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that.
That is absolutely not what is happening here. He's asking for you to make political changes to the book, not quality changes. The fact that people are getting on your case about it says a lot more about them than it does you.
>Turns out his suggestions all involve removing LGBTQ elements from my book.
I will stop here.
It is your book. Your story. In a sense, it is your child.
And just like with a real child, everyone is going to give you wanted and unwanted advice how to do their upbringing.
But it is your child, not theirs. The ultimate decision which part of the advice to implement, if any, should be yours and yours alone.
>I didn't think there was much to begin with, but evidently having a lesbian starship pilot, a princess who isn't interested in romance/marriage, **and a race of reptilian warriors who could choose their own gender at adolescence** was too "gay" for his group.
These reptilian warriors sound supercool. I’m definitely interested!
Man I want to read your book from the description, but I guess if it's self published and only local it might be hard to get it here :(
Don't censor your work, they just need to get with the times
a book group is not a "big event". an editor reaching out and paying you to cater your work so it is more in line with the publishing house would be a big event. do not yield. uncle bill can fuck right off.
I’d ask your family if they’re idiots? Call that crap out when you hear it.
Ask them to explain they’re reasoning. They won’t have anything that requires any thought. I see this type of thing a lot in various situations. They don’t care about the issue. They care about the personal aggravation it causes them. They don’t want to hear Bills whining, so they think you’re easier to deal with. They just don’t want to hear it. It’s not that they care about the book or him.
So ask them exactly what is reasonable about his request to change even one word in your book? Something he had nothing to do with. He just randomly decided he wanted changed. He’s not an editor. He doesn’t work for a publishing house. Maybe you love/like him as family, but as far as books go, he’s a nobody that can put it in front of a couple of people. Why would you change anything for him?
That’s like telling one of your relatives that you don’t care for the color of there car. If they spend $12,000 and get it painted a color you like, you’ll allow them to come visit their double wide with the over grown yard and the truck up on cinderblocks.
I think you should find the groups page and forward a copy of the book to them, or some promotional material. Tell them you’re really sorry the event didn’t happen. You were looking forward to it when your uncle told you they cancelled it. He didn’t say why, but you hope you can come some other time when they do have one.
Just throw him under the bus.
Screw them, not even just for being a bunch of bigots. Screw them for just assuming you would edit down your book specifically for them. Thats so entitled. They clearly have no clue how much effort goes into editing and reworking a book.
This... logistically makes no sense? Your book is already published. I guess you could make a No Gays Edition... but you'd have to buy a new ISBN. You'd have to market it differently. It's just a Whole Thing.
Not every book is designed for every audience. Nobody is asking GRRM to make a book without death and sex so they can read it to their 8 year old at bedtime. Nobody is demanding that Rick Riordan to add spice to his *Percy Jackson* books so they fit with girls' Steamy Book Clubs. Your book is your book. Does he have any idea how publishing work lmao.
I would of laughed so hard in his face. Yeah let me change my fucking book for your closed minded ass group. The amount of disrespect to even ask that of you is hilarious levels of bullshit.
This publisher needs to read some Becky Chambers books. She's a Hugo Award winner and she's got a race that naturally changes its gender on a daily/weekly basis.
Hell, Ursula Le Guin touched on that even before her.
Sounds like you need a new publisher. On the bright side, this one at least helped you better prep your book for whomever you find to be your next publisher. All that editing and typo-fixing wasn't a waste I'm sure.
Apart from his ask being unreasonable and bigoted, you aren’t the one backing out of the deal you two made - he is. The deal you agreed to didn’t contain his „changes“. It is so toxic of him to paint you as a flake when he tried to pressure you into forsaking your principles by making the deal beforehand, having people look forward to the event and mobilizing family to pressure you even more. What an asshole.
I wouldn't censor it. And I'd take a list of the homophobic family members. My grandparents will beg me to sit down and read some of what I'm currently working on. Even the queer aspects.
Don't listen to the homophobes, they have enough representation.
I would have doubled down, made a second version of the manuscript which was as flamingly gay as possible, and hid some gay porn in the folds of the pages. Then I would thank them all for their advice, hand them each a copy, and let them know that their advice was very helpful, and that I can't wait to hear what they think. Then I'd sign them each up for every free pro-queer newsletter that I can think of. I was about to say "then I'd never show up again," But knowing myself, I'd absolutely be there next week to see their reactions.
So he wants you to engage in unpaid labor for him and he set up the event before getting your agreement to do it? This is on him. He got ahead of himself. Also, his reason is kinda sus - like it’s about the group being biased rather than the quality of the work. In any event, this won’t be the first time someone provides an unhelpful critique of your work. At a certain point, your work is what it is, and there’s a market for sci-fi with LGBT elements. I mean, Dune from forever ago has LGBT elements.
Excellent point. I keep forgetting Dune had that in the story. The book is so dense I get lost every time I pick it up again.
Sci-fi has had prominent LGBTQ elements since the 1960s - if these folks are 40+ and have been reading sci-fi, then they will have encountered this before unless they went out of their way to avoid it.
I think we are missing part of the story. 40 year olds were born the 80s not the 1940s. The concepts referenced have been around in sci fi longer than this book club. Left Hand of Darkness is a sci-fi classic with gender switching characters, for example. Some of Heinlein’s stuff makes me blush. These people have seen it all before. So my question to the OP is why would this group be so opposed to the concepts? The demographic and genre doesn’t explain it. Is there an explanation of some sort? It could be those parts are coming across too woke, as they say, and trying too hard to be edgy when those concepts are older than dirt in sci fi or it could be this is a group of horrible homophobes. If it’s the latter then what’s the question here? Why would you even consider changing it in that case? Makes no sense. Feels like we are missing something.
Yeah. I’m 43 and this sort of stuff definitely isn’t a concern amongst me or my peer group. I suspect this group has other factors beyond their age that make this an issue.
I am 52 and this is not an issue for me either . Nor was it to my parents, but they were in Vietnam and served with AA and gay men who they remained friends with as I was growing up .
My mom is 70 and will probably climb over a table to attack if you start deliberately misgendering people. She has an 80 year old sister who also supports both gay and trans rights. The female judge who just ruled against a nude spa in favor of a trans plaintiff is in her 80s. Biden is very LGBT-friendly and in his 80s, as is Bernie Sanders.
it's not the group. it's the uncle
Tbf this could be less of the group having a problem with it and more of the uncle having a problem with it.
It's definitely just the uncle.
My thought as well
> I think we are missing part of the story. 40 year olds were born the 80s not the 1940s. STOP NO I WAS BORN IN 86
> 40 year olds were born the 80s not the 1940s. The concepts referenced have been around in sci fi longer than this book club. Left Hand of Darkness is a sci-fi classic with gender switching characters, for example. Some of Heinlein’s stuff makes me blush. These people have seen it all before. Yes, that was my point. Is it a political or religiously based group? Is it just the uncle and not the group that has a problem here? Or are you suggesting the whole story is a fabrication?
It depends on the country. They things I've heard where I live... Mostly form people in the 40 - 55 range
I wonder what these book club fuddy duddies would think of Ursula Le Guin or Octavia Butler.
Give em some Samuel R Delaney.
Or Theodore Sturgeon or Jacqueline Carey.
I love Jacqueline Carey ❤️
Before that, even — [The World Well Lost](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Well_Lost) came out in 1953
I am going back to read all of the above !! Thanks guys !
Is it the group that has problems or is it just your uncle?
People today whine and bitch that Star Trek "got woke". And yet, Star Trek from day one in the 60s has always been "woke", They don't have a clue what the word means and they think everything is an attack on them.
First interracial kiss on American TV I believe. It's so woke it literally pushed boundaries.
I remember watching a commentary on the DVD pack I had where they talked about it, and it wasn't even supposed to have that, studio execs wanted that scene reshot, and Shatner was supposed to look up at the camera instead. But when they filmed it, he crossed his eyes to ruin the shot, and they had to use the earlier take with the kiss.
It’s more that it was the first lip kiss between Black and white actors on American TV. There had been kisses between Asian and white actors before, and a cheek kiss with Nancy Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr. Still very important! But not the first interracial kiss overall.
As for a market, queer people like me are absolutely **dying** for more stories featuring queer characters
And old hateful bigots are literally dying, so not the best market
Which are those again? I don't remember any but it's been a couple years since I read it
I mainly remember the female assassin forces when the replica of Duncan is learning about the original Duncan in one of the advanced timelines, engaged in lesbian sex. But it was kind of described as unnatural or his reaction to it was discomfort/disgust. And the Baron was also gay, but he was also a sadistic pedophile so that's not the best representation. I don't remember much past that. Edit to add this may have been in one of the sequels of the series of Dune rather than the first book alone.
Yeah, Dune generally has a very 50s take on sexual morality. I wouldn't hold it up as an example of good representation. But sexual morality is a central theme, so those queer elements still have to be present. If Bill's reading group read a censored version of Dune they would miss that thread of the theme, ironically one that they might even agree with.
Dune has LGBT elements but also kind of hates gay people. A villain being gay is more acceptable to homophobes. I like Dune. But I wouldn’t say it’s queer elements are a positive for it or a good example of queer stuff in sci fi.
>As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right. They're not. Let's imagine you make these changes. It's not really simple cuts or edits. Sure, you can make edits to change the gender of the lesbian pilots partner, but changing an entire species biology and therefore it's culture could be huge, and then with the princess you might need to write in a whole new character as a love interest. That's a huge investment of time, which is time taken away from writing the next book. That's a financial hit you could be taking. But okay, let's say you do all that. You know have two versions of your book. You can't put them both on Amazon. So let's say you have the lgbt version on amazon and the non-lgbt version on kobo. An lgbt booktokker finds your book on amazon, likes it, makes a vid, and it goes viral. Their lgbt viewers all buy your books - but a lot of them end up with the non-lgbt version. They discover what you did, and you go viral again but this time not for a good reason. That's a reputation hit you could be taking. A local book group now wants you to do a reading, but they don't like that some of your characters are Black. They want you to change it and point out you already did this once before. You could refuse, but changing the lgbt characters and not the Black characters proves you're actually homophobic (to some people) although, hey, you're not racist. That's a reputation hit you could be taking. Or maybe you do change it. That's a huge investment of time, which is time taken away from writing the next book. That's a financial hit you could be taking. At what point do you stop rewriting the same book because different readers want different things? How many versions do you end up with? Will you ever write a second book or just continually rewrite the first one? Okay, it might not go that way or that badly, this was an extreme example.
Exactly. I just saw a video go viral on tiktok with a fan meeting their long time favorite author/book who (the fan) is now trans 10+ years later. They thanked him for his unwavering commitment to the LGBTQ community, especially in the wake of all the anti-queer BS happening right now. Millions of views and the author probably has thousands more people reading their work bc of that interaction. Never change your work because someone gives you their ‘shoulds’. My husband and I own a small food business and we get ‘shoulds’ from people all the time. Even though we have built up a loyal base of customers who understand our concept and appreciate our work. If your uncle wants a book like that, he can write his own. If this is the reason that he won’t feature your book, then he’s not your target audience. You could even create videos on tiktok yourself talking about being approached about removing these characters and not doing it. OP might end up with way more people discovering their work just based on the experience with this book group.
>You could even create videos on tiktok yourself talking about being approached about removing these characters and not doing it. OP, do this. This is a fantastic idea. Make videos about it, be clear that you're not going to do it (if you're not, and **ask** people what they would do in this circumstance. You can leave out it's your uncle if you don't want to drag in family drama.
It was quite a ride to read it through. I love the idea of someone wanting to make videos or discuss my book for the right reasons. Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed response.
As a writer, I would never change my story based on unsolicited advice. Even more so after having finished it. If it is attempting to being shared at book clubs and published, then the book is done. It shouldn't be changed after the fact to satisfy a book club, even if they want the colour of a car changed from red to blue, if only on the principle.
Loved your painting, Leonardo ... but do you think Mona Lisa could maybe not have such a resting bitch face? You should lighten her up a little bit. Then we'd be glad to hang your picture in the museum.
More like "Then we'll be glad to hang it in our house and show a couple of our friends."
This whole thing is weird. It's a strange story about his uncle in the first place, and he just posted an AITA link yesterday where everyone unanimously told him he's NTA and he already discussed all the same points as this thread, yet he says in his OP today that he feels like his uncle had a point? Huh? And it gets weirder if you look back through his other posts about his book, like [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/15dqbcx/comment/ju40f72/). I hate to say it guys, but I think this is all an interest-generating ploy. [This post in particular...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/15dqbcx/comment/ju47zui/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). OP appears to use nothing but implausible guilt-trippy tragic IRL stories to advertise his book. **Edit: OP blocked me despite me never actually responding or commenting to him directly. Not surprising.**
I'm with you... This is peak reddit theater. It's scary that it has received so many likes and comments with it being a poorly scripted ruse... I could write off the opening chapter being controversial if the controversy were over something more nuanced than whether the grammar is correct or the story is boring.... Red flags everywhere.
What really gets me is that this is apparently the only way he markets the book, by guilt-tripping people with these absurd sob stories.
LOL. I spotted the fakeness by only reading this post. Your dig in their reddit history is precious.
well spotted -- another spammer
Also [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/narcissisticparents/s/NV6NSxRoSi) post about his mother. Also also the ‘I dont think it really has much lgbt rep, just a lesbian, an aro-ace presenting person, and a whole race of people who’s genders are inherently mutable’. Like… your humblebrag needs humbling more.
I've just sighed in soft baritone.
That's a fantastic example. I'll use that if anyone argues with me about it.
I'm not in position to be promoted so it's easy for me to say, but fuuuck that. If your book is too gay and woke for them, they can pick another one. Or woe to them if they read something that broadens their mind a little. A note about ego and self-importance: they're asking a writer to change their own work, which is a project involving considerable emotional investment, for their own shallow motivations. You are not the one with the ego problem. It would be different if it were an editor saying "hey this is likely to sell better with X changes" but that's not what I see here. Let him look like a fool for refusing a book unilaterally rather than at least putting it to a vote. Signed, a bi guy who would love to see more LGBT representation.
And even if an editor says that, I would walk away before removing any form of diversity. Tell me I need to be more inclusive? Fair enough. Tell me to discriminate more? Our visions do not match. Authors can argue back. ‘Stet’ is a thing. You might have your contract cancelled, but if it was good enough to be picked up by one bonafide publisher, it’s good enough to be picked up by another.
It's definitely not an ego problem. The book is published. What is he even asking for? A separate published book that doesn't have that stuff in it? Is he just asking to censor how you talk about it at the event? Also a race of aliens that reproduce differently than humans is hardly even LGBTQ representation. It's just Sci Fi. I've never understood when literal ALIENS not conforming to human genders are treated like that. It's like what, you're fine with the laying eggs and scaley skin, but you can't handle gender working a little differently? Come on
> It's like what, you're fine with the laying eggs and scaley skin, but you can't handle gender working a little differently? It must be that to some people, sci-fi just means "20th century conservative values in space" and avoiding challenging culture whatsoever. -Adding an edit here because I thought of something relevant. Robert Heinlein's *Space Cadet* was written in the first half of the 20th century, 1940s iirc. Yet he was able to imagine an alien society in which eating was seen as a private action for them, basically like relieving oneself to us. This got me thinking about how some of our norms are completely arbitrary, maybe to the point of ridiculous. Kind of like... insisting straight relationships are okay and gay ones are not. I'd hope a self-professed sci-fi fan will at least have heard of the author. Did they make no similar connections from ideas raised in other books? Or do they only ever re-read *Starship Troopers* as if it's not satire?
100% I saw the title and wondered if it was a publisher saying "we'd love to pay you for your work, but it's a bit too woke." This is *wayyyy* beyond that. They feel icky and are asking him to do a *lot* of editing for fucking *nothing.* Fuck them. All the way around.
Upvoted.
There’s constructive criticism… and then there’s Bill.
That sounds like an amazing bumper sticker.
I think you’ll make more money making this custom bumper sticker 😂 /j
They are not right. You can choose whatever you want to portray in your book and whatever you want to change to fit somewhere. You draw your lines that you won't cross and then other people do whatever they want within that limits. Also, usually changing queer stuff is a bad idea. Even if you "cis-straight-wash it", they won't like you and your ideas and your focus. Your book will read queer. Plus, what shitty sci-fi fans if they don't even want to try any kind of social speculation. So, don't feel bad. 50 people is not that many. Stand your ground, or even try to contact the group by yourself and present your book without your uncle. Either they like it or they don't. Or you could try to find some queer sci-fi groups, which will be more interested in your story for what it is.
[удалено]
I could see it causing backlash on social media *hard* if OP builds up a fanbase elsewhere, especially if its marketed around specifically these elements
I don't think going behind his back is a good idea. That would probably just create more friction and problems. My best bet is to just accept the lost opportunity and look for other ones.
Could find out more about the group. It could be that he is one of the only ones who are homophobic and sexist. If that's the case, approach the group and do it. It's not just about the book at this point. It's about the homophobia and sexism (wanting the woman character not wanting to marry because she isn't interested in it changed sounds a lot like the sexist ideals of "women should only get married, stay home, take care of the house, and have kids for the man while he goes out and makes money. She should be entirely dependent on him and listen to him.") If your work is good, it will stand on its own regardless of the characters' sexualities, or decisions of whether or not to marry, or the biology of a species that can choose their own gender. If it's not good, changing those details won't likely save it. Are you proud of it as it is now? If so, don't change a thing.
TLDR: Bill is a dick. What kind of fragile, entitled, self-serving prick expects you to write a custom edition of a work to better conform to his out-dated, toxic world view *and then* has the nerve to get pissy and try to guilt you when you say no thanks? For literally dozens of readers. Fuck. No. If it was your *publisher* asking, you'd have to strongly consider it, because being commercial matters and your publisher is there to sell your work and make you famous. But for fucking Bill and a cluster of his chuckle fuck friends? Fuck. No. Bill is a dick.
I don’t even think a publisher, unless Christian ran, would ask for them to rewrite or remove certain parts of the book. Bill is just a dick and small minded.
A publisher might well ask for a rewrite, but not for these reasons
Hell, do we even know Bill is acurately representing the group? Maybe he's the only one that would have been bothered. YOu're 100% in the right here
My vote is Bill is the homophobe and would be embarrassed to share a “gay” book.
As a child of the 80s and 90s, your LGBT elements sound like the kind of things most fans of the genre should be used to. Did he have a problem with Riker hooking up with Soren 35 years ago or whatever?
I love the hell out of Star Trek. Some of my favorite episodes are the ones that deal with complex morality or social issues.
And I'm not surprised. Took a look at your book and it looks pretty sweet. Good luck with it
Right?? Bill needs to find a better excuse for being a jerkwad. "I'm too old to be a decent and respectful person" doesn't fly. Signed, an ~over 40~ (gasp)
Bill is being ridiculous. You’ve published the book, which means the project is closed (even as your marketing efforts continue). You had your reasons for writing the characters and plot the way you did, and regardless of reader reactions, that’s that, and what’s done is done. Further, LGBTQ+ stories are important, and you should not feel as though you have to tone those down to reach certain audiences. Not every book is for every reader; your uncle didn’t have to choose your book, but he did, and that’s on him. If he doesn’t like LGBTQ+ stories, then he has some soul searching to do (although your description makes me think that he probably won’t…).
I didn't even think it would be classified as a LGBTQ+ story. The protagonists are straight and get into a relationship together, so I certainly wouldn't advertise it as such.
Well, i think we're all in agreement that this means you must now write some LGBTQ smut. Bill is an idiot.
As hilarious as that would be... I don't think I could write good smut, much less smut for gender pairings/identities I'm not part of myself.
Honestly, that makes his objections even sillier. Starship pilots can be lesbian, just like airline pilots can be in our world; princesses can be uninterested in marriage, which I think is covered in at least two Disney movies (bad example, but it’s what I’ve got at the moment); animal gender doesn’t have to be binary (just look at the ocean). He’s out of line.
Go back through and edit the whole book. MAKE THEM GAYER
I am so done with editing my first book. Sequel has a wholesome M/M couple, so I'll settle for that.
It's presumptuous of Bill to expect you to change an already complete story for *his event*, its distasteful, and blatantly disrespectful to you as an author. His group could use it as an opportunity to introduce an LGBT story if he feels it might be heavy on the representation.. it could be a positive thing, instead, *he asks you to change the story*.. If he wants to dictate decisions, write your own story, pal.
This is not a little thing. If I went and scrub off every penis from Michelangelo's work I would be destroying a peice of art. Period. It is beyond offensive that someone demand you change your book and then say "its no big deal". It is a big deal. Being lesbian/asexual/genderfluid affects who the characters are and the choices they make. Your decisions to represent these groups is a part of your art that DEEPENS what happens. Tell Bill that if he doesn't like it, he can write his own book. And if he does write his own book, suggest he change all the characters to fit YOUR personal taste. P.s. 50 plus year olds are not your demographic. In the long run, their publicity is nothing and possibly harmful if they choose to give bad reviews over LGBT aspects.
My original idea was to write a book that almost everyone could enjoy. But if I had to choose, I'd rather it be read by people that are open-minded.
This is a case of you might win the battle (get the opportunity) but lose the war (your writing career). The audience you want to reach isn't likely to forgive you doing this even once, regardless of context, and once it came out it would follow you forever. You made the right call to decline. Also fuck Bill. Guarantee he never would've been this bold with an author who wasn't family, and a generation younger than him to boot.
Well, I'm not giving up yet. I refuse to believe this is the best opportunity I will ever get. I think if I keep my eyes open and keep looking, something else will come up and I will have other chances to get my book out there.
Please know that "Bill" is *not* giving you an opportunity. He is trying to control your book/writing/beliefs by dangling something in front of you he thinks you want, which says more about his own feelings of self importance than anything else. And if you cave, he knows he's got you, he's won. That your choices in your book were only pandering, because you would have pandered to him. 50 people who maybe *some" of them pick up your eBook as a favor? Not worth compromising your story for. Not worth the regret a month down the line that you let someone else take over *your* story. Not to mention, there's no guarantee they all think like Bill. Probably a few in there that would be horrified to learn he required that of you, and even more so that you *did* it. And if not, are they really the kind of readers you want? Because they'll expect more of the same in future books, fyi. If your family says anything more just shrug, smile, and say "Don't know why he doesn't like my book, you'd have to ask him. Maybe he'll like the one I'm working on next better." Put that onus on *him* to explain.
Wish I could upvote this more than once
You will have plenty of chances. If you get real good at organizing and calling around, you can set yourself up pretty decently. Local book shops are sometimes eager to get in a new author.
Seconding this. I read a *lot* of lgbtqia/queer books and if I found out one of the authors released a censored version of their book I would be devastated and feel completely betrayed.
You’re absolutely right to stand your ground, you shouldn’t have to change or edit your book to appease a small group. Not to mention it is a big inconvenience because changing things could lead to a domino effect of haveing to change more and more that now no longer makes sense from the initial changes
I was asked to tone down the swearing in my second novel, which I did - a little - and to remove a single phrase which may have been considered problematic, which I also did. I would consider a change if it could be interpreted as problematic or hateful without that being a necessary part of the story. For example, a school bully using ablist, derogatory language is part of what makes her an antagonist. But it wouldn't be acceptable for me to have the protagonist using the same language, so I deleted a word that I'd inadvertently used that could also be seen as a slur. I wouldn't deliberately use language or descriptions that would more than likely generate offense, unless that was the intent so that the reader hates a character. I wouldn't change a text based on possible responses from readers. If I've made a character a certain way, if they've stayed that way through multiple drafts then there's a reason for that! I'm not going to erase a character's sexuality or gender identity or race or disability in case I potentially offend readers like your uncles book club - because for every one reader you potentially alienate, there's another reader who will feel seen and validated because a character in a book was just like them. The world is made up of diverse people, and so too are most fictional worlds. If readers don't like that - tough. Further more, I think it's a dangerous path to go down. If we as writers start changing our stories to appease certain readers, where do we stop? Is it when they find LGBTQ characters offensive? Do we remove all references to characters being different races? Do we start casting genders in their traditional roles, because that fits with the worldview of most of a particular book club? Will our next book be written with them in mind, self-editing our work to appease a certain section of society? Write the story you feel compelled to write, and as long as it's not massively problematic or terribly written, it will find an audience. There will be other book groups and other readers besides your uncle's book club, who frankly sound homo/transphobic. Would you want a slew of book reviews knowing that they were only happy to read your book because you made all the characters heterosexual? EDIT TO ADD: Just noticed the bit about creating a different version for Bill's group. No, no, no. How would you market that? STRAIGHT VERSION- now free of gayness? Choose your book - with or without asexual and queer characters. It would be massively detrimental to you as a writer because it shows you've bowed to pressure to erase certain identities. You'd be really stupid to listen to your family.
>As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right. I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that. This isn't a case of reacting badly to criticism, this is a case of setting healthy boundaries. It's not like he's saying he felt those particular characters were too one-dimensional, lacked development, or detract too much from the core plot of the story. He's asking you to put in extra work you never agreed to do, simply to cater it to the exact preferences of his social circle. He's also showing a profound disrespect to the craft. If your characters are more than token representations of LGBTQ culture and are fully developed characters, then each aspect of their identity contributes to their personal history and informs how they interact with the world. Changing those things aren't as simple as flipping a switch, it's more like unravelling the pattern in the middle of tapestry. You pull on one thread and half the thing comes comes apart because of how intertwined it all is. This would all be true if it was in one of the later drafts, but your book is already published. It's a little too late to be making significant changes to the story. You can incorporate their feedback for the next book, but it's unreasonable to be asking for you to gut the story and rewrite it once it's out in the world. As for your family saying you're "overreacting", they are gaslighting you. I encourage you to ignore that kind of manipulation and disrespect for your boundaries.
I initially wrote a longer response, but I realized it can be boiled down to one sentence: Bill can get fucked. I would have given him the double-birds and walked away backwards. You did the right thing by not giving in.
No, fuck that. What he did was not fair or constructive criticism, it was an attempt at censorship. He wasn't seeking to improve your work, he was just seeking to change it. There's a difference. You did the right think on principle.
Fuck Uncle Bill and fuck the members of your family who sided with him and good on you. Why are his social problems more important than your creativity? He's telling you in effect that you should compromise your hard work and artistic vision so it won't embarrass him in front of his friends. So he clearly hasn't accepted you as an artist, which means he has no reason whatsoever to be shopping you around to them as such. Furthermore, there's a very good chance he's taking it upon himself to be offended on behalf of people who might not be offended at all if allowed to see your original material and make up their own minds. So, yeah, you're not the asshole.
Is it "too gay" for the group, or for your uncle? There are definitely a lot of intolerant old people. But there are plenty of old people with tolerance coming out their ass. Your uncle may be passing off his problem as their problem.
I've considered this. However, if I go around him to find out that will probably cause more problems and I just want to leave the entire situation behind me. It sucks to lose out on an opportunity like that, but I just have to accept the loss and move on.
This is not something you should ever compromise on. You did the right thing, and stick to your guns. Your uncle needs to get over himself. If it bothers them so much about the LGBTQ stuff they can write fanfiction to change that.
Uncle Bill can go fuck himself.
There are times where executive meddling to hit a wider audience makes sense. This is not one of those times. Fuck that shit.
Honestly, do you *want* your readership to be Bill's homophobic reading group? If yes, make the edits and republish. But it doesn't sound like that's who you want your readership to be, so move on. You don't have to cater to everyone. In fact, you *can't* cater to everyone. Pick your readership and market to them, not market to all readers. And just tell your family that it's already published, so you can't make major changes. It's too late. That should solve the family front. And if you put it on KU, you can't distribute your own ebook versions anyway, so you can use that as an excuse if you need to.
Not to mention ive never really seen that done in the u.s. book market were theirs different versions of the book for different political/religious views. I would dare say making those edits would set an dangerous precedent for future writers
Don't do it, stand your ground. Screw Bill and his hateful demands. If this is what you want to write, you will find your audience. Don't ruin it for his audience. I've gotten crap for the smallest amount of hardly mentioned LGBTQ content and my response was simple: I won't change my story unless I want to, and certainly not to soothe your bigotry.
Something better will come along. This person seems to have been presenting themselves as something they are not (imo). It's okay not to accept the first "scrap" thrown your way - in fact, it's basically required if you want to get what you're actually worth in this world. When it comes to your creative works, don't settle. Family members can make it hard, but the truth is - they are usually the first and biggest obstacle on the road to success. It's usually because they are accustomed to seeing you in a certain light - and this endeavor, this success is a part of them that they don't know how to handle. Personally, I don't think you're overreacting - and truthfully, there's a much larger audience than your friends or family out there. If your work was that good, you won't have trouble finding someone else who feels the same exact way without those changes. So, imo - don't do it! Those who do usually regret it.
Thank you. I plan to keep looking and hope something better comes along.
NTA. Your family thinks it's no big deal to rewrite your book just to appease bigots??? WTF. I would have told Bill and everyone who took his side to fuck off right to their faces is what I would have done. Of course, I also told a diner full of elderly people that they were on the wrong side of history and the world would be a better place when they were dead when they started loudly bitching when the Oberfell decision was announced on the news, so I'm probably less confrontation-averse than the average person lol.
These people love sci-fi/fantasy and he wants you to remove LGBT content? Have they never read The Left Hand of Darkness? This Is How You Lose The Time War? Anything by Iain M. Banks?
Since that’s a big part of my book, I’d refuse as well.
Seriously. Screw them.
No, your book is YOUR book. You poured your blood, sweat, and tears into it. You don't write a second version for bigots. Sorry if I'm calling out your family here, but anyone who wants you to change an already finished work for that... Well I calls it like I sees it.
My rule is "No rewrites unless there's money involved, and then only maybe." No selling out for free.
Fuck those guys, fuck your family for seeing it that way. Bill is the self important one, he wants something from you, he set this whole thing up and now he's demanding you cater to him. It's your damn book and if he doesn't like it he can damn well find another one. Also it's just blatantly homophobic and idk why the rest of this thread is being ambivalent about that.
I love how it’s a group who loves sci-fi but would potentially balk at LGBTQ+ characters. just feels ironic to me.
He didn't provide you with any valid criticism, so this isn't a "writer being too stubborn to make necessary edits" situation.
"Holy fuck what a bunch of entitled snowflakes." I'm apologize for speaking ill of your family, but I thought I should frankly tell you my honest reaction while reading. I think, approached a different way, with them just telling you things they honestly thought would improve the story (for example, the items you mentioned you were open to) are proper feedback. But I think I would have just ignored recommendations to change sexual orientation or other character aspects of your characters, because those are, in the end, integral elements of your story. Feedback needs to be feedback, not pressure. Gently tell your family so, while properly thanking them for their advice. That's as far as you should go for them.
> Members of my family have approached me and said that I am overreacting. That my own ego and self-importance for my writing were causing problems for Bill and that changing my book didn't need to be such a big deal. I tried to say that I was open to toning down the violence or the one intimate scene in the book, but they said that one change is no different than the other and I should be open to what Bill wants. Love how so often people seem to be expected to just cater to the unreasonable idiot instead of telling the unreasonable idiot off. More convenient I suppose. Even if you had no issue changing the book to take out all passages that might be read as "gay" - which would be at least questionable - this is still a shitton of work. If I was you, I would probably just tell your uncle that, yes, you can edit your book to his likings so it can be presented to the 50 people, but since you will have to put in a lot of work in a presumably very limited time span, he will have to pay you the equivalent of 50 purchases upfront. Then again, I dont have as strong ethics as others, so you might just decide that even if he somehow agreed to that condition, you dont want to sell out your work and cater to bigots.
This isn't criticism of your work, it's criticism of your political beliefs and your morality, as reflected in your work. You're not over-reacting, you're simply declining to abrogate your own moral standards to pander to bigots. Succeed or fail, but do it with integrity and you'll never have regrets. Kudos. Stay strong.
I commend you for standing by your work, especially against homophobia. Family thinks that because they are family, they have a way to control people, and I'm glad you didn't give in. If they don't like those aspects of your book, then they are not your target audience, and you will find others who appreciate your work! Personally, I go nuts over any LGBT+ representation, and am intrigued by the little I know of it!
My petty ass was like “ooh you could make a gay smut version for them” lmao
Nope, they’re in the wrong. Never compromise your values to people who don’t value your message.
If your uncle Bill is anything like my uncle Bill, and it sounds like he is, then he’s not really trying to give you an opportunity. He wants to make himself look good by showcasing his niece/nephew the writer to his friends, but then suddenly got embarrassed at what people may think of that gay shit. You and he made an agreement for you to meet his group. You are staying faithful to your end of the bargain. I’m not sure how you’re communicating about this, but you should just say that you are happy to be doing the event and refuse discussion of any editorial fuckery.
Yo I am so proud! Would have been so easy to just censor it but nah you know what's right. Im a copywriter and have turned down paying work because they wanted my content on a right wing, anti lgbtqi+, or conspiracy site. It's your name. If you arent happy with what is produced, dont let any9ne tell you how to represent yourself and your beliefes. This is awesome, love you!
This isnt a "big opportunity". This is your uncle having an opinion. Ignore him and move on with your life.
Don’t cater to Nazis! Homophobes deserve nothing but suffering, I would cut this bruh out of my life in an instant.
He seriously asked you for a bigot edit lool that's hilarious. The amount of unpaid labor he asks you to do is ridiculous, I hope he looks like a fool to all of his friends.
I would honestly tell him to grow up , seriously what the hell is he thinking. This isn't a critique its censoring like you said in the title
He offered to expose you to this group, informed the group, and made plans. Only then did he demand content changes. Simply from that perspective, he's 100% in the wrong. It's not like you agreed to make changes and then backed out... he's the one breaking the deal! Further, Uncle Bill is doing that China thing -- censor your work or you won't be allowed access this audience. Your book is done. It's unreasonable to ask you to rework it for an audience that apparently can't handle the most gentle exposure of LGBTQ stuff. On top of that, he's asking you to essentially lie about your book's content. This group would be exposed to and recommending a book that is *different* from the censored one they real. Unless you're going to have two distinct versions, one emblazoned with "GAY-FREE EDITION" on the cover and one with "WARNING: LESBIAN" to help a bunch of grown-up babies pick up the copy they won't make them feel icky about the gays. **You are completely, 100% in the right. You are the author. This is your book. It's absurd to ask you to put in extra work to make different versions of it. They either like it for what it is, or they don't.**
You’re not egotistical nor self important in any way for refusing to pander to homophobes. Don’t betray your convictions. That would cause far more pain in the long run than losing out on a bigger audience. The best art is the art that is genuine. I’d love to read your book as it is.
Your Uncle Bill is an asshole. He and his book group have the right to not read your book if it's not the kind of book they'd like, and you have the right to write whatever kind of book you want. >Members of my family have approached me and said that I am overreacting. Your family is homophobic, I am sorry to say. >I worry that they might be right. They're not.
Didn't you just post this a few days ago?
I posted this on r/AmItheAsshole, but it got taken down due to the Mods not wanting it to be a discussion on "Social Issues" I disagreed, but I respected their decision. Thought it would be a better discussion here for writers about censorship and the lengths we go to publicize our work.
That's a terrible sub and mod team Almost as terrible as Bill's Homophobic Book Club
I wasn't happy about it. However, I use reddit a lot so I need to play nice with mods and not cause problems.
In my experience r/AITA is better
TIL those are different places.
There's actually a ton of "knock offs" but I can't remember them all. There's also a parody r/amitheangel
Well to answer the question you asked there, you're not the asshole. Bill is the asshole, and anyone saying otherwise at the very least doesn't understand the work that goes into writing a novel.
So wait, you already published it, it’s done. And he’s asking you to essentially rewrite it? I have no idea how long this book is but that sounds like so much work to me. There’s an audience out there for what you created. Bill ain’t it. If he chooses to take that personally that’s on him. Wishing you much luck friend. Your book sounds super cool to me.
403 pages, 115k words, and 3 years of my life. My knee-jerk reaction was to tell him to go do something unpleasant to himself.
And this is the correct reaction. Or at the very least simply tell him that it seems like he has his own story that he wants to tell and that perhaps it would be better if he wrote it himself if its so important to him.
guys this is probably not a real thing that actually happened in real life [OP's reddit account has been shamelessly promoting their book for a while now](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/15dqbcx/emailed_my_friend_an_early_draft_of_my_book_didnt/)
Nah, keep your story the way you want it to be. Plus now if you contact the news you get 1000x the publicity.
I don't want my book to get attention for causing my family problems. I have considered sending it off to Libraries in the bible belt to see if it gets banned. That's the kind of publicity I can get behind.
Bill sounds like a bigoted nerd. Do what you want but don't change your story. These things exist as aspects of real life. If they want to wear blinders and shun other human beings who aren't harming them or others, he can go fuck off.
Bill is in the wrong for springing a condition on you at the last minute. You are under no obligation to change your book to meet the sensibilities of a single, small book club. If you had agreed to changing the book and then changed your mind, that would be one thing, but if you agreed to the event and then later Bill said you needed the change the book, that's on Bill. He changed the terms, not you. As for your family saying you're willing to do some changes you should be willing to do any changes, that's obviously absurd if you just think about it a little. You were open to hearing feedback, but ultimate you disagree with the feedback and are going to keep your book in the version you think is better. Your family is basically saying that because you're open to changing the book if you agree it would make the book better, you should be willing to change the book when you think it would make it worse. They're not the same. You're also certainly not being egotistical for keeping your book the way you want it, it's your book. It's your family demanding you change it for their pleasure that are being egotistical. If they want the book a certain way and only a certain way, they can go write their own.
I would've also backed out, but that may mostly be because of why I write. It's not money, fame, I don't even particularly expect people to read it. I just like the characters and worlds I've crafted and I want them to exist. But, from a more objective view, there are a few types of critism, and this the type you shouldn't listen to. I'm not sure what it's called, but it's not an actual problem with the writing, they just don't like it.
Your uncle is an idiot. This is totally on him on many levels. I would not compromise my work to placate a bigot.
As a queer person who writes for queer people, I'd laugh in his face. I write "normal" YA fantasy but most of my characters are lgbtq. It's not even a romance exactly (tho it features two grown men married who foster teens) so I'm sure my book will be very controversial when I'm finally finished with it. Good. I'm looking forward to it.
I'm a trans woman, a lesbian, and a feminist. That *will* come across in most of what I write. I tend to write stories centered on queer women. If someone has a problem with that, they are more than welcome to tell me. But I'm not exactly inclined to listen to them either. Sure, my screenplay about man-eating lesbian werewolves (I wrote it for a screenwriting class FWIW) isn't to everyone's taste. But it's my story, and if I say, made the human love interest/main character a guy, it wouldn't feel authentic. My first book featured a poly lesbian relationship between two princesses(one of whom, the protagonist, was transgender and intersex) and a prostitute; I could have compromised, say, having the one princess break it off and go marry a guy. But at the end of the day, it felt wrong not having the three together. It didn't get published due to being milquetoast fantasy but I'm half considering reusing the world and those characters, but already established as married queens with some more obviously sci-fi elements than i had previously as opposed to the more generic 'fight for the throne' crap I'd written before.
Bill and your family are wrong, wrong, wrong. Never censor your own work for any reason. Not to promote it. Not to please an audience. Not to please the government. Bill and his book group can either accept the book as it is written or, like you said, find another author/book.
I mean if the plot of the story isn’t about the characters being lgbt An they just so happen to have that as a part of them? I feel like that’s fleshes out the characters and world. Even if it was a sc-fi story about the aspect of being lgbt then why agree to it if you had an issue with it? Plus like others said he’s not paying you for these changes sooooo I’d stick with what you wrote because there is definitely a market of people who wouldn’t care about such minuscule things in the story. I don’t think you’re overreacting I just think your uncle sounds a little self entitled and if he has an issue with LGBT then oh well. It’s 2023 🤷🏾♂️💀
Send a copy to someone from his book club unedited and see if they're also bigoted.
Proud of you OP. Sometimes when our values align with the universe, and we standby a truth that sometimes we only know, every single person who uses us will come out of the woodwork barking and thrashing.
Why should you have to go out of your way to change **your** book because old uncle Bill doesn't like certain parts of it? That's incredibly selfish of them.
50 people isn't that big of an opportunity to warrant another round of edits lol. he's essentially trying to commission a custom novel and work for free so you could either choose to tell him no or to charge an hourly rate. I recommend $100 an hour with a minimum of 10 depending on how extensive the changes are. don't work for free, and if you have to change your book significantly to get it in front of those people then it isn't your book that youd be promoting is it? don't tell him how to get out of the mess either as that would also be work he hasn't paid you for.
It'd be bad enough if they want to you not to *read* parts of your book. To demand a rewrite is absurd. Also, it sounds like they wouldn't like your book and they want another book so that's hardly a good opportunity. Do some research into promotion, you'll find your audience. Also, be a hustler. I take copies of my book when I go out to shows, bars, etc. I sell up to 5 a night sometimes. My topic is something that kind of sells itself because a lot of people are interested in it. However, I'd buy a book from anyone if they came up to me and said they wrote it.
> It's over 50 people with a couple of online book bloggers with some decent following, so I thought it was a huge stroke of luck and a great opportunity. That (and family pressure) may be a lot of weight on his side of the ring, but personally - I'd distribute the original version and ask around through the members who read it and want to give feedback on it, *Especially* the book bloggers. Unless Bill is an incredibly influential person in the field, he's a lightweight, and there is some serious demand for LGBTQA+ characters in fiction when presented/portrayed accurately. Some of the rest of the book group may agree with you, others may not, and you're taking a bit of a risk here. Bill cannot stop you from reaching out to the group itself (or its members) no matter what position he holds in it, once he's given that invitation. And you don't have to tell him whether the version you're distributing to the members of the book club is the original or a version edited to his standards. > I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that. Then fuckin' don't! It's there on the table (metaphorically - sending it to them digitally will probably be better), they can read it or not as they wish, and offer suggestions about what they think should be changed. Whether you bother taking those suggestions is 110% up to you. They may not be your target audience, but you can probably find one if the story itself is halfway decent - an audience that will absolutely *rejoice* at LGBTQA+ characters being included. (Source ~~my ass~~, I've known a lot of people who were openly gay or bisexual, or were kinda happy to see that idea represented, and some who weren't. You're spinning a roulette wheel here, and if you win this time, betting against Bill, that's gonna be awesome. If you go to another casino and play roulette there ...maybe somebody's gonna just love it and you'll win big. You get my drift.) > Have you ran into a similar situation? As an author or reader, what would you have done? I fucking talked a board on 4chan into accepting a narrative that had the Three Faces Of Eve, and how awful that interpretation of femininity is, as a plot point. Oh, and several LGBTQA+ characters. And I got away with it and people kept reading. Don't let your uncle dictate what you can and can't write.
So Bill is fine with aliens, spaceships, and fantasy elements but draws the line at gay characters and a woman who's not interested in romance? He is prejudiced. Don't change your book for him.
I tried to write a well thought out response like some of the other commentators that defend you, but I kept erasing it. My argument mainly comes down to this: fuck em, as requesting to tone down LGBTQ themes when they are not central to the plot isn't valid criticism, but rather something they don't like and thus would like to be removed; this is under the assumption that LGBTQ themes AREN'T central to the plot, but rather just their identity (like how Levi from AoT is good at killing Titans, but hates messy shit. It's a quirk, not what defines his entire character, his arc, or the plot; it's about killing Titans, not whether Levi can get over his germaphobia to kill Titans.) and if LGBTQ themes are central to the plot, then it MAY be a valid criticism, or a matter of taste. But seeing as it is a fucking SCIENCE FICTION book with fantasy elements, and that all his criticisms are toning down or removing LGBTQ characters, I'm under the assumption that his issue is SOLELY with the LGBTQ themes. Tl;Dr: if it's central to the plot, the request to tone down the LGBTQ themes is a matter of taste, and if it's not, then he's just an asshole who doesn't like LGBTQ themes. Also, regarding people saying your ego has gotten the better of you? Fuck em.
Out of interest, what does this group think of the Banks' Culture series? Because people there can change their gender as adults, and it is sort of seen as a bit weird if you don't spend some time as the opposite gender (plus if born male then also have a child as a woman). And it's about as popular a Sci fi series as you get. The Player of Games goes even further into this, and is often seen as the best place to start. Honestly what you have written seems very tame. I'm not even looking to be published, just in here because of the great stories, so I can't say what I would do in your place. But 50 people and a couple of bloggers doesn't seem much to compromise your art for. A $1m book deal I could understand, but this?
So your uncle read it and liked it and then later on he (or his group will) disapprove of a LGBTQ+ inclusive sci-fi novel? I have to assume if your book was too LGBTQ+ preachy then it would have been an issue with him long before he suggested presenting it to his book club. He wouldn't have suggested it for his group or if it was a "him" issue he wouldn't have finished the book all together. For me personally, you don't fuck with the artists in your family. You encourage them and suggest they look for constructive criticism a bit further from home. For my personal boundaries, your uncle is far overstepping the line and your family has the wrong back. They should be encouraging you to be... You. And not to change for anyone.
So he "liked" the book so much he wanted you to basically rewrite the whole thing so it would appeal to his macho friends? You honestly made me laugh xD Your "uncle" wanted to brag about having an author in the family but didn't like to aknowledge the fact that his bigotry doesn't align with what you do. And he had the balls to actually ask you to work for free to suit his preferences. Tell him ghost writers charge for their work, as do freelance authors hired to write an especific story for third parties. Then check up the average price per word where you live and give him an estimate depending of the length.
"One change is no different than the other" These people think sex and violence are equivalent to queer people merely *existing*, apparently? That's bigotry, plain and simple. Of course you aren't wrong. Don't sell out on basic human decency, you shouldn't be expected to.
These people aren't your audience if they don't like the story you're telling. Promoting to them does nothing because they are not your audience. Changing things for them doesn't help you in selling the writer you are. "Oh I'm so sorry the book wasn't to your taste, Billy. I'm going to spend my time marketing to my audience instead of changing my game. Best of luck finding a book that does work for you." Then do that. This isn't about quality, it's about voice. Find your people.
No no no no no no, fuck that noise. Sorry to break it to you but your uncle and his friends are homophobic. And I dont throw that term around lightly, but completely erasing any lgbt themes is just that. And it's a terrible and horrific thing to ask. Dont you dare feel bad about anything. Please stand your ground firmly. This is YOUR book, your story, your characters, YOU put all the work into it. Erasing lgbt themes IS NOT CRITICISM. It's blatant homophobia. I'm outraged on your behalf. And srsly fuck your family members for being pushy on this, they should support YOU. Not the homophobic uncle.
No, you stick to it! This is so important as representation, we need more casually queer characters! Promote it in the LGBT+ community instead and find more of your people. Get a market stall at Pride days etc. We will support you instead!
"it's my thing, if you like it then you can and show it off to other people, if you like it besides one thing that you want me to change for your sake because I'd do that for some reason..." You see the idiocy in what he wants
I would have said that I'm not changing what I wrote. And then ask him why he wanted that. He may have been uncomfortable about the matter due to someone coming to the meeting. Because he said he liked it.
You should also post this in AITA. Anyhow… IMO you should keep your book as-is, and maybe tell Bill that unfortunately, the elements in the book that are “too gay” for him are important to keep in the book and are central to the storyline. Then telling him “but!!! I do have a much less gay book coming out soon that I know your group would love. How about that?” (Up to you if you ever want to do that) Then if that’s not good enough, you can offer to provide a few “not too gay” chapters of your “too gay” book. Btw Bill’s request sounds insane in this day and age. You’d think you were Chuck Tingle by how he’s reacting. I guess you could also ask Bill to just present your book as-is to the group. Or ask him who the homophobe is in the group so you know who not to talk to.
Bill is the worst kind of idiot. An egotistical idiot. He told the group you’d be presenting your book without confirming it with you first, then said you had to change the *already published* book to fit his preferences in order to do the event, then got mad when you didn’t want to do the event. Stick to your guns on this. Your book doesn’t need a homophobe-friendly edition.
Don't give people like this any of your time or energy. Keep writing.
There is a huge difference between constructive criticism and censorship. He's asking you to change something because it offends him, not because changing it would improve the story. He's not trying to make your novel better, he's trying to make it less queer. If he doesn't want to present it as is, that's his problem. He is not your editor.
My response would have been to tell Uncle Bill to take his homophobic book group and cram it up his arse.
Bill is an asshole. Fuck his group. You did the right thing.
Some of the most famous pieces of Science fiction have characters that change sex: Left hand of Darkness and The Culture series spring to mind. Tell your uncle to take it or leave it.
It is a big change and he should have talked those over with you before. The other thing is: Every book has its audience. Your audience, naturally, doesn't seem to be people who do not like lgbtq+ themes. There are enough books out there for them. Would you even feel alright about having two versions of the book, where one is "Oh and this one is for everyone who do not want an asexual princess"? / "And this is the version we can put up in texan schools."
Never censor your work. Stand on principle.
A thought: your uncle "Bill" may simply have the goal of making you remove, from your book, anything he doesn't like. And he's using the prospect of his book club as a smoke screen, including more trying to guilt you into changing your book because _he_ would be embarrassed. You don't need that kind of person in your life, really. You definitely do not need to protect them from embarrassing themselves due to their own homophobia.
>As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right. I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that. You did the right thing, and you are not reacting badly to criticism, you are exercising your right to write what YOU want to write. Changing the book for bigotry purposes IS a big deal. Don't do it, and promote your book somewhere else.
You did the right thing. It was not criticism, it was censorship. And even if it wasn't discrominatory and bigot, and if it was criticism, it's still pretty weird to ask (with what compentency, then?) to edit an ALREADY PUBLISHED book. Editors can do that (before); readers can suggest it (before), but not ask or tell you to.
This is not a big opportunity and you are right to stand by your values. Anyway, you don’t want to be associated with bigotry. Asking to remove characters due to them being lgbtq+ is a big thing to ask.
Never change for the haters
I would do the exact same thing that you did. I'm not gonna get rid of LGBTQ in my book(s) just to please someone.
They are not right, you did the right thing.
Sounds like Bill made his own problems, not you. If he started planning out events just assuming you were going to change the book for him, well that's a massive presumption on his part. > As offended as I am at the prospect, I worry that they might be right. I know authors have a bad reputation for reacting badly to criticism or believing their work is "perfect" and I try hard not to fall into that. That is absolutely not what is happening here. He's asking for you to make political changes to the book, not quality changes. The fact that people are getting on your case about it says a lot more about them than it does you.
>Turns out his suggestions all involve removing LGBTQ elements from my book. I will stop here. It is your book. Your story. In a sense, it is your child. And just like with a real child, everyone is going to give you wanted and unwanted advice how to do their upbringing. But it is your child, not theirs. The ultimate decision which part of the advice to implement, if any, should be yours and yours alone. >I didn't think there was much to begin with, but evidently having a lesbian starship pilot, a princess who isn't interested in romance/marriage, **and a race of reptilian warriors who could choose their own gender at adolescence** was too "gay" for his group. These reptilian warriors sound supercool. I’m definitely interested!
Man I want to read your book from the description, but I guess if it's self published and only local it might be hard to get it here :( Don't censor your work, they just need to get with the times
a book group is not a "big event". an editor reaching out and paying you to cater your work so it is more in line with the publishing house would be a big event. do not yield. uncle bill can fuck right off.
If they say its not such a big deal to revise it then tell them it shouldnt be such a big deal to leave it be either.
Oh no, fuck that! I feel like anyone who asks you to censor something like that definitely doesn't have your vision at heart. Good on you!
I’d ask your family if they’re idiots? Call that crap out when you hear it. Ask them to explain they’re reasoning. They won’t have anything that requires any thought. I see this type of thing a lot in various situations. They don’t care about the issue. They care about the personal aggravation it causes them. They don’t want to hear Bills whining, so they think you’re easier to deal with. They just don’t want to hear it. It’s not that they care about the book or him. So ask them exactly what is reasonable about his request to change even one word in your book? Something he had nothing to do with. He just randomly decided he wanted changed. He’s not an editor. He doesn’t work for a publishing house. Maybe you love/like him as family, but as far as books go, he’s a nobody that can put it in front of a couple of people. Why would you change anything for him? That’s like telling one of your relatives that you don’t care for the color of there car. If they spend $12,000 and get it painted a color you like, you’ll allow them to come visit their double wide with the over grown yard and the truck up on cinderblocks. I think you should find the groups page and forward a copy of the book to them, or some promotional material. Tell them you’re really sorry the event didn’t happen. You were looking forward to it when your uncle told you they cancelled it. He didn’t say why, but you hope you can come some other time when they do have one. Just throw him under the bus.
Screw them, not even just for being a bunch of bigots. Screw them for just assuming you would edit down your book specifically for them. Thats so entitled. They clearly have no clue how much effort goes into editing and reworking a book.
This... logistically makes no sense? Your book is already published. I guess you could make a No Gays Edition... but you'd have to buy a new ISBN. You'd have to market it differently. It's just a Whole Thing. Not every book is designed for every audience. Nobody is asking GRRM to make a book without death and sex so they can read it to their 8 year old at bedtime. Nobody is demanding that Rick Riordan to add spice to his *Percy Jackson* books so they fit with girls' Steamy Book Clubs. Your book is your book. Does he have any idea how publishing work lmao.
Absolutely do not make a change for those bigots. They either like the book or they don’t.
This is ridiculous, you'd be fundamentally changing the book. He can find a different book or write his own if yours doesn't appeal to him.
I would of laughed so hard in his face. Yeah let me change my fucking book for your closed minded ass group. The amount of disrespect to even ask that of you is hilarious levels of bullshit.
This publisher needs to read some Becky Chambers books. She's a Hugo Award winner and she's got a race that naturally changes its gender on a daily/weekly basis. Hell, Ursula Le Guin touched on that even before her. Sounds like you need a new publisher. On the bright side, this one at least helped you better prep your book for whomever you find to be your next publisher. All that editing and typo-fixing wasn't a waste I'm sure.
Apart from his ask being unreasonable and bigoted, you aren’t the one backing out of the deal you two made - he is. The deal you agreed to didn’t contain his „changes“. It is so toxic of him to paint you as a flake when he tried to pressure you into forsaking your principles by making the deal beforehand, having people look forward to the event and mobilizing family to pressure you even more. What an asshole.
I wouldn't censor it. And I'd take a list of the homophobic family members. My grandparents will beg me to sit down and read some of what I'm currently working on. Even the queer aspects. Don't listen to the homophobes, they have enough representation.
I would have doubled down, made a second version of the manuscript which was as flamingly gay as possible, and hid some gay porn in the folds of the pages. Then I would thank them all for their advice, hand them each a copy, and let them know that their advice was very helpful, and that I can't wait to hear what they think. Then I'd sign them each up for every free pro-queer newsletter that I can think of. I was about to say "then I'd never show up again," But knowing myself, I'd absolutely be there next week to see their reactions.