"How many times have you heard fantasy and sci-fi are not actual writing?"
Maybe I'm an ignorant 32 year old but literally never. Is this a thing?? Am I fucked as a Canadian reading fantasy and Sci-fi in my cabin?
I like that even though Reddit is full of liberals who almost certainly agree with your Andrew Tate take (as a Conservative Christian I consider his teachings to be immoral) at least a few still down-voted you for the irrelevance and politic-baiting.
I have mixed feelings about this site. 😅
And that's why I'm a fan of sci-fi fantasy writing, to keep it on topic.
That's pretty crazy. When I was in high school back in the '90s I took Creative Writing as an elective my senior year. When the first story assignment came around I asked the teacher if it was okay if I did science fiction (as that's what I was heavily into reading at the time), and he literally said, "Yeah, that's fine. Sci fi, drama, comedy, whatever you want. A story's a story." He was one of the coolest teachers I ever had, and that class was so much fun.
1. Lack of plot
2. Pretentiousness
3. Sneering at people who like to enjoy what they read
4. Bad prose is preferable, but not necessary
If you wonder why I wrote this - it's not really a serious answer, but I'm a professional translator and as such I've been hired to work on literary works and arthouse movies. Sadly, the authors of a lot of these works just hide their incompetence behind being "art".
It's hard to pin down any genre's conventions neatly, but some of the things you're likely to find in literary fiction:
- A focus on identity and personal conflict
- Mundane/'realistic' settings and events
- Heavy use of symbolism
- Open or inconclusive endings
Less charitably, author self-inserts having affairs with much younger women, transgressive sex scenes used to signal seriousness, and copious child abuse as a plot driver.
Sounds like you're describing characteristics of a non-genre book. I only wanted to cynically point out how absurd is the statement ''its just another genre''. No, there is difference between genre and non-genre, exactly as the terms suggest.
If a group of 'non-genre' books have common characteristics, that *makes them a genre*. That's inherent in the definition of '[genre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre)'.
Drawing a stark distinction between 'literary' fiction and 'genre' fiction is evidence of not being sufficiently familiar with either.
I'll add one, too:
- While oftentimes well-written, literary fiction tends to allow itself a lot of time to prattle. Again, well-written prattle, but unless you're reading these stories _for the writing itself,_ they can oftentimes make you think, "I mean, it's beautifully written, but I'd like something to happen at some point."
Literally never, including in my creative writing classes.
But let me tell you academia is a gatekeeping institution. You will find plenty of different opinions on this. Your literary journal is likely to avoid sci fi and fantasy because those are difficult to make short. Not impossible just difficult.
Can you even clearly distinguish between literary fiction and fantasy/sci-fi?
For example look at The Perfume by Süskind. Clearly the protagonist Grenouille has a superhuman, fantasy-like ability. Also things like the special smell of specific young women or him being eaten alive at the end are things one would rather expect in a fantasy novel. Yet it is typically classified as a Bildungsroman or Picaresque novel or even as post modern fiction.
Edit: Or Never let me go by Ishiguro. Is it sci-fi or literary fiction?
Also check _the Detective_ by Roderick Thorpe, a pretty solid private-investigator mystery story, but its literary-ness comes from its complex prose, deep understanding of human interaction, and the fact that about half of it is a depressing drama between a man and his cheating wife.
I've read it twice, and I'm no literary fiction reader, but I think it toes that line excellently.
Never.
Your professors should probably take it up with folks like JRR Tolkien, Isaac Asimov, Arthur C Clarke, Frank Herbert, Ursula K Le Guin, HG Wells, Jules Verne, Robert Heinlein, George RR Martin, Brandon Sanderson, Lewis Carrol, CS Lewis, Roald Dahl, Terry Pratchett, JK Rowling, Neil Gaiman, Ray Bradbury, Bram Stoker, Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Orson Scott Card, Madeleine L'Engle, Mary Shelley...
I think they want the course to focus on creative writing with fix set of factor , Fantasy and Scifi (Fantasy in scifi setting) have factor and law of the story that differ from story to story and it is hard for evaluate.
I took a bunch of creative writing classes on college, and never once did I have a professor blanket ban sci Fi and fantasy. However, they all did insist that all writing had to be "literary" in nature - ie, focused on the human condition and characters, not plot.
So people could (and did) write sci Fi, but they had to justify to the prof that it was character driven which is a lot harder to do in short fiction when you have to spend so much time with exposition and world building in sci Fi.
I study literature. A lot of my teachers loved fantasy. Fuck, Borges was basically a fantasy writer and the most respected short story writer in the last century.
What they didn't like was shitty writing. And because fantasy is extremely popular right now, there is a lot of shitty fantasy.
I very intentionally didn't take any writing classes from people like this. Gatekeeping happens about everything, sadly, but gatekeepers aren't right, they are sad pathetic failures who try to box people out of the group because they can't handle the competition. The best response is to just ignore them. If you have a class with someone like that, then don't write scifi or fantasy for them, since that's basically not doing the assignment, but definitely don't let them make you less confident or comfortable with what you write for yourself or other classes.
And if you're worried that their opinion is the norm or something in literary circles, it isn't. Hell, I took a literature of science fiction course in college. Yes, there are a lot of gatekeepers out there,but they aren't even a majority, let alone everyone
I don't think I've ever heard those words in that exact way actually said to me, but I've definitely felt the sentiment. It's just a gut feeling I've gotten when I've heard people talk about the things I've written.
A lot of my friends and family know I write. I've shared my stories with them, and some read them just to be nice and supportive while there are a few that show a genuine interest and give feedback. I know fantasy and sci-fi is not something they'd willingly choose to read if it wasn't the genre I wrote in. The majority of people I talk about writing and books with seem to be more interested in mysteries and thrillers or stuff that leans more into romance.
"Oh, he writes fantasy stuff. Its not for everyone." Thats definitely a vibe I've gotten.
I try not to be discouraged at all, I know my stuff is very much on an amateur level and needs a ton of work but I work really hard to make very interesting plots that have an appeal that works outside of strictly fantasy. I usually incorporate mysteries snd intrigue and complex webs of characters that wouldn't be out of place in modern fiction but I think reading about Elves with a superiority complex just doesn't vibe with some people. No big deal.
The truly disheartening thing is a few months ago, on a bit of a lark, I wrote and published a short erotica story on a fairly well known website. I'm not really a big fan of erotica these days, but when I was a young and hormonal teenager I used to write that stuff a lot. I mean a LOT. Well on a whim I dusted off an old story I still had on a hard drive and rewrote and edited it to publish, mostly out of some bizarre curiosity. 30k reads in a day. Far more interest and traction than any stuff ive written that I'm actually passionate about. Woof.
As a former professor, I can attest to the utter pretentious nonsense many professors promote.
They are the gods of their little classes, and the industry attracts a lot of people with the 'my way is THE way' mindset.
And then they influence the next generation of industry 'experts' who will further push their perspectives.
But a narrowminded view is a narrowminded view.
I'm sorry you got stuck with someone like that in a position of authority over your grades.
From what you said in the post, I'm not seeing anyone that told you sci-fi and fantasy "are not writing." But maybe I'm just not understanding what you meant.
I've not been told that, myself. I've heard from other writers that people have told them that genre writing has less or no value compared to literary/contemporary writing, often by teachers of various levels. But I wasn't taught creative writing in school, or by anyone else. I taught myself, listened to some podcasts and watched videos of people talking about various aspects of writing. But the main things I learned were by doing things myself.
And the people I've shown my writing to haven't reacted like that. One was just a bit of a wassock about my writing, but he just had no idea how to give feedback.
Oh yeah this professor would also say that about fanfiction. What he didn’t realize was one of my friends stories was originally a fanfiction. They just changed the names and few distinguishing factors.
Being an student of literature in Latin America, pretty often. I wouldnt say that my teachers don't consider it actual writing (most of them) but all of them would agree on the fact that today, most of the mainstream works in this genres is awful. And i agree with them. If Tolkien and Herbert became the simbols of both genres is because their works told more than just a story. Todays works seems to be plagued with a lack of intention of telling something more than a cheap 3 point story.
In higher education, it is not considered literary. Hate it all you want, but nobody in higher education takes it seriously, especially in an MFA program.
Most of the people I talked about masters with when researching have point blank told me, writing is writing. They don’t care about the genre, as long as it’s done in a way that’s good. I normally ask if they’re okay with science fiction and fantasy writing, and I’m not the only one who asks as I saw four people ask in one zoom call. I think it really depends on the professor and the professor I spoke about has been known to hate the genre as a whole. They have told me I’m the only one they’ve seen pull off a sci-fi short story and do it well, so I guess they’re capable of compliments.
i love genre fiction, but academically you need to be writing literary fiction. it will make you a much better writer. listen to your professors, they know things
>it will make you a much better writer.
I agree with you in the general sense that writing tends to make you a better writer, but it doesn't actually help you build the specific skills to write sci-fi fantasy, the clearest one being worldbuilding. The basics of writing will extend beyond genre, but if you want to write certain things, I'd argue it's better to write that. I want to write books I'd want to read, and frankly I don't want to read literary fiction. There's nothing wrong with it or those who do, but just stamping a "one-size fits all" is dumb.
Also, that type of prose and storytelling is certainly not necessary or even wanted for some authors (see Brandon Sanderson, whose prose I dislike but popularity alone proves the point).
>listen to your professors, they know things
Yes, but they don't know everything. The professor may dislike sci-fi fantasy, for one, or just not know much about it. I would argue that a good professor would try to help you make your writing the best it can be, not help you make your writing something they would like better (and I say this from personal experience with a creative writing professor I liked a lot).
>i love genre fiction, but academically you need to be writing literary fiction.
*Or*, academia could be more open to genre fiction. I despise the "literary is superior" attitude. Genre fiction has just as much worth as literary fiction, *period*. Though this will certainly be controversial, as another person commented literary fiction is just another genre. It has it's own identifiers and tropes and those are neither worse nor better than genre. It's just treated as "superior."
I do question if this professor knows things for different reasons. They have a habit of accusing people of plagiarizing without actually providing proof and saying what’s plagiarized. It’s gotten to the point people bring their papers to head of the department to plagiarize check them.
im sorry you have to deal with that professor, in that case it’s probably a situation where you have to play their game. but they are an outlier, and the other professors are worth paying attention to.
I’m happy I no longer have to deal with them and the other creative writing professor, who honestly, isn’t that bad of a professor. They didn’t dock points for fantasy or sci-fi, and they’ve actually enjoyed what I write. All of the others are amazing which is the only redeeming quality of my colleges English program.
As long as you're using all of the writing techniques, I don't see why literary fiction would make one a better writer, unless the specific tropes of literary fiction are what you're trying to improve upon. A lot of those tropes don't work in the more focused, entertainment-focused genres.
Never. I don't think I've ever encountered that. I've encountered snobbery at speculative fiction, but I've never had someone just say it's not a real book the same way folk who only play Shoot Man 2: The Middle East Again say that the sims or whatever aren't real games.
Never. I guess I don't hang around the snobby part of the community enough. Most writers and readers do some form of fantasy or sci-fi.
I will say that I'm a big fan of thrillers, even though most have awful endings. I think thrillers are also considered schlock by the intelligentsia.
"How many times have you heard fantasy and sci-fi are not actual writing?" Maybe I'm an ignorant 32 year old but literally never. Is this a thing?? Am I fucked as a Canadian reading fantasy and Sci-fi in my cabin?
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What's SFF? Edit: Oh, yeah. I thought you were talking about a specific book. XD
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I like that even though Reddit is full of liberals who almost certainly agree with your Andrew Tate take (as a Conservative Christian I consider his teachings to be immoral) at least a few still down-voted you for the irrelevance and politic-baiting. I have mixed feelings about this site. 😅 And that's why I'm a fan of sci-fi fantasy writing, to keep it on topic.
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One professor doesnt make it common.
I have literally never heard this. I think your prof is just a bitter douchebag.
Oh they are 🤣. They are a douchebag
Sounds to me like he’s bitter that his own work is “undervalued.” Probably sad nobody thinks his writing is as brilliant as he feels it is lol.
That's pretty crazy. When I was in high school back in the '90s I took Creative Writing as an elective my senior year. When the first story assignment came around I asked the teacher if it was okay if I did science fiction (as that's what I was heavily into reading at the time), and he literally said, "Yeah, that's fine. Sci fi, drama, comedy, whatever you want. A story's a story." He was one of the coolest teachers I ever had, and that class was so much fun.
My view is that literary fiction is just another genre.
What are genre conventions of literary fiction?
1. Lack of plot 2. Pretentiousness 3. Sneering at people who like to enjoy what they read 4. Bad prose is preferable, but not necessary If you wonder why I wrote this - it's not really a serious answer, but I'm a professional translator and as such I've been hired to work on literary works and arthouse movies. Sadly, the authors of a lot of these works just hide their incompetence behind being "art".
It's hard to pin down any genre's conventions neatly, but some of the things you're likely to find in literary fiction: - A focus on identity and personal conflict - Mundane/'realistic' settings and events - Heavy use of symbolism - Open or inconclusive endings Less charitably, author self-inserts having affairs with much younger women, transgressive sex scenes used to signal seriousness, and copious child abuse as a plot driver.
Sounds like you're describing characteristics of a non-genre book. I only wanted to cynically point out how absurd is the statement ''its just another genre''. No, there is difference between genre and non-genre, exactly as the terms suggest.
If a group of 'non-genre' books have common characteristics, that *makes them a genre*. That's inherent in the definition of '[genre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre)'. Drawing a stark distinction between 'literary' fiction and 'genre' fiction is evidence of not being sufficiently familiar with either.
I'll add one, too: - While oftentimes well-written, literary fiction tends to allow itself a lot of time to prattle. Again, well-written prattle, but unless you're reading these stories _for the writing itself,_ they can oftentimes make you think, "I mean, it's beautifully written, but I'd like something to happen at some point."
Literally never, including in my creative writing classes. But let me tell you academia is a gatekeeping institution. You will find plenty of different opinions on this. Your literary journal is likely to avoid sci fi and fantasy because those are difficult to make short. Not impossible just difficult.
Can you even clearly distinguish between literary fiction and fantasy/sci-fi? For example look at The Perfume by Süskind. Clearly the protagonist Grenouille has a superhuman, fantasy-like ability. Also things like the special smell of specific young women or him being eaten alive at the end are things one would rather expect in a fantasy novel. Yet it is typically classified as a Bildungsroman or Picaresque novel or even as post modern fiction. Edit: Or Never let me go by Ishiguro. Is it sci-fi or literary fiction?
Also check _the Detective_ by Roderick Thorpe, a pretty solid private-investigator mystery story, but its literary-ness comes from its complex prose, deep understanding of human interaction, and the fact that about half of it is a depressing drama between a man and his cheating wife. I've read it twice, and I'm no literary fiction reader, but I think it toes that line excellently.
Never. Your professors should probably take it up with folks like JRR Tolkien, Isaac Asimov, Arthur C Clarke, Frank Herbert, Ursula K Le Guin, HG Wells, Jules Verne, Robert Heinlein, George RR Martin, Brandon Sanderson, Lewis Carrol, CS Lewis, Roald Dahl, Terry Pratchett, JK Rowling, Neil Gaiman, Ray Bradbury, Bram Stoker, Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Orson Scott Card, Madeleine L'Engle, Mary Shelley...
I think they want the course to focus on creative writing with fix set of factor , Fantasy and Scifi (Fantasy in scifi setting) have factor and law of the story that differ from story to story and it is hard for evaluate.
Tolkien?
I took a bunch of creative writing classes on college, and never once did I have a professor blanket ban sci Fi and fantasy. However, they all did insist that all writing had to be "literary" in nature - ie, focused on the human condition and characters, not plot. So people could (and did) write sci Fi, but they had to justify to the prof that it was character driven which is a lot harder to do in short fiction when you have to spend so much time with exposition and world building in sci Fi.
I study literature. A lot of my teachers loved fantasy. Fuck, Borges was basically a fantasy writer and the most respected short story writer in the last century. What they didn't like was shitty writing. And because fantasy is extremely popular right now, there is a lot of shitty fantasy.
I very intentionally didn't take any writing classes from people like this. Gatekeeping happens about everything, sadly, but gatekeepers aren't right, they are sad pathetic failures who try to box people out of the group because they can't handle the competition. The best response is to just ignore them. If you have a class with someone like that, then don't write scifi or fantasy for them, since that's basically not doing the assignment, but definitely don't let them make you less confident or comfortable with what you write for yourself or other classes. And if you're worried that their opinion is the norm or something in literary circles, it isn't. Hell, I took a literature of science fiction course in college. Yes, there are a lot of gatekeepers out there,but they aren't even a majority, let alone everyone
I think gatekeeping can be a good thing. The issue is when you try to stifle creativity when you should be, as a teacher, fostering it.
I don't think I've ever heard those words in that exact way actually said to me, but I've definitely felt the sentiment. It's just a gut feeling I've gotten when I've heard people talk about the things I've written. A lot of my friends and family know I write. I've shared my stories with them, and some read them just to be nice and supportive while there are a few that show a genuine interest and give feedback. I know fantasy and sci-fi is not something they'd willingly choose to read if it wasn't the genre I wrote in. The majority of people I talk about writing and books with seem to be more interested in mysteries and thrillers or stuff that leans more into romance. "Oh, he writes fantasy stuff. Its not for everyone." Thats definitely a vibe I've gotten. I try not to be discouraged at all, I know my stuff is very much on an amateur level and needs a ton of work but I work really hard to make very interesting plots that have an appeal that works outside of strictly fantasy. I usually incorporate mysteries snd intrigue and complex webs of characters that wouldn't be out of place in modern fiction but I think reading about Elves with a superiority complex just doesn't vibe with some people. No big deal. The truly disheartening thing is a few months ago, on a bit of a lark, I wrote and published a short erotica story on a fairly well known website. I'm not really a big fan of erotica these days, but when I was a young and hormonal teenager I used to write that stuff a lot. I mean a LOT. Well on a whim I dusted off an old story I still had on a hard drive and rewrote and edited it to publish, mostly out of some bizarre curiosity. 30k reads in a day. Far more interest and traction than any stuff ive written that I'm actually passionate about. Woof.
never been told that. my school has a whole course dedicated to fantasy and scifi. i think ur professor is just a jerk
As a former professor, I can attest to the utter pretentious nonsense many professors promote. They are the gods of their little classes, and the industry attracts a lot of people with the 'my way is THE way' mindset. And then they influence the next generation of industry 'experts' who will further push their perspectives. But a narrowminded view is a narrowminded view. I'm sorry you got stuck with someone like that in a position of authority over your grades.
Respect the prof's opinion, but don't let barriers hold you back. Keep writing what you love!
only on 4chan
From what you said in the post, I'm not seeing anyone that told you sci-fi and fantasy "are not writing." But maybe I'm just not understanding what you meant. I've not been told that, myself. I've heard from other writers that people have told them that genre writing has less or no value compared to literary/contemporary writing, often by teachers of various levels. But I wasn't taught creative writing in school, or by anyone else. I taught myself, listened to some podcasts and watched videos of people talking about various aspects of writing. But the main things I learned were by doing things myself. And the people I've shown my writing to haven't reacted like that. One was just a bit of a wassock about my writing, but he just had no idea how to give feedback.
Never? At most I've heard that fanfiction is not actual writing (I disagree big time), but fantasy and sci-fi? That's wild.
Oh yeah this professor would also say that about fanfiction. What he didn’t realize was one of my friends stories was originally a fanfiction. They just changed the names and few distinguishing factors.
Being an student of literature in Latin America, pretty often. I wouldnt say that my teachers don't consider it actual writing (most of them) but all of them would agree on the fact that today, most of the mainstream works in this genres is awful. And i agree with them. If Tolkien and Herbert became the simbols of both genres is because their works told more than just a story. Todays works seems to be plagued with a lack of intention of telling something more than a cheap 3 point story.
In higher education, it is not considered literary. Hate it all you want, but nobody in higher education takes it seriously, especially in an MFA program.
Most of the people I talked about masters with when researching have point blank told me, writing is writing. They don’t care about the genre, as long as it’s done in a way that’s good. I normally ask if they’re okay with science fiction and fantasy writing, and I’m not the only one who asks as I saw four people ask in one zoom call. I think it really depends on the professor and the professor I spoke about has been known to hate the genre as a whole. They have told me I’m the only one they’ve seen pull off a sci-fi short story and do it well, so I guess they’re capable of compliments.
I wouldn't bother trying to reason with this guy. He is one of the biggest snobs you will ever meet.
You've never met me
Your comments on this sub tell me all I need to know about your personality.
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i love genre fiction, but academically you need to be writing literary fiction. it will make you a much better writer. listen to your professors, they know things
>it will make you a much better writer. I agree with you in the general sense that writing tends to make you a better writer, but it doesn't actually help you build the specific skills to write sci-fi fantasy, the clearest one being worldbuilding. The basics of writing will extend beyond genre, but if you want to write certain things, I'd argue it's better to write that. I want to write books I'd want to read, and frankly I don't want to read literary fiction. There's nothing wrong with it or those who do, but just stamping a "one-size fits all" is dumb. Also, that type of prose and storytelling is certainly not necessary or even wanted for some authors (see Brandon Sanderson, whose prose I dislike but popularity alone proves the point). >listen to your professors, they know things Yes, but they don't know everything. The professor may dislike sci-fi fantasy, for one, or just not know much about it. I would argue that a good professor would try to help you make your writing the best it can be, not help you make your writing something they would like better (and I say this from personal experience with a creative writing professor I liked a lot). >i love genre fiction, but academically you need to be writing literary fiction. *Or*, academia could be more open to genre fiction. I despise the "literary is superior" attitude. Genre fiction has just as much worth as literary fiction, *period*. Though this will certainly be controversial, as another person commented literary fiction is just another genre. It has it's own identifiers and tropes and those are neither worse nor better than genre. It's just treated as "superior."
I do question if this professor knows things for different reasons. They have a habit of accusing people of plagiarizing without actually providing proof and saying what’s plagiarized. It’s gotten to the point people bring their papers to head of the department to plagiarize check them.
im sorry you have to deal with that professor, in that case it’s probably a situation where you have to play their game. but they are an outlier, and the other professors are worth paying attention to.
I’m happy I no longer have to deal with them and the other creative writing professor, who honestly, isn’t that bad of a professor. They didn’t dock points for fantasy or sci-fi, and they’ve actually enjoyed what I write. All of the others are amazing which is the only redeeming quality of my colleges English program.
As long as you're using all of the writing techniques, I don't see why literary fiction would make one a better writer, unless the specific tropes of literary fiction are what you're trying to improve upon. A lot of those tropes don't work in the more focused, entertainment-focused genres.
Never. Except for the complainers on this sub.
Never in my life.
Never.
Never
Never. I don't think I've ever encountered that. I've encountered snobbery at speculative fiction, but I've never had someone just say it's not a real book the same way folk who only play Shoot Man 2: The Middle East Again say that the sims or whatever aren't real games.
Never. I guess I don't hang around the snobby part of the community enough. Most writers and readers do some form of fantasy or sci-fi. I will say that I'm a big fan of thrillers, even though most have awful endings. I think thrillers are also considered schlock by the intelligentsia.
Not once, until I read this thread title.