Yes and no.
I'm a planner and do very poorly with pantsing. It's stressful being forced to make up new content outside my outline and generally leaves me blocked for months. I only do this when feedback is that a section is weak and needs more substance.
On the other hand, I've created really interesting characters this way. One was a childhood friend for my MC who keeps ending up being more relevant as the story goes on. Another is a cool pirate character who I'm going to have more fun with in the future, and another is possibly a one-off side character but one that I absolutely adore.
Sure but I think you’d be hard pressed to find any examples of final drafts that are exactly like their very first outline. Seems more like a universal experience for writers than a “some writers do this and it’s great” scenario
That's actually kind of ironic because Rick Riordan is a meticulous planner. He is a huge proponent of having a road map and having an outline for where each chapter will go.
Then you look at the "gardeners" like George rr Martian who let his story lead him and it's ballooned so out of control that it will never be finished :/
I'm not saying one is better in every single case but I disagree with the premise that "Books are much more interesting when authors allow their imaginations to veer away from their initial outlines" A lot of the books series I've enjoyed have been meticulously planned out.
Can you give me a source on that Riordan fact? Not that I disbelieve you, it's that his books are so inconsistent with details that the idea that he puts such care into his work is really funny.
He's described his process a couple times at panels, in interviews and in letters to fans asking for writing advice. A brief explanation is even on his [website](https://rickriordan.com/about/advice-for-writers/).
As a serial pantser, I 100% get the sentiment. I don’t outline because I end up feeling constrained and losing motivation. I keep a plot in my head, and if something changes or I get a new idea, oh well, I’ll just factor that all into my ever-changing mental roadmap
For me, while I do make an outline, some of the best bits are the parts I didn’t plan. It’s sort of like being a sculptor with a chisel. I plop down a bunch of words then realign them until I like the picture. I know what I’m trying to make, but sometimes the grain of the stone as I uncover deeper layers just screams for a plot diversion or enrichment that I didn’t see coming. Sometimes it’s an added romantic plot line, and sometimes it’s an unexpected severed member. I write dark fantasy, so yeah… :)
Outlines should not be written in stone. I put a lot of work into outlining mostly to work out problems ahead of time, but if I discover something new/different during the actual writing process then I adjust accordingly.
One must always be open and willing to go where the story takes you, which may not necessarily be where you planned to go.
I don’t believe any decent writer has everything planned from the start. Maybe they didn’t stray from the main plot, but surely things shifted as the story came together. As you develop your characters and story, you absolutely need to leave room for things to progress in ways you didn’t originally plan. If you try to force the story back into a rigid, planned plot, it’s going to *feel* rigid and forced.
I think the more important consideration is that they're better when the authors allow themselves to make changes to the narrative that clearly work better for the story. Too often authors get stuck on their initial ideas, and refuse to allow themselves to change details that would improve everything. Sometimes they prioritize their initial imaginative creativity over their rational and practical considerations down the line.
Well the thing is...it's all your ideas. So the question is: is past you a superior person and knew what they were talking about, or is current you the superior person and shouldn't have to listen to past you.
It always makes me question: why is going against "the plan" superior? Like why does it add more depth? How do you even know what the plan was when reading the final book?
I’m somewhere in between. I try to write outlines just so I have an idea of where I’m going and remember things I like, but I’m flexible if things have to change.
I'm a meticulous outliner but *of course* things change and diverge as I write. I assume that's true for most plotters. In that case I go back and update my outline. That gives me a chance to see the effect of the changes on the whole story and update whatever else needs it, like the calendar, the plot beats, settings etc
Not every writer can write that way, though. I'm naturally a pantser, but if I let myself run wild with an idea the first draft will turn into a disaster of half formed ideas and dangling plot threads and it takes a massive amount of my time to fix it in subsequent drafts.
I've since taken a more hybrid track where I outline my major plot points and pants my way between them, letting the characters lead the way. Character progression and subplots are developed on the fly, but I keep the story goals in sight so it's much easier to keep the plot moving forward.
It's also a lot easier to edit when your main issue is pacing and not having to tear the entire story down and rebuild it from chapter 1 to make it coherent because you introduced way too many elements and none of them fit together. Not that I would know from experience or anything...
What exactly do you think an outline *is*? It's not born on day 1 and then you never touch it again because it's sacrosanct.
The point of an outline is that when you come up with your story idea, you think about it, you say "oh this would be cool" "and then this happens" "this would be a banger ending", and some level of scenes in the middle. It means that you don't start out with a cool idea, begin writing, and see where it takes you (this is fine to do! it's just a different style of writing).
You can change your outline. You can update it. You can realize that some parts don't work and amend them. The Outline is not a prophecy descended from Up On High which can never be touched nor deviated from.
It's *just a work plan*. It's a guideline *you made up* because at the time you thought that was the best idea. It's not a jail cell.
You watched Percy Jackson? My God, that show is great. But I digress.
Honestly, yeah, but at the same time: planning is key to success. And if you ever off too much from the initial outline, you may risk becoming aimless
Some of my best ideas came when I derived from the outline. I don't think they are better than planned ideas though, just that things can work out even it wasn't planned initially.
This happens to me a lot. Usually I have plan for I want a chapter to go but it usually gets there in a different manner which changes how I want the personality that I had planned for each character. I don’t think of it as a bad thing per say, just that my story is evolving as I write it.
Yes. Everyone has their own writing methods, sure, but it doesn't sound very fun to me to plan everything out about a story, the characters, the setting, etc. In the process of writing, aren't you discovering things about your story that you didn't know? If you start out knowing where your story is going and where it's going to end, you're just going to spend your time rushing to get there. It's much more worthwhile, imo, to discover things along the way. Otherwise, you may as well just publish a book of plot points and call it a novel.
I have an outline, but it's basic, and the details can change while I'm writing. I just need to know what the major events are and sometimes how to get from one to the next, but other times I don't know and I may need to change an aspect of an major event to make it fit or work better. After I finish my story, I plan on adding to my outline what wasn't there in the original, probably in a different color, so I can see everything at a glance.
I always plan out the major plot points but my characters often have different ideas that I don’t know about until I get there. It’s a little like setting a GPS to go somewhere. I have the exact route in front of me but that doesn’t mean I can’t veer off the path along the way.
As a natural pantser, sure. I wrote my first novel with ZERO plot beforehand. I just knew it was set in Afghanistan. It was so much fun writing every day just to find out what happened next.
My 2nd, I had one specific scene I wanted to write towards in the middle. The rest, I just made up as I went. Also fun and an emotional roller coaster.
My 3rd, I outlined rigorously and did not deviate from it. I also kept my chapters within certain word limits. Rewarding, but not fun to write. It's a pretty decent read though, and I'm happy with the end product.
I am a hardcore plotter and will literally have pages and pages of notes, outlines, and such - but, even still, when I sit down to write, sometimes the story grows beyond whatever I outlined and all that's left of the original idea *is* the outline.
I'm not sure if it always makes for a better story but it is exciting when you can see a story grow into more than what you planned, characters and plots taking on their own lives.
For my current (first) novel that I'm working on, I sometimes wonder if I didn't outline ENOUGH. Like, I have a ten-page, scene-by-scene outline plus character notes, world building, and so on but it's all disjointed and not all in the same place or anything. And the outline is pretty rough despite being long, and there's no clarity in any of my notes on the timeline of events. How long between event A and event B, especially when the scenes change character perspective. Rewriting the outline and getting rigorous with the timeline are a couple of the first stops on my editing and rewriting plan.
That said, I did find myself deviating at times from the letter of my outline, discovering new things along the way. I even discovered there were a handful of plot holes in the outline itself... Is my story better for it? Probably, yes. But I expect to take a lot more rigorous approach from the outset in my next project.
Yes and no. I'm a planner and do very poorly with pantsing. It's stressful being forced to make up new content outside my outline and generally leaves me blocked for months. I only do this when feedback is that a section is weak and needs more substance. On the other hand, I've created really interesting characters this way. One was a childhood friend for my MC who keeps ending up being more relevant as the story goes on. Another is a cool pirate character who I'm going to have more fun with in the future, and another is possibly a one-off side character but one that I absolutely adore.
Sure but I think you’d be hard pressed to find any examples of final drafts that are exactly like their very first outline. Seems more like a universal experience for writers than a “some writers do this and it’s great” scenario
That's actually kind of ironic because Rick Riordan is a meticulous planner. He is a huge proponent of having a road map and having an outline for where each chapter will go. Then you look at the "gardeners" like George rr Martian who let his story lead him and it's ballooned so out of control that it will never be finished :/ I'm not saying one is better in every single case but I disagree with the premise that "Books are much more interesting when authors allow their imaginations to veer away from their initial outlines" A lot of the books series I've enjoyed have been meticulously planned out.
Can you give me a source on that Riordan fact? Not that I disbelieve you, it's that his books are so inconsistent with details that the idea that he puts such care into his work is really funny.
He's described his process a couple times at panels, in interviews and in letters to fans asking for writing advice. A brief explanation is even on his [website](https://rickriordan.com/about/advice-for-writers/).
Thanks!
As a serial pantser, I 100% get the sentiment. I don’t outline because I end up feeling constrained and losing motivation. I keep a plot in my head, and if something changes or I get a new idea, oh well, I’ll just factor that all into my ever-changing mental roadmap
For me, while I do make an outline, some of the best bits are the parts I didn’t plan. It’s sort of like being a sculptor with a chisel. I plop down a bunch of words then realign them until I like the picture. I know what I’m trying to make, but sometimes the grain of the stone as I uncover deeper layers just screams for a plot diversion or enrichment that I didn’t see coming. Sometimes it’s an added romantic plot line, and sometimes it’s an unexpected severed member. I write dark fantasy, so yeah… :)
No cuz when that happens I just change my outline. So my outline remains in sync and following
Outlines should not be written in stone. I put a lot of work into outlining mostly to work out problems ahead of time, but if I discover something new/different during the actual writing process then I adjust accordingly. One must always be open and willing to go where the story takes you, which may not necessarily be where you planned to go.
I have deleted almost every side plot because I realised it was distracting. I'm all for minimalism now.
I don’t believe any decent writer has everything planned from the start. Maybe they didn’t stray from the main plot, but surely things shifted as the story came together. As you develop your characters and story, you absolutely need to leave room for things to progress in ways you didn’t originally plan. If you try to force the story back into a rigid, planned plot, it’s going to *feel* rigid and forced.
I think the more important consideration is that they're better when the authors allow themselves to make changes to the narrative that clearly work better for the story. Too often authors get stuck on their initial ideas, and refuse to allow themselves to change details that would improve everything. Sometimes they prioritize their initial imaginative creativity over their rational and practical considerations down the line.
Well the thing is...it's all your ideas. So the question is: is past you a superior person and knew what they were talking about, or is current you the superior person and shouldn't have to listen to past you. It always makes me question: why is going against "the plan" superior? Like why does it add more depth? How do you even know what the plan was when reading the final book?
I’m somewhere in between. I try to write outlines just so I have an idea of where I’m going and remember things I like, but I’m flexible if things have to change.
I'm a meticulous outliner but *of course* things change and diverge as I write. I assume that's true for most plotters. In that case I go back and update my outline. That gives me a chance to see the effect of the changes on the whole story and update whatever else needs it, like the calendar, the plot beats, settings etc
Not every writer can write that way, though. I'm naturally a pantser, but if I let myself run wild with an idea the first draft will turn into a disaster of half formed ideas and dangling plot threads and it takes a massive amount of my time to fix it in subsequent drafts. I've since taken a more hybrid track where I outline my major plot points and pants my way between them, letting the characters lead the way. Character progression and subplots are developed on the fly, but I keep the story goals in sight so it's much easier to keep the plot moving forward. It's also a lot easier to edit when your main issue is pacing and not having to tear the entire story down and rebuild it from chapter 1 to make it coherent because you introduced way too many elements and none of them fit together. Not that I would know from experience or anything...
What exactly do you think an outline *is*? It's not born on day 1 and then you never touch it again because it's sacrosanct. The point of an outline is that when you come up with your story idea, you think about it, you say "oh this would be cool" "and then this happens" "this would be a banger ending", and some level of scenes in the middle. It means that you don't start out with a cool idea, begin writing, and see where it takes you (this is fine to do! it's just a different style of writing). You can change your outline. You can update it. You can realize that some parts don't work and amend them. The Outline is not a prophecy descended from Up On High which can never be touched nor deviated from. It's *just a work plan*. It's a guideline *you made up* because at the time you thought that was the best idea. It's not a jail cell.
You watched Percy Jackson? My God, that show is great. But I digress. Honestly, yeah, but at the same time: planning is key to success. And if you ever off too much from the initial outline, you may risk becoming aimless
Some of my best ideas came when I derived from the outline. I don't think they are better than planned ideas though, just that things can work out even it wasn't planned initially.
This happens to me a lot. Usually I have plan for I want a chapter to go but it usually gets there in a different manner which changes how I want the personality that I had planned for each character. I don’t think of it as a bad thing per say, just that my story is evolving as I write it.
Yes. Everyone has their own writing methods, sure, but it doesn't sound very fun to me to plan everything out about a story, the characters, the setting, etc. In the process of writing, aren't you discovering things about your story that you didn't know? If you start out knowing where your story is going and where it's going to end, you're just going to spend your time rushing to get there. It's much more worthwhile, imo, to discover things along the way. Otherwise, you may as well just publish a book of plot points and call it a novel.
I have an outline, but it's basic, and the details can change while I'm writing. I just need to know what the major events are and sometimes how to get from one to the next, but other times I don't know and I may need to change an aspect of an major event to make it fit or work better. After I finish my story, I plan on adding to my outline what wasn't there in the original, probably in a different color, so I can see everything at a glance.
I always plan out the major plot points but my characters often have different ideas that I don’t know about until I get there. It’s a little like setting a GPS to go somewhere. I have the exact route in front of me but that doesn’t mean I can’t veer off the path along the way.
As a natural pantser, sure. I wrote my first novel with ZERO plot beforehand. I just knew it was set in Afghanistan. It was so much fun writing every day just to find out what happened next. My 2nd, I had one specific scene I wanted to write towards in the middle. The rest, I just made up as I went. Also fun and an emotional roller coaster. My 3rd, I outlined rigorously and did not deviate from it. I also kept my chapters within certain word limits. Rewarding, but not fun to write. It's a pretty decent read though, and I'm happy with the end product.
I am a hardcore plotter and will literally have pages and pages of notes, outlines, and such - but, even still, when I sit down to write, sometimes the story grows beyond whatever I outlined and all that's left of the original idea *is* the outline. I'm not sure if it always makes for a better story but it is exciting when you can see a story grow into more than what you planned, characters and plots taking on their own lives.
I have a general plan but usually whatever sounds good at the moment I’ll tweak stuff. Sometimes drastically.
For my current (first) novel that I'm working on, I sometimes wonder if I didn't outline ENOUGH. Like, I have a ten-page, scene-by-scene outline plus character notes, world building, and so on but it's all disjointed and not all in the same place or anything. And the outline is pretty rough despite being long, and there's no clarity in any of my notes on the timeline of events. How long between event A and event B, especially when the scenes change character perspective. Rewriting the outline and getting rigorous with the timeline are a couple of the first stops on my editing and rewriting plan. That said, I did find myself deviating at times from the letter of my outline, discovering new things along the way. I even discovered there were a handful of plot holes in the outline itself... Is my story better for it? Probably, yes. But I expect to take a lot more rigorous approach from the outset in my next project.